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Metalthrasher442
08-03-2009, 01:20 PM
Hey I just wanted to point out how hot Chris Getz is right now and he is totally over shadowed by Gordon Beckham. Chris' average is now above .270 which I think is awesome, especially because a lot of people don't believe him to be an every day player.

Just wondering if you guys think he is going to keep this pace up and what you think he's going to do next season.

DaveFeelsRight
08-03-2009, 01:24 PM
i think he'll finish the season around the .280 mark.

WhiteSox1989
08-03-2009, 01:26 PM
I went from REALLY like Getz and pulling for him to get the 2B job, to kind of not liking him because of a couple really lazy plays, to liking him again.

They had a couple stats displayed at Saturdays game about Chris. And most were very impressive. I think there was something about him being 94% successful at his stolen base attempts.

soxfan21
08-03-2009, 01:27 PM
I like the speed that he brings to the table, especially at the bottom of the order. I hope he is here for the next few years, because I think he could develop into a pretty good ball player. Between Getz, Alexei, and Beckham, we could have a pretty good infield for years to come once their defensive skills develop a little bit more and they cut back on some of the mental errors that they have had during this season.

SoxSpeed22
08-03-2009, 01:27 PM
Getz has been making good progress with his bat. He has shown the ability to hit line drives. He has also shown the ability to hit the ball the other way. I would like to see him be able to bunt for hits.
The biggest problem is his glove. If anything is going to cost us the division, it's our defense up the middle. His bat is valuable enough to keep him in the lineup, but I would rather see him in left field next season (If Pods does not come back and Quentin moves to right field). But, he is young and can figure it out.

manders_01
08-03-2009, 01:33 PM
They showed a stat during one of the games this weekend - and of course I can't remember it - but it was something like he was batting well over .300 in the past 20 or 25 games. I feel ridiculous posting when I can't remember one thing about it but I did so because I remember when it was shown, it made a very good impression (and I was already impressed by Chris).

DumpJerry
08-03-2009, 01:36 PM
Chris is ranked first in several offensive categories among rookies according to the White Sox scoreboard.

He is working out nicely.

voodoochile
08-03-2009, 01:38 PM
I'm comfortable enough with him to see him starting next year too.

mantis1212
08-03-2009, 01:39 PM
Does anyone know where I can pull up rookie rankings for various statistical measures?

The reason I ask is on the Saturday broadcast FOX displayed a stat showing Getz was ranked 1 or 2 for rookie in hits, abs, runs, etc which seemed surprising.

If both Getz and Beckham continue what they are doing they may be voted 1-2 in rookie of the year voting.

slavko
08-03-2009, 01:45 PM
He just looks like a ballplayer and is a ballplayer. Unlike Danny Richar who had the first part but not the second. He looked good to me at the end of '08, wish he hadn't been hurt. Gotta love speed and line drive hitting.

hawkjt
08-03-2009, 01:46 PM
They showed a stat during one of the games this weekend - and of course I can't remember it - but it was something like he was batting well over .300 in the past 20 or 25 games. I feel ridiculous posting when I can't remember one thing about it but I did so because I remember when it was shown, it made a very good impression (and I was already impressed by Chris).


In the last 25 games he has started, Getz is 32 of 87...which is over .365

Between Gordon and Chris, the last 20-25 games...they have been hitting close to a combined .380+ ...amazing. Keep it going,boys.

SoxGirl4Life
08-03-2009, 01:49 PM
In the last 25 games he has started, Getz is 32 of 87...which is over .365

Between Gordon and Chris, the last 20-25 games...they have been hitting close to a combined .380+ ...amazing. Keep it going,boys.

I love them both. The last line of this post actually gave me goosebumps!

asindc
08-03-2009, 01:54 PM
I think some of Getz's detractors here sometimes forget that he is a rookie.

wmusox9
08-03-2009, 01:56 PM
Does anyone know where I can pull up rookie rankings for various statistical measures?

The reason I ask is on the Saturday broadcast FOX displayed a stat showing Getz was ranked 1 or 2 for rookie in hits, abs, runs, etc which seemed surprising.

If both Getz and Beckham continue what they are doing they may be voted 1-2 in rookie of the year voting.

http://espn.go.com/mlb/stats/batting/_/position/rookie/minpa/200

Madvora
08-03-2009, 02:12 PM
I think some of Getz's detractors here sometimes forget that he is a rookie.
Exactly. What do people really expect from this guy? A lot of major league clubs would love to have a guy hitting in the .270s, rookie or not.

The Immigrant
08-03-2009, 02:18 PM
If both Getz and Beckham continue what they are doing they may be voted 1-2 in rookie of the year voting.

Maybe if you ignore the rookie pitchers. However, Niemann and Romero are having pretty solid seasons.

cws05champ
08-03-2009, 02:41 PM
In the last 25 games he has started, Getz is 32 of 87...which is over .365

Between Gordon and Chris, the last 20-25 games...they have been hitting close to a combined .380+ ...amazing. Keep it going,boys.
If you look at their ranks among rookies with at least 150 AB's here's where they rank:
Beckham: 1st in Avg, 1st in OPS, 1st in RBI, 1st in 2B, 6th in Runs, 4th in total bases, 3rd HR, 2nd in XBH( 2nd to Getz)
Getz: 5th in Avg, 5th in OPS, 1st in Runs, 3rd in SB, 3rd in RBI, 1st 2B, 1st in total bases, 1st in XBH

Pretty exciting....

DumpJerry
08-03-2009, 02:43 PM
I was impressed with Reimold when the Orioles were in town. Too bad he's playing in a crap team. I think he'll still finish in the top 5 if he is not injured.

Madvora
08-03-2009, 02:43 PM
If you look at their ranks among rookies with at least 150 AB's here's where they rank:
Beckham: 1st in Avg, 1st in OPS, 1st in RBI, 1st in 2B, 6th in Runs, 4th in total bases, 3rd HR, 2nd in XBH( 2nd to Getz)
Getz: 5th in Avg, 5th in OPS, 1st in Runs, 3rd in SB, 3rd in RBI, 1st 2B, 1st in total bases, 1st in XBH

Pretty exciting....
You have them both as first in doubles.

A. Cavatica
08-03-2009, 02:44 PM
Of the AL rookie hitters right now, Gordon is #1 in OPS but Getz is #4. The #2-3 guys are Reimold (BAL) and Gardner (NYY). So it's obvious that the ROY will be the Yankee, right?

fuzzy_patters
08-03-2009, 02:48 PM
You have them both as first in doubles.

They each have 17 doubles. They're tied.

bigdommer
08-03-2009, 03:30 PM
Getz brings 3 things that this team has had very little of over the past few years: lefty bat, contact, and speed. When everyone else is doing their job, Getz fits in just nicely.

I think most of the pessimism at WSI about Getz earlier this year is because he was playing on a disappoint team in an infield with a struggling TCM and a miserable fields. Since TCM heated up (until the injury) and Gordon started raking, Getz is suddenly a nice fit in this group.

Also, if Pods lands a deal in 2010 somewhere else, Getz could possibly slide into the leadoff role.

AnkleSox
08-03-2009, 04:10 PM
If you look at their ranks among rookies with at least 150 AB's here's where they rank:
Beckham: 1st in Avg, 1st in OPS, 1st in RBI, 1st in 2B, 6th in Runs, 4th in total bases, 3rd HR, 2nd in XBH( 2nd to Getz)
Getz: 5th in Avg, 5th in OPS, 1st in Runs, 3rd in SB, 3rd in RBI, 1st 2B, 1st in total bases, 1st in XBH

Pretty exciting....

What makes Beckham's stats even more impressive is the fact that he didn't get called up until June. 1st in RBI, 1st in 2b, 2nd in XBH...those aren't averaged statistics, they're all (supposed to be) built up over time :o:

Lip Man 1
08-03-2009, 04:17 PM
First off let me be clear on something. I think Chris is a fine major league player. My biggest issue is the fact that despite playing ball at a major university (Michigan) and having spent time in the Sox minor league system he often still doesn't know what to do at 2nd base.

As Daver will tell you, there's more to baseball than just hitting.

Again I think he's a solid hitter, has great speed but until he "gets it" defensively, he's not the complete answer.

Depending on if the Sox pursue Chone Figgins this off season, and if so, where they'd try to play him (3rd? CF?? 2nd???) you could see Getz as a super ultility guy next season. And there's nothing wrong with this in my opinion, his speed off the bench in late innings could be a serious difference maker. He'd improve the bench dramatically and Ozzie can still work him into the lineup a few times each week.

If he does somehow get what he's supposed to be doing in the field, then he's certainly the answer at 2nd, but that's still a real work in progress and we don't know how it'll turn out.

Lip

Harry Chappas
08-03-2009, 04:19 PM
I'm comfortable enough with him to see him starting next year too.

Should this be in teal? I'd be more than "comfortable" with him at 2nd next year - I'd be excited. His arrow is pointing up and he could quietly become a .300 hitter/40 SB guy before all is said and done.

Zisk77
08-03-2009, 04:20 PM
Getz brings 3 things that this team has had very little of over the past few years: lefty bat, contact, and speed. When everyone else is doing their job, Getz fits in just nicely.

I think most of the pessimism at WSI about Getz earlier this year is because he was playing on a disappoint team in an infield with a struggling TCM and a miserable fields. Since TCM heated up (until the injury) and Gordon started raking, Getz is suddenly a nice fit in this group.

Also, if Pods lands a deal in 2010 somewhere else, Getz could possibly slide into the leadoff role.

He could indeed. I would prefer the sox get someone like figgins or crawford to hit leadoff and hit getz in the 2 spot with Bacon 3 or 5.

Also don't forget porcello in the ROY voting.

oeo
08-03-2009, 04:24 PM
First off let me be clear on something. I think Chris is a fine major league player. My biggest issue is the fact that despite playing ball at a major university (Michigan) and having spent time in the Sox minor league system he often still doesn't know what to do at 2nd base.

As Daver will tell you, there's more to baseball than just hitting.

Again I think he's a solid hitter, has great speed but until he "gets it" defensively, he's not the complete answer.

Depending on if the Sox pursue Chone Figgins this off season, and if so, where they'd try to play him (3rd? CF?? 2nd???) you could see Getz as a super ultility guy next season. And there's nothing wrong with this in my opinion, his speed off the bench in late innings could be a seriouis difference maker. He'd improve the bench dramatically and Ozzie can still work him into the lineup a few times each week.

If he does somehow get what he's supposed to be doing in the field, then he's certainly the answer at 2nd, but that's still a real work in progress and we don't know how it'll turn out.

Lip

Getz can't be a 'super utility' guy because he doesn't have the tools to do it. He's only made two boneheaded mistakes that I can think of this year. People act like it's happening more often than not, and that's not true.

Harry Chappas
08-03-2009, 04:32 PM
Getz can't be a 'super utility' guy because he doesn't have the tools to do it. He's only made two boneheaded mistakes that I can think of this year. People act like it's happening more often than not, and that's not true.

Do you mean he is (potentially) TOO good to be relegated to "super utility" guy? From what I've seen in this, his rookie year, I'd say he has the tools to become a potential all-star, especially since middle infielders' numbers should shrink post-steroid era.

wmusox9
08-03-2009, 04:36 PM
[/B]

He could indeed. I would prefer the sox get someone like figgins or crawford to hit leadoff and hit getz in the 2 spot with Bacon 3 or 5.

Also don't forget porcello in the ROY voting.



Crawford will not be a free agent. He has a club option which I cant see any reason the team wouldn't pick it up. If your thinking a trade he would cost us way too much.

voodoochile
08-03-2009, 04:45 PM
Should this be in teal? I'd be more than "comfortable" with him at 2nd next year - I'd be excited. His arrow is pointing up and he could quietly become a .300 hitter/40 SB guy before all is said and done.

I hope you are right. I don't have that much faith in him, but am willing to see more as a starter. I certainly don't feel the need to upgrade the IF next year. In fact, I'd sit pat with all 8 position players and not worry about it.

So, no, no teal implied.

Metalthrasher442
08-03-2009, 06:41 PM
You know what's awesome about Getz and his steals this season. The percentage of him not getting caught is so well that it's like he only goes if he knows he's going to make it.. which is awesome.

If he can continue to hover around a .270 average than he will have out hit my expectations. It's also nice having a guy that can triple!

It's Time
08-03-2009, 07:05 PM
Not only that, but we're comparing him to Beckham. I think Getz has more than held is own.

Frater Perdurabo
08-03-2009, 07:07 PM
I am pleased with Getz. Barring a collapse, I think he has earned the 2B job for 2010. Moving forward, I think Getz will be good enough to hit second, with Beckham hitting third. Then, sign Chone Figgins to lead off, start in CF and also back up at 2B and 3B. If that's the case, I actually could see a scenario where for the sake of lefty/righty balance, the Sox decline Dye's option but offer arbitration to Thome, move Quentin to RF, and re-sign Pods to play LF and hit ninth:

Figgins, Getz, Beckham, Thome, TCQ, Paulie, AJ, TCM, Pods

Another alternative would be to let both Thome and Dye go, and sign Adam Dunn to DH. In either case I think it's important to have a LH bat in the middle of the order.

voodoochile
08-03-2009, 07:59 PM
I am pleased with Getz. Barring a collapse, I think he has earned the 2B job for 2010. Moving forward, I think Getz will be good enough to hit second, with Beckham hitting third. Then, sign Chone Figgins to lead off, start in CF and also back up at 2B and 3B. If that's the case, I actually could see a scenario where for the sake of lefty/righty balance, the Sox decline Dye's option but offer arbitration to Thome, move Quentin to RF, and re-sign Pods to play LF and hit ninth:

Figgins, Getz, Beckham, Thome, TCQ, Paulie, AJ, TCM, Pods

Another alternative would be to let both Thome and Dye go, and sign Adam Dunn to DH. In either case I think it's important to have a LH bat in the middle of the order.
Arbitration for Thome is a minimum $11M contract offer. Why not just keep Dye. He's more productive and can still play the field.

oeo
08-03-2009, 08:00 PM
Do you mean he is (potentially) TOO good to be relegated to "super utility" guy? From what I've seen in this, his rookie year, I'd say he has the tools to become a potential all-star, especially since middle infielders' numbers should shrink post-steroid era.

I mean he can't play anything but second base. He doesn't have the arm or the range to play elsewhere, nor the bat to play say LF.

CWSpalehoseCWS
08-03-2009, 08:02 PM
Getz has done a very nice job at 2B. He may not be the best fielder, but I think what he has done so far with the bat and on the base paths is more than what was expected of him. He definitely has the starting job at 2B next year unless the Sox go out and get a good bat/veteran to lead off and just so happens to play 2B. He has a spot on this team though, that's for sure.

Frater Perdurabo
08-03-2009, 08:15 PM
Arbitration for Thome is a minimum $11M contract offer. Why not just keep Dye. He's more productive and can still play the field.

I agree that Dye is a better, more complete player at this stage. But I do worry about the middle of the lineup being too "right-handed." We need a lefty power bat in there.

manders_01
08-03-2009, 09:02 PM
In the last 25 games he has started, Getz is 32 of 87...which is over .365

Between Gordon and Chris, the last 20-25 games...they have been hitting close to a combined .380+ ...amazing. Keep it going,boys.

Thank you. I clearly wasn't going to remember that one! :D:

voodoochile
08-03-2009, 10:11 PM
I agree that Dye is a better, more complete player at this stage. But I do worry about the middle of the lineup being too "right-handed." We need a lefty power bat in there.

Yeah, but there's just no way in heck you can justify paying that much money for Thome, IMO. He's already showing signs of losing bat speed and his back isn't going to last forever.

Metalthrasher442
08-03-2009, 10:12 PM
Well this series with the Angels is going to be pretty big and we'll see if they can keep rolling. This stretch is the most I've been pumped for some White Sox baseball all season besides opening day.

Konerko05
08-04-2009, 12:01 AM
Getz is a nice player. He is doing just about what I thought he would do at the ML level.

If the Sox really plan on keeping Beckham at 3B regardless, I have no problem with Getz as the starting 2B for the next couple years.

He has the ability to leadoff which is very intriguing. He is going to have to keep his AVG around .300 though.

I love his approach at the plate. Yeah, I have a thing for hitters who can go opposite field with ease. Getz and Beckham are already professional hitters in their rookie seasons.

LITTLE NELL
08-04-2009, 05:20 AM
The guy is a rookie.
He has 4 months of MLB experience under his belt.
If he works at it he will become more than adequate with the glove.
He will become a .300 hitter.
He IS our second baseman now and for years to come.

Frater Perdurabo
08-04-2009, 06:58 AM
Yeah, but there's just no way in heck you can justify paying that much money for Thome, IMO. He's already showing signs of losing bat speed and his back isn't going to last forever.

How about Bobby Abreu? He's not a prototypical cleanup hitter, but he still can get on base, steal bases, hit for high average, and hit some homers too:

Figgins, Getz, Beckham, Abreu, TCQ, Paulie, AJ, TCM, Pods

Then you rotate the DH among Abreu, Quentin, Paulie and Pods. Essentially we're letting Dye and Thome go, and signing Figgins and Abreu.

Anyway, back on topic, I think Getz and Beckham will be a great 2-3 combo.

ode to veeck
08-04-2009, 07:24 AM
The guy is a rookie.
He has 4 months of MLB experience under his belt.
If he works at it he will become more than adequate with the glove.
He will become a .300 hitter.
He IS our second baseman now and for years to come.

I couldn't have said it better.

voodoochile
08-04-2009, 09:01 AM
How about Bobby Abreu? He's not a prototypical cleanup hitter, but he still can get on base, steal bases, hit for high average, and hit some homers too:

Figgins, Getz, Beckham, Abreu, TCQ, Paulie, AJ, TCM, Pods

Then you rotate the DH among Abreu, Quentin, Paulie and Pods. Essentially we're letting Dye and Thome go, and signing Figgins and Abreu.

Anyway, back on topic, I think Getz and Beckham will be a great 2-3 combo.

Well I think you'd bat Pods second and Getz 9th in that lineup at least to start the season, but don't really understand the need to change things simply to change things.

You want to replace Thome? Trade for Dunn, resign Pods and leave it at that.

Ron Karkovice
08-04-2009, 09:03 AM
Does anyone know of a good website to compare this season's rookie numbers for Getz, Beckham, and others in the AL/NL?

When I try to do it at ESPN.com it comes up with like 3 rookies' stats.

voodoochile
08-04-2009, 09:10 AM
Does anyone know of a good website to compare this season's rookie numbers for Getz, Beckham, and others in the AL/NL?

When I try to do it at ESPN.com it comes up with like 3 rookies' stats.

There's one earlier in this thread, scroll up...

Ron Karkovice
08-04-2009, 09:17 AM
There's one earlier in this thread, scroll up...

Thanks. I was on "Qualified" rookie stats instead of "Unqualified" so thats why I could only pull up a few players before.

thedudeabides
08-04-2009, 09:38 AM
First off let me be clear on something. I think Chris is a fine major league player. My biggest issue is the fact that despite playing ball at a major university (Michigan) and having spent time in the Sox minor league system he often still doesn't know what to do at 2nd base.

As Daver will tell you, there's more to baseball than just hitting.

Again I think he's a solid hitter, has great speed but until he "gets it" defensively, he's not the complete answer.

Depending on if the Sox pursue Chone Figgins this off season, and if so, where they'd try to play him (3rd? CF?? 2nd???) you could see Getz as a super ultility guy next season. And there's nothing wrong with this in my opinion, his speed off the bench in late innings could be a serious difference maker. He'd improve the bench dramatically and Ozzie can still work him into the lineup a few times each week.

If he does somehow get what he's supposed to be doing in the field, then he's certainly the answer at 2nd, but that's still a real work in progress and we don't know how it'll turn out.

Lip

The only way for him to eliminate these errors is experience. Playing less will only slow that process down. I know he played at a major college and in the minors, but the speed and stage are much grander at this level. All rookies make these types of mistakes. Everyone just needs to have some patience with these guys. Nobody comes into the league as a complete player.

jabrch
08-04-2009, 09:44 AM
Who was making the arguement that after a 1/3 of a season they were certain that Getz is not a major league starter? Where are those people today?

ode to veeck
08-04-2009, 10:54 AM
Who was making the arguement that after a 1/3 of a season they were certain that Getz is not a major league starter? Where are those people today?

the same type of folks who claimed Joe Crede's HRs didn't count lol

munchman33
08-04-2009, 11:00 AM
Getz has no power and average speed for his position. He really needs to hit .320 or have an OBP above .400 to be considered anything other than stopgap.

Don't get me wrong, I'm happy with the job he's done. But there's also a LOT of room for improvement at that position.

pdimas
08-04-2009, 11:00 AM
Thanks. I was on "Qualified" rookie stats instead of "Unqualified" so thats why I could only pull up a few players before.


http://espn.go.com/mlb/stats/batting/_/position/rookie/league/al/minpa/200

Try this link it just shows the top 7 rookies with at least 179 PA. Hearing so much about Elvis Andrus I was shocked to see that Getz's numbers were better in every category with the exception of homeruns (elvis has 2 more) and obp with elvis besting Getz by .003. The future is so bright :cool:

munchman33
08-04-2009, 11:07 AM
http://espn.go.com/mlb/stats/batting/_/position/rookie/league/al/minpa/200

Try this link it just shows the top 7 rookies with at least 179 PA. Hearing so much about Elvis Andrus I was shocked to see that Getz's numbers were better in every category with the exception of homeruns (elvis has 2 more) and obp with elvis besting Getz by .003. The future is so bright :cool:

The Andrus hype was based mostly on his defense. Also, Andrus is 5 years younger than Getz.

ode to veeck
08-04-2009, 11:10 AM
Getz has no power and average speed for his position. He really needs to hit .320 or have an OBP above .400 to be considered anything other than stopgap.

Don't get me wrong, I'm happy with the job he's done. But there's also a LOT of room for improvement at that position.

:bong:


yeah, when is hitting .300 or stealing bases at 80% / attempt stopgap!?!

WhiteSoxFTW
08-04-2009, 11:26 AM
I think some of Getz's detractors here sometimes forget that he is a rookie.

Exactly. I think he is going to turn into a pretty decent ballplayer, whether he is with the White Sox or not.

voodoochile
08-04-2009, 11:27 AM
Getz has no power and average speed for his position. He really needs to hit .320 or have an OBP above .400 to be considered anything other than stopgap.

Don't get me wrong, I'm happy with the job he's done. But there's also a LOT of room for improvement at that position.

That's overly dramatic especially with the steroid era winding down a bit and power numbers falling through the floor all across the league.

He's at least a fine #9 hitter if he continues to do what he is doing. His OPS is above .700 and he's a rookie with an insane steal percentage.

Time to change your internal model of MLB, Munch.

And again, I'm not completely sold on Getz, but if he can continue to do what he's doing, he's more than adequate to be a starter...

Paulwny
08-04-2009, 11:31 AM
I'm actually impressed with Getz' ability to "hang in there" on dp's when a runner is bearing down on him and complete the dp.

ode to veeck
08-04-2009, 11:32 AM
That's overly dramatic especially with the steroid era winding down a bit and power numbers falling through the floor all across the league.

He's at least a fine #9 hitter if he continues to do what he is doing. His OPS is above .700 and he's a rookie with an insane steal percentage.

Time to change your internal model of MLB, Munch.

And again, I'm not completely sold on Getz, but if he can continue to do what he's doing, he's more than adequate to be a starter...


what has he been hitting like .375 the last month or so

voodoochile
08-04-2009, 11:36 AM
what has he been hitting like .375 the last month or so

I love the fact he is talking to Scotty Pods (who by Munch's standards isn't worth having on the team either as his OBP is only .357 and his power numbers are comparable to Getz's).

Just to be clear, Pods has 17 more total bases 1 less SB and 8 more CS than Getz in 43 more PA (roughly - didn't factor in HBP).

hawkjt
08-04-2009, 11:37 AM
Getz has no power and average speed for his position. He really needs to hit .320 or have an OBP above .400 to be considered anything other than stopgap.

Don't get me wrong, I'm happy with the job he's done. But there's also a LOT of room for improvement at that position.


Currently the top hitting 2nd baseman in the AL is Cano at .304-19th in the league....If getz was at .320 ,he would be 6th in the AL in hitting.

So, if he is below the top 6 hitters in the league, he is strictly a stopgap for ???? other 2nd basemen hitting far below that I presume?
Average speed? Who cares if he continues to steal 17 of 18 bases...Alexei might be a hair faster but not close as a base runner.

WhiteSoxFTW
08-04-2009, 11:41 AM
The guy is a rookie.
He has 4 months of MLB experience under his belt.
If he works at it he will become more than adequate with the glove.
He will become a .300 hitter.
He IS our second baseman now and for years to come.

Thank you for summing it up for me. As, you can tell from my signature, I've definitely been a Chris Getz fan for a while now. I thought he had what it took when people were still ragging on him. I'm really happy that at least part of our "youth movement"(Getz/Beckham) is working out.:bandance:

jabrch
08-04-2009, 11:42 AM
That's overly dramatic especially with the steroid era winding down a bit and power numbers falling through the floor all across the league.

He's at least a fine #9 hitter if he continues to do what he is doing. His OPS is above .700 and he's a rookie with an insane steal percentage.

Time to change your internal model of MLB, Munch.

And again, I'm not completely sold on Getz, but if he can continue to do what he's doing, he's more than adequate to be a starter...

under 300 ABs into his career gang... He's already far outpacing the beloved Brian Anderson. He's blowing away the career of Jeremy Reed. He's a better ballplayer so far even than the 5 tool, lock HOFer in Chris Young.

Getz may never hit for power - but for a rookie, making the league minimum, he had a hell of a July. Drawing any conclusions on him at this point, is silly and naive.

Chris may be the weakest link (I know you could argue a few other guys - but that's a different thread) right now amongst our starters. That's damn good. You won't have an all-star at every position. That's silly to set the bar there. So I evaluate a player based on what I am expecting him to do. For Getz, if he plays decent D (which he does) and hits over .275/.325 while stealing a few bags, he's at least contributing positively. If he has another month like he did in July (.324/.373/.441) he would be far exceeding expectations.

jabrch
08-04-2009, 11:47 AM
I'm actually impressed with Getz' ability to "hang in there" on dp's when a runner is bearing down on him and complete the dp.


Me too. He's not Roberto Alomar - but if the bar is set that high to play 2B for us, then we will constantly be miserable. From where I sit, he is at least average, if not better defensively. I can't think of too many great defensive 2Bs this year in the AL. Pedroia is above average. Jose Lopez is good. But is there a clear cut best defensive 2B in the AL this year? I am not saying Getz deserves a GG or that a GG means anything, but I am saying that his D is certainly passable.

munchman33
08-04-2009, 11:49 AM
:bong:


yeah, when is hitting .300 or stealing bases at 80% / attempt stopgap!?!

Um...he's hitting .270 with a .320 obp. And a high stolen base percentage does not mean great speed (or a particularly large amount of stolen bases for that matter).

Seriously. Dude's slugging like .380 and getting on base at an average pace. Those are bench numbers. He's the definition of stopgap.

munchman33
08-04-2009, 11:52 AM
I love the fact he is talking to Scotty Pods (who by Munch's standards isn't worth having on the team either as his OBP is only .357 and his power numbers are comparable to Getz's).

Just to be clear, Pods has 17 more total bases 1 less SB and 8 more CS than Getz in 43 more PA (roughly - didn't factor in HBP).

Stolen bases do not equal speed. Pods would run laps around Getz.

.320 OBP and .380 slugging. You've got to be joking if that's acceptable for an everyday starter, steroid era or not.

asindc
08-04-2009, 11:52 AM
Um...he's hitting .270 with a .320 obp. And a high stolen base percentage does not mean great speed (or a particularly large amount of stolen bases for that matter).

Seriously. Dude's slugging like .380 and getting on base at an average pace. Those are bench numbers. He's the definition of stopgap.

Ok, I'll bite: What is the minimum level of performance for a rookie 2B that would make him more than a stopgap?

munchman33
08-04-2009, 11:54 AM
Currently the top hitting 2nd baseman in the AL is Cano at .304-19th in the league....If getz was at .320 ,he would be 6th in the AL in hitting.

So, if he is below the top 6 hitters in the league, he is strictly a stopgap for ???? other 2nd basemen hitting far below that I presume?
Average speed? Who cares if he continues to steal 17 of 18 bases...Alexei might be a hair faster but not close as a base runner.

Robinson Cano isn't slugging .380. My point is if you're gonna slug .380 and be an MLB regular, you've got to be an on base machine or have ridiculous blazing speed.

munchman33
08-04-2009, 11:55 AM
Ok, I'll bite: What is the minimum level of performance for a rookie 2B that would make him more than a stopgap?

Slugging above .400 would help. And while Getz is a rookie, lets not forget he's also 25 years old. This is pretty much make or break for him on whether or not he has a major league career, and what role he fills.

voodoochile
08-04-2009, 12:08 PM
Stolen bases do not equal speed. Pods would run laps around Getz.

.320 OBP and .380 slugging. You've got to be joking if that's acceptable for an everyday starter, steroid era or not.

Getz has no problem scoring from second on singles or going first to third on singles and he currently leads the team in triples and is tied for second in doubles while leading the team in stolen bases and stolen base percentage (the latter by a HUGE margin).

You act like he's slow. That's just ridiculous. In addition, raw speed does not equal successful baseball speed which is judged 90 feet at a time generally. Getz is plenty fast for the needs of the game. Claiming otherwise is simply silly.

voodoochile
08-04-2009, 12:11 PM
Robinson Cano isn't slugging .380. My point is if you're gonna slug .380 and be an MLB regular, you've got to be an on base machine or have ridiculous blazing speed.

So if he had managed to grab 1 extra base a week this year as a direct result of his hitting, he'd be adequate to keep his job? Kind of a fine line, there, Munch...

...
08-04-2009, 12:26 PM
Um...he's hitting .270 with a .320 obp. And a high stolen base percentage does not mean great speed (or a particularly large amount of stolen bases for that matter).

Seriously. Dude's slugging like .380 and getting on base at an average pace. Those are bench numbers. He's the definition of stopgap.

No, he's the definition of a ROOKIE with 300 plate appearances under his belt. Get a life.

ode to veeck
08-04-2009, 12:28 PM
Um...he's hitting .270 with a .320 obp. And a high stolen base percentage does not mean great speed (or a particularly large amount of stolen bases for that matter).

Seriously. Dude's slugging like .380 and getting on base at an average pace. Those are bench numbers. He's the definition of stopgap.

Dude, ignore the 1st 2 months of the season, it's his 1st time in the show and he's hitting way over .300 the last 5 or 6 weeks and also hitting in a lot of clutch situations. Who cares how fast he is if he can steal bases at will (like 2nd then 3rd the other day) and scores every time from 2nd on a single. We have plenty of Sox we can name to prove speed and no baserunning skills are useless. Getz is more than a decent baserunner and base stealer. Get a clue or go back to sabremetrics stick your head in the sand dark ages.

munchman33
08-04-2009, 12:38 PM
So if he had managed to grab 1 extra base a week this year as a direct result of his hitting, he'd be adequate to keep his job? Kind of a fine line, there, Munch...

:?: Getting an extra base hit every week of a season is a tall order.

I'll give you the functional speed argument, as I tend to agree in most cases with it. But the guy doesn't get on base. He's like Brandon Phillips, only without the power. And when I say without the power, I literally mean all of the power.

I think Getz has shown he's good enough to be on a major league ballclub. But there's just not enough there. He doesn't hit for average, he doesn't hit for power, he doesn't get on base. He's got a few tools, but people are so focused on what he's done right that they're completely ignoring how obviously flawed he is.

Hmmm...people are lauding a guy who can't hit. I think we found Brian's replacement. :(:

munchman33
08-04-2009, 12:40 PM
Dude, ignore the 1st 2 months of the season, it's his 1st time in the show and he's hitting way over .300 the last 5 or 6 weeks and also hitting in a lot of clutch situations. Who cares how fast he is if he can steal bases at will (like 2nd then 3rd the other day) and scores every time from 2nd on a single. We have plenty of Sox we can name to prove speed and no baserunning skills are useless. Getz is more than a decent baserunner and base stealer. Get a clue or go back to sabremetrics stick your head in the sand dark ages.


Here's an idea. Let's ignore all the at bats Getz didn't get a hit in. In those at bats, he's hitting 1.000!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Posts like this are exactly how the legend of BA was created.

jabrch
08-04-2009, 12:43 PM
So if he had managed to grab 1 extra base a week this year as a direct result of his hitting, he'd be adequate to keep his job? Kind of a fine line, there, Munch...


That's not a "fine" line. That's ignorant of the realities of baseball since that 1 extra base per week results in...hell...fewer than a handful of additional runs scored over the course of 162.

It's stupid. I don't give a damn what the slg% is of my 9th best hitter, who plays decent MI defense and runs relatively well. He's hitting well. He fields well. He runs well. SLG%? Jeez...

oeo
08-04-2009, 12:45 PM
Here's an idea. Let's ignore all the at bats Getz didn't get a hit in. In those at bats, he's hitting 1.000!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Posts like this are exactly how the legend of BA was created.

You can't ignore AB's. However, other than a terribe May, he has been very good for us, especially the last month and a half or so.

voodoochile
08-04-2009, 12:46 PM
That's not a "fine" line. That's ignorant of the realities of baseball since that 1 extra base per week results in...hell...fewer than a handful of additional runs scored over the course of 162.

It's stupid. I don't give a damn what the slg% is of my 9th best hitter, who plays decent MI defense and runs relatively well.

What's even sillier is that Getz has had one bad month and the rest of them he has managed to reach Munch's magical slg% number of .400.

Since the ASG he's been on a serious tear.

http://espn.go.com/mlb/players/splits?playerId=29207

munchman33
08-04-2009, 12:48 PM
What's even sillier is that Getz has had one bad month and the rest of them he has managed to reach Munch's magical slg% number of .400.

Since the ASG he's been on a serious tear.

http://espn.go.com/mlb/players/splits?playerId=29207

That's great. You think he'll keep it up for the rest of his career? It seems like he's just hot to me.

I LIKE CHRIS GETZ. I just don't see him as the long term answer at 2B. We're good enough this year to cover his lack of production. Next year? Probably not.

voodoochile
08-04-2009, 12:50 PM
That's great. You think he'll keep it up for the rest of his career? It seems like he's just hot to me.

I LIKE CHRIS GETZ. I just don't see him as the long term answer at 2B. We're good enough this year to cover his lack of production. Next year? Probably not.

The funny thing is I kind of agree with you. I am not sold that he is a long term answer, but do feel his production warrants another year at least as the starter. There are bigger issues to address on this team where the money could be better spent than replacing a rookie who seems to be growing into his own.

ode to veeck
08-04-2009, 12:55 PM
Here's an idea. Let's ignore all the at bats Getz didn't get a hit in. In those at bats, he's hitting 1.000!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Posts like this are exactly how the legend of BA was created.

Why not munchie, you seem to be ignoring all the hits and SBs and extra bases legged out he's had for the last 6 weeks!?! BA never had a stretch like Chris has just had for the last month so your comparison is worse than apples to friggin oranges, it's like apples to durian fruit it stinks so much!

hawkjt
08-04-2009, 12:58 PM
Sometimes players just keep getting better. Did anyone think Theriot would be the everyday ss for the Cubs? I thought he was a decent utility guy at best.
I want contact,high average guys on the Sox for a change...until this year we could not find anyone that could hit .300.
Getz has a short quick stroke that will always make decent contact and he can turn on an inside pitch for doubles (17). If he fields ok,and proves an ability to hit left-handed pitching.. then I will be fine with him.

ode to veeck
08-04-2009, 12:59 PM
That's great. You think he'll keep it up for the rest of his career? It seems like he's just hot to me.

I LIKE CHRIS GETZ. I just don't see him as the long term answer at 2B. We're good enough this year to cover his lack of production. Next year? Probably not.

Hey for sure Chris has got to prove himself over a longer period, but to talk about Chris' "lack of production" is just ludicrous at this point, going back to my original point of saying .300 BA is only "stopgap" is more than ludicrous, it is just plain flat out wrong, period. Stop now while you're wayyy behind Munchman.

LoveYourSuit
08-04-2009, 01:02 PM
The funny thing is I kind of agree with you. I am not sold that he is a long term answer, but do feel his production warrants another year at least as the starter. There are bigger issues to address on this team where the money could be better spent than replacing a rookie who seems to be growing into his own.


I too am not sold on Getz being a staple at 2B for the next 10 years. But he sure has come a long way from what I felt about him going into the season and also during his awful slump. He is still young and only a rookie.

His glove needs major work IMO along with Alexei. Not the glove itself, but getting their minds right when they are playing defense.

bigdommer
08-04-2009, 01:03 PM
That's great. You think he'll keep it up for the rest of his career? It seems like he's just hot to me.

I LIKE CHRIS GETZ. I just don't see him as the long term answer at 2B. We're good enough this year to cover his lack of production. Next year? Probably not.

There was a heated debate following the 2003 season between two guys at second base. One would be kept, and the other guy would be relegated to "utility" duty until he was shipped out of town. The team kept the 25 year old kid who had put up 273/337/367 over the last 3/4's of the previous season. He became a cog in their lineup for the next 6 years (so far, signed through 2014), a 2 time all star, and one of the best leadoff hitters in the game. The other guy has been on four MLB teams, with a handful of minor league stops, and gets the occasional spot start.

The players: Brian Roberts and Jerry Hairston, Jr. The point: it is way to soon to pass judgement on a guy like Getz. Let's let him mature and grow into his role on this team. He probably won't be Joe Morgan, but he probably won't be D'Angelo Jimenez.

munchman33
08-04-2009, 01:10 PM
The funny thing is I kind of agree with you. I am not sold that he is a long term answer, but do feel his production warrants another year at least as the starter. There are bigger issues to address on this team where the money could be better spent than replacing a rookie who seems to be growing into his own.

We're probably losing Dye and Thome next year already. 2B is a position where decent production doesn't cost a ton of money. Same for 3B, as decent offensive numbers don't cost so much (so Beckham at 2B next year is a possibility). Getz would pretty much have to hit .320 the rest of the way for me to be sold on another year. We're gonna need guaranteed production.

munchman33
08-04-2009, 01:12 PM
There was a heated debate following the 2003 season between two guys at second base. One would be kept, and the other guy would be relegated to "utility" duty until he was shipped out of town. The team kept the 25 year old kid who had put up 273/337/367 over the last 3/4's of the previous season. He became a cog in their lineup for the next 6 years (so far, signed through 2014), a 2 time all star, and one of the best leadoff hitters in the game. The other guy has been on four MLB teams, with a handful of minor league stops, and gets the occasional spot start.

The players: Brian Roberts and Jerry Hairston, Jr. The point: it is way to soon to pass judgement on a guy like Getz. Let's let him mature and grow into his role on this team. He probably won't be Joe Morgan, but he probably won't be D'Angelo Jimenez.

:?:

Bringing up a guy who got better after using PEDS is not helping your case.

ode to veeck
08-04-2009, 01:16 PM
We're probably losing Dye and Thome next year already. 2B is a position where decent production doesn't cost a ton of money. Same for 3B, as decent offensive numbers don't cost so much (so Beckham at 2B next year is a possibility). Getz would pretty much have to hit .320 the rest of the way for me to be sold on another year. We're gonna need guaranteed production.

we already have decent run production at 2B, that's the point, in fact we currently have great run production at 2B, find a real problem to fix

KMcMahon817
08-04-2009, 01:17 PM
We're probably losing Dye and Thome next year already. 2B is a position where decent production doesn't cost a ton of money. Same for 3B, as decent offensive numbers don't cost so much (so Beckham at 2B next year is a possibility). Getz would pretty much have to hit .320 the rest of the way for me to be sold on another year. We're gonna need guaranteed production.

Wow. You're ridiculous. Please, Munch, tell me 5-8 2B who are having a better season than Getz, and then factor in age and speed and the other intangibles. The kid is here to stay for the next few years, whether you like it or not.

ode to veeck
08-04-2009, 01:17 PM
We're probably losing Dye and Thome next year already. 2B is a position where decent production doesn't cost a ton of money. Same for 3B, as decent offensive numbers don't cost so much (so Beckham at 2B next year is a possibility). Getz would pretty much have to hit .320 the rest of the way for me to be sold on another year. We're gonna need guaranteed production.


... or in other words, Getz has to be the best stick in all of MLB at 2B for you to consider having him around again, gimme a break

Beautox
08-04-2009, 01:22 PM
How about Bobby Abreu? He's not a prototypical cleanup hitter, but he still can get on base, steal bases, hit for high average, and hit some homers too:

Figgins, Getz, Beckham, Abreu, TCQ, Paulie, AJ, TCM, Pods

Then you rotate the DH among Abreu, Quentin, Paulie and Pods. Essentially we're letting Dye and Thome go, and signing Figgins and Abreu.

Anyway, back on topic, I think Getz and Beckham will be a great 2-3 combo.

Getz has a ton of potential. He very well could become our future 1-2 hitter in front of Gordon and Carlos. Getz's upside is a 750 - 770OPS player that has the potential to steal 30+ at a successful rate. He very well could become our very own Brian Roberts, i doubt he ever gets a 900OPS season under his belt but stranger things have happened.

Chris's floor is what your seeing right now. His median is a Bill Doran type player; which has a ton of value to a team provided your not paying him too much and other areas around the diamond are making up for his lack of production.

with the way the sox system is right now I'm sure the brass is ok with letting things play out at 2B and 3B the way they are going into next year to see what we really have in Dayan and Morel.

bigdommer
08-04-2009, 01:25 PM
:?:

Bringing up a guy who got better after using PEDS is not helping your case.

If he used in 2003, not sure what that has to do with his 2005 & 2007 all-star campaigns. Also not sure what that has to do with his stellar 2008 & 2009 performances. Or his 2006 season, cut short by a freak collision at 1st base.

voodoochile
08-04-2009, 01:31 PM
We're probably losing Dye and Thome next year already. 2B is a position where decent production doesn't cost a ton of money. Same for 3B, as decent offensive numbers don't cost so much (so Beckham at 2B next year is a possibility). Getz would pretty much have to hit .320 the rest of the way for me to be sold on another year. We're gonna need guaranteed production.

I'd bet Dye will be back, either because they pick up his option or extend him.

munchman33
08-04-2009, 01:32 PM
we already have decent run production at 2B, that's the point, in fact we currently have great run production at 2B, find a real problem to fix

There must be some other Getz on the roster hitting .270 with no power then.

Wow. You're ridiculous. Please, Munch, tell me 5-8 2B who are having a better season than Getz, and then factor in age and speed and the other intangibles. The kid is here to stay for the next few years, whether you like it or not.

Show me an everyday 2B with worse numbers. That list is significantly smaller than the everyday 2B with better numbers. Off the top of my head, I can't think of anyone worse that .270/.320/.380. Can you?

... or in other words, Getz has to be the best stick in all of MLB at 2B for you to consider having him around again, gimme a break

No. But you do have to hit for a really high average if you have zero power.

KMcMahon817
08-04-2009, 01:33 PM
I'd bet Dye will be back, either because they pick up his option or extend him.

I agree.

munchman33
08-04-2009, 01:33 PM
I'd bet Dye will be back, either because they pick up his option or extend him.

They'd have to extend him, as he'd easily get 3/45 in free agency. But I hope they do.

Metalthrasher442
08-04-2009, 01:34 PM
Woah I did not expect this thread to break out into little arguments.

I think it's pretty ridiculous that you guys think we should only keep him if he becomes one of the best hitting second baseman in the league.

If he keeps up this pace until the end of the season and bats around .270 or .280 there is no reason why he should not be the starter for next season. We have always needed more speed on the bases and when he gets on he goes first the third no problem. There is no doubt that he has helped out this team this season with his speed alone. He will also be more experienced with the glove next season and not make as many bone headed plays (hopefully the same goes for Ramirez).

munchman33
08-04-2009, 01:34 PM
If he used in 2003, not sure what that has to do with his 2005 & 2007 all-star campaigns. Also not sure what that has to do with his stellar 2008 & 2009 performances. Or his 2006 season, cut short by a freak collision at 1st base.

He took HGH, not steroids. You can't "ungrow."

bigdommer
08-04-2009, 01:35 PM
We're probably losing Dye and Thome next year already. 2B is a position where decent production doesn't cost a ton of money. Same for 3B, as decent offensive numbers don't cost so much (so Beckham at 2B next year is a possibility). Getz would pretty much have to hit .320 the rest of the way for me to be sold on another year. We're gonna need guaranteed production.

So, if Getz does not hit .320, we are better off paying $8MM for Hudson or $5-6MM for Polanco? And that doesn't include draft picks or the amount of years that they will want. If everybody had to hit .320 to prove themselves, they would have start cancelling some seasons.

voodoochile
08-04-2009, 01:37 PM
He took HGH, not steroids. You can't "ungrow."

What the **** are you talking about? HGH doesn't make adults taller and just like steroids if you stop taking it, you lose the extra muscle mass. Of course since MLB doesn't test for HGH (nearly impossible unless you test after every game) anyone who is using it could still be using it and we wouldn't know.

bigdommer
08-04-2009, 01:39 PM
He took HGH, not steroids. You can't "ungrow."

Brian Roberts never admitted to using HGH, he admitted to using steroids to Larry Bigbie/Jason Grimsley.

munchman33
08-04-2009, 01:40 PM
So, if Getz does not hit .320, we are better off paying $8MM for Hudson or $5-6MM for Polanco? And that doesn't include draft picks or the amount of years that they will want. If everybody had to hit .320 to prove themselves, they would have start cancelling some seasons.

Hitting .270 or even .290 for that matter isn't helping if you only get on base 32% of the time and hit no homeruns.

Why the hell isn't that obvious!?!? If you don't hit for power AT ALL and you don't walk a lot either, YOU HAVE TO HIT THE BALL AT AN ELITE LEVEL.

munchman33
08-04-2009, 01:43 PM
What the **** are you talking about? HGH doesn't make adults taller and just like steroids if you stop taking it, you lose the extra muscle mass. Of course since MLB doesn't test for HGH (nearly impossible unless you test after every game) anyone who is using it could still be using it and we wouldn't know.

Actually, HGH is the hormone chiefly responsible for making people grow taller. Prolonged usage in adults usually leads to about 2-3 inches in height growth.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Growth_hormone_treatment

munchman33
08-04-2009, 01:44 PM
Brian Roberts never admitted to using HGH, he admitted to using steroids to Larry Bigbie/Jason Grimsley.

Wasn't he on the government's HGH purchase list though?

KMcMahon817
08-04-2009, 01:49 PM
Hitting .270 or even .290 for that matter isn't helping if you only get on base 32% of the time and hit no homeruns.

Why the hell isn't that obvious!?!? If you don't hit for power AT ALL and you don't walk a lot either, YOU HAVE TO HIT THE BALL AT AN ELITE LEVEL.

Because he adds a dimension that this team needs, and has strayed away from the past several years. That is the ability to hit for average, and have plus speed. The sox need to have some speed on the basepaths, and with speed, usually comes less power. As long as the Sox have other power hitters in the line-up, I don't see the need for the lead off, 2 hole, or 9 hole to have a whole lot of power. And with Quentin, Paulie, TCM, Dye and potentially Gordo all having plus power, there is simply no need for GETZ to be a large run producer, as far as power is concerned. End of argument.

bigdommer
08-04-2009, 01:50 PM
Wasn't he on the government's HGH purchase list though?

No. His name was one of the "redacted" names from Jason Grimsley's bust and interrogation. The names were redacted, but the Mitchell Report was able to view the names. The Feds as Grimsley about Roberts, and he gave them Bigbie's name, and Bigbie gave more dirt on Roberts. They never saw Roberts do anything, but Roberts told them in the locker room that he had done something. After Roberts name was on the Mitchell Report, he came out and admitted to using steroids a couple of times in 2003.

Brewski
08-04-2009, 01:50 PM
:?: Getting an extra base hit every week of a season is a tall order.

I'll give you the functional speed argument, as I tend to agree in most cases with it. But the guy doesn't get on base. He's like Brandon Phillips, only without the power. And when I say without the power, I literally mean all of the power.

I think Getz has shown he's good enough to be on a major league ballclub. But there's just not enough there. He doesn't hit for average, he doesn't hit for power, he doesn't get on base. He's got a few tools, but people are so focused on what he's done right that they're completely ignoring how obviously flawed he is.

Hmmm...people are lauding a guy who can't hit. I think we found Brian's replacement. :(:

I think you have found Anderson's replacement as the object of your unique ideas about baseball. You don't appear to have much company this time.

voodoochile
08-04-2009, 01:53 PM
Actually, HGH is the hormone chiefly responsible for making people grow taller. Prolonged usage in adults usually leads to about 2-3 inches in height growth.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Growth_hormone_treatment

The only statement that seems to show that to be the case is in the Turner Syndrome section other sections don't seem to list it. I don't know if it has the same effect if you don't have Turner Syndrome.

GH has been taken by athletes and to increase recovery, strength and power.

That's why people take it and the effects do diminish if you stop. In addition, how would being taller help a baseball player?

This is an odd tangent, even for you, Munch...

jabrch
08-04-2009, 01:59 PM
This is ridiculous. Arguing over 2% additional times on base for your ninth hitting rookie 2B...

The expectation that every player be of all-star calibre or they have no place here is so damn ignorant of the real world. It's sad how ungrounded our fans have become.

I'm more and more convinced that the ****ing calculatorheads have no ****ing clue what goes on on a field of play.

ode to veeck
08-04-2009, 02:02 PM
I'm more and more convinced that the ****ing calculatorheads have no ****ing clue what goes on on a field of play.

Oh, I've know that for a long, long time.

thedudeabides
08-04-2009, 02:06 PM
There was a heated debate following the 2003 season between two guys at second base. One would be kept, and the other guy would be relegated to "utility" duty until he was shipped out of town. The team kept the 25 year old kid who had put up 273/337/367 over the last 3/4's of the previous season. He became a cog in their lineup for the next 6 years (so far, signed through 2014), a 2 time all star, and one of the best leadoff hitters in the game. The other guy has been on four MLB teams, with a handful of minor league stops, and gets the occasional spot start.

The players: Brian Roberts and Jerry Hairston, Jr. The point: it is way to soon to pass judgement on a guy like Getz. Let's let him mature and grow into his role on this team. He probably won't be Joe Morgan, but he probably won't be D'Angelo Jimenez.

I'll take it a step further. Here are the career statistics for 5 left handed hitting second basemen who have all been all-star players.

Brian Roberts (http://www.thebaseballcube.com/players/R/Brian-Roberts.shtml)
Robinson Cano (http://www.thebaseballcube.com/players/C/Robinson-Cano.shtml)
Orlando Hudson (http://www.thebaseballcube.com/players/H/Orlando-Hudson.shtml)
Adam Kennedy (http://www.thebaseballcube.com/players/K/Adam-Kennedy.shtml)
Luis Castillo (http://www.thebaseballcube.com/players/C/Luis-Castillo.shtml)

Take a look at the comparisons for their rookie seasons and Getz current season. He is in line with all of them, even ahead of some. He is lacking in power to Cano, but exceeds him in stolen bases.

Not all played college baseball, so if you want, do the comparison for their seasons at 25, and he is still right in line.

He may not end up being any of these guys, but he has started out very similar to all of them. My biggest point being, you are not stuck at what you do your rookie year. All of these players got better, some significantly, and I expect Getz to get better, as well.

Also, power comes later for most hitters at the big league level. There is nothing saying Getz couldn't develop into a 10-15 HR hitter over the next couple of years. Right now, they are emphasizing contact and line drives, so naturally he is not going to get a lot of homeruns. I'm fine with the increased doubles. Pitch recognition is the same way. We could easily see his walks increase quite a bit, as his career progresses.

jabrch
08-04-2009, 02:09 PM
Oh, I've know that for a long, long time.

I always thought there was some sense to it. But some people go so far past sense into the realm of pure blatant ****ing stupidity.

gobears1987
08-04-2009, 02:10 PM
The trading of Brandon Allen ensured Dye will be back as it means PK is not moving to DH. I like Dye as a DH and think he can still play RF even though he has slowed down. He still has the best instincts and arm on the team. Those instincts allow him to get jumps that make up for his speed.

bigdommer
08-04-2009, 02:10 PM
I'll take it a step further. Here are the career statistics for 5 left handed hitting second basemen who have all been all-star players.



This dude abides. Thanks for the analysis. Getz for the minimum or 3 years and $20MM worth of Hudson? (apply teal if you would like)

jabrch
08-04-2009, 02:12 PM
The trading of Brandon Allen ensured Dye will be back as it means PK is not moving to DH.

One thing we know for sure is that we have no clue what KW is going to do in the offseason...

gobears1987
08-04-2009, 02:12 PM
As for Getz, the only reason he isn't getting attention is that Gordon Beckham is having an unreal rookie season. Getz would be in the top 3 for rookie of the year and would get all of the discussion on the south side if it weren't for Beckham. I've heard though that the two of them have been working out together and seem to be feeding off of eachother. In most years I'm happy to see one good rookie on the team. This year we have been blessed with two.

oeo
08-04-2009, 02:20 PM
The trading of Brandon Allen ensured Dye will be back as it means PK is not moving to DH.

I don't know about that. Maybe the Sox felt they were selling high on Allen.

ode to veeck
08-04-2009, 02:27 PM
No. But you do have to hit for a really high average if you have zero power.

Sorry Munchie but this is just plain assed wrong. The biggest problem we had with a damn good 2nd baseman a few years back was when Ray Ray thought he should start hitting for power -- and he became a much much much less effective hitter, when in fact he was previously one of the key spark plugs in the Sox '00 range timeframe lineup.

In the last couple of months, Getz has demonstrated numerous offensive skills that you just can't seem to fathom because his average for the year (including his 1st ever complete month in the show) is only .270 at this point. He gets clutch hits, he's steals bases at will, goes 1st to 3rd, 2nd to home more than anyone on the team and is hitting well over .300 now that's he's getting used to things here.

You said he has no speed - absolutely wrong

You said he needed to hit .320 for the year to consider keeping him - absolutely wrong

You said he couldn't hit- absolutely wrong

You said he had no run production - absolutely wrong (esp when you consider what he does on basepaths)

The Sox have been accurately characterized as a slow footed power hitting team for the last 10 years, and now we have a young guy (admittedly not with a lot of power yet) who gets a lot of hits, makes a lot of small ball things happen, is impossible to throw out when stealing, and you want to spent big contract money to replace him with more power?!?! (esp when Pods has limited time in his role too).

ode to veeck
08-04-2009, 02:37 PM
One thing we know for sure is that we have no clue what KW is going to do in the offseason...

I'm praying for the Neftali Feliz acquisition this winter

thedudeabides
08-04-2009, 02:37 PM
Show me an everyday 2B with worse numbers. That list is significantly smaller than the everyday 2B with better numbers. Off the top of my head, I can't think of anyone worse that .270/.320/.380. Can you?


I guess you just want to go by OPS, which I still think is a silly single measure to judge a rookie, but you asked.

Kelly Johnson
Kaz Matsui
Placido Palanco
David Eckstein
Mark Ellis
Luis Valbuena
Alexi Casilla and Matt Tolbert(The stellar combo in Minn. where neither are cracking a .500 OPS)
Anderson Hernandez
Emanual Burris

Paulwny
08-04-2009, 02:52 PM
Right now, they are emphasizing contact and line drives, so naturally he is not going to get a lot of homeruns. I'm fine with the increased doubles. Pitch recognition is the same way. We could easily see his walks increase quite a bit, as his career progresses.


Yep, when you're a rookie and the manager and hitting coach tell you to hit line drives and use your speed, if you're smart you don't swing for the fences.

jabrch
08-04-2009, 02:54 PM
I guess you just want to go by OPS, which I still think is a silly single measure to judge a rookie, but you asked.

It is also a bad way to judge a #9 hitter. It is also a bad way to judge a guy who isn't expected to be a power hitter.

It's ignorant and stupid.

DickAllen72
08-04-2009, 03:01 PM
Getz has no power and average speed for his position. He really needs to hit .320 or have an OBP above .400 to be considered anything other than stopgap.

Don't get me wrong, I'm happy with the job he's done. But there's also a LOT of room for improvement at that position.
I'd be more than satisfied with the job he's doing at the plate if he was a plus defender at 2B. The thing is he's not. Getz is average at best on defense at 2B. He doesn't have a great arm and he seems to take a long time to throw which makes many potential DPs either too close for comfort or just one out. His range isn't anything special and his glove is average.

Conversely, I'd be more than satisfied with his D if he put up the .320 .400 line you speak of, but that's not happening.

I was hoping KW was going to bring in a top 3rd baseman and move Beckham to 2b. Apparently that's not in the Sox plans either this year or the near future. With that being the case, I guess a Getz/Nix platoon at 2B isn't too bad. If only Ramirez wasn't such a disappointment on defense at SS..... The Sox' defense up-the-middle is horrid.

ode to veeck
08-04-2009, 03:14 PM
I'd be more than satisfied with the job he's doing at the plate if he was a plus defender at 2B. The thing is he's not. Getz is average at best on defense at 2B. He doesn't have a great arm and he seems to take a long time to throw which makes many potential DPs either too close for comfort or just one out. His range isn't anything special and his glove is average.

Conversely, I'd be more than satisfied with his D if he put up the .320 .400 line you speak of, but that's not happening.

I was hoping KW was going to bring in a top 3rd baseman and move Beckham to 2b. Apparently that's not in the Sox plans either this year or the near future. With that being the case, I guess a Getz/Nix platoon at 2B isn't too bad. If only Ramirez wasn't such a disappointment on defense at SS..... The Sox' defense up-the-middle is horrid.

Getz absolutely has to improve on D, as does everyone on the infield save Paulie

Rohan
08-04-2009, 03:40 PM
He's definitely our future second baseman. I have no question about it. Unless Dewayne Wise learns how to play second base...

palehozenychicty
08-04-2009, 04:07 PM
The only way for him to eliminate these errors is experience. Playing less will only slow that process down. I know he played at a major college and in the minors, but the speed and stage are much grander at this level. All rookies make these types of mistakes. Everyone just needs to have some patience with these guys. Nobody comes into the league as a complete player.


Thank you. I think that Getz has improved with consistent playing time and made the necessary adjustments. People liked his tools at the beginning of year, soured on him a little, and love him again. He's only a rookie. He has a nice feel for the game as well, so I think he'll work on the defense this winter.

russ99
08-04-2009, 04:15 PM
Thank you. I think that Getz has improved with consistent playing time and made the necessary adjustments. People liked his tools at the beginning of year, soured on him a little, and love him again. He's only a rookie. He has a nice feel for the game as well, so I think he'll work on the defense this winter.

Baseball America had Getz pegged as as an eventual utility guy before this year, but he's surpassed that ceiling this season and should start at 2B the rest of the year.

But I wonder if he might end up on the bench if the Sox got a better hitting or a leadoff type infielder next year, with one or both of Alexei and Beckham potentially changing position.

I'm in favor of keeping Alexei at SS, since his range is among the best at the position and some of the bad plays we're seeing will go away with more experience.

palehozenychicty
08-04-2009, 04:24 PM
Baseball America had Getz pegged as as an eventual utility guy before this year, but he's surpassed that ceiling this season and should start at 2B the rest of the year.

But I wonder if he might end up on the bench if the Sox got a better hitting or a leadoff type infielder next year, with one or both of Alexei and Beckham potentially changing position.

I'm in favor of keeping Alexei at SS, since his range is among the best at the position and some of the bad plays we're seeing will go away with more experience.

He'd have more value in a trade if Alexei or Beckham change positions. Since he can only play second, the bench would be a wasted role for him, in my mind.

I think that Alexei has had an uneven sophomore year. His offensive stats are solid, but he hasn't been impacting games like last season. The defense has been spotty at times, too. He has talent, so he will get time to work it out.

ode to veeck
08-04-2009, 04:32 PM
Baseball America had Getz pegged as as an eventual utility guy before this year, but he's surpassed that ceiling this season and should start at 2B the rest of the year.

But I wonder if he might end up on the bench if the Sox got a better hitting or a leadoff type infielder next year, with one or both of Alexei and Beckham potentially changing position.

I'm in favor of keeping Alexei at SS, since his range is among the best at the position and some of the bad plays we're seeing will go away with more experience.

the first line did you in here, when your foundational assumption comes from a sabremetrics based analyis company like baseball america (has become more so in recent year too)

then from there you go to find a "better hitting" or "leadoff type infielder" to replace a guy who is currently knocking the cover off the ball and stealing bases at will ?!?!

where to people look for analysis? pre-season or early season on a rookie sabremetrics, or take a look at what is actually going on the field with the guy as the season and rookie develop

Getz keeps playing this way, the only thing we'll need to see differently is his defence at 2B continue to improve, period

TornLabrum
08-04-2009, 05:54 PM
Can I have the last ten minutes of my life back? PLEEEEEEEEAAAAAAAAAASSSSSSSSSSSSSSEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE EEEE???????????????????

DickAllen72
08-04-2009, 06:09 PM
Getz absolutely has to improve on D, as does everyone on the infield save Paulie
Couldn't agree more.

munchman33
08-04-2009, 06:57 PM
I have a serious question. Why does everyone seem to think Getz hits "for average" when his batting average is below the league average?

And before you say it, using a six week sample size is really bad reasoning. So save that.

munchman33
08-04-2009, 06:58 PM
I guess you just want to go by OPS, which I still think is a silly single measure to judge a rookie, but you asked.

Kelly Johnson
Kaz Matsui
Placido Palanco
David Eckstein
Mark Ellis
Luis Valbuena
Alexi Casilla and Matt Tolbert(The stellar combo in Minn. where neither are cracking a .500 OPS)
Anderson Hernandez
Emanual Burris

So....2/3 of the league is outperforming him.

Ladies and gentlemen, your so-called second baseman of the future!

I don't even think Kenny believes Getz is the long term answer.

Frater Perdurabo
08-04-2009, 07:30 PM
I have a serious question. Why does everyone seem to think Getz hits "for average" when his batting average is below the league average?

Because it is his rookie season, and he's improved as the season has progressed. I'm surprised you weren't writing off Beckham after his 0-fer start. And I'll bet you were writing off Ventura after his 0-for-40-something start.

thedudeabides
08-04-2009, 08:31 PM
So....2/3 of the league is outperforming him.

Ladies and gentlemen, your so-called second baseman of the future!

I don't even think Kenny believes Getz is the long term answer.

:scratch:

You said you couldn't think of anyone he was outperforming. So, since your too lazy to look it up and don't like dealing in facts, I provided a list for you.

russ99
08-04-2009, 08:41 PM
the first line did you in here, when your foundational assumption comes from a sabremetrics based analyis company like baseball america (has become more so in recent year too)

then from there you go to find a "better hitting" or "leadoff type infielder" to replace a guy who is currently knocking the cover off the ball and stealing bases at will ?!?!

where to people look for analysis? pre-season or early season on a rookie sabremetrics, or take a look at what is actually going on the field with the guy as the season and rookie develop

Getz keeps playing this way, the only thing we'll need to see differently is his defence at 2B continue to improve, period

Sorry, but in my book BBA are the best (not in the major leagues) at evaluating prospects. They crosscheck with professional scouts and have a much more player evaluation/ tools focus over numbers slant and not solely into sabermetrics.

That comparison is annoying since you're lumping them in with the fantasy and PECOTA crowd which draw assumptions out of the air by bending numbers they way they want.

What I said is true. They projected Getz as a utility player based on his tools, and he's exceeded that ceiling this year.

But the assumption that he can develop more into something he's not is flawed. Who's to say how much more Getz can develop. He could be a .300+ hitter with 20-30 SBs, and hold down the 2B job quite nicely for the next 5-10 years, and I'd be happy with that.

But the scouting people say (and I agree with) is that he'll never be a power hitter or a Reyes/Figgins style leadoff man despite his steal numbers this year, which are the types of players I mentioned (or at least alluded to) and could be need players the Sox pursue that could keep him away from a starting job next season.

Metalthrasher442
08-04-2009, 10:13 PM
Terrible game tonight, but I still love him.

And we one so its all good