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balke
08-01-2009, 09:33 AM
In September assume all teams are healthy. Who has the best starting rotation in baseball? Think of this in another way, best Pitching staff on paper.


I say White Sox. I give thought to San Francisco Atlanta Florida? and Philly. My buddy says the Tigers? I'm not even trying to be a homer here, this might just fill me in on some staffs around the league.

Who on paper should have the best pitching staff in the MLB top to bottom?

Rohan
08-01-2009, 12:05 PM
Too soon to make a call like that.

munchman33
08-01-2009, 12:19 PM
Too soon to make a call like that.

:?:

He said on paper.

Frater Perdurabo
08-01-2009, 12:46 PM
Wait until after KW gets Halladay to make this claim. :tongue:

Metalthrasher442
08-01-2009, 01:03 PM
I like the Phillies staff, but that's in part because I really like the offense behind them.

The Sox are up there too. I'm so excited to see how Peavy fairs at his new home ball park.

34rancher
08-01-2009, 01:27 PM
Are we just talking starters? And if so are we talking when healthy? The Sox are in the discussion, but so are the cubs, the Tigers, and Phillies. One would even have to consider D-backs or Red Sox too.

Just wondering if the bullpens are being thrown in also.

balke
08-01-2009, 01:34 PM
Are we just talking starters? And if so are we talking when healthy? The Sox are in the discussion, but so are the cubs, the Tigers, and Phillies. One would even have to consider D-backs or Red Sox too.

Just wondering if the bullpens are being thrown in also.

I was saying starting rotations.

Metalthrasher442
08-01-2009, 01:34 PM
Are we just talking starters? And if so are we talking when healthy? The Sox are in the discussion, but so are the cubs, the Tigers, and Phillies. One would even have to consider D-backs or Red Sox too.

Just wondering if the bullpens are being thrown in also.

I'm pretty sure he meant just the starting rotation and I forgot about the Cubs.

Zambrano, Dempster, and Harden and all choice pitchers. Imagine if the would have kept Jason M

LoveYourSuit
08-01-2009, 01:39 PM
Well, name a team that will have Two "ACEs" at the top?


I think the Sox are the only team that can claim that.

Shoeless
08-01-2009, 01:43 PM
Well, name a team that will have Two "ACEs" at the top?


I think the Sox are the only team that can claim that.

The Yankees? Maybe? I'll take Sabathia/Burnett or Buerhle/Peavy even money. After that though, I'll take Contreras, Danks and Floyd over Chamberlain and Pettitte and Mitre. Next year's a different story though

balke
08-01-2009, 01:44 PM
I think the D-backs, Phillies, Cubs, and Giants could claim that.

Most don't have Floyd and Danks following them up though which is just crazy to me.

balke
08-01-2009, 01:46 PM
The Yankees? Maybe? I'll take Sabathia/Beckett or Buerhle/Peavy even money. After that though, I'll take Contreras, Danks and Floyd over Chamberlain and Pettitte and Mitre. Next year's a different story though

Yanks have Burnett, not Beckett. i know the names are similar, the talent is far from it though. Danks is better than Burnett IMO.

Metalthrasher442
08-01-2009, 01:48 PM
Yanks have Burnett, not Beckett. i know the names are similar, the talent is far from it though. Danks is better than Burnett IMO.

Yeah I was just about to say that.. and on that note today's game is going to be awesome.

Shoeless
08-01-2009, 01:53 PM
Yeah I was just about to say that.. and on that note today's game is going to be awesome.

Not my finest hour :redneck.

BadBobbyJenks
08-01-2009, 02:14 PM
Buehrle
Peavy
Danks
Floyd
Contreras


I will go to war with that. Cheers to Kenny Williams

Eddo144
08-01-2009, 02:33 PM
Well, name a team that will have Two "ACEs" at the top?


I think the Sox are the only team that can claim that.
If by "the only" you mean "one of a handful of", then yes, that is correct.

Diamondbacks (Haren, Webb)
Red Sox (Lester, Beckett)
Yankees (Sabathia, Burnett)
Phillies (Hamels, Lee)
Giants (Lincecum, Cain)

The Dodgers (Billingsley, Kershaw) have potential, though I wouldn't say they're there yet. The Cubs have one ace (Zambrano) and three others capable of being aces (Harden, Dempster, Lilly). The Tigers have one current ace (Verlander) and one potential ace (Jackson).

I'm very happy with the Sox' rotation, but to claim it's the best in baseball is crazy.

34rancher
08-01-2009, 02:46 PM
I'm pretty sure he meant just the starting rotation and I forgot about the Cubs.

Zambrano, Dempster, and Harden and all choice pitchers. Imagine if the would have kept Jason M
Again, if we are talking "when healthy", it pains me to say the Cubs when people forget Lilly, who I think may be their best and most reliable. Don't get me wrong, I love the Sox when healthy. I am just glad we have a solid bull pen and an emerging offense. Too bad we did not click on O earlier in this season, this division could be over.

chisoxfan4life
08-01-2009, 02:52 PM
Ted Lilly had an ERA below 4 ONE season in the AL. He pitched 8 seasons in the AL. Lilly would be our 5th starter if he were on our team. He is so overrated.

Edit: BTW both Danks and Floyd had sub-4 ERAs in their first full season in the AL.

TheVulture
08-01-2009, 03:02 PM
Dempster with his career 81-86 4.54 line after 12 seasons is just screaming ace. If that is good enough for "ace" status, the Sox have five aces. None of those teams mentioned has a Danks and Floyd at 3 and 4, either. Garland and Scherzer? Penny and Wakefield? Blanton and Happ? Zito and Sanchez? Chamberlain and Pettite? I'll stick with John and Gavin.

Thatguyoverthere
08-01-2009, 03:29 PM
If by "the only" you mean "one of a handful of", then yes, that is correct.

Diamondbacks (Haren, Webb)
Red Sox (Lester, Beckett)
Yankees (Sabathia, Burnett)
Phillies (Hamels, Lee)
Giants (Lincecum, Cain)

The Dodgers (Billingsley, Kershaw) have potential, though I wouldn't say they're there yet. The Cubs have one ace (Zambrano) and three others capable of being aces (Harden, Dempster, Lilly). The Tigers have one current ace (Verlander) and one potential ace (Jackson).

I'm very happy with the Sox' rotation, but to claim it's the best in baseball is crazy.Dempster, Burnett, Lilly aces? :rolling:

EDIT: And why is it crazy to say the Sox have the best rotation? Name me one better. Is there a better 3-4 in baseball than Gavin Floyd and John Danks? I don't think so. And Contreras is about as good a #5 you're going to get. Buehrle and Peavy at the top match up with anyone else's top two as well. It's at least a top three rotation in baseball, if not top 1. I've been reading other baseball boards and fans around the league agree with me. It's not biased to say we might be #1 here.

SoxNation05
08-01-2009, 05:04 PM
If by "the only" you mean "one of a handful of", then yes, that is correct.

Diamondbacks (Haren, Webb)
Red Sox (Lester, Beckett)
Yankees (Sabathia, Burnett)
Phillies (Hamels, Lee)
Giants (Lincecum, Cain)

The Dodgers (Billingsley, Kershaw) have potential, though I wouldn't say they're there yet. The Cubs have one ace (Zambrano) and three others capable of being aces (Harden, Dempster, Lilly). The Tigers have one current ace (Verlander) and one potential ace (Jackson).

I'm very happy with the Sox' rotation, but to claim it's the best in baseball is crazy.
Harden? An ace can go 8 innings and his WHIP/ERA is helped because of the fact that he doesnt have to pitch when he doesn't have his best stuff.
Dempster? He had one year of ace pitching he's a decent 2 or a solid 3.
Lilly? He is so over rated and its obvious he is benefiting from the NL anyways.

LoveYourSuit
08-01-2009, 05:09 PM
If by "the only" you mean "one of a handful of", then yes, that is correct.

Diamondbacks (Haren, Webb)
Red Sox (Lester, Beckett)
Yankees (Sabathia, Burnett)
Phillies (Hamels, Lee)
Giants (Lincecum, Cain)

The Dodgers (Billingsley, Kershaw) have potential, though I wouldn't say they're there yet. The Cubs have one ace (Zambrano) and three others capable of being aces (Harden, Dempster, Lilly). The Tigers have one current ace (Verlander) and one potential ace (Jackson).

I'm very happy with the Sox' rotation, but to claim it's the best in baseball is crazy.


Those in Bold I will give you.

Cain, Burnett, & Lester need to show me more before I call them "ACE" material.

SoxNation05
08-01-2009, 05:27 PM
Those in Bold I will give you.

Cain, Burnett, & Lester need to show me more before I call them "ACE" material.
Agreed. Exactly my thoughts.

Shoeless
08-02-2009, 12:38 AM
Those in Bold I will give you.

Cain, Burnett, & Lester need to show me more before I call them "ACE" material.
But he has already! He threw a no-hitter. He plays for the Red Sox!

Shoeless_Jim
08-02-2009, 12:50 AM
I think that we can at least say the Sox have the best staff in the AL.

Edit: The WHITE Sox that is.

doublem23
08-02-2009, 12:52 AM
I'm very happy with the Sox' rotation, but to claim it's the best in baseball is crazy.

A rotation is based on its full strength, not just it's 1-2 guys. Look how fast almost every other very good rotation falls off after their best pitchers. The Yankees are starting Sergio Mitre right now, for god's sake, the Red Sox are keeping John Smoltz around for some reason, etc. We have John Danks and Gavin Floyd as our 3/4... That's sick.

BleacherBandit
08-02-2009, 01:47 AM
A rotation is based on its full strength, not just it's 1-2 guys. Look how fast almost every other very good rotation falls off after their best pitchers. The Yankees are starting Sergio Mitre right now, for god's sake, the Red Sox are keeping John Smoltz around for some reason, etc. We have John Danks and Gavin Floyd as our 3/4... That's sick.


Yeah but Sergio Mitre is in there replacing Wang. If you're gonna compare these rotations to ours full strength (with Peavy), then I think you'd need to compare them to either the Yankees or the Red Sox full strength. The Red Sox also have Matsuzaka and Wakefield on the disabled list.

guillensdisciple
08-02-2009, 04:00 AM
A rotation is based on its full strength, not just it's 1-2 guys. Look how fast almost every other very good rotation falls off after their best pitchers. The Yankees are starting Sergio Mitre right now, for god's sake, the Red Sox are keeping John Smoltz around for some reason, etc. We have John Danks and Gavin Floyd as our 3/4... That's sick.


Gavin Floyd and John Danks should be rising 1 and 2 starters, but instead they are pitching as a 3 and 4. Indeed, this pitching staff is something else. I have been saying this all year, but if this team gels and plays to its capabilities, we might see something special on the south side.

Imagine how scary it is for a team to face a good pitched every day. The White Sox are constantly keeping their foot at other teams necks, and I believe that by the next time we play the Twins and Tigers this team will show them that the last road trip was just a fluke.


Go Sox!

1908<2005
08-02-2009, 05:03 AM
Giants have the best rotation in baseball right now because they're top 2 are 2 of the 10 best pitchers in baseball. Think we're right up there on the list though.

doublem23
08-02-2009, 05:15 AM
Giants have the best rotation in baseball right now because they're top 2 are 2 of the 10 best pitchers in baseball. Think we're right up there on the list though.

Look at who the Giants are starting after Cain and Lincecum, though... Randy Johnson when he's healthy, Barry Zito because they have to, Jonathan Sanchez, and Ryan Sadowski?

Thumbs down.

guillen4life13
08-02-2009, 05:31 AM
I'd say that, for the 2009 season, the Sox are arguably #1. For 2010 and/or 2011, they are definitely number 1 barring any major moves by other teams and lucky health.

Danks and Floyd are going through a sophomore slump if you even want to call it that. Floyd had a rough stretch at the beginning and Danks has been improving as the year has gone by. Neither are what they were last year but now they are pitching as well as (or better than) they did last year. Next year or the year after, barring injury, the Sox will have four guys who on just about any other staff would be the #1 or #2 starters. If Torres or Hudson work out the way we hope, they'd be #3 caliber starters in the 5th starter position.

If the offense is up to snuff (and I trust KW to do well with the money he'll have available after this season), I think the Sox have a legitimate chance to have four 15 game winners in 2010 and 2011.

I know this is very optimistic, but I think it's a distinct possibility that, depending on the health and offensive production of the team as a whole, the Sox could have one of the best starting rotations in MLB history if the starters perform to their potential in the next couple years. Danks and Floyd are going to get better, while Buehrle and Peavy are already two of the best out there. I think all of these guys are capable of winning 20 games in a season. Whether or not it all comes togetheri n the same season is a question to answer at a later date, but if the offense clicks, it's a possibility.

And, BTW, a quality worth noting about Peavy: Even though he isn't necessarily the ideal pitcher for the Cell, he still knows how to win. As a K pitcher, he puts less pressure on the suspect defense but his fastball has a sinking action that induces GB outs. With a little bit of work from Coop to tweak his approach to compensate for the new park, I believe Jake Peavy will do just fine pitching in the AL and in the Cell. He's a good pitcher with good experience.

cws05champ
08-02-2009, 10:08 AM
Those in Bold I will give you.

Cain, Burnett, & Lester need to show me more before I call them "ACE" material.
Agreed. It really kills me that Lester gets all this hype about being the best young LHP in the game, when Danks compares very favorably with him. If you look at their stats both last year and this they are very similar. Lester has more K's and pitches a few more innings. But with Danks as your # 3 now, it really sets up the whole rotation nicely.

daveeym
08-02-2009, 10:29 AM
Dempster, Burnett, Lilly aces? :rolling:

EDIT: And why is it crazy to say the Sox have the best rotation? Name me one better. Is there a better 3-4 in baseball than Gavin Floyd and John Danks? I don't think so. And Contreras is about as good a #5 you're going to get. Buehrle and Peavy at the top match up with anyone else's top two as well. It's at least a top three rotation in baseball, if not top 1. I've been reading other baseball boards and fans around the league agree with me. It's not biased to say we might be #1 here.Spot on. That's what drives me crazy about this board. Sure, we've had some number 5 problems over the years but who doesn't. The offense covers the difference between a good and bad No.5. Floyd and Danks are both still young and potential 2's. Not many better rotations out there now with Peavy in the fold.

balke
08-02-2009, 03:05 PM
Good conversation going guys. I think there are some other clubs with close rotations, or are good 1-4. I think I gotta stick with the Sox as the best when healthy though.

San Fran might take that over in a couple seasons if the young pitchers are as good as they claim in the minors. But in September and hopefully October, I think the Sox are taking in the best starting staff if healthy.

jabrch
08-02-2009, 03:06 PM
Look at who the Giants are starting after Cain and Lincecum, though... Randy Johnson when he's healthy, Barry Zito because they have to, Jonathan Sanchez, and Ryan Sadowski?

Thumbs down.

RJ is done for the season.

Beautox
08-03-2009, 01:47 AM
Honestly I think the sox have the best rotation in baseball that is only going to get even better in the very near future. Honestly Cain and The freak are an amazing parring but after that it gets interesting.

Mark Buehrle is only 30 years old and its not like he is going to lose anything off his stuff; I hope mark and the sox agree to keep him in on the south side way beyond '11

Jake Peavy is coming over from the NL and Petco but i think that is way overstated add to the fact that he is only 28 and just now entering his prime even though hes already won a CY and the pitching triple crown. just some quick reference points to those concerned about him coming to the AL. against the AL for his career He owns a 3.29 ERA in 20 starts, thats the same as his career ERA. Some other intresting stats against the AL: .235 BAA, .291 OBP, .663 OPS, 120.1 IP, 113 K, 33 BB, 3.42 K/BB, 1.17 WHIP 8.5 K/9.

John Danks looks like he could very well be the next Frank Viola and all though he has taken a little step back this year compared to last he is only 24 and he could very well go on a streak to rival last year.

Gavin Floyd a very solid pitcher with a great curve ball and a very good change up, honestly the way his career has gone this far i wouldn't be surprised when he starts to enter his prime that he puts up chris carpenter like numbers and again hes only 26 years old.

After listening to Hahn speak today and talk about how Daniel Hudson is untouchable and how he could come up and make the spot starts before peavy is ready, i wouldn't be supprised if he came up and did an above average job, i think his stuff will play out alot like John Lackey. above average 4 seam, slider, circle change and a show me curve ball that he said coming along recently.

To add to this amazing young and talented rotation we've got 3 really good looking positional prospects knocking on the door: Flowers, Viciedo and Danks to further supplement our current ml roster. For the few sox fans in doubt of Viciedo just know that hes been putting up this line since the asb at AA .373/.403/.627 1.040 with HR in 59 AB.

To sum it all up its going to be a great time to be the sox fan for the foreseeable future.

this is a little table i made to sum up the awesomeness of our rotation.

http://img.skitch.com/20090803-g76wk4bf8njqkau8pjsj7buapb.jpg

That is what i think hudson will put up in '10

asindc
08-03-2009, 09:22 AM
Giants have the best rotation in baseball right now because they're top 2 are 2 of the 10 best pitchers in baseball. Think we're right up there on the list though.

It is my understanding that a rotation consists of five pitchers.

fram40
08-03-2009, 10:17 AM
It is my understanding that a rotation consists of five pitchers.


not in October ...

jabrch
08-03-2009, 11:03 AM
Giants have the best rotation in baseball right now because they're top 2 are 2 of the 10 best pitchers in baseball. Think we're right up there on the list though.


Lincecum
Cain
Zito
Sanchez
?

Buehrle
Peavy
Danks
Floyd
Contreras

By my count, we are better by a very large margin at #3, #4 and #5. They are better at #1 and #2 by a much smaller margin.

I wouldn't swap definitely swap rotations with them assuming we are not bringing money into the equation.

jabrch
08-03-2009, 11:08 AM
It is my understanding that a rotation consists of five pitchers.

not in October ...

Still 4...and we blow them out of the water in #3 and #4. They MAY edge us at #1 and #2, but Mark and Jake are #1 type pitchers. The difference between MB+JP and TL/MC is very small when you add it up. I'll also give bonus points, in October, the two veterans, both who have pitched in October before. But the difference between Gavin/Danks and Zito/Sanchez is much larger in our favor.

I'm not saying I wouldn't take Lincecum over Jake or Mark. But if you ask me who I want 1-4, I'm going to go with out guys, if Peavy is healthy.

asindc
08-03-2009, 11:12 AM
not in October ...

The question isn't restricted to the playoffs.

GAsoxfan
08-03-2009, 11:34 AM
When healthy, I think the Braves would be in the conversation too. A rotation of Hudson, Jurrjens, Hanson, Vazquez, and Lowe is pretty stout.