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Viva Medias B's
07-29-2009, 10:45 PM
What new?

SoxGirl4Life
07-29-2009, 10:45 PM
That's my only thought. 3 more games

fuzzy_patters
07-29-2009, 10:45 PM
I'm with Hawk. I wish I could cuss right now.

JB98
07-29-2009, 10:45 PM
Kotsay couldn't have hit it any harder. Of course, Casilla's hit to score the game-winner was a patented bloop.

Hope Ramirez is OK.

SoxFan1979
07-29-2009, 10:46 PM
This stinks. With an offense like this what difference will it make if we had Peavy and Doc?

Konerko05
07-29-2009, 10:46 PM
I have nothing.

...
07-29-2009, 10:46 PM
Too bad the air vents weren't blowing in with enough force or that ball would have gotten down.

Blueprint1
07-29-2009, 10:46 PM
We lost because we hit like crap. Not because of the building the game was played in. Jose did his job today.

ms620
07-29-2009, 10:46 PM
Hey we are only 3 games back! Not bad at all! .500 record..awesome!!!

BadBobbyJenks
07-29-2009, 10:46 PM
We trade BA for Kotsay and Kotsay ends the game. BA would have won it obviously.

WhiteSox1989
07-29-2009, 10:46 PM
I can't wait for the last series there simply so I don't have to hear people bitch about it.


Truthfully, I stopped watching the game, and turned on the radio in about he 4th inning. I didn't see the Alexei slide...was it bad?

This isn't over. Kenny needs to do something about this **** offense, and even ****tier defense. I'm still not giving up on them though.

Get the Yankees, boys. :bandance:

Jerko
07-29-2009, 10:47 PM
Sad thing is, I think the Tigers suck and I think the Twins are complete and utter garbage, yet they both are ahead of the Sox. Well. lotta time left and I'm convinced, even after this sweep, the Twins finish no higher than 3rd.

Patrick134
07-29-2009, 10:47 PM
The Sox will come home for a long stand and be fine, at worst tied for first after this homestand.

AnkleSox
07-29-2009, 10:47 PM
We lost because we hit like crap. Not because of the building the game was played in. Jose did his job today.

The Sox hit like crap in that building because they are mental midgets.

GoGoCrede
07-29-2009, 10:47 PM
Thank god my feed was behind. Were the Twins celebrating on the field like last time we got swept there?

...
07-29-2009, 10:47 PM
I'm with Hawk. I wish I could cuss right now.

Why can't you? **** ****.

Viva Medias B's
07-29-2009, 10:47 PM
We lost because we hit like crap. Not because of the building the game was played in. Jose did his job today.

This is true, but once we play them at Target Field, here's hoping our players lose that defeatist mentality they have about the Metrodome.

doublem23
07-29-2009, 10:47 PM
Good thing we still have the undaunted Greg Walker.

BoysMom3
07-29-2009, 10:48 PM
When I heard the crack of Kotsay's bat, it sounded really good, and I was sure it was landing anywhere except for the rightfielder's glove. Dang it!!!!

Marqhead
07-29-2009, 10:48 PM
Mod Edit: Not tonight, please.

OmahaSoxFan
07-29-2009, 10:48 PM
Only 3 games left in this ****hole!

God this series was so painful to watch. Everytime something looked great for our guys, it turned to crap. I am glad this series is over, but am not feeling too optimistic about our chances this weekend against the "mighty" Spankees...

Welcome to third place, the way our team has played lately, they deserve it!

This sucks! :angry::angry::angry::angry:

WhiteSox1989
07-29-2009, 10:48 PM
The Sox will come home for a long stand and be fine, at worst tied for first after this homestand.
You're being to optimistic, stop, you know we don't like to hear that around these parts.

Boondock Saint
07-29-2009, 10:48 PM
**** 'em. That's about all I got.

Thanks for giving a **** towards the end, I guess.

MushMouth
07-29-2009, 10:48 PM
my god I hate the dome

Thought Kotsay's smash was going to get down there... Nice outing by Contreras, did what he could.

hi im skot
07-29-2009, 10:48 PM
We trade BA for Kotsay and Kotsay ends the game. BA would have won it obviously.


Mod Edit: Not tonight, please.

Jerko
07-29-2009, 10:48 PM
I can't wait for the last series there simply so I don't have to hear people bitch about it.


Truthfully, I stopped watching the game, and turned on the radio in about he 4th inning. I didn't see the Alexei slide...was it bad?

This isn't over. Kenny needs to do something about this **** offense, and even ****tier defense. I'm still not giving up on them though.

Get the Yankees, boys. :bandance:

My ignore list grew by leaps and bounds during this series for that very reason. I will clear that list now that we're out of the dome for a while.

Stoky44
07-29-2009, 10:49 PM
Anyone else concerned we might be adding 2 more players to the DL?

Bacon to SS, Fields recalled to play 3B? Who will be the 4th OF?

Baron
07-29-2009, 10:49 PM
Not tonight


my favorite part of that movie :D:

Konerko05
07-29-2009, 10:49 PM
Nope

Not this again.

WhiteSox1989
07-29-2009, 10:49 PM
Not this again.

...it's the only thing we have.

Hey it kept me sane last night.

hi im skot
07-29-2009, 10:49 PM
I can't believe I let myself get excited about this team a few weeks ago.

Pretty sad display, guys.

spongyfungy
07-29-2009, 10:49 PM
Getz didn't run to first and I know he's automatically out but it got me thinking, why not try to deek the catcher and maybe Mauer suffer a brain cramp and throws to first and throws it away. I've seen crazier things happen before and maybe a little bit of luck would head our way. It's wishful thinking but getting swept sucks.

captainclutch24
07-29-2009, 10:50 PM
The Sox will come home for a long stand and be fine, at worst tied for first after this homestand.
:rolling::rolling::rolling::rolling::rolling::roll ing::rolling::rolling::rolling:

doublem23
07-29-2009, 10:50 PM
When I heard the crack of Kotsay's bat, it sounded really good, and I was sure it was landing anywhere except for the rightfielder's glove. Dang it!!!!

I almost jumped off the couch when Kotsay turned on that ball. Anywhere but right to Cuddyer and we string a BS on Joe Nathan.

:angry::angry::angry::angry:

SoxSpeed22
07-29-2009, 10:50 PM
I wish I could cuss right now. You're not going to win too often when you score 8 runs (2 in garbage time) in a series. I'm more concerned with Alexei and TCQ (even though this won't be the last time with him this season). Mitchell (the new guy) and Pena looked good. The best part about this series is that there are 3 less games there.
Let's beat the Yankees, we don't want this to go 2007 on us.

Noneck
07-29-2009, 10:50 PM
Now 7 games ahead versus the AL bests. Oh brother.

WhiteSox1989
07-29-2009, 10:50 PM
What's this with Getz not running to first?

hi im skot
07-29-2009, 10:50 PM
Not this again.

I can put together 30 posts bitching about the dreaded Metrodome, if that'll tickle your fancy.

Get bent.

Red Barchetta
07-29-2009, 10:51 PM
OK, to recap...Our best pitcher throws the first SOX perfect game since 1922 that moves us into a first place tie. We go on the road to play the top two divisional opponents and go 1-6?! :angry:

I really wish I'd see some anger from these guys instead of the professional "get em' tomorrow" response. Sorry, we need a little more passion.

For the glass "half-full" crowd, we're damn lucky we're not 9 games back right now!

Tragg
07-29-2009, 10:51 PM
Didn't this Twins pitching staff get absolutely mauled last week on the west coast? We can barely touch Duensing and he's common.

Like a bunch of zombies.

Marqhead
07-29-2009, 10:51 PM
What's this with Getz not running to first?

1st was occupied. He was out.

OmahaSoxFan
07-29-2009, 10:51 PM
Anyone else concerned we might be adding 2 more players to the DL?

Bacon to SS, Fields recalled to play 3B? Who will be the 4th OF?

Yeah losing Ramirez and Quentin would do us in for the season I think... we can't afford to lose anyone, let alone those two. We have to be optimistic and hope those guys are okay.

What a nightmare tonight was though in that capacity, and you couldn't have expected any less the way things have gone six out of the last seven games. These 1-2 run losses are really going to hurt down the stretch.

Konerko05
07-29-2009, 10:51 PM
Anyone else concerned we might be adding 2 more players to the DL?

Bacon to SS, Fields recalled to play 3B? Who will be the 4th OF?

I'm not sure if the Sox will actually move Beckham back to SS, at least for the remainder of the season.

We might be seeing Nix at SS until Alexei comes back.

Woofer
07-29-2009, 10:51 PM
That was classic Hawk there. I'm thinking one day he will unleash a tirade that would make a sailor blush.:cool:

doublem23
07-29-2009, 10:51 PM
I can't believe I let myself get excited about this team a few weeks ago.

Pretty sad display, guys.

It's just like last year, you got to keep mellow with the highs and lows. Who knows, they're fully capable of ripping off another 10 wins in 11 games or so and take this division lead again.

Honestly, at least the games are still meaningful. I know this up and down bull**** can really wear on you, but I'd take this 10,000x again before I sat through another 2007 death march.

Lindsay Lohan
07-29-2009, 10:51 PM
Hopefully Mr. Ramirez is A OK. :cool:

Marqhead
07-29-2009, 10:52 PM
OK, to recap...Our best pitcher throws the first SOX perfect game since 1922 that moves us into a first place tie. We go on the road to play the top two divisional opponents and go 1-6?! :angry:


Takes a little shine off the perfect game doesn't it?

I miss having a winning team.

hi im skot
07-29-2009, 10:52 PM
That was classic Hawk there. I'm thinking one day he will unleash a tirade that would make a sailor blush.:cool:

I'd pay a lot of money to be the audio engineer after they went to commercial.

Dick Allen
07-29-2009, 10:52 PM
"Let's get 'em tomorrow", blah blah blah. Kiss my ass.:angry::angry:

OmahaSoxFan
07-29-2009, 10:52 PM
Now 7 games ahead versus the AL bests. Oh brother.

Maybe the best will bring out the best in the Sox... Have to hope so right now!

Viva Medias B's
07-29-2009, 10:52 PM
Now 7 games ahead versus the AL bests. Oh brother.

These games aren't at the Metrodome, are they?

WhiteSox1989
07-29-2009, 10:52 PM
Assumptions, assumptions..

I know it sucks when the Sox lose. But here's what I do, I avoid all media outlets, don't watch any sports coverage at all, and I'm good to go..

...I can't even remember what it feels like to win..

bunty_doghunter
07-29-2009, 10:53 PM
Kotsay!!

hi im skot
07-29-2009, 10:53 PM
It's just like last year, you got to keep mellow with the highs and lows. Who knows, they're fully capable of ripping off another 10 wins in 11 games or so and take this division lead again.

Honestly, at least the games are still meaningful. I know this up and down bull**** can really wear on you, but I'd take this 10,000x again before I sat through another 2007 death march.

Totally agree, sir.

Dan H
07-29-2009, 10:53 PM
You had to know once the Twins went up in the sixth, the game was over. Another one-run loss.

What a horrible road trip. Either they start hitting soon or the homestand won't look any different.

Red Barchetta
07-29-2009, 10:53 PM
For those of us living outside of Chicago, what happened to Ramirez and Quentin?

Konerko05
07-29-2009, 10:53 PM
I can put together 30 posts bitching about the dreaded Metrodome, if that'll tickle your fancy.

Get bent.

Yes, tickle my fancy.

GoGoCrede
07-29-2009, 10:53 PM
I can put together 30 posts bitching about the dreaded Metrodome, if that'll tickle your fancy.

Get bent.

I loled at the gif.

It's the AC!!111

Hopefully we got all the losing out of our system before the Yankees.

Boondock Saint
07-29-2009, 10:53 PM
It's just like last year, you got to keep mellow with the highs and lows. Who knows, they're fully capable of ripping off another 10 wins in 11 games or so and take this division lead again.

Honestly, at least the games are still meaningful. I know this up and down bull**** can really wear on you, but I'd take this 10,000x again before I sat through another 2007 death march.

You're right, but at least with 2007 you know exactly what you have and where you're heading.

hi im skot
07-29-2009, 10:53 PM
Yes, tickle my fancy.

Only if you're lucky. :wink:

SephClone89
07-29-2009, 10:53 PM
At least Beckham is still proving beyond all doubt that he's an absolute stud.

ChicagoHoosier
07-29-2009, 10:54 PM
3 more game. Is it really bad luck? Kotsay hit it hard twice for two outs. I'm glad he swung on the first pitch - Nathan had put that first pitch 93 mph fastball out there to each batter. I agree that 5 feet left or right (Stoney said) and we'd be ahead. There is a degree of bad luck. On the other hand, as posters have commented, bad luck doesn't explain 8 runs in 3 games.

I still think we're the team to beat in this average division with two average foes. We have 3 more in Minny, 3 more in Detroit. Lots of home games. Still anyone's division. Hope we don't trade any top prospects, though. Would rather compete with what we have.

WhiteSox1989
07-29-2009, 10:54 PM
For those of us living outside of Chicago, what happened to Ramirez and Quentin?
Quentin hit a home run, and while running the bases he appeared to be limping. He was back out in left the next inning though.

I didn't see the Ramirez slide.

ms620
07-29-2009, 10:54 PM
It's just like last year, you got to keep mellow with the highs and lows. Who knows, they're fully capable of ripping off another 10 wins in 11 games or so and take this division lead again.

Honestly, at least the games are still meaningful. I know this up and down bull**** can really wear on you, but I'd take this 10,000x again before I sat through another 2007 death march.

But I would much rather have a 2005 than a 2008. It is time to realize that this team is just not that good. Has a bunch of great pieces, but it has not come together like it could. Time to focus on improving this team for the long-term, not just focusing on trying to sneak into the playoffs with a mediocre team.

WhiteSox1989
07-29-2009, 10:54 PM
I loled at the gif.

It's the AC!!111

Hopefully we got all the losing out of our system before the Yankees.
STOP TRYING TO JINX US!!!!

:tongue:

AnkleSox
07-29-2009, 10:55 PM
Kotsay!!

I see this ending well.

Tragg
07-29-2009, 10:55 PM
but i would much rather have a 2005 than a 2008. It is time to realize that this team is just not that good. Has a bunch of great pieces, but it has not come together like it could. time to focus on improving this team for the long-term, not just focusing on trying to sneak into the playoffs with a mediocre team.+1

Brian26
07-29-2009, 10:56 PM
I can put together 30 posts bitching about the dreaded Metrodome, if that'll tickle your fancy.

Get bent.

Watch the personal attack, Skot.

Last night's postgame thread was funny, but let's not turn that into a regular occurence. Lay off that avatars and other bull**** tonight. It gets old pretty quickly.

...
07-29-2009, 10:56 PM
+1
-1

Brian26
07-29-2009, 10:56 PM
It's just like last year, you got to keep mellow with the highs and lows. Who knows, they're fully capable of ripping off another 10 wins in 11 games or so and take this division lead again.

Honestly, at least the games are still meaningful. I know this up and down bull**** can really wear on you, but I'd take this 10,000x again before I sat through another 2007 death march.

As long as the Sox take care of business at home, this thing should go down to the wire. It's going to be a fun last two months.

DrCrawdad
07-29-2009, 10:57 PM
What new?

Same story, different day and yet I'm still...

:angry:

WhiteSox1989
07-29-2009, 10:57 PM
-1
does that leave us at 0?

hi im skot
07-29-2009, 10:57 PM
Watch the personal attack, Skot.

Last night's postgame thread was funny, but let's not turn that into a regular occurence. Lay off that avatars and other bull**** tonight. It gets old pretty quickly.

I'd much rather stick around to hear the bitchfest tonight.

ChicagoHoosier
07-29-2009, 10:57 PM
TCM (Alice)'s slide into 2nd looked really awkward. Honestly, I wouldn't mind seeing Beckham at short. But, Nix would play SS and Bacon would stay at 3rd, right? That Crede guy would look great at 3B for us, wouldn't he?

Love the other post. What's better? 2007 and knowing you suck or 2008/2009 where you're close and COULD compete, but then do stupid stuff or lose one run games a LOT? I'll take 09.

WhiteSox1989
07-29-2009, 10:57 PM
As long as the Sox take care of business at home, this thing should go down to the wire. It's going to be a fun last two months.
Thank you for being sane.

Shoeless
07-29-2009, 10:58 PM
-1

/3

Anyway, that was bad. I'm glad that Nix and Beck still somewhat owned up.

...
07-29-2009, 10:58 PM
does that leave us at 0?

There was no sign so I think you multiply...

Marqhead
07-29-2009, 10:58 PM
As long as the Sox take care of business at home, this thing should go down to the wire. It's going to be a fun last two months.

Try telling that to my liver.

Patrick134
07-29-2009, 10:58 PM
As long as the Sox take care of business at home, this thing should go down to the wire. It's going to be a fun last two months.

Amen. How fun was last year's blackout game ? That was awesome, and even as a huge fan i didn't think the Sox would beat the Rays.

doublem23
07-29-2009, 10:58 PM
But I would much rather have a 2005 than a 2008. It is time to realize that this team is just not that good. Has a bunch of great pieces, but it has not come together like it could. Time to focus on improving this team for the long-term, not just focusing on trying to sneak into the playoffs with a mediocre team.

Well, I guess it depends on how you look at things, but I think the Sox have always looked at 2009 as a transition to a brighter future. KW is usually willing to push his chips in when he thinks he has a winning hand, I'm sure he privately doesn't like this group's chances in the post-season, so he's staying put and hopefully looking toward next year and beyond.

I'm still very excited about this team's future; there are a lot of good, young players already here (Beckham, Danks, Floyd, etc.) and a few intriguing guys on the way, plus there will be a lot of payroll turnover the next few years.

Maybe this way is more frustrating, but no one wants to see the Sox blow the whole thing up, start from Square 1, and win 65 games this year. That sucks.

BoysMom3
07-29-2009, 10:59 PM
I almost jumped off the couch when Kotsay turned on that ball. Anywhere but right to Cuddyer and we string a BS on Joe Nathan.

:angry::angry::angry::angry:

Me too - I ended up smacking my couch really hard instead.

It's just like last year, you got to keep mellow with the highs and lows. Who knows, they're fully capable of ripping off another 10 wins in 11 games or so and take this division lead again.

Honestly, at least the games are still meaningful. I know this up and down bull**** can really wear on you, but I'd take this 10,000x again before I sat through another 2007 death march.

Totally agree. I was very pleased with how things ended last year, what with how it was looking. I'll take that again any day over 2007. So long as the Twins didn't waltz off with the first place that mostly ours all summer, I was happy.

Shoeless
07-29-2009, 10:59 PM
Try telling that to my liver.
Yeah, I don't know that i'm going to remember much of these next two months.:gulp:

Viva Medias B's
07-29-2009, 10:59 PM
I wonder how the Bears, Northwestern, and Illinois have fared in that building against the Vikings and Gophers, respectively, compared to us against the Twins over the years.

infohawk
07-29-2009, 11:00 PM
Yep. The way to look at it is that the Sox only have three more games in that dump. Some of our bad play in the Metrodome can't be blamed on the Metrodome per se, but it's no coincidence that we don't play well there. It really comes down to the fast infield, team speed of the Twins, and less than ideal Sox defense over the years. If the Twins are built to play there, our Sox have been the opposite. My guess is that the Twins will need to reconfigure their team once they move into the open air stadium. Their poke and run offense won't do as well, and their team speed, while still a strength, won't be quite as much of an advantage on grass as it is on turf. Add cold, wet weather into the mix and they could really see a fall-off in their home record with the team they have now.

That's the most excitement we've had against Nathan in a long time! Too bad the ball was hit right at Cuddyer. Off the bat I thought we'd go up by one. Kotsay did what he could and hit the ball hard.

Don't be dispirited everyone! It's a close race and we have two months to go. A lot can happen over two months in a tight race. Let's see if KW does anything by the deadline. Even if he doesn't, we still have a chance and I really like how the Sox are setting up for the future. Our minor league system is deeper than it's been in a long time and the team has financial flexibility. Onward Sox!

hi im skot
07-29-2009, 11:00 PM
Amen. How fun was last year's blackout game ? That was awesome, and even as a huge fan i didn't think the Sox would beat the Rays.

Last year we had more than just remnants of a pitching staff...

cws05champ
07-29-2009, 11:00 PM
Kotsay couldn't have hit it any harder. Of course, Casilla's hit to score the game-winner was a patented bloop.

Hope Ramirez is OK.

That pissed me off more than anything. What the **** was Pods playing so deep for in CF with Alexi ****ing Casiila up and 2 outs? I mean if he hits it over your head, fine he gets a triple and the run scores. But you can't allow these little bloops and dinks.

ms620
07-29-2009, 11:01 PM
Well, I guess it depends on how you look at things, but I think the Sox have always looked at 2009 as a transition to a brighter future. KW is usually willing to push his chips in when he thinks he has a winning hand, I'm sure he privately doesn't like this group's chances in the post-season, so he's staying put and hopefully looking toward next year and beyond.

I'm still very excited about this team's future; there are a lot of good, young players already here (Beckham, Danks, Floyd, etc.) and a few intriguing guys on the way, plus there will be a lot of payroll turnover the next few years.

Maybe this way is more frustrating, but no one wants to see the Sox blow the whole thing up, start from Square 1, and win 65 games this year. That sucks.

But that is the thing..i do not know why people think that trading a couple pieces turns this in to a 65 win team. It amazes me. lets just say the Sox trade Jermaine and Dotel....you can could a pretty good return for this. I think Kenny will have plenty of options to take care of the holes they left for next season, while making this team a ton stronger moving forward. There is no reason to think that with decent replacements that next years team could not be just as good as this one.

chisoxfanatic
07-29-2009, 11:01 PM
Thank god my feed was behind. Were the Twins celebrating on the field like last time we got swept there?
They were much worse after last year's sweep...The camera was focused on Carlos Gomez, and I wanted to punch my TV. Fortunately, we got the last laugh five days later.
I'd pay a lot of money to be the audio engineer after they went to commercial.
Right now, my favorite rant in sports broadcasting history was Pat Foley's right after Alexander Karpovtsev was traded. That could very well top Foley's if Hawk did it right.

WhiteSox1989
07-29-2009, 11:01 PM
Yep. They way to look at it is that the Sox only have three more games in that dump. Some of our bad play in the Metrodome can't be blamed on the Metrodome per se, but it's no coincidence that we don't play well there. It really comes down to the fast infield, team speed of the Twins, and less than ideal Sox defense over the years. If the Twins are built to play there, our Sox have been the opposite. My guess is that the Twins will need to reconfigure their team once they move into the open air stadium. Their poke and run offense won't do as well, and their team speed, while still a strength, won't be quite as much of an advantage on grass as it is on turf. Add cold, wet weather into the mix and they could really see a fall-off in their home record with the team they have now.

That's the most excitement we've had against Nathan in a long time! Too bad the ball was hit right at Cuddyer. Off the bat I thought we'd go up by one. Kotsay did what he could and hit the ball hard.

Don't be dispirited everyone! It's a close race and we have two months to go. A lot can happen over two months in a tight race. Let's see if KW does anything by the deadline. Even if he doesn't, we still have a chance and I really like how the Sox are setting up for the future. Our minor league system is deeper than it's been in a long time and the team has financial flexibility. Onward Sox!

Brilliant. I agree with all of this. I get aggravated just as much as everyone else does about this team. There's no point in bitching and moaning though. The Sox, at time have displayed what a solid baseball team they are. And that alone just give me a little bit of solid hope.

Marqhead
07-29-2009, 11:02 PM
Well, I guess it depends on how you look at things, but I think the Sox have always looked at 2009 as a transition to a brighter future. KW is usually willing to push his chips in when he thinks he has a winning hand, I'm sure he privately doesn't like this group's chances in the post-season, so he's staying put and hopefully looking toward next year and beyond.

I'm still very excited about this team's future; there are a lot of good, young players already here (Beckham, Danks, Floyd, etc.) and a few intriguing guys on the way, plus there will be a lot of payroll turnover the next few years.

Maybe this way is more frustrating, but no one wants to see the Sox blow the whole thing up, start from Square 1, and win 65 games this year. That sucks.

I posted this in the BA/Kotsay thread. I'm fine with the transistion year idea if it means they fill the holes with off season trades and free agency. If they don't, and we go into next season with virtually the same roster, I will be very displeased with the White Sox organization.

The current suckage that is this season is totally worth it if it forces KW and JR to upgrade the club this off season.

soltrain21
07-29-2009, 11:02 PM
At least Ramirez's slide gave me some new footage for the Benny Hill theme montage I'm working on for the last day in the dome.

doublem23
07-29-2009, 11:02 PM
Last year we had more than just remnants of a pitching staff...

Jose had another good outing tonight, and Richard has (fingers crossed) figured a few things out. Plus this Williams kid looked all right tonight.

As long as we're just a few games out, these games are still important, and I guess that's all we can ask for at this point. :shrug:

Boondock Saint
07-29-2009, 11:02 PM
Try telling that to my liver.

Tell it to the blood vessels in my brain. I'm half expecting blood to shoot out my ears and eyes one of these games.

malbert346
07-29-2009, 11:03 PM
I may just have this series on the mind right now, but it seems that the bulk of the losses over the last 2 years have been the result of timely hits by the WORST hitters in the Twin lineups. How does Casilla, batting in the .160 range, get all of those hits this series? How does Carlos Gomez reach base that many times without doing the expected bunt and sprint? And sure enough, Mauer and Morneau didn't have much of an effect once again. For the love of all that's sacred, if you're going to lose, lose to the guys that are supposed to beat you. Losing to triple-A trash pours salt in the wound.

And so do the number of beach balls that find their way onto the field, but that's irrelevant. Incredibly annoying but irrelevant nonetheless.

Jerko
07-29-2009, 11:04 PM
I may just have this series on the mind right now, but it seems that the bulk of the losses over the last 2 years have been the result of timely hits by the WORST hitters in the Twin lineups. How does Casilla, batting in the .160 range, get all of those hits this series? How does Carlos Gomez reach base that many times without doing the expected bunt and sprint? And sure enough, Mauer and Morneau didn't have much of an effect once again. For the love of all that's sacred, if you're going to lose, lose to the guys that are supposed to beat you. Losing to triple-A trash pours salt in the wound.

And so do the number of beach balls that find their way onto the field, but that's irrelevant. Incredibly annoying but irrelevant nonetheless.

True. Before it was Kielty, Punto, and Tyner, now we have the new 3 stooges.

hi im skot
07-29-2009, 11:05 PM
Jose had another good outing tonight, and Richard has (fingers crossed) figured a few things out. Plus this Williams kid looked all right tonight.

As long as we're just a few games out, these games are still important, and I guess that's all we can ask for at this point. :shrug:

Fair points, though Contreras still scares the crap out of me every time he pitches. Richard had some quality starts before he had his rough patch, and now he's got a couple more. I'll still be surprised if both are in the rotation by September.

I still agree that it's nice to play meaningful games in August and September, but man...it's tough to feel too good about them right now.

doublem23
07-29-2009, 11:05 PM
But that is the thing..i do not know why people think that trading a couple pieces turns this in to a 65 win team. It amazes me. lets just say the Sox trade Jermaine and Dotel....you can could a pretty good return for this. I think Kenny will have plenty of options to take care of the holes they left for next season, while making this team a ton stronger moving forward. There is no reason to think that with decent replacements that next years team could not be just as good as this one.

Jermaine and Dotel are both potential FAs at the end of the year, so any club that picks them up are both looking at potential rent-a-players who may end up costing them draft picks in 2010 (all the rage in front offices right now). Plus, at least in the case of JD, there's still plenty good reason to bring him back in 2010, especially if the Sox cut ties with Thome.

This Sox team is a very good team when it's hitting the ball. They are, by some miracle, hanging around the postseason hunt this year again. There is no reason to trade anyone off the 25-man roster at this point. See what they can do, maybe they'll surprise us.

Boondock Saint
07-29-2009, 11:06 PM
I may just have this series on the mind right now, but it seems that the bulk of the losses over the last 2 years have been the result of timely hits by the WORST hitters in the Twin lineups. How does Casilla, batting in the .160 range, get all of those hits this series? How does Carlos Gomez reach base that many times without doing the expected bunt and sprint? And sure enough, Mauer and Morneau didn't have much of an effect once again. For the love of all that's sacred, if you're going to lose, lose to the guys that are supposed to beat you. Losing to triple-A trash pours salt in the wound.

Not much to argue with there. It's absolutely baffling/infuriating.

Lillian
07-29-2009, 11:06 PM
I didn't feel like reading all of the other posts, but has anyone raised the issue of why Beckham didn't move over to short with Nix going to third, after Alexei had to leave the game? Why would you play both guys out of position? Beckham has played most of his career at SS, and Nix has had some experience at Third. Doesn't it make much more sense to play them there?

I've been arguing this point for a while now, but it will be interesting to see if they give Gordon a chance to play his regular position, at least until Alexei comes back.

Brian26
07-29-2009, 11:07 PM
True. Before it was Kielty, Punto, and Tyner, now we have the new 3 stooges.

Don't forget Denny Hocking.

soltrain21
07-29-2009, 11:07 PM
I didn't feel like reading all of the other posts, but has anyone raised the issue of why Beckham didn't move over to short with Nix going to third, after Alexei had to leave the game? Why would you play both guys out of position? Beckham has played most of his career at SS, and Nix has had some experience at Third. Doesn't it make much more sense to play them there?

I've been arguing this point for a while now, but it will be interesting to see if they give Gordon a chance to play his regular position, at least until Alexei comes back.

I don't think Beckham is playing out of position anymore. That is sort of...his position.

ms620
07-29-2009, 11:07 PM
Jermaine and Dotel are both potential FAs at the end of the year, so any club that picks them up are both looking at potential rent-a-players who may end up costing them draft picks in 2010 (all the rage in front offices right now). Plus, at least in the case of JD, there's still plenty good reason to bring him back in 2010, especially if the Sox cut ties with Thome.

This Sox team is a very good team when it's hitting the ball. They are, by some miracle, hanging around the postseason hunt this year again. There is no reason to trade anyone off the 25-man roster at this point. See what they can do, maybe they'll surprise us.

How would trading for Jermaine cost a team draft picks?

Jurr
07-29-2009, 11:07 PM
I am hoping the wheels fall off so that Kenny has no choice but to dump his gaggle of overpriced sluggers. Watch the teams fail to line up to scoop them up. I understand that not everyone can be a five tool player. Thome is a one tool player. Konerko? One and a half. Salary? Way too much. Don't give me that great leadership crap, either. Under Konerko's leadership, his boys can't win A GAME in the metrodome. Useless. Get these steroid era relics off our roster. The money saved would be extrely useful. I'm talking three or four veterans useful, much the same way Magglio's release led to the fiancial leverage to sign players such as Dye, AJ, and El Duque. This is the first step towards righting the ship. Roast me at will, but you'll believe me at some point. The days of putting big bucks into pull happy sluggers that can't run are over.

Boondock Saint
07-29-2009, 11:08 PM
I didn't feel like reading all of the other posts, but has anyone raised the issue of why Beckham didn't move over to short with Nix going to third, after Alexei had to leave the game? Why would you play both guys out of position? Beckham has played most of his career at SS, and Nix has had some experience at Third. Doesn't it make much more sense to play them there?

I've been arguing this point for a while now, but it will be interesting to see if they give Gordon a chance to play his regular position, at least until Alexei comes back.

I'm guessing that either the Sox have made up their minds, and want Beckham at 3rd to stay, or Ozzie thought it would be a bad idea to jumble the entire infield mid-game.

doublem23
07-29-2009, 11:08 PM
I still agree that it's nice to play meaningful games in August and September, but man...it's tough to feel too good about them right now.

I agree. All you can do at this point is just keep looking at the GB column and tell yourself that 3 games can be made up very quickly.

I know people don't like the idea of "sneaking into the postseason," but I don't care. Making the play-offs in baseball is very difficult. Any season that ends in a post-season berth, no matter how short, is a rousing success. It could still happen this year.

ms620
07-29-2009, 11:09 PM
Jermaine and Dotel are both potential FAs at the end of the year, so any club that picks them up are both looking at potential rent-a-players who may end up costing them draft picks in 2010 (all the rage in front offices right now). Plus, at least in the case of JD, there's still plenty good reason to bring him back in 2010, especially if the Sox cut ties with Thome.

This Sox team is a very good team when it's hitting the ball. They are, by some miracle, hanging around the postseason hunt this year again. There is no reason to trade anyone off the 25-man roster at this point. See what they can do, maybe they'll surprise us.

so if they are a very good team when they are hitting the ball...i gues they have only hit the ball consistantly for 7 games. Take that winning streak out and they are 7 under .500 for the majority of the season. I wish the sox were a great team..but the fact is as much as you try to convince yourself, the sox are mediocre...exactly what their record tells you.

WhiteSox1989
07-29-2009, 11:10 PM
Fair points, though Contreras still scares the crap out of me every time he pitches. Richard had some quality starts before he had his rough patch, and now he's got a couple more. I'll still be surprised if both are in the rotation by September.

I still agree that it's nice to play meaningful games in August and September, but man...it's tough to feel too good about them right now.

To be honest, Buehrle is the only pitcher I feel confident with. Richard has been solid his past two outings, but I would need to see him pitch well in a couple more starts to actually feel secure about the Sox with him on the mound.

But really, it's amazing that the Sox have come this far with that rotation. Sans Buehrle (and Floyd as of late) nobody has been too impressive (consistently, at least).

soltrain21
07-29-2009, 11:10 PM
Not this again.

Sorry, dude. We will never try to take an activity where a bunch of grown ups hit a ball with a wooden stick lighthearted ever again.

Back to the funeral.

doublem23
07-29-2009, 11:10 PM
How would trading for Jermaine cost a team draft picks?

His option for 2010 is mutual, if he chooses to opt out, he will likely be a Type-A F/A (he's had the most HR of any OF since he came to the Sox, IIRC), and at worst a Type B. Either way, he would cost his imaginary new team draft picks in the 2010 Draft.

Boondock Saint
07-29-2009, 11:11 PM
so if they are a very good team when they are hitting the ball...i gues they have only hit the ball consistantly for 7 games. Take that winning streak out and they are 7 under .500 for the majority of the season. I wish the sox were a great team..but the fact is as much as you try to convince yourself, the sox are mediocre...exactly what their record tells you.

This post is broken.

Jurr
07-29-2009, 11:11 PM
I agree. All you can do at this point is just keep looking at the GB column and tell yourself that 3 games can be made up very quickly.

I know people don't like the idea of "sneaking into the postseason," but I don't care. Making the play-offs in baseball is very difficult. Any season that ends in a post-season berth, no matter how short, is a rousing success. It could still happen this year.

Sneaking in gave Kenny more good will towards keeping a lineup together that is fundamentally flawed and way overpriced. This cannot continue.

doublem23
07-29-2009, 11:12 PM
so if they are a very good team when they are hitting the ball...i gues they have only hit the ball consistantly for 7 games. Take that winning streak out and they are 7 under .500 for the majority of the season. I wish the sox were a great team..but the fact is as much as you try to convince yourself, the sox are mediocre...exactly what their record tells you.

3 gb, 3 gb, 3 gb

GoGoCrede
07-29-2009, 11:12 PM
To be honest, Buehrle is the only pitcher I feel confident with. Richard has been solid his past two outings, but I would need to see him pitch well in a couple more starts to actually feel secure about the Sox with him on the mound.

But really, it's amazing that the Sox have come this far with that rotation. Sans Buehrle (and Floyd as of late) nobody has been too impressive (consistently, at least).

Floyd's been pretty consistent after an awful start. He's not the same guy he was in the beginning of the season. I feel confident about him, too (well, duh. Look at my sig. :D:).

malbert346
07-29-2009, 11:13 PM
And while we're lamenting the bad karmic juju of the Horrordome, here's something to chew on. You can't fault a team for tailoring itself to win in its own park (obviously), but is it possible to take that too far? In other words, why are the Twins so mediocre when it comes to playing anywhere else?

Are they just that much better against the Sox in the dome? Are the White Sox mental midgets in that place? In other words, when a team plays that well in that place, is it because they're actually good or because they're just tailored to that one park which is unlike many others?

ms620
07-29-2009, 11:13 PM
3 gb, 3 gb, 3 gb

The GB column does not tell you how good a team is. Just like the amount of wins a pitcher has is a misleading stat. If the sox were 10 under .500 but only 3 gb..would you consider them a good team?

Lillian
07-29-2009, 11:13 PM
Regarding my previous post concerning my preference of Beckham at SS and Nix at third, I think their natural tools favor that configuration as well. Nix has the quickness and arm for third, but lacks the range for SS. Gordon is sort of the reverse.

Marqhead
07-29-2009, 11:14 PM
Floyd's been pretty consistent after an awful start. He's not the same guy he was in the beginning of the season. I feel confident about him, too (well, duh. Look at my sig. :D:).

Buehrle, Danks, Floyd, Contreras, and Richard as of late. They've all been pretty solid.

It's the inconsistency and plain garbage approach by the offense for the entire season that worries me going into each game.

hi im skot
07-29-2009, 11:15 PM
The GB column does not tell you how good a team is. Just like the amount of wins a pitcher has is a misleading stat. If the sox were 10 under .500 but only 3 gb..would you consider them a good team?

I'd say they probably play in the NL West of 2005.

Marqhead
07-29-2009, 11:15 PM
The GB column does not tell you how good a team is. Just like the amount of wins a pitcher has is a misleading stat. If the sox were 10 under .500 but only 3 gb..would you consider them a good team?

But it tells you how many game out of the playoffs you are, and 3 at the end of July is not a lot.

Mediocre? Yes. Out of contention, no.

doublem23
07-29-2009, 11:16 PM
Sneaking in gave Kenny more good will towards keeping a lineup together that is fundamentally flawed and way overpriced. This cannot continue.

And that lineup is about to enter a period of extreme payroll turnover.

Thome's contract ends after this season.
Jermaine's contract has a mutual option for 2010 or a $3 million buyout after this year.
Konerko's contract ends after 2010
Contreras's contract ends at the end of this year.
A.J.'s contract ends after 2010.

The Sox are suddenly going to be flush with money. Keep the patience, I really think there is a method to all this madness, and it will pay off down the road.

GoGoCrede
07-29-2009, 11:16 PM
Buehrle, Danks, Floyd, Contreras, and Richard as of late. They've all been pretty solid.

It's the inconsistency and plain garbage approach by the offense for the entire season that worries me going into each game.

Yep. Pitching is not our main problem. Richard in particular has been good. A few of them have been as unlucky as Danks was last season when it comes to getting NDs.

LoveYourSuit
07-29-2009, 11:16 PM
As long as the Sox take care of business at home, this thing should go down to the wire. It's going to be a fun last two months.

I see no fun in this.

Win two games, then lose two.

Where's the fun there :scratch:

doublem23
07-29-2009, 11:16 PM
The GB column does not tell you how good a team is. Just like the amount of wins a pitcher has is a misleading stat. If the sox were 10 under .500 but only 3 gb..would you consider them a good team?

I'd rather be mediocre and in than good and out.

Marqhead
07-29-2009, 11:16 PM
And that lineup is about to enter a period of extreme payroll turnover.

Thome's contract ends after this season.
Jermaine's contract has a mutual option for 2010 or a $3 million buyout after this year.
Konerko's contract ends after 2010
Contreras's contract ends at the end of this year.
A.J.'s contract ends after 2010.

The Sox are suddenly going to be flush with money. Keep the patience, I really think there is a method to all this madness, and it will pay off down the road.

This is always at the back of my mind day in and day out. I'm excited about this team's future if the right moves are made, and I have faith that Kenny will make them.

hawkjt
07-29-2009, 11:17 PM
Last thursday seems like a year ago now. We were 50-45 and at the highpoint of the year...now it seems like MB's perfecto will be the high point of the season. It is wierd how he commented afterward how in 07 the team lost five in a row after his no-no.
Bottom line, the team has quit hitting the last week. They had a very nice 6 week run of hitting the ball as a team but the last week PK,JD,Alexei,Thome,and Pods have all gone dead at the plate.
It is a shame. They fought hard for 6 weeks to get back from 6 under .500 to 5 over, and now in a week, back to .500 with yanks and angels waiting.
The Sox had good chances at Verlander on a bad day,Jackson,Perkins,dustein, and Baker...now, they face good pitching vs yanks and angels.
Tough day to be a sox fan. Stay healthy Alexei and Carlos..we need ya.

GoGoCrede
07-29-2009, 11:17 PM
Regarding Alexei's injury, Gonazles just posted this on Twitter

Ramirez right ankle sprain. On crutches. Will have x-rays Thursday.

Shoeless
07-29-2009, 11:18 PM
I see no fun in this.

Win two games, then lose two.

Where's the fun there :scratch:

2007: Win 1 game, lose 6

Take your pick?

hi im skot
07-29-2009, 11:19 PM
2007: Win 1 game, lose 6

Take your pick?

What's behind door number 3?

soltrain21
07-29-2009, 11:19 PM
2007: Win 1 game, lose 6

Take your pick?

2007. Luis Terrero was a good punch line.

Jurr
07-29-2009, 11:20 PM
Floyd's been pretty consistent after an awful start. He's not the same guy he was in the beginning of the season. I feel confident about him, too (well, duh. Look at my sig. :D:).

We are seeing too much great starting pitching wasted by an offense that will not change from its makeup.
Case in point - the 9th inning. Beckham gets on. Does he run? Does he give Nathan something to worry about other than making a pitch? Nope. Why? This offense waits for the savior in the form of a two run bomb. Let's say Dye strikes out on that slider, but now Beckham's on second with one out. Are you afraid of getting him thrown out? Well, Nathan and Gardenhire know that Ozzie is because the homer threats are up. My point is that there was never a thought about getting Gordon over and in to tie it up. It was all about the homer to take the lead. That is why they fail and why a fix is needed, much the same as '04 leading to '05.

WhiteSox1989
07-29-2009, 11:20 PM
Regarding Alexei's injury, Gonazles just posted this on Twitter

Ramirez right ankle sprain. On crutches. Will have x-rays Thursday.
No bueno.

GoGoCrede
07-29-2009, 11:20 PM
What's behind door number 3?

A brand new Mercedes.

What's everyone's impressions of Kotsay thus far?

malbert346
07-29-2009, 11:20 PM
What's behind door number 3?

The Terry Bevington era.

Jerko
07-29-2009, 11:21 PM
I have more faith that the Sox will do well against Yanks and Angels than the crap they played the last 2 series. Beat Tampa 3 of 4 and go 1-6 against Tigers and these idiots? Well, that's why they play the games I guess.

doublem23
07-29-2009, 11:21 PM
I see no fun in this.

Win two games, then lose two.

Where's the fun there :scratch:

http://graphics8.nytimes.com/images/2008/10/05/sports/05blackout.600.jpg

This was a lot of fun, I thought. :D:

chisoxfanatic
07-29-2009, 11:21 PM
Sneaking in gave Kenny more good will towards keeping a lineup together that is fundamentally flawed and way overpriced. This cannot continue.
Would you have rather all 40,000 of us who were at the Blackout game have to see Carlos Gomez stripping down and parading around the warning track for us?

Regardless of how we do, I'll take the postseason birth over almost making it any day of the week.

BoysMom3
07-29-2009, 11:22 PM
At least Beckham is still proving beyond all doubt that he's an absolute stud.

No kidding, right?!

Jurr
07-29-2009, 11:22 PM
And that lineup is about to enter a period of extreme payroll turnover.

Thome's contract ends after this season.
Jermaine's contract has a mutual option for 2010 or a $3 million buyout after this year.
Konerko's contract ends after 2010
Contreras's contract ends at the end of this year.
A.J.'s contract ends after 2010.

The Sox are suddenly going to be flush with money. Keep the patience, I really think there is a method to all this madness, and it will pay off down the road.
This excites me to the same degree that losing Maggs, Lee, and manos did in '04. You have to change this core, because we know what we're getting here.

chisoxfanatic
07-29-2009, 11:23 PM
This was a lot of fun, I thought. :D:
It was fun being there, but we have to win 5 of the next 6 games against them if we want the game to be in our ballpark (if necessary) this time. There won't be a coin-flip this year. Head-to-head record determines HFA with the tie-breaker being the higher runs scored in head-to-head games.

Jurr
07-29-2009, 11:25 PM
Would you have rather all 40,000 of us who were at the Blackout game have to see Carlos Gomez stripping down and parading around the warning track for us?

Regardless of how we do, I'll take the postseason birth over almost making it any day of the week.

I know what you're saying. I was at the playoff win last year. Great time. However, it lessened the pressure for the complete offensive overhaul that was best for the organization. It's coming, though.

ms620
07-29-2009, 11:26 PM
But it tells you how many game out of the playoffs you are, and 3 at the end of July is not a lot.

Mediocre? Yes. Out of contention, no.

But here is the point. Most would agree that the Sox are not gonna win the world series this year. The sox do not have control over how many games back or up they are in their division. They have control over their record, and how good they are. The sox do not have control over how good the Tigers are or how good the Twins are. Or Royals or Indians. KW has to try to make this team good in general, not just good for a weak AL central. If the Tigers become a 95 win team next year, the sox will have no chance if they are a .500 ballclub.

Marqhead
07-29-2009, 11:29 PM
But here is the point. Most would agree that the Sox are not gonna win the world series this year. The sox do not have control over how many games back or up they are in their division. They have control over their record, and how good they are. The sox do not have control over how good the Tigers are or how good the Twins are. Or Royals or Indians. KW has to try to make this team good in general, not just good for a weak AL central. If the Tigers become a 95 win team next year, the sox will have no chance if they are a .500 ballclub.

Agreed, and as has been said in a number of other posts this season has been used as a measuring stick for many of the young players in the organization. Most of them haven't worked out, and with a lot of money coming off the books in the next two years, plus a solid core of young players already in place the Sox have a real good chance to make moves to become a 95-100 win team.

BadBobbyJenks
07-29-2009, 11:29 PM
Sorry, dude. We will never try to take an activity where a bunch of grown ups hit a ball with a wooden stick lighthearted ever again.

Back to the funeral.

I lol'd a couple of times.

LoveYourSuit
07-29-2009, 11:32 PM
And that lineup is about to enter a period of extreme payroll turnover.

Thome's contract ends after this season.
Jermaine's contract has a mutual option for 2010 or a $3 million buyout after this year.
Konerko's contract ends after 2010
Contreras's contract ends at the end of this year.
A.J.'s contract ends after 2010.

The Sox are suddenly going to be flush with money. Keep the patience, I really think there is a method to all this madness, and it will pay off down the road.


I know you mock me all the time by referring to me as the "resident accountant."

But I don't see where this "flush of money" will be.

Assuming all the raises and contract extension to the young core of this team, a good portion of those funds will be soaked up right there.

An no playoffs this year, I guarantee the gate and season ticket commitments will take even a bigger hit next season.

voodoochile
07-29-2009, 11:34 PM
But here is the point. Most would agree that the Sox are not gonna win the world series this year. The sox do not have control over how many games back or up they are in their division. They have control over their record, and how good they are. The sox do not have control over how good the Tigers are or how good the Twins are. Or Royals or Indians. KW has to try to make this team good in general, not just good for a weak AL central. If the Tigers become a 95 win team next year, the sox will have no chance if they are a .500 ballclub.

I'm just curious, what does it matter? Trading off the FA's to be won't get the Sox anything much unless they dump Dye or PK which I really hope they don't as it will mean an extended rebuilding time.

Maybe Dotel could bring back a middling prospect, but probably not. Contreras? Again, who knows, probably not much.

None of these moves will add a serious prospect and will crush any chance they have this year of making the playoffs again.

Whether this team is destined for third place or a serious run at a pennant is yet to be determined, but there's no point in dismantling it, so might as well enjoy the ride and see how it plays out.

At least TCQ is finding a comfort zone. Here's hoping TCM isn't out for an extended period of time. The Sox still have plenty of head to head chances with the Twinkies and Kittens to make up the games they are back. Yes, it's a hard schedule, but with the team coming home, who knows what can happen.

doublem23
07-29-2009, 11:37 PM
I know you mock me all the time by referring to me as the "resident accountant."

But I don't see where this "flush of money" will be.

Assuming all the raises and contract extension to the young core of this team, a good portion of those funds will be soaked up right there.

An no playoffs this year, I guarantee the gate and season ticket commitments will take even a bigger hit next season.

The 5 guys I named (Thome, Konerko, Dye, AJ, and Jose) make a combined $56.5 million (58.8% of our payroll in 2009). I'm not talking about where the money is coming from, I'm merely telling you were it's going.

And don't put the horse in front of the cart yet, there's no guarantee on who is winning the 2009 AL Central derby just yet.

Boondock Saint
07-29-2009, 11:38 PM
I know you mock me all the time by referring to me as the "resident accountant."

But I don't see where this "flush of money" will be.

Assuming all the raises and contract extension to the young core of this team, a good portion of those funds will be soaked up right there.

An no playoffs this year, I guarantee the gate and season ticket commitments will take even a bigger hit next season.

I could be forgetting a name or two, but there's Danks, Quentin and who else? Surely that isn't going to cost as much we're going to be getting back.

WhiteSox1989
07-29-2009, 11:41 PM
I'm just curious, what does it matter? Trading off the FA's to be won't get the Sox anything much unless they dump Dye or PK which I really hope they don't as it will mean an extended rebuilding time.

Maybe Dotel could bring back a middling prospect, but probably not. Contreras? Again, who knows, probably not much.

None of these moves will add a serious prospect and will crush any chance they have this year of making the playoffs again.

Whether this team is destined for third place or a serious run at a pennant is yet to be determined, but there's no point in dismantling it, so might as well enjoy the ride and see how it plays out.

At least TCQ is finding a comfort zone. Here's hoping TCM isn't out for an extended period of time. The Sox still have plenty of head to head chances with the Twinkies and Kittens to make up the games they are back. Yes, it's a hard schedule, but with the team coming home, who knows what can happen.

I like the outlook you have. Mostly because you're realistic, but you're not all doom and gloom. I don't think this Sox team is perfect. I am hoping Kenny get something done before Friday--just tweak the team a bit.


Yet I don't think the Sox are completely awful. I know the defense has looked like than desirable these past couple games, but I try to keep in mind they have two rookies in the infield, and the other is in his second season (who also switched positions). I can't say much about PK, because he's solid at 1b. I'm not trying to make up excuses for the ****ty defense, but sometimes it's just growing pains.

But there's just no justification for the lack offense.

DickAllen72
07-29-2009, 11:45 PM
I'm just curious, what does it matter? Trading off the FA's to be won't get the Sox anything much unless they dump Dye or PK which I really hope they don't as it will mean an extended rebuilding time.

Maybe Dotel could bring back a middling prospect, but probably not. Contreras? Again, who knows, probably not much.

None of these moves will add a serious prospect and will crush any chance they have this year of making the playoffs again.

Whether this team is destined for third place or a serious run at a pennant is yet to be determined, but there's no point in dismantling it, so might as well enjoy the ride and see how it plays out.

At least TCQ is finding a comfort zone. Here's hoping TCM isn't out for an extended period of time. The Sox still have plenty of head to head chances with the Twinkies and Kittens to make up the games they are back. Yes, it's a hard schedule, but with the team coming home, who knows what can happen.
Excellent post! You sum up the situation perfectly.

When I read people post that they should sell, I say to myself, "Sell whom and for whom?" Now, if we're talking about selling guys like Fields, or non-top tier prospects, I say go for it. I hope KW does make a move or two over the next couple of days to help the team this year. But selling off guys like Dye, Konerko, Contreras, AJ, etc. will only weaken the team both this year and next.

voodoochile
07-29-2009, 11:48 PM
I like the outlook you have. Mostly because you're realistic, but you're not all doom and gloom. I don't think this Sox team is perfect. I am hoping Kenny get something done before Friday--just tweak the team a bit.


Yet I don't think the Sox are completely awful. I know the defense has looked like than desirable these past couple games, but I try to keep in mind they have two rookies in the infield, and the other is in his second season (who also switched positions). I can't say much about PK, because he's solid at 1b. I'm not trying to make up excuses for the ****ty defense, but sometimes it's just growing pains.

But there's just no justification for the lack offense.

Offense has been extra streaky this year which makes it hard to get in a rhythm. I think we've had some bad offensive breaks in a couple of these game recently - Quentin's ninth inning liner on Monday (hit's it 3 feet higher, it's 10 rows deep) and Kotsay's ninth inning shot tonight. Hitting a couple of them right at defenders isn't helping things at present, but in the end that's just an excuse - have to find a way to get people in.

I don't gripe for gripings sake, so it always strikes me as odd when people feel the need to vent their frustrations. I know that people do it, but it's not in my makeup. In addition to the reasons I posted the most obvious reason not to start dumping players is that waving a white flag on June 30 3 games out of first just might get some negative press.

LYS says that without the playoffs, attendance will diminish, but how bad will it get if KW white flags it? Talk about a PR disaster.

Be a buyer or sit tight and hope for the best. Those are the only two viable choices.

soltrain21
07-29-2009, 11:50 PM
Voodoo, your ideas are intriguing and I would like to subscribe to your newsletter.

voodoochile
07-29-2009, 11:51 PM
Voodoo, your ideas are intriguing and I would like to subscribe to your newsletter.

I also sell pendants that ward of tiger attacks. I have yet to be attacked by a tiger since I started wearing one.

Boondock Saint
07-29-2009, 11:51 PM
Voodoo, your ideas are intriguing and I would like to subscribe to your newsletter.

That one never gets old. :D:

chisoxfanatic
07-29-2009, 11:51 PM
An no playoffs this year, I guarantee the gate and season ticket commitments will take even a bigger hit next season.
I think raising ticket prices would more greatly effect the number at the gate. That has to far and away be the top reason for our considerable drop this year. Kenny has to realize this and put a freeze on ticket prices, or at most raise them only a couple percent.

WhiteSox1989
07-29-2009, 11:54 PM
Offense has been extra streaky this year which makes it hard to get in a rhythm. I think we've had some bad offensive breaks in a couple of these game recently - Quentin's ninth inning liner on Monday (hit's it 3 feet higher, it's 10 rows deep) and Kotsay's ninth inning shot tonight. Hitting a couple of them right at defenders isn't helping things at present, but in the end that's just an excuse - have to find a way to get people in.

I don't gripe for gripings sake, so it always strikes me as odd when people feel the need to vent their frustrations. I know that people do it, but it's not in my makeup. In addition to the reasons I posted the most obvious reason not to start dumping players is that waving a white flag on June 30 3 games out of first just might get some negative press.

ILYS says that without the playoffs, attendance will diminish, but how bad will it get if KW white flags it? Talk about a PR disaster.

Be a buyer or sit tight and hope for the best. Those are the only two viable choices.

I would be very disappointed KW were to "white flag it", mainly because I know how competitive he is.
He did his best to try to groom the young players while still competing (keeping the veterans like Thome, PK, and Dye). Not completely a rebuilding year.

As bad as it sucks now, I think that the Sox have a fantastic future. Like I said, they'll just have to go through some growing pains.


..I don't know if what I'm saying makes much sense. My thoughts are all jumbled.

doublem23
07-29-2009, 11:54 PM
I think raising ticket prices would more greatly effect the number at the gate. That has to far and away be the top reason for our considerable drop this year. Kenny has to realize this and put a freeze on ticket prices, or at most raise them only a couple percent.

Wow, making fun of Dewayne Wise with a photo of him after just separating his shoulder by going all out to make a great defensive play in CF?

Classy.

LoveYourSuit
07-29-2009, 11:56 PM
I'm just curious, what does it matter? Trading off the FA's to be won't get the Sox anything much unless they dump Dye or PK which I really hope they don't as it will mean an extended rebuilding time.

Maybe Dotel could bring back a middling prospect, but probably not. Contreras? Again, who knows, probably not much.

None of these moves will add a serious prospect and will crush any chance they have this year of making the playoffs again.

Whether this team is destined for third place or a serious run at a pennant is yet to be determined, but there's no point in dismantling it, so might as well enjoy the ride and see how it plays out.

At least TCQ is finding a comfort zone. Here's hoping TCM isn't out for an extended period of time. The Sox still have plenty of head to head chances with the Twinkies and Kittens to make up the games they are back. Yes, it's a hard schedule, but with the team coming home, who knows what can happen.


Salary dumps Voodo.

That's why they might consider doing it.

Two months of Salary for a guy making $10+ million is still very serious money.

Plus, even if you do not get significant prospects back it still opens up playing time and positions for guys many believe are the future: Flowers, Danks, Viciedo, Poreda, Richard Etc.

Dump Colon and Contreras:
Richard and Poreda start

Dump AJ:
Flowers starts

Dump Dye:
Danks starts (if healthy)

Dump Paulie or Thome:
Flowers or Viciedo gets the call up.

soltrain21
07-29-2009, 11:58 PM
Wow, making fun of Dewayne Wise with a photo of him after just separating his shoulder by going all out to make a great defensive play in CF?

Classy.

It hits far too close to him for me. I separated my shoulder when I was 7 on the monkey bars. I was trying to be Nitro from American Gladiators.

I...I was not Nitro that day.

voodoochile
07-29-2009, 11:58 PM
I would be very disappointed KW were to "white flag it", mainly because I know how competitive he is.
He did his best to try to groom the young players while still competing (keeping the veterans like Thome, PK, and Dye). Not completely a rebuilding year.

As bad as it sucks now, I think that the Sox have a fantastic future. Like I said, they'll just have to go through some growing pains.


..I don't know if what I'm saying makes much sense. My thoughts are all jumbled.

You're making sense to me. I cannot speak for others. So far this division is playing out just like I expected. I thought it would be a dogfight between three flawed baseball teams all of them playing close to .500 for the majority of the season. Of the three, I think the Sox have the best chance to get hot and even make some noise in the playoffs if they can manage to gel at the right time. Add in the experience Danks and Floyd got last year in the post season and three do or die games and things could still break their way. Right now that first round matchup Vs. the Yankees might be a bit rough, but ask me on Monday how I feel about it and I might say something different.:D:

Boondock Saint
07-29-2009, 11:59 PM
Salary dumps Voodo.

That's why they might consider doing it.

Two months of Salary for a guy making $10+ million is still very serious money.

Plus, even if you do not get significant prospects back it still opens up playing time and positions for guys many believe are the future: Flowers, Danks, Viciedo, Poreda, Richard Etc.

Dump Colon and Contreras:
Richard and Poreda start

Dump AJ:
Flowers starts

Dump Dye:
Danks starts (if healthy)

Dump Paulie or Thome:
Flowers or Viciedo gets the call up.

You want to go all out on the young guys again? Maybe we can call the Red Sox and see if we can get BA back, then we can call up Lillibridge and Fields.

Giving the young guys a shot is fine. Giving them all a shot at the same time without any backup can result in disaster.

voodoochile
07-30-2009, 12:00 AM
Salary dumps Voodo.

That's why they might consider doing it.

Two months of Salary for a guy making $10+ million is still very serious money.

Plus, even if you do not get significant prospects back it still opens up playing time and positions for guys many believe are the future: Flowers, Danks, Viciedo, Poreda, Richard Etc.

Dump Colon and Contreras:
Richard and Poreda start

Dump AJ:
Flowers starts

Dump Dye:
Danks starts (if healthy)

Dump Paulie or Thome:
Flowers or Viciedo gets the call up.

Yeah, that's gonna garner some outstanding press coverage. 3 games out in late July, let's dump the veterans and play to rebuild and hope they can compete 3 years from now...

Are you ****ing nuts? :?:

Lip Man 1
07-30-2009, 12:02 AM
Double makes some very sound financial points, however the joker in all this is the economy, the expiring Sox advertising deals and if ownership wants to reinvest all that saved salary under those conditions.

In normal circumstances, he's right on the money...but under today's? No one can tell.

Lip

voodoochile
07-30-2009, 12:02 AM
You want to go all out on the young guys again? Maybe we can call the Red Sox and see if we can get BA back, then we can call up Lillibridge.

Giving the young guys a shot is fine. Giving them all a shot at the same time without any backup can result in disaster.

Making that decision on July 30th 3 games out of first is just flat stupid.

LYS is concerned about attendance next year if the Sox fail to make the playoffs this year.

What the **** is going to happen to attendance if the Sox go the white flag route again?

Last time they did it they drew 2.7M fans... over the next two years combined.

It's a BAD idea...

soltrain21
07-30-2009, 12:03 AM
Salary dumps Voodo.

That's why they might consider doing it.

Two months of Salary for a guy making $10+ million is still very serious money.

Plus, even if you do not get significant prospects back it still opens up playing time and positions for guys many believe are the future: Flowers, Danks, Viciedo, Poreda, Richard Etc.

Dump Colon and Contreras:
Richard and Poreda start

Dump AJ:
Flowers starts

Dump Dye:
Danks starts (if healthy)

Dump Paulie or Thome:
Flowers or Viciedo gets the call up.


You're crazy. I like you, man. But you're crazy.

Konerko05
07-30-2009, 12:03 AM
Salary dumps Voodo.

That's why they might consider doing it.

Two months of Salary for a guy making $10+ million is still very serious money.

Plus, even if you do not get significant prospects back it still opens up playing time and positions for guys many believe are the future: Flowers, Danks, Viciedo, Poreda, Richard Etc.

Dump Colon and Contreras:
Richard and Poreda start

Dump AJ:
Flowers starts

Dump Dye:
Danks starts (if healthy)

Dump Paulie or Thome:
Flowers or Viciedo gets the call up.

Who says Poreda, Danks, Flowers, and Viciedo are developed enough to be called up?

Viciedo is nowhere near ready.

Flowers is probably ready offensively, but defensively is another story.

I'm sure they would like to give Danks more time in the minors to work on making contact more often.

Poreda needs more work on his secondary pitches before he's starting up here.

I'm not ready to dump productive players in a divisional race while ruining the development of our top prospects.

doublem23
07-30-2009, 12:04 AM
Double makes some very sound financial points, however the joker in all this is the economy, the expiring Sox advertising deals and if ownership wants to reinvest all that saved salary under those conditions.

In normal circumstances, he's right on the money...but under today's? No one can tell.

Lip

I think that's the most positive thing you've posted since 2005.

Boondock Saint
07-30-2009, 12:05 AM
It's a BAD idea...

You might want to italicize the word "bad" there, Voodoo. I'm not sure people are going to fully understand just how bad of an idea you think this is. :redneck

LoveYourSuit
07-30-2009, 12:06 AM
Yeah, that's gonna garner some outstanding press coverage. 3 games out in late July, let's dump the veterans and play to rebuild and hope they can compete 3 years from now...

Are you ****ing nuts? :?:


Can a bunch of young guys play any worse than .500 baseball?

Only a stupid fan would be upset if Kenny were to blow this thing up in order to open up room for the future to start playing right now.


The prospects I am mentioning are the same guys everyone here and in the media have lableled "cant miss." This is not the BA/Fields crap from the past.

So get it done. Enough with this monkey crap of playing .500 baseball in one of the worst divisions we have seen in quite a long time.

I choose to spend to win. Dump prospects for ML players. But that's not going to happen here. And half assing as we have been doing the last two season is getting old and annoying. This is not enjoyable baseball.

DickAllen72
07-30-2009, 12:06 AM
Dump Colon and Contreras:
Richard and Poreda start

Dump AJ:
Flowers starts

Dump Dye:
Danks starts (if healthy)

Dump Paulie or Thome:
Flowers or Viciedo gets the call up.

None of those guys are really major league ready and they're already playing everyday in the minors. Bringing them up would not really help them and would probably even stunt their development.

And personally, I want AJ to retire in a White Sox uniform and stay with the organization in some capacity afterward.

Boondock Saint
07-30-2009, 12:07 AM
Can a bunch of young guys play any worse than .500 baseball?

http://static.pyzam.com/img/thumbs/bgs/lg/ahlogopirates.jpg

You're about to find out in a very, very ugly way.

LoveYourSuit
07-30-2009, 12:08 AM
Who says Poreda, Danks, Flowers, and Viciedo are developed enough to be called up?

Viciedo is nowhere near ready.

Flowers is probably ready offensively, but defensively is another story.

I'm sure they would like to give Danks more time in the minors to work on making contact more often.

Poreda needs more work on his secondary pitches before he's starting up here.

I'm not ready to dump productive players in a divisional race while ruining the development of our top prospects.


He better damn be near ready.

You don't pay a guy $10 million as a FA to go play 2 years of minor league baseball. Someone in scouting should get fired for that (which wouldn't be new).

LoveYourSuit
07-30-2009, 12:09 AM
None of those guys are really major league ready and they're already playing everyday in the minors. Bringing them up would not really help them and would probably even stunt their development.

And personally, I want AJ to retire in a White Sox uniform and stay with the organization in some capacity afterward.


Why :scratch:

Did I miss where AJ all of sudden became this Johnny Bench Folk Hero:scratch:

soltrain21
07-30-2009, 12:09 AM
The prospects I am mentioning are the same guys everyone here and in the media have lableled "cant miss." This is not the BA/Fields crap from the past.



I bet at least two of them don't pan out.

voodoochile
07-30-2009, 12:10 AM
Can a bunch of young guys play any worse than .500 baseball?

Only a stupid fan would be upset if Kenny were to blow this thing up in order to open up room for the future to start playing right now.


The prospects I am mentioning are the same guys everyone here and in the media have lableled "cant miss." This is not the BA/Fields crap from the past.

So get it done. Enough with this monkey crap of playing .500 baseball in one of the worst divisions we have seen in quite a long time.

I choose to spend to win. Dump prospects for ML players. But that's not going to happen here. And half assing as we have been doing the last two season is getting old and annoying. This is not enjoyable baseball.

Yeah, **** the media implications. Who cares if the Sox look like they don't give a rats ass what the fans want, bring up a bunch of half developed kids and ruin their development curves and hope for the best and watch season tickets drop to 10K next year as the press has a field day ripping the Sox a new one for the next 7 months and payroll is forced back down to $50-60M...

Come on... Think about what you are saying and try to factor in the multitude of issues that actually are part of dumping the season tomorrow...

Frankfan4life
07-30-2009, 12:10 AM
Sooner or later the Sox will accidentally put three or four hits together in one inning and score some runs in the eighth and ninth innings. Because, obviously, they can't do it on purpose.

DickAllen72
07-30-2009, 12:10 AM
Why :scratch:

Did I miss where AJ all of sudden became this Johnny Bench Folk Hero:scratch:
I guess so.

voodoochile
07-30-2009, 12:11 AM
He better damn be near ready.

You don't pay a guy $10 million as a FA to go play 2 years of minor league baseball. Someone in scouting should get fired for that (which wouldn't be new).


He's posting a .680+ OPS in AA ball. Does that sound ready to face big league pitching?

chisoxfanatic
07-30-2009, 12:13 AM
Why :scratch:

Did I miss where AJ all of sudden became this Johnny Bench Folk Hero:scratch:
AJ would make an OUTSTANDING coach somewhere in our organization.

WhiteSox1989
07-30-2009, 12:14 AM
Why :scratch:

Did I miss where AJ all of sudden became this Johnny Bench Folk Hero:scratch:
Yes.

Boondock Saint
07-30-2009, 12:14 AM
He better damn be near ready.

You don't pay a guy $10 million as a FA to go play 2 years of minor league baseball. Someone in scouting should get fired for that (which wouldn't be new).

Viciedo was going to get that money to play in the minors, regardless of who paid it to him. I'd much rather be the team down the line with a kid at 3B/1B that hits the ball like a monster than the idiot team that says, "Too bad we didn't have the balls to spend that $10m."

Konerko05
07-30-2009, 12:14 AM
He better damn be near ready.

You don't pay a guy $10 million as a FA to go play 2 years of minor league baseball. Someone in scouting should get fired for that (which wouldn't be new).

.273/.311/.375 with 25 errors.

He will probably have to repeat AA next season.

LoveYourSuit
07-30-2009, 12:15 AM
Yeah, **** the media implications. Who cares if the Sox look like they don't give a rats ass what the fans want, bring up a bunch of half developed kids and ruin their development curves and hope for the best and watch season tickets drop to 10K next year as the press has a field day ripping the Sox a new one for the next 7 months and payroll is forced back down to $50-60M...

Come on... Think about what you are saying and try to factor in the multitude of issues that actually are part of dumping the season tomorrow...

**** the fans and **** the media.

The fans are going to say **** you to the Sox next season if they fail to make the playoffs or even get past round 1.

I know all this sound drastic, but something drastic needs to be done with this roster.

I hope the Sox operate their business not giving a rat's ass what the media and fans think. Keep pampering to stupid fans who can't live with out AJ, BA, Rowand, Crede etc and see these guys as some sort of folk heros:scratch: ... that's a way to have your franchise crash and burn.

LoveYourSuit
07-30-2009, 12:16 AM
.273/.311/.375 with 25 errors.

He will probably have to repeat AA next season.

Then someone is getting fired

WhiteSox1989
07-30-2009, 12:18 AM
**** the fans and **** the media.

The fans are going to say **** you to the Sox next season if they fail to make the playoffs or even get past round 1.

I know all this sound drastic, but something drastic needs to be done with this roster.

I hope the Sox operate their business not giving a rat's ass what the media and fans think. Keep pampering to stupid fans who can't live with out AJ, BA, Rowand, Crede etc and see these guys as some sort of folk heros:scratch: ... that's a way to have your franchise crash and burn.

I actually think three of those four are HIGHLY overrated.

Boondock Saint
07-30-2009, 12:19 AM
Then someone is getting fired

Yeah, bet on that.

Everyone and their dog knew that Viciedo was very raw and needed a lot of work. Surprise! He still needs work.

Woofer
07-30-2009, 12:21 AM
Between the 1994 strike, and the white flag trade in 1997, the Sox almost lost me as a fan. I went to only a few games between 1995 and 1999. I was so disgusted by these two events that it took years for me to get over it. The White Sox cannot sell off all the vets, or they will have an empty ballpark. I am hoping that they have learned from this mistake.

I don't want my Sox to end up looking like the Pirates or Nationals. I've invested a big chunk of my life into this team, and am filled with sorrow when they lose, and pride when they win. I expect a winner on the south side.

voodoochile
07-30-2009, 12:23 AM
**** the fans and **** the media.

The fans are going to say **** you to the Sox next season if they fail to make the playoffs or even get past round 1.

I know all this sound drastic, but something drastic needs to be done with this roster.

I hope the Sox operate their business not giving a rat's ass what the media and fans think. Keep pampering to stupid fans who can't live with out AJ, BA, Rowand, Crede etc and see these guys as some sort of folk heros:scratch: ... that's a way to have your franchise crash and burn.

This post is both insane and clueless so I'm just gonna bow out now. Have a great time posting your rants. I'm just super happy you have no say in Sox front office decisions.

voodoochile
07-30-2009, 12:24 AM
Between the 1994 strike, and the white flag trade in 1997, the Sox almost lost me as a fan. I went to only a few games between 1995 and 1999. I was so disgusted by these two events that it took years for me to get over it. The White Sox cannot sell off all the vets, or they will have an empty ballpark. I am hoping that they have learned from this mistake.

I don't want my Sox to end up looking like the Pirates or Nationals. I've invested a big chunk of my life into this team, and am filled with sorrow when they lose, and pride when they win. I expect a winner on the south side.

:thumbsup:

Thanks for getting it.

Woofer
07-30-2009, 12:27 AM
:thumbsup:

Thanks for getting it.

I've lived long enough to realize that it's more fun watching my baseball team win than lose.:smile:

Lip Man 1
07-30-2009, 12:32 AM
Double:

I'll be happy to accommodate you and do it again the next time the Sox get to a World Series. (I'm 53 so there's still a chance!)

Lip

LoveYourSuit
07-30-2009, 12:35 AM
Between the 1994 strike, and the white flag trade in 1997, the Sox almost lost me as a fan. I went to only a few games between 1995 and 1999. I was so disgusted by these two events that it took years for me to get over it. The White Sox cannot sell off all the vets, or they will have an empty ballpark. I am hoping that they have learned from this mistake.

I don't want my Sox to end up looking like the Pirates or Nationals. I've invested a big chunk of my life into this team, and am filled with sorrow when they lose, and pride when they win. I expect a winner on the south side.


Had the Sox won the World Series in 1993 (as they could have), would have you held as much of a grudge about 1994 and also the "White Flag Trade?"

People were so bent out of shape back then because everyone was clueless about what winning was all about. You pull a "white flag" (I guess you can call it that although I wouldn't for such a mediocre ball club) trade today, 4 years removed from winning the World Series, fans better get it. If not, then all hope for White Sox Fan nation is lost.

I didn't stay away in the 90s and I would't stay away if happened again this time.

Ranger
07-30-2009, 12:40 AM
But that is the thing..i do not know why people think that trading a couple pieces turns this in to a 65 win team. It amazes me. lets just say the Sox trade Jermaine and Dotel....you can could a pretty good return for this.

What do you define as "pretty good"? You're not getting top prospects for either of those two guys.

Boondock Saint
07-30-2009, 12:41 AM
People were so bent out of shape back then because everyone was clueless about what winning was all about.

Sox fans everywhere thank you for speaking for them. :rolleyes:

all hope for White Sox Fan nation is lost.

Save it for drama class. You're being ridiculous.

LoveYourSuit
07-30-2009, 12:43 AM
What do you define as "pretty good"? You're not getting top prospects for either of those two guys.


That part I do agree with Voodo.

People thinking that the farm system will benefit greatly from dumping these veterans are sadly mistakent based on today's trade market. Hell, teams are balking to unload their best prospects for perhaps the best pitcher in the game.


Dumping will not be for the sake of loading. It would be to make room for younger players to get a shot and to save a little bit of cash the next 2 months.

LoveYourSuit
07-30-2009, 12:44 AM
sox fans everywhere thank you for speaking for them. :rolleyes:



Save it for drama class. You're being ridiculous.


ok

voodoochile
07-30-2009, 12:47 AM
That part I do agree with Voodo.

People thinking that the farm system will benefit greatly from dumping these veterans are sadly mistakent based on today's trade market. Hell, teams are balking to unload their best prospects for perhaps the best pitcher in the game.


Dumping will not be for the sake of loading. It would be to make room for younger players to get a shot and to save a little bit of cash the next 2 months.


Any cash you "save" will be offset by loss of sales at the gate in August and September and carry over to next year in lost season ticket sales.

Whether it effects you personally or not a LOT Of Sox fans voted with their wallets in 1998 and 1999 and would probably do so again if the Sox white flagged it for a second time in a crappy division.

I have NO idea how you don't get it. The evidence is right before your eyes when the Sox drew 1.3M fans in 1998 and 1999 and the season ticket base was around 8K.

You are all worried about what not making the playoffs will do to the season ticket base next year, yet are perfectly willing to once again enact one of the worst PR blunders in professional sports history and think nothing of it.

To say your plan is flawed is an insult to the word flawed.

LoveYourSuit
07-30-2009, 12:52 AM
Any cash you "save" will be offset by loss of sales at the gate in August and September and carry over to next year in lost season ticket sales.

Whether it effects you personally or not a LOT Of Sox fans voted with their wallets in 1998 and 1999 and would probably do so again if the Sox white flagged it for a second time in a crappy division.

I have NO idea how you don't get it. The evidence is right before your eyes when the Sox drew 1.3M fans in 1998 and 1999 and the season ticket base was around 8K.

You are all worried about what not making the playoffs will do to the season ticket base next year, yet are perfectly willing to once again enact one of the worst PR blunders in professional sports history and think nothing of it.

To say your plan is flawed is an insult to the word flawed.


Simple question:

Can this team win the World Series?

spongyfungy
07-30-2009, 12:53 AM
Simple question:

Can this team win the World Series?

Is that you Bernstein?

Boondock Saint
07-30-2009, 12:55 AM
Simple question:

Can this team win the World Series?

Of course it can, but it probably won't. That isn't the point, though. The Rockies made it there in '07, and anyone that thinks they were even in the top 3 teams in the NL that year is delusional. You can't just give up when there's still a chance. You never know when a team is going to get hot and ride it to/through the playoffs.

LoveYourSuit
07-30-2009, 12:55 AM
Any cash you "save" will be offset by loss of sales at the gate in August and September and carry over to next year in lost season ticket sales.

Whether it effects you personally or not a LOT Of Sox fans voted with their wallets in 1998 and 1999 and would probably do so again if the Sox white flagged it for a second time in a crappy division.

I have NO idea how you don't get it. The evidence is right before your eyes when the Sox drew 1.3M fans in 1998 and 1999 and the season ticket base was around 8K.

You are all worried about what not making the playoffs will do to the season ticket base next year, yet are perfectly willing to once again enact one of the worst PR blunders in professional sports history and think nothing of it.

To say your plan is flawed is an insult to the word flawed.

Also,

Those same fans who "voted with their wallets" where all in the parade and right on the bandwagon in 2005. Heck, they probably jumped on board in 2000.

Winning cures all wounds.

LoveYourSuit
07-30-2009, 12:59 AM
Of course it can, but it probably won't. That isn't the point, though. The Rockies made it there in '07, and anyone that thinks they were even in the top 3 teams in the NL that year is delusional. You can't just give up when there's still a chance. You never know when a team is going to get hot and ride it to/through the playoffs.

The Rockies had no-where close the competition that the Sox will be facing if they do get in.

Bottom line. I think the White Sox are a bat short and a SP short to be real ALCS contender. If they can dump all the youth for those two pieces, then I would be feeling so much better about things.

I just don't have hope right now.

Ranger
07-30-2009, 12:59 AM
I know what you're saying. I was at the playoff win last year. Great time. However, it lessened the pressure for the complete offensive overhaul that was best for the organization. It's coming, though.


That's not true at all. If it were the case that a poor finish would have dictated the overhaul of the lineup, don't' you think you would have seen a massive overhaul of the lineup from 2007 to 2008? With the exception of Cabrera and Swisher, the Sox went into 2008 with the same guys in the lineup from the year before. AJ, Konerko, Dye, Thome, Uribe, and Crede were all still there.

So, if a 72-win, terrible-offensive season doesn't force a GM to blow a team to pieces, one playoff win isn't going to trick him into hanging onto everyone either.

Boondock Saint
07-30-2009, 01:02 AM
The Rockies had no-where close the competition that the Sox will be facing if they do get in.

Bottom line. I think the White Sox are a bat short and a SP short to be real ALCS contender. If they can dump all the youth for those two pieces, then I would be feeling so much better about things.

I just don't have hope right now.

The Rockies didn't have half the talent the Sox do, either.

Dumping the young guys just ruins this team 2-3 years down the line.

Ranger
07-30-2009, 01:04 AM
Can a bunch of young guys play any worse than .500 baseball?

Um, yes. They can. Much worse.

LoveYourSuit
07-30-2009, 01:06 AM
One thing to note about today's game is the shut down performance by the lower end of our bullpen.

Pena is starting to look worthy of the trade we made.

If we do turn things around, I think Pena will play a big part in replacing Linebrink.

LoveYourSuit
07-30-2009, 01:07 AM
Um, yes. They can. Much worse.


How much worse, in this division?

doublem23
07-30-2009, 01:13 AM
How much worse, in this division?

Well, there are 2 other teams in the division, saddled with young players all over their roster that are 18 and 20 games under .500 respectively, so apparently you can still be pretty ****ty.

Noneck
07-30-2009, 01:19 AM
Sitting on their hands is the safest bet for management at this point. It wont tick off the fan base and it wont hurt their pocket book much.

Its a hedge your bet situation.

Ranger
07-30-2009, 01:20 AM
Any cash you "save" will be offset by loss of sales at the gate in August and September and carry over to next year in lost season ticket sales.

Whether it effects you personally or not a LOT Of Sox fans voted with their wallets in 1998 and 1999 and would probably do so again if the Sox white flagged it for a second time in a crappy division.

I have NO idea how you don't get it. The evidence is right before your eyes when the Sox drew 1.3M fans in 1998 and 1999 and the season ticket base was around 8K.

You are all worried about what not making the playoffs will do to the season ticket base next year, yet are perfectly willing to once again enact one of the worst PR blunders in professional sports history and think nothing of it.

To say your plan is flawed is an insult to the word flawed.

Voodoo, this is not necessarily a response to this particular post, but to a good number of your posts in this thread. Bit, I'd just like to tell you that I appreciate your ability to "get it," if you know what I mean. Some people just get it, and for the most part I think you do. As do quite a few other people here.

However, there are far too many that don't, unfortunately. Too many that are dangerously confident they know how the operation of a Major League franchise should should be handled. Too many that deal in absolutes.

It's ok to look at your team and acknowledge both the good and bad. It's not always great and it ain't always terrible. And a week and a half of bad baseball doesn't mean it's time to blow it up...just as 7 straight wins doesn't mean they're going all the way.

LoveYourSuit
07-30-2009, 01:29 AM
Voodoo, this is not necessarily a response to this particular post, but to a good number of your posts in this thread. Bit, I'd just like to tell you that I appreciate your ability to "get it," if you know what I mean. Some people just get it, and for the most part I think you do. As do quite a few other people here.

However, there are far too many that don't, unfortunately. Too many that are dangerously confident they know how the operation of a Major League franchise should should be handled. Too many that deal in absolutes.

It's ok to look at your team and acknowledge both the good and bad. It's not always great and it ain't always terrible. And a week and a half of bad baseball doesn't mean it's time to blow it up...just as 7 straight wins doesn't mean they're going all the way.


It's a message board Ranger.:rolleyes:

If everyone was so perfect as you and Voodo are, then it would become a publication wouldn't it?

Ranger
07-30-2009, 02:12 AM
It's a message board Ranger.:rolleyes:

If everyone was so perfect as you and Voodo are, then it would become a publication wouldn't it?

Hey, Suit, imperfection is fine. So are strange opinions. It's when a person makes such assertions fueled by ignorance and pure negative emotion that I have a problem.

It would be far better if those types of people just said, "man, I'm furious at how this team is playing and I'm tired of watching it...however I don't know the right way to fix it. And I don't have all the information regarding the trade/free agency market, so I won't act like the organization is incompetent or is trying to screw the fans by lining their owners pockets with money."

Is it too much to ask to want fans to be passionate but have some understanding that we don't know everything about the difficulty of assembling a roster of an MLB team?

guillensdisciple
07-30-2009, 02:56 AM
:rolling::rolling::rolling::rolling::rolling::roll ing::rolling::rolling::rolling:


I will find it funny when they prove you wrong. Two months of baseball left guys, and something tells me that by the time I come back from my two week outing in Cuba the White Sox will be in first place.


If not, life moves on.

ms620
07-30-2009, 06:46 AM
Voodoo, this is not necessarily a response to this particular post, but to a good number of your posts in this thread. Bit, I'd just like to tell you that I appreciate your ability to "get it," if you know what I mean. Some people just get it, and for the most part I think you do. As do quite a few other people here.

However, there are far too many that don't, unfortunately. Too many that are dangerously confident they know how the operation of a Major League franchise should should be handled. Too many that deal in absolutes.

It's ok to look at your team and acknowledge both the good and bad. It's not always great and it ain't always terrible. And a week and a half of bad baseball doesn't mean it's time to blow it up...just as 7 straight wins doesn't mean they're going all the way.

I still do not think why trading a couple pieces would be considered blowing it up? The point is to remain competitive, to give fans something to be excited about, and build a great team for the future. People are forgetting that the Sox look like they are about to have a very powerful marketing tool...GORDON BECKHAM. He has the chance to be the face of this franchise. Like I said before, I do not think a team with as good of a young core as these Sox will all of a sudden become a 65 win team if trade a couple pieces. But, while you are not going to get Kyle Drabek or a top prospect for the likes of Dotel or even Dye, you can get some young pieces that can either help on this club down the line, or part of a deep farm system that can be used in future trade discussions to obtain proven players. Look, i am not saying this b/c I think the season is over. I know the Sox CAN win this division. All im saying is I do not look at this sox team as anything more than a very flawed mediocre team, and at a time when teams do not want to add a ton of long term payroll for the top trade targets out there, guys like Jermaine and Dotel WILL have some value. And the part about how Major League Franchises should be run...i guarantee there are people within the Sox organization who are having the same debate that we are. It is a very logical to think that the Sox might be better in the long run by getting value for some of its pieces...if possible. Clearly who knows wht teams want, aor what Kenny will ask for...but it is an option that should and i am confident is being discussed. Kenny might decide to go for it, by either buying or standing pat. And that is fine. But it is ridiculous for people to not see why a team in the White Sox' position might consider selling. Fans always have hope. Fans always overrate their team during the preseason, and overrate their prospects in the minors. They overrate their ability to make a run in the playoffs etc... GMs dont. They have to be realistic. The one main part I do agree with is the effect it would have on the fans. Thats mostly b/c in my opinion most fans do not realizwe that for us this is enjoyment, but for KW and the Sox organization this is business.

Frater Perdurabo
07-30-2009, 07:22 AM
Hey, Suit, imperfection is fine. So are strange opinions. It's when a person makes such assertions fueled by ignorance and pure negative emotion that I have a problem.

It would be far better if those types of people just said, "man, I'm furious at how this team is playing and I'm tired of watching it...however I don't know the right way to fix it. And I don't have all the information regarding the trade/free agency market, so I won't act like the organization is incompetent or is trying to screw the fans by lining their owners pockets with money."

Is it too much to ask to want fans to be passionate but have some understanding that we don't know everything about the difficulty of assembling a roster of an MLB team?

Can we also admit, though, that Ozzie makes some questionable lineup and bullpen decisions?

southside rocks
07-30-2009, 07:25 AM
Between the 1994 strike, and the white flag trade in 1997, the Sox almost lost me as a fan. I went to only a few games between 1995 and 1999. I was so disgusted by these two events that it took years for me to get over it. The White Sox cannot sell off all the vets, or they will have an empty ballpark. I am hoping that they have learned from this mistake.

I don't want my Sox to end up looking like the Pirates or Nationals. I've invested a big chunk of my life into this team, and am filled with sorrow when they lose, and pride when they win. I expect a winner on the south side.

Same goes for me. A fan since 1967, but not an unquestioningly-supportive fan, I loathed the new park, despised the ownership, and the strike in '94 totally alienated me. I did not buy any of the Sox product for several years.

Ozzie and Kenny brought me back to the park and to rabid fandom. I have the utmost respect for both of them and I gained a new respect for JR because he finally 'got it' and put good management in place. I buy Ozzie Plan tickets every year based on my respect for those three. They give us a good product. Even in that nightmare year of 2007, the product was not as bad as the play -- and the play is the fault of the players.

Hysteria's easy. Managing's hard. Winning's harder. The excellent Leonard Koppett once defined "panic" as "the abandonment of percentage moves in the face of disaster." It takes a lot to not panic -- more than many internet-board posters can manage, I guess. :tongue:

TomBradley72
07-30-2009, 07:35 AM
We can bitch and moan about the dome, pining for BA, our shock that Josh Fields has been sent to AAA, our anger that we didn't sign Orlando Hudson, etc.

But since the All Star break, 5 of our regulars are hitting </=.220:


PK- .170
TCQ- .171
Dye- .180
Thome- .219
TCM- .220
This is the complete, veteran core of our line up...if they don't get their act together...there's no way we overcome our shakey bullpen and even shakier defense.

WhiteSox1989
07-30-2009, 07:48 AM
We can bitch and moan about the dome, pining for BA, our shock that Josh Fields has been sent to AAA, our anger that we didn't sign Orlando Hudson, etc.

But since the All Star break, 5 of our regulars are hitting </=.220:


PK- .170
TCQ- .171
Dye- .180
Thome- .219
TCM- .220

This is the complete, veteran core of our line up...if they don't get their act together...there's no way we overcome our shakey bullpen and even shakier defense.

Be patient with Quentin.

RedHeadPaleHoser
07-30-2009, 08:07 AM
3 games out, a .500 team and two months to go.

I'm still believing. :D:

hawkjt
07-30-2009, 09:17 AM
We can bitch and moan about the dome, pining for BA, our shock that Josh Fields has been sent to AAA, our anger that we didn't sign Orlando Hudson, etc.

But since the All Star break, 5 of our regulars are hitting </=.220:


PK- .170
TCQ- .171
Dye- .180
Thome- .219
TCM- .220
This is the complete, veteran core of our line up...if they don't get their act together...there's no way we overcome our shakey bullpen and even shakier defense.


Yes, the hitting, which was good for the six weeks leading up to the All Star break, has just gone away. PK and Alexei are combined 6 for their last 58. The bottom part of the order has continued to hit enough,just like when we were going well, but the key is the middle of the lineup has to be steady producers. PK had a great first half, but now so far a horrible second half...hope it is not the reverse of last year for him.

I know it is a coincidence, but everything has been downhill since the Perfecto. Even in that game, Josh got the grandslam with two outs and then Pods and Alexei had the back to back doubles and that was it. It seems like after the second inning of that game, the offense just went silent and has yet to wake up. I admit, I love MB as much as anyone ,but it is getting hard to continue the celebration of that event with every passing loss. Now, we have MB Day..great..but next week is the MB Celebration Series vs the Angels? I want to celebrate some wins...more than anything right now.

voodoochile
07-30-2009, 09:37 AM
Simple question:

Can this team win the World Series?

I honestly don't know. I think the top 4 starters are good enough to compete in the playoffs. I think the offense has the potential to catch fire and score runs in bunches. I'm okay with the bullpen though it will depend on how hard it gets worked over the next few months. I don't think much of our defense, but it's not the priority for me it is for others. I've seen plenty of teams win the Series with average defense or worse.

However, unlike you, I don't think that's the only criteria to judge the season on and don't feel the benefits of white flagging it will outweigh the potential negative repercussions. If the Sox could acquire GOOD prospects/players who would be here for several years, then it might be worth it to explore. Simply to dump salary I think is a horrible idea and one that will end up costing the team WAY more money than they could ever save.

I also don't think most of the kids in the minors are ready to be pushed into big league service. This is exactly what the Sox have done wrong in the past (rush prospects) and it's led to all sorts of problems. I say leave the kids alone until they are ready for a shot and then give them one. Just because Beckham blew through the minors and has been a solid player in the majors doesn't mean they all will do the same.

fram40
07-30-2009, 09:40 AM
Same goes for me. A fan since 1967, but not an unquestioningly-supportive fan, I loathed the new park, despised the ownership, and the strike in '94 totally alienated me. I did not buy any of the Sox product for several years.

Ozzie and Kenny brought me back to the park and to rabid fandom. I have the utmost respect for both of them and I gained a new respect for JR because he finally 'got it' and put good management in place. I buy Ozzie Plan tickets every year based on my respect for those three. They give us a good product. Even in that nightmare year of 2007, the product was not as bad as the play -- and the play is the fault of the players.



Agreed. on all points, esp ownership. Kenny and Ozzie brought me back also.

This road trip from hell was very very disappointing. Losing six of seven to your divisional rivals?? arghhh The way they lost was even more disappointing. Except for the Verlander game, the Sox beat themselves in every loss. And if they get one or two hits against Verlander early in that game ...

Last night - Jose pitched decent but he beat himself as well. Two of the runs that scored got on base because of walks and two of the runs were driven in by Casilla - a .161 hitter. Winning pitchers don't do that.

I was worried going into this series because Floyd was not pitching. He has won the only games the Sox have won in that dome the last two seasons.

I am still hopeful. They have a good pitching staff and a good mix of youth and experience, speed and power.

ms620
07-30-2009, 09:41 AM
I honestly don't know. I think the top 4 starters are good enough to compete in the playoffs. I think the offense has the potential to catch fire and score runs in bunches. I'm okay with the bullpen though it will depend on how hard it gets worked over the next few months. I don't think much of our defense, but it's not the priority for me it is for others. I've seen plenty of teams win the Series with average defense or worse.

However, unlike you, I don't think that's the only criteria to judge the season on and don't feel the benefits of white flagging it will outweigh the potential negative repercussions. If the Sox could acquire GOOD prospects/players who would be here for several years, then it might be worth it to explore. Simply to dump salary I think is a horrible idea and one that will end up costing the team WAY more money than they could ever save.

I also don't think most of the kids in the minors are ready to be pushed into big league service. This is exactly what the Sox have done wrong in the past (rush prospects) and it's led to all sorts of problems. I say leave the kids alone until they are ready for a shot and then give them one. Just because Beckham blew through the minors and has been a solid player in the majors doesn't mean they all will do the same.

This is what I have been saying. Dont just trade vets to trade them. But if you can get what you think is good value then you do it.

voodoochile
07-30-2009, 09:44 AM
Voodoo, this is not necessarily a response to this particular post, but to a good number of your posts in this thread. Bit, I'd just like to tell you that I appreciate your ability to "get it," if you know what I mean. Some people just get it, and for the most part I think you do. As do quite a few other people here.

However, there are far too many that don't, unfortunately. Too many that are dangerously confident they know how the operation of a Major League franchise should should be handled. Too many that deal in absolutes.

It's ok to look at your team and acknowledge both the good and bad. It's not always great and it ain't always terrible. And a week and a half of bad baseball doesn't mean it's time to blow it up...just as 7 straight wins doesn't mean they're going all the way.

You just made my day and it's still early. Thanks, Ranger.

In response to the point about the offensive struggles, the good news it those guys should break out of it again. Yeah, if they continue to all hit that poorly the season is doomed, but as many close games as the Sox have had with that kind of production from the core of the lineup to even be playing teams close is a miracle.

voodoochile
07-30-2009, 09:46 AM
This is what I have been saying. Dont just trade vets to trade them. But if you can get what you think is good value then you do it.

Without trading the hot prospects odds on getting good talent in return is very low. You just aren't going to get much for Thome, Contreras or Dotel especially not if the team is having a kneejerk reaction with ~40 hours to go before the trade deadline.

ms620
07-30-2009, 09:48 AM
Without trading the hot prospects odds on getting good talent in return is very low. You just aren't going to get much for Thome, Contreras or Dotel especially not if the team is having a kneejerk reaction with ~40 hours to go before the trade deadline.

Than you do not make the trade. It is more about the debate on whether to take what you think is a good offer if you get the chance. I say definately yes.

Tragg
07-30-2009, 10:27 AM
That's not true at all. If it were the case that a poor finish would have dictated the overhaul of the lineup, don't' you think you would have seen a massive overhaul of the lineup from 2007 to 2008? With the exception of Cabrera and Swisher, the Sox went into 2008 with the same guys in the lineup from the year before. AJ, Konerko, Dye, Thome, Uribe, and Crede were all still there.


He certainly tried to trade Dye (and Mark Beuhrle) in 2007. He gave Iguchi to the Phillies.
He wanted to dump Uribe, but Ozzie talked him out of it. He iced Mack in the late summer.
He did dump the bench (cintron, gonzales and assorted other clowns).
He added Ramirez
He dumped Ozzie's main man Erstad; He kept Jerry Owens, but the Sox were saved from that impending disaster by injury. This year, he got Williams to give the pitiful Wise a contract because he had him picked out as leadoff hitter.
He beefed up the pen behind Jenks.
He did a big roster makeover after 2007.
Putting together a roster is difficult...made more difficult when your manager has no eye for offensive talent,

PhillipsBubba
07-30-2009, 10:39 AM
Hey we are only 3 games back! Not bad at all! .500 record..awesome!!!

I guess you are assuming the Sox can play well enough during this brutal stretch to gain ground?

Look for the White Sox to be about ten eight games out by the end of August.

The Sox have a terrible defense, shaky relief pitching and an inconsistent offense...un-inspiring to see the least:(:

That said...they can be good next year if Kenny Williams gets his mojo back and makes a few good deals...right now I think he's half asleep while the rest of the contending teams work furiously to get better.

kellykid
07-30-2009, 10:49 AM
Look for the White Sox to be about ten eight games out by the end of August.


I refuse to think that way. I suppose it's easier to expect the worst, that way you won't be disappointed later..but I'll chose to believe in my guys.

kittle42
07-30-2009, 10:50 AM
I'll say this much: If the Sox lose this division by 2 or 3 games, we can look back at this road trip against our two division rivals and point to it as the stretch that got away from us. Go 4-3 on that trip instead of 1-6 and we are begging for Williams to do all he can by 29 hours from now to push us to the top.

If - and I say IF - the Sox finish "close, but no cigar," this past week may have been the season. You simply cannot lose the division games when your division sucks.

CHISOXFAN13
07-30-2009, 10:57 AM
I guess you are assuming the Sox can play well enough during this brutal stretch to gain ground?

Look for the White Sox to be about ten eight games out by the end of August.

The Sox have a terrible defense, shaky relief pitching and an inconsistent offense...un-inspiring to see the least:(:

That said...they can be good next year if Kenny Williams gets his mojo back and makes a few good deals...right now I think he's half asleep while the rest of the contending teams work furiously to get better.

You act like the Twins and Tigers don't have flaws. Ten games out, my ass.

PhillipsBubba
07-30-2009, 11:03 AM
I refuse to think that way. I suppose it's easier to expect the worst, that way you won't be disappointed later..but I'll chose to believe in my guys.

I obviously disagree but I admire your attitude:smile:

kittle42
07-30-2009, 11:04 AM
You act like the Twins and Tigers don't have flaws. Ten games out, my ass.

Tons of flaws, but easier schedules, and only a combined 6 road games at Chicago.

We gots us some trouble.

PhillipsBubba
07-30-2009, 11:05 AM
You act like the Twins and Tigers don't have flaws. Ten games out, my ass.


Ok...I was wrong...how about eight games???

Seriously...it ain't happenin' this year.

Pear-Zin-Ski
07-30-2009, 11:25 AM
In a small scoring game, like last night, what truly killed us was a couple walks by Jose. Ok, a man on first, no biggie, but why give the Twins any more than they deserve? You know there is going to be a little turd duck snort every other inning. With nobody on base I could deal with it, but for christ's sake, don't give them anymore than they deserve!

Other than that Jose pitched damn good considering he should've been done much earlier. If the offense picked it up we could've won the game. Oh well...just another game in the ****hole.

Whitesoxfan23
07-30-2009, 11:27 AM
I wonder if Crede has shared with his new teammates, the secret to why the Sox fear the Dump so much?

ike from nj
07-30-2009, 12:34 PM
I still do not think why trading a couple pieces would be considered blowing it up? The point is to remain competitive, to give fans something to be excited about, and build a great team for the future. People are forgetting that the Sox look like they are about to have a very powerful marketing tool...GORDON BECKHAM. He has the chance to be the face of this franchise. Like I said before, I do not think a team with as good of a young core as these Sox will all of a sudden become a 65 win team if trade a couple pieces. But, while you are not going to get Kyle Drabek or a top prospect for the likes of Dotel or even Dye, you can get some young pieces that can either help on this club down the line, or part of a deep farm system that can be used in future trade discussions to obtain proven players. Look, i am not saying this b/c I think the season is over. I know the Sox CAN win this division. All im saying is I do not look at this sox team as anything more than a very flawed mediocre team, and at a time when teams do not want to add a ton of long term payroll for the top trade targets out there, guys like Jermaine and Dotel WILL have some value. And the part about how Major League Franchises should be run...i guarantee there are people within the Sox organization who are having the same debate that we are. It is a very logical to think that the Sox might be better in the long run by getting value for some of its pieces...if possible. Clearly who knows wht teams want, aor what Kenny will ask for...but it is an option that should and i am confident is being discussed. Kenny might decide to go for it, by either buying or standing pat. And that is fine. But it is ridiculous for people to not see why a team in the White Sox' position might consider selling. Fans always have hope. Fans always overrate their team during the preseason, and overrate their prospects in the minors. They overrate their ability to make a run in the playoffs etc... GMs dont. They have to be realistic. The one main part I do agree with is the effect it would have on the fans. Thats mostly b/c in my opinion most fans do not realizwe that for us this is enjoyment, but for KW and the Sox organization this is business.
clearly the sox are transitioning and i think the object is to turn the roster while always remaining competitive. they are slowly reducing both their age and costs while working the younger guys into the lineup. as good as they have been you cannot keep thome, konerko and dye forever. it is key to know when to cut them loose. not only does it make room for the prospects to come up but it free's payroll, too.

Red Barchetta
07-30-2009, 01:06 PM
I'll say this much: If the Sox lose this division by 2 or 3 games, we can look back at this road trip against our two division rivals and point to it as the stretch that got away from us. Go 4-3 on that trip instead of 1-6 and we are begging for Williams to do all he can by 29 hours from now to push us to the top.

If - and I say IF - the Sox finish "close, but no cigar," this past week may have been the season. You simply cannot lose the division games when your division sucks.

I agree that this recent stretch might prove to be key in the long run. The second stretch IMO would be the homestand the first week in June after we had just swept KC. We climbed back to .500 (ish) and were playing some weak teams. We ended up with a homestand record of 4-8 against Oakland, Cleveland and Detroit. :angry:

I'm sure I will get excited again when this team has a good stretch, however we need more consistency. A hot streak can win this division.

Ranger
07-30-2009, 01:11 PM
Can we also admit, though, that Ozzie makes some questionable lineup and bullpen decisions?

Does any manager ever NOT make a questionable decision? But to dig deeper, what questionable decisions are you referring to? Ramirez batting second? Sure, it doesn't make sense on the surface but if you really examine why he did it, it makes pretty good sense given that player's ability. Ramirez needed to see fastballs at that time he was placed there. And with Pods getting on base a lot and Dye, Thome, PK behind him, Ramirez was going to see a ton of straight stuff. And he did...and his batting average increased by 100 points. I don't know if that's what you were talking about, but it is the only one that seems questionable on teh surface.

As for the bullpen, I do not agree he makes poor decisions there very often. He manages like LaRussa manages with the matchups. I have very little problem with how he manages a bullpen. Just because you bring in a guy who implodes, doesn't mean it was the wrong call to make.

Ranger
07-30-2009, 01:25 PM
He certainly tried to trade Dye (and Mark Beuhrle) in 2007. He gave Iguchi to the Phillies.
He wanted to dump Uribe, but Ozzie talked him out of it. He iced Mack in the late summer.
He did dump the bench (cintron, gonzales and assorted other clowns).
He added Ramirez
He dumped Ozzie's main man Erstad; He kept Jerry Owens, but the Sox were saved from that impending disaster by injury. This year, he got Williams to give the pitiful Wise a contract because he had him picked out as leadoff hitter.
He beefed up the pen behind Jenks.
He did a big roster makeover after 2007.
Putting together a roster is difficult...made more difficult when your manager has no eye for offensive talent,

Tragg, the lineup was virtually the same (with a couple of exceptions) from the end of 2007 to the beginning of 2008. Same core. An overhaul means you're doing a complete makeover. That means the core of your lineup changes drastically and the Sox did not do that after one of their worst seasons in years.

Therefore, the point is that if the Sox didn't make wholesale changes to a lineup after an atrocious offensive season, what would make anyone think that a single playoff win would force Williams to completely change his offseason plan and then be inspired to keep everyone? The bullpen was going to change, as bullpens do. That was a given. However, there were no alterations to the most important part of the lineup.

And "no eye for offensive talent?" What are you talking about? You go with what you have, Tragg. Are you implying the Sox had better options sitting on their bench while Ozzie was starting Wise and Erstad? Like he had Ichiro sitting in the dugout but said, "nah, I like this kid Wise...let's try him out."

LoveYourSuit
07-30-2009, 01:31 PM
Hey, Suit, imperfection is fine. So are strange opinions. It's when a person makes such assertions fueled by ignorance and pure negative emotion that I have a problem.




I dont' see where the ignorance, or me being ignorant comes when all I said was that the time has come to blow up an aging mediocre ball club to insert a bunch of youth to try to build up for a stronger future.

That has never happened in the game of baseball?

Overreaction from my part? Maybe.

I just have had about enough of all the excuse making BS that goes around. We have been spinning our wheels here for 3 seasons going back to 2nd half of 2006. I know people here take great pride for that division title last season, but I don't because of the bad quality of baseball we played that 2nd half which ultimately led to a quick exit in the post season.

It's not about the Dome, pitchers we haven't seen before, walker ball, injuries, etc. It's about players being held accountable on the field. The talent level is there, but the baseball IQ is not.

Waysouthsider
07-30-2009, 01:51 PM
What a nightmare.....I sure hope our guys find their bats for this week's series....

I'm anxious about my long awaited friday night tickets for the Yankees game....let's hope we can slam those $%*!#....

:o: :angry:

Ranger
07-30-2009, 01:55 PM
I dont' see where the ignorance, or me being ignorant comes when all I said was that the time has come to blow up an aging mediocre ball club to insert a bunch of youth to try to build up for a stronger future.

That has never happened in the game of baseball?

Overreaction from my part? Maybe.

I just have had about enough of all the excuse making BS that goes around. We have been spinning our wheels here for 3 seasons going back to 2nd half of 2006. I know people here take great pride for that division title last season, but I don't because of the bad quality of baseball we played that 2nd half which ultimately led to a quick exit in the post season.

It's not about the Dome, pitchers we haven't seen before, walker ball, injuries, etc. It's about players being held accountable on the field. The talent level is there, but the baseball IQ is not.

Why wouldn't you take some pride in a division title? Of course it's not a World Series, but it's still an accomplishment and it's a hell of a lot better than NOT going to the postseason. If you're only going to get enjoyment out of a season if they win the championship, then you're going to have a hell of a lot of disappointing years from here on out, young man.

But at least you've identified the overreaction on your part. Yes, "blow-ups" have occurred in the past. They're called the Pirates and Marlins. And before you bring me the, "well, it worked for the Marlins because they have 2 WS ttiles in 6 years, blah, blah, blah," you should realize that an organization can only get away with that sort of thing in Florida or some other town where nobody gives a **** about baseball. Just try unloading a WS champion the following season and see how the fan base reacts in Chicago. Besides, it's still one hell of a gamble to blow up a team like that, hope for some bad years and high draft picks, then figure you'll be a contender in 5 years time.

And finally, every organization owes it to its fans to give it a shot in a year where they are close to the playoffs. The Sox are 3 games out with 60 games left to play. If they resign themselves to the idea that they aren't going to the postseason and decide to launch everyone, you will be one of 10 people that will be happy about it. If they did what you wanted them to do right now, they would be absolutely torched on a national level. And they should. To give up on a season by blowing up a team at the end of July when the team is sniffing first place is inexcusable.

Domeshot17
07-30-2009, 02:01 PM
Why wouldn't you take some pride in a division title? Of course it's not a World Series, but it's still an accomplishment and it's a hell of a lot better than NOT going to the postseason. If you're only going to get enjoyment out of a season if they win the championship, then you're going to have a hell of a lot of disappointing years from here on out, young man.

But at least you've identified the overreaction on your part. Yes, "blow-ups" have occurred in the past. They're called the Pirates and Marlins. And before you bring me the, "well, it worked for the Marlins because they have 2 WS ttiles in 6 years, blah, blah, blah," you should realize that an organization can only get away with that sort of thing in Florida or some other town where nobody gives a **** about baseball. Just try unloading a WS champion the following season and see how the fan base reacts in Chicago. Besides, it's still one hell of a gamble to blow up a team like that, hope for some bad years and high draft picks, then figure you'll be a contender in 5 years time.

And finally, every organization owes it to its fans to give it a shot in a year where they are close to the playoffs. The Sox are 3 games out with 60 games left to play. If they resign themselves to the idea that they aren't going to the postseason and decide to launch everyone, you will be one of 10 people that will be happy about it. If they did what you wanted them to do right now, they would be absolutely torched on a national level. And they should. To give up on a season by blowing up a team at the end of July when the team is sniffing first place is inexcusable.

Ranger, While I do agree with you I enjoyed the blackout game and just being in the post season, but I somewhat disagree. I hate backing into the playoffs, and while we didn't "back in" last year because of the final 3 games, we did back in in terms of the final 2 weeks. To me, making the playoffs like that, With a team just above .500, in a way it would be like taking your cousin to prom (apologizes to those here who may have had to take your cousin to prom). In a way, yes, you are in a tux, you are at the prom, but its still not ideal.

I was disappointed overall because I think with a healthy Quentin last year we run away with the division. That said, this team currently is built to do what it is doing, hover around .500, compete, but have big swings. Would you say we are GOING FOR IT this year being close, or standing pat and hoping for the best?

ms620
07-30-2009, 02:02 PM
Why wouldn't you take some pride in a division title? Of course it's not a World Series, but it's still an accomplishment and it's a hell of a lot better than NOT going to the postseason. If you're only going to get enjoyment out of a season if they win the championship, then you're going to have a hell of a lot of disappointing years from here on out, young man.

But at least you've identified the overreaction on your part. Yes, "blow-ups" have occurred in the past. They're called the Pirates and Marlins. And before you bring me the, "well, it worked for the Marlins because they have 2 WS ttiles in 6 years, blah, blah, blah," you should realize that an organization can only get away with that sort of thing in Florida or some other town where nobody gives a **** about baseball. Just try unloading a WS champion the following season and see how the fan base reacts in Chicago. Besides, it's still one hell of a gamble to blow up a team like that, hope for some bad years and high draft picks, then figure you'll be a contender in 5 years time.

And finally, every organization owes it to its fans to give it a shot in a year where they are close to the playoffs. The Sox are 3 games out with 60 games left to play. If they resign themselves to the idea that they aren't going to the postseason and decide to launch everyone, you will be one of 10 people that will be happy about it. If they did what you wanted them to do right now, they would be absolutely torched on a national level. And they should. To give up on a season by blowing up a team at the end of July when the team is sniffing first place is inexcusable.

You are missing a very simple concept. THey do not need to trade everyone! IF they trade Jermaine, they will be essentially giving up on this season. BUT THAT DOESNT MAKE THEM A 65 WIN TEAM NEXT YEAR. With time, Kenny im sure would have a plan, expecially with the young talent we have in the minors. This is not a trade all or trade none situation.

KMcMahon817
07-30-2009, 02:04 PM
I cannot believe I just sat down and read all of that. Some of the stuff (pretty much only a few users, actually) people on here say is ridiculous. I've been following this board since the beginning of the season, and pretty much only observed for a month, and have slowly began to comment every now and then. The lack of confidence and just down right stupidity that alot the posts show just amazes me. 3 games out with 60 games to play and people want to call up the AA team for the next 2 months? Please. What a joke that would be. Suit, not one of those guys you have mentioned are ready to be on the ML club, plain and simple. That would be an absolute disaster, and frankly, extremely em barresing. It was almost comical when I first started looking at this board at how negative people were. And then, when the Sox started to win a little, magically everyone jumped back on the bandwagon. Now, they have a tough week, they're 3 out, and a few users make this board painful to read by wanting to call up the farm. Gag me.

ms620
07-30-2009, 02:08 PM
I cannot believe I just sat down and read all of that. Some of the stuff (pretty much only a few users, actually) people on here say is ridiculous. I've been following this board since the beginning of the season, and pretty much only observed for a month, and have slowly began to comment every now and then. The lack of confidence and just down right stupidity that alot the posts show just amazes me. 3 games out with 60 games to play and people want to call up the AA team for the next 2 months? Please. What a joke that would be. Suit, not one of those guys you have mentioned are ready to be on the ML club, plain and simple. That would be an absolute disaster, and frankly, extremely em barresing. It was almost comical when I first started looking at this board at how negative people were. And then, when the Sox started to win a little, magically everyone jumped back on the bandwagon. Now, they have a tough week, they're 3 out, and a few users make this board painful to read by wanting to call up the farm. Gag me.

So ones opinion that the Sox should focus more on the future is embarrassing? Ones realistic opinion of the team that differs from yours is embarrassing? GMs have to make this decision all of the time. They can't worry about fans who are worried about what they are going to do at night if the Sox are not playing meaningful games. The need to do whats best for the future of the organization...whether than means trade prospects for vets to win now,...or trade vets for prospects to win later..or stand pat. I wouldnt call any of those opinions comical though. That is just small minded.

PhillipsBubba
07-30-2009, 02:12 PM
Does any manager ever NOT make a questionable decision?

Everyone makes mistakes either of omission or commission. You just have to judge a managers performance over the long haul.

It seems that players in all sports stop responding to managers or coaches after a while.

Are the White Sox responding to OG's managerial techniques? It is my opinion that he manages passively and allows things to take shape out on the field.

He'll have a spurt where he really seems in control (steals, hit and runs, bunts) then other times where he spends an inordinate amount of time gazing into the box seats.

There are many great managers who have been fired down through the years. Let's not hold OG up as some managerial deity who can't be questioned.

Ranger
07-30-2009, 02:29 PM
Would you say we are GOING FOR IT this year being close, or standing pat and hoping for the best?

Well, to me, standing pat and going for it are not necessarily different. The point is that they have a good chance to win this division and they should operate like they do. That means if they can make a nice pickup without giving up too much, then I'd say do it. What they should not do is try to dismantle the club.


You are missing a very simple concept. THey do not need to trade everyone! IF they trade Jermaine, they will be essentially giving up on this season. BUT THAT DOESNT MAKE THEM A 65 WIN TEAM NEXT YEAR. With time, Kenny im sure would have a plan, expecially with the young talent we have in the minors. This is not a trade all or trade none situation.

I think you are missing the concept. The concept is that I was responding to a "blow it up and start over" attitude. You're having a different argument than I am, but while were on it...

Trading Dye, on its own, does not make them a 65 win team next year necessarily. I'm not really sure who said it did, but I did not. However, you aren't going to get the prospects in return for Dye that you seem to think you would. At his age, you will not get top level prospects.

But to my point earlier, giving up on a season when you're 3 games out in late July is absurd.


Are the White Sox responding to OG's managerial techniques? It is my opinion that he manages passively and allows things to take shape out on the field.

He'll have a spurt where he really seems in control (steals, hit and runs, bunts) then other times where he spends an inordinate amount of time gazing into the box seats.

There are many great managers who have been fired down through the years. Let's not hold OG up as some managerial deity who can't be questioned.

Then let's not hold him down as a manager that does everything wrong, either. Ozzie does much more right than wrong. I don't care how much he looks into the stands...he knows what's going on during the game.

Anyway, in Major League Baseball, most managers allow things to take shape on the field with minimal "play-calling". This game is a little different than the other Big 4 sports. The steals and H&R's will happen on the same days he's looking into the stands.

kellykid
07-30-2009, 02:30 PM
But to my point earlier, giving up on a season when you're 3 games out in late July is absurd.




Exactly!

Domeshot17
07-30-2009, 02:39 PM
I agree they should not dismantle. There are a few guys I would deal if offered a nice package like Thome or Contreras. I just hate being in limbo. I dislike that we are in the spot were we are not going to buy or sell. This team is clearly not a title contender. I know anything can happen in October, but this teams overall talent level doesn't scream competing with Boston or the Yanks or the Angels or the Phillies. It is almost as if we are treating this season like making the playoffs is the same as winning a title. The Reason I say this is because we went after Peavy when we were 6 back, and now that we have gone from tied to 3 back in a week, we seem happy adding Mark Kotsay and standing pat.