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View Full Version : BA traded to Boston for Mark Kotsay, Thread II


doublem23
07-29-2009, 06:47 PM
If AAAA outfielders get you all riled up, this is your thread!!!

Continued from: http://www.whitesoxinteractive.com/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=114070

Whitesoxfan23
07-29-2009, 06:48 PM
If AAAA outfielders get you all riled up, this is your thread!!!

Continued from: http://www.whitesoxinteractive.com/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=114070


Lol. Only on WSI.....

doublem23
07-29-2009, 06:49 PM
Lol. Only on WSI.....

Anything to distract us from the product on the field right now. :puking:

chisoxfanatic
07-29-2009, 06:51 PM
Anything to distract us from the product on the field right now. :puking:
Which is lower because Dewayne Wise is on this team instead of a player who is slightly better than him.

Whitesoxfan23
07-29-2009, 06:51 PM
Anything to distract us from the product on the field right now. :puking:


I would agree with that my friend.

kittle42
07-29-2009, 06:52 PM
Which is lower because Dewayne Wise is on this team instead of a player who is slightly better than him.

Excellent summation of the argument - and also a good summary of why it's stupid. We are arguing about the 25th roster spot. Way to go, Sox fans!

doublem23
07-29-2009, 06:54 PM
Which is lower because Dewayne Wise is on this team instead of a player who is slightly better than him.

That's right, I forgot the Sox would be 101-0 if BA were playing everyday. What this team is missing is replacing 1 AAAA OF who can't hit with another.

Come on.

Whitesoxfan23
07-29-2009, 06:54 PM
I am drinking a rootbeer and eating a Medium Cheese Pizza, while anxiously awaiting part 2 to this topic. Does anybody want a slice of pizza?

chisoxfanatic
07-29-2009, 06:55 PM
I am drinking a rootbeer and eating a Medium Cheese Pizza, while anxiously awaiting part 2 to this topic. Does anybody want a slice of pizza?
It depends on where it's from.

Whitesoxfan23
07-29-2009, 06:57 PM
It depends on where it's from.


Simple Simon's. It's pretty good.

areilly
07-29-2009, 08:39 PM
Which is lower because Dewayne Wise is on this team instead of a player who is slightly better than him.

OH SNAP!

I can't help but wonder whether this discussion is more damning of BA, OG, the Sox organization as a whole, or us.

Frater Perdurabo
07-29-2009, 08:57 PM
OH SNAP!

I can't help but wonder whether this discussion is more damning of BA, OG, the Sox organization as a whole, or us.

BA sucks.

Wise sucks more.

Ozzie sucks at talent evaluation.

The Sox suck at teaching fundamentals.

We all suck at communicating.

It's Dankerific
07-29-2009, 08:58 PM
See, we couldnt send down Wise because we'd lose him, and we needed depth if there was an injury. So we sent down Brian, even though he's better because he had an option. Then we traded him. Makes sense, right?

Rohan
07-29-2009, 09:00 PM
See, we couldnt send down Wise because we'd lose him, and we needed depth if there was an injury. So we sent down Brian, even though he's better because he had an option. Then we traded him. Makes sense, right?

Perfect sense!
http://www.icanhasforce.com/wp-content/uploads/2008/03/star-wars-darth-vader-sense.jpg

Madscout
07-29-2009, 09:01 PM
Excellent summation of the argument - and also a good summary of why it's stupid. We are arguing about the 25th roster spot. Way to go, Sox fans!
:blum:
"I think that we should have a word"

voodoochile
07-29-2009, 09:10 PM
See, we couldnt send down Wise because we'd lose him, and we needed depth if there was an injury. So we sent down Brian, even though he's better because he had an option. Then we traded him. Makes sense, right?

Consideing the guy we got back plays the OF too, seems fine to me...

tstrike2000
07-29-2009, 09:27 PM
No matter how much longer the discussion is going to be about BA, the only thing that matters is...HE GONE.

TheVulture
07-29-2009, 09:28 PM
Perfect sense!


That picture makes perfect sense. Darth Vader is thirsty and ocean water is undrinkable. Further, water from the faucet is contaminated, hence the filter.

thedudeabides
07-29-2009, 09:37 PM
That picture makes perfect sense. Darth Vader is thirsty and ocean water is undrinkable. Further, water from the faucet is contaminated, hence the filter.

I'm not sure how the Brita filter would hold up against saltwater. :D:

TomBradley72
07-30-2009, 07:55 AM
I don't care that we traded BA...but I'm not sure how Kotsay helps...he's another LH hitting OF, when we primarily need a RH off the bench to back up Pods or DWise. He's a LH hitting 1st baseman, which is OK, but we lose the ability to rest Thome against LH pitching with PK taking a day at DH, etc.

And as far as his pinch hitting skills, exactly which RH hitter will he be pinch hitting for? TCQ? Dye? Beckham? TCM? PK?

He seems like a decent pickup, but unless another move is coming...I'm don't see the fit.

spawn
07-30-2009, 07:59 AM
Which is lower because Dewayne Wise is on this team instead of a player who is slightly better than him.
Yeah...Because Dewayne Wise is the reason the Sox are losing games right now. :rolling:

jabrch
07-30-2009, 08:43 AM
Yeah...Because Dewayne Wise is the reason the Sox are losing games right now. :rolling:

It's unfortunate that OG didn't give Brian a chance. We'd be 15 games up right now. Remember, Brian's defense is at least, or maybe more important than PK's offense.

Silly. This entire chapter in WSI history is Jeremy Reed Silly. It is Chris Young Silly. It's actually worse - since we traded those guys BEFORE ever seeing them get 800 PAs in the majors.

Silly.

voodoochile
07-30-2009, 09:50 AM
I don't care that we traded BA...but I'm not sure how Kotsay helps...he's another LH hitting OF, when we primarily need a RH off the bench to back up Pods or DWise. He's a LH hitting 1st baseman, which is OK, but we lose the ability to rest Thome against LH pitching with PK taking a day at DH, etc.

And as far as his pinch hitting skills, exactly which RH hitter will he be pinch hitting for? TCQ? Dye? Beckham? TCM? PK?

He seems like a decent pickup, but unless another move is coming...I'm don't see the fit.

He came within about a millimeter of bat surface of proving you dead wrong last night...

Tragg
07-30-2009, 09:55 AM
Yeah...Because Dewayne Wise is the reason the Sox are losing games right now. :rolling:
Yea, hilarious.
You're right - down 2 runner on, 2outs in the ninth. Doesn't matter that Ozzie bats a .180 hitter with no power and a .245 obp....doesn't make difference. Nothing at all.
Hilarious.

See, we couldnt send down Wise because we'd lose him
Nobody can possibly believe that anyone would claim Wise. Those who say that are just GIGing to the extreme.

And then we just give players away for injured players that we don't need.

spawn
07-30-2009, 10:06 AM
Yea, hilarious.
You're right - down 2 runner on, 2outs in the ninth. Doesn't matter that Ozzie bats a .180 hitter with no power and a .245 obp....doesn't make difference. Nothing at all.

Just give players away, after your manager drives their value down to zilch.
Yeah, BA would've ripped a game tying HR were he batting in Wise's place. What was I thinking? :rolling:

Tragg
07-30-2009, 10:39 AM
Yeah, BA would've ripped a game tying HR were he batting in Wise's place. What was I thinking? :rolling:
Nor Fields; Ozzie Guillen sent him down so that he could keep DeWayne Wise.
100 ops points doesn't mean a thing
Power doesn't mean a thing.
Playoff teams typically feature .180 hitters who play lousy defense, who sometimes play leadoff to please the manager.
Giging to the extreme.

kittle42
07-30-2009, 10:46 AM
Nor Fields
100 ops points doesn't mean a thing
Power doesn't mean a thing.
Giging to the extreme.

DeWayne Wise is a horrible player. No bat, some speed, average-to-below-average defense depending on which OF position he's in. A dime a dozen.

Brian Anderson is a slightly less horrible player. Great defense, no bat.

Josh Fields is a slightly less horrible player than the other two. He's Russell Branyan with less skill.

Yet, we continue fighting over this as if any of the above players' presence on this team significantly impacts the team enough to make any kind of meaningful difference. And really the only reason is, and has been from the beginning, that a small group of people are big fans of Anderson.

He's gone, Fields is (hopefully) gone, and we all pray Wise is gone at the end of the season or sooner.

Can't we ALL just shut the **** up now?

They all suck. Friggin' Pablo Ozuna was more valuable than each of them, and he, as he should be, is not in the majors.

spawn
07-30-2009, 10:58 AM
DeWayne Wise is a horrible player. No bat, some speed, average-to-below-average defense depending on which OF position he's in. A dime a dozen.

Brian Anderson is a slightly less horrible player. Great defense, no bat.

Josh Fields is a slightly less horrible player than the other two. He's Russell Branyan with less skill.

Yet, we continue fighting over this as if any of the above players' presence on this team significantly impacts the team enough to make any kind of meaningful difference. And really the only reason is, and has been from the beginning, that a small group of people are big fans of Anderson.

He's gone, Fields is (hopefully) gone, and we all pray Wise is gone at the end of the season or sooner.

Can't we ALL just shut the **** up now?

They all suck. Friggin' Pablo Ozuna was more valuable than each of them, and he, as he should be, is not in the majors.
That pretty much sums up how I feel about thias whole sordid situation.

Dibbs
07-30-2009, 11:27 AM
DeWayne Wise is a horrible player. No bat, some speed, average-to-below-average defense depending on which OF position he's in. A dime a dozen.

Brian Anderson is a slightly less horrible player. Great defense, no bat.

Josh Fields is a slightly less horrible player than the other two. He's Russell Branyan with less skill.

Yet, we continue fighting over this as if any of the above players' presence on this team significantly impacts the team enough to make any kind of meaningful difference. And really the only reason is, and has been from the beginning, that a small group of people are big fans of Anderson.

He's gone, Fields is (hopefully) gone, and we all pray Wise is gone at the end of the season or sooner.

Can't we ALL just shut the **** up now?

They all suck. Friggin' Pablo Ozuna was more valuable than each of them, and he, as he should be, is not in the majors.

This may all be true, but why keep the worst player of all three? I think that is what many are upset about.

jabrch
07-30-2009, 11:30 AM
DeWayne Wise is a horrible player. No bat, some speed, average-to-below-average defense depending on which OF position he's in. A dime a dozen.

Brian Anderson is a slightly less horrible player. Great defense, no bat.

Josh Fields is a slightly less horrible player than the other two. He's Russell Branyan with less skill.

Yet, we continue fighting over this as if any of the above players' presence on this team significantly impacts the team enough to make any kind of meaningful difference. And really the only reason is, and has been from the beginning, that a small group of people are big fans of Anderson.

He's gone, Fields is (hopefully) gone, and we all pray Wise is gone at the end of the season or sooner.

Can't we ALL just shut the **** up now?

They all suck. Friggin' Pablo Ozuna was more valuable than each of them, and he, as he should be, is not in the majors.

You sir...are awesome! What a bunch of horsecrap.

spawn
07-30-2009, 11:36 AM
This may all be true, but why keep the worst player of all three? I think that is what many are upset about.
That's like asking to chosoe betwen a pile of ****, a load of ****, and a **** sandwich.

kittle42
07-30-2009, 11:43 AM
This may all be true, but why keep the worst player of all three? I think that is what many are upset about.

It's a valid question. It may be a stupid personnel decision. My point is it's not a decision that should impact this team in any substantial way. Three horse**** players - the only reason most people care about which one stayed is because they are fans of either or both of the other two. I get it.

It's not like they were deciding whether to keep Mark Buehrle, Gavin Floyd or DJ Carrasco. That's easy to do. It's more like they were deciding whether to keep Todd Ritchie, Jaime Navarro or Danny Wright.

skobabe8
07-30-2009, 11:59 AM
DeWayne Wise is a horrible player. No bat, some speed, average-to-below-average defense depending on which OF position he's in. A dime a dozen.

Brian Anderson is a slightly less horrible player. Great defense, no bat.

Josh Fields is a slightly less horrible player than the other two. He's Russell Branyan with less skill.

Yet, we continue fighting over this as if any of the above players' presence on this team significantly impacts the team enough to make any kind of meaningful difference. And really the only reason is, and has been from the beginning, that a small group of people are big fans of Anderson.

He's gone, Fields is (hopefully) gone, and we all pray Wise is gone at the end of the season or sooner.

Can't we ALL just shut the **** up now?

They all suck. Friggin' Pablo Ozuna was more valuable than each of them, and he, as he should be, is not in the majors.

Why didn't you say that on the first page of the original thread??

You could have saved everyone their time. :D:

spawn
07-30-2009, 12:05 PM
Why didn't you say that on the first page of the original thread??

You could have saved everyone their time. :D:
It wouldn't have mattered. This, or something to that effect has been said since Opening Day.

Madvora
07-30-2009, 12:14 PM
It's more like they were deciding whether to keep Todd Ritchie, Jaime Navarro or Danny Wright.
Oh GOD!

DumpJerry
07-30-2009, 12:19 PM
Why didn't you say that on the first page of the original thread??

You could have saved everyone their time. :D:
Nope. He used the words "horrible" and "Brian Anderson" in the same sentence. That is enough to touch off a firestorm.

Tragg
07-30-2009, 12:23 PM
That's like asking to chosoe betwen a pile of ****, a load of ****, and a **** sandwich.
No it isn't. ONe is a 32 year old career minor leaguer hitting 100 OPS points below the others...that's the one Ozzie picked. And then not pinch-hitting for him?
It's simply indefensible.
It's either Guillen's complete inability to judge talent, or his ego putting personal grudges ahead of talent or both.

kittle42
07-30-2009, 12:27 PM
No it isn't. ONe is a 32 year old career minor leaguer hitting 100 OPS points below the others...that's the one Ozzie picked. And then not pinch-hitting for him?
It's simply indefensible.
It's either Guillen's complete inability to judge talent, or his ego putting personal grudges ahead of talent or both.

None of the three have much talent, so there isn't much for Guillen to judge.

Can't we just give this up? It's done.

DumpJerry
07-30-2009, 12:46 PM
Can't we just give this up? It's done.
Well, nobody is forcing you to read this thread or post in it. Only you have the power to resist........

It's Dankerific
07-30-2009, 12:47 PM
It's unfortunate that OG didn't give Brian a chance. We'd be 15 games up right now. Remember, Brian's defense is at least, or maybe more important than PK's offense.

Silly. This entire chapter in WSI history is Jeremy Reed Silly. It is Chris Young Silly. It's actually worse - since we traded those guys BEFORE ever seeing them get 800 PAs in the majors.

Silly.

The 4-7 record since BA was sent to the minors is more coincidence, I suppose.

He came within about a millimeter of bat surface of proving you dead wrong last night...

But, in fact, it was an out and a loss. You know what they say about horseshoes and hand grenades.

Yea, hilarious.
You're right - down 2 runner on, 2outs in the ninth. Doesn't matter that Ozzie bats a .180 hitter with no power and a .245 obp....doesn't make difference. Nothing at all.
Hilarious.

Nobody can possibly believe that anyone would claim Wise. Those who say that are just GIGing to the extreme.

And then we just give players away for injured players that we don't need.

BUT, if Wise had gotten a hit, Ozzie could have shut up everyone!

Yeah, BA would've ripped a game tying HR were he batting in Wise's place. What was I thinking? :rolling:

I guess a huge chance more of a basehit or a walk (and a HR or XBH) means nothing. I get the program.

Nor Fields; Ozzie Guillen sent him down so that he could keep DeWayne Wise.
100 ops points doesn't mean a thing
Power doesn't mean a thing.
Playoff teams typically feature .180 hitters who play lousy defense, who sometimes play leadoff to please the manager.
Giging to the extreme.

We just don't understand the magic that Wise brings to the table, Tragg.

This may all be true, but why keep the worst player of all three? I think that is what many are upset about.

Personally, I think there is a difference between 1 day old meat, 2 day old meat, and 3 day old meat. Apparently not here.

That's like asking to chosoe betwen a pile of ****, a load of ****, and a **** sandwich.

see above.

No it isn't. ONe is a 32 year old career minor leaguer hitting 100 OPS points below the others...that's the one Ozzie picked. And then not pinch-hitting for him?
It's simply indefensible.
It's either Guillen's complete inability to judge talent, or his ego putting personal grudges ahead of talent or both.

OPS. Is that another one of your fancy calculator numbers?

None of the three have much talent, so there isn't much for Guillen to judge.

Can't we just give this up? It's done.

Not when we'll have to live with this crappy decision, indefinitely.

spawn
07-30-2009, 12:50 PM
Personally, I think there is a difference between 1 day old meat, 2 day old meat, and 3 day old meat. Apparently not here.

Well, I'm no fan of liver. So for me, there is no difference between 1 day old liver, 2 day old liver, and 3 day old liver. It's all terrible to me.

kittle42
07-30-2009, 12:51 PM
Well, nobody is forcing you to read this thread or post in it. Only you have the power to resist........

You are right, Dump. It's like arguing religion with the religious...I can't ever win against people who are so convinced of something, but I can't keep myself from doing it because the very concept befuddles the hell out of me.

It's Dankerific
07-30-2009, 12:51 PM
Well, I'm no fan of liver. So for me, there is no difference between 1 day old liver, 2 day old liver, and 3 day old liver. It's all terrible to me.

Just FYI, 3 day old liver is a lot more likely to cause violent poops than the 1 day old.

spawn
07-30-2009, 12:52 PM
Just FYI, 3 day old liver is a lot more likely to cause violent poops than the 1 day old.
Seeing as I wouldn't even eat the one day old liver, it really wouldn't matter.

It's Dankerific
07-30-2009, 12:58 PM
Seeing as I wouldn't even eat the one day old liver, it really wouldn't matter.

Someday, like the White Sox, you might not have the choice. Then, Don't be like Ozzie. Pick the one day.

spawn
07-30-2009, 12:59 PM
Someday, like the White Sox, you might not have the choice. Then, Don't be like Ozzie. Pick the one day.
Well, the one day sucks too.

DumpJerry
07-30-2009, 12:59 PM
Seeing as I wouldn't even eat the one day old liver, it really wouldn't matter.
Come on, liver is good for you. Rich in iron. It is, however, high in cholesterol. Therefore liver is like a baseball player who has a good glove, but mediocre bat. I can't think of any MLB players like that since those kinds of player tend to stay in AAA because good bats bring more to the table than a good glove which gets about 7 chances per game to prove himself.

Ok, enough about liver, back to our regularly scheduled high-brow discussion.

Jim Shorts
07-30-2009, 01:03 PM
And this thread should now be finished.

jabrch
07-30-2009, 01:06 PM
Well, I'm no fan of liver. So for me, there is no difference between 1 day old liver, 2 day old liver, and 3 day old liver. It's all terrible to me.

And to me there is no difference between 6 month old liver, 7 month old liver and 8 month old liver when it was all sitting out in the hot sun.

They all suck...

asindc
07-30-2009, 01:06 PM
I'm upset with myself for having read this far.:mad:

TomBradley72
07-30-2009, 01:21 PM
He came within about a millimeter of bat surface of proving you dead wrong last night...

I'm not being critical of Kotsay...I just meant from a roster "design"...seems like we need a right handed bat to offset Pods/Wise/Thome as well as for pinch hitting purposes since I think it will be rare for us to ever pinch hit for one of our RH hitting starters.

It's Dankerific
07-30-2009, 01:24 PM
And to me there is no difference between 6 month old liver, 7 month old liver and 8 month old liver when it was all sitting out in the hot sun.

They all suck...

I've been convinced. We should eat the 8 month old liver just because we can, that'll prove everyone we decide what we put in our ****ing mouths!

Ranger
07-30-2009, 01:38 PM
Personally, I think there is a difference between 1 day old meat, 2 day old meat, and 3 day old meat. Apparently not here.



I'm sorry, but this is just a terrible analogy when applied to the 3 players we're discussing. To use this analogy assumes one of them is the equivalent to edible meat while another is meat that has a chance to make you ill. The implication is that one is a drastically better option than the latter.

Can you honestly say, with a straight face, that one of those 3 players is so much better than the other two that it even warrants an argument?

Boondock Saint
07-30-2009, 01:42 PM
I'm sorry, but this is just a terrible analogy when applied to the 3 players we're discussing. To use this analogy assumes one of them is the equivalent to edible meat while another is meat that has a chance to make you ill. The implication is that one is a drastically better option than the latter.

Can you honestly say, with a straight face, that one of those 3 players is so much better than the other two that it even warrants an argument?

:welcome:

It's Dankerific
07-30-2009, 01:45 PM
I'm sorry, but this is just a terrible analogy when applied to the 3 players we're discussing. To use this analogy assumes one of them is the equivalent to edible meat while another is meat that has a chance to make you ill. The implication is that one is a drastically better option than the latter.

Can you honestly say, with a straight face, that one of those 3 players is so much better than the other two that it even warrants an argument?

100%.

And the fact that White Sox management was incapable of noticing is an indictment of their abilities.

DumpJerry
07-30-2009, 01:48 PM
Can you honestly say, with a straight face, that one of those 3 players is so much better than the other two that it even warrants an argument?

100%.

And the fact that White Sox management was incapable of noticing is an indictment of their abilities.
Ranger: just what was the response you were expecting? I'm sure It's Dankerific's IP address traces back to the offices of Brian Anderson's agent. Who else would be so objective about such a mediocre player?

Domeshot17
07-30-2009, 01:50 PM
I'm sorry, but this is just a terrible analogy when applied to the 3 players we're discussing. To use this analogy assumes one of them is the equivalent to edible meat while another is meat that has a chance to make you ill. The implication is that one is a drastically better option than the latter.

Can you honestly say, with a straight face, that one of those 3 players is so much better than the other two that it even warrants an argument?


You can. Its called production. I don't know what kind of message it sends to the team, especially the younger kids, that how well you perform is not as important as how your manager feels about you. This is 2 choices the Sox have made on preference over statistics.

I understand none of the 3 are good options on a real contending team, but then why has Kenny not gone out and gotten a CF to replace Wise, who is one of the 5 worst statistical hitters in the majors right now? Are we expected to take this team serious when we are just laying down in key series, and our manager and GM are making choices that hinder this team? I would have zero problem replacing Anderson or Fields with an upgrade, and while Kotsay IS an upgrade over Fields in a way, Fields was the only legit source of Power off the bench. And we still have Wise waisting a 25 man roster spot.

I just can not wait until we get past this whole "Grinder" crap. Add Grinder to Chicago Tough as a phrase I wish I could never hear again. Grinders did not win a title in 2005, lights out pitching did. Also, the whole idea of a "grinder" being Erstad and Kotsay etc. and not guys like Iguchi who knew how to move runners along and hit in key spots etc. It is just different.

oeo
07-30-2009, 01:52 PM
You can. Its called production. I don't know what kind of message it sends to the team, especially the younger kids, that how well you perform is not as important as how your manager feels about you. This is 2 choices the Sox have made on preference over statistics.

I understand none of the 3 are good options on a real contending team, but then why has Kenny not gone out and gotten a CF to replace Wise, who is one of the 5 worst statistical hitters in the majors right now? Are we expected to take this team serious when we are just laying down in key series, and our manager and GM are making choices that hinder this team? I would have zero problem replacing Anderson or Fields with an upgrade, and while Kotsay IS an upgrade over Fields in a way, Fields was the only legit source of Power off the bench. And we still have Wise waisting a 25 man roster spot.

I just can not wait until we get past this whole "Grinder" crap. Add Grinder to Chicago Tough as a phrase I wish I could never hear again. Grinders did not win a title in 2005, lights out pitching did. Also, the whole idea of a "grinder" being Erstad and Kotsay etc. and not guys like Iguchi who knew how to move runners along and hit in key spots etc. It is just different.

No one talks about grinders more than Domeshot17...

And good lord, get over your, 'Ozzie hates Brian' bull ****. It's as true as 'Ozzie favors Latin players.' Never have I seen a bad player so loved and overrated. Thank you Kenny for getting rid of him.

Domeshot17
07-30-2009, 01:54 PM
No one talks about grinders more than Domeshot17...

:rolleyes: We are not allowed to qoute from articles anymore, but it was right in the White Sox press release I believe from Merkin when we got him. It pretty much said Kotsay falls in the line with the ideal Grinders that Kenny Williams loves.

Edit to your Edit: I don't even love Brian, As I have said, I would have no problem if he was replaced by an upgrade. But Anderson had outplayed Wise, there is zero denying that. This isn't even a FOBA vs EOBA argument. Its just my opinion vs the ozzpologists.

doublem23
07-30-2009, 01:55 PM
No one talks about grinders more than Domeshot17...

I was wondering where that came from. :scratch:

He's just not Chicago tough enough to love grinders.

oeo
07-30-2009, 01:57 PM
:rolleyes: We are not allowed to qoute from articles anymore, but it was right in the White Sox press release I believe from Merkin when we got him. It pretty much said Kotsay falls in the line with the ideal Grinders that Kenny Williams loves.

Oh, since the Sox beat writer said it...

Grinder is just some dumb 'term' Kenny came up with. Yeah, he uses it a lot, but you take it way too seriously. Now we're trying to build a team full of 'grinders?' *****.

And once again, what exactly was Anderson?

It's Dankerific
07-30-2009, 01:59 PM
Oh, since the Sox beat writer said it...

You certainly can't believe the White Sox website.

voodoochile
07-30-2009, 02:00 PM
You can. Its called production. I don't know what kind of message it sends to the team, especially the younger kids, that how well you perform is not as important as how your manager feels about you. This is 2 choices the Sox have made on preference over statistics.

I understand none of the 3 are good options on a real contending team, but then why has Kenny not gone out and gotten a CF to replace Wise, who is one of the 5 worst statistical hitters in the majors right now? Are we expected to take this team serious when we are just laying down in key series, and our manager and GM are making choices that hinder this team? I would have zero problem replacing Anderson or Fields with an upgrade, and while Kotsay IS an upgrade over Fields in a way, Fields was the only legit source of Power off the bench. And we still have Wise waisting a 25 man roster spot.

I just can not wait until we get past this whole "Grinder" crap. Add Grinder to Chicago Tough as a phrase I wish I could never hear again. Grinders did not win a title in 2005, lights out pitching did. Also, the whole idea of a "grinder" being Erstad and Kotsay etc. and not guys like Iguchi who knew how to move runners along and hit in key spots etc. It is just different.

I'd say the message is pretty clear...

If you suck, you won't start.

If you don't start there is a chance you won't get to sit on the bench either.

If you then request a trade, don't expect to get traded somewhere you will get the chance to start.

Wise has proven he's not the defensive liability some have made him out to be. Since neither Wise or BA can hit for **** over the course of their career other factors may have contributed to keeping Wise. Some of that may have been his better speed some of that may have been his attitude (I don't know, merely tossing out that it is a possibility) some may have been the desire to keep them both until BA requested the trade and then they found a guy who can sit on the bench and backup both OF and 1B and has at least some history of not completely sucking with his bat even if he's been having a down year this year.

Now go ahead and scream 100 OPS higher a few more times. It's been great for some laughs...

CLR01
07-30-2009, 02:01 PM
None of the three have much talent, so there isn't much for Guillen to judge.

Can't we just give this up? It's done.


As usual if not for the haters this thread would have had about 40 posts.


THE FOBA ARE RUINING THIS SITE I TELL YOU :lol:

Domeshot17
07-30-2009, 02:03 PM
Oh, since the Sox beat writer said it...

Grinder is just some dumb 'term' Kenny came up with. Yeah, he uses it a lot, but you take it way too seriously. Now we're trying to build a team full of 'grinders?' *****.

And once again, what exactly was Anderson?

Keep ignoring the fact my point isn't Brian can be a star. I have never said that. I simply said for the 25th man, give me the better of the 2 players. Brian is better on defense, the Better hitter (which is a tallest midget contest) and the better overall base runner.

It's Dankerific
07-30-2009, 02:03 PM
I'd say the message is pretty clear...

If you suck, you won't start.


Unless you are Wise, Erstad, or Mack

If you don't start there is a chance you won't get to sit on the bench either.

Unless you are Wise, Erstad or Mack

If you then request a trade, don't expect to get traded somewhere you will get the chance to start.

irrelevant

Wise has proven he's not the defensive liability some have made him out to be. Since neither Wise or BA can hit for **** over the course of their career other factors may have contributed to keeping Wise. Some of that may have been his better speed some of that may have been his attitude (I don't know, merely tossing out that it is a possibility) some may have been the desire to keep them both until BA requested the trade and then they found a guy who can sit on the bench and backup both OF and 1B and has at least some history of not completely sucking with his bat even if he's been having a down year this year.

Now go ahead and scream 100 OPS higher a few more times. It's been great for some laughs...

a down year this year. Thats amazing. I forgot how great he's been the rest of his career, while better stats from Brian is just great for some laughs.

The way you are talking you'd think OPS was made up by a 5 year old.

CLR01
07-30-2009, 02:04 PM
Now go ahead and scream 100 OPS higher a few more times. It's been great for some laughs...


Funny, you're he one who has been shouting about OPS for most of the season. :scratch:

Domeshot17
07-30-2009, 02:06 PM
I'd say the message is pretty clear...

If you suck, you won't start.

If you don't start there is a chance you won't get to sit on the bench either.

If you then request a trade, don't expect to get traded somewhere you will get the chance to start.

Wise has proven he's not the defensive liability some have made him out to be. Since neither Wise or BA can hit for **** over the course of their career other factors may have contributed to keeping Wise. Some of that may have been his better speed some of that may have been his attitude (I don't know, merely tossing out that it is a possibility) some may have been the desire to keep them both until BA requested the trade and then they found a guy who can sit on the bench and backup both OF and 1B and has at least some history of not completely sucking with his bat even if he's been having a down year this year.

Now go ahead and scream 100 OPS higher a few more times. It's been great for some laughs...

Just because Wise made 1 fantastic catch does not mean he is still not an average center fielder at best. I gave him all the praise in the world for that, but he still isn't a very good CF. That is like if I said because Fields hit a grand slam in the perfect game, He has proven he is not the slouch at the plate many say.

And yes, that 100 points is pretty big. If you had to pick the guy who has a 22% chance to get on base or a 32% chance to get on base, which one would you go with? The only thing good for the laughs is the ozzpologists acting like stats mean nothing.

voodoochile
07-30-2009, 02:06 PM
Unless you are Wise, Erstad, or Mack

Unless you are Wise, Erstad or Mack

irrelevant


a down year this year. Thats amazing. I forgot how great he's been the rest of his career, while better stats from Brian is just great for some laughs.

The way you are talking you'd think OPS was made up by a 5 year old.

Okay, maybe I oversimplified things...

If you suck and have no history of not sucking then you will at best sit on the bench.

Over the course of their careers the difference in OPS between BA and Wise is less than 30 points. That's why I ridiculed the 100 OPS argument. It doesn't hold water over the long term.

Domeshot17
07-30-2009, 02:09 PM
Okay, maybe I oversimplified things...

If you suck and have no history of not sucking then you will at best sit on the bench.

Over the course of their careers the difference in OPS between BA and Wise is less than 30 points. That's why I ridiculed the 100 OPS argument. It doesn't hold water over the long term.

Wise only has 2 seasons to compare too.

You run a restaurant. If you had one month of steady orders, and 1 month of almost no orders, would you stay calm and say history says you will pick back up, or would you kind of worry about that down month and try to bring in new customers.

Ranger
07-30-2009, 02:10 PM
Look, Lip, it can be done. You can learn to use the multi-quote function as I have just done. I'm thrilled with my new knowledge. Now, on we go...


You can. Its called production. I don't know what kind of message it sends to the team, especially the younger kids, that how well you perform is not as important as how your manager feels about you. This is 2 choices the Sox have made on preference over statistics.

I understand none of the 3 are good options on a real contending team, but then why has Kenny not gone out and gotten a CF to replace Wise, who is one of the 5 worst statistical hitters in the majors right now? Are we expected to take this team serious when we are just laying down in key series, and our manager and GM are making choices that hinder this team? I would have zero problem replacing Anderson or Fields with an upgrade, and while Kotsay IS an upgrade over Fields in a way, Fields was the only legit source of Power off the bench. And we still have Wise waisting a 25 man roster spot.


Would you like to highlight for us this "production" you speak of? Didn't seem to me any of them were producing anything. Each one has a single asset, really. BA can field, Fields has power, and Wise has speed. They opted for a late inning pinch runner. It's not "grinder" thing or a "Ozzie's favorites" thing. They made a decision that they want late inning speed off the bench...ya know, that thing called "speed" a lot of people around here used to complain about the lack of?



100%.

And the fact that White Sox management was incapable of noticing is an indictment of their abilities.

So, you're telling me you can, with a straight face, tell us that Brian Anderson is so much better and so much more valuable to a team than is DeWayne Wise, that it deserves an argument? And you're serious about that?


Oh and by the way, I agree with an earlier post about the "Ozzie hated BA" stuff. Can we please stop with that? I've seen the two of them interact on a regular basis since 2006. Ozzie did not dislike Anderson. Ozzie was upset with him one time 3 years ago when he was going out all the time and wasn't producing on the field. He did not hate BA and BA was not in Ozzie's "doghouse," so just stop with that nonsense.

Brian26
07-30-2009, 02:11 PM
Just because Wise made 1 fantastic catch does not mean he is still not an average center fielder at best.

Was that the perfect game catch or the catch in Detroit the very next day? I count more than one.

voodoochile
07-30-2009, 02:11 PM
Wise only has 2 seasons to compare too.

You run a restaurant. If you had one month of steady orders, and 1 month of almost no orders, would you stay calm and say history says you will pick back up, or would you kind of worry about that down month and try to bring in new customers.

Wise has 570+ career AB, BA has 780+.

The restaurant example is meaningless.

I'll try to walk away again. I know I can't win this argument.

It's Dankerific
07-30-2009, 02:14 PM
Okay, maybe I oversimplified things...

If you suck and have no history of not sucking then you will at best sit on the bench.

Over the course of their careers the difference in OPS between BA and Wise is less than 30 points. That's why I ridiculed the 100 OPS argument. It doesn't hold water over the long term.

Yes why keep the guy actually performing when we can hold on to the guy that's going to enter august with a sub .200 Batting Average and just HOPE that MAYBE he comes CLOSE to what the other guy was ALREADY doing.

How this makes sense, I have no idea.

Ranger
07-30-2009, 02:14 PM
Wise only has 2 seasons to compare too.

You run a restaurant. If you had one month of steady orders, and 1 month of almost no orders, would you stay calm and say history says you will pick back up, or would you kind of worry about that down month and try to bring in new customers.

Baseball players are not restaurants. Players often have down months and sometimes down years only to rebound later (Konerko, for example). Restaurants may not be able to afford a down month or two because they may not be able to stay open, depending on how bad things have been.

The analogies around here today are incredibly disappointing.

kittle42
07-30-2009, 02:16 PM
Keep ignoring the fact my point isn't Brian can be a star. I have never said that. I simply said for the 25th man, give me the better of the 2 players. Brian is better on defense, the Better hitter (which is a tallest midget contest) and the better overall base runner.

You are correct, and I don't think I personally ever said otherwise. In fact, I've stated since the season started that I felt Anderson is better than Wise. He's better statistically, and he's better talent-wise. He' s a better choice as a defensive replacement 4th OF, for sure.

The problem is you are on the same side of this thing as folks who continue the "Ozzie hates Anderson," "They never gave him a chance," and all that other unsubstantiated b.s. that they believe like a bible-beater believes the gospels.

The point since preseason has always been how can a few people get so worked up about a guy who, while better than DeWayne Wise, is not *that* much better to waste all this time getting worked up about? When you see people state that Anderson has saved so many runs, that his defense is worth more than the offense produced by any bat in the lineup, you can see how those of us who are not huge fans of Brian Anderson as a player start bashing our skulls against the wall.

It's the same as me being lumped in with "Ozzpolgists" or "GiGs." I have always criticized Guillen (and 50 cent Williams, even moreso). Ozzie's game managing often leaves a lot to be desired. His strangeths are (generally) taking teh media heat for his players, and being the face of the team. Strategically, I think he is not very good.

But since people can't deal with middle ground - or instead, choose not to - and would rather just toss "hater," "GiG," "FOBA v. EOBA" and all sorts of other labels around so they can have a quick list of talking points, I live with it. Both sides are guilty.

Domeshot17
07-30-2009, 02:16 PM
Look, Lip, it can be done. You can learn to use the multi-quote function as I have just done. I'm thrilled with my new knowledge. Now, on we go...




Would you like to highlight for us this "production" you speak of? Didn't seem to me any of them were producing anything. Each one has a single asset, really. BA can field, Fields has power, and Wise has speed. They opted for a late inning pinch runner. It's not "grinder" thing or a "Ozzie's favorites" thing. They made a decision that they want late inning speed off the bench...ya know, that thing called "speed" a lot of people around here used to complain about the lack of?





So, you're telling me you can, with a straight face, tell us that Brian Anderson is so much better and so much more valuable to a team than is DeWayne Wise, that it deserves an argument? And you're serious about that?


Oh and by the way, I agree with an earlier post about the "Ozzie hated BA" stuff. Can we please stop with that? I've seen the two of them interact on a regular basis since 2006. Ozzie did not dislike Anderson. Ozzie was upset with him one time 3 years ago when he was going out all the time and wasn't producing on the field. He did not hate BA and BA was not in Ozzie's "doghouse," so just stop with that nonsense.

I don't hear many people complaing for speed anymore. To me, and this has been my gripe, We have a terrible defensive OF in Quentin at 75%-Pods out of position-Dye at his age. I would take Brians defense in the 8th and 9th over Wise's speed, especially when Brian is a comparable base runner. I guess to me, the big thing was Brian was still getting on base at a .320 clip. Off the bench, with his D, I can live with that as the 25th man. Like I said, I know it is a tallest midget contest with the 2, but i just think we picked the shorter one.

Edit: And I also I never said Ozzie Hated BA. What I did say was Ozzie really has a soft spot for Wise. Ozzie doesn't go to the media and call out the fans often, and he keeps going to bat for Wise. I don't know how Ozzie feels about Brian, I just know how it appears Ozzie feels about Wise.

kittle42
07-30-2009, 02:17 PM
Oh and by the way, I agree with an earlier post about the "Ozzie hated BA" stuff. Can we please stop with that? I've seen the two of them interact on a regular basis since 2006. Ozzie did not dislike Anderson. Ozzie was upset with him one time 3 years ago when he was going out all the time and wasn't producing on the field. He did not hate BA and BA was not in Ozzie's "doghouse," so just stop with that nonsense.

What do you know? Do you cover the team every game? Oh, wait...

It's Dankerific
07-30-2009, 02:18 PM
Look, Lip, it can be done. You can learn to use the multi-quote function as I have just done. I'm thrilled with my new knowledge. Now, on we go...

Would you like to highlight for us this "production" you speak of? Didn't seem to me any of them were producing anything. Each one has a single asset, really. BA can field, Fields has power, and Wise has speed. They opted for a late inning pinch runner. It's not "grinder" thing or a "Ozzie's favorites" thing. They made a decision that they want late inning speed off the bench...ya know, that thing called "speed" a lot of people around here used to complain about the lack of?


I guess we'll just ignore that the "speed" guy is a worse baserunner than the "fielding, hitting better" guy.


So, you're telling me you can, with a straight face, tell us that Brian Anderson is so much better and so much more valuable to a team than is DeWayne Wise, that it deserves an argument? And you're serious about that?


I'd tell that to anyone you want to, in person. The only people not serious are people who would rather ignore hitting better, hitting with more power, running the bases better, getting on base more, running the bases better AND being several years younger.


Oh and by the way, I agree with an earlier post about the "Ozzie hated BA" stuff. Can we please stop with that? I've seen the two of them interact on a regular basis since 2006. Ozzie did not dislike Anderson. Ozzie was upset with him one time 3 years ago when he was going out all the time and wasn't producing on the field. He did not hate BA and BA was not in Ozzie's "doghouse," so just stop with that nonsense.

So, Ozzie just is clueless then? Ok. Whatever the situation is its messed up.

kittle42
07-30-2009, 02:20 PM
So, Ozzie just is clueless then? Ok. Whatever the situation is its messed up.

Not anymore, it isn't. It's non-existant.

Brian26
07-30-2009, 02:22 PM
You have two players with similar stats. One guy has all the potential in the world to be a five-tool player, but has consistently underachieved for the past four+ years. Then you have the other with less talent and less skill who consistently shows flashes of inspired play and overachieves in big situations. You have to look at the intangibles. Everything isn't as black or white as the numbers make it to be.

It's Dankerific
07-30-2009, 02:24 PM
Not anymore, it isn't. It's non-existant.

I forgot that all of our problems disappear with the trading of Brian Anderson. I didn't really like hunger and pestilence much anyways.

It's Dankerific
07-30-2009, 02:25 PM
You have two players with similar stats. One guy has all the potential in the world to be a five-tool player, but has consistently underachieved for the past four+ years. Then you have the other with less talent and less skill who consistently shows flashes of inspired play and overachieves in big situations. You have to look at the intangibles. Everything isn't as black or white as the numbers make it to be.

Yes, the magic/flair angle.

PhillipsBubba
07-30-2009, 02:25 PM
Oh and by the way, I agree with an earlier post about the "Ozzie hated BA" stuff. Can we please stop with that?

I agree...OG and the organization afforded BA ample opportunity to succeed. The responsibility falls on BA. He has admitted as much.

kellykid
07-30-2009, 02:26 PM
I agree...OG and the organization afforded BA ample opportunity to succeed. The responsibility falls on BA. He has admitted as much.

I'm in total agreement here:smile:

kittle42
07-30-2009, 02:28 PM
I forgot that all of our problems disappear with the trading of Brian Anderson.

The problem of having the danger of ever having Brian Anderson on the White Sox roster disappeared. Now if we can just have the Fields disappearance be permanent, and a permanent Wise disappearance to follow, we're on the right track! I wouldn't mind Colon staying gone, too.

JB98
07-30-2009, 02:45 PM
The problem of having the danger of ever having Brian Anderson on the White Sox roster disappeared. Now if we can just have the Fields disappearance be permanent, and a permanent Wise disappearance to follow, we're on the right track! I wouldn't mind Colon staying gone, too.

Agreed.

MacDougal, Betemit, Lillibridge, Gobble, Miller, Broadway, Anderson and Fields are all off the roster. Thank goodness for that. Hopefully, we won't have Wise and Colon around for too much longer.

KW has seen the error of his ways, I believe, and he's in the process of changing the roster.

wsgdf
07-30-2009, 03:50 PM
Unless you are Wise, Erstad, or Mack


So then the point really is... why won't they treat the crappy player I like as well as they treat the crappy players I don't like?

:whiner:


I'll bet it would be pretty hard to find another team that gave so many ABs to a hitter as worthless as BA over the past 4 years. There's probably a few catchers, maybe a SS...

wsgdf
07-30-2009, 03:56 PM
The 4-7 record since BA was sent to the minors is more coincidence, I suppose.



Is that a serious question?

:scratch:

Rohan
07-30-2009, 04:26 PM
Is that a serious question?

:scratch:


It's not really a question...

wsgdf
07-30-2009, 04:33 PM
It's not really a question...


Right...

So is it a serious supposition?

Rohan
07-30-2009, 04:36 PM
Yes... Because he states the record, admits that it could be a coincidence, but leaves the possibility that Anderson's presence could have changed those results.

wsgdf
07-30-2009, 04:41 PM
Yes... Because he states the record, admits that it could be a coincidence, but leaves the possibility that Anderson's presence could have changed those results.


The Red Sox are now 0-2 since the Kotsay trade. I suppose that's just a coincidence.

The White Sox are now 1-6 since Buehrle's perfect game. I suppose that's just a coincidence.

Rohan
07-30-2009, 04:49 PM
You're not very good at this game.

Have you seen the statistics that are put up on the centerfield board at U.S. Cellular? They're very similar to the statistic that Dankerific posted.

voodoochile
07-30-2009, 04:52 PM
The Red Sox are now 0-2 since the Kotsay trade. I suppose that's just a coincidence.

The White Sox are now 1-6 since Buehrle's perfect game. I suppose that's just a coincidence.

You're just going to end up with a headache from beating your head against the wall...

wsgdf
07-30-2009, 04:56 PM
You're not very good at this game.

Have you seen the statistics that are put up on the centerfield board at U.S. Cellular? They're very similar to the statistic that Dankerific posted.


I'm not at the Cell this very moment. Which statistics are you referring to?

jabrch
07-30-2009, 05:22 PM
I hope we never stop feeding the trolls. They provide a great deal of entertainment. I wonder who the next target of their love will be?

I don't hear much love for Jeremy Reed or Chris Young anymore. Soon BA will sit side by side in the ****box with them.

spawn
07-30-2009, 05:28 PM
I hope we never stop feeding the trolls. They provide a great deal of entertainment. I wonder who the next target of their love will be?

I don't hear much love for Jeremy Reed or Chris Young anymore. Soon BA will sit side by side in the ****box with them.
Josh Fields.

Taliesinrk
07-30-2009, 06:37 PM
Agreed.

MacDougal, Betemit, Lillibridge, Gobble, Miller, Broadway, Anderson and Fields are all off the roster. Thank goodness for that. Hopefully, we won't have Wise and Colon around for too much longer.

KW has seen the error of his ways, I believe, and he's in the process of changing the roster.

:o:

guillensdisciple
07-30-2009, 07:04 PM
I can't believe this trade caused two threads to open. We basically traded scrub for scrub. I don't get why everyone is tearing this thread apart.

dickallen15
07-30-2009, 08:39 PM
Brian Anderson's career OBP .288

Ozzie Guillen's career OBP .287

They both were excellent with the glove.

BleacherBandit
07-30-2009, 08:50 PM
Brian Anderson's career OBP .288

Ozzie Guillen's career OBP .287

They both were excellent with the glove.


Brian Anderson's career BA: .225

Ozzie Guillen's career BA: .264

At least he could hit consistently.

Brian26
07-30-2009, 09:51 PM
Brian Anderson's career OBP .288

Ozzie Guillen's career OBP .287

They both were excellent with the glove.

Talk about taking stats out of context...

Ozzie played 15 years in the league. Not counting his injury year of '92, his WORST season batting average was .241 when he was winding down his career in '99 with Atlanta. For the other 14 seasons, he floated between .260 and .280, with a couple of years slightly out of that range.

BA's BEST season batting average so far has been .232.

So, yes, Ozzie swung at everything and took very few walks.

canOcorn
07-30-2009, 09:54 PM
Brian Anderson's career OBP .288

Ozzie Guillen's career OBP .287

They both were excellent with the glove.

Yes, but Guillen was Grindy. :rolleyes:

dickallen15
07-30-2009, 11:05 PM
Talk about taking stats out of context...

Ozzie played 15 years in the league. Not counting his injury year of '92, his WORST season batting average was .241 when he was winding down his career in '99 with Atlanta. For the other 14 seasons, he floated between .260 and .280, with a couple of years slightly out of that range.

BA's BEST season batting average so far has been .232.

So, yes, Ozzie swung at everything and took very few walks.

Out of context? Ozzie was a guy who didn't drive in runs. Walks could have been a pretty good arsenal in his game. OBP was more meaningful for a guy like him than a guy who hits homers and drives home runners. It just shows that both were pathetic offensive players. I just find it funny that Ozzie talks about all the chances he gave BA and BA performed almost exactly like Ozzie did in his career. Ozzie was pissed off when he was given a big contract by the White Sox in 1997.

Brian26
07-30-2009, 11:12 PM
I just find it funny that Ozzie talks about all the chances he gave BA and BA performed almost exactly like Ozzie did in his career.

No he hasn't. I just explained the difference. Ozzie consistently hit .260-.280, while BA's career HIGH batting average is .232. Big difference.

wsgdf
07-30-2009, 11:17 PM
He was also a 3X All Star, ROY and a GG winner.

Taliesinrk
07-30-2009, 11:25 PM
No he hasn't. I just explained the difference. Ozzie consistently hit .260-.280, while BA's career HIGH batting average is .232. Big difference.

I actually find it odd that Guillen seems to (IMO) de-value players that play a similar type game that he did. Does anyone else know what I'm talking about here?

RedPinStripes
07-30-2009, 11:25 PM
Ozzie was a SS in the 80's when there were plenty of guys that played good defense and weren't expected to put up big numbers. Ozzie's stupidity for chasing low and outside pitches and getting throw out at 3rd never got him sent to the minors because he hit decent and played a good SS.

#1 draft pick CF's don't get that pass.

dickallen15
07-30-2009, 11:28 PM
No he hasn't. I just explained the difference. Ozzie consistently hit .260-.280, while BA's career HIGH batting average is .232. Big difference.

If you don't get many extra base hits and don't drive in runs OBP is more important that batting average. Not a big difference.

wsgdf
07-30-2009, 11:46 PM
Ozzie's game doesn't play as well now as it did 20 years ago. There were not a lot of guys in the game who could hit and play SS.

At the same time, he knew he had no offensive game - so he made contact, moved runners over, sacrificed, rarely struck out.

Anderson hasn't figured out he has no game yet - so he swings for the fence and rarely makes contact and demands to be traded.

Tragg
07-30-2009, 11:52 PM
No he hasn't. I just explained the difference. Ozzie consistently hit .260-.280, while BA's career HIGH batting average is .232. Big difference.
Not really.
Guillen had a career obp of .287 and career ops of .626
He was a terrible hitter
Even the maligned Anderson hit better than that.

Brian26
07-30-2009, 11:54 PM
You have two players with similar stats. One guy has all the potential in the world to be a five-tool player, but has consistently underachieved for the past four+ years. Then you have the other with less talent and less skill who consistently shows flashes of inspired play and overachieves in big situations. You have to look at the intangibles. Everything isn't as black or white as the numbers make it to be.

Yes, the magic/flair angle.

More magic tonight.

slavko
07-31-2009, 01:11 AM
Someone mentioned Anderson being our best fielding CF since Mike Cameron. I agree and think it's a good comparison. Mike had 2 late year callups then 2 full seasons with the club as our CF where he played the position regularly. He hit .210 his last year, never lost the job, was traded for PK after that season.

He's still in MLB, has had a long career playing CF regularly, hitting well enough to keep playing. That might be the future for Anderson.

wsgdf
07-31-2009, 01:20 AM
Cameron .210 his second year but that came off a rookie year when he was 24 and went .259/.356/.433.

After the trade for Konerko, he went .256/.357/.469 as a 26 year old and .267/.365/.438 in Seattle as a 27 year old.

I get the comparison, but Anderson is now 27 and has never come close to any of those numbers.

Actually, if you look at Cameron's entire career - he's only had one year that could be mistaken for a Brian Anderson year - and that was that 2nd season when he was 25 and batted .210/.285/.336.

gobears1987
07-31-2009, 01:52 AM
You can't compare Ozzie to BA. Ozzie could do things that BA could never dream of such as moving runners and not striking out. BA doesn't tell the full story and people forget in the 1980s that shortstops weren't expected to hit. It wasn't until ARod that shortstops were expected to fill an offensive spot. If BA could bunt, sacrifice, or just flat out move runners along, he would have a spot on the White Sox. Oh and BA's defense is overrated. He will never be an all-star and he will never win a gold glove. 4th outfielders can't win gold gloves and that is all BA will ever be.

Rohan
07-31-2009, 02:03 AM
You can't compare Ozzie to BA. Ozzie could do things that BA could never dream of such as moving runners and not striking out. BA doesn't tell the full story and people forget in the 1980s that shortstops weren't expected to hit. It wasn't until ARod that shortstops were expected to fill an offensive spot. If BA could bunt, sacrifice, or just flat out move runners along, he would have a spot on the White Sox. Oh and BA's defense is overrated. He will never be an all-star and he will never win a gold glove. 4th outfielders can't win gold gloves and that is all BA will ever be.

Brian can dream what ever he'd like :D:

BleacherBandit
07-31-2009, 02:11 AM
Brian can dream what ever he'd like :D:

Lloyd Braun can do anything he puts his mind to.

TomBradley72
07-31-2009, 09:07 AM
Mods: Is there anyway to program these boards where no more postings on the topic of how great BA is are allowed until this 27 y.o phenom hits at least .250 over a minimum of 100 ABs at the major league level?

Thank you for your consideration.

Jollyroger2
07-31-2009, 09:15 AM
mods: Is there anyway to program these boards where no more postings on the topic of how great ba is are allowed until this 27 y.o phenom hits at least .250 over a minimum of 100 abs at the major league level?

Thank you for your consideration.

+1

CLR01
07-31-2009, 09:30 AM
Mods: Is there anyway to program these boards where no more postings on the topic of how great BA is are allowed until this 27 y.o phenom hits at least .250 over a minimum of 100 ABs at the major league level?

Thank you for your consideration.


Brian Anderson, July 1st-Aug 31 2006- 135 abs, 41 hits, .303 avg.


You=total fail

ode to veeck
07-31-2009, 09:57 AM
Brian Anderson, July 1st-Aug 31 2006- 135 abs, 41 hits, .303 avg.


You=total fail

1st 100 ABs this year, 4/7/09-6/6/09 = 25 hits, .250 BA, .330 OBP

ode to veeck
07-31-2009, 10:03 AM
I hope we never stop feeding the trolls. They provide a great deal of entertainment. I wonder who the next target of their love will be?

I don't hear much love for Jeremy Reed or Chris Young anymore. Soon BA will sit side by side in the ****box with them.

Seems like it is Josh Fields now for some strange reason

voodoochile
07-31-2009, 10:04 AM
Someone mentioned Anderson being our best fielding CF since Mike Cameron. I agree and think it's a good comparison. Mike had 2 late year callups then 2 full seasons with the club as our CF where he played the position regularly. He hit .210 his last year, never lost the job, was traded for PK after that season.

He's still in MLB, has had a long career playing CF regularly, hitting well enough to keep playing. That might be the future for Anderson.

Hasn't Cameron been busted for PED's twice which is why he managed to develop some power?

wsgdf
07-31-2009, 10:15 AM
It seems pretty much accepted as fact around here that Anderson is superior if not far superior to Wise defensively.

I've always felt that way by the eye test... because he looks so smooth.

I'm having a hard time supporting it with stats though.

Again - I know defensive metrics are generally not accepted, but I haven't found one that rates Anderson over Wise.

A little help?

In fact, in CF Wise comes out quite a bit ahead in UZR (4.5 to 1.8) which along with +/- seems to be the most accepted metric going.

jabrch
07-31-2009, 11:05 AM
Seems like it is Josh Fields now for some strange reason

How silly is that?

I'd have to imagine that these were the same people pounding on Josh for striking out too much.

It blows my mind how much people get attached to prospects to the point where they lose perspective on what these guys actually do at the major league level.

jabrch
07-31-2009, 11:06 AM
It seems pretty much accepted as fact around here that Anderson is superior if not far superior to Wise defensively.

I've always felt that way by the eye test... because he looks so smooth.

I'm having a hard time supporting it with stats though.

Again - I know defensive metrics are generally not accepted, but I haven't found one that rates Anderson over Wise.

A little help?

In fact, in CF Wise comes out quite a bit ahead in UZR (4.5 to 1.8) which along with +/- seems to be the most accepted metric going.

All of this proves how stupid defensive statistics are.

ode to veeck
07-31-2009, 11:44 AM
It seems pretty much accepted as fact around here that Anderson is superior if not far superior to Wise defensively.

I've always felt that way by the eye test... because he looks so smooth.

I'm having a hard time supporting it with stats though.

Again - I know defensive metrics are generally not accepted, but I haven't found one that rates Anderson over Wise.

A little help?

In fact, in CF Wise comes out quite a bit ahead in UZR (4.5 to 1.8) which along with +/- seems to be the most accepted metric going.

the problem is trying to use metrics and not observations

did you ever see a game in the field like Dewayne had with Baltimore not too long ago?

wsgdf
07-31-2009, 12:05 PM
It could also be that Brian gets too much credit for how he looks when he's running down a fly ball.

Maybe there's a reason the Sox have never seemed to hold his defensive prowess in the same high esteem as Sox fans have.

Mike Cameron, by the way, consistently ranks very high in UZR.

ode to veeck
07-31-2009, 01:14 PM
It could also be that Brian gets too much credit for how he looks when he's running down a fly ball.



no that's not it. let's see if the metrics don't show you what is obvious to the binocular optical test (what you see day in day out), then your eyes must be wrong (not!)

the game very often does not boil down to metrics when it comes down to it, especially on defence. by some metrics Royce Clayton was a great SS

voodoochile
07-31-2009, 01:27 PM
no that's not it. let's see if the metrics don't show you what is obvious to the binocular optical test (what you see day in day out), then your eyes must be wrong (not!)

the game very often does not boil down to metrics when it comes down to it, especially on defence. by some metrics Royce Clayton was a great SS

He never matched Valentin's Range Factor or Zone Rating stats. He just committed less errors.

I agree that BA is a better defender than Wise, but it's not as big a margin as some would have us believe, IMO regardless of a few poor games from Wise.

jabrch
07-31-2009, 01:58 PM
by some metrics Royce Clayton was a great SS

By some metrics, Andruw Jones was a poor defensive CF in his prime.

kittle42
07-31-2009, 02:06 PM
I agree that BA is a better defender than Wise, but it's not as big a margin as some would have us believe, IMO regardless of a few poor games from Wise.

The word "elite" comes to mind...

kittle42
07-31-2009, 02:06 PM
You=total fail

Then he has something in common with BA!

bridgeportcopper
07-31-2009, 08:05 PM
Just to keep the FOBAs up to date on how their hero is doing thru 2 games in Pawtucket:

Last 10 Games: (Current team only)
DateOPPAVGABRH2B3BHRRBIBBSOSBCS
Jul 29@BUF.00030000000100
Jul 30@BUF.50041220000100
Totals.28671220000200

spawn
07-31-2009, 08:09 PM
Just to keep the FOBAs up to date on how their hero is doing thru 2 games in Pawtucket:

Last 10 Games: (Current team only)
DateOPPAVGABRH2B3BHRRBIBBSOSBCSJul 29@BUF.00030000000100Jul 30@BUF.50041220000100Totals.28671220000200

:scratch::scratch::scratch:

bridgeportcopper
07-31-2009, 08:41 PM
:scratch::scratch::scratch:

I corrected it....I think.

ode to veeck
07-31-2009, 08:54 PM
Just to keep the FOBAs up to date on how their hero is doing thru 2 games in Pawtucket:

Last 10 Games: (Current team only)
DateOPPAVGABRH2B3BHRRBIBBSOSBCS
Jul 29@BUF.00030000000100
Jul 30@BUF.50041220000100
Totals.28671220000200

still huh?

ode to veeck
07-31-2009, 10:55 PM
back the original thread topic: Mark Kotsay has just been hitting the snot out of the ball, unfortunately, right at folks so far, but he's gonna get some hits the way he's seeing the ball at this rate.

guillensdisciple
07-31-2009, 11:01 PM
Why why why is this thread still alive?