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Bucktown
06-05-2002, 01:23 AM
I firmly believe that this team is going nowehere fast. Attendance should begin to dip below 15K. If I were management I would begin to dump players while they still have value to teams that are trying to contend. Here is my list of dispensables:

1. Frank Thomas - still a great player, but we could get some excellent young talent for the right situation. Also a good chance for Frank to pull some serious cash.

2. Royce Clayton - singlehandedly responsible for two terribly disappointing seasons.

3. Carlos Lee - well thought of in some circles, however I am throughly disappointed this year (and tonight).

4. Sandy Alomar - this guy is on his last legs and I am thorougly p1ssed after watching him end tonight's rally.

5. Todd Ritchie - can't win. It doesn't seem to matter who he is pitching for.

6. Ray Durham - would anyone want him?

Foundation to build upon:

- Paul Keonerko
- Maggs
- Kenny Lofton
- Beuhrle
- Garland
- Danny Wright (I still like his stuff)

FanOf14
06-05-2002, 01:26 AM
Danny Wright is coming along nicely. The best thing is that we've seen him still be able to do well when he doesn't have his best stuff. I am sick of "rebuilding," but you do have a valid point in getting something while they have value before they take off in free agency and we get nothing.

Randar68
06-05-2002, 01:26 AM
Originally posted by Bucktown
I firmly believe that this team is going nowehere fast. Attendance should begin to dip below 15K. If I were management I would begin to dump players while they still have value to teams that are trying to contend. Here is my list of diespensables:

1. Frank Thomas - still a great player, but we could get some excellent young talent gor the right situation. Also a good chance for Frank to pull some serious cash.

2. Royce Clayton - singlehandedly responsible for two terribly disappointing seasons.

3. Carlos Lee - well though of in some circles, however I am throughly disappointed this year (and tonight).

4. Sandy Alomar - this guy is on his last legs and I am thorougly p1ssed after watching him end tonight's rally.

5. Todd Ritchie - can't win. It doesn't seem to matter who he is pitching for.

6. Ray Durham - would anyone want him?

Foundation to build upon:

- Paul Keonerko
- Maggs
- Kenny Lofton
- Beuhrle
- Garland
- Danny Wright (I still like his stuff)


Well, I'll give your Durham, Clayton, Carlos, and I'll add Jose. The rest, you're nuts. Frank is untradeable, and who would want Sandy?

However, I don't think you would call Lofton part of a foundation to build upon...

MarqSox
06-05-2002, 02:17 AM
Originally posted by Bucktown
I firmly believe that this team is going nowehere fast. Attendance should begin to dip below 15K. If I were management I would begin to dump players while they still have value to teams that are trying to contend.

If abandoning the season 3.5 games out of first on July 31 is crazy, then abandoning the season 4 games out of first on June 4 is downright ridiculous.

Not only is it WAY WAY WAY to early to throw in the towel, it also makes no sense to go to rebuilding mode when we don't even know the labor situation. At the very least, no team is going to give us full value for any of our players because who wants to mortgage the future when there might not even be a postseason this year? Granted, you'll get better value now than you will in July if nothing has changed, but you still won't get enough to make it worthwhile. Let's ride out this storm and we'll find ourselves still within striking distance of Minnie.

LongDistanceFan
06-05-2002, 10:17 AM
Originally posted by Randar68



Well, I'll give your Durham, Clayton, Carlos, and I'll add Jose. The rest, you're nuts. Frank is untradeable, and who would want Sandy?

However, I don't think you would call Lofton part of a foundation to build upon... i agree......... frank???????? what is this guy thinking off........ trading frank.......... he deserve the right retire a sox

HawkDJ
06-05-2002, 11:10 AM
Anyone who has even thought of thorwing in the towel already is insane. Sure we haven't played well and 4 games back seems like alot compared to earlier this season but in no way are we out of it. In the long run, 4 games is absolutely nothing compared to how many games are left.

Randar68
06-05-2002, 11:18 AM
Originally posted by HawkDJ2k2
Anyone who has even thought of thorwing in the towel already is insane. Sure we haven't played well and 4 games back seems like alot compared to earlier this season but in no way are we out of it. In the long run, 4 games is absolutely nothing compared to how many games are left.


If you think the trading of any or all of Valentin, Durham, Clayton, or Lee is equivalent to throwing in the towel, you're just as nuts.

Look at their combined numbers. I don't seen any way that the combination of Hummel, LTP, Crede and Harris don't outplay them if they were all replaced tomorrow. They are a combined nearly 20 million of $$$ better used elsewhere, and none of them appear to be in our plans beyond next year! So, with that said, where is the logic in wasting your money for the remainder of the year and getting possibly NOTHING (if draft pick compensation is eliminated in the draft) when you let them walk?!?!?! Even if we don't get "full value", it's better than NOTHING!

KruseControl04
06-05-2002, 11:21 AM
I say we keep Big Frank. He's been a major part of this team for a long time.

HawkDJ
06-05-2002, 11:47 AM
Originally posted by Randar68



If you think the trading of any or all of Valentin, Durham, Clayton, or Lee is equivalent to throwing in the towel, you're just as nuts.


Yeah I would say trading 4 guys for minor leaguers is throwing in teh towel. If we get something usable now that is different. But you don't think trading 1/3 of your lineup and getting nothing back is saying we give up!?

Randar68
06-05-2002, 12:38 PM
Originally posted by HawkDJ2k2


Yeah I would say trading 4 guys for minor leaguers is throwing in teh towel. If we get something usable now that is different. But you don't think trading 1/3 of your lineup and getting nothing back is saying we give up!?

Not when the replacements we already have are equivalent.

You're a window Sox fan. Not concerned with looking at things for their substance, but rather, for how they appear.

WHat in the world has Ray, Jose, Clayton or Lee done to make them invaluable over the last 2 months???? Please share. For an organization worried about the bottom line, letting the 20 million in salary flushed out of the coffers needlessly is like watching a boat sink slowly and doing nothing to help.

Ray and Clayton will not be here after this season, it's a given. Jose probably not after next. Lee, well, Lee doesn;t appear to be in our plans with LTP and our other outfield prospects and adequate replacements.

Please, do the research and show me where this team will be worse off with that 4-4 swap, not including any talent at minimum on the minor league level that would be acquired....

Clarkdog
06-05-2002, 12:43 PM
Throwing in the towel now is nuts.

Lofton is not a foundation player, he is 35.

My concern is not so much with the club we are fielding, but how it is being managed and coached. The bats will come along, but the decision making in close ball games has been poor.

FarmerAndy
06-05-2002, 01:12 PM
I agree with Randar. Getting rid of dead weight like Durham and Lee isn't throwing in the towel. I'd love to see LTP, Crede, and Harris up here now. These guys are the future of this club, and they couldn't play any worse than the stiffs we have out there right now.

I think the real question here is, what are we shooting for?

Can this team possibly win the division? YES

Is this team capable of winning a single playoff game? NO

hold2dibber
06-05-2002, 01:13 PM
Originally posted by Randar68



If you think the trading of any or all of Valentin, Durham, Clayton, or Lee is equivalent to throwing in the towel, you're just as nuts.

Look at their combined numbers. I don't seen any way that the combination of Hummel, LTP, Crede and Harris don't outplay them if they were all replaced tomorrow. They are a combined nearly 20 million of $$$ better used elsewhere, and none of them appear to be in our plans beyond next year! So, with that said, where is the logic in wasting your money for the remainder of the year and getting possibly NOTHING (if draft pick compensation is eliminated in the draft) when you let them walk?!?!?! Even if we don't get "full value", it's better than NOTHING!

I agree, to an extent. I remember in '97, I absolutely agreed with JR's assesment that the team was not going to catch Cleveland. The problem was, however, waiving the white flag wasn't the answer -- bolstering the team with some mid-season acquisitions was the answer. The same may hold true this year. I think it is insane to think that Hummel, LTP Crede and Harris would necessarily outplay Valentin, Clayton, Durham and Lee. Last I hear, Hummel wasn't hitting AAA pitching, and even if he was, there is no way to accurately predict what any degree of confidence what those guys will accomplish in their first extended exposure to the majors -- lots of guys with gaudier minor league stats and better resumes have failed in their first foray in the majors (you need look no further than Sean Burroughs and Hank Blalock this year).

My point? I wouldn't move all of those guys; that would be tantamount to throwing in the towel on this season, whereas some savvy moves could still make us a legit contender. If they could package Durham and Lee for a true #2 starter (Ritchie is a number 3 or 4 starter on a contender), or for a solid #3 starter and a little bullpen help, or could deal one of those guys for a good set up man or a shortstop with a clue, I'd do it because it helps us this year. But at this point, I think it would be ridiculous and insulting to the fans to trade those guys just because they may eventually leave for nothing -- that would be tantamount to giving up on this year, and when you're only 4 games behind, despite not playing even close to your potential, and it's only June 4, giving up would be absurd.

kevingrt
06-05-2002, 01:16 PM
Look at their combined numbers. I don't seen any way that the combination of Hummel, LTP, Crede and Harris don't outplay them if they were all replaced tomorrow. They are a combined nearly 20 million of $$$ better used elsewhere, and none of them appear to be in our plans beyond next year! So, with that said, where is the logic in wasting your money for the remainder of the year and getting possibly NOTHING (if draft pick compensation is eliminated in the draft) when you let them walk?!?!?! Even if we don't get "full value", it's better than NOTHING!

Who would take 20 million dollars of almmost worthless players?

PaleHoseGeorge
06-05-2002, 01:27 PM
Originally posted by kevingrt
Who would take 20 million dollars of almmost worthless players?

That's the real trick, isn't it--finding someone willing to trade something of value for your scraps.

Durham has value, but he is in his contract year and a strike is looming. Other teams could probably pick him up for nothing but the price of his new salary next winter.

Valentin has another year on his contract, but his salary may already be too rich given his production this season. Clayton is facing retirement or the rest of his days on someone's bench. Alomar? He's done.

Well, we can always hope, can't we! :smile:

:lynch&mcfail
"Okay Andy, hear me out on this one..."

raul12
06-05-2002, 01:38 PM
Originally posted by PaleHoseGeorge


That's the real trick, isn't it--finding someone willing to trade something of value for your scraps.



i totally agree. the looming strike year screws up a lot of possibilities in terms of rent-a-players.

i know that at the beginning of the season, the talk was all about adding additional starting pitching. it almost seems as if hitting is a bigger weakness now. even if we just got prospects for these dead heads, at least it'd be something, and most importantly, would free up roster spots for players willing to show up at the game.

we are capable of making the playoffs, but not in the direction we're going. with some young hungry blood on this team, i think we can get there. let the kids play.

Randar68
06-05-2002, 02:08 PM
Originally posted by raul12


i totally agree. the looming strike year screws up a lot of possibilities in terms of rent-a-players.

i know that at the beginning of the season, the talk was all about adding additional starting pitching. it almost seems as if hitting is a bigger weakness now. even if we just got prospects for these dead heads, at least it'd be something, and most importantly, would free up roster spots for players willing to show up at the game.

we are capable of making the playoffs, but not in the direction we're going. with some young hungry blood on this team, i think we can get there. let the kids play.


Amen. In addition, I should have prefaced this by saying..."if I were in charge I would..." Because only Crede and Rauch of the big prospects are likely to see any PT this season. If there is a strike, LTP, Hummel, and Harris would get to play everyday, whereas Jon and Joe are already screwed in that regards...

In my scenario, I wouldn't mind keeping Jose at SS for the rest of this year or even half of next year and leaving Hummel in AAA. His OBP is almost 100 points higher than his BA, and his BA is still higher than Royce's OBP is right now.

These young guys are our future and HAVE THE TALENT to replace the current set of stiffs.

Also, we aren't going to get anything but prospets even if we dealt these guys. Who needs 2B, SS, 3B, LF help an is willing to deal? You guessed it...contenders. Do you think any of them are going to give up MLB quality starters or relievers?

voodoochile
06-05-2002, 02:11 PM
Originally posted by Randar68
Also, we aren't going to get anything but prospets even if we dealt these guys. Who needs 2B, SS, 3B, LF help an is willing to deal? You guessed it...contenders. Do you think any of them are going to give up MLB quality starters or relievers?

"There's the rub"... Any team who would trade for Ray (for example) would not trade top tier pitching, but we might be able to get a top grade AAA SS out of it. Still, that would be a question mark at best...

hold2dibber
06-05-2002, 02:15 PM
Originally posted by Randar68


Also, we aren't going to get anything but prospets even if we dealt these guys. Who needs 2B, SS, 3B, LF help an is willing to deal? You guessed it...contenders. Do you think any of them are going to give up MLB quality starters or relievers?

Well, the Cubs fleeced the Marlins for Alfonseca and Clement for basically nothing. Deals can be made, and contenders with a surplus in one area, or a truly glaring need in another, may be willing to overpay or to give equal value if the deal fits a perceived need. All we need now is a savvy GM who can make it all come together. Uh oh.

Jerry_Manuel
06-05-2002, 10:06 PM
Originally posted by Randar68
Amen. In addition, I should have prefaced this by saying..."if I were in charge I would..."

Who would be the catcher if you were in charge Randar? Bad ass Lee Evans?

Randar68
06-05-2002, 10:50 PM
Originally posted by Jerry_Manuel


Who would be the catcher if you were in charge Randar? Bad ass Lee Evans?

Actually, with what we have now, we have to have MJ platooned with someone. I suppose any veteran is fine. However, Sandy is declining and isn't able to throw anyone out anymore. As such, he should basically only catch Buehrle! Anyways, Evans isn't much for defense and Olivo is at least a year away probably, although I like his ability to draw the walk, even if he can't hit for average...

In short, anyone else but Josh...

Jerry_Manuel
06-05-2002, 11:37 PM
Originally posted by Randar68
Actually, with what we have now, we have to have MJ platooned with someone. I suppose any veteran is fine. However, Sandy is declining and isn't able to throw anyone out anymore. As such, he should basically only catch Buehrle! Anyways, Evans isn't much for defense and Olivo is at least a year away probably, although I like his ability to draw the walk, even if he can't hit for average...

In short, anyone else but Josh...

Haven't we gotten to the point, where the team doesn't need a veteran catcher anymore? For the past few years, I could see the need because they kept bringing up young arms. However, that supply is really running low. The pitchers we have here now can survive with Mark or Olivo behind the plate, right?

Daver
06-05-2002, 11:40 PM
Originally posted by Jerry_Manuel


Haven't we gotten to the point, where the team doesn't need a veteran catcher anymore? For the past few years, I could see the need because they kept bringing up young arms. However, that supply is really running low. The pitchers we have here now can survive with Mark or Olivo behind the plate, right?

I would want a veteran signal caller with the pitching staff the Sox have,but that's just me.

Jerry_Manuel
06-05-2002, 11:42 PM
Originally posted by daver
I would want a veteran signal caller with the pitching staff the Sox have,but that's just me.

I think Mark can step into that roll. The only way he's going to become a 'veteran' is by playing. Besides, doesn't Nossek call the game most of the time?

Tragg
06-05-2002, 11:42 PM
Originally posted by Jerry_Manuel


Haven't we gotten to the point, where the team doesn't need a veteran catcher anymore? For the past few years, I could see the need because they kept bringing up young arms. However, that supply is really running low. The pitchers we have here now can survive with Mark or Olivo behind the plate, right?

If that supply is running low, I'd say our mid-upper farm system is in deep, deep trouble, as we don't have much else (except for borchard and crede).

You guys follow charlotte and the barons closer than I do, so i trust what you are saying. It's suprising to me and sobering.

doublem23
06-05-2002, 11:42 PM
Originally posted by daver


I would want a veteran signal caller with the pitching staff the Sox have,but that's just me.

Ditto.

Jerry_Manuel
06-05-2002, 11:44 PM
Originally posted by Tragg
If that supply is running low, I'd say our mid-upper farm system is in deep, deep trouble, as we don't have much else (except for borchard and crede).

You guys follow charlotte and the barons closer than I do, so i trust what you are saying. It's suprising to me and sobering.

I'm no minor league expert. I leave that sort of thing to Randar and Vic. In terms of pitchers ready to come up here within the next year or so, I think it's low in supply.

Randar68
06-05-2002, 11:47 PM
Originally posted by Jerry_Manuel


I think Mark can step into that roll. The only way he's going to become a 'veteran' is by playing. Besides, doesn't Nossek call the game most of the time?

no, the catchers call everything except pitchouts and pickoffs.

Randar68
06-05-2002, 11:48 PM
Originally posted by Jerry_Manuel


I'm no minor league expert. I leave that sort of thing to Randar and Vic. In terms of pitchers ready to come up here within the next year or so, I think it's low in supply.

well, Rauch, Malone, Almonte, and possibly Valentine are all ETA sometime in 2003 or earlier...(Malone border 2003)

Jerry_Manuel
06-05-2002, 11:59 PM
Originally posted by Randar68
no, the catchers call everything except pitchouts and pickoffs.

I stand corrected.

Originally posted by Randar68
well, Rauch, Malone, Almonte, and possibly Valentine are all ETA sometime in 2003 or earlier...(Malone border 2003)

So your looking at 2 maybe 3 guys coming up in the next 2 years. Contrast that to years past when it was 4 or 5. Thanks for setting the record straight.

Daver
06-06-2002, 12:06 AM
Originally posted by Jerry_Manuel


I stand corrected.



So your looking at 2 maybe 3 guys coming up in the next 2 years. Contrast that to years past when it was 4 or 5. Thanks for setting the record straight.

The last two seasons had a lot of call ups because the team had no other choice,that is not the case now.

LongDistanceFan
06-06-2002, 12:14 AM
Originally posted by hold2dibber


Well, the Cubs fleeced the Marlins for Alfonseca and Clement for basically nothing. Deals can be made, and contenders with a surplus in one area, or a truly glaring need in another, may be willing to overpay or to give equal value if the deal fits a perceived need. All we need now is a savvy GM who can make it all come together. Uh oh.

yeah but you are talking about kw running or should i say ruining the show here.......... kw can't even do a decent trade of any quality...... and i keep remembering the screw up with LA.

does anybody think we can trade royce????? if we couldn't give him away by now, who do you think will come in and asked for his service later........ no-one...... we are stuck with this guy.

lee and ray ....... where are all the backers of these guys when i argued about trading him before........ where is the faith?

trading ray, only if a team can come in and offer something good, any teams, if interested will not give up equal value, or what we perceived as equal.

lee.......... what happen to this guy???????? is he a bust or will he come out of it?????????

Randar68
06-06-2002, 12:17 AM
lee.......... what happen to this guy???????? is he a bust or will he come out of it?????????

Well, I still think he can come out of it, because he sill has loads of talent, but I'm starting wonder if he, too, needs a change of scenery more than anything else...a la Kip...

LongDistanceFan
06-06-2002, 12:20 AM
Originally posted by Randar68


Well, I still think he can come out of it, because he sill has loads of talent, but I'm starting wonder if he, too, needs a change of scenery more than anything else...a la Kip... you may be right about that.........

has kip explain why the turn around now or said anything about his tenure here???????

oops

Daver
06-06-2002, 12:22 AM
Originally posted by LongDistanceFan
you msy be right about that.........

has kip explain why the turn around now or said anything about his tenure here???????

He attributes it to the change in attitude brought on by a new coaching staff that is encouraging him to pitch his game and use his stuff,imagine that.

Randar68
06-06-2002, 12:27 AM
Originally posted by daver


He attributes it to the change in attitude brought on by a new coaching staff that is encouraging him to pitch his game and use his stuff,imagine that.

Maybe their coach doesn't come out to the mound and offer "Just throw F*&*ing strikes, you FU&*ing bastard! What the FU*C ARE YOU DOING" as his words of encouragement....

voodoochile
06-06-2002, 12:30 AM
If the Sox are looking at a veteran signal caller, then let's get them in here ASAP. I would hate to enter a potential pennant race with someone who didn't know our pitchers, especially when the pitchers are as young as they are.

LongDistanceFan
06-06-2002, 12:32 AM
Originally posted by Randar68


Maybe their coach doesn't come out to the mound and offer "Just throw F*&*ing strikes, you FU&*ing bastard! What the FU*C ARE YOU DOING" as his words of encouragement....

ummmm could use a little help on his verbiage(sp)

LongDistanceFan
06-06-2002, 12:34 AM
Originally posted by voodoochile
If the Sox are looking at a veteran signal caller, then let's get them in here ASAP. I would hate to enter a potential pennant race with someone who didn't know our pitchers, especially when the pitchers are as young as they are. why we have sandy here

but you do have a good point........ imagine this, we gave up a first round for this guy.......

Randar68
06-06-2002, 12:37 AM
Originally posted by LongDistanceFan
why we have sandy here

but you do have a good point........ imagine this, we gave up a first round for this guy.......

Don't remind me...at least we were able to get Honel with Florida's pick...

Daver
06-06-2002, 12:39 AM
Originally posted by Randar68


Don't remind me...at least we were able to get Honel with Florida's pick...

And a fine pick it will turn out to be....

LongDistanceFan
06-06-2002, 12:45 AM
Originally posted by daver


And a fine pick it will turn out to be.... i hope you are right about that.......

Randar68
06-06-2002, 12:54 AM
Originally posted by daver


And a fine pick it will turn out to be....

Daver, I don't think you could be more right. I would like nothing better in all by baseball fandom than to see him become an ace some day.

LongDistanceFan
06-06-2002, 12:57 AM
Originally posted by Randar68


Daver, I don't think you could be more right. I would like nothing better in all by baseball fandom than to see him become an ace some day. we could really use some of our pitching prospect to come thru and be an ace.......... a real ace.......... only mark b has done that....... garland show some flashes........ but is it enough to call him a ace????

Daver
06-06-2002, 01:07 AM
Originally posted by LongDistanceFan
we could really use some of our pitching prospect to come thru and be an ace.......... a real ace.......... only mark b has done that....... garland show some flashes........ but is it enough to call him a ace????

LDF,all I can tell you is I have personally seen him strike out 23 batters in a one hit shutout,granted it was a HS game,but he did it with ease and poise that I would not expect out of a college pitcher.

LongDistanceFan
06-06-2002, 01:11 AM
Originally posted by daver


LDF,all I can tell you is I have personally seen him strike out 23 batters in a one hit shutout,granted it was a HS game,but he did it with ease and poise that I would not expect out of a college pitcher.

wow......... excellent.......... i can't wait and i once had real doubt about him when he was first drafted....... my bad. hope he develop as promise..........

Randar68
06-06-2002, 01:12 AM
Originally posted by daver


LDF,all I can tell you is I have personally seen him strike out 23 batters in a one hit shutout,granted it was a HS game,but he did it with ease and poise that I would not expect out of a college pitcher.

On top of that, so far in he major league career, he's had about a 4:1 K:BB ratio. Unreal for someone right out of HS. He was named to the South Antlantic League All-Star team recently as well...

LongDistanceFan
06-06-2002, 01:13 AM
Originally posted by Randar68


On top of that, so far in he major league career, he's had about a 4:1 K:BB ratio. Unreal for someone right out of HS. He was named to the South Antlantic League All-Star team recently as well... didn't he have his fastball clocked somewhere in the mid 90's?

Randar68
06-06-2002, 01:15 AM
Originally posted by LongDistanceFan
didn't he have his fastball clocked somewhere in the mid 90's?

When he's healthy, I think he tops out at around 94 now. However, this kid is about 6'5" or 6'6" and is probably 180 pounds soaking wet....

LongDistanceFan
06-06-2002, 01:17 AM
Originally posted by Randar68


When he's healthy, I think he tops out at around 94 now. However, this kid is about 6'5" or 6'6" and is probably 180 pounds soaking wet.... so he could use meat on his frame..............

Daver
06-06-2002, 01:17 AM
Originally posted by Randar68


When he's healthy, I think he tops out at around 94 now. However, this kid is about 6'5" or 6'6" and is probably 180 pounds soaking wet....

He will never make his money on his fastball anyway....

LongDistanceFan
06-06-2002, 01:18 AM
Originally posted by daver


He will never make his money on his fastball anyway.... then what is his "out" pitch

in 5 mins i am otta of here........ see ya

Daver
06-06-2002, 01:19 AM
Originally posted by LongDistanceFan
then what is his "out" pitch

He throws a killer knuckle curve.

LongDistanceFan
06-06-2002, 01:20 AM
Originally posted by daver


He throws a killer knuckle curve. a knuckler........... haven't seen one in a while........... hey i will pick this up morrow.... nite

Nellie_Fox
06-06-2002, 02:33 AM
Originally posted by daver
He throws a killer knuckle curve.

Originally posted by LongDistanceFan
a knuckler........... haven't seen one in a while........... hey i will pick this up morrow.... nite A knuckler (knuckle ball) and a knuckle curve are very different animals. The knuckler is thrown with no spin, letting the air currents act on the seams as they will. A knuckle curve is thrown with a lot of top spin imparted, causing a sharp downward break without the strain on the elbow a regular curve causes.

soxtalker
06-06-2002, 02:46 AM
One other factor that could be important in any potential trades is that of injuries. Take the fellow that almost everyone is willing to see traded, Royce Clayton. He might look reasonably attractive to a team in contention -- or better yet, running away with a playoff spot -- that has a great SS that suddenly becomes injured. Would they give up a top pitcher? No. But they might be willing to part with some good minor league talent. Now, this is all predicated on such an injury happening. There are almost always injuries with resulting trades like this. Will it be one that we can take advantage of -- maybe.

Being able to pull off such a trade is another matter. If Scheuler was still the GM, we could probably have reasonable hope that he could pull off such a deal. Unfortunately, I see little evidence that KW could do so at this time. Maybe after he has a couple of more years under his belt, but not now.

I think that one or two of the infielders are the most likely to be traded, since Crede is obviously ready and has no protection should a strike occur. Those that can stay in the minor leagues during a strike won't be brought up until it is absolutely certain that the labor situation is resolved. I suppose that Carlos Lee could be traded, but they won't bring up Borchard.

voodoochile
06-06-2002, 08:46 AM
Originally posted by soxtalker
One other factor that could be important in any potential trades is that of injuries. Take the fellow that almost everyone is willing to see traded, Royce Clayton. He might look reasonably attractive to a team in contention -- or better yet, running away with a playoff spot -- that has a great SS that suddenly becomes injured. Would they give up a top pitcher? No. But they might be willing to part with some good minor league talent. Now, this is all predicated on such an injury happening. There are almost always injuries with resulting trades like this. Will it be one that we can take advantage of -- maybe.

Being able to pull off such a trade is another matter. If Scheuler was still the GM, we could probably have reasonable hope that he could pull off such a deal. Unfortunately, I see little evidence that KW could do so at this time. Maybe after he has a couple of more years under his belt, but not now.

I think that one or two of the infielders are the most likely to be traded, since Crede is obviously ready and has no protection should a strike occur. Those that can stay in the minor leagues during a strike won't be brought up until it is absolutely certain that the labor situation is resolved. I suppose that Carlos Lee could be traded, but they won't bring up Borchard.

It would be lovely to dream that a team in contention would trade for Royce, but it isn't going to happen. Teams trade for hitting and pitching when in a playoff hunt. Royce offers neither. Add in his propensity to bitch to the press whenever he isn't playing and he is NOT exactly a great clubhouse presence with veteran leadership and playoff experience. Royce is staying in Chicago until the end of his contract/career (same thing)...

Spiff
06-06-2002, 08:50 AM
Originally posted by voodoochile


It would be lovely to dream that a team in contention would trade for Royce, but it isn't going to happen. Teams trade for hitting and pitching when in a playoff hunt. Royce offers neither. Add in his propensity to bitch to the press whenever he isn't playing and he is NOT exactly a great clubhouse presence with veteran leadership and playoff experience. Royce is staying in Chicago until the end of his contract/career (same thing)...

After Furcal went down last year, the Braves traded for Rey Sanchez. He's not exactly a powerhouse.

voodoochile
06-06-2002, 08:54 AM
Originally posted by Spiff


After Furcal went down last year, the Braves traded for Rey Sanchez. He's not exactly a powerhouse.

Is Rey a whiner?

Hey, maybe it will happen, one can only hope...

raul12
06-06-2002, 09:23 AM
Originally posted by voodoochile


It would be lovely to dream that a team in contention would trade for Royce, but it isn't going to happen. Teams trade for hitting and pitching when in a playoff hunt. Royce offers neither. Add in his propensity to bitch to the press whenever he isn't playing and he is NOT exactly a great clubhouse presence with veteran leadership and playoff experience. Royce is staying in Chicago until the end of his contract/career (same thing)...

a while ago, i posed the same question going thru these threads--why would a contender trade a top tier pitcher for our players (even if they were doing well). someone, i forget who, responded that three-way trades are always a possibility. so we could theoretically send players to a playoff contender, who would send prospects to some scrub team, who would send us a pitcher. i doubt if that would work though, seeing as how stellar our positional players are playing....which is the reason this thread exists in the first place.

hold2dibber
06-06-2002, 10:22 AM
Originally posted by Randar68


Well, I still think he can come out of it, because he sill has loads of talent, but I'm starting wonder if he, too, needs a change of scenery more than anything else...a la Kip...

I think Charlotte is the change of scenary he needs.

LongDistanceFan
06-06-2002, 11:19 AM
Originally posted by Nellie_Fox


A knuckler (knuckle ball) and a knuckle curve are very different animals. The knuckler is thrown with no spin, letting the air currents act on the seams as they will. A knuckle curve is thrown with a lot of top spin imparted, causing a sharp downward break without the strain on the elbow a regular curve causes. that i didn't know......... thanks

soxtalker
06-06-2002, 01:03 PM
It would be lovely to dream that a team in contention would trade for Royce, but it isn't going to happen. Teams trade for hitting and pitching when in a playoff hunt. Royce offers neither. Add in his propensity to bitch to the press whenever he isn't playing and he is NOT exactly a great clubhouse presence with veteran leadership and playoff experience. Royce is staying in Chicago until the end of his contract/career (same thing)...

I posted my comment about injuries on other teams providing trade opportunities late last night. I just read it over, and I realize that I probably came across a bit more optimistic than I really feel. Let me try again.

I do think that opportunities will come along later in the season where teams that know they are going to make the playoffs will want to fill in players to either rest older (or mildly-hurt) players or those that are out a few weeks due to injury. Clayton, Durham, and Valentine all could fill such a role. Is it overly optimistic to think that such an opportunity will present itself? Maybe a bit, but that is beyond our control. Finding and taking advantage of such a situation depends on KW, and that is where I really have concerns.

Do I think that we would get a lot for Royce (or, quite frankly, Valentine or Durham at this point)? No. If Scheuler were here, he'd probably get one or two players in the low minors that would be promising. Again, I don't have much confidence in KW.

In summary, I do think that there will be opportunities for us to trade one or more of those infielders (we can also talk about Lee) and get value for the future in return. But I'm not trying to be pollyannaish here. Make no mistake, this will take a lot of hard work and good judgement on the part of the organization -- in particular, KW.

LongDistanceFan
06-06-2002, 02:35 PM
Originally posted by soxtalker


. ref your post last night........ don't sweat it........ it added an element for further discussion........... everybody screws up here on posting......... esp me......... :D:

esp that you are new to this........ have fun.