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View Full Version : Is Mark Buehrle the best pitcher you've ever seen pitch for the Sox?


chisoxfanatic
07-23-2009, 04:57 PM
I'm thinking he is. I guess I'm a relatively young Sox fan in comparison to a bunch of you here (I'm 27), so I haven't seen those pitchers from the 70s and earlier. As far as what I have seen as a fan, he's accomplished even more than guys like Wilson Alvarez and Black Jack McDowell.

No Hitter
Perfect Game
ALCS Complete Game
World Series Victory
World Series Save
World Series Champion
Home Run
All Star a few times

Rockabilly
07-23-2009, 04:58 PM
He's the best pitcher in Sox history..

SOXfnNlansing
07-23-2009, 04:58 PM
Blackjack

Rohan
07-23-2009, 04:59 PM
Well i've only lived for 20 years. But i'd certainly have to say he's the best pitcher i've ever seen play for the White Sox in my life.

ode to veeck
07-23-2009, 04:59 PM
He's the best pitcher in Sox history..

He's certainly making a case for it.

BleacherBandit
07-23-2009, 05:00 PM
In my life--yes. But I've only been here for 22 years.

BigP50
07-23-2009, 05:01 PM
yes for me since ive only been alive since '92.

but he has a no hitter, perfect game, Home run, World series win, world series save, 11-3 this year. MERCY!

mrfourni
07-23-2009, 05:02 PM
He's definately my favorite

ChicagoHoosier
07-23-2009, 05:04 PM
For a career, I think Buehrle definitely.

For a season or two... Blackjack was pretty darn good. Probably better than any one season of Mark's.

So, yes, Mark is the best Sox pitcher I've ever seen.

october23sp
07-23-2009, 05:05 PM
I'm 17, so easy yes.

ode to veeck
07-23-2009, 05:06 PM
Blackjack

Burly-mon's already ahead of him on Ws and with a slightly better ERA.

Then let's talk about Burly D too, good move to 1st and as good a fielding pitcher as there is.

SephClone89
07-23-2009, 05:07 PM
I'm 19, and started following baseball in '98, when I was nine years old. Yes, Buehrle is the best.

Eddo144
07-23-2009, 05:07 PM
Blackjack
Nah. McDowell only pitched six full seasons for the Sox (Buehrle's in the middle of his ninth), and only started 24 games for any team after his age 30 season. He had a couple really good years, but Buehrle is better.

I voted yes. He's probably the best Sox pitcher (if you only count his days with the Sox, which rightfully excludes all-time greats like Carlton and Seaver) since Billy Pierce.

WhiteSox5187
07-23-2009, 05:08 PM
In my life--yes. But I've only been here for 22 years.

I've been here the same time and I think that Blackjack may have had a couple of better years, but consistently Buerhle has been the best in my lifetime. Billy Pierce might have been better, but I never saw him pitch. Then there are guys like Ted Lyons and Ed Walsh who I don't think anyone here has seen pitch, but should be in the conversation.

thomas35forever
07-23-2009, 05:09 PM
I'm only 20 years old, so Buehrle is the obvious choice for me. Even if he never gets in the Hall, he will definitely have his number retired in the club and have a statue on the concourse. I will be proud to say I watch him pitch.

chisoxfanatic
07-23-2009, 05:10 PM
I'm only 20 years old, so Buehrle is the obvious choice for me. Even if he never gets in the Hall, he will definitely have his number retired in the club and have a statue on the concourse. I will be proud to say I watch him pitch.
And I will definitely make sure I buy tickets for that game.

sox1970
07-23-2009, 05:11 PM
As far as a career, yes. For a five year period? McDowell was better.

SOXPHILE
07-23-2009, 05:12 PM
Now, I'd have to say yes. And I've been watching the Sox since the late 70's when I was just a wee Soxphile, remembering all the guys like Wilbur Wood, Britt Burns, Rich Dotson, and later, McDowell. As others have said, he's had 2 no-no's (1 of them a perfect game), a world series win, a world series save, (a world series ring), and has been an All-Star multiple times.

LITTLE NELL
07-23-2009, 05:13 PM
Even though he did'nt pitch any no hitters(came close) I'll still have to go with Billy Pierce with Mark tied with Wilbur Wood for 2nd with Peters and Horlen a close 3rd. If MB stays with Sox he will take over the number 1 spot of pitchers I've seen.
When his career comes to an end it will look like this:
Lyons
Faber
Walsh
MB (might take over Walsh for 3rd)
Pierce.

doublem23
07-23-2009, 05:13 PM
He's the best pitcher in Sox history..

Since the Liveball Era, maybe definitely today (you can still make a great case for Billy Pierce, though). But before 1920, the Sox had some fantastic pitchers, a couple that are legitimate candidates for the best pitcher... Ever.

The only guy I've ever seen who enters Buehrle's stratosphere is Blackjack, but as has already been pointed out, fizzled out too fast (:whiner:). Though, if you take them at their absolute peaks, you might prefer McDowell to Buehrle. Not a bad decision to have to make, though. :cool:

BigP50
07-23-2009, 05:14 PM
I can't stop looking at my Burls signed baseball

Lip Man 1
07-23-2009, 05:15 PM
With all due respect to Mark, the answer is Billy Pierce.

Lip

WhiteSox5187
07-23-2009, 05:17 PM
With all due respect to Mark, the answer is Billy Pierce.

Lip

I still think Ted Lyons is the best pitcher all time for the Sox.

SoxFan1979
07-23-2009, 05:19 PM
Blackjack was my main man growing up but Buehrle is the best I've seen in a Sox uniform.

doublem23
07-23-2009, 05:19 PM
With all due respect to Mark, the answer is Billy Pierce.

Lip

With all due respect to Billy Pierce, he pitched a much more pitcher-friendly park and in a much less offensive era of baseball.

Raw stats seem to give the edge to Pierce, but if you compare what the two did reflected against their peers, Mark's accomplishments are arguably better. Oh, and Billy Pierce never won a World Series, or throw a no-hitter, or throw a perfect game. Maybe I'm being emotional, but hey, baseball is still an emotional game at heart right?

doublem23
07-23-2009, 05:21 PM
I still think Ted Lyons is the best pitcher all time for the Sox.

Is that a joke? Even though his career ended in 1917, there's no question Ed Walsh is the best pitcher in Sox history.

http://www.baseball-reference.com/players/w/walshed01.shtml

Hitmen77
07-23-2009, 05:22 PM
With all due respect to Mark, the answer is Billy Pierce.

Lip

I still think Ted Lyons is the best pitcher all time for the Sox.

For most people here (including me), neither of those guys qualify for the answer to the question because most have never "seen them pitch for the Sox" (we weren't even born yet when those guys pitched)

Domeshot17
07-23-2009, 05:22 PM
I'm thinking he is. I guess I'm a relatively young Sox fan in comparison to a bunch of you here (I'm 27), so I haven't seen those pitchers from the 70s and earlier. As far as what I have seen as a fan, he's accomplished even more than guys like Wilson Alvarez and Black Jack McDowell.

No Hitter
Perfect Game
ALCS Complete Game
World Series Victory
World Series Save
World Series Champion
Home Run
All Star a few times

He does not have a world series victory. The winning pitchers were Jose-Cotts-Marte-Freddy.

In my lifetime, yes, probably. In terms of Individual seasons no, and over the history of the White Sox he is still off. But hes been one of few long time sox pitchers, so we will see.

soxfan26
07-23-2009, 05:23 PM
At 33 years old the answer is a resounding...

YES!!!

Lip Man 1
07-23-2009, 05:28 PM
Double:

He also pitched in an era before expansion when even garbage teams like K.C. and Washington had players the caliber of Roger Maris, Harmon Killebrew and Bob Allison on it.

I was afraid it was going to come down to this:

* Won 186 games with the White Sox from 1949 - 1961 (211 overall)
* Had 11 years of double digit wins (12 overall)
* Twenty game winner in 1956 and 57
* Threw 35 shutouts (38 overall)
* Had 19 saves (38 overall)
* Led the American League in complete games in 1956, 57 and 58 (Had 193 in his career)
* Led American League in ERA in 1955 (1.97: for his career his ERA was 3.27)
* Led American League in strikeouts in 1953 (186: had 1,999 in his career)
* Threw four one hitters, including losing a perfect game with two outs in the 9th inning (1958)
* 7 time All Star and the only Sox pitcher to ever start three All Star Games (1953, 55, 56)
* "Sports Illustrated" cover boy in 1957
* "Sport" Magazine cover boy for October 1957

This isn't knocking Mark by any means, he's a great pitcher, can pitch on my team anyday of the week but if my life depended on one game Billy Pierce would get the baseball.

They are both exceptional left handers. I'm a little older than you (maybe a lot older) and have been fortunate to see a greater number of pitchers, the original question was "that you personally saw..." some of the others may be right, it could have been Lyons, Walsh, Faber etc but there's no way to judge.

Lip

rdwj
07-23-2009, 05:29 PM
I think he's the best I've seen in a Sox uniform.

Buehrle now has a PG and NH and some impressive playoff and WS games. How close is he to being in the HOF?

spawn
07-23-2009, 05:30 PM
He's the best I've seen in a Sox uniform.

Boondock Saint
07-23-2009, 05:34 PM
I think he's the best I've seen in a Sox uniform.

Buehrle now has a PG and NH and some impressive playoff and WS games. How close is he to being in the HOF?

I'm just guessing here, but I'd imagine he'd have to hit at least 200 wins before he even gets considered.

Domeshot17
07-23-2009, 05:34 PM
I think he's the best I've seen in a Sox uniform.

Buehrle now has a PG and NH and some impressive playoff and WS games. How close is he to being in the HOF?

132-90 3.78 era 1.26 whip.

The Hall of Fame mark for a starting pitcher is GENERALLY 300 wins, unless they have the honors. He has a the good games, but I would say unless he pitches until hes 42 and wins 300 (which he has said he will not) or if he rips off 2-3 Cy Youngs before he does retire, he will not garner much hall consideration.

Hitmen77
07-23-2009, 05:40 PM
No way to the HOF if his career ended today.

I do have to think though that Mark Buehrle is getting to the point where he'll eventually get his number retired when his days with the Sox are over.

Bob G
07-23-2009, 05:44 PM
Buehrle is the type of pitcher who can pitch for a long time if he wants to.

As far as the best pitcher I ever saw. For me this goes back to the days of Horlen and Peters and Wood would be among the best but I would put MB at #1.

ChicagoHoosier
07-23-2009, 05:47 PM
But this is a wonderful debate, isn't it? It's SO difficult to compare players from different ERAs, from Walsh to Pierce, Lyons, to modern day pitchers. I love it.

I realized I answered the question for whether he's the best I've seen since I've been a baseball fan. I have to qualify my answer since I've only been watching baseball for about 32 years.

Boy, Walsh's stats are AMAZING.

fram40
07-23-2009, 05:51 PM
As far as the best pitcher I ever saw. For me this goes back to the days of Horlen and Peters and Wood would be among the best but I would put MB at #1.

I don't remember Horlen and Peters, but I remember Wilber Wood and all Sox pitchers since 1970. MB is definitely the best Sox pitcher of my lifetime.

But I would vote for Big Ed Walsh for best Sox pitcher of all-time

gobears1987
07-23-2009, 05:56 PM
With all due respect to Billy Pierce, he pitched a much more pitcher-friendly park and in a much less offensive era of baseball.

Raw stats seem to give the edge to Pierce, but if you compare what the two did reflected against their peers, Mark's accomplishments are arguably better. Oh, and Billy Pierce never won a World Series, or throw a no-hitter, or throw a perfect game. Maybe I'm being emotional, but hey, baseball is still an emotional game at heart right?
To be fair to Pierce, he did once have 26 up and 26 down only to lose the perfect game to the 27th batter.

gobears1987
07-23-2009, 05:57 PM
He does not have a world series victory. The winning pitchers were Jose-Cotts-Marte-Freddy.

In my lifetime, yes, probably. In terms of Individual seasons no, and over the history of the White Sox he is still off. But hes been one of few long time sox pitchers, so we will see.
He was in line for the victory in Game 2, but he didn't get it. If Pods makes the throw, Buehrle gets the W. Pods did redeem himself though.

Noneck
07-23-2009, 05:59 PM
Since the question is the best Sox pitcher you have ever seen the only choice for most here would be Buehrle or McDowell. But since I am geezer, its Pierce and then Woody.

TornLabrum
07-23-2009, 06:28 PM
Best in my lifetime was Pierce. Buehrle or McDowell is #2. Best ver: Probably Walsh or Lyons.

RCWHITESOX
07-23-2009, 06:32 PM
With all due respect to Mark, the answer is Billy Pierce.

Lip

I'm with you. Also Joel Horlen and Gary Peters would have to be included.

Railsplitter
07-23-2009, 06:33 PM
Being born after Faber, Lyons, and Pierce were gone, and too young to remember Peters and Horlen, I have to say yes about Buehrle be the Best I have seen, ahead of Wood and McDowell.

Carolina Kenny
07-23-2009, 06:45 PM
Is that a joke? Even though his career ended in 1917, there's no question Ed Walsh is the best pitcher in Sox history.

http://www.baseball-reference.com/players/w/walshed01.shtml

I think the premise of the question is incorrect. Baseball is divided by different era's over it's 100 plus years.

Big Ed Walsh dominates the record books standing like a giant in Sox history. Mark is the team pitcher of great Sox pitchers. One can imagine him being able to be great in any era.

Carolina Kenny
07-23-2009, 06:47 PM
I'm with you. Also Joel Horlen and Gary Peters would have to be included.

With today's modern training and care, Peters and Horlen would be HOF pitchers.

HomeFish
07-23-2009, 06:49 PM
2003 Esteban Loaiza was pretty damn good. But only lasted for one year.

RockyMtnSoxFan
07-23-2009, 06:53 PM
Definitely Buehrle for me (Sox fan since 93). By the way, here's a nice article (http://myespn.go.com/blogs/sweetspot/0-4-96/Buehrle-reminds-us--again--that-he-s-good.html) from Rob Neyer, mentioning how good Buehrle has been in this decade.

As for Pierce and Walsh, their numbers do look very good, but you can't really compare the raw statistics. I am somewhat skeptical of park adjusted numbers, but I think you need something like ERA+ in order to compare. For what it's worth, Walsh had a 146, Pierce a 119, and Buehrle has a 123. Also, Buehrle and Pierce have nearly identical WHIP, despite the difference in the hitting environments.

ShoelessJoeS
07-23-2009, 06:55 PM
Without a doubt!

sullythered
07-23-2009, 06:55 PM
Buehrle is the best in my lifetime (i'm 29) and for sure the most accomplished of all time.

LITTLE NELL
07-23-2009, 07:02 PM
With today's modern training and care, Peters and Horlen would be HOF pitchers.
Horlen was the all time hard luck pitcher, lifetime 113-113 with 3.11 ERA. With run support and a little luck he could have been 133-93.

EastCoastSoxFan
07-23-2009, 07:28 PM
Somebody check me, but isn't this the fourth time Buehrle has faced the minimum in a game?
In addition to the other no-hitter I seem to recall a one-hitter (possibly also against TB) and a two-hitter (against Cleveland) in which he also faced the minimum (due to baserunners being erased on DP's).
If so that's gotta be at least close to some kind of record...

gosox55
07-23-2009, 07:40 PM
Best I saw, Billy Pierce. But that is colored by youthful hero worship.
Mark is the 2d best I've seen and a heck of a pitcher.

Ed Walsh, by record, overall would be the best.

PKalltheway
07-23-2009, 07:46 PM
He's the best I've ever seen.

Eddo144
07-23-2009, 07:46 PM
Somebody check me, but isn't this the fourth time Buehrle has faced the minimum in a game?
In addition to the other no-hitter I seem to recall a one-hitter (possibly also against TB) and a two-hitter (against Cleveland) in which he also faced the minimum (due to baserunners being erased on DP's).
If so that's gotta be at least close to some kind of record...
It's his third time, which I'm guessing is a record. The "other" Tampa game you remember is notable; I used to remember that as being the minimum as well (I was there), but after his no hitter in 2007, I went back and found the game, and my memory was wrong.

Additionally, baseball-reference's blog notes (http://www.baseball-reference.com/blog/archives/2006) that Sandy Koufax is the only other player to throw two no hitters in which he faced only 27 batters.

EDIT: Buehrle actually faced 28 batters (http://www.baseball-reference.com/boxes/CHA/CHA200108030.shtml) in that game against Tampa.

Paulwny
07-23-2009, 07:56 PM
Best I saw, Billy Pierce. But that is colored by youthful hero worship.
Mark is the 2d best I've seen and a heck of a pitcher.

Ed Walsh, by record, overall would be the best.

I'm in your boat.

chisoxfanatic
07-23-2009, 07:57 PM
I don't think I've ever seen a non-rigged WSI poll more lopsided!

kevingrt
07-23-2009, 08:04 PM
Well considering I was born in '87 and the only other guy it could be was Black Jack I'm going to go with Buehrle. I mean it's certainly not Parque.

WhiteSoxFan84
07-23-2009, 08:15 PM
Yes! Hell yes!

kevingrt
07-23-2009, 08:18 PM
By the way if he retires anytime soon I might crap my pants.

Frater Perdurabo
07-23-2009, 08:25 PM
With all apologies to Jack McDowell (and Tom Seaver and Steve Carlton, who obviously were past there prime when with the Sox), Buehrle definitely is the best to pitch for the Sox in my lifetime.

Red Barchetta
07-23-2009, 08:58 PM
What amazes me is that he came one walk (Sosa) away from doing this two times in 3 seasons! :o:

mccoydp
07-23-2009, 09:21 PM
Mark edges Blackjack in my personal standings. I've only been watching the Sox since the 1991 season, though, so I can't dig back into history like some of you.

A. Cavatica
07-23-2009, 09:57 PM
Tom Seaver, but of course his best days were elsewhere.

Bobby Thigpen
07-23-2009, 11:06 PM
Is Buehrle the best I've seen pitch while he's in a Sox uniform? Yes.

But Seaver was a much better pitcher who did pitch for the Sox.

So it depends on how you want to phrase the question.

doublem23
07-24-2009, 02:26 AM
Double:

He also pitched in an era before expansion when even garbage teams like K.C. and Washington had players the caliber of Roger Maris, Harmon Killebrew and Bob Allison on it.

I was afraid it was going to come down to this:

* Won 186 games with the White Sox from 1949 - 1961 (211 overall)
* Had 11 years of double digit wins (12 overall)
* Twenty game winner in 1956 and 57
* Threw 35 shutouts (38 overall)
* Had 19 saves (38 overall)
* Led the American League in complete games in 1956, 57 and 58 (Had 193 in his career)
* Led American League in ERA in 1955 (1.97: for his career his ERA was 3.27)
* Led American League in strikeouts in 1953 (186: had 1,999 in his career)
* Threw four one hitters, including losing a perfect game with two outs in the 9th inning (1958)
* 7 time All Star and the only Sox pitcher to ever start three All Star Games (1953, 55, 56)
* "Sports Illustrated" cover boy in 1957
* "Sport" Magazine cover boy for October 1957

This isn't knocking Mark by any means, he's a great pitcher, can pitch on my team anyday of the week but if my life depended on one game Billy Pierce would get the baseball.

They are both exceptional left handers. I'm a little older than you (maybe a lot older) and have been fortunate to see a greater number of pitchers, the original question was "that you personally saw..." some of the others may be right, it could have been Lyons, Walsh, Faber etc but there's no way to judge.

Lip

This may all be true, but there's no denying there is a different culture of offense in today's game. In 1955, arguably Pierce's best season, the average line across the American League was .258/.336/.381. This year thus far, the American League's average line is .264/.335/.426, and while expansion may have diluted the talent field, it has also increased travel for players. During his career with the Sox, Billy Pierce never had to travel west of Kansas City.

I'm not trying to diss Billy Pierce, the White Sox have a great tradition of pitching excellence, so saying he's the 2nd best pitcher in franchise history since the Liveball Era began is nothing short of praise.

But Mark Buehrle is better.

Chrisaway
07-24-2009, 04:24 AM
I gotta go with Black jack but its a close one.

ode to veeck
07-24-2009, 04:54 AM
Is Buehrle the best I've seen pitch while he's in a Sox uniform? Yes.

But Seaver was a much better pitcher who did pitch for the Sox.

So it depends on how you want to phrase the question.

'cept for Jimmy Qualls, the reserve bench Cubs player who broke up Seaver's perfection bid

decolores9628
07-24-2009, 05:31 AM
I'm only 20 (21 in 9 days!) and before today Parque was definitely the best pitcher in White Sox History.


Haha, all kidding aside, MB is the best Sox pitcher I've ever seen. I started crying in the middle of class when I found out he threw the perfecto. If I didn't have summer school, I would have been there, but I'm glad my dad was.

I called him after my class was over and he sounded like a little kid. It was amazing.

CONGRATS MARK!!!

TomBradley72
07-24-2009, 08:09 AM
I've been a fan since 1971, I ran the historical stats for the White Sox for all pitchers from 1971...it comes down to Wilbur Wood vs. Mark Buehrle.

Wood (1971-forward): 127-110, 3.35 ERA, 276 GS, 113 CG, 24 SHO, 1.23 WHIP
Buehrle (to date): 122-87, 3.80 ERA, 268 GS, 23 CG, 7 SHO, 1.27 WHIP

TornLabrum
07-24-2009, 08:12 AM
This may all be true, but there's no denying there is a different culture of offense in today's game. In 1955, arguably Pierce's best season, the average line across the American League was .258/.336/.381. This year thus far, the American League's average line is .264/.335/.426, and while expansion may have diluted the talent field, it has also increased travel for players. During his career with the Sox, Billy Pierce never had to travel west of Kansas City.

I'm not trying to diss Billy Pierce, the White Sox have a great tradition of pitching excellence, so saying he's the 2nd best pitcher in franchise history since the Liveball Era began is nothing short of praise.

But Mark Buehrle is better.

And you saw Pierce pitch when?

TommyJohn
07-24-2009, 08:28 AM
My lifetime began in 1968, so I will go with Wilbur Wood. He was an elite closer who became an elite starter-four straight 20 win seasons, iron man innings eater, rubber arm. Who knows how many more years he would have kept going if not for Ron LeFlore's line shot? That pretty much finished him.

Best Sox pitcher of all-time? I'd go with Ed Walsh, with Billy Pierce the best left-hander. But Buehrle is up there.

SI1020
07-24-2009, 10:07 AM
It's always hard to compare players from different eras. IMHO you can only judge a player on what they did while they had the opportunity to play. Billy Pierce's performance in 1955 in light of the inferior hitting stats of that year compared to this year, was mentioned earlier. Pierce also had a 201 ERA+ that year and lost 4 1-0 games. Except for a brief spell in 1956, Pierce usually scuffled for run support. I still rank him as the best Sox pitcher I ever saw. When he was on, which was more often than not, he brought a kind of electric excitement on the mound. I thought that Gary Peters was on his way to eclipsing Pierce in the 60s, but he tailed off somewhat after the 67 season. No one wants to be seen as a stubborn old coot, and I'm just as big a Sox fan as I was when I was a little kid. After yesterday, I still feel like a little kid. The book is not closed yet on Mark Buehrle. Pierce is still number 1 in my book but Mark is closing fast, and that is just fine with this Sox old timer.

JNS
07-24-2009, 10:33 AM
He sure is now! I was lucky enough to be out there yesterday and am still buzzing. I couldn't sleep!

I saw my first game when I was 5. Early Wynn vs. Whitey Ford. I saw Peters, Pizarro, Horlen, Wilhelm, Kaat, many times as a kid. Of course later there was Gossage, Wood, Stone, Seaver, McDowell, Fernandez, Alverez, Hoyt, and other fine hurlers.

But Mark is the man. His record over his tenure here (and in MLB, as they coincide) has been outstanding in every way. His character is unimpeachable. He's been a 100% stand-up guy. What makes it even better is that he's a BRAINY pitcher. He uses his smarts to get guys out - not an overpowering fastball. I find that especially cool!

I am old enough to know people - kids who were a little older than me - who had great adventures seeking autographs. One was spit on by Mickey Mantle (drunk do doubt). Another had Ted Williams throw his autograph book acroos the street ("you want an autograph? Here's your ****ing autograph you punk!") My kid has met Mark twice and he's been as decent and nice as you can imagine.

So Mark Buehrle is without question the best Sox pitcher I have ever seen. It couldn't have happened to a more deserving guy.

As a side note, it's nice for Wise - he's a career minor leaguer who is getting his cup of coffee in the bigs as a P/T player and he gets to share in the glory - good for him! And he was nice to my kid too!

RedPinStripes
07-24-2009, 10:39 AM
I gotta go with Mark. I've never seen a Sox pitch this consistent and durable for so long and accomplish all he has. Between the perfect game, WS ring, Save in the WS , and having 2 no-hitters, I can't even say Black Jack is close.

Can we say........STATUE! :bandance:

soxfanreggie
07-24-2009, 11:39 AM
I watched Wilson Alvarez thinking he was the next big thing, I saw Blackjack win the Cy, Thigpen save 50, but nobody can compare to the memories Burls has given me. There are two autographs on my desk at work. #35 and #56, and it will probably stay like that for a while.

Lip Man 1
07-24-2009, 01:43 PM
Thinking more about this today. I've already stated the reasons why Billy Pierce is the best I've seen but here's how I'd rank the rest of the top five:

2. Mark Buehrle - If he pitches another ten years for the Sox and wins 250 games or so, of course, his slot would have to change...but he's not there yet.

3. Wilbur Wood - Record setting relief pitcher before he became a record setting starting pitcher. Four time 20 game winner, three time All Star. NO ONE will ever throw the amount of innings he threw in a season or over a four year period again.

4. Jack McDowell - I've never had more confidence in any Sox pitcher on game day than him. Talent, guts, hated to lose. Would kick his teammates in the ass if needed. Two time 20 game winner, three time All Star, won more games in the A.L. from 1990 through 1994 than anybody (second in baseball to Greg Maddux.)

5. Gary Peters - Smooth throwing left hander. Deceptively fast, broke bats. Had big strikeout games. Co Rookie of the Year in 1963. 19 game winner in 63. 20 game winner in 64. Two time All Star.

These five also have to be in the discussion (in no particular order...) Early Wynn, Joe Horlen, Tommy John, Juan Pizarro and Alex Fernandez.

Lip

Smokey Burg
07-24-2009, 03:18 PM
Hard to say who's best. During my childhood Billy Pierce and Early Winn were two of the top pitchers in the AL. Reading some old time players accounts, it seems that some players were actually scared to get in the batters box when Sherm Lollar pitched. Wilbur Wood was outstanding before the injury. Dotson and McDowell were also exciting. Even before the perfect game, Buerhle was moving into the collection of "best ever" Sox players. No matter, it is good to be able to have a discussion like this.

ode to veeck
07-24-2009, 03:40 PM
Thinking more about this today. I've already stated the reasons why Billy Pierce is the best I've seen but here's how I'd rank the rest of the top five:

2. Mark Buehrle - If he pitches another ten years for the Sox and wins 250 games or so, of course, his slot would have to change...but he's not there yet.

3. Wilbur Wood - Record setting relief pitcher before he became a record setting starting pitcher. Four time 20 game winner, three time All Star. NO ONE will ever throw the amount of innings he threw in a season or over a four year period again.

4. Jack McDowell - I've never had more confidence in any Sox pitcher on game day than him. Talent, guts, hated to lose. Would kick his teammates in the ass if needed. Two time 20 game winner, three time All Star, won more games in the A.L. from 1990 through 1994 than anybody (second in baseball to Greg Maddux.)

5. Gary Peters - Smooth throwing left hander. Deceptively fast, broke bats. Had big strikeout games. Co Rookie of the Year in 1963. 19 game winner in 63. 20 game winner in 64. Two time All Star.

These five also have to be in the discussion (in no particular order...) Early Wynn, Joe Horlen, Tommy John, Juan Pizarro and Alex Fernandez.

Lip

Not bad summary, I'd have to add Hoyt Wilhelm, who was unhittable at times and had less than 2.00 era for the sox for several years in the 60s and, for brief spells but simply phenomenal, Lamar Hoyt (who may have been the best of the full stable of young pitchers Veeck and Hemond put together in late 70s) and Goose Gossage, who, once Sain and Dick Allen taught a few things, was maybe the most intimidating pitcher the Sox ever had (up there with Gibson and young Nolan Ryan in that category). I might add Tommy John before he left us and had the rotator cuff injury, repair and comeback.

Juan Pizzaro was my favorite pitcher when I was a kid, though his best years were not too many and Horlen, Peters, and Tommy John came on stronger to be the better staff aces of mid 60s.

Another one that had a really outstanding couple of years: Rich Dotson, who was 22-7 the year Lamar won the Cy Young and the Sox folded to the Orioles in the playoffs,

JNS
07-24-2009, 06:44 PM
Not bad summary, I'd have to add Hoyt Wilhelm, who was unhittable at times and had less than 2.00 era for the sox for several years in the 60s and, for brief spells but simply phenomenal, Lamar Hoyt (who may have been the best of the full stable of young pitchers Veeck and Hemond put together in late 70s) and Goose Gossage, who, once Sain and Dick Allen taught a few things, was maybe the most intimidating pitcher the Sox ever had (up there with Gibson and young Nolan Ryan in that category). I might add Tommy John before he left us and had the rotator cuff injury, repair and comeback.

Juan Pizzaro was my favorite pitcher when I was a kid, though his best years were not too many and Horlen, Peters, and Tommy John came on stronger to be the better staff aces of mid 60s.

Another one that had a really outstanding couple of years: Rich Dotson, who was 22-7 the year Lamar won the Cy Young and the Sox folded to the Orioles in the playoffs,

Your additions are well taken. All of them were very good pitchers. I think - and this is why lifetime wins are so important - that durability is key when looking at the greatest. Taking that into account, Pizzaro, and Peters don't quite make the grade. John, Wilhelm, and Wood do, but Hoyt and Wilbur are in that strange netherworld reserved for knuckleballers. Horlen had a lot of durability, but was a classic "hard luck" pitcher (I saw him lose a no-hitter AND the game with 2 outs in the 9th against the Senators because the Sox could only score 1 run) and doesn't have the victories.

Not to digress too much, but didn't Ted Lyons spend the last part of his career being the Sox "Sunday pitcher?"

Lip Man 1
07-24-2009, 10:52 PM
JNS:

Ask and ye shall receive:

June 21, 1942- Sox pitcher and future Hall of Famer Ted Lyons wins his 250th game beating the Red Sox 6 - 5. That season Lyons only pitched on Sunday’s and posted this incredible statistic. In his 20 starts he completed all 20 games!At the end of the season Lyons then joined the Marines and served four years.

July 29, 1963 - Facing the Senators in Washington, Sox pitcher Joe Horlen takes a no hitter into the 9th inning. Only leading 1 - 0 and under incredible pressure, Horlen not only loses the no hitter but the game 2 - 1, as Chuck Hinton grounds a roller up the middle and Don Lock belts a two run homer. Horlen looked ready to cry on the post game show talking with Jack Brickhouse.

Lip

schach
07-25-2009, 08:40 PM
I say yes, and I'm going to take it one step further. Once he reaches the 200 mark, he ABSOLUTELY is a Hall of Famer! 2 no hitters (one being a perfect game) already puts him in the same category as some of the greatest to ever pitch. A World Series title, a homerun for a pitcher who has only played in the AL, and a multi-time All Star. I think that speaks for itself. We all know #56 will never again be worn by another White Sox player!

Sox
07-25-2009, 09:36 PM
I think that he is one of the best in the game right now bar none that I have seen in quite awhile.

Dan H
07-26-2009, 05:25 AM
Talent wise, there have been better pitchers. However, none have had the consistency that Buehrle has shown. Buehrle has stayed healthy, has shown he can pitch in a variety of situations, and is just a great player to have on team. This guy will be remembered for a long time. He sure is the best pitcher the team has had in a very long time, and I would take him over many pitchers who have more physical talent.

Procol Harum
07-29-2009, 12:40 PM
People tend to value that which they've actually experienced and that with which they are familiar, whether it be in music or following their favorite sports teams--this thread is a prime example of that. Taking the long view and a historical context is important.

In that light, heck no, Mark Buehrle is not the best pitcher I've ever seen pitch for the White Sox. He's been a real good, consistent, savvy pitcher over the last 6-7 years but no way is he the best. Personally, I would rank him about sixth in terms of pitchers who've been here and displayed superior stuff and pitching know-how over a period of at least 4-5 years:

-Horlen
-McDowell
-Wood
-Peters
-John
-Buehrle

And if I were to add the historical perspective--then folks like Lyons, Pierce, Walsh, and Cicotte would move into that list as well.

TDog
07-29-2009, 01:35 PM
... Wilbur Wood was outstanding before the injury. ...

It is important to note that the injury came from a line drive off the bat of Ron LeFlore that shattered Wood's kneecap. It wasn't an arm injury from overuse. Wood was pitching a great game that Saturday afternoon. LeFlore was the only Tiger who hit him, no pun intended.

Many of the pitchers noted here spent a lot of time with other teams or didn't have a long White Sox career at any rate. Tom Seaver and Steve Carlton were two of the greatest pitchers in the history of the game. Seaver was just pretty good by the time he came to the White Sox. Carlton wasn't, apparently having missed the memo that his career was over. Wilhelm was with the Sox just for a few years in the 1960s, coming over in the first Aparicio deal and being lost in the expansion draft before the 1969 season. And he was a reliever, albeit a reliever with a no-hitter to his credit. Now he's the only Hall of Famer to hit a home run in his only major league home run in his first major league at bat. His biggest contribution to the White Sox probably was mentoring Wilbur Wood. Wood packed in a lot of pitching in just a few years.

LaMarr Hoyt's success was short-lived. Jack McDowell spent only six seasons as a regular in the White Sox starting rotation. Early Wynn spent only five seasons with the Sox, and he had losing records.

The Sox even traded Billy Pierce to the Giants near the end, and Pierce was huge for the Giants in 1962, when they came so close to winning the World Series. I never got to see Pierce pitch for the Sox.

I would have to go with Wilbur Wood. But in some fantasy baseball game with pitchers playing in their White Sox pirme, I would probably have him backing up Mark Buehrle.

Lip Man 1
07-29-2009, 01:53 PM
TDog:

Don't necessarily disagree with your post. My thoughts were based basically on starting pitchers by the way.

My only comment is that I think Wilhelm did a lot more for the club than just mentor Wood.

Wilhelm became the top relief pitcher in the 1960's. In his six years with the Sox he’d win 41 games and save 98 while producing some astonishingly low ERA’s considering he threw the knuckleball.

Lip

Parrothead
07-29-2009, 02:17 PM
I am partial to La Marr Hoyt. But I am only 45 y.o.

TDog
07-29-2009, 02:19 PM
TDog:

Don't necessarily disagree with your post. My thoughts were based basically on starting pitchers by the way.

My only comment is that I think Wilhelm did a lot more for the club than just mentor Wood.

Wilhelm became the top relief pitcher in the 1960's. In his six years with the Sox he’d win 41 games and save 98 while producing some astonishingly low ERA’s considering he threw the knuckleball.

Lip

I agree with you about Wilhelm and always thought it was a crime that the White Sox left him unprotected in the expansion draft. But Wood easily pitched more than twice as many innings for the White Sox.

Wilhelm anchored the bullpen. Wood didn't just anchor the starting rotation. While Dick Allen was carrying the offense in 1972 (with an assist from Carlos May, Wood was carrying the pitching staff, with an assist from Stan Bahnsen.

Of course, the Sox came closer in 1964 with Wilhelm anchoring the bullpen, and after they swept the Yankees in a four-game series in August (I read about the Phil Linz harmonica thing in Ball Four), there was more reason for optimism than eight years to the day when the White Sox took a half game lead over the mighty A's.

I too would confine the discussion to starters, though. As great as Bobby Jenks' record for consecutive batters retired was, I thought Buehrle's achievement to tie it was more impressive, and that was before he surpassed it.