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shingo10
07-22-2009, 07:07 PM
The Score is reporting that Ozzie blew his lid at his pregame press conference. Anyone know what it was about? I haven't been able to hear any of the details.

DirtySox
07-22-2009, 07:08 PM
The Tribune said he had taken issue with the Jenks criticism I believe.

shingo10
07-22-2009, 07:12 PM
Thanks for the info.

Soxman219
07-22-2009, 07:14 PM
What was it about?

DirtySox
07-22-2009, 07:16 PM
http://blogs.chicagosports.chicagotribune.com/sports_hardball/2009/07/guillen-fires-back-at-jenks-critics-sundays-starter-tba.html

Oz: "He's my closer. If people don't want to see him my closer don't come to the God damn game!"

Twitter (http://twitter.com/cst_sox/statuses/2785847711)

Rohan
07-22-2009, 07:21 PM
Bobby Jenks is an absolute head case. He's said several times that he thrives on the energy and support that he gets from the fans. Ozzie knows this. This show of support is absolutely the right move to get Jenks back on the right track.

dickallen15
07-22-2009, 07:22 PM
I don't believe in booing or screaming nasty crap at players as long as they are giving effort. I was sitting behind the White Sox dugout earlier this season when Contreras was struggling and when he was lifted, what was coming out of some mouths was disgusting. I imagine the same types of things were spewed at Jenks last night. I guess we will never evolve from the "I paid to get in, I have the right to be an ignoramous" mentality. I actually think its getting worse. Some people used to at least occassionally have something humorous or at least original to yell at the players, but now its all the standard stuff.

kellykid
07-22-2009, 07:23 PM
Bobby Jenks is an absolute head case. He's said several times that he thrives on the energy and support that he gets from the fans. Ozzie knows this. This show of support is absolutely the right move to get Jenks back on the right track.

Aren't all closers headcases? lol I trust Ozzie, I'm just wondering what prompted this? I would think it would be more than simple booing by the fans.

Rohan
07-22-2009, 07:24 PM
I don't believe in booing or screaming nasty crap at players as long as they are giving effort. I was sitting behind the White Sox dugout earlier this season when Contreras was struggling and when he was lifted, what was coming out of some mouths was disgusting. I imagine the same types of things were spewed at Jenks last night. I guess we will never evolve from the "I paid to get in, I have the right to be an ignoramous" mentality. I actually think its getting worse. Some people used to at least occassionally have something humorous or at least original to yell at the players, but now its all the standard stuff.

I encountered the same type of attitude last night with Jenks. I tried to say WORLD SERIES out loud a few times to shut people up. There's really not much else that can be done.

And many of you may recall that I was one of the first critics of Jenks in this season. Although he's one of my favorite players, I also am not blind to the fact that his arm is nowhere where it has been the last three seasons. That being said, i'll still support him, and just hope that he finds his stuff sooner rather than later.

JB98
07-22-2009, 07:29 PM
I don't believe in booing or screaming nasty crap at players as long as they are giving effort. I was sitting behind the White Sox dugout earlier this season when Contreras was struggling and when he was lifted, what was coming out of some mouths was disgusting. I imagine the same types of things were spewed at Jenks last night. I guess we will never evolve from the "I paid to get in, I have the right to be an ignoramous" mentality. I actually think its getting worse. Some people used to at least occassionally have something humorous or at least original to yell at the players, but now its all the standard stuff.

I think it's really unfortunate when players who have done so much for the franchise get that kind of treatment.

Guys like Contreras and Jenks shouldn't have to take so much **** from the fans when they struggle. If not for those two guys, I wouldn't have World Series stuff hanging all over the walls in my apartment. I would never boo a guy like Jenks, even if he blew 10 saves in a row.

soxjim
07-22-2009, 07:37 PM
Bobby is just going through a rough stage right now. All relievers go through it. He will bounce back and be lights out.

hawkjt
07-22-2009, 07:44 PM
To me, the most important comment today was from Bobby himself who pronounced himself just frustrated that even tho he is 100% healthy, he is not getting the results he wants...that is a relief to me as I was concerned he was hurt.

Fans need to calm down...look at the postgame radio show and on here..anonymous fans venting at the players is almost out of control.

I try to not comment when emotions are running high and when I am at the ballpark I never boo our guys...just me.

Ozzie has Bobby's back and that is a good thing...

Red Barchetta
07-22-2009, 07:46 PM
I don't believe in booing or screaming nasty crap at players as long as they are giving effort. I was sitting behind the White Sox dugout earlier this season when Contreras was struggling and when he was lifted, what was coming out of some mouths was disgusting. I imagine the same types of things were spewed at Jenks last night. I guess we will never evolve from the "I paid to get in, I have the right to be an ignoramous" mentality. I actually think its getting worse. Some people used to at least occassionally have something humorous or at least original to yell at the players, but now its all the standard stuff.

I agree! The only time I ever really got on a player was when he was obviously dogging a play or not trying.

...except for the occassional cork comments directed at Mr. Sosa! :tongue:

PhillipsBubba
07-22-2009, 07:50 PM
As long as the White Sox charge for tickets and advertising time, the paying customers should express their displeasure at poor performance.

The players bask in the cheers from their adoring fans, they should be able to tolerate criticism when deserved.

As far as OG is concerned, he's, a lousy game manager but he DOES stick up for his players which I'm sure they appreciate.

If our heroes finish 1 game out of first, many people will be crying.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/parenting/images/300/baby_crying_closeup.jpg

WhiteSox1989
07-22-2009, 07:55 PM
I think it's really unfortunate when players who have done so much for the franchise get that kind of treatment.

Guys like Contreras and Jenks shouldn't have to take so much **** from the fans when they struggle. If not for those two guys, I wouldn't have World Series stuff hanging all over the walls in my apartment. I would never boo a guy like Jenks, even if he blew 10 saves in a row.

I understand what you're saying, and for the most part I agree.

Jenks was a huge reason the sox won the world series, but that was 5 years ago. I want to win now. I will always be "attached" to the players that were on that team that year. Always. But it isn't 2005 anymore.

That being said, when Contreras was getting booed it really pissed me off. Because he worked his ass off, and I just felt terrible for him. But last night I was pissed, and I said I probably would have booed if I were at the game, not so much at Jenks, but more at the situation.

I also think that the loss isn't solely Jenks' fault. Bases were loaded at one point, and not one single run crossed the plate. If Pods or Alexei would have came through this discussion probably wouldn't be happening right now.

slavko
07-22-2009, 07:55 PM
We are lucky because we have right here to vent our emotions. But emotions are funny things which get vented at the wrong time for those around us. I'm going to respectfully disagree with you folks because I feel it is my right to say anything I want to a player if it is factual and PG-rated.

I didn't think a delicate psyche was part of the job description for a closer, but apparently Bobby has one. If he's 100% physically, then he is overstriding or holding the ball wrong or overweight enough to slightly change some of his mechanics, because he is not locating his pitches. Herm? Coop? Jenny Craig? HELP.

slavko
07-22-2009, 07:57 PM
As far as OG is concerned, he's, a lousy game manager but he DOES stick up for his players which I'm sure they appreciate.



Except when he throws them under the bus.

JB98
07-22-2009, 08:01 PM
I understand what you're saying, and for the most part I agree.

Jenks was a huge reason the sox won the world series, but that was 5 years ago. I want to win now. I will always be "attached" to the players that were on that team that year. Always. But it isn't 2005 anymore.

That being said, when Contreras was getting booed it really pissed me off. Because he worked his ass off, and I just felt terrible for him. But last night I was pissed, and I said I probably would have booed if I were at the game, not so much at Jenks, but more at the situation.

I also think that the loss isn't solely Jenks' fault. Bases were loaded at one point, and not one single run crossed the plate. If Pods or Alexei would have came through this discussion probably wouldn't be happening right now.

Of course. But Jenks is also a big reason why the Sox currently sit in second place. That's why it is sickening that he is being treated so poorly over one blown save. It's one bad game, for crying out loud.

It isn't like Jenks hasn't done anything for the team since 2005.

JB98
07-22-2009, 08:01 PM
We are lucky because we have right here to vent our emotions. But emotions are funny things which get vented at the wrong time for those around us. I'm going to respectfully disagree with you folks because I feel it is my right to say anything I want to a player if it is factual and PG-rated.

I didn't think a delicate psyche was part of the job description for a closer, but apparently Bobby has one. If he's 100% physically, then he is overstriding or holding the ball wrong or overweight enough to slightly change some of his mechanics, because he is not locating his pitches. Herm? Coop? Jenny Craig? HELP.

No, he doesn't.

WhiteSox1989
07-22-2009, 08:06 PM
Of course. But Jenks is also a big reason why the Sox currently sit in second place. That's why it is sickening that he is being treated so poorly over one blown save. It's one bad game, for crying out loud.

It isn't like Jenks hasn't done anything for the team since 2005.

I think people overreacted a bit with the Jenks situation, myself included. But as soon as the game ended I realized it wasn't all his fault.

I am still pretty confident in Jenks, not as much as I once was, but a couple bad outings aren't making me write him off as our closer.

Dan H
07-22-2009, 08:07 PM
I never boo when I go to the ballpark. I know how frustrating things can get, but all closers blow saves. That is really frustrating expecially in a game like this one. But why boo? The effort was there; the execution was not.

I don't think fans need to get on Jenks. He takes any blown save hard. He looked completely dejected as the Tampa closer mowed the Sox down.

Though I still like Jenks, there is room for concern. He doesn't look like the same intimidating pitcher he once was. Booing, as hurtful as that can be, may be the least of his problems.

gobears1987
07-22-2009, 08:51 PM
Bobby is just going through a rough stage right now. All relievers go through it. He will bounce back and be lights out.
He went through this in 2007. He responded by retiring 41 straight and tying an MLB record.

BoysMom3
07-22-2009, 09:27 PM
Some of the people around me last night were booing, and it ticked me off. This one kid in front of me, probably 17 y.o., earlier in the game said "let's go JD"...when Thome was batting. So I wanted to tell him to shut up and that he sucks when he booed because he also told Jenks he sucks.

A lot of the fans around us were saying crap to Ozzie, and he was getting into it with some fans. He looked at one guy with a shoulder shrug, like - what? He was really ticked. AJ looked pretty mad at Jenks when he looked over at the dugout.

thomas35forever
07-22-2009, 09:29 PM
A lot of the fans around us were saying crap to Ozzie, and he was getting into it with some fans. He looked at one guy with a shoulder shrug, like - what? He was really ticked. AJ looked pretty mad at Jenks when he looked over at the dugout.
Now that pisses me off. Let the man do his job. He's won one more World Series as a manager than you ever will.

BoysMom3
07-22-2009, 09:38 PM
Yeah, there were some fans behind the dugout that were really giving Ozzie a hard time. I thought Ozzie would go off after the game last night about this, actually. Dang, I wish we could always afford to sit so close - totally awesome experience.

Brian26
07-22-2009, 10:12 PM
As long as the White Sox charge for tickets and advertising time, the paying customers should express their displeasure at poor performance.


Booing accomplishes nothing at all. If fans want to voice displeasure, they can stop going to the games.

Lip Man 1
07-22-2009, 10:30 PM
Brian:

That's a good point and given the difficult economy and the fact that the Sox have been an "average" club this year you may see that significantly next season.

I understand Ozzie's position and I respect him for defending his players but he needs to be a little more cognizant of pissing off the fan base that pays the freight for everyone (including ownership) to make a lot of money.

That being said my position has always been that if the comments aren't racial, sexual or vulgar a paying fan has the right to say what they damn well please especially if a player or players aren't producing. This isn't high school or college, these are grown men making a lot of money to perform. If that bothers them that much they need to give serious thought to another profession, one that isn't under as much scrutiny.

Lip

Red Barchetta
07-22-2009, 10:57 PM
To me, the most important comment today was from Bobby himself who pronounced himself just frustrated that even tho he is 100% healthy, he is not getting the results he wants...that is a relief to me as I was concerned he was hurt.

Fans need to calm down...look at the postgame radio show and on here..anonymous fans venting at the players is almost out of control.

I try to not comment when emotions are running high and when I am at the ballpark I never boo our guys...just me.

Ozzie has Bobby's back and that is a good thing...

Interesting that Ozzie backed Jenks publically, however decided to let Thorton face 3 RH batters in the top of the 9th in tonight's game. Good result, however interesting move...

gobears1987
07-22-2009, 10:59 PM
Interesting that Ozzie backed Jenks publically, however decided to let Thorton face 3 RH batters in the top of the 9th in tonight's game. Good result, however interesting move...
Even if Bobby threw a 1-2-3 last night he wasn't going out tonight as that would be 3 straight nights going out for a save. He would be spent. If we have a save op tomorrow, Bobby goes out.

voodoochile
07-22-2009, 11:17 PM
I've got such a mancrush on Ozzie. He may not always make the right X's and O's decisions, but he really gets what it takes to manage people on a personal level. You think any guy in that locker room wouldn't run through a wall for him?

Don't ever change, Ozzie. Keep telling it like it is and let the experts worry about the rest...

gobears1987
07-22-2009, 11:22 PM
It just shows that polls showing players don't want to play for Ozzie or Lou are dog ****. I'll bet any of Ozzie's players who put forth any amount of effort would play for no one else. If you try, Ozzie will have your back even if you don't perform.

If you dog it, Ozzie will call you out. An example that comes to mind is when Carlos Lee refused to slide hard into 2nd to break up a double play. He's a great manager and anyone who says otherwise is full of **** and a Mariotti ass kisser. Besides, it says a lot when a lot of players voted they would rather play for a manager who doesn't expect **** out of you in terms of work (Wedge).

voodoochile
07-22-2009, 11:27 PM
It just shows that polls showing players don't want to play for Ozzie or Lou are dog ****. I'll bet any of Ozzie's players who put forth any amount of effort would play for no one else. If you try, Ozzie will have your back even if you don't perform.

If you dog it, Ozzie will call you out. An example that comes to mind is when Carlos Lee refused to slide hard into 2nd to break up a double play. He's a great manager and anyone who says otherwise is full of **** and a Mariotti ass kisser. Besides, it says a lot when a lot of players voted they would rather play for a manager who doesn't expect **** out of you in terms of work (Wedge).

I never did get that. I once read a poll taken of NFL players and the two coaches that got named as least desireable to play for were Chuck Noll and Don Shula.

If you don't want to play for those two coaches, you shouldn't be playing professional football, period.

Not to hijack the thread, but it's the same in baseball. You don't want to play for coaches who consistently win, then you're not really a baseball player, you're an entertainer who happens to play baseball and gets paid well for it.

JB98
07-22-2009, 11:29 PM
Brian:

That's a good point and given the difficult economy and the fact that the Sox have been an "average" club this year you may see that significantly next season.

I understand Ozzie's position and I respect him for defending his players but he needs to be a little more cognizant of pissing off the fan base that pays the freight for everyone (including ownership) to make a lot of money.

That being said my position has always been that if the comments aren't racial, sexual or vulgar a paying fan has the right to say what they damn well please especially if a player or players aren't producing. This isn't high school or college, these are grown men making a lot of money to perform. If that bothers them that much they need to give serious thought to another profession, one that isn't under as much scrutiny.

Lip

Ozzie's comments have the reverse effect on me. As a fan, he did not piss me off. I agree with his remarks 100 percent.

gobears1987
07-22-2009, 11:31 PM
Ozzie's comments have the reverse effect on me. As a fan, he did not piss me off. I agree with his remarks 100 percent.
Yep, I love seeing Ozzie do this. There is a reason we just named our shih-tzu puppy Ozzie.

Viva Medias B's
07-23-2009, 12:16 AM
Ozzie was right. The people who booed Jenks last night have short memories.

EuroSox35
07-23-2009, 12:48 AM
Ozzie needs to cool it (though funny how he doesn't use Bobby tonight, which I agree with. Get him a day or two off, get him away from the Rays after these nights). Sox fans are mad at his recent performances, especially if he's not going to throw strikes and do things like ruin a Richard career start that was slated as a loss before the first pitch was thrown. I doubt many people are screaming for him to be removed. Ozzie is making it about him if he had an 'outburst', and maybe he's doing it to deflect attention of the real issue, but he's overreacting

gobears1987
07-23-2009, 01:00 AM
Ozzie needs to cool it (though funny how he doesn't use Bobby tonight, which I agree with. Get him a day or two off, get him away from the Rays after these nights). Sox fans are mad at his recent performances, especially if he's not going to throw strikes and do things like ruin a Richard career start that was slated as a loss before the first pitch was thrown. I doubt many people are screaming for him to be removed. Ozzie is making it about him if he had an 'outburst', and maybe he's doing it to deflect attention of the real issue, but he's overreacting
Gee, don't you think that many the fact Bobby threw a **** tone of pitches the last two nights is why he wasn't used? Get a clue. If Jenks had retired the side 1-2-3 last night, he still wouldn't have been used tonight. You're right, Ozzie's outburst is to make it about him. That's exactly the entire ****ing point and why Ozzie is a manager and you are not. By having an outburst the story is about Ozzie, not Bobby. He takes the heat off of him because that's what a good manager does. Ozzie did the exact same thing in 2005 when the team looked to be losing the division lead. It takes pressure off the players and allows them to perform. I think we all know how that turned out.

spawn
07-23-2009, 07:30 AM
Ozzie's comments have the reverse effect on me. As a fan, he did not piss me off. I agree with his remarks 100 percent.
Amen to this. I heard his comments on the Score last night, and I clapped. No hemming and hawing, or beating around the bush. That's how you support your players. Bravo Ozzie.

RedHeadPaleHoser
07-23-2009, 07:57 AM
I never did get that. I once read a poll taken of NFL players and the two coaches that got named as least desireable to play for were Chuck Noll and Don Shula.

If you don't want to play for those two coaches, you shouldn't be playing professional football, period.

Not to hijack the thread, but it's the same in baseball. You don't want to play for coaches who consistently win, then you're not really a baseball player, you're an entertainer who happens to play baseball and gets paid well for it.

IMHO, Guillen "least likely to play for" is a compliment. You're too fragile to take an ass beating by your boss when you screw up and don't perform? Don't work here.

What those same players forget it Ozzie take ALOT of **** off their shoulders by backing them publicly when he feels they're right. And I think he backs his players ALOT more than any other manager we've seen on this team in a long time, if ever.

Lip Man 1
07-23-2009, 09:08 AM
This and That:

I've always felt complete, total loyalty to anything...a sports team, religion, political figure, country is dangerous. If enough folks feel the same way some disquieting things can take place.

---------------------------------

There's an old business axiom that JR himself follows and has ordered his staff to follow, "the customer's always right..."

Just something that needs to be kept in mind in these tough economic times with the White Sox talking about "attendance" issues from time to time. The way to make friends and influence the fans isn't by blasting them.

I've often wondered why in Chicago when White Sox fans get upset and boo from time to time that a certain segment of the fan base as well as some in the organization get "upset", yet this is considered an accepted practice by the fans and media in cities like Philadelphia and New York.

What is the difference between those cities and Chicago?

Like I said I have no issues with a fan booing as long as it's not racial, sexual or vulgar.

If a player doesn't want fans to boo the answer is simple... do your job and win more games.

Lip

SoxFan78
07-23-2009, 09:12 AM
I've always been a fan of Bobby Jenks and Ozzie Guillen, but if I was at the park on Tuesday I would have been booing him.

If Jenks was lights out in games before Tuesday and then he blew a save, then I could agree with Ozzie and say people have a short memory.

But Bobby has been bad his past 5 outings, so its not like the wheels just came off for a game.

7/10 - 1.0 IP, 2 H, 1 K, 1 ER - Sox lost to Twins 6-4
7/11 - 1.1 IP, 2 H, 1 K, 1 ER - Save - Sox beat Twins 8-7
7/18 - 1.0 IP, 3 H, 2 K , 2 ER - Save - Sox beat O's 4-3
7/20 - 1.0 IP, 1 H, 3 K, 0 ER, 2 BB - Save - Sox beat Rays 4-3
7/21 - 1.0 IP, 2 H, 0 K, 2 ER, 2 BB - Blown Save - Sox lose to Rays 3-23

spawn
07-23-2009, 09:15 AM
I've often wondered why in Chicago when White Sox fans get upset and boo from time to time that a certain segment of the fan base as well as some in the organization get "upset", yet this is considered an accepted practice by the fans and media in cities like Philadelphia and New York.

What is the difference between those cities and Chicago?

We're not Philiadelphia, nor are we New York. Just because booing their own players is an accepted practice by fans and media in New York and Philly doesn't make it right. And just as you feel it's ok to boo under certain circumstances, I feel it's ok to blast ignorant fans that boo a player that has been extremely successful throughout his career here in Chicago simply because he's going through a bad stretch of games.

Lip Man 1
07-23-2009, 09:23 AM
Spawn:

Your opinion is fine, that's not my question. I'm wondering what is the difference and why is it accepted in one place but not the other?

And it's possible those fans would tell you it is "right" to boo... that by not doing it you get the Chicago Cubs and 100 years of bad baseball.

Not trying to start something just trying to get some opinions on why it's right in some places but according to some not in others. I'd think it's either consistently "correct" to do or consistently "wrong" to do no?

That's not even factoring in the risk you run in alienating some of said fan base, since according to some in the organization, attendance is becoming an issue.

Lip

Johnny Mostil
07-23-2009, 09:24 AM
This and That:

I've always felt complete, total loyalty to anything...a sports team, religion, political figure, country is dangerous. If enough folks feel the same way some disquieting things can take place.

---------------------------------

There's an old business axiom that JR himself follows and has ordered his staff to follow, "the customer's always right..."

Just something that needs to be kept in mind in these tough economic times with the White Sox talking about "attendance" issues from time to time. The way to make friends and influence the fans isn't by blasting them.

I've often wondered why in Chicago when White Sox fans get upset and boo from time to time that a certain segment of the fan base as well as some in the organization get "upset", yet this is considered an accepted practice by the fans and media in cities like Philadelphia and New York.

What is the difference between those cities and Chicago?

Like I said I have no issues with a fan booing as long as it's not racial, sexual or vulgar.

If a player doesn't want fans to boo the answer is simple... do your job and win more games.

Lip

I tend to agree with this. If I'd been at Tuesday's game, after reading Ozzie's comments I might wait longer than usual before going to another. I wouldn't have booed Jenks, but I also couldn't get too upset at anybody else who did (as long as it's not racial, sexual, or vulgar).

spawn
07-23-2009, 09:32 AM
I tend to agree with this. If I'd been at Tuesday's game, after reading Ozzie's comments I might wait longer than usual before going to another. I wouldn't have booed Jenks, but I also couldn't get too upset at anybody else who did (as long as it's not racial, sexual, or vulgar).
I think it's ridiculous to boo a player if he's going through a bad stretch. He's not Jamie Navarro, Todd Ritchie, Dewon Day, players who were consistently terrible during their brief tenures with the Sox. Bobby Jenks has been one of the best closers in the game the last few years, and has meant a lot to the White Sox and their fans. Do you think it would be ok to bo Mariano Rivera if he had a bad stretch of games? Would you boo Mark Buehrle if he had a couple of bad starts in a row? I thought it was wrong that Dewayne Wise would get booed, but I could understand why, seeing as he's really not a very good ball player. Jenks OTOH is a completely different matter all together. Ozzie's comment actually makes me want to show up, becasue it proves he's a manager that will support his players, popularity be damned.

Johnny Mostil
07-23-2009, 09:38 AM
I think it's ridiculous to boo a player if he's going through a bad stretch. He's not Jamie Navarro, Todd Ritchie, Dewon Day, players who were consistently terrible during their brief tenures with the Sox. Bobby Jenks has been one of the best closers in the game the last few years, and has meant a lot to the White Sox and their fans. Do you think it would be ok to bo Mariano Rivera if he had a bad stretch of games? Would you boo Mark Buehrle if he had a couple of bad starts in a row? I thought it was wrong that Dewayne Wise would get booed, but I could understand why, seeing as he's really not a very good ball player. Jenks OTOH is a completely different matter all together. Ozzie's comment actually makes me want to show up, becasue it proves he's a manager that will support his players, popularity be damned.

Please re-read what I said: I wouldn't have booed Jenks. And I'm sorry to have to tell you the issue isn't what you or I would or should have done: it's the legitimate one Lip raised about alienating a fan base, especially in an organization that recently observed lack of fan support is limiting its options.

In point of fact, a long, long time ago I attended a game in which there was a similar chain of events involving Salome Barojas, Tony LaRussa, booing fans, and a game the Sox blew in the 9th. I did attend that game, didn't boo Barojas, but also didn't attend for longer than usual after reading LaRussa's pissy comments the next day. Whether I was "right" or "wrong" is, I think, irrelevant, and misses the point. Some fans are going to react that way. To think otherwise is naive.

spawn
07-23-2009, 09:44 AM
Please re-read what I said: I wouldn't have booed Jenks. And I'm sorry to have to tell you the issue isn't what you or I would or should have done: it's the legitimate one Lip raised about alienating a fan base, especially in an organization that recently observed lack of fan support is limiting its options.

I wasn't commenting on you booing Jenks, but you said you understood why people did. I don't. As far as alienating a fan base, true Sox fans that follow this team won't be alienated IMO. Only the bandwagon jumpers. They can jump off the bandwagon as far as I'm concerned. Real fans will appreciate the manager of their team standing up for his players. I for one respect him even more now.

ms620
07-23-2009, 09:50 AM
I do not agree with booing your team. I never have and never will. However, there is no problem being concerned with Jenks.

Johnny Mostil
07-23-2009, 09:50 AM
I wasn't commenting on you booing Jenks, but you said you understood why people did. I don't. As far as alienating a fan base, true Sox fans that follow this team won't be alienated IMO. Only the bandwagon jumpers. They can jump off the bandwagon as far as I'm concerned. Real fans will appreciate the manager of their team standing up for his players. I for one respect him even more now.

And you, me, and maybe 20K (or 10K or 5K) other die-hards can have ourselves a grand old time at the ballpark every night! I'll guess most fans who booed Jenks are casual fans who didn't stop to think, golly, this is Bobby Jenks, who helped the Sox win a Series in '05, and no, we shouldn't boo him.

Like it or not, a good number of them think it's their "right" to boo a poor performance. And like it or not, the Sox need their revenues, too.

spawn
07-23-2009, 09:55 AM
I do not agree with booing your team. I never have and never will. However, there is no problem being concerned with Jenks.
I can understand being concerned about Bobby. I for one think he'll be ok, but again, I understand people being nervous.

Trav
07-23-2009, 10:28 AM
The Trib has an article that mentioned Jenks being booed. Surely that is not true. How dumb do you have to be to boo a player like that?

southside rocks
07-23-2009, 10:35 AM
Brian:

That's a good point and given the difficult economy and the fact that the Sox have been an "average" club this year you may see that significantly next season.

I understand Ozzie's position and I respect him for defending his players but he needs to be a little more cognizant of pissing off the fan base that pays the freight for everyone (including ownership) to make a lot of money.

That being said my position has always been that if the comments aren't racial, sexual or vulgar a paying fan has the right to say what they damn well please especially if a player or players aren't producing. This isn't high school or college, these are grown men making a lot of money to perform. If that bothers them that much they need to give serious thought to another profession, one that isn't under as much scrutiny.

Lip

I seriously doubt that Ozzie is "pissing off the fan base." He may be angering some ignorant --and very vocal -- people who indeed will not go to future games; but who cares? Those types of jackasses are around in great quantities.

True fans understand what Ozzie saying here, and even if they don't agree with him, they aren't going to boycott the team they love just because Ozzie Guillen told them to shut up.

I get tired of reading and hearing comments about how Ozzie should be more careful not to offend people. **** 'em if they can't take a joke. Ozzie has been his outspoken self for five years now, and they have been five of the best attendance years in team history -- or in my memory, anyway, and I go back to 1967 with this team. I guess fans don't have such delicate sensibilities that they can't take Ozzie's rants! :tongue:

The people who are not vocal about this still have strong feelings. I don't bother to call in to the Score and I don't post here much, but I support the Sox with my money and I will do so for as long as KW and Ozzie are in charge -- and beyond that, I hope.

I was at the game where Jenks had a meltdown. It was horrible, it was like being punched repeatedly. But my main concern is for Jenks: I hope he's not injured.

And nobody argues that fans don't have the "right" to boo. All we non-booing fans are saying is: show a little class, can't you? If you can't, we understand.

thedudeabides
07-23-2009, 10:57 AM
This and That:

There's an old business axiom that JR himself follows and has ordered his staff to follow, "the customer's always right..."

Just something that needs to be kept in mind in these tough economic times with the White Sox talking about "attendance" issues from time to time. The way to make friends and influence the fans isn't by blasting them.

I've often wondered why in Chicago when White Sox fans get upset and boo from time to time that a certain segment of the fan base as well as some in the organization get "upset", yet this is considered an accepted practice by the fans and media in cities like Philadelphia and New York.

What is the difference between those cities and Chicago?


Lip

Maybe, JR should take his own advice. It's an axiom he doesn't follow very well. How about alienating a fanbase? Do we even need to start listing ways he's pissed off his customers over the years?

-----------------------------------------------------------------------

As far as Philly and NY go, they are generally looked at as some of the worst fans in any sport. Outside of the ESPN love, they are obnoxious. I will never go back to a sporting event in Philly, and I have attended several. And I don't see Yankee fans booing players who have been long standing stars who are going through a rough patch.

Lip Man 1
07-23-2009, 11:00 AM
Southside:

I don't this this is a "politically correct" issue at all. I do think it's a business issue.

As Dan Helpinstein has pointed out in his books, Sox ownership has taken to task the fan base in the past and said fan base hasn't reacted well to it, much to the chagrin of ownership.

You've also had the specter of attendance brought up earlier this season by the G.M. and as Ed Sherman pointed out for Crain's Business, the Sox probably don't want to go down that road, it hasn't worked well for them in the past.

In this economy all fans are needed, every single one of them, "true" fans, "die-hards" AND "bandwagon" jumpers.

Every one of their money is green and spends easily should the Sox choose to do so.

That's the issue. Not forcing a fan base into a bad reaction regardless of how well meaning the comments are (i.e. defending Jenks...). It doesn't matter if it causes the loss of a single fan, ten fans or a thousand fans...every one is needed.

Earlier this year Ozzie made a comment along the lines of, "Sox fans want a 300 million dollar payroll and an All Star at every position..." He belittled them somewhat with those comments and he should know better, he's been in town long enough to know so.

That's not automatically the case and he knows that too, but what they do want (if I may be so bold as to make a generalization) is knowing that have a legit shot to compete for a American League championship and a return trip to the World Series.

If you can do that on a 50 million dollar payroll fans won't care. They do care if you have stiffs like Ownes, Lillibridge, MacDougal, Miller and Betemit on the roster, say you can "compete" then make attendance a factor on if you can upgrade talent or not. (With fans staying somewhat away because of bad team performance and bad weather)

You can't have it both ways in comments... (meaning the organization) you can't want fans to come out regardless of how the team is playing or who'se on it but then take them to task for expressing their views.

Sox fans are no different from fans in other cities not should they be expected to act or react differently or held to a different standard...they are all people regardless of if they are in Chicago, Boston, Philadelphia or New York.

Based on my experience Sox fans are a lot milder than fans in the Eastern cities. If Ozzie or any Sox player, thinks he has it difficult, he should ask players on those clubs how it feels to play badly in front of their fans.

They'd get an education I think.

Lip

Lip Man 1
07-23-2009, 11:05 AM
Dude:

You're correct, history has recorded a number of bad or dubious business decisions on the part of current ownership with regards to their fans but that is the MO of the organization (i.e. the fans always right...)

That doesn't mean it's always put into practice or as effectively as possible I certainly grant you.

Lip

southside rocks
07-23-2009, 11:09 AM
Earlier this year Ozzie made a comment along the lines of, "Sox fans want a 300 million dollar payroll and an All Star at every position..." He belittled them somewhat with those comments and he should know better, he's been in town long enough to know so.

Lip

You know, I didn't find that comment belittling to fans.

I found that comment spot-on, because quite a few posters on various fan boards DO seem to think that their teams should have a roster of only top-quality players. Those people need to recognize reality.

I've also read a lot of comments on fan boards that completely dismiss the effect that the serious economic recession has had and will continue to have on MLB teams' revenues. My mind boggles at people who think that way.

As for comparing the fans in Philly and New York -- and it's interesting that you could only come up with TWO cities out of the entire MLB roster of cities -- are you seriously asking what the difference is between residents of NYC and Chicago? Um, have you spent any time in either city? Meaning no disrespect with that question!

Philly is something else, those fans -- like Bosox fans -- are just, well, different. And even there, who's to say that the boo birds are not a vocal MINORITY? I don't live there or attend games there so I don't know. Do I believe everything the sports media tells me? ROTFLMAO!

Ranger
07-23-2009, 11:13 AM
As long as the White Sox charge for tickets and advertising time, the paying customers should express their displeasure at poor performance.

The players bask in the cheers from their adoring fans, they should be able to tolerate criticism when deserved.

As far as OG is concerned, he's, a lousy game manager but he DOES stick up for his players which I'm sure they appreciate.

If our heroes finish 1 game out of first, many people will be crying.



First, I'll say that I really don't understand this idea of Ozzie being a lousy game manager. In what way? His moves aren't all perfect, but he's far from being lousy. Listen, just because someone on a message board one day says he's terrible, doesn't mean he's terrible.

Second, you're free to boo a player anytime you want, but the likelihood is that you'll look like an idiot doing it. I don't care how much a guy makes, if you think booing can't affect him, you're out of your mind. Millions of dollars don't insulate you from negative energy in the middle of a game. Not all guys are affected by it, but many -- if not most -- are. And if you think players around the league don't talk to each other or don't notice it, you're also delusional. Just wait 'til that player has a free agency decision to make, or has a NTC in his contract. You better believe stuff like that will factor into his decision.

You don't have to like it, I'm just telling you how it is.

Ranger
07-23-2009, 11:14 AM
I'll take my previous post a step further and say that the only two times I think booing one of your own players is acceptable is when he's clearly not trying or he makes ridiculous mental errors. Just my opinion.

southside rocks
07-23-2009, 11:17 AM
I'll take my previous post a step further and say that the only two times I think booing one of your own players is acceptable is when he's clearly not trying or he makes ridiculous mental errors. Just my opinion.


You mean like when the player forgets how many are out in the inning and tosses the ball into the stands? :tongue:

Lip Man 1
07-23-2009, 11:25 AM
Hey Chris:

Hope all is well.

I don't disagree with you just that I think if it's along the guidelines of what I said earlier (no racial, sexual or vulgar comments) if a paying fan wants to boo they have the right to do so and I don't think the organization, who apparently feels attendance is an issue again, should say anything that could cause repercussions with at least a portion of the fan base.

In this economic situation every little bit helps right?

----------------

Southside:

Like I said previously my point is you can't have it both ways in comments. You can't want the fans to come out then deride them for wanting a certain standard be it an individual performance or a team one.

I said Philly and New York because they are the most prominent but ask Fenway about the Red Sox fans, try Detroit when the Tigers have stunk (as far back as the "placid" 1950's fans there were throwing liqueur bottles out of the upper deck in Tiger Stadium when the team was terrible...) even Ranger will tell you about how Cardinal fans have gotten of some of their players. In his interview he remarked about how he saw them go after Dennis Eckersly.

Fans are fans and are going to be fans regardless of where they live. That's the nature of the beast.

Lip

spawn
07-23-2009, 11:28 AM
Second, you're free to boo a player anytime you want, but the likelihood is that you'll look like an idiot doing it. I don't care how much a guy makes, if you think booing can't affect him, you're out of your mind. Millions of dollars don't insulate you from negative energy in the middle of a game. Not all guys are affected by it, but many -- if not most -- are. And if you think players around the league don't talk to each other or don't notice it, you're also delusional. Just wait 'til that player has a free agency decision to make, or has a NTC in his contract. You better believe stuff like that will factor into his decision.

I'll take this a step further. Say there is a prospective high value FA that is deciding on a team to sign with. They may take into account that a player that has done so much for his team and then gets booed when that player goes into a funk. How does that look to the FA when deciding to sign with a team? I'm not saying that would be the deciding factor, but it could weigh on his decision on who to sign with. Look what's happening in LA. Mayy is suspended for 50 games for testing positive for a banned substance, and when he returns he's treated like a God. Besides getting paid, he's probably ecstatic he re-signed with the Dodgers because of how the fans are treating him.

Lip Man 1
07-23-2009, 11:34 AM
Spawn:

I'm not going to say it couldn't be a factor. The possibility is not zero, but I think it's far, far less than you make it out to be.

Right or wrong, I think most people agree that the biggest factors in free agents are 1. money, 2. team's chances to win.

And I'm sure some fans will be commenting that the Sox almost never get themselves into a position to get that type of player in the first place so it's basically irrelevant. (I'm not totally agreeing with that opinion myself...)

Lip

spawn
07-23-2009, 11:45 AM
Spawn:

I'm not going to say it couldn't be a factor. The possibility is not zero, but I think it's far, far less than you make it out to be.

Right or wrong, I think most people agree that the biggest factors in free agents are 1. money, 2. team's chances to win.

And I'm sure some fans will be commenting that the Sox almost never get themselves into a position to get that type of player in the first place so it's basically irrelevant. (I'm not totally agreeing with that opinion myself...)

Lip
I said it wasn't a deciding factor, but how a team's fans treat the players on the team could factor in their decision to sign with a team. And I wasn't making it a major factor. If you really read the post, you'd see I said they may take it into account. It may not be an overriding factor, but it could matter. And I wasn't talking about the Sox in particular in terms of FA signing, but teams in general. Yes, money and the teams chances to win are the major factors. I have never said otherwise.

thedudeabides
07-23-2009, 12:00 PM
First, I'll say that I really don't understand this idea of Ozzie being a lousy game manager. In what way? His moves aren't all perfect, but he's far from being lousy. Listen, just because someone on a message board one day says he's terrible, doesn't mean he's terrible.

Second, you're free to boo a player anytime you want, but the likelihood is that you'll look like an idiot doing it. I don't care how much a guy makes, if you think booing can't affect him, you're out of your mind. Millions of dollars don't insulate you from negative energy in the middle of a game. Not all guys are affected by it, but many -- if not most -- are. And if you think players around the league don't talk to each other or don't notice it, you're also delusional. Just wait 'til that player has a free agency decision to make, or has a NTC in his contract. You better believe stuff like that will factor into his decision.

You don't have to like it, I'm just telling you how it is.

I couldn't agree more. And these players emotions are at an all time high while they are getting boo'ed. You could physically see how upset Bobby has been lately with himself on the mound. Then when you walk back to the dugout and have to hear people shouting obsenities, it's not easy to keep it together.

I hate using something like poker, as an example, but players always talk about putting someone on tilt, and they no longer make good decisions. It's sort of how players feel, and often how Ozzie reacts in these press conferences.

I'm not getting involved in the discussion about booing players. I don't do it, but I'm not here to tell you how to handle yourself at a sporting event. Players do get paid a lot to play this game, but they also do get affected emotionally. It's why people who invest heavily in statistics in order to understand the game, will never fully get it. This game is more mental than any other professional sport.

TDog
07-23-2009, 12:14 PM
I said it wasn't a deciding factor, but how a team's fans treat the players on the team could factor in their decision to sign with a team. And I wasn't making it a major factor. If you really read the post, you'd see I said they may take it into account. It may not be an overriding factor, but it could matter. And I wasn't talking about the Sox in particular in terms of FA signing, but teams in general. Yes, money and the teams chances to win are the major factors. I have never said otherwise.


There are definitely players who won't consider playing for certain teams or in certain cities because of the fans/media or the circus that a combination of the two can become. There are players who don't want to play in New York. There are players who jump at the opportunity to leave New York after agreeing to play there.

I don't know how often it hoppens with Chicago or the White Sox if at all. But sometimes that could work out in a team's best interests. Jamie Navarro should have seen that he wouldn't be treated well and signed elsewhere. Barry Zito is having a rough time in San Francisco, but I'm sure he knows it would be worse in New York or Chicago.

Ranger
07-23-2009, 02:25 PM
I'm gonna respond to this the Mark Liptak way (because I still haven't figured out how to quote multiple posts at once):

Spawn:

That's exactly what I'm talking about. Say you've offered comparable deal to one player that has multiple offers. You don't think a guy will think to himself, "Let's see..I can make $40 million from St. Louis where I'll be treated well and have a chance to win, or I can go to Chicago and make $40 mil, have a chance to win, but get booed if I have a bad night. Hmmm." Don't think that stuff doesn't happen, because it does. It may not be the main factor, but it can definitely be a deciding factor. Professional or not, this stuff can matter to them. And I can't say I blame them.

Lip:

As I said, you can boo all you want, but it really serves no purpose. It doesn't help the cause, especially if the guy is seriously trying to do well. Booing Bobby Jenks is ridiculous...I don't care how bad he has been lately.

However, if a guy is making tens of millions of dollars, but is loafing (and isn't injured), by all means, let him have it. When you pay for a ticket, you are paying for best effort. That's the only thing fair to require of them, really.

JB98
07-23-2009, 02:39 PM
I'm gonna respond to this the Mark Liptak way (because I still haven't figured out how to quote multiple posts at once):

Spawn:

That's exactly what I'm talking about. Say you've offered comparable deal to one player that has multiple offers. You don't think a guy will think to himself, "Let's see..I can make $40 million from St. Louis where I'll be treated well and have a chance to win, or I can go to Chicago and make $40 mil, have a chance to win, but get booed if I have a bad night. Hmmm." Don't think that stuff doesn't happen, because it does. It may not be the main factor, but it can definitely be a deciding factor. Professional or not, this stuff can matter to them. And I can't say I blame them.

Lip:

As I said, you can boo all you want, but it really serves no purpose. It doesn't help the cause, especially if the guy is seriously trying to do well. Booing Bobby Jenks is ridiculous...I don't care how bad he has been lately.

However, if a guy is making tens of millions of dollars, but is loafing (and isn't injured), by all means, let him have it. When you pay for a ticket, you are paying for best effort. That's the only thing fair to require of them, really.

Absolutely, Chris. People can talk about their "right" to boo players all they want. I'm not going to tell them they don't have rights.

But I have rights too, and in this thread, I am exercising my right to say that those who booed Bobby Jenks are foolish.