PDA

View Full Version : Thank You KW and Ozzie


TomBradley72
07-21-2009, 10:52 AM
I've been a fan for 38 years....it's mid July, we're 1 game out of 1st place, we have a good mix of veterans and young talent (which between the major league club and the minors, might be the best group of prospects since I became a fan), we have a core of veterans (PK,AJ,Thome,JD) who are having solid years and are great guys, surrounded by rookies (Bacon, Getz, Poreda) who look like the real deal, a good 4 man rotation and a solid closer. The ballpark is in great shape.

For someone who's endured B.B. Richard, Nyls Nyman, astro turf infield, Terry Bevington, etc.....it's still exciting to legitimately be in the hunt in July. I give Ozzie/KW a lot of credit for pulling off "retooling" while staying a contender.

To me, any time July-September is filled with meaningful games with players that I like...it's a gift...and a ton of fun.

Thanks KW, thanks Ozzie.

white sox bill
07-21-2009, 10:59 AM
Great post, even greater point. There waaaaayyyy too much pessimism around this site. To me, the glass is always half full :gulp:

voodoochile
07-21-2009, 11:12 AM
Was trying to think of a good way to start a positive thread. This works well.

I agree, August is coming and this team is right in the thick of the ALC race with the chance to develop into a serious powerhouse depending on TCQ and how well the starting pitching holds up (as usual).

The lineup is as deep and balanced as I can recall in a long time, with several threats to steal, plenty of speed and lots of power.

The journey continues for the Sox and for Sox fans in 2009 which is WAY better than a bunch of other teams can claim.

HomeFish
07-21-2009, 11:14 AM
I think you're stretching it when you call Getz the "real deal".

But yeah, there have been worse times to be a Sox fan.

cws05champ
07-21-2009, 11:18 AM
I think you're stretching it when you call Getz the "real deal".

But yeah, there have been worse times to be a Sox fan.

...and that's saying something coming from Homefish!!!

Noneck
07-21-2009, 11:20 AM
I really enjoy having meaningful baseball to follow in the summer months. 2007 was not a good summer.

But let us all remember that since division play began, the majority of teams should still be the hunt at this stage of the year. I will save my gratitude till mid September.

WhiteSoxFTW
07-21-2009, 11:24 AM
I think you're stretching it when you call Getz the "real deal".

But yeah, there have been worse times to be a Sox fan.

I really don't think it's much of a stretch. I really like Getz and he continues to improve. I think down the stretch, he will really be a big help to this ballclub. And, I really enjoy watching Getz and Beckham hit right after one another in the order.

TomBradley72
07-21-2009, 11:25 AM
I think you're stretching it when you call Getz the "real deal".

But yeah, there have been worse times to be a Sox fan.

You might be right...but he's a rookie hitting .264, .288 over the past 30 days, on pace for ~25 SBs....in my time as a fan....rookie 2nd baseman playing at that level have been rare. He's not Nellie Fox....but I think he's a legitimate major league 2nd baseman.

TomBradley72
07-21-2009, 11:31 AM
I really enjoy having meaningful baseball to follow in the summer months. 2007 was not a good summer.

But let us all remember that since division play began, the majority of teams should still be the hunt at this stage of the year. I will save my gratitude till mid September.

We're closer to a playoff spot than 2/3's of the league...it's not like we're hanging around 6-7 games out of 1st or the Wild Card.

SoxGirl4Life
07-21-2009, 11:34 AM
Thank you for this. I, too, am having a ball enjoying this team play! Good times! :bandance:

hawkjt
07-21-2009, 11:35 AM
You might be right...but he's a rookie hitting .264, .288 over the past 30 days, on pace for ~25 SBs....in my time as a fan....rookie 2nd baseman playing at that level have been rare. He's not Nellie Fox....but I think he's a legitimate major league 2nd baseman.


Last 13 games that Getz has started he is hitting .414(19/46)..on base .480(24/50)....he is looking like the real deal since the last week in June,anyway.

Overall, I definitely echo the sentiments here. The early part of the season when the Sox could not buy a hit with RISP seems like a distant memory now. Sox are 2nd in the league in that all-important stat? Awesome.
I love how much faster the Sox have become almost overnite.
I love how much more contact they are making at the plate now with Gordo,Getz,Pods and Alexei all doing their thing.

Since the lowpoint after the 4-8 homestand, the offense has been wonderful.

The list of guys who I really anticipate hitting now:
Pods
JD
PK
Carlos
Gordo

others who are almost must-see
Alexei
Thome
AJ
Getz

Gee, that is everybody in the everyday lineup,isn't it? Yes, it is a good time to be a Sox fan. Enjoy it.

Noneck
07-21-2009, 11:42 AM
We're closer to a playoff spot than 2/3's of the league...it's not like we're hanging around 6-7 games out of 1st or the Wild Card.
Yes we are also fortunate and I am thankful for the Sox being in the weakest division in baseball. But that doesn't help for being in the hunt for the extra slot.

LITTLE NELL
07-21-2009, 11:43 AM
Became a Sox fan in the early 50s and I'd say that after the 51 to 67 teams and since 2000 this is the best stretch of contending teams that we have had (except for 07). And of course nothing can top winning a WS like we did in 05. Its feels good when your team is in contention just about every year, so Kenny and Ozzie keep it up!!

Moses_Scurry
07-21-2009, 11:45 AM
As a fan whose fandom was formulated during the Fregosi years (Go Tim Hulett!!! Go Freddy Manrique!!!), I agree with the original post 100%.

WhiteSoxFTW
07-21-2009, 11:46 AM
You might be right...but he's a rookie hitting .264, .288 over the past 30 days, on pace for ~25 SBs....in my time as a fan....rookie 2nd baseman playing at that level have been rare. He's not Nellie Fox....but I think he's a legitimate major league 2nd baseman.

I definitely think he is a major league 2nd baseman...unfortunately, long term, he may not be the WHITE SOX starting 2B. Beckham projects to play SS, and I think Alexei should move back to 2B next year. I think Getz is too good to be a backup for Alexei. That means that the White Sox should trade him in the offseason if those moves occur.

Noneck
07-21-2009, 11:46 AM
Became a Sox fan in the early 50s and I'd say that after the 51 to 67 teams and since 2000 this is the best stretch of contending teams that we have had (except for 07). And of course nothing can top winning a WS like we did in 05. Its feels good when your team is in contention just about every year, so Kenny and Ozzie keep it up!!

I believe if divisional play was in effect in our early years, we would have had quite a streak also.

hawkjt
07-21-2009, 11:46 AM
Yes we are also fortunate and I am thankful for the Sox being in the weakest division in baseball. But that doesn't help for being in the hunt for the extra slot.


Sorry, this does not wash.
Sox,Twins and Tiger all had their way with Cubs,Brewers,Cards,and Dodgers,right?

NL Central is the king of Weak divisions.

WhiteSoxFTW
07-21-2009, 11:49 AM
Yes we are also fortunate and I am thankful for the Sox being in the weakest division in baseball. But that doesn't help for being in the hunt for the extra slot.

How is this the weakest division in baseball? As a whole the American League is much better than the National League. You put the National League Central teams in our league and none of them have as good of records as they have. The Cardinals and the Brewers are not that great. The central is thought of as the weakest division in the NL, and in my mind, the weakest in the MLB.

Noneck
07-21-2009, 11:49 AM
Sorry, this does not wash.
Sox,Twins and Tiger all had their way with Cubs,Brewers,Cards,and Dodgers,right?

NL Central is the king of Weak divisions.

Close, really cant shine a flashlight between the two.

BTW: I didnt say which teams were better, I was speaking of the division itself.

voodoochile
07-21-2009, 11:53 AM
I definitely think he is a major league 2nd baseman...unfortunately, long term, he may not be the WHITE SOX starting 2B. Beckham projects to play SS, and I think Alexei should move back to 2B next year. I think Getz is too good to be a backup for Alexei. That means that the White Sox should trade him in the offseason if those moves occur.

Depends on how the Sox want to spend their money. Finding a 3B who can hit as well as Beckham seems to have the potential to hit will cost some coin. If the Sox think Beckham can become a solid defensive 3B given time to get comfortable (he has still played less than 60 games total at 3B in his life) then they may deem Getz acceptable as the 2B since he will cost so little money next year. That frees them up to offer more money to a legit CF/SP. They are going to have to give Bobby a raise too and figure out what to do with DH.

Making the switch which would force them to spend money on the IF next year is probably not high on the priority list.

jabrch
07-21-2009, 11:57 AM
That means that the White Sox should trade him in the offseason if those moves occur.

I have no problem with this if we get good value for him. I also have no problem with him being a bench player. I also have no problem with him staying at 2B if Gordon becomes a 3B. I wouldn't rush to trade him unless someone has something equal or more value.

asindc
07-21-2009, 12:08 PM
Close, really cant shine a flashlight between the two.

BTW: I didnt say which teams were better, I was speaking of the division itself.

Top to bottom, the AL Central is significantly better than the NL Central. St. Louis would be no better than 3rd in the AL Central.

Kudos to the original poster. I hope everyone reads this thread because, frankly a few folks need a healthy dose of perspective every now then. This year, KW has pulled off one of his better jobs, IMO. The team significantly lowered payroll, necessitating the reliance on younger players. These younger players are learning how to play in the heat of a division race while trying to fit in on a veteran ballclub. KW has managed to retool on the fly without sacrificing the ability to contend, somewhat of a rarity. Most GMs choose one or the other, but not both.

palehozenychicty
07-21-2009, 12:16 PM
I definitely think he is a major league 2nd baseman...unfortunately, long term, he may not be the WHITE SOX starting 2B. Beckham projects to play SS, and I think Alexei should move back to 2B next year. I think Getz is too good to be a backup for Alexei. That means that the White Sox should trade him in the offseason if those moves occur.


Indeed. I always liked Getz from the start, and he was hated on for awhile. I would like his defense to improve, but he's been as advertised. A nice, gritty contact hitter with speed.

jabrch
07-21-2009, 12:20 PM
Nice post BTW...I agree this team give us much to look forward to both short term and moreso long term.

thedudeabides
07-21-2009, 12:27 PM
Top to bottom, the AL Central is significantly better than the NL Central. St. Louis would be no better than 3rd in the AL Central.

Kudos to the original poster. I hope everyone reads this thread because, frankly a few folks need a healthy dose of perspective every now then. This year, KW has pulled off one of his better jobs, IMO. The team significantly lowered payroll, necessitating the reliance on younger players. These younger players are learning how to play in the heat of a division race while trying to fit in on a veteran ballclub. KW has managed to retool on the fly without sacrificing the ability to contend, somewhat of a rarity. Most GMs choose one or the other, but not both.

Great post. Rebuilding on the fly isn't easy. I love the attitude that the front office has. They do not want to slash and rebuild. They want to win every year.

Kenny and Ozzie are the best management duo I have seen, as a Sox fan. I have full confidence in them, and they have rarely dissapointed.

I wasn't sure what to expect out of this team and I am very happy where they are at. They have been a solid, and fun team to watch the last month. And they can be in first place by the end of the day. :bandance:

There are so many haters around here lately(very trollish even), and I can't fully understand why. So, here's to Kenny and Ozzie! :gulp:

SoxGirl4Life
07-21-2009, 12:31 PM
Great post. Rebuilding on the fly isn't easy. I love the attitude that the front office has. They do not want to slash and rebuild. They want to win every year.

Kenny and Ozzie are the best management duo I have seen, as a Sox fan. I have full confidence in them, and they have rarely dissapointed.

I wasn't sure what to expect out of this team and I am very happy where they are at. They have been a solid, and fun team to watch the last month. And they can be in first place by the end of the day. :bandance:

There are so many haters around here lately(very trollish even), and I can't fully understand why. So, here's to Kenny and Ozzie! :gulp:

That's why I have about 100 people blocked. In game threads where the Sox are losing, its almost exclusively the people that i can't see. If we're winning, they're nowhere to be found. :dunno:

WhiteSoxFTW
07-21-2009, 12:40 PM
Depends on how the Sox want to spend their money. Finding a 3B who can hit as well as Beckham seems to have the potential to hit will cost some coin. If the Sox think Beckham can become a solid defensive 3B given time to get comfortable (he has still played less than 60 games total at 3B in his life) then they may deem Getz acceptable as the 2B since he will cost so little money next year. That frees them up to offer more money to a legit CF/SP. They are going to have to give Bobby a raise too and figure out what to do with DH.

Making the switch which would force them to spend money on the IF next year is probably not high on the priority list.

I think how Richard/Garcia turn out will determine if they are going to spend money on CF/SP or CF/3B. I think that Kenny wanted a power bat at 3B, and Fields had his shot. Fields wasn't a for avg. hitter when he played well a few years back. He was a HR hitter. I think Beckham is a an avg./double hitter that would fit in better in the middle infield in KW's system.

I have no problem with this if we get good value for him. I also have no problem with him being a bench player. I also have no problem with him staying at 2B if Gordon becomes a 3B. I wouldn't rush to trade him unless someone has something equal or more value.

I agree with that, if they really do keep him at 3B. I just am tired of seeing Alexei's mental errors at SS, and we all know Ozzie is. I really think they move Beckham to SS next year. And, while I would like to keep Getz in a White Sox uniform, I don't want to see him as a bench player...because he is too good for that. I think that he is very tradeable to a NL team in need of a speedy middle infielder. I'm sure we could get something we need in return.

kevingrt
07-21-2009, 12:52 PM
Thank you for this. I, too, am having a ball enjoying this team play! Good times! :bandance:

Same. This team is so damn fun to watch and cheer for. Last years team was a lot of fun too.

beasly213
07-21-2009, 01:01 PM
This team drives me crazy at times. Even more crazy than last years team and that is saying something. Although I do have to admit I'm enjoying the season and hoping the Sox are able to stay in it the rest of the year.

That being said...this team is hardly a great team or even a good one. They are an average team in a bad division which makes them appear to be good.

They have major flaws on defense, the bullpen is having some issues, we are still very slow on the bases and our 4/5 starters are question marks.

I'm amazed at what Ozzie has been able to do with this team and keep them in contention in this division. If anything I think this thread should be called "Thank you Ozzie" because all Kenny Williams did this off season was dump pay roll and not add anything in return.

WhiteSoxFTW
07-21-2009, 01:01 PM
Same. This team is so damn fun to watch and cheer for. Last years team was a lot of fun too.

I've had a lot of fun at the two games I went to this year. Granted, they were both winners. Also, I had my first ballpark churro the other day. :D:

spawn
07-21-2009, 01:12 PM
You might be right...but he's a rookie hitting .264, .288 over the past 30 days, on pace for ~25 SBs....in my time as a fan....rookie 2nd baseman playing at that level have been rare. He's not Nellie Fox....but I think he's a legitimate major league 2nd baseman.
I thought it was funny when he was struggling and people here wanted him gone. They seem to have forgotten the kid is playing in his first full season. He needs to adjust to the league, just as it will adjust to him.

I, too, am thankful to KW and Ozzie. I don't always agree with their decisions, but it's easy for me to armchaie GM/manage without having all of the details that went into their decisions. Thanks guys for keeping me invested in the season! :gulp:

JB98
07-21-2009, 01:14 PM
I'm pleasantly surprised the Sox are this close to the top of the division on July 21. KW and Ozzie deserve credit for that. They'll deserve even more credit if the club makes the playoffs in back-to-back years for the first time.

TDog
07-21-2009, 02:07 PM
Yes we are also fortunate and I am thankful for the Sox being in the weakest division in baseball. But that doesn't help for being in the hunt for the extra slot.

The original post was so great at capturing something I've been feeling that it is a shame we are now left to squabble over the responses. But as someone who believed the White Sox were in the league's worst division, if not the worst division in all of baseball, at the start of last season when such talk was heresy around here, I take exception to diminishing this team's current achievements by playing the weakest-division card.

The American League East is the only division in baseball this season that could be considered out of the running for the weakest division title. The West may be the strongest division in the National League.

Comparing wins and losses isn't fair with the unbalanced schedule. One thing I have never liked about the wild card is that it is indeed wild because wins for the Angels or Rangers don't compare with wins for the White Sox or (ugh) Twins. Moreover, I don't think any second place team should ever be allowed to compete for a championship regardless (although I'll be rooking for a White Sox vs. wild card Giants World Series). But I digress.

Younger White Sox fans are spoiled, and I don't know where they get the idea that being a White Sox fan is about winning or that Cubs fans are losers because they have followed a losing team all their lives. But for one glorious season, although fate exiled me to Alaska, I have followed a losing team all my life. This season is the sort of season I dreamt of when the White Sox were trading Luis Aparicio to make room for Bee Bee Richard. The 1977 season is celebrated as great season, although the Sox finished third, 13 games out of first. But a generation later the 2003 is considered a disaster.

This baseball season will end with 29 losers. The White Sox may be one of them again, as they have been every season but one since 1917. But if you can't enjoy a season with the White Sox in contention after the All-Star break, what's the point of being a fan?

jabrch
07-21-2009, 02:09 PM
this team is hardly a great team or even a good one.

I don't know how you can possibly say this isn't a good team. I'm ok with not calling it great. But good?



If anything I think this thread should be called "Thank you Ozzie" because all Kenny Williams did this off season was dump pay roll and not add anything in return.

Kenny improved the farm, while correctly picking where he could/needed to unload salary. He did a nice job. Flowers and Viciedo both look much better today than 2 months ago. I think we will see our farm system ranking jump this year - provided we don't use it to make a big acquisition.

voodoochile
07-21-2009, 02:13 PM
This team drives me crazy at times. Even more crazy than last years team and that is saying something. Although I do have to admit I'm enjoying the season and hoping the Sox are able to stay in it the rest of the year.

That being said...this team is hardly a great team or even a good one. They are an average team in a bad division which makes them appear to be good.

They have major flaws on defense, the bullpen is having some issues, we are still very slow on the bases and our 4/5 starters are question marks.

I'm amazed at what Ozzie has been able to do with this team and keep them in contention in this division. If anything I think this thread should be called "Thank you Ozzie" because all Kenny Williams did this off season was dump pay roll and not add anything in return.

I'd love to rip this post apart, but it's so filled with your obvious negative bias I don't even know where to begin...

:darkcloud:

jabrch
07-21-2009, 02:16 PM
This baseball season will end with 29 losers. The White Sox may be one of them again, as they have been every season but one since 1917. But if you can't enjoy a season with the White Sox in contention after the All-Star break, what's the point of being a fan?

I refuse to evaluate the success of a season based solely on WS wins. 29 teams are not losers. Any team making it to the post season accomplished something.

jabrch
07-21-2009, 02:18 PM
I'd love to rip this post apart, but it's so filled with your obvious negative bias I don't even know where to begin...

:darkcloud:


Start with "4/5 of our starters are question marks". That's a nice starting point.

Noneck
07-21-2009, 02:26 PM
The original post was so great at capturing something I've been feeling that it is a shame we are now left to squabble over the responses. But as someone who believed the White Sox were in the league's worst division, if not the worst division in all of baseball, at the start of last season when such talk was heresy around here, I take exception to diminishing this team's current achievements by playing the weakest-division card.

The American League East is the only division in baseball this season that could be considered out of the running for the weakest division title. The West may be the strongest division in the National League.

Comparing wins and losses isn't fair with the unbalanced schedule. One thing I have never liked about the wild card is that it is indeed wild because wins for the Angels or Rangers don't compare with wins for the White Sox or (ugh) Twins. Moreover, I don't think any second place team should ever be allowed to compete for a championship regardless (although I'll be rooking for a White Sox vs. wild card Giants World Series). But I digress.

Younger White Sox fans are spoiled, and I don't know where they get the idea that being a White Sox fan is about winning or that Cubs fans are losers because they have followed a losing team all their lives. But for one glorious season, although fate exiled me to Alaska, I have followed a losing team all my life. This season is the sort of season I dreamt of when the White Sox were trading Luis Aparicio to make room for Bee Bee Richard. The 1977 season is celebrated as great season, although the Sox finished third, 13 games out of first. But a generation later the 2003 is considered a disaster.

This baseball season will end with 29 losers. The White Sox may be one of them again, as they have been every season but one since 1917. But if you can't enjoy a season with the White Sox in contention after the All-Star break, what's the point of being a fan?

1st, I hope you read all posts and don't cherry pick because I never said I wasn't enjoying.


2nd, Divisional baseball would have made our youth enjoyable also.

thedudeabides
07-21-2009, 02:33 PM
The original post was so great at capturing something I've been feeling that it is a shame we are now left to squabble over the responses. But as someone who believed the White Sox were in the league's worst division, if not the worst division in all of baseball, at the start of last season when such talk was heresy around here, I take exception to diminishing this team's current achievements by playing the weakest-division card.

The American League East is the only division in baseball this season that could be considered out of the running for the weakest division title. The West may be the strongest division in the National League.

Comparing wins and losses isn't fair with the unbalanced schedule. One thing I have never liked about the wild card is that it is indeed wild because wins for the Angels or Rangers don't compare with wins for the White Sox or (ugh) Twins. Moreover, I don't think any second place team should ever be allowed to compete for a championship regardless (although I'll be rooking for a White Sox vs. wild card Giants World Series). But I digress.

Younger White Sox fans are spoiled, and I don't know where they get the idea that being a White Sox fan is about winning or that Cubs fans are losers because they have followed a losing team all their lives. But for one glorious season, although fate exiled me to Alaska, I have followed a losing team all my life. This season is the sort of season I dreamt of when the White Sox were trading Luis Aparicio to make room for Bee Bee Richard. The 1977 season is celebrated as great season, although the Sox finished third, 13 games out of first. But a generation later the 2003 is considered a disaster.

This baseball season will end with 29 losers. The White Sox may be one of them again, as they have been every season but one since 1917. But if you can't enjoy a season with the White Sox in contention after the All-Star break, what's the point of being a fan?

:clap:

TDog
07-21-2009, 02:43 PM
1st, I hope you read all posts and don't cherry pick because I never said I wasn't enjoying.


2nd, Divisional baseball would have made our youth enjoyable also.

I didn't mean to criticize your post, only that you consider the AL Central the weakest division in baseball. Every division, save one, is the weakest division in baseball this year.

As for divisional baseball in general, after it came into being in 1969, the White Sox didn't win a division until 1983. They contended in 1972 against one of the great teams of my lifetime. They contended in 1977, although the Sox played their way into oblivion in August and September. (When that fizzled, a friend complained to me about his about his fan frustrations saying he didn't want to wait another five years, and it turned out to be six.) They you have to go to the 1990s, the first half anyway. Then 2000 and a the current general manager regime, which has been so much more successful.

The pre-2005 mantra for Sox fans used to be "just once in my lifetime, that's all I ask." Now the Sox win a game to pull within a game of first on July 20, and the ensuing WSI game thread has to be roadhoued.

Noneck
07-21-2009, 02:49 PM
I didn't mean to criticize your post, only that you consider the AL Central the weakest division in baseball. Every division, save one, is the weakest division in baseball this year.

As for divisional baseball in general, after it came into being in 1969, the White Sox didn't win a division until 1983. They contended in 1972 against one of the great teams of my lifetime. They contended in 1977, although the Sox played their way into oblivion in August and September. (When that fizzled, a friend complained to me about his about his fan frustrations saying he didn't want to wait another five years, and it turned out to be six.) They you have to go to the 1990s, the first half anyway. Then 2000 and a the current general manager regime, which has been so much more successful.

The pre-2005 mantra for Sox fans used to be "just once in my lifetime, that's all I ask." Now the Sox win a game to pull within a game of first on July 20, and the ensuing WSI game thread has to be roadhoued.
Being the worst division is a subjective argument at this point, I listen and respect your view and others but still feel the AL central followed closely by NL central are the weakest.

When I said our youth, I was referring to pre 69, prior to divisional play.

beasly213
07-21-2009, 02:55 PM
Start with "4/5 of our starters are question marks". That's a nice starting point.

I meant our number 4 and 5 starters are questions marks not four fifths of the roation.

I'm not trying to be a dark cloud I'm trying to keep a level head about this team and not get too excited about a team that is four games over .500 not 14. This isn't Kansas City we're in the third biggest market in the country and we shouldn't applaud a mediocre team that was put together, when every year the goal should be to win a World Series and not maybe compete for the AL Central title.

Like I said I'm amazed at the job Ozzie has done and he makes me proud to be a White Sox fan with his effort put forth year in and year out.

I've been going to games since I was six years old and make it to the park 10-15 times a year. I've sat through awful teams and seasons like 1998 and mediocre teams like ones in 02 and 03, just like everyone else on WSI has.

I've kept a level head about this team all year. Not getting too high or too low at any point in the season.

I think this team is the favorite to win the AL central but I don't think they will come close to winning the World Series. I'll continue to support them all year and hope to god they prove me wrong.

oeo
07-21-2009, 03:02 PM
This team drives me crazy at times. Even more crazy than last years team and that is saying something.

No way. Last year's team was extremely easy to hate. Too much on-the-side behavior, and way too much inconsistency. This year's team took awhile to finally get going, but they have shown more consistency over the last month than the 2008 team did at any point.

They have major flaws on defense, the bullpen is having some issues, we are still very slow on the bases and our 4/5 starters are question marks.

The bullpen just started to have a couple of issues, but they have been solid all year. And we're probably middle of the pack on the base paths. The middle of the lineup is slow, but the top and bottom are fine. We're not nearly as dependent on the homerun as we were last year, and our 1-2, 7-8-9 can get things going on the bases. That's been a big part of our recent success.

jabrch
07-21-2009, 03:05 PM
I misunderstood you about the starters - sorry.

we're in the third biggest market in the country and we shouldn't applaud a mediocre team that was put together, when every year the goal should be to win a World Series and not maybe compete for the AL Central title.

You build a team to win games. If they win enough games to make it to the post season, they are by definition, good enough to win the WS. Lots of teams have won the WS who were not the #1 favorite team to do it. Once you get in, the odds even out quite a bit. They aren't 12%, but they aren't much off that either.

Like I said I'm amazed at the job Ozzie has done and he makes me proud to be a White Sox fan with his effort put forth year in and year out.

Credit goes to the players, the coaches and the front office. All have done their respective jobs.

I think this team is the favorite to win the AL central but I don't think they will come close to winning the World Series. I'll continue to support them all year and hope to god they prove me wrong.

Winning the AL Central IS close to winning the WS. It puts you 7 wins away from making the WS. That's awful close after 162.

TomBradley72
07-21-2009, 03:11 PM
I'm amazed at what Ozzie has been able to do with this team and keep them in contention in this division. If anything I think this thread should be called "Thank you Ozzie" because all Kenny Williams did this off season was dump pay roll and not add anything in return.

Well.....KW DID find TCM at SS when most people were laughing at him, he DID acquire TCQ in a great trade, he DID draft Beckham, he DID sign AJ, re-signed Dye and Buehrle in mid-2007 which raised some eyebrows, signed Pods off the scrap heap, acquired Danks for Brandon McCarthy, acquired Floyd for Garcia, acquired Contreras for Loaiza, signed Jenks off the scrap heap, and acquired Thornton for Borchard.

But other than that, you're right, KW has nothing to do with this year's team.

hawkjt
07-21-2009, 03:47 PM
hell, last year if Burls and Danks had been ready to pitch the first two games vs Tampa, the Sox could have won that series...and made the world series like the Rays.

This sounds like Dan Bernstein,who loves to say anything short of a World Series title is an abject failure, and at every point in the season Kenny needs to ask himself if this team will win the World Series and if he is not 100% sure of that, then scrap the whole team and start over.

Only 8 of 32 teams advance to the playoffs...like the 06 Cardinals who went 83-79 in the regular season and then took the WS Trophy home...

Win the divison, and you have a good chance.
Only 4 over .500? yes, but best record in AL the last month...trends matter in baseball.

thedudeabides
07-21-2009, 04:02 PM
hell, last year if Burls and Danks had been ready to pitch the first two games vs Tampa, the Sox could have won that series...and made the world series like the Rays.

This sounds like Dan Bernstein,who loves to say anything short of a World Series title is an abject failure, and at every point in the season Kenny needs to ask himself if this team will win the World Series and if he is not 100% sure of that, then scrap the whole team and start over.

Only 8 of 32 teams advance to the playoffs...like the 06 Cardinals who went 83-79 in the regular season and then took the WS Trophy home...

Win the divison, and you have a good chance.
Only 4 over .500? yes, but best record in AL the last month...trends matter in baseball.


For all the people who say this team is mediocre or isn't good, I'd like to hear their explanation for this. I would have agreed in April or May this was a mediocre team, without a high ceiling, but I think by the time September/October rolls around, this team can be as good as anybody.

KW has done a great job building this team as the season goes on. My only hope is they figure out a steady 5th starter, and hopefully acquire another outfielder.

Being in a weak division has helped the Sox overcome a slow start, it doesn't prevent them from doing damage in the playoffs.

beasly213
07-21-2009, 04:05 PM
Well.....KW DID find TCM at SS when most people were laughing at him, he DID acquire TCQ in a great trade, he DID draft Beckham, he DID sign AJ, re-signed Dye and Buehrle in mid-2007 which raised some eyebrows, signed Pods off the scrap heap, acquired Danks for Brandon McCarthy, acquired Floyd for Garcia, acquired Contreras for Loaiza, signed Jenks off the scrap heap, and acquired Thornton for Borchard.

But other than that, you're right, KW has nothing to do with this year's team.

I never said Kenny Williams was a bad GM. I said he didn't do anything to improve a team that won the AL central last year by one game and it took an extra game to do it.

TDog
07-21-2009, 04:06 PM
Being the worst division is a subjective argument at this point, I listen and respect your view and others but still feel the AL central followed closely by NL central are the weakest.

When I said our youth, I was referring to pre 69, prior to divisional play.

You are a bit older than I am. I came of age as a Sox fan in 1969 and 1970. I turned 7 in 1964, which probably was a big year that you would have liked to have seen divisional play. And 1957, but that was the year of my birth in California. In 1967, of course, the Sox finished in fourth place in a 10-team league despite not being eliminated until the last weekend of the seson, but I see that not having to beat the Yankees pre-1965 would have been a blessing. Too bad the Sox weren't in the AL East in 1972.

At the same time, the 1959 White Sox didn't have to beat the Indians in a best of five series after finishing in first to go to the World Series. And having the league's best record in 2000 didn't put them anywhere near the World Series, eiven if they made the ALDS and ALCS seem like a formality in 2005.

But I guess I'm living n the past, smiling whenever I think about 2005.

Carolina Kenny
07-21-2009, 04:12 PM
I've been a fan for 38 years....it's mid July, we're 1 game out of 1st place, we have a good mix of veterans and young talent (which between the major league club and the minors, might be the best group of prospects since I became a fan), we have a core of veterans (PK,AJ,Thome,JD) who are having solid years and are great guys, surrounded by rookies (Bacon, Getz, Poreda) who look like the real deal, a good 4 man rotation and a solid closer. The ballpark is in great shape.

For someone who's endured B.B. Richard, Nyls Nyman, astro turf infield, Terry Bevington, etc.....it's still exciting to legitimately be in the hunt in July. I give Ozzie/KW a lot of credit for pulling off "retooling" while staying a contender.

To me, any time July-September is filled with meaningful games with players that I like...it's a gift...and a ton of fun.

Thanks KW, thanks Ozzie.

As Smokey Burgess (Robinson) sang, " I second that emotion."

cheezheadsoxfan
07-21-2009, 04:13 PM
The original post was so great at capturing something I've been feeling that it is a shame we are now left to squabble over the responses. But as someone who believed the White Sox were in the league's worst division, if not the worst division in all of baseball, at the start of last season when such talk was heresy around here, I take exception to diminishing this team's current achievements by playing the weakest-division card.

The American League East is the only division in baseball this season that could be considered out of the running for the weakest division title. The West may be the strongest division in the National League.

Comparing wins and losses isn't fair with the unbalanced schedule. One thing I have never liked about the wild card is that it is indeed wild because wins for the Angels or Rangers don't compare with wins for the White Sox or (ugh) Twins. Moreover, I don't think any second place team should ever be allowed to compete for a championship regardless (although I'll be rooking for a White Sox vs. wild card Giants World Series). But I digress.

Younger White Sox fans are spoiled, and I don't know where they get the idea that being a White Sox fan is about winning or that Cubs fans are losers because they have followed a losing team all their lives. But for one glorious season, although fate exiled me to Alaska, I have followed a losing team all my life. This season is the sort of season I dreamt of when the White Sox were trading Luis Aparicio to make room for Bee Bee Richard. The 1977 season is celebrated as great season, although the Sox finished third, 13 games out of first. But a generation later the 2003 is considered a disaster.

This baseball season will end with 29 losers. The White Sox may be one of them again, as they have been every season but one since 1917. But if you can't enjoy a season with the White Sox in contention after the All-Star break, what's the point of being a fan?

Very well put. I'm one of the older fans as well and if someone told me there would be a time when we would be in contention for the better part of ten years I would have asked what he was smoking. This is great fun.:bandance:

Noneck
07-21-2009, 04:16 PM
You are a bit older than I am. I came of age as a Sox fan in 1969 and 1970. I turned 7 in 1964, which probably was a big year that you would have liked to have seen divisional play. And 1957, but that was the year of my birth in California. In 1967, of course, the Sox finished in fourth place in a 10-team league despite not being eliminated until the last weekend of the seson, but I see that not having to beat the Yankees pre-1965 would have been a blessing. Too bad the Sox weren't in the AL East in 1972.

At the same time, the 1959 White Sox didn't have to beat the Indians in a best of five series after finishing in first to go to the World Series. And having the league's best record in 2000 didn't put them anywhere near the World Series, eiven if they made the ALDS and ALCS seem like a formality in 2005.

But I guess I'm living n the past, smiling whenever I think about 2005.
Well from 60-67 (My youth but would go even further back)The Sox were no worst than 4th with 3 2nd place finishes. I bet that run would have been better than the one they are currently on regarding having interest with divisional play. But as I smile, You are right, 05 does take the cake.

WhiteSoxJunkie
07-21-2009, 05:15 PM
You might be right...but he's a rookie hitting .264, .288 over the past 30 days, on pace for ~25 SBs....in my time as a fan....rookie 2nd baseman playing at that level have been rare. He's not Nellie Fox....but I think he's a legitimate major league 2nd baseman.

He is definitely developing into a legitimate starting 2nd baseman. He leads AL rookies in hits and doubles, and has great range.

wassagstdu
07-21-2009, 05:57 PM
This team is just great fun now that they are showing more of the balance that Ozzie has struggled to establish. I can't recall a team that was so interesting top to bottom. Interesting is not always enjoyable, of course. I was shouting at Jenks through my TV last night, but that 3-2 slider was just one of those things that reminds you why you watch baseball.

Win or lose, it is clear that the trend is up, and that makes it all palatable.

SoxNation05
07-21-2009, 05:59 PM
If we contend for the rest of the year this season has to be looked at as a huuuuuuuuuuuuuge success.

Domeshot17
07-21-2009, 06:06 PM
I have always had the mindest that I don't consider first round playoff exists success. I just have a bad feeling we might be headed there again. I really think we need to add someone to the top of the rotation to compete, as I do not like how Buehrle matches up with the better number 1s in the AL.

EuroSox35
07-21-2009, 06:36 PM
You guys sure love a loser's mentality. Ozzie and Kenny need to thank the sky for competing in an easy division. I used to be Kenny's biggest fan (and looking at the archives here, you used to have to completely insult him to fit in, and that starts from the mods), but a few moves have made me question him over the years. He has still taken some gambles and won, but I don't think he has done enough.

Let's be honest, the Sox have also been very lucky. Lucky that guys like Buehrle and Konerko exceeded minor league expectations and continue to perform. Lucky that Jermaine Dye didn't take the higher offer (from I think Texas) in 05, and even then, there is 0 chance KW expected this production from him. Lucky that El Duque demanded to be put in the game in the ALDS. Lucky that AJ Pierzynski had such a terrible reputation that no one else wanted him. Now I know every team has and needs luck, but let's look at things in perspective

This last offseason was crap, don't give me stuff about the 'retooling the farm system'. So will we now spin 2007 into a genius plan to be so terrible so we'd get Beckham? When people used to be mad about trading prospects, people used to say 'please, the goal is 100% to make the current squad as strong as possible', and now all of a sudden it's turned around. Being negative for the sake of it is not good, but that's not what people do, these are legit concerns. But agreeing with everything for the sake of it? That's a different story (though the general opinion of players does take a complete 180 if they are traded away). BTW, our ridiculous attempt at replacing a starter will likely result in a loss tonight and possibly being back to 2GB. I'll be the happiest guy in the city if the opposite happens, but I'm realistic.

EuroSox35
07-21-2009, 06:39 PM
Oh, and I do want to add, I will thank the players like Konerko, Buehrle, Dye, etc who exceeded expectations and continue to get it done on the fieldBeing the worst division is a subjective argument at this point, I listen and respect your view and others but still feel the AL central followed closely by NL central are the weakest.

When I said our youth, I was referring to pre 69, prior to divisional play.

It's easily the worst division in the AL, but definitely not in baseball, but that doesn't matter too much to us. There is no doubt the NL is weaker and their bottom feeders are much worse than our bottom feeders. Even though our record would make us much closer to their wild card, it's not even a fair comparison because their records should still be adjusted for being in a weaker league

fram40
07-21-2009, 06:42 PM
I never said Kenny Williams was a bad GM. I said he didn't do anything to improve a team that won the AL central last year by one game and it took an extra game to do it.


I think KW did quite a lot - addition by subtraction. He dumped a crappy shortstop, a SP who could not win big games, and a clubhouse headcase. He improved the backup catcher - twice. Despite all the complaints, the bullpen is good and deep. I agree with Hawk - bullpens win pennants. And the Sox have a very good bullpen - one of the best in the league.

KW opened up positions for youth and speed. While the youth has looked shaky at times, I have total confidence that they are ready for a pennat race. He had enough depth in the minors that when the new third baseman failed, a phenom ready to replace him was called up. Bacon looks to be the real deal and will play a major role as this team makes the run I expect it to make.

One poster mentioned crappy defense - I think everybody agrees that the infield defense has been suspect, at best. But isn't that to be expected of young players? I think they will only get better as they get more experience. Probably not gold glove defense - but much less likely to make mental errors that lose games.

If this team can win the division - hey, I think they have a real chance to make some noise. They have 3 quality starters, a very good bullpen, experienced players, power, speed on the basepaths, and an ability to maunufacture some runs

TomBradley72
07-21-2009, 06:49 PM
You guys sure love a loser's mentality. Ozzie and Kenny need to thank the sky for competing in an easy division. I used to be Kenny's biggest fan (and looking at the archives here, you used to have to completely insult him to fit in, and that starts from the mods), but a few moves have made me question him over the years. He has still taken some gambles and won, but I don't think he has done enough.

Let's be honest, the Sox have also been very lucky. Lucky that guys like Buehrle and Konerko exceeded minor league expectations and continue to perform. Lucky that Jermaine Dye didn't take the higher offer (from I think Texas) in 05, and even then, there is 0 chance KW expected this production from him. Lucky that El Duque demanded to be put in the game in the ALDS. Lucky that AJ Pierzynski had such a terrible reputation that no one else wanted him. Now I know every team has and needs luck, but let's look at things in perspective

This last offseason was crap, don't give me stuff about the 'retooling the farm system'. So will we now spin 2007 into a genius plan to be so terrible so we'd get Beckham? When people used to be mad about trading prospects, people used to say 'please, the goal is 100% to make the current squad as strong as possible', and now all of a sudden it's turned around. Being negative for the sake of it is not good, but that's not what people do, these are legit concerns. But agreeing with everything for the sake of it? That's a different story (though the general opinion of players does take a complete 180 if they are traded away). BTW, our ridiculous attempt at replacing a starter will likely result in a loss tonight and possibly being back to 2GB. I'll be the happiest guy in the city if the opposite happens, but I'm realistic.

Great argument...every mistake was KW's fault, every positive move was "luck". KW built this roster....made the trades/drafts/fa signings that have resulted in our team being 1 game out of 1st place in mid-July, so he deserves the credit the same way he deserved the blame for 2007.

Did any other GM pursue TCQ? TCM? Pods? Danks? Floyd? Contreras? Jenks? Thome?PK? Dye? Geez....no one is saying we're the 1927 Yankees (who got LUCKY that the Red Sox owner needed cash and unloaded Babe Ruth)...but for some of us who have followed this team for decades...we see a summer of following a contending team as a gift to be appreciated.
If you think that's a "loser mentality"...I'll take it. Baseball is fun for me, not real life, if I can't have fun with this year's White Sox, what's the point of being a fan? Especially when it's been even rarer for us to contend with 2 rookies in the starting line up (ala 1983).

TomBradley72
07-21-2009, 06:53 PM
Let's be honest, the Sox have also been very lucky. Lucky that guys like Buehrle and Konerko exceeded minor league expectations and continue to perform.

Hangar....is that you? The absolute, most ridiculous post I have ever read on WSI.

gobears1987
07-21-2009, 07:08 PM
Hangar....is that you? The absolute, most ridiculous post I have ever read on WSI.
He doesn't post enough media conspiracy threads to be Hangar.

TDog
07-21-2009, 07:17 PM
... Lucky that guys like Buehrle and Konerko exceeded minor league expectations and continue to perform. ...

Did you forgot the teal? Did you assume that such a poor grasp on the realities of baseball would make your parody of a dark-cloud obvious?

What I pulled out is the most obvious evidence that you can't be serious, or at least authoritative. Paul Konerko was a first-round draft pick for the Dodgers, selected in the top half of the 1994 draft. He had big power numbers in the minors (although he had problems defensively at catcher and was moved to third, then first, also playing some outfield) and was pegged by the Dodgers as a future hitting star. The Dodgers gave up on him when he didn't immediately adapt to the National League. The Reds thought they found a future star in a July deal for an aging reliever, but needed a centerfielder more and traded Konerko to the White Sox for Mike Cameron.

Mark Buehrle wasn't heavily scouted and the White Sox picked him up in the 38th round in 1998. But he was very impressive as a minor leaguer and was called up in July 2000 after beginning the season in Birmingham, going 8-4 with a 2.28 ERA in his first season of AA ball. By comparison, Buehrle's best full-season major league ERA was 3.12 in 2005, when he finished his season with his first major league save.

I caught it. Funny stuff.

hawkjt
07-21-2009, 07:43 PM
Well, I guess I will then accept the old adage...

''I'd rather be lucky than good''

or

''Luck is simply the residue of design''

or

''The harder Kenny works, the luckier he gets''

asindc
07-21-2009, 10:22 PM
You guys sure love a loser's mentality. Ozzie and Kenny need to thank the sky for competing in an easy division. I used to be Kenny's biggest fan (and looking at the archives here, you used to have to completely insult him to fit in, and that starts from the mods), but a few moves have made me question him over the years. He has still taken some gambles and won, but I don't think he has done enough.

Let's be honest, the Sox have also been very lucky. Lucky that guys like Buehrle and Konerko exceeded minor league expectations and continue to perform. Lucky that Jermaine Dye didn't take the higher offer (from I think Texas) in 05, and even then, there is 0 chance KW expected this production from him. Lucky that El Duque demanded to be put in the game in the ALDS. Lucky that AJ Pierzynski had such a terrible reputation that no one else wanted him. Now I know every team has and needs luck, but let's look at things in perspective

This last offseason was crap, don't give me stuff about the 'retooling the farm system'. So will we now spin 2007 into a genius plan to be so terrible so we'd get Beckham? When people used to be mad about trading prospects, people used to say 'please, the goal is 100% to make the current squad as strong as possible', and now all of a sudden it's turned around. Being negative for the sake of it is not good, but that's not what people do, these are legit concerns. But agreeing with everything for the sake of it? That's a different story (though the general opinion of players does take a complete 180 if they are traded away). BTW, our ridiculous attempt at replacing a starter will likely result in a loss tonight and possibly being back to 2GB. I'll be the happiest guy in the city if the opposite happens, but I'm realistic.

Is there an anti-POTW?