PDA

View Full Version : Aaron Harang?


DVsoxfan
07-19-2009, 12:49 PM
Hal McCoy of the Dayton News says that either Aaron Harang or Bronson Arroyo could be traded before the deadline. I'm a big Harang fan, he's got 6 quality starts since May 25, but gets absolutely no run support in Cinci. I would love for the Sox to get him. But Poreda would most likely have to be involved, and I don't know that I'd trade him for Harang. Thoughts?

http://www.daytondailynews.com/dayton-sports/cincinnati-reds/ask-hal-harang-arroyo-could-be-trade-bait-210933.html?cxtype=rss_reds

Marqhead
07-19-2009, 01:01 PM
$12.5 in 2010 and a club option for $12.75 in 2011.

He's an innings eater, and a strikeout machine. The Reds have been trade partners with the Sox in the past. I would love him on our team, but of course it depends what the cost is.

Domeshot17
07-19-2009, 01:12 PM
Poreda may need to be involved, but I doubt it. I would guess the Reds would want a similiar haul the sox got to Javy, but I suspect no salary back+Richard+ B specs could be possible

CWSpalehoseCWS
07-19-2009, 04:34 PM
He's better than Richard is, and I've always liked him, but like everyone else said it depends on the asking price.

Tragg
07-19-2009, 05:29 PM
Poreda may need to be involved, but I doubt it. I would guess the Reds would want a similiar haul the sox got to Javy,
That "haul" would be one really good A ball prospect, a non-descript A Ball prospect and Lillibridge. Plus they'd have to kick Masset or some other reliever back to us.
In short, one top prospect.

kittle42
07-19-2009, 05:45 PM
I know I am beating a dead horse, but it would be nice to have Javy.

...
07-19-2009, 05:51 PM
That "haul" would be one really good A ball prospect, a non-descript A Ball prospect and Lillibridge. Plus they'd have to kick Masset or some other reliever back to us.
In short, one top prospect.

Don't discount Santos Rodriguez or 07 first round pick out of HS Jon Gilmore. You sure are ****ing negative.

WSox597
07-19-2009, 07:01 PM
I know I am beating a dead horse, but it would be nice to have Javy.

Until the playoffs, if the Sox make them.

Or in any "big" game leading up to the playoffs.

munchman33
07-19-2009, 07:28 PM
I know I am beating a dead horse, but it would be nice to have Javy.

This is more than beating a dead horse. It's ignorance of the facts. We weren't keeping Javy without trading away Dye, Konerko, or Thome. The last two weren't getting us anything in return. And the first would make us not nearly as good a team.

Tragg
07-19-2009, 08:23 PM
Don't discount Santos Rodriguez or 07 first round pick out of HS Jon Gilmore. You sure are ****ing negative.
Yes, I did omit Rodriguez- thanks for the correction. However, we got 3 A ball prospects. Testament to the scouting that one is in AAA already.
As for the rest of the drivel, let me know when I go around bitching about other people's opinions, the bullpen, Richard, Poreda.
Do I disagree with the "conventional wisdom" around here on trades? Yes. And I likely will continue to do so. So you'll have plenty of my posts to complain about.

Frater Perdurabo
07-19-2009, 08:27 PM
I know I am beating a dead horse, but it would be nice to have Javy.

May I borrow your bat? I'd like to take a swing at that dead horse, too.

kittle42
07-20-2009, 02:16 AM
This is more than beating a dead horse. It's ignorance of the facts. We weren't keeping Javy without trading away Dye, Konerko, or Thome. The last two weren't getting us anything in return. And the first would make us not nearly as good a team.

Yes, yes, I forgot about the missing 50 cents.

WhiteSoxFan84
07-20-2009, 02:25 AM
I like the guy, a lot. But not a big difference between him and Contreras. And there is no way I see us paying Contreras (or Harang) $25mill+ over the next 2 seasons. Granted, Harang is 31 and Contreras could be 51, but their numbers have been very similar.

Contreras...4.56 ERA.. 206 IP/season... 150 K/season... 1.35 WHIP.... .548 win%
Harang......4.24 ERA...210 IP/season... 176 K/season.... 1.32 WHIP.... .493 win%

Factor in that Jose has been in the AL his whole career and that Aaron has been in the NL his whole career and the ERA and K/season differences disappear.

I would not invest that much in Harang.

munchman33
07-20-2009, 07:22 AM
Yes, yes, I forgot about the missing 50 cents.

Well, whether or not you want to marginalize the need for a reduction in payroll, it's not like it was your call. It's something that was going to happen no matter what. Working in that framework, Javy isn't possible without trading Dye. And every time you complain that Javy should be here, you're saying Dye shouldn't. And that's completely asinine.

Kenny made the right call.

tm1119
07-20-2009, 11:48 AM
I like the guy, a lot. But not a big difference between him and Contreras. And there is no way I see us paying Contreras (or Harang) $25mill+ over the next 2 seasons. Granted, Harang is 31 and Contreras could be 51, but their numbers have been very similar.

Contreras...4.56 ERA.. 206 IP/season... 150 K/season... 1.35 WHIP.... .548 win%
Harang......4.24 ERA...210 IP/season... 176 K/season.... 1.32 WHIP.... .493 win%

Factor in that Jose has been in the AL his whole career and that Aaron has been in the NL his whole career and the ERA and K/season differences disappear.

I would not invest that much in Harang.

I dont see how this is relevant at all. Contreras is a FA at the end of this year and Harang has 1 year + an option left after this year. Regardless, we still need another starter if we want to be a true competitor. Harang's contract really isnt that bad considering the market for SP's and how well he has performed of the past few years.
Not to mention Im not even sure where you decided to pull those #'s from. Jose hasnt been a reliable starter since 06. Harang has been incredibly consistent since 05, with last year being the only year he didnt throw 200+ innngs and have a sub 4 ERA.

Bobby Thigpen
07-20-2009, 03:06 PM
I have no idea where all this retro love for Javy comes from. Don't any of you remember him tanking EVERY time he had an opportunity to pitch a big game for the Sox?

He's great when there's no pressure, like Atlanta this year. He was terrible when the Sox needed him. That's not a guy I'd like to keep around.

kittle42
07-20-2009, 03:43 PM
I have no idea where all this retro love for Javy comes from. Don't any of you remember him tanking EVERY time he had an opportunity to pitch a big game for the Sox?

Hey, those midseason games against the KCs, Oaklands, and Pirates of the world count just as much in the standings.

The guy was going to give you 200+ innings and an ERA near 4 with 180+ Ks. Setting contract talk aside, that is a guy I'll always take, "mental midget" or not.

WhiteSoxFan84
07-21-2009, 10:07 PM
I dont see how this is relevant at all. Contreras is a FA at the end of this year and Harang has 1 year + an option left after this year. Regardless, we still need another starter if we want to be a true competitor. Harang's contract really isnt that bad considering the market for SP's and how well he has performed of the past few years.
Not to mention Im not even sure where you decided to pull those #'s from. Jose hasnt been a reliable starter since 06. Harang has been incredibly consistent since 05, with last year being the only year he didnt throw 200+ innngs and have a sub 4 ERA.

His 2009 #s so far are similar to last year and not his '05-'07 numbers. That's not a good sign at all. I'm not saying it would be a HORRIBLE move, but at the same time I'm saying it wouldn't be a good move at all. And you're right, Harang isn't a FA which means not only would we invest all that money in him but we'd also have to give up top prospects to get him.

No thanks.



As for those mention Javy, IMO, he's a "NL pitcher" and always will be. He just seems much more comfortable there.

Foulke You
07-22-2009, 02:59 PM
Hey, those midseason games against the KCs, Oaklands, and Pirates of the world count just as much in the standings.

The guy was going to give you 200+ innings and an ERA near 4 with 180+ Ks. Setting contract talk aside, that is a guy I'll always take, "mental midget" or not.
The problem is that you can't take the contract talk out of the Javy discussion. It can't be ignored that he was being paid like an ace and all he gave us was "innings eater" in low pressure games and "bed wetter" in high pressure games. The money we were paying for Javy is better spent elsewhere. The Sox cut down payroll this year due to lost ad revenue and lower season tickets due to the bad economy. Had they hung on to Javy and his $10 million + contract, they would have likely had to trade Jermaine Dye. Who would you rather have on this year's team?

Domeshot17
07-22-2009, 03:05 PM
The problem is that you can't take the contract talk out of the Javy discussion. It can't be ignored that he was being paid like an ace and all he gave us was "innings eater" in low pressure games and "bed wetter" in high pressure games. The money we were paying for Javy is better spent elsewhere. The Sox cut down payroll this year due to lost ad revenue and lower season tickets due to the bad economy. Had they hung on to Javy and his $10 million + contract, they would have likely had to trade Jermaine Dye. Who would you rather have on this year's team?

Aces do not make 11-12 mil

Aces make 15+ mil. 99% of them atleast

Find me one pitcher, who is not either still on arbitration or signed through his arby years, pitching like an ace making 11 per.

Javy was overpaid, but only by 2 or 3 mil a year.

I might take Javy over Jose for the same coin

Foulke You
07-22-2009, 03:34 PM
Aces do not make 11-12 mil

Aces make 15+ mil. 99% of them atleast

Find me one pitcher, who is not either still on arbitration or signed through his arby years, pitching like an ace making 11 per.

Javy was overpaid, but only by 2 or 3 mil a year.

I might take Javy over Jose for the same coin
Ok, let me re-phrase it, Javy was getting paid like a front end of the rotation starter and he performed like a #5 starter who wet the bed in big games. Here are some "non bed wettting" front end rotation guys that made money similar to Javy:

Josh Beckett - $10 million per year
Chris Carpenter- $12 million per year
Aaron Harang- $9 million per year
Erik Bedard- $7.75 million per year
Dan Haren- $11 million per year
Ted Lilly- $10 million per year
Gil Meche- $11 million per year
Mark Buehrle- $14 million per year
Roy Halladay- $13 million per year

If healthy, I'd take just about any of these guys over Javy. From this list, Buehrle, Halladay, and Haren are aces. The rest are #2 or #3 starters. The bottom line is that we would have had to shed his salary in other areas (Dye, Jenks, etc.) and it would have hurt the team way more than Javy's mediocre mentally weak pitching would have helped. I don't miss Javy's deer in the headlights expression one bit as baseballs flew out of the yard. The Javy ship has sailed already and it was a failure which is one reason why they punched his ticket out of town. I'll take my chances on developing a young pitcher or KW patching it with veterans like Freddy Garcia, or a trade for someone like Doug Davis, Harang, or others.

thedudeabides
07-22-2009, 05:14 PM
Aces do not make 11-12 mil

Aces make 15+ mil. 99% of them atleast

Find me one pitcher, who is not either still on arbitration or signed through his arby years, pitching like an ace making 11 per.

Javy was overpaid, but only by 2 or 3 mil a year.

I might take Javy over Jose for the same coin

Pitchers currently making $15+ million:
CC Sabathia (http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/players/profile?playerId=4553), NYY $23,000,000
Johan Santana (http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/players/profile?playerId=4280), NYM $22,916,667
Carlos Zambrano (http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/players/profile?playerId=4499), Cubs $18,300,000
Barry Zito (http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/players/profile?playerId=4233), SF $18,000,000
Jason Schmidt (http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/players/profile?playerId=3180), LAD $15,666,667

I see two aces. Javy is paid like a front line pitcher, not an innings eater.

Lip Man 1
07-22-2009, 06:07 PM
Foulke:

Just a point of clarification. According to sources as well as quoting Brooks Boyer directly, Sox season ticket sales this year were "steady" (direct quote) compared to last year.

They lost two ad sponsors this year, I don't know how much those sponsors were paying.

The Sox had the second largest payroll cut in MLB this year at over 22 million dollars.

There is a possibility of the Sox losing a "number" (direct quote / JR) of sponsors after this year due to expiring deals..again I don't know how much money that translates to.

To me they cut this season to get ready for a potential loss next season. If the team plays poorly in the second half of 09 I'd assume that season and individual ticket sales will be way off next season. Sox fans usually have a hard time paying for mediocrity.

Lip

Johnny Mostil
07-22-2009, 06:12 PM
I have no idea where all this retro love for Javy comes from. Don't any of you remember him tanking EVERY time he had an opportunity to pitch a big game for the Sox?

He's great when there's no pressure, like Atlanta this year. He was terrible when the Sox needed him. That's not a guy I'd like to keep around.

I've a Yankee-fan friend who loves to hate Javy. He has a point. In three post-season games with the Yanks, Javy had an ERA of about 10 and a WHIP of about 2 (or about what he did for the Sox against the Rays last year). Javy did manage to win one post-season game with the Yanks: the one in which the Yanks scored 19 runs. The next game he pitched in that ALCS was the seventh. He came in with 1 out, bases loaded, trailing 2-0 in the second--and, after two balls, gave up the slam to Damon that pretty much iced the game and series for the Red Sox.

Anyway, I'm not much on the point A, point B, and point C analogies, but I'd agree Javy may be OK for a point B team but definitely not for a team trying to get to point C (again).

WhiteSoxFan84
07-24-2009, 03:43 AM
Go tell the Braves that Javy is overpaid and they'll laugh at you.

Going back to some of the names listed earlier that make less than/around what Javy makes, if they were free agents to be like Javy was when he signed that deal with us and they signed new deals most of them would easily get $14m+.

He didn't fit in with the Sox or Yankees. He fit in well with Montreal and now with Atlanta. I honestly don't know how he did with Arizona (and quite frankly don't care enough to look it up) but I'm willing to guess that he did well. I'll say it again, he's a MUCH better fit in the NL. And as long as he continues to own the Cubs, more power to him.