PDA

View Full Version : Bullpen Concerns Anyone?


LoveYourSuit
07-18-2009, 05:41 PM
First of all, kudos to Kenny for being one step ahead and realizing the need for another arm when he went to get Pena.


But I'm a bit concerned at the in-effectiveness of the rest of the guys lately. I feel like this happens every year now with this bunch, July and August slumps.


Our bullpen IMO is the key to winning the central. It's the one aspect we are so much better than the Twins and the Tigers.

DirtySox
07-18-2009, 05:43 PM
Jenks and Linebrink make me nervous, and they have for a while. I'm confident in Thornton, Dotel, and would like to see more use of Pena and Poreda.

Chicken Dinner
07-18-2009, 05:44 PM
Definitely have some issues. I don't understand all the homers and inherited runners scored.

Tragg
07-18-2009, 07:32 PM
Not really.
It's a plus unit.

Sox
07-18-2009, 07:39 PM
MY blood runs cold everytime I hear that LineBrink is warming up. For some reason he makes me extremely nervous because you never know which Scott Linebrink is going in to pitch.:dunno:

Demps2
07-18-2009, 07:39 PM
First of all, kudos to Kenny for being one step ahead and realizing the need for another arm when he went to get Pena.


But I'm a bit concerned at the in-effectiveness of the rest of the guys lately. I feel like this happens every year now with this bunch, July and August slumps.


Our bullpen IMO is the key to winning the central. It's the one aspect we are so much better than the Twins and the Tigers.

we CANNOT afford any kind of slump from the pen. The starters aren't good enough this year, as they have the last couple of years (minus 07). Besides the pen, I do wonder how well Contreras will pitch down the stretch. Another concern is the amount of hits we are allowing. We have given up 10 plus hits two days in a row. If we keep pitching like this, there will be major consequences. Once we play teams that can hit as well as pitch (unlike BAL) the pitching has to step it up.

Demps2
07-18-2009, 07:41 PM
MY blood runs cold everytime I hear that LineBrink is warming up. For some reason he makes me extremely nervous because you never know which Scott Linebrink is going in to pitch.:dunno:

Linebrink is a guy who has struggled somewhat in second halves.

BadBobbyJenks
07-18-2009, 07:43 PM
Jenks
Thornton
Pena
Dotel
Linebrink

I will take those 5 against anyone in baseball other than maybe the Red Sox.

Daver
07-18-2009, 08:07 PM
Bullpen Concerns Anyone?

Only those with a tendency to over react would have them.

You know the type, the ones that take a bad week of starting pitching and project it into a huge problem based on nothing whatsoever.

LoveYourSuit
07-18-2009, 08:17 PM
Only those with a tendency to over react would have them.

You know the type, the ones that take a bad week of starting pitching and project it into a huge problem based on nothing whatsoever.


I am only speaking based on what we have seen lately, a bunch of bad. So I am a bit concerned.

The "over- reaction" will be determined once we get to the end of September and see the end result.

So "concern" is a valid arguement.

"Over - react" is a wait and see.

I love baseball.

drewcifer
07-18-2009, 08:19 PM
Definitely have some issues. I don't understand all the homers and inherited runners scored.

Bingo

Daver
07-18-2009, 08:23 PM
I am only speaking based on what we have seen lately, a bunch of bad. So I am a bit concerned.

The "over- reaction" will be determined once we get to the end of September and see the end result.

So "concern" is a valid arguement.

"Over - react" is a wait and see.

I love baseball.

I would think that you would be happy at the way this team is overachieving, instead of complaining about shortcomings.

LoveYourSuit
07-18-2009, 08:30 PM
I would think that you would be happy at the way this team is overachieving, instead of complaining about shortcomings.


I think it's a season within a season. Expectations are raised once you see the product develop in front of you and you see the potential of what guys can do. With what we are getting from Buehrle, Contreras, Dye, Paulie, Podsm Thome, Beckham ... the bar to me has been raised and this team should be capable of winning this year.

Tragg
07-18-2009, 08:42 PM
With what we are getting from Buehrle, Contreras, Dye, Paulie, Podsm Thome, Beckham ... the bar to me has been raised and this team should be capable of winning this year.
Because it's overachieved (Podsednik) and none of the elder statesmen have had an off-year, also over achieving in a macro sense.
We're right there, we're getting good starting pitching,and we have our shot. And we seem to be developing some talent to replace the current hitters.

guillensdisciple
07-18-2009, 08:51 PM
Jenks
Thornton
Pena
Dotel
Linebrink

I will take those 5 against anyone in baseball other than maybe the Red Sox.

Couldn't agree more. I think bullpens go in collective slumps, and we are seeing that right now with the Sox. They have done this for a month or so almost every year from what I remember, and I will wait this out so long as we play good baseball in other aspects of the game. This team can win the Central as it is presently constructed right now, and when everything clicks, this team can go further than that.

LoveYourSuit
07-18-2009, 09:00 PM
Couldn't agree more. I think bullpens go in collective slumps, and we are seeing that right now with the Sox. They have done this for a month or so almost every year from what I remember, and I will wait this out so long as we play good baseball in other aspects of the game. This team can win the Central as it is presently constructed right now, and when everything clicks, this team can go further than that.

I agree with you here.

But,
This might be that one season where we could not afford this to happen because of how bunched up this thing will be here with the two other teams (just like 2006). Margin for error is small here because of what happened earlier in the year. Last year we overcame the bullpen meltdown but keep in mind that we played so much better earlier in the year. Also, we were only competing with the Twins for the diivision.

The 2006 bullpen meltdown is what we don't want. We were battling 2 other teams then too. It greatly reduces your margin for error.

jabrch
07-18-2009, 09:23 PM
I would think that you would be happy at the way this team is overachieving, instead of complaining about shortcomings.

You'd be wrong...very wrong.

Some people, for some unknown reason, build themselves internet personalities around pissing and moaning about everything they don't like. Why you'd expect more than that out of them is beyond me.

LoveYourSuit
07-18-2009, 09:33 PM
You'd be wrong...very wrong.

Some people, for some unknown reason, build themselves internet personalities around pissing and moaning about everything they don't like. Why you'd expect more than that out of them is beyond me.


It's a message board for a reason. Opinions, concerns, etc

JB98
07-19-2009, 12:31 AM
I think the Sox have the best bullpen in the AL Central.

The back end of the starting rotation and the infield defense are my concerns. I'm not worried about the bullpen at all.

october23sp
07-19-2009, 12:33 AM
It's shaky at times, but for the most part it's pretty good. I think all bullpens will be shaky because if some of those relievers weren't shaky, they'd be starters.

jabrch
07-19-2009, 12:34 AM
I think the Sox have the best bullpen in the AL Central.

How many better pens are there in the AL? Boston and ?

Metalthrasher442
07-19-2009, 01:27 AM
Honestly this is a great bullpen IMO. Dotel and Thornton are two of the most lights out set up men in baseball. Those two will take the heat off of Linebrink while he sorts things out. Even though I have faith that he'll return to his greatness soon. Another plus is Poreda is doing well and is extremely fun to watch. And even one more positive is that Carrasco is awesome in any situation we throw at him.

The only time I get really nervous is when Jenks is warming up for a tight close situation. It doesn't look like he has it this year. I thought he would heat up, but I don't see it happening.

PhillipsBubba
07-19-2009, 11:56 AM
I'm wondering what the deal is with Linebrink but other than that, the bullpen is fine.

I also like the way Pena throws. He's a good addition.

PatK
07-19-2009, 04:03 PM
Only those with a tendency to over react would have them.

You know the type, the ones that take a bad week of starting pitching and project it into a huge problem based on nothing whatsoever.


Linebrink has been shaky since the second half last year.

He seems to only be able to excel when in the mop up role this year.

tsoxman
07-19-2009, 04:19 PM
First of all, kudos to Kenny for being one step ahead and realizing the need for another arm when he went to get Pena.


Even forgetting about today's awful performance, do you honestly believe Pena will make any significant contribution to this bullpen? His career stats epitomize mediocrity.

CWSpalehoseCWS
07-19-2009, 05:08 PM
Even forgetting about today's awful performance, do you honestly believe Pena will make any significant contribution to this bullpen? His career stats epitomize mediocrity.

So did Thornton's when we got him. You never know, maybe they saw something in Pena, and are trying to fix him. Give the guy a break, he's hardly been used so far.

Chicken Dinner
07-19-2009, 05:14 PM
So did Thornton's when we got him. You never know, maybe they saw something in Pena, and are trying to fix him. Give the guy a break, he's hardly been used so far.

:crossfingers:

BigP50
07-19-2009, 05:59 PM
right now i have a bad feeling when any member of the bullpen goes in.

Railsplitter
07-19-2009, 06:16 PM
right now i have a bad feeling when any member of the bullpen goes in.
So do I.

Dub25
07-19-2009, 06:21 PM
First of all, kudos to Kenny for being one step ahead and realizing the need for another arm when he went to get Pena.


But I'm a bit concerned at the in-effectiveness of the rest of the guys lately. I feel like this happens every year now with this bunch, July and August slumps.


Our bullpen IMO is the key to winning the central. It's the one aspect we are so much better than the Twins and the Tigers.

Before I even read the rest of these posts, I will say I did not like the Pena deal... even though I met him today with Beckham... but the bullpen has been shaky coming out of the break. I'll give them the 1st game but you would figure the rest would get it together after watching the 1st two games this weekend.

Dub25
07-19-2009, 06:22 PM
I would think that you would be happy at the way this team is overachieving, instead of complaining about shortcomings.


Are they overachieving more this year than last?

Dub25
07-19-2009, 06:25 PM
I'm wondering what the deal is with Linebrink but other than that, the bullpen is fine.

I also like the way Pena throws. He's a good addition.

Your posts and others make me wonder why people think Pena is a good addition. He was not very good in Arizona.

Dub25
07-19-2009, 06:26 PM
So did Thornton's when we got him. You never know, maybe they saw something in Pena, and are trying to fix him. Give the guy a break, he's hardly been used so far.

He's been used in mop up duty so far and has looked shaky at best.

TornLabrum
07-19-2009, 07:21 PM
Not exactly a stellar performance by Pena this afternoon.

Rohan
07-19-2009, 07:22 PM
Jenks
Thornton
Pena
Dotel
Linebrink

I will take those 5 against anyone in baseball other than maybe the Red Sox.

Hold on.. How can you not put our most consistent relief pitcher in this list? I think Carrasco certainly deserves to be penned near the top of that list.

soxfanreggie
07-19-2009, 11:23 PM
I think I'll always have "concerns" with the bullpen. It's one area that I can almost guarantee will always have a "weak" spot that I think needs tweaking. We don't have an unlimited budget for this area; therefore, I think there will always be a weak spot or two (or three). Sometimes I'm concerned because we have someone struggling. Others, I'm concerned when guys like Rick White (in the past) would come out to pitch.

dooda
07-20-2009, 09:50 AM
I'm concerned big time. Jenks imploded in Minnesota and again against Baltimore. His era is nearly 4. He is rarely having a 1,2,3 inning. I have never trusted Dotel in an important situation. Pena was acquired to "hold'em right there" and he's been awful.

Thankfully Thornton, D. J., and Poreda have been above average in their roles. Linebrink has been ok but not lights out.

I don't think Kenny needs to make another bullpen move, but the guys in the pen need to get thru this slump soon. The schedule is getting tougher the rest of the way.

UChicagoHP
07-20-2009, 10:08 AM
The only thing that makes me nervous is the 30lbs+ of "muscle" Jenks has gained since '07

BadBobbyJenks
07-20-2009, 03:12 PM
Hold on.. How can you not put our most consistent relief pitcher in this list? I think Carrasco certainly deserves to be penned near the top of that list.

Because he is the long man.

RedHeadPaleHoser
07-21-2009, 06:39 AM
Linebrink is a guy who has struggled somewhat in second halves.

Linebrink and Dotel truly make me nervous. Scott seems to not be able to locate. Dotel is a total wildcard; some games he's dead on with his pitches, other thimes it seems like he can't get comfortable.

Kudos to Thornton last night in inheriting the 8th inning mess left for him and pitching out of it.

dooda
07-21-2009, 07:15 AM
Jenks loads the bases again and got off the hook. This is the third time in 10 days he's gone bases loaded to get the third out. I hope this is an aberation, but it is starting to look like a trend. He's just not sharp. Maybe it's lack of work. He doesn't have that many appearances, but his pitch count per appearance is really up there. He hasn't blown a save for a while so maybe my nerves are just over raw. I hope so.

Frater Perdurabo
07-21-2009, 07:29 AM
Ranger had a great point on the postgame show last night; something that should be obvious but that a lot of people don't get; something with which I've agreed for a long time: all MLB bullpens are filled with crappy pitchers who aren't good enough to start, and every single reliever is going to have bad outings.

jabrch
07-21-2009, 07:35 AM
Ranger had a great point on the postgame show last night; something that should be obvious but that a lot of people don't get; something with which I've agreed for a long time: all MLB bullpens are filled with crappy pitchers who aren't good enough to start, and every single reliever is going to have bad outings.


That should be obvious to anyone who is a knowledgeable baseball fan. I get it that some people who don't follow the game only see an isolated outing - but the folks here are not ordinary common fans and should know better than to get riled up over wins.

TomBradley72
07-21-2009, 08:18 AM
Overall for the season...we're 9th in the AL in bullpen ERA, 12th in WHIP, 11th in OBA. I think this group may have been overrated a little bit earlier in the season...but overall I think they will kick it in when it counts. I have no worries about Jenks.

kittle42
07-21-2009, 08:20 AM
Overall for the season...we're 9th in the AL in bullpen ERA, 12th in WHIP, 11th in OBA. I think this group may have been overrated a little bit earlier in the season...but overall I think they will kick it in when it counts. I have no worries about Jenks.

Actually, that's surprisingly bad, especially the WHIP.

HomeFish
07-21-2009, 08:32 AM
I am more concerned about Clayton Richard. The bullpen can't blow a lead when he gives up 6 ER every start.

jdm2662
07-21-2009, 08:37 AM
Ranger had a great point on the postgame show last night; something that should be obvious but that a lot of people don't get; something with which I've agreed for a long time: all MLB bullpens are filled with crappy pitchers who aren't good enough to start, and every single reliever is going to have bad outings.

I've been saying for years that bullpen pitchers are a dime a dozen. Hell, we've seen many cases here. They are pitchers who aren't good enough to start or starters with injury history.

Cliff Pollite and Neil Cotts had career years in 2005. This board went up in smoke when the masses pointed this out. Well, they sucked royally in 2006, and were gone after that season. After breaking the save record and having two solid years before that, Bobby Thigpen was hardly a top notch closer. Obviously, you have your few franchise closers, but there is a reason why they are so few. Hell, the Sox had three in 2005... The Sox had a great bullpen in 2005 because they were not needed often...

ChicagoHoosier
07-21-2009, 08:50 AM
I like what other posts have pointed out. I'd call our bullpen above average and we probably won't lose any more games than the next team will lose.

My hope, and a stat I can't ever seem to find, is that we win more games when tied or losing going into the 7th inning than we lose when we're tied or ahead going into the 7th. Anywhere we can find that stat easily?

That often helps compare our bullpen to other teams in a very general sense.

KyWhiSoxFan
07-21-2009, 09:00 AM
I've been saying for years that bullpen pitchers are a dime a dozen. Hell, we've seen many cases here. They are pitchers who aren't good enough to start or starters with injury history.

Setup men in particular are plentiful, which is why I'm still puzzled on why you would give up a promising position player (Allen) for one of the first guys out of the pen (Pena) who is average for his position.

ms620
07-21-2009, 09:17 AM
Setup men in particular are plentiful, which is why I'm still puzzled on why you would give up a promising position player (Allen) for one of the first guys out of the pen (Pena) who is average for his position.

Keith Law from ESPN said that he spoke to some scouts who said that they did not think Brandon Allen would ever become an everday player. Obviously that is just one report and anything can happen, but atleast those scouts and Keith Law liked the trade from the Sox perspective...

jabrch
07-21-2009, 09:27 AM
Setup men in particular are plentiful, which is why I'm still puzzled on why you would give up a promising position player (Allen) for one of the first guys out of the pen (Pena) who is average for his position.


Setup men are no more plentiful than 1B. I think this has to do with being able to bolster the MLB squad by giving up someone who is unlikely to be irreplaceable at a position we project no MLB need for the next two years.

If Allen were a SS, 3B, C or a CF, we probably wouldn't have made that move. But he isn't. He's a 1B and we have a pretty good one who many hope is around for a long time. And if we ever do need another one, they are easy to find.

The only question is how good Allen will be. That's something we really can't answer.

slavko
07-21-2009, 09:35 AM
Linebrink and Dotel truly make me nervous. Scott seems to not be able to locate. Dotel is a total wildcard; some games he's dead on with his pitches, other thimes it seems like he can't get comfortable.

Kudos to Thornton last night in inheriting the 8th inning mess left for him and pitching out of it.

To be fair:The Rays ran themselves out of a run and Thornton got an out on his own. So one kudo is all I'll give him. (just joshing, kudos has no singular)

chisoxfanatic
07-21-2009, 09:40 AM
I just think Liney and Dotel should switch spots in the bullpen, because Liney really can't pitch under pressure. I know Dotel struggles at times in those spots, but I actually have more confidence in him.

stacksedwards
07-21-2009, 09:45 AM
Any talk about Bobby Jenks being ineffective is not logical. He is 22/24 in save opportunities and of his two blown saves we only lost one of the two games. So in the 24 chances he has had to close out games we have won 23 of them. Thats pretty damn good. Until he start lossing games he closes he is doing his job. Whether he comes in with a 3 run lead and gives up 2 runs and loads the bases or comes in and strikes the side out. A save is a save

thedudeabides
07-21-2009, 09:55 AM
Setup men are no more plentiful than 1B. I think this has to do with being able to bolster the MLB squad by giving up someone who is unlikely to be irreplaceable at a position we project no MLB need for the next two years.

If Allen were a SS, 3B, C or a CF, we probably wouldn't have made that move. But he isn't. He's a 1B and we have a pretty good one who many hope is around for a long time. And if we ever do need another one, they are easy to find.

The only question is how good Allen will be. That's something we really can't answer.

Well said. And every team values and scouts prospects differently. Keep in mind that the Sox acquired a proven major league player, who has upside and is cheap. Allen has never stepped foot on a major league field, and there is a chance he never will. There's also a chance he could be an everyday player. Who knows. It didn't help that he was pretty overrated by some here.

And the bullpen is often a numbers game. We got another good young arm in Pena, no idea if he'll work out, but the more promising arms you have the better off you are. Especially, with a good pitching coach.

LoveYourSuit
07-25-2009, 06:27 PM
Said it 2 weeks ago, Sadly the bullpen has become a complete train wreck. :angry:


It starts with Bobby, if he can't get it going, I don't like our chances.

hi im skot
07-25-2009, 06:28 PM
Said it 2 weeks ago, Sadly the bullpen has become a complete train wreck. :angry:


Congratu****inglations.

LoveYourSuit
07-25-2009, 06:38 PM
Congratu****inglations.


Not taking credit.

Cooper needs to get his **** togeter becuse this sort of **** happens to this team during his tenure every season. Bullpen implosions every July and August.

CWSpalehoseCWS
07-25-2009, 07:03 PM
Our bullpen is better than average, it just happens to be that all of our guys are struggling at the same time. It's like a disease. I'm sure they'll get it together, I just hope that it's sooner rather than later. We don't need to lose any more of these important games. As for Bobby, he still only has 4 blown saves, that's not exactly bad, especially if he gets on a roll and only blows 1 more.

tsoxman
07-25-2009, 07:06 PM
Well said. And every team values and scouts prospects differently. Keep in mind that the Sox acquired a proven major league player, who has upside and is cheap. Allen has never stepped foot on a major league field, and there is a chance he never will. There's also a chance he could be an everyday player. Who knows. It didn't help that he was pretty overrated by some here.

And the bullpen is often a numbers game. We got another good young arm in Pena, no idea if he'll work out, but the more promising arms you have the better off you are. Especially, with a good pitching coach.

Upside?? Really?? What do you see in the distinguished career in Tony Pena that leads you to beleieve he will be anyhting beyond a mop up guy?

Lip Man 1
07-25-2009, 08:09 PM
Love:

Is it really Cooper? or Ozzie's continual 'match up' philosophy that causes him to go through three, four or five pitchers a game? Those guys all have to warm up (sometimes a few times) and that adds up over the course of a season.

Why he can't let, say Dotel, face BOTH a left hander and a right hander is beyond me. Dotel will face a righty then as soon as a left handed hitter is out of the dugout, he's on the field bringing in Thornton. Burning through pitchers like he's got 14 on the roster. Pitchers are supposed to get guys out regardless of what side of the plate they are standing on.

Today perfect example...brings in Thornton to face one guy...why? Oh he's left handed. Then he pulls him and burns through another pitcher. Couldn't Thornton had pitched an inning? or couldn't he have saved his only left hander for a game situation in the 9th and used somebody else even though Granderson was a left hander?

I understand sometimes you have to do this but Ozzie does it constantly.

I'm reminded of something Donn Pall told me, how he'd much rather have a bullpen that's underworked than overworked.

Lip

Frater Perdurabo
07-25-2009, 08:19 PM
Love:

Is it really Cooper? or Ozzie's continual 'match up' philosophy that causes him to go through three, four or five pitchers a game? Those guys all have to warm up (sometimes a few times) and that adds up over the course of a season.

Why he can't let, say Dotel, face BOTH a left hander and a right hander is beyond me. Dotel will face a righty then as soon as a left handed hitter is out of the dugout, he's on the field bringing in Thornton. Burning through pitchers like he's got 14 on the roster. Pitchers are supposed to get guys out regardless of what side of the plate they are standing on.

I understand sometimes you have to do this but Ozzie does it constantly.

I'm reminded of something Donn Pall told me, how he'd much rather have a bullpen that's underworked than overworked.

Lip

I agree with this. The less a bullpen is used, the more effective it is.

Chicken Dinner
07-25-2009, 09:02 PM
The numbers seem to be going in the wrong direction.

http://chicago.whitesox.mlb.com/stats/individual_player_gamebygamelog.jsp?c_id=cws&playerID=408057&statType=2

JB98
07-25-2009, 09:07 PM
He threw the ball much better today than he did the previous four outings.

He only made one bad pitch today, but boy, was it ever a bad pitch.

Chicken Dinner
07-25-2009, 09:09 PM
He threw the ball much better today than he did the previous four outings.

He only made one bad pitch today, but boy, was it ever a bad pitch.

I will have to agree with that.

Jurr
07-25-2009, 10:40 PM
You pay a closer to perform in these circumstances. Bobby had the benefit of awful shadows aiding his cause. He coughed up another lead. Now, I understand that you can't expect a closer to come through every time, but this guy's gotta get it together. Nothing breaks the psyche of a team more than having a bad closer. Every at bat becomes more pressure packed for hitters when they know a slim lead is not safe. Ughhhh!!

captain54
07-25-2009, 11:02 PM
Let's not forget Bobby put two guys on base after there was one out..

I'm can't remember the last time Jenks pitched a 1-2-3 inning..

so, to me, the "one bad pitch" argument doesnt' hold any water. If he would have gotten as least one of the guys out he allowed on base, we probably would have won.

Its becoming the norm for Jenks to come in and have 1-2 baserunners ...

Huisj
07-25-2009, 11:19 PM
Let's not forget Bobby put two guys on base after there was one out..

I'm can't remember the last time Jenks pitched a 1-2-3 inning..

so, to me, the "one bad pitch" argument doesnt' hold any water. If he would have gotten as least one of the guys out he allowed on base, we probably would have won.

Its becoming the norm for Jenks to come in and have 1-2 baserunners ...

So the pitch that shattered Thames' bat into 48 pieces and barely blooped over the infield was a bad pitch? He jammed him like no one's business with that pitch. And even Inge's hit was just a little looper off the end of the bat.

captain54
07-25-2009, 11:39 PM
I'd be curious to know how many 1-2-3 innings Jenks has pitched this month..
couple probably count them on on 1-2 fingers.

LoveYourSuit
07-26-2009, 12:56 AM
Love:

Is it really Cooper? or Ozzie's continual 'match up' philosophy that causes him to go through three, four or five pitchers a game? Those guys all have to warm up (sometimes a few times) and that adds up over the course of a season.

Why he can't let, say Dotel, face BOTH a left hander and a right hander is beyond me. Dotel will face a righty then as soon as a left handed hitter is out of the dugout, he's on the field bringing in Thornton. Burning through pitchers like he's got 14 on the roster. Pitchers are supposed to get guys out regardless of what side of the plate they are standing on.

Today perfect example...brings in Thornton to face one guy...why? Oh he's left handed. Then he pulls him and burns through another pitcher. Couldn't Thornton had pitched an inning? or couldn't he have saved his only left hander for a game situation in the 9th and used somebody else even though Granderson was a left hander?

I understand sometimes you have to do this but Ozzie does it constantly.

I'm reminded of something Donn Pall told me, how he'd much rather have a bullpen that's underworked than overworked.

Lip

I agree with you Lip. Ozzie sure doesn't help by burning that pen every night. But many will argue that this is the same way he managed in 2005 and he's got more rings on his finger than you and I.


Coop and Ozzie both take the blame here.

SBSoxFan
07-26-2009, 01:01 AM
So the pitch that shattered Thames' bat into 48 pieces and barely blooped over the infield was a bad pitch? He jammed him like no one's business with that pitch. And even Inge's hit was just a little looper off the end of the bat.

Yeah, I was thinking the same thing. Had Pods not been playing that stupid "no doubles" set, I think he catches Inge's ball easily.

Detroit singled the Sox to death. Even in the 9th, the last two were little ground balls that found holes.

ms620
07-26-2009, 09:13 AM
Yeah, I was thinking the same thing. Had Pods not been playing that stupid "no doubles" set, I think he catches Inge's ball easily.

Detroit singled the Sox to death. Even in the 9th, the last two were little ground balls that found holes.

But you know what, the bottom line was he had Grandeson 0-2. At that point, it didnt matter how soft the previous singles were. When you continuously let multiple baserunners get on you will give up runs. Bobby needed to step up and strike Grandeson out. Thats what great closers do. And Bobby didnt do it. Do not make excuses for him by saying that the singles were soft.

Hartman
07-26-2009, 09:28 AM
We need to look toward the future, not toward the past. We won the World Series 4 years ago, a lot has changed since then. Jenks and the entire bullpen need to get it together.

Jpgr91
07-26-2009, 10:23 AM
Unless their name is Mariano or Trevor, closers have a pretty short shelflife. Maybe Jenks is done? Since he came off of the consecutive out's streak has anyone really had the feeling "this game is locked up" when Jenks has come in to pitch?

russ99
07-26-2009, 11:55 AM
Unless their name is Mariano or Trevor, closers have a pretty short shelflife. Maybe Jenks is done? Since he came off of the consecutive out's streak has anyone really had the feeling "this game is locked up" when Jenks has come in to pitch?

Two weeks ago Jenks was unhittable. The word "done" doesn't even enter the conversation.

As in my previous post. these guys are being shuttled in and out on Ozzie's whim instead of given loosely set roles. And when they fail at those roles, why not put someone else in them.

Maybe Pena could be the 8th inning guy - we won't know unless he gets a chance to prove it.

Also, if Jenks or Thornton are the only guys who Ozzie trusts to get us out of a jam, then there's a whole trust/confidence issue with the other guys as well. which could be half the battle getting them back on track.

Some of you think that relievers shouldn't be "coddled" in this manner, but that's what makes bullpens successful. Guys need to know their job and have the stuff, confidence and mentality to do it.

Craig Grebeck
07-26-2009, 12:03 PM
I'm way more concerned about Linebrink than Jenks. Bobby will be fine I'm sure, but Linebrink is here for TWO MORE YEARS and looks done already.

Railsplitter
07-26-2009, 01:20 PM
I'm beginning to wonder if Jenks is hurting.

JB98
07-26-2009, 01:22 PM
I'm beginning to wonder if Jenks is hurting.

He's not hurting. His stuff was outstanding yesterday. His results weren't.

SBSoxFan
07-26-2009, 01:48 PM
But you know what, the bottom line was he had Grandeson 0-2. At that point, it didnt matter how soft the previous singles were. When you continuously let multiple baserunners get on you will give up runs. Bobby needed to step up and strike Grandeson out. Thats what great closers do. And Bobby didnt do it. Do not make excuses for him by saying that the singles were soft.

I'm not making excuses for him; there's plenty of blame to go around. I agree, the 0-2 pitch to Granderson was poor pitch selection and poorer location. That's on Jenks and AJ. Jenks didn't need to strikeout Granderson. All he had to do was get him out.

Walks, errors, and poor pitch location/selection aren't acceptable, but they happen. Baseballs a crazy game. Sometimes balls fall in sometimes they don't. The Tigers had 12 hits yesterday and 10 of those were singles. That's probably quite unusual.

ms620
07-26-2009, 04:09 PM
I'm not making excuses for him; there's plenty of blame to go around. I agree, the 0-2 pitch to Granderson was poor pitch selection and poorer location. That's on Jenks and AJ. Jenks didn't need to strikeout Granderson. All he had to do was get him out.

Walks, errors, and poor pitch location/selection aren't acceptable, but they happen. Baseballs a crazy game. Sometimes balls fall in sometimes they don't. The Tigers had 12 hits yesterday and 10 of those were singles. That's probably quite unusual.

You are right..Jenks didnt need to strikeout Granderson. But, there is less risk of giving up a hit when you strike someone out compared to when you let them put the ball in play. The best closers are generally strikeout pitchers. There are always exceptions, but when you have a guy 0-2...you should be thinking strikeout. Dont make the defense have to make a play. Dont take the chance that a bleeder gets through the infield. Thats all I am saying.

jdm2662
07-26-2009, 04:45 PM
I agree with this. The less a bullpen is used, the more effective it is.

Bullpen pitchers are a dime a dozen. The 2005 Sox bullpen was the best in the league. They were used the least...