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Sockinchisox
07-16-2009, 12:37 AM
http://msn.foxsports.com/mlb/story/9813436/Putting-together-a-package-for-Halladay

Would be an option if Quentin can't recover.

BigP50
07-16-2009, 12:43 AM
I wonder what gets us an Alex Rios?

dwalteroo
07-16-2009, 12:48 AM
I'm a huge fan of Rios, and I know he's just not playing to his potential this year. That said, the Jays would have to eat a fair portion of that contract - he's signed through 2014 at $64 million, which isn't too appetizing given the numbers he's put up so far this year. If they'd do that, I'd be for Rios joining the good guys.

johnnyg83
07-16-2009, 12:55 AM
I like that he can play RF if JD goes to DH.

If we took most of that salary, I don't think we'd have to give up much. What do they need? Their young pitching seems deep ... so who?

TheVulture
07-16-2009, 01:11 AM
- he's signed through 2014 at $64 million, which isn't too appetizing given the numbers he's put up so far this year.

Does that include this year? Because less than 11 mil/yr for a quality all around 28 year old centerfielder doesn't sound too bad for this team to me.

oeo
07-16-2009, 01:18 AM
It says they have had interest in the past, not recently.

That said, if they can nab him for cheap by taking on the contract during a weak year, do it. I don't think Rios has reached his potential at any point in his career yet.

JermaineDye05
07-16-2009, 01:27 AM
Anything that keeps Pods out of centerfield is fine by me.

Would Aaron Poreda straight-up be enough for Rios? I'm reluctant to do that since I like Poreda so much but I also really like Rios.

jabrch
07-16-2009, 02:21 AM
With that contract, assuming Toronto is not paying anything, I wouldn't give them much at all. Now if they want to eat most of that deal, it would be a different story.

I'd prefer to not take on bad salary without relief. I'd rather give up a prospect and get RIos with major cash.

jabrch
07-16-2009, 02:22 AM
Anything that keeps Pods out of centerfield is fine by me.

Would Aaron Poreda straight-up be enough for Rios? I'm reluctant to do that since I like Poreda so much but I also really like Rios.

The only way I'd do that is if they pay most of his deal. I wouldn't want to lose Poreda and take on a crappy contract.

35th and Shields
07-16-2009, 02:30 AM
The only way I'd do that is if they pay most of his deal. I wouldn't want to lose Poreda and take on a crappy contract.

Yep, taking on a crappy contract is probably one of last things the sox are going to do.

MisterB
07-16-2009, 02:46 AM
Does that include this year? Because less than 11 mil/yr for a quality all around 28 year old centerfielder doesn't sound too bad for this team to me.

He's due $58.7M from 2010-14 with a $13.5M option for 2015 ($1M buyout).

russ99
07-16-2009, 06:00 AM
Yep, taking on a crappy contract is probably one of last things the sox are going to do.

Is it just me or is Rios getting more than the Sox offered for Torii Hunter over the next 4 years?

Sounds like the Jays would need to eat consderable salary in order to move him anywhere, especially if they want any kind of decent return for him.

Maybe another Thome-like trade could be possible for the Sox here. The Jays want infielders, so maybe something like Shelby and a decent pitching prospect (not Poreda) might be an acceptable offer.

soxfanreggie
07-16-2009, 07:03 AM
I don't want to see us giving up Beckham for him; however, I would give up a decent prospect if they're willing to eat some of his contract. I don't expect to see a Thome-like concession where they pay half of the deal, but I could see them chipping in a few million a year. He is an even more important get for us if we lose Dye because then we're looking to have a TCQ-Rios-Pods OF for next year.

The Immigrant
07-16-2009, 08:33 AM
Is it just me or is Rios getting more than the Sox offered for Torii Hunter over the next 4 years?

It's about the same, but Rios is 6 years younger than Hunter and is just now entering his prime years. It's time to loosen up the purse strings, dammit.

Tragg
07-16-2009, 08:39 AM
I wonder what gets us an Alex Rios?
With that contract?
An organizational minor leaguer and nothing more. And they should eat some of that contract for their organizational minor leaguer.

The price for us appears to be twice as much as anyone else would pay. NO ONE would give their top pitching prospect for him.
He's another low-obp ballplayer that this organization seems to love.

LoveYourSuit
07-16-2009, 09:46 AM
I think Rios has yet to hit his peak, and in the Cell .....look out.

I think this would be a good investment for the future, a heavy one, but a good one.

Zisk77
07-16-2009, 09:49 AM
If its Richards and Shelby and Jays eat about 30 mil. it could work.

thedudeabides
07-16-2009, 10:00 AM
I like that he can play RF if JD goes to DH.

If we took most of that salary, I don't think we'd have to give up much. What do they need? Their young pitching seems deep ... so who?

I like the fact that he can play CF. I think he would be the perfect type of acquisition for the future. If Dye is brought back and Thome is gone next year, you can keep Dye, Quentin, and Pods. With Rios being the primary centerfielder, the rest can rotate the DH and outfield roles. All three of them have injury or age concerns, so it would be a great way to keep them fresh.

The Jays would certainly have to provide some salary relief. Of course, this is speculation, although Rosenthal usually has pretty reliable sources, but I could see this being more likely in the offseason. Unless, Carlos is just unable to go this year.

Tragg
07-16-2009, 11:02 AM
He's another low-obp ballplayer that averages 15-20 homers a year that this organization seems to love and seem to think is an all star talent.

The price for us appears to be twice as much as anyone else would pay. NO ONE would give their top pitching (or any other) prospect for him. It's ridiculous.

Why trade young talent for average ballplayers?

Sad
07-16-2009, 11:22 AM
I thought I heard Toronto was trying to package Rios (OR Wells) with any possible Halladay move... :scratch:
so we'll just have to get both of them !

thedudeabides
07-16-2009, 11:24 AM
He's another low-obp ballplayer that averages 15-20 homers a year that this organization seems to love and seem to think is an all star talent.

The price for us appears to be twice as much as anyone else would pay. NO ONE would give their top pitching (or any other) prospect for him. It's ridiculous.

Why trade young talent for average ballplayers?

Because it's young, and unproven talent. And any names thrown around are pure speculation. And with Rios you are buying low. Outside of this year he hasn't been a bad OBP guy. He does a lot of things well, and if you haven't noticed we've had a bit of a problem getting a CF.

The cost of prospects would have a direct correlation with how much the Blue Jays are willing to pay on his contract.

thedudeabides
07-16-2009, 11:27 AM
I thought I heard Toronto was trying to package Rios (OR Wells) with any possible Halladay move... :scratch:
so we'll just have to get both of them !

That would be ideal for them, but it is very unlikely. You eliminate nearly every trading partner if you are asking to take on that type of salary.

LoveYourSuit
07-16-2009, 11:29 AM
That would be ideal for them, but it is very unlikely. You eliminate nearly every trading partner if you are asking to take on that type of salary.


The Sox might be the only team out there in need of both a quality OF and another SP.

tm1119
07-16-2009, 11:29 AM
He's another low-obp ballplayer that averages 15-20 homers a year that this organization seems to love and seem to think is an all star talent.

The price for us appears to be twice as much as anyone else would pay. NO ONE would give their top pitching (or any other) prospect for him. It's ridiculous.

Why trade young talent for average ballplayers?

This is clearly a down year for him. His OBP was .354 in 07 and .337 in 08. His Slug % and OPS are also both down .60 or .70 points from what is expected of him. If hes putting up his usual .290 .340 .470 .800 than he is better than an average CF. And around 12 mil per year really isnt that much for a starting CF.
Its not ridiculous for us to give up some prospects for a 28 year old CF that has put up good #'s in the past. I'd have no problem giving up Jordan Danks and a pitching prospect not named Poreda or Hudson.

thedudeabides
07-16-2009, 11:38 AM
The Sox might be the only team out there in need of both a quality OF and another SP.

I would love them both, but do you really think they have that kind of payroll flexibility? Does anyone?

mzh
07-16-2009, 11:43 AM
If we somehow trade for Rios this year and put him in center field, that's just one problem leading to another. What do you do with ScottyPods? We have a center fielder but once again no leadoff man, unless we want to put Getz back in there.

dakotasox
07-16-2009, 12:06 PM
If we somehow trade for Rios this year and put him in center field, that's just one problem leading to another. What do you do with ScottyPods? We have a center fielder but once again no leadoff man, unless we want to put Getz back in there.

Pods to LF, Quentin or Dye to DH, Thome to a retirement home. Yeah, I know he has a high OBP, but he can't hit consistently anymore.

Tragg
07-16-2009, 12:11 PM
Because it's young, and unproven talent. And any names thrown around are pure speculation. And with Rios you are buying low. Outside of this year he hasn't been a bad OBP guy. He does a lot of things well, and if you haven't noticed we've had a bit of a problem getting a CF.

The cost of prospects would have a direct correlation with how much the Blue Jays are willing to pay on his contract.
He's 28 years old and has been in the majors for 6 years.
His production is average. What evidence is there that he's any more than that? He hits like Iguchi.
And someone mentioned he could replace Carlos Quentin? Where are the 20 homers and 40 points on the obp coming from?
The Sox need young talent.

Halladay is the best pitcher ever; the Jays had AJ Burnett for years and he is one of the "elite." Rios is a great young talent; if Vernon Wells were on the block, this board would go crazy.....how is it that the Jays are consistently mediocre with all of this talent?

PalehosePlanet
07-16-2009, 12:15 PM
Acquiring Rios would also offer us some protection should JD choose to leave after this year. In this scenario, with both Thome and JD out of the picture next year, we would would only be one player short rather than two going into the winter.

hawkjt
07-16-2009, 12:45 PM
Toronto is not a great hr park, I believe..so with his size, I suspect he hits more homers at Soxpark.
If the Jays would eat 200-25 million...and sox pay him 7-8 million/yr the next 5...he could be the answer in centerfield or right field depending on JD and Carlos's status. I like him. Just do not give up much to get him,please.

thedudeabides
07-16-2009, 12:47 PM
He's 28 years old and has been in the majors for 6 years.
His production is average. What evidence is there that he's any more than that? He hits like Iguchi.
And someone mentioned he could replace Carlos Quentin? Where are the 20 homers and 40 points on the obp coming from?
The Sox need young talent.

Halladay is the best pitcher ever; the Jays had AJ Burnett for years and he is one of the "elite." Rios is a great young talent; if Vernon Wells were on the block, this board would go crazy.....how is it that the Jays are consistently mediocre with all of this talent?

He can play CF defense, and he can do it well. He struggled the first half, but his last few seasons he's been putting up 60-70 extra base hits, stealing anywhere from 15-30 bases, and hitting in the neighborhood of .300, with a .350 OBP. That is not average for the centerfield position. Right now you can buy low on him, and he's entering the prime years of his career.

And Vernon Wells is on the block, and I haven't seen a single person clamoring for him, so I'm not sure what your talking about. Bringing up three players names and talking about the success of their team, which has been successful in the best division in baseball, is really not all that relevant in this conversation. The Padres have one of the top pitchers, top closers, and top first baseman in baseball, yet they aren't good. I guess we shouldn't acquire any of those guys. :scratch:

DSpivack
07-16-2009, 01:05 PM
He can play CF defense, and he can do it well. He struggled the first half, but his last few seasons he's been putting up 60-70 extra base hits, stealing anywhere from 15-30 bases, and hitting in the neighborhood of .300, with a .350 OBP. That is not average for the centerfield position. Right now you can buy low on him, and he's entering the prime years of his career.

And Vernon Wells is on the block, and I haven't seen a single person clamoring for him, so I'm not sure what your talking about. Bringing up three players names and talking about the success of their team, which has been successful in the best division in baseball, is really not all that relevant in this conversation. The Padres have one of the top pitchers, top closers, and top first baseman in baseball, yet they aren't good. I guess we shouldn't acquire any of those guys. :scratch:

He's done that exactly once in his career, in 2006. He's a career .285/.335/.450 hitter, had an off year last year, and is even worse so far this season. I wouldn't want the Sox to give up much for him, nor would I want them to pay all of his salary.

tm1119
07-16-2009, 01:23 PM
He's done that exactly once in his career, in 2006. He's a career .285/.335/.450 hitter, had an off year last year, and is even worse so far this season. I wouldn't want the Sox to give up much for him, nor would I want them to pay all of his salary.

Where else do you get a MLB starting CF (which Rios is) for around 10mil a year? We sure as hell haven't had a good answer to that in the past 5 years. Its not even like that is a huge contract that will be a burden on the team, especially with all of the money we have coming off of the books after this year. We are going to have to spend some money eventually if we want to be serious contenders.

DSpivack
07-16-2009, 01:31 PM
Where else do you get a MLB starting CF (which Rios is) for around 10mil a year? We sure as hell haven't had a good answer to that in the past 5 years. Its not even like that is a huge contract that will be a burden on the team, especially with all of the money we have coming off of the books after this year. We are going to have to spend some money eventually if we want to be serious contenders.

The point is that Rios is only a slightly above-average hitter. He won't make this team much better and comes at a steep price. How much the market rebounds this offseason remains to be seen, but $10 mil ($12 and $12.5 mil/yr after next season, and he is signed through 2014 w/ an option for 2015) is a lot of money, especially for a team which likes year-to-year payroll flexibility. That said, you're right, we do have money coming off the books, but I don't know if Rios is the answer. His career numbers are about what Alexei is hitting right now.

jabrch
07-16-2009, 01:54 PM
Where else do you get a MLB starting CF (which Rios is) for around 10mil a year? We sure as hell haven't had a good answer to that in the past 5 years. Its not even like that is a huge contract that will be a burden on the team, especially with all of the money we have coming off of the books after this year. We are going to have to spend some money eventually if we want to be serious contenders.


How much better is Rios than Pods overall? Sure - he's much better with the glove, but he isn't a GGer. He's somewhere in the middle of the pack, right? He's really a corner who can play CF. But if Pods plays like he has so far this year, Rios is a step down. So net/net, it is in the vicinity of a wash...and we'd be taking on a boatload of salary that would be space better used for a major upgrade somewhere.

I'm fine with Rios if Toronto picks up his salary and we give them a prospect. I'm not fine with paying a ton of money to have Rios, even if they give him to us for free. Put it this way, if they put him on irrevocable waivers, I wouldn't claim him.

tm1119
07-16-2009, 01:56 PM
The point is that Rios is only a slightly above-average hitter. He won't make this team much better and comes at a steep price. How much the market rebounds this offseason remains to be seen, but $10 mil ($12 and $12.5 mil/yr after next season, and he is signed through 2014 w/ an option for 2015) is a lot of money, especially for a team which likes year-to-year payroll flexibility. That said, you're right, we do have money coming off the books, but I don't know if Rios is the answer. His career numbers are about what Alexei is hitting right now.

That is if you take into account his 1st and 2nd years in the league that were incomplete years. He saw his 1st complete year in 06 and that is when he hit his stride.

06 he hit- .302 .349 .516 .856
07- .297 .354 .498 .852
08- .291 .337 .461 .798

That isnt a HUGE upgrade over BA/Wise? He is also still relatively young, and moving to the Cell and hitting in our much better lineup would only help him. Im not saying that Rios is great and will turn our team around, but he would be a a good addition for the next 4 years that would only cost us a few unproven prospects. Maybe I'm just a little desperate to fill our seemingly never ending CF problem.

Craig Grebeck
07-16-2009, 01:57 PM
How much better is Rios than Pods overall? Sure - he's much better with the glove, but he isn't a GGer. He's somewhere in the middle of the pack, right? He's really a corner who can play CF. But if Pods plays like he has so far this year, Rios is a step down. So net/net, it is in the vicinity of a wash...and we'd be taking on a boatload of salary that would be space better used for a major upgrade somewhere.

I'm fine with Rios if Toronto picks up his salary and we give them a prospect. I'm not fine with paying a ton of money to have Rios, even if they give him to us for free. Put it this way, if they put him on irrevocable waivers, I wouldn't claim him.
If we run the organization with this thought process, we will not contend. There's not much reason to think Pods will carry this on.

thedudeabides
07-16-2009, 02:04 PM
He's done that exactly once in his career, in 2006. He's a career .285/.335/.450 hitter, had an off year last year, and is even worse so far this season. I wouldn't want the Sox to give up much for him, nor would I want them to pay all of his salary.

How do you think last year was a down year? His OBP is the only thing that wasn't great. He had a line of .291/.337/.461. Rios had 70 extra base hits and 32 stolen bases, in a pitchers park. How much more producion could you want out of a CF? That's better than Alexei's numbers at a premium defensive postion.

He's not Beltran or Hunter, but he would definitely be in the next tier. And if Toronto kicks in even a few million a year, you can have him for 7-9 million per. Your not going to find that anywhere else. I think it would be a great solution to the black hole that we have in CF.

How much better is Rios than Pods overall? Sure - he's much better with the glove, but he isn't a GGer. He's somewhere in the middle of the pack, right? He's really a corner who can play CF. But if Pods plays like he has so far this year, Rios is a step down. So net/net, it is in the vicinity of a wash...and we'd be taking on a boatload of salary that would be space better used for a major upgrade somewhere.

I'm fine with Rios if Toronto picks up his salary and we give them a prospect. I'm not fine with paying a ton of money to have Rios, even if they give him to us for free. Put it this way, if they put him on irrevocable waivers, I wouldn't claim him.

He's really a CF playing RF, because of Vernon Wells. And there is a lot of talk of moving him back, flip flopping him and Wells, in the near future. He is a good defensive outfielder with a strong arm.

Him and Pods are much different players. And I think there is plenty of room for both of them next year.

tm1119
07-16-2009, 02:12 PM
If we run the organization with this thought process, we will not contend. There's not much reason to think Pods will carry this on.

Exactly. We got a very good 1st half out of Pods, but he is by no means a long term solution. Especially since he really isnt even capable of playing CF. This is also arguably Pods best season ever so far, Im not buying that a 33 that was cut just a few months is going to keep up his career best pace for much longer.
And yes, Rios would still be an upgrade over Pods right now. He plays better D, hits for the same average with much better power, and is probably a bigger base stealing threat right now.

BadBobbyJenks
07-16-2009, 02:15 PM
If WSIers cant stand the streaky hitters we have already, wait until they get a load of Alex Rios!

Jerome
07-16-2009, 09:19 PM
Intriguing. It would be nice to have a solid CF, both with the bat and glove. If Toronto were to eat significant (I'm talking half) of the contract, would Poreda straight up be enough? If they're not paying much or any of the salary, let's try to get him for Richard+Getz/Fields or something like that.

Frater Perdurabo
07-16-2009, 09:52 PM
I posted something similar in the Halladay thread:

Sox get: Rios, Halladay
Jays get: Richard, Poreda, top SS prospect from Giants, major salary relief
Giants get: Dye

Noneck
07-16-2009, 11:18 PM
I posted something similar in the Halladay thread:

Sox get: Rios, Halladay
Jays get: Richard, Poreda, top SS prospect from Giants, major salary relief
Giants get: Dye

You also mentioned the Sox having 72 hours in order to extend Halladays contract. If you think the Sox will extend Halladays contract and pick up Rios contract, you are dreaming. Not with the present ownership will that ever happen.

Frater Perdurabo
07-17-2009, 07:04 AM
You also mentioned the Sox having 72 hours in order to extend Halladays contract. If you think the Sox will extend Halladays contract and pick up Rios contract, you are dreaming. Not with the present ownership will that ever happen.

Maybe so, but they have a lot of salary coming off the books this offseason.

jabrch
07-17-2009, 07:06 AM
Maybe so, but they have a lot of salary coming off the books this offseason.

Just trade PK for him... :-)

ms620
07-17-2009, 08:44 AM
I posted something similar in the Halladay thread:

Sox get: Rios, Halladay
Jays get: Richard, Poreda, top SS prospect from Giants, major salary relief
Giants get: Dye

With all due respect, there is 0 chance the Jays would trade Rios and Halladay for that package. Yes they need to shed salary, but they can easily get a better package than that.

Tragg
07-17-2009, 09:10 AM
If we run the organization with this thought process, we will not contend. There's not much reason to think Pods will carry this on.
That's true...but he's also cheap and we don't have to give up anyone to get him.
I certainly prefer Podsednik to trading Poreda (whom the groupthink on this board has decided is a bust) et al for .335 obp and 17 homers that is deemed all star caliber.


We're going to need some young outfielders though - hopefully Danks continues to develop and I hope Williams is alert for possible swaps.

jabrch
07-17-2009, 09:31 AM
With all due respect, there is 0 chance the Jays would trade Rios and Halladay for that package. Yes they need to shed salary, but they can easily get a better package than that.


If someone takes on ALL of Rios' contract, I'm not sure how much more they will get than that. They may not trade him, but if they combine Rios or Wells into a Halladay deal, it really decreases the value of the overall package.

Put it this way - I wouldn't take Rios and his contract for free. They'd have to give me something to take him. I can't imagine KW (or any other GM) wouldn't think similarly. So if you add him into a Halladay deal, you subtract from your return on Halladay.

If they Jays want to maximize their return for Halladay, they won't tie anyone to him.

Jurr
07-17-2009, 01:34 PM
Well, ESPN's Jerry Krasnick (sp?) is hearing from AL personnel people that the Sox are going to be players in the Halladay sweepstakes. We'll see if Rios is brought up as part of a package.

JermaineDye05
07-17-2009, 01:42 PM
Well, ESPN's Jerry Krasnick (sp?) is hearing from AL personnel people that the Sox are going to be players in the Halladay sweepstakes. We'll see if Rios is brought up as part of a package.

I see this as just speculation on Krasnick's part since the Sox actually have the prospects that the Jays might be interested in. However I believe it has been stated that Gordon is going nowhere.

...
07-17-2009, 01:45 PM
I see this as just speculation on Krasnick's part since the Sox actually have the prospects that the Jays might be interested in. However I believe it has been stated that Gordon is going nowhere.

It could be just speculation except for the fact that he cites AL personnel sources.

bestkosher
07-17-2009, 02:33 PM
I tend not to believe any rumors posted by ESPN referring to Kenny. They can put Kenny's name in front of most any trade jsut because it is easy and he is known for being aggresive and Kenny is not about to show his cards.

Craig Grebeck
07-17-2009, 10:48 PM
Pods to LF, Quentin or Dye to DH, Thome to a retirement home. Yeah, I know he has a high OBP, but he can't hit consistently anymore.
So how does it make our team better to replace Thome with an inferior offensive player?

soxfanreggie
07-27-2009, 09:46 AM
It will be interesting to see what Blue Jays make it through waivers. My guess is that you will see Rios and Wells make it through quite easily making them both available for waiver trades.

jabrch
07-27-2009, 10:14 AM
It will be interesting to see what Blue Jays make it through waivers. My guess is that you will see Rios and Wells make it through quite easily making them both available for waiver trades.

If either of them are claimed, I can't see Toronto not just giving them up... Claiming guys on waivers this season will be VERY risky.

areilly
07-27-2009, 12:04 PM
I see this as just speculation on Krasnick's part since the Sox actually have the prospects that the Jays might be interested in. However I believe it has been stated that Gordon is going nowhere.

It has, but so what? Brandon McCarthy wasn't going anywhere either. I personally would shed no tears if Sox brass turned Gordon Beckham into Roy Halladay. None.

oeo
07-27-2009, 12:12 PM
It has, but so what? Brandon McCarthy wasn't going anywhere either. I personally would shed no tears if Sox brass turned Gordon Beckham into Roy Halladay. None.

You're crazy. An entire career of Gordon Beckham or a year and a half of Roy Halladay? You better be damn sure you re-sign Halladay, and that at 32 he doesn't start to decline.

Also, the McCarthy deal is not comparable. The Sox received a young, left-handed starting pitcher with a very high ceiling in return. 32-year-old Halladay, who will be looking for some big money is not comparable to 22-year-old Danks.

KyWhiSoxFan
07-27-2009, 12:12 PM
It has, but so what? Brandon McCarthy wasn't going anywhere either. I personally would shed no tears if Sox brass turned Gordon Beckham into Roy Halladay. None.

I would. And I would be very, very disappointed if they traded Beckham.

Why would you trade a guy who is going to be a great everyday player for 10-plus years to borrow a pitcher for 1 1/4 seasons, especially since the Sox are not going to win the World Series with Halladay?

This team is flawed in so many ways and is in the process of transitioning to a younger team. Bringing in Halladay would not guarantee anything, including even making the playoffs this year. How many more starts does he have this year, 10 or 11? This year, Halladay may be worth another 3 or 4 wins than what the Sox would run out there in that pitching spot. That is not enough to mortgage the future on.

tacosalbarojas
07-27-2009, 01:24 PM
I don't want them to trade Beckham either, but if there's any sure thing in sports, it is that there is no sure thing. We don't know that Beckham winds up in the dumper or gets hurt...just like we don't know that Halladay won't decline after 32 or whether we'd be able to sign him. I would be disappointed if they traded Beckham and it's not very likely to happen either way, but if they did and got Halladay in return, I'd be willing to see how it plays out.

KMcMahon817
07-27-2009, 03:23 PM
It has, but so what? Brandon McCarthy wasn't going anywhere either. I personally would shed no tears if Sox brass turned Gordon Beckham into Roy Halladay. None.


That would utterly retarded. Excuse my french.

Tragg
07-27-2009, 03:26 PM
It has, but so what? Brandon McCarthy wasn't going anywhere either. I personally would shed no tears if Sox brass turned Gordon Beckham into Roy Halladay. None.
I would be pissed if the Sox did that.
There's no comparison between McCarthy and Beckham. Beckham is much higher prospect.

dwalteroo
07-27-2009, 03:34 PM
I would be pissed if the Sox did that.
There's no comparison between McCarthy and Beckham. Beckham is much higher prospect.

Agreed. There is no comparison whatsoever. Add me to the list of "Keep Beckham at All Cost"-ers.

Domeshot17
07-27-2009, 03:39 PM
I would demand to lock him up long term.

That said

If I had the choice between Beckham or Halladay say for 5 years, I would take Halladay in a heart beat. Much easier to find a 3b with an 800-900 OPS then it would a top of the rotation SP. Halladay is one of the best starters in baseball in the best division in baseball. Halladay-Buehrle-Danks-Floyd wins a world series if it gets to the playoffs.

KyWhiSoxFan
07-27-2009, 03:46 PM
I would demand to lock him up long term.

That said

If I had the choice between Beckham or Halladay say for 5 years, I would take Halladay in a heart beat. Much easier to find a 3b with an 800-900 OPS then it would a top of the rotation SP. Halladay is one of the best starters in baseball in the best division in baseball. Halladay-Buehrle-Danks-Floyd wins a world series if it gets to the playoffs.

The choice would not be Beckham or Halladay for five years. Halladay won't negotiate before a trade, so that is not a legitimate scenario. It is Beckham vs. Halladay for 10-12 starts or so plus one year.

Second, I don't see Beckham staying at third. He will be SS or 2B. At 2B, he will be an all star for a number of years in my opinion. And I think his numbers will improve over what he is doing today.

Third, I don't know if there are any guarantees of Halladay-Burehle, et al. winning a world series with such a flawed hitting and fielding team. I'm not sure they would be guaranteed to make the playoffs if Halladay were on the team the rest of 2009.

Domeshot17
07-27-2009, 03:54 PM
The choice would not be Beckham or Halladay for five years. Halladay won't negotiate before a trade, so that is not a legitimate scenario. It is Beckham vs. Halladay for 10-12 starts or so plus one year.

Second, I don't see Beckham staying at third. He will be SS or 2B. At 2B, he will be an all star for a number of years in my opinion. And I think his numbers will improve over what he is doing today.

Third, I don't know if there are any guarantees of Halladay-Burehle, et al. winning a world series with such a flawed hitting and fielding team. I'm not sure they would be guaranteed to make the playoffs if Halladay were on the team the rest of 2009.

I worry about the offense making the playoffs but pitching wins in the post season. Look at 2005, our offense wasn't all that good, but our pitching won most the games.

I agree, Beckham at 2b or SS is much more valuable. I don't know if hes a multi time all star, but he could be. My thought on him has always been he isn't going to be a Ryan Braun type of MVP hitter.

Finally, I agree with Halladay at 1.5 years. Thats why I said If he would negotiate I would listen for Beckham.

KyWhiSoxFan
07-27-2009, 04:04 PM
I worry about the offense making the playoffs but pitching wins in the post season. Look at 2005, our offense wasn't all that good, but our pitching won most the games.

I agree, Beckham at 2b or SS is much more valuable. I don't know if hes a multi time all star, but he could be. My thought on him has always been he isn't going to be a Ryan Braun type of MVP hitter.

Finally, I agree with Halladay at 1.5 years. Thats why I said If he would negotiate I would listen for Beckham.

No, Beckham probably won't be a Ryan Braun hitter, but I think his value will be enhanced dramatically when he is batting second at some point in his career. I really like his gap power, and there are going to be many a game where in the first inning he will be standing on second base with one or no outs (driving in the lead-off man). I really like Beckham because he already seems like a guy who makes things happen.

Getting a run early is what also helped propel that 2005 team. They did not hit well, but they had an early lead often, and that really helped the pitching. I believe the Sox led the majors that year in runs scored in the first inning.

areilly
07-27-2009, 04:17 PM
Why would you trade a guy who is going to be a great everyday player for 10-plus years to borrow a pitcher for 1 1/4 seasons, especially since the Sox are not going to win the World Series with Halladay?

Because there are more unknowns with Beckham. Halladay gives the Sox a rotation to rival the best of them, and that is easily the most difficult to assemble piece of a championship team. What if Halladay starts to break down? What if he doesn't? What if Beckham turns out to be the best player of all time? What if he suffers a career-ending injury the day after the trade deadline?

With less than one full season under his belt, you don't really know what you have from a player. After twelve, you absolutely do. Kenny Williams has said time and again the goal is to win now, and there is no arguing the fact that Halladay would contribute a lot more to that than Beckham would, and I think "definitely" is superior to "maybe."

That said, I can understand Williams' reasoning for holding onto Beckham. All signs say he'll be a a very good, maybe even great position player, and no one's complaining about that, but I'll take the already outstanding pitcher over the potentially outstanding position player any day of the week.

But that's just me, and I'm not the GM/zero rings/grinder/grit/2005/Quentin/Danks/etc. etc. etc.

Craig Grebeck
07-27-2009, 06:16 PM
I worry about the offense making the playoffs but pitching wins in the post season. Look at 2005, our offense wasn't all that good, but our pitching won most the games.

I agree, Beckham at 2b or SS is much more valuable. I don't know if hes a multi time all star, but he could be. My thought on him has always been he isn't going to be a Ryan Braun type of MVP hitter.

Finally, I agree with Halladay at 1.5 years. Thats why I said If he would negotiate I would listen for Beckham.
Not a chance. Five cost-controlled years of Beckham entering his prime at 2B far eclipses five years of Halladay at $20 million at his twilight. The fact that this is being discussed is nuts.

And edit: Beckham at 2B would be way more valuable than Braun in LF.

brick1119
07-31-2009, 12:54 PM
Not a chance. Five cost-controlled years of Beckham entering his prime at 2B far eclipses five years of Halladay at $20 million at his twilight. The fact that this is being discussed is nuts.

And edit: Beckham at 2B would be way more valuable than Braun in LF.


Agreed. Its not like you have to think of it as Beckham vs. Halladay. If you keep Beckham, you still have $20 million per year in the kitty to go out and fill two or three more spots in the coming year or two. Beckham should be in a Sox uni for 10-15 years, period. He's a special player, and the Sox were lucky to have him to slip to them in the draft.