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View Full Version : *Official* 7-12-09 Twins d. Sox Postgame Thread


Brian26
07-12-2009, 05:05 PM
That blew up, real good.

http://3.bp.blogspot.com/_wjH8uj9ArzE/SAjSZIqw9dI/AAAAAAAAAsg/1Rmdng_dwVw/s400/disco+demolition.jpg

LoveYourSuit
07-12-2009, 05:09 PM
Pitching has sucked big time the last 4 days.

A. Cavatica
07-12-2009, 05:11 PM
Memo to Kenny:

Sell.

gobears1987
07-12-2009, 05:12 PM
Memo to Kenny:

Sell.
Because that worked out so well the last time the Sox sold when down 3.5

If you want to severely damage this franchise for the next decade, then selling right now would do it. It took a World Series to undo the damage of the White Flag Trade.

LITTLE NELL
07-12-2009, 05:12 PM
At least we are hitting, you just feel that we are'nt going to get shutout game after game. Now for the pitching???????

Tragg
07-12-2009, 05:14 PM
Lost 3 out of the last 4 to close the first half.
45-43.
It's possible this team could eek out the division, but it's unlikely.

LoveYourSuit
07-12-2009, 05:16 PM
Because that worked out so well the last time the Sox sold when down 3.5

If you want to severely damage this franchise for the next decade, then selling right now would do it. It took a World Series to undo the damage of the White Flag Trade.




I think it won't matter at this point.

Fans are not too happy with this team anyways.

Besides, there is more talent down there today to regroup than there was with that last white flag.

Konerko05
07-12-2009, 05:18 PM
I could have hit off Buehrle today, but he's bound to have a bad game once in a while.

Pena doesn't seem to have great command. He might be a little bit of a project for Cooper. I'm not confident in him taking over the 7th inning role just yet. Although Dotel hasn't been great this season either.

Beckham obviously let his mental mistake in the 7th linger in his mind on that next groundball hit to him. He still looks great at the plate though.

WhiteSox1989
07-12-2009, 05:19 PM
Oh, well.

I still think the Sox will win the division.

Thank God It's the All-Star break.

MarySwiss
07-12-2009, 05:19 PM
Memo to Kenny:

Sell.

With half the season left? Uh, no.

whitem0nkey
07-12-2009, 05:19 PM
when looking back to the beginning of the season and the expectations I had coming in, I'm an Happy with where were at.

I did not expect Jose C to be so dominant and come back this quickly, I did not think we would have a successful leadoff man.

all in all im more exited than disappointed with this team.

the odd thing is, were in a good position to be sellers or buyers, with Jose, Thome, peter pan, we can sell but the division being so weak, we can also get to the playoffs. really an odd situation to be in at allstar break.

2 weeks ago I thought by now we would clearly know if we should buy or sell.

LITTLE NELL
07-12-2009, 05:20 PM
Lost 3 out of the last 4 to close the first half.
45-43.
It's possible this team could eek out the division, but it's unlikely.
If we are going to win it, we need to get off to a fast 2nd half start. We have some tough series coming up after the O's, we get the Rays, Tigers, another trip to the Dumpdome, then the Yankees and Angels.
Play hard, Sox.

PhillipsBubba
07-12-2009, 05:20 PM
With a roster that includes weak sisters like Brian Anderson, Dewayne Wise, Josh Fields and a fat old man like Bartolo Colon, improvements must be made to have a chance.

Konerko05
07-12-2009, 05:20 PM
when looking back to the beginning of the season and the expectations I had coming in, I'm an Happy with where were at.

I did not expect Jose C to be so dominant and come back this quickly, I did not think we would have a successful leadoff man.

all in all im more exited than disappointed with this team.

the odd thing is, were in a good position to be sellers or buyers, with Jose, Thome, peter pan, we can sell but the division being so weak, we can also get to the playoffs. really an odd situation to be in at allstar break.

2 weeks ago I thought by now we would clearly know if we should buy or sell.

Who is Peter Pan?

MarySwiss
07-12-2009, 05:22 PM
I think it won't matter at this point.

Fans are not too happy with this team anyways.

Besides, there is more talent down there today to regroup than there was with that last white flag.

Please speak for yourself because you don't speak for me. This team will contend, which is more than most of the "experts" expected preseason.

beasly213
07-12-2009, 05:23 PM
Who is Peter Pan?

Pods.

october23sp
07-12-2009, 05:24 PM
Alright if we at WSI got classifications of "dark cloud" or "optimistic" I would probably fall under the "dark cloud" category.

But some of you people calm the **** down. When have we ever played good in the dome? We are above .500 at the break which is really all it's gunna take in this division. We are knocking at the door of being better than just .500. We have been beating teams we are supposed to beat. The Twins kill us in that ****ty dome. What's new?

Calm down people we are in GREAT shape compared to what I was thinking after that homestand in early June.

We are playing great ball. Calm down.

whitem0nkey
07-12-2009, 05:26 PM
Who is Peter Pan?

http://nbcsportsmedia1.msnbc.com/j/apmegasports/hta13410270141.h2.jpg

beasly213
07-12-2009, 05:26 PM
With a roster that includes weak sisters like Brian Anderson, Dewayne Wise, Josh Fields and a fat old man like Bartolo Colon, improvements must be made to have a chance.

It also has a roster that contains..

Jermaine Dye
Paul Konerko
Gordon Beckham
Scott Podsednik
AJ
Gavin Floyd
Mark Buehrle
a re invented Jose Contreras

etc etc.


I can't believe all the people that live game to game during a baseball season. It is a LOOONG season that is just now half over with the Sox just 3 games out of first. If the Sox are able to hang around the top of the division for the rest of the year (say within 3-4 games) they have just a good a chance as anyone to win the division come September.

I haven't given up on this season and I can't see why anyone would.

october23sp
07-12-2009, 05:30 PM
Cleveland was 4 games above .500 and 15 games out on August 1st 2005.

I think if we add a pitcher we are better than that Cleveland team and definently better than the first place Tigers of 2009.

Soxman219
07-12-2009, 05:31 PM
So we lose our first series in a month and some people want to sell? I'm just happy that there is 6 more games in that hellhole.:bandance:

october23sp
07-12-2009, 05:31 PM
So we lose our first series in a month and some people want to sell? I'm just happy that there is 6 more games in that hellhole.:bandance:
potw.

tacosalbarojas
07-12-2009, 05:35 PM
Anyone know where Stone Pony went for the last three innings?

LoveYourSuit
07-12-2009, 05:37 PM
Please speak for yourself because you don't speak for me. This team will contend, which is more than most of the "experts" expected preseason.

I don't need to speak for myself.

The attendance numbers don't lie and have been discussed more than plenty here, the media, and Kenny. Fans are not flocking to the gate to go watch a mediocre ball club right now.

JB98
07-12-2009, 05:40 PM
You win and lose with starting pitching. The Sox had that 16-6 stretch to get back over .500 where the starting pitching was very good. The last four days, the starting pitching has ranged from mediocre to horrendous. So, they've gone 1-3 in those four games. It's too bad, because the Sox bats have been good lately.

Still, second place and 3.5 back at the All-Star break is better than I expected. I don't expect to make the playoffs this season, but at least the Sox will play meaningful games in the second half. Maybe they can eek out a division title if the starting pitching gets back on track.

Konerko05
07-12-2009, 05:41 PM
Good and bad pitching seems to be contagious with this team.

PhillipsBubba
07-12-2009, 05:42 PM
...Fans are not flocking to the gate to go watch a mediocre ball club right now.

Well said!

Lip Man 1
07-12-2009, 05:46 PM
This and That:

Mary just wondering (not trying to rip on you...) are the Sox in contention though because the division is so mediocre? Do you think this team even if they win the division, has any realistic type chance to win the pennant?

--------------------------------

All week long Ozzie Guillen kept reminding his club that the All Star Break (or All Popularity Contest Break) didn't begin until Sunday night.

Obviously the players thought otherwise because they sure acted like it had already begin about 1PM Chicago time.

I guess we should be grateful that the Sox didn't get swept in the "House of Horrors."

The momentum they were taking into the final week of games vanished with 5 losses out of 8.

A poor performance all the way around today, including two more errors. (Yet Ozzie actually said the defense is better this year than last season!) I know they "rallied" again but to me the Twins were simply trying to let the Sox hit the ball having a big lead in order to get outs and get home.

Thank God for the All Popularity Break...if the players don't need it Sox fans sure do with this Jekyll and Hyde baseball team.

Lip

MarySwiss
07-12-2009, 05:47 PM
I don't need to speak for myself.

The attendance numbers don't lie and have been discussed more than plenty here, the media, and Kenny. Fans are not flocking to the gate to go watch a mediocre ball club right now.

Sorry, but not all Sox fans live in Chicago, so not all Sox fans can attend games regularly. I've been a fan for 50+ years, and I am far from unhappy with this team's showing thus far. And a drop in attendance does not translate to "fans are unhappy" as a blanket statement--although I'd be fine with "some fans are unhappy." My point is that YOU may be unhappy; I am not.

Dick Allen
07-12-2009, 05:48 PM
Glad to see the boys started their All-Star break a day early. MB's head must have been in St. Louis.

Normally, I wouldn't be too upset about this loss, but I looked at it as a statement game in a statement series, and our ace failed us. Yes, they won most of their series for the last couple of weeks or so, and there's still a long way to go. But this team is going to need to play better with the schedule they have coming up in the 2nd half. I hope they rest well now.

Zisk77
07-12-2009, 05:50 PM
Memo to Kenny:

Sell.

Wow, just wow!

And with TCQ coming back.

Lip Man 1
07-12-2009, 05:52 PM
Zisk:

With his injury there are no guarantees. He might make it through the rest of the year or it may blow out in a week. Sox need to trade for another outfielder who can hit.

Lip

Jollyroger2
07-12-2009, 05:54 PM
Glad to see the boys started their All-Star break a day early. MB's head must have been in St. Louis.

Normally, I wouldn't be too upset about this loss, but I looked at it as a statement game in a statement series, and our ace failed us. Yes, they won most of their series for the last couple of weeks or so, and there's still a long way to go. But this team is going to need to play better with the schedule they have coming up in the 2nd half. I hope they rest well now.

Meh. This isn't suprising to me at all, and it's got nothing to do with the Twins or dome. This team's been playing boring, mediocre to lousy baseball all season. They're the textbook definition of a team that's going to hover around .500 all year. If the division was any good they'd already be way back of somebody. They win a few and look good for a while, then they play like they don't give a spit and start losing. It's like an endless pattern that got old a while ago.

Way to not show up guys....again. Now at least if Mark gets into the ASB the a-clowns on TV will have something to say about him, getting slammed in his most recent outing.

MarySwiss
07-12-2009, 05:54 PM
This and That:

Mary just wondering (not trying to rip on you...) are the Sox in contention though because the division is so mediocre? Do you think this team even if they win the division, has any realistic type chance to win the pennant?



Fair question, Lip! And yes, I honestly do. IIRC, not all that long ago, the AL Central was considered a strong division. Things change. But making the playoffs means you play on. Do I think the Sox are a shoo-in for the division or the pennant? No. But I think they have as good a chance as anybody else.

A few years ago, the Sox had as a marketing slogan, "The Kids Can Play." Apply it to this team: these kids make mistakes, but they are surprising. And a lot will depend on them, IMO.

At the very least, this should be an interesting second half! :D:

central44
07-12-2009, 05:56 PM
So we lose our first series in a month and some people want to sell? I'm just happy that there is 6 more games in that hellhole.:bandance:

Exactly. The Sox lose their first series in a month and it happens to be the Metrodome series. There's no shame in losing there. I think the enormous advantage the Twins have in that park has been well-documented at this point, and the Sox offense fought back twice after early pitching meltdowns.

I'm glad the Sox didn't get swept there. It would have been awesome to win that series. If the starting pitching was as good as the offense (a tall task when you look at the Twins style of play in that Dome) the Sox probably do win it. But in the Metrodome, i'll take what I can get--as long as the team shows me that it has what it takes to play baseball on real grass baseball fields.

Dick Allen
07-12-2009, 05:56 PM
Zisk:

With his injury there are no guarantees. He might make it through the rest of the year or it may blow out in a week. Sox need to trade for another outfielder who can hit.

LipMy wife has the same ailment as TCQ, and though I'm sure she doesn't get the same treatment as him, this condition is something that doesn't go away easily, if at all. That's why I'm not counting too heavily on him.

tsoxman
07-12-2009, 05:57 PM
Alright if we at WSI got classifications of "dark cloud" or "optimistic" I would probably fall under the "dark cloud" category.

But some of you people calm the **** down. When have we ever played good in the dome? We are above .500 at the break which is really all it's gunna take in this division. We are knocking at the door of being better than just .500. We have been beating teams we are supposed to beat. The Twins kill us in that ****ty dome. What's new?

Calm down people we are in GREAT shape compared to what I was thinking after that homestand in early June.

We are playing great ball. Calm down.

I agree and I am a 'Dark Cloud too'. I was curious to find out that 75% of the people on that poll thought that the Sox would take 2 out of 3 in this series which, BTW, they should have as Friday was a winnable game. Considering that we NEVER play well in that place, I thought that people's expectations for this team are a bit on the high side.

Consider that the Sox were with Quentin, for all intents and purposes, the whole season and the fact htat we are only 3.5 back, that's not too shabby of an effort. As far as the immediate future...our defense is terrible, we have a lousy bench, do not have a decent fifth starter nor a center fielder, plus our second half schedule is brutal.

october23sp
07-12-2009, 06:00 PM
Alright so people aren't happy with this team being 3.5 out with Quentin coming back? Oh and it doesn't matter what division you are in once you get into the playoffs...http://www.sportable.com/wp-content/uploads/2008/04/rockies-logo.jpg.

Zisk77
07-12-2009, 06:03 PM
Zisk:

With his injury there are no guarantees. He might make it through the rest of the year or it may blow out in a week. Sox need to trade for another outfielder who can hit.

Lip

yes, I'm familiar with plantar fascititus. I had it my self. I'm not opposed to picking up additional outfield help, but to sell right now is asinine.

voodoochile
07-12-2009, 06:06 PM
Memo to Kenny:

Sell.

Wow, 2/3 in Minnesota and here come the clouds again...

Sell what? Sell Who? To what end?

Is this just some sick plan to kill secondhalf attendance so the Sox have to make even more payroll cuts next year and won't be able to spend the money that is coming off the books?

I'm just glad you have no ability to actually dictate that memo with any force of authority at all.

:chickenlittle:

Jurr
07-12-2009, 06:07 PM
I agree and I am a 'Dark Cloud too'. I was curious to find out that 75% of the people on that poll thought that the Sox would take 2 out of 3 in this series which, BTW, they should have as Friday was a winnable game. Considering that we NEVER play well in that place, I thought that people's expectations for this team are a bit on the high side.

Consider that the Sox were with Quentin, for all intents and purposes, the whole season and the fact htat we are only 3.5 back, that's not too shabby of an effort. As far as the immediate future...our defense is terrible, we have a lousy bench, do not have a decent fifth starter nor a center fielder, plus our second half schedule is brutal.
Boy, I really question anybody that thought the Sox were going to win 2 out of 3 here. It NEVER seems to happen. I'm just happy that 1.)the Sox were able to get one of the wins and 2.)they never really stopped producing runs.

I'm a trends guy. I like watching to see how things are trending, and the Sox are definitely trending upward. They made up a good bit of ground on Detroit, they are in infinitely better shape from the starting rotation standpoint now that Contreras has rounded into shape, and the team is really looking like it's trying to phase in more offensive versatility. Pods and Beckham have been great. This team is light years ahead of the '07 and '08 versions as far as watchability goes. They may make some mistakes and have some bad games, but it's not a ton of long swinging and pouting. They have other ways to beat you than the long ball.

All in all, I say the first half of this season has been a good one. The first quarter was TERRIBLE, but the resurgence of Podsednik and Contreras combined with the daily improvement shown by our young players has led to an exciting second quarter. If the starting pitching holds up, we could be looking at a special group by September and October.

october23sp
07-12-2009, 06:10 PM
I never make predictions but here's a bold one and I'll probably jump off this prediction after a 3 game losing streak but just to say I said it:

White Sox will win this division.

Tragg
07-12-2009, 06:14 PM
Wow, 2/3 in Minnesota and here come the clouds again...

Sell what? Sell Who? To what end?
To get better - that end.

Defense
Pitching Depth
3B
DH opening next year.
RF, 1B, C opening soon
The muck that is CF that will hopefully be hidden for the rest of the year but is only a Pods bandaid away from being a sore

All of those need work; and on a side note, Roy Halladay helps ONE of the needs

LITTLE NELL
07-12-2009, 06:15 PM
I never make predictions but here's a bold one and I'll probably jump off this prediction after a 3 game losing streak but just to say I said it:

White Sox will win this division.
I agree but it will be a lot easier if TCQ comes back and performs like he did last year, we pick up a reliable 5th starter and the left side of the infield plays better D.

voodoochile
07-12-2009, 06:15 PM
I predicted they Sox would sweep, simply because I refuse to predict losses.

Looking at the way things unfolded if I told you on Thursday that the Sox were going to score 20 runs this weekend you'd probably have predicted them to win 2/3 too, but Danks had one horrific inning and BurlyMon had a horrible outing today.

Lip:
Why can't they win the pennant if they make the playoffs? With TCQ replacing one of the weak bats this team should be able to score plenty of runs and it looks (this weekend not withstanding) like they will have at least 4 starting pitchers that can go deep into games. Why does that sound like a helpless situation to you?

Agreed that if TCQ reinjures himself or doesn't come back at all it changes things, but if he does and if the pitching continues to be strong this team will actually be a real solid playoff team.

Loved the heart they showed both Friday and today trying to make game out of tough situations.

russ99
07-12-2009, 06:20 PM
To get better - that end.

Defense
Pitching Depth
3B
DH opening next year.
RF, 1B, C opening soon
The muck that is CF that will hopefully be hidden for the rest of the year but is only a Pods bandaid away from being a sore

All of those need work; and on a side note, Roy Halladay helps ONE of the needs

The problem is that selling implies trading solid players for prospects. And based on your post -if the Sox field a team of Quentin, Beckham, Getz and prospects next season, this team will be far worse and would likely not contend. Then we'd really hear complaining about attendance.

As I said before rebuilding is for suckers. Kenny seems to embrace the reload concept, and replace 1-2 older players per year. This year it's Thome's turn. I'm also not averse to dealing Dye if the Sox don't have him in their 2010 plans and it were obvious this team wouldn't be there for the stretch run, but I don't see that now. Otherwise, why deal anyone else? We have a decent system and when we get to 2011-2012 we can replace guys like Konerko and A.J. from within.

Regardless, we'd have a pretty good core and have room to add salary next offseason for an impact player or two.

thomas35forever
07-12-2009, 06:20 PM
Those who want the team to sell now get the **** off the bandwagon so us logical-thinking folks can have more legroom. Anyone expecting the Sox to win in that hellhole consistently needs to learn the team's recent history in that place. Don't expect more than one win per series there. If you had told me a month ago the Sox would be in second place and only 3 1/2 games out at the break, I wouldn't have believed you. I'm happy with what we've done the first half of the season. Whether we make a significant move remains to be seen, but I'm satisfied with what I've seen thus far. Take a four-day break and come out on Friday ready to win.

voodoochile
07-12-2009, 06:20 PM
To get better - that end.

Defense
Pitching Depth
3B
DH opening next year.
RF, 1B, C opening soon
The muck that is CF that will hopefully be hidden for the rest of the year but is only a Pods bandaid away from being a sore

All of those need work; and on a side note, Roy Halladay helps ONE of the needs

Defense - at what position specifically?

Pitching Depth - agreed. Would love to see KW acquire another starter who will be here past the season.

3B - That's an off season move or should be left alone. It's not time to shut down the Beckham experiment yet and Getz is actually showing signs of offensive life at 2B so it's less necessary to move Beckham.

DH opening next year - that's an off season move.

RF, 1B, C opening soon - 2011 is not "soon" and I for one am not interested in acquiring "prospects" to replace veterans who are still performing. Bring back/extend the veterans instead. Heck, I'd take a flier on a Pods' extension too.

october23sp
07-12-2009, 06:27 PM
Defense - at what position specifically?

Pitching Depth - agreed. Would love to see KW acquire another starter who will be here past the season.

3B - That's an off season move or should be left alone. It's not time to shut down the Beckham experiment yet and Getz is actually showing signs of offensive life at 2B so it's less necessary to move Beckham.

DH opening next year - that's an off season move.

RF, 1B, C opening soon - 2011 is not "soon" and I for one am not interested in acquiring "prospects" to replace veterans who are still performing. Bring back/extend the veterans instead. Heck, I'd take a flier on a Pods' extension too.

Agree on all accounts, we need one more pitcher to put us over the hump. Did I mention I hate Jake Peavy?

WhiteSox1989
07-12-2009, 06:32 PM
Defense - at what position specifically?

Pitching Depth - agreed. Would love to see KW acquire another starter who will be here past the season.

3B - That's an off season move or should be left alone. It's not time to shut down the Beckham experiment yet and Getz is actually showing signs of offensive life at 2B so it's less necessary to move Beckham.

DH opening next year - that's an off season move.

RF, 1B, C opening soon - 2011 is not "soon" and I for one am not interested in acquiring "prospects" to replace veterans who are still performing. Bring back/extend the veterans instead. Heck, I'd take a flier on a Pods' extension too.

Oh. Look. A person who is thinking logically and objectively.

I agree on everything you said. I really think that if KW were to get another legit starting pitcher (moving Richard to the bullpen), and Contreras (hoping he keeps it up) to the 5th spot. As someone else said, it would be very hard to beat the Sox.

DickAllen72
07-12-2009, 06:35 PM
To get better - that end.

Defense
Pitching Depth
3B
DH opening next year.
RF, 1B, C opening soon
The muck that is CF that will hopefully be hidden for the rest of the year but is only a Pods bandaid away from being a sore

All of those need work; and on a side note, Roy Halladay helps ONE of the needs
Scott Rolen fills the 3b hole. Alex Rios fill this year's CF hole and next year's RF hole.

Thome25
07-12-2009, 06:38 PM
Memo to Kenny:

Sell.

Yeah I mean we should DFA Buehrle after this latest perfomance. While we're at it, I wonder if the Sox can get some bailout money what with us being broke and all. Just look at the numbers from the Dodgers series.:tongue:

DickAllen72
07-12-2009, 06:38 PM
Memo to Kenny:

Sell.
Memo to Kenny:

Buy, buy, buy! This division is winnable.

Tragg
07-12-2009, 06:52 PM
Defense - at what position specifically?

Pitching Depth - agreed. Would love to see KW acquire another starter who will be here past the season.

3B - That's an off season move or should be left alone. It's not time to shut down the Beckham experiment yet and Getz is actually showing signs of offensive life at 2B so it's less necessary to move Beckham.

DH opening next year - that's an off season move.

RF, 1B, C opening soon - 2011 is not "soon" and I for one am not interested in acquiring "prospects" to replace veterans who are still performing. Bring back/extend the veterans instead. Heck, I'd take a flier on a Pods' extension too.

Any decent starter is going to cost too much in talent - pass; we need to stockpile young pitching. If they're willing to send Garland or something for taking his salary, that's okay by me. We traded Javy for one really good prospect and some fodder - ONE; don't people see the inconsitency here? (even moreso conidering we sent one for a middle reliever).

Defense - specifically? Take your pick. The only area that isn't below average is CF when Anderson plays and 1B.

Beckham at 3B isn't an experiment - it's a stopgap because we have no 3B. Beckham is far more valuable as a middle infielder. Alexei at SS is the experiment...I don't see him play enough to judge and the comments I read hereon and elsewhere don't help.

You say DH is an offseason move and that's fine; but if opportunities are there, take it. 2011 is soon enough - I sure as heck wouldn't trade every young player we have, paying the requisite ridiculously inflated price, to bring in one pitcher on this .500 team.

Podsednik's doing great...but if his obp ever dips below .340, he' a liability.

voodoochile
07-12-2009, 06:58 PM
Any decent starter is going to cost too much in talent - pass; we need to stockpile young pitching.

Defense - specifically? Take your pick. The only area that isn't below average is CF when Anderson plays and 1B.

3B isn't an experiment - it's a stopgap because we have no 3B. Beckham is far more valuable as a middle infielder.

You say DH is an offseason move and that's fine; but if opportunities are there, take it. 2011 is soon enough - I sure as heck wouldn't trade every young player we have, paying the requisite far higher price than anyone else pays for a similar player (see Halladay v Santana), to bring in one pitcher.

I don't see the pressing need at defense that you do. I think it will continue to improve, but again unless a player is as good offensively and an upgrade defensively, I for one am not interested.

I don't see much to trade that has a lot of value either at the moment not without weakening next year's team unless you start tearing down the minors again. I'm willing to do that because I always care more about the big league team than some possible payoff down the road, but I'd rather not gut it long term again.

I don't have a problem with the defense at 2B, SS, RF or C at the moment so we disagree there. I think what those players are bringing offensively (save 2B though Getz seems to be improving) more than makes up for any perceived defensive weakness and I can't see the Sox finding someone who is as good offensively and an improvement defensively without spending a LOT of cash. I tend to favor offense over defense anyway so this doesn't strike me as a major issue.

whitem0nkey
07-12-2009, 07:01 PM
Memo to Kenny:

Buy, buy, buy! This division is winnable.


I dont know if the sox should buy or sell its a hard call.

we are in a better position to sell than to buy. we should not let this weak division fool us into thinking that we are a player away.

but we can take this division, and once your in anything can happen

Tragg
07-12-2009, 07:06 PM
Scott Rolen fills the 3b hole. Alex Rios fill this year's CF hole and next year's RF hole.
Who's paying them?

Why aren't the Blue Jay a good team with all of the great player everyone wants?

Bobby Jenks
07-12-2009, 07:11 PM
Why would the Blue Jays trade Rios? Seriously.

It's Dankerific
07-12-2009, 07:12 PM
Someone will have to explain to me again why it was better to set our rotation up and go 1-3 instead of leaving **** alone and going 2-2.

Danks would have beat the Indians.

We basically factored in a loss against the indians so we'd have a "better" chance against the twins. Its going to be a dogfight there, no matter what. the only game we won was floyd, who i believe pitched in his normal slot.

Zisk77
07-12-2009, 07:14 PM
Why would the Blue Jays trade Rios? Seriously.


terrible contract

Tragg
07-12-2009, 07:15 PM
The problem is that selling implies trading solid players for prospects. And based on your post -if the Sox field a team of Quentin, Beckham, Getz and prospects next season, this team will be far worse and would likely not contend. Then we'd really hear complaining about attendance.

As I said before rebuilding is for suckers. Kenny seems to embrace the reload concept, and replace 1-2 older players per year. .
I agree - Rebuilding is for suckers.
A well-placed trade is essential for reloading. I think this is a .500 team - you could bring Jon Garland here and it' a .500 team;you could trade Konerko or Dotel and it's a .500 team.
I think we should be open for opportunities.
I hope that's what Williams did with that deal for the middle reliever with Az, but I highly doubt it. It looks like a lazy deal with a friendly trading mate.

Zisk77
07-12-2009, 07:17 PM
To get better - that end.

Defense
Pitching Depth
3B
DH opening next year.
RF, 1B, C opening soon
The muck that is CF that will hopefully be hidden for the rest of the year but is only a Pods bandaid away from being a sore

All of those need work; and on a side note, Roy Halladay helps ONE of the needs


Defense : much of it will get better with experience.
3b: beckham will be fine there.
Dh: not opening next year as Dye or Konerko will be there next year.
RF/IB will probably be Viciedo/Flowers or however Kenny acquires for strtch run.
CF yep need that

If we sell halladay doesn't fill any holes. Their would be no point acquiring him.

Red Barchetta
07-12-2009, 07:23 PM
The only difference IMO between the 2005 team and this years team is the 5th starter. Buehrle can't win every game, however Garland was a lot better in 2005 than Colon/Richards at 6-9 combined.

Many of the position players; Pods, Konerko, Dye, AJ, etc. are at least on par with their 2005 performance.

Kenny - do whatever it takes to get Roy Halladay. Trade Richards, Anderson and Fields. We need another starter and we will be fine. Move Pods to CF once "Q" is back and we'll be off to the races.

Go SOX!

october23sp
07-12-2009, 07:23 PM
Someone will have to explain to me again why it was better to set our rotation up and go 1-3 instead of leaving **** alone and going 2-2.

Danks would have beat the Indians.

We basically factored in a loss against the indians so we'd have a "better" chance against the twins. Its going to be a dogfight there, no matter what. the only game we won was floyd, who i believe pitched in his normal slot.

That is one thing I do not understand myself.

JB98
07-12-2009, 07:24 PM
Someone will have to explain to me again why it was better to set our rotation up and go 1-3 instead of leaving **** alone and going 2-2.

Danks would have beat the Indians.

We basically factored in a loss against the indians so we'd have a "better" chance against the twins. Its going to be a dogfight there, no matter what. the only game we won was floyd, who i believe pitched in his normal slot.

How do you know Danks would have beaten the Indians?

Danks career vs. Indians: 1-5, 5.62 ERA

http://www.baseball-reference.com/players/split.cgi?n1=danksjo01&year=Career&t=p

Zisk77
07-12-2009, 07:29 PM
The only difference IMO between the 2005 team and this years team is the 5th starter. Buehrle can't win every game, however Garland was a lot better in 2005 than Colon/Richards at 6-9 combined.

Many of the position players; Pods, Konerko, Dye, AJ, etc. are at least on par with their 2005 performance.

Kenny - do whatever it takes to get Roy Halladay. Trade Richards, Anderson and Fields. We need another starter and we will be fine. Move Pods to CF once "Q" is back and we'll be off to the races.

Go SOX!


I think you offer a peavy like package for Halladay. If they decline, fine. trade far less and get someone like Aaron Harang, Washburn, Garland, etc to fill the 5th spot. DO NOT mortgage the farm for Halladay. Win now & win in the future.

It's Dankerific
07-12-2009, 07:31 PM
How do you know Danks would have beaten the Indians?

Danks career vs. Indians: 1-5, 5.62 ERA

http://www.baseball-reference.com/players/split.cgi?n1=danksjo01&year=Career&t=p

We scored over 5.62 runs.

It was pretty obvious he was rusty in the first inning against the twins. Probably because he was on 6-days rest instead of his normal 5.

You want to pretend that we had our best chance with Richard on 3 days?

The Indians game was very winnable and we just punted.

I tell you what, I'm 100% sure it wouldnt have been WORSE.

PS, Danks is 10-16 at home, you going to stop pitching him at USCF too?

Tragg
07-12-2009, 07:32 PM
How do you know Danks would have beaten the Indians?

Danks career vs. Indians: 1-5, 5.62 ERA

http://www.baseball-reference.com/players/split.cgi?n1=danksjo01&year=Career&t=p
You don't know, but the argument for messing with the rotation was less than persuasive.
The real mistake was letting Carrasco pitch for 5 walks and 3 hits - that was completely unnecessary.

JB98
07-12-2009, 07:36 PM
We scored over 5.62 runs.

It was pretty obvious he was rusty in the first inning against the twins. Probably because he was on 6-days rest instead of his normal 5.

You want to pretend that we had our best chance with Richard on 3 days?

The Indians game was very winnable and we just punted.

I tell you what, I'm 100% sure it wouldnt have been WORSE.

PS, Danks is 10-16 at home, you going to stop pitching him at USCF too?

Danks this season vs. Cleveland: 0-1, 7.94 ERA.

http://www.baseball-reference.com/players/split.cgi?n1=danksjo01&year=2009&t=p

If Danks pitches Thursday, how do you know he wins that game?

I agree 100 percent with the decision to stack the best three starters on the team against Minnesota. Danks gave us a chance to win Friday. That game was tied in the seventh inning. The Sox could have won.

veeter
07-12-2009, 08:28 PM
I'm with the positive people. I love watcing this team, mainly because the young guys are really contributing. Scotty's been unbelievably great. I still truly believe they'll win the divsion. I really only counted on one win at the dome. Hey, it's tit for tat. We own the Twins at the Cell and they own the Sox up there. Rest up and go back to work. The Sox have the second half horses needed to win.

Boondock Saint
07-12-2009, 08:40 PM
http://i52.photobucket.com/albums/g29/bb4re/waterboy7.jpg

"Oh no, we suck again!"

I want to say that I can't believe people are bitching about losing our first series in a month and are talking about giving up. But I'm not surprised. Every loss is cause for panic, depression and misguided fury on here. This team is finally starting to put things together and now is the time to quit? Some people on here need to find another team to crap all over.

Baron
07-12-2009, 08:43 PM
I think you offer a peavy like package for Halladay. If they decline, fine. trade far less and get someone like Aaron Harang, Washburn, Garland, etc to fill the 5th spot. DO NOT mortgage the farm for Halladay. Win now & win in the future.


Ya that is what I would do to.This team can win it just needs some help to get them over the hump.

DickAllen72
07-12-2009, 09:11 PM
Why would the Blue Jays trade Rios? Seriously.
Ask their GM. It's been reported in numerous places that he is insisting that any team that wants Halliday must also take either Rios or Wells off their hands. Salary dump.

DickAllen72
07-12-2009, 09:17 PM
Who's paying them?
JR & Co.

Why aren't the Blue Jay a good team with all of the great player everyone wants?
Who are all these great players of which you speak? Halliday is a great pitcher. Rolen is an aging thirdbaseman but is having a great year and would look good in a Sox uniform for the next couple of years improving the defense at third base, providing good OBP and allowing Beckham to move to 2B where he belongs. Rios is having an off year but even at that is still head and shoulders above Anderson or Wise and I would expect him to return to his normal production in the future, which is very good.

Noneck
07-12-2009, 09:46 PM
JR & Co.


Who are all these great players of which you speak? Halliday is a great pitcher. Rolen is an aging thirdbaseman but is having a great year and would look good in a Sox uniform for the next couple of years improving the defense at third base, providing good OBP and allowing Beckham to move to 2B where he belongs. Rios is having an off year but even at that is still head and shoulders above Anderson or Wise and I would expect him to return to his normal production in the future, which is very good.

I would think there is a better chance of Christmas being moved to 8/25 than JR and Co picking up Rios and Rolens salaries.

Lip Man 1
07-12-2009, 09:53 PM
Nell:

I see you live in Bonita Springs...ever run into Luzinski?

-------------------

Voodoo:

I try to play the odds and I can't see the Sox winning out over Boston, the Yankees or Los Angeles. A short series gives them a better chance I guess but to me there are a lot of kids who would be in an extreme pressure situation. That usually doesn't end well.

Lip

SephClone89
07-12-2009, 09:53 PM
I'm with the positive people. I love watcing this team, mainly because the young guys are really contributing. Scotty's been unbelievably great. I still truly believe they'll win the divsion. I really only counted on one win at the dome. Hey, it's tit for tat. We own the Twins at the Cell and they own the Sox up there. Rest up and go back to work. The Sox have the second half horses needed to win.

This.

DickAllen72
07-12-2009, 09:55 PM
I would think there is a better chance of Christmas being moved to 8/25 than JR and Co picking up Rios and Rolens salaries.
You get what you pay for. If the Sox don't want them, we'll just have to be content with a .500 team this year and a bunch of holes the next couple of years to be filled with "potential".

Noneck
07-12-2009, 10:00 PM
You get what you pay for. If the Sox don't want them, we'll just have to be content with a .500 team this year and a bunch of holes the next couple of years to be filled with "potential".

Comeon, you know you can't spend a buck if you only have a half dollar.

DickAllen72
07-12-2009, 10:08 PM
Comeon, you know you can't spend a buck if you only have a half dollar.
True. But I think the Sox have a couple of bucks in their back pocket.

TDog
07-12-2009, 10:17 PM
I think it won't matter at this point.

Fans are not too happy with this team anyways.

Besides, there is more talent down there today to regroup than there was with that last white flag.

What an absolutely ridiculous post.

I probably shouldn't single you out because there are so many ridiculous posts here, and breaking down the flaws in your argument would only be tiresome.

Last year the white Sox, without Quentin and without Contreras, were swept by the Twins in the Metrodome late in the season, inspiring the Twins to celebrate as if they had just won the division. Of course, the Twins didn't win the division. They just whined about being cheated out of it. People who are insisting the season is over with two-and-a-half months left in the season, with Contreras pitching his best baseball in years and Quentin apparently ready for a healthy second half are overreacting.

I'm not happy the Sox lost two out of three in Minnesota, but the season isn't over. If you make assumptions on a baseball team based on one week, you have a real good chance of looking like an idiot two weeks later.

People who want to trade the veterans for prospects are overreacting. Even if I knew the White Sox weren't going to win the division, I wouldn't want to trade the veterans for prospects. I don't think any team should be allowed to after mid-June anyway.

Most of us who drop in to WSI will miss the White Sox when this season finally ends, but that's still months away. Try to enjoy it while you can.

Zisk77
07-13-2009, 12:28 AM
Nell:

I see you live in Bonita Springs...ever run into Luzinski?

-------------------

Voodoo:

I try to play the odds and I can't see the Sox winning out over Boston, the Yankees or Los Angeles. A short series gives them a better chance I guess but to me there are a lot of kids who would be in an extreme pressure situation. That usually doesn't end well.

Lip


I bet that would hurt....rimshot:D:

chisoxfanatic
07-13-2009, 12:48 AM
A short series gives them a better chance I guess but to me there are a lot of kids who would be in an extreme pressure situation. That usually doesn't end well.

Lip
That's exactly what a ton of critics said before this year's NHL playoffs about the Blackhawks, and look at how far they went!

LoveYourSuit
07-13-2009, 01:14 AM
The BS Metrodome excuse needs to stop.

This whole nonenesnes that "we can't win there" is complete BS.

In 2005 we went 6-3 at that ballpark.

Good teams find a way to win at the park despite all the crap that happens there. The NYY just got done sweeping the Twins there before we got there.


So let's stop using this excuse, please. We say we are a good team, let's play like one regardless of where and who we play.

kitekrazy
07-13-2009, 01:28 AM
The BS Metrodome excuse needs to stop.

This whole nonenesnes that "we can't win there" is complete BS.

In 2005 we went 6-3 at that ballpark.

Good teams find a way to win at the park despite all the crap that happens there. The NYY just got done sweeping the Twins there before we got there.


So let's stop using this excuse, please. We say we are a good team, let's play like one regardless of where and who we play.

Yeah but that was 2005. They were like 6-3 in just about everyone's park.

Nellie_Fox
07-13-2009, 01:30 AM
nonenesnes:dunce:

oeo
07-13-2009, 01:38 AM
Nell:

I see you live in Bonita Springs...ever run into Luzinski?

-------------------

Voodoo:

I try to play the odds and I can't see the Sox winning out over Boston, the Yankees or Los Angeles. A short series gives them a better chance I guess but to me there are a lot of kids who would be in an extreme pressure situation. That usually doesn't end well.

Lip

Experience is overrated, just ask the Tampa Bay Rays.

I think we could get through LA, and the Yankees pitching staff will once again not win them a title or even a pennant.

LITTLE NELL
07-13-2009, 06:06 AM
Nell:

I see you live in Bonita Springs...ever run into Luzinski?

-------------------

Voodoo:

I try to play the odds and I can't see the Sox winning out over Boston, the Yankees or Los Angeles. A short series gives them a better chance I guess but to me there are a lot of kids who would be in an extreme pressure situation. That usually doesn't end well.

Lip
Lip, have'nt met the Bull, but have met Mike Ditka, Steve Trout, played 9 holes with Johnny Bench and 18 holes with old timer Ike Delock. Met oldtime hockey player Bobby Baun of the Maple Leafs. Rick Miller (BoSox) and Joe Pignatano(Dodgers) live at the golf community that I work part time at.
When I worked at the Naples Beach Hotel we hosted a sports celebrity golf tourny and met Mikita, Fisk, Gervin. Lendl among others.

Red Barchetta
07-13-2009, 10:13 AM
I'm with the positive people. I love watcing this team, mainly because the young guys are really contributing. Scotty's been unbelievably great. I still truly believe they'll win the divsion. I really only counted on one win at the dome. Hey, it's tit for tat. We own the Twins at the Cell and they own the Sox up there. Rest up and go back to work. The Sox have the second half horses needed to win.

Plus, the SOX are only one of four teams in the AL, along with the Yankees, Red Sox and Angles, who have a winning record on the road. The Twins are 28-20 at home and 17-24 on the road. The Tiger are 27-13 at home and 21-26 on the road. I think the SOX have more balance than either of these teams and are one pitcher away from taking over the division. The top of our order is exciting to watch again and once Quentin is back in the middle of the lineup, we should be that much better because we are swapping Quentin for either Anderson or Wise on a regular basis.

It's the crappy 6-9 production out of the fifth starter spot that's stopping the SOX from taking over the division. We have a tough schedule after the break, so hopefully Kenny can pull off a trade to help sooner than later.

Lip Man 1
07-13-2009, 01:08 PM
OEO:

We just apparently have different opinions.

We'll see if the Sox even get in that position. Like I said I try to play the odds in these things. They have a very difficult second half schedule and have been inconsistent so far this year, perhaps despite the attendance controversy Kenny will make a deal to get another pitcher and another hitting outfielder and that'll make the difference.

We'll see.

Lip

hawkjt
07-13-2009, 01:51 PM
I really like this team.
I love having a productive proto-typical leadoff guy like Pods.
I love having a SS who is on track to hit.280 with 20+ hrs and 85rbis...and who has a gun with great range.
I love having the most productive rightfielder in the league hitting third for us...on track for .300 40hrs,110rbis and continue to catch everything hit his way with a gun for an arm.
I love having a sneakily most productive DH in the league who is on track for 35hrs 100 rbis,and oba of .400....and makes every pitcher sweat and work their but off in front of another .300 power hitter.
I love having a 5th place hitter who is a great glove at 1st,is on track for .300, 35hr,and 115rbis...
I love having a catcher hitting 6th.. who is hitting over .300 ,and is very good handling our pitchers .
I will love having a leftfielder hitting 7th(gasp) who was league MVP for 5 months last year, who can hit.300,20 hrs, and 50 rbis, the second half.
I love having a twins style piranha,speedy ,contact hitting second baseman with great range to get on base for..
Our 9th place hitter, who is improving at his new position,and is squaring up more balls on the bat than anyone in a hot lineup the last month.

A rotation of Burls,Danks,Gavin,Jose and Clay is good enough to win the pennant. Burls,Danks,Gavin and Jose are the best four in the division..and any combo of these 4 could win in playoffs..

Bullpen is full of power arms that tend to flourish later in the season as the bats slow down...

Ozzie has been there and done that championship thing, and kenny knows how to add a key piece when necessary.

I am much more optimistic than I was in the spring.
I look at a lineup with 4 guys hitting .300 and wonder when that has happened for the sox?
I will go to war with this lineup anyday...
Pods
Alexei
Carlos
JD
Thome
PK
AJ
Getz
Gordo

where is the weak link in that lineup?
More speed than ever, with only a minor drop in power.
Love it.

jdm2662
07-13-2009, 11:07 PM
OEO:

We just apparently have different opinions.

We'll see if the Sox even get in that position. Like I said I try to play the odds in these things. They have a very difficult second half schedule and have been inconsistent so far this year, perhaps despite the attendance controversy Kenny will make a deal to get another pitcher and another hitting outfielder and that'll make the difference.

We'll see.

Lip

The 93 White Sox had the same number of wins as the 2009 Sox do at the all-star break (45), and hardly had many tested vets. They also had a revolving door at the number five pitcher's spot until they picked up Belcher. At best, he was just average. They had an unknown young rookie in Bere, it was Alvaerz's first full year as a starter, and Fernandez had yet to prove himself. . Sure, they had a Cy Young candidate and an MVP candidate, but it wasn't like they were a sure thing, either. We seem to forget that. They had an awesome second half, and won the division rather easily.

The Sox just lost their first series since the DET series at home. That was a month ago. It was bound to happen eventually. Let's see how things play out in the second half. Experience is the least of my concern.

Lip Man 1
07-13-2009, 11:19 PM
JDM:

The 1993 White Sox also had Frank Thomas just entering his prime (he'd have an MVP season), they had a bona fide ace in Jack McDowell (he'd win the Cy Young). They had a legit lead off man in Tim Raines, they had a Gold Glove 3rd baseman and power hitter in Robin Ventura, they had a lights-out closer in Roberto Hernandez and they had solid vets up and down the lineup in Joey Cora, Ozzie Guillen, Ellis Burks, Bo Jackson, George Bell and Lance Johnson (a top center fielder) to go along with tested vets in Thomas, Ventura, McDowell, Alex Fernandez (all guys who had at least 2 1/2 years in the bigs and almost immediate success)

(Bold indicates things this team doesn't have...)

They had great starting pitching (four guys in double figue wins) and three guys with at least 20 stolen bases.

I'm not saying this to run down the 2009 team but to try to compare them to the 1993 team is foolishness.

And I personally value experience and actually knowing how to play above other items.

Lip

Zisk77
07-13-2009, 11:27 PM
JDM:

The 1993 White Sox also had Frank Thomas just entering his prime (he'd have an MVP season), they had a bona fide ace in Jack McDowell (he'd win the Cy Young). They had a legit lead off man in Tim Raines, they had a Gold Glove 3rd baseman and power hitter in Robin Ventura, they had a lights-out closer in Roberto Hernandez and they had solid vets up and down the lineup in Joey Cora, Ozzie Guillen, Ellis Burks, Bo Jackson, George Bell and Lance Johnson (a top center fielder) to go along with tested vets in Thomas, Ventura, McDowell, Alex Fernandez (all guys who had at least 3 1/2 years in the bigs)

(Bold indicates things this team doesn't have...)

They had great starting pitching (four guys in double figue wins) and three guys with at least 20 stolen bases.

I'm not saying this to run down the 2009 team but to try to compare them to the 1993 team is foolishness.

And I personally value experience and actually knowing how to play above other items.

Lip


Joey Cora wasn't a vet. I believe he wasn't even slated to start the season at 2b but Grebeck got injured at the end of spring training. But yep that was a great team. Why the hell didn't we re-sign Ellis Burks?

Lip Man 1
07-13-2009, 11:32 PM
Zisk:

As usual the Sox felt that Burks wanted too much money and too long a contract.

And Cora had spent five years in the bigs before 1993.

Lip

jdm2662
07-13-2009, 11:49 PM
JDM:

The 1993 White Sox also had Frank Thomas just entering his prime (he'd have an MVP season), they had a bona fide ace in Jack McDowell (he'd win the Cy Young). They had a legit lead off man in Tim Raines, they had a Gold Glove 3rd baseman and power hitter in Robin Ventura, they had a lights-out closer in Roberto Hernandez and they had solid vets up and down the lineup in Joey Cora, Ozzie Guillen, Ellis Burks, Bo Jackson, George Bell and Lance Johnson (a top center fielder) to go along with tested vets in Thomas, Ventura, McDowell, Alex Fernandez (all guys who had at least 2 1/2 years in the bigs and almost immediate success)

(Bold indicates things this team doesn't have...)

They had great starting pitching (four guys in double figue wins) and three guys with at least 20 stolen bases.

I'm not saying this to run down the 2009 team but to try to compare them to the 1993 team is foolishness.

And I personally value experience and actually knowing how to play above other items.

Lip

It is going to take a lot to convince me you were overally confident at the all-star break considering despite all you said, they were just 45-41 and lucky to be in a crappy division. And, you aren't exactly known of being overally optimistic about the Sox's future. :D:

Bere was an unknown rookie at #4. You say experience is a big thing to you. Well, did you seriously think he was going to hold up? They had a revolving door at #5 before they got Belcher. I'm not going to bother to try and name all them. However, I don't doubt you can. Jackson and Bell didn't exactly have great seasons (hell, did either one of them hit .230???), and Burks came off a major back injury. Plenty of concerns there. Yes, in the end, they got it together.

Just to note, I'm not bashing you at all. I just want your honost opinion going into the break about that team. It's an interesting topic, i think.

Tragg
07-14-2009, 12:05 AM
It is going to take a lot to convince me you were overally confident at the all-star break considering despite all you said, they were just 45-41 and lucky to be in a crappy division. And, you aren't exactly known of being overally optimistic about the Sox's future.
You could say that about the 1983 team too - we were barely over .500 at the break.
But in 1993 we were underachieving, as we often did with LaMonte as manager. That team was far more talented. It had some offensive holes - Karkovice and Guillen - but it was really talented in most areas (and those 2 were defensive stalwarts). It was easily the 2nd to best team in baseball that year.

This team is playing about as well as it can.

Lip Man 1
07-14-2009, 12:38 PM
I have to agree with Tragg's comment.

I'm not trying to rip on the 09 team but the talent gap between 93 and 83 compared to 09 is pretty large.

They can still win the division but it must be noted this is a pretty average division.

Lip

voodoochile
07-14-2009, 01:03 PM
I have to agree with Tragg's comment.

I'm not trying to rip on the 09 team but the talent gap between 93 and 83 compared to 09 is pretty large.

They can still win the division but it must be noted this is a pretty average division.

Lip

1993 V 2009 Starters by position, player with the edge in bold

C Karkovice V AJ. Offensively AJ kills Karko, but defensively Karko was better. I give the edge to AJ

1B Frank V Paulie This is a no-brainer. As good as Paulie is, Frank in his prime was one of the most feared hitters ever.

2B Cora V Getz probably a wash. Solid defenders with light bats.

3B Ventura V Beckham again, a no-brainer at this stage of the game. Robin in his prime was a total stud. Beckham is a rookie still learning his position.

SS Ozzie V Ramirez I give the edge to TCM because of his plus bat. Ozzie was a superior SS but not dramatically so, just was more seasoned.

LF Raines V TCQ Rock was a great player, but TCQ is something special. If TCQ cannot come back healthy it dramatically changes the evaluation. Raines is clearly better than BA or Wise who for all purposes would replace TCQ in the lineup

CF Johnson V Pods Close to a wash. Johnson was a better defender,so he gets the edge.

RF Burks V Dye This is a no-brainer the other way. Burks had a nice season, but Dye looks like the team MVP at this point in time

DH Bell V Thome George Bell had an awful season that year and then whined about his PT in the playoffs. Thome is still pounding them out

SP 1993 had the edge but there is plenty of pitching talent on the 2009 squad.

RP 2009 clearly has a better bullpen, IMO.

Bench 1993 because 2009's bench is very weak.

Overall, 1993 was a better team, but not as dramatically as you portray it, IMO. Of course I'm counting on TCQ coming back and healthy and performing. If that doesn't happen, 1993 clearly crushes 2009.
RF

TDog
07-14-2009, 03:25 PM
1993 V 2009 Starters by position, player with the edge in bold....

SS Ozzie V Ramirez I give the edge to TCM because of his plus bat. Ozzie was a superior SS but not dramatically so, just was more seasoned. ...

I can't disagree with anything in the post. I just want to point out that Guillen played 133 games at shortstop in 1993 and made 16 errors. The year he won his Golden Glove he made 17 errors, his lowest total for a season in which he played more than 150 games.

I'm not saying he wasn't a very good defensive shortstop. In fact he was. But he was a very good defensive shortstop who committed more than 20 errors in a few seasons. Really, that's not a lot. Of course, Robin Yount made more than 40 errors at shortstop in one season, and he's in the Hall of Fame.

Sometimes I wonder if Guillen sees in Ramirez the player he would have been if he were a better hitter.