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View Full Version : * Official * 7-9-09 Comeback train just runs out of steam Post-Game Thread


doublem23
07-09-2009, 05:49 PM
I guess that's to be expected when you give up 9 runs in the 1st 3 innings. At least they made it kind of interesting.

Oh well. On to Minnesota.

Patrick134
07-09-2009, 05:50 PM
Another nice series win, now on to Minnesota to do the same!

kittle42
07-09-2009, 05:50 PM
Great job, Richard and Carrasco!

Bartolo likely resurfaced after Shoppach's grand slam.

thomas35forever
07-09-2009, 05:50 PM
Just too big a deficit to overcome. Now it's on to the Dome of Horrors for the weekend.

LoveYourSuit
07-09-2009, 05:50 PM
Kenny better get as many of those 50 cents he can put together and find us a 5th starter.

Clayton Richard = Boone Logan bad.

hi im skot
07-09-2009, 05:51 PM
Clayton Richard still isn't the answer.

EuroSox35
07-09-2009, 05:51 PM
Here is a post I prewrote at the start of the 6th inning. That's how mad I was at how the Sox handled the game today:

Everything I was pissed at the Sox doing ended up costing them today, all with how they handled the pitching:

-Richard. The trend was pretty obvious, if the Sox didn't trade him shortly after the Peavy deal his value would plummet and the Sox would be screwed. For a few starts now he's shown nothing that says he's deserved a start.
-Carrasco. I know he has nice stats but he is a guy you bring in when the score is already 9-2, not when he was brought in. Another one of 'Ozzie's guys'
-Poreda. For weeks I've been pleading the Sox to give the kid a start. Given the info about Richard above I think it would've made a lot of sense.
-Dotel. Right when I saw him warming I knew this game was done. I actually prewrote this post because I could see this coming. Bringing Dotel in the 6th is way too early and is a terrible idea. It means you have to rely on multiple bullpen guys to all be on, and with the chance Dotel gets out of the 6th with no issues, the 3 last innings of a game are very long and are very hard outs to get. And he's just given up a run. Awesome

The fact that an average fan like me can see all this and see it unfold before his eyes (1st guessing, not 2nd guessing) really makes me question the competence of the people running this team. It felt pretty easy to me to see this all coming and now it's cost us a big game we should've won.

And the front office is going to call out the fans? HA.

Ozzie and co. completely gave this game away today. How can I be the only one mad? Are you really going to respond to this one with 'oh well, nice series win!'

LoveYourSuit
07-09-2009, 05:51 PM
Great job, Richard and Carrasco!

Bartolo likely resurfaced after Shoppach's grand slam.


Bartolo looked at his competition for the 5th starter and decided to take it easy and dissapear.

Then he shows up in Charlotte today just in time to re-claim his old job.

MtGrnwdSoxFan
07-09-2009, 05:53 PM
Clayton Richard still isn't the answer.

:Richard:

"If the question is 'Who is the starter who just blew his chance at staying with the rotation long-term?', then yes, I am!"

JermaineDye05
07-09-2009, 05:53 PM
You won't win too many games when you walk 10 guys.

central44
07-09-2009, 05:53 PM
The team fought back after falling behind 9-2...they didn't pull it off but you can't be too upset by the effort today.

russ99
07-09-2009, 05:53 PM
Bartolo looked at his competition for the 5th starter and decided to take it easy and dissapear.

Then he shows up in Charlotte today just in time to re-claim his old job.

Sheesh, after the first 3 innings I started to wonder if/when Freddy Garcia would be ready...

LoveYourSuit
07-09-2009, 05:54 PM
:Richard:

"I am for 'Who is the starter who just blew his chance at staying with the rotation long-term?' "


I would make this clown drive to Minn. No way is he jumping on my charter. Make his ass walk.

Boondock Saint
07-09-2009, 05:54 PM
It wasn't the defenses fault? :shrug:

GoGoCrede
07-09-2009, 05:54 PM
Well, they tried. Impressive that they scored as many runs as they did while being down.

MtGrnwdSoxFan
07-09-2009, 05:55 PM
I would make this clown drive to Minn. No way is he jumping on my charter. Make his ass walk.

The only charter I would allow him on is a one-way to Charlotte, NC.

LoveYourSuit
07-09-2009, 05:56 PM
The team fought back after falling behind 9-2...they didn't pull it off but you can't be too upset by the effort today.

I love posts like this. There are no such things as moral victories.


The effort sucked today by the pitching. 10 walks is little league material.

LoveYourSuit
07-09-2009, 05:57 PM
Well, they tried. Impressive that they scored as many runs as they did while being down.


Yeah, let's take them out for ice cream now :rolleyes:

hi im skot
07-09-2009, 05:59 PM
Here is a post I prewrote at the start of the 6th inning. That's how mad I was at how the Sox handled the game today:

Everything I was pissed at the Sox doing ended up costing them today, all with how they handled the pitching:

-Richard. The trend was pretty obvious, if the Sox didn't trade him shortly after the Peavy deal his value would plummet and the Sox would be screwed. For a few starts now he's shown nothing that says he's deserved a start.
-Carrasco. I know he has nice stats but he is a guy you bring in when the score is already 9-2, not when he was brought in. Another one of 'Ozzie's guys'
-Poreda. For weeks I've been pleading the Sox to give the kid a start. Given the info about Richard above I think it would've made a lot of sense.
-Dotel. Right when I saw him warming I knew this game was done. I actually prewrote this post because I could see this coming. Bringing Dotel in the 6th is way too early and is a terrible idea. It means you have to rely on multiple bullpen guys to all be on, and with the chance Dotel gets out of the 6th with no issues, the 3 last innings of a game are very long and are very hard outs to get. And he's just given up a run. Awesome

The fact that an average fan like me can see all this and see it unfold before his eyes (1st guessing, not 2nd guessing) really makes me question the competence of the people running this team. It felt pretty easy to me to see this all coming and now it's cost us a big game we should've won.

And the front office is going to call out the fans? HA.

Ozzie and co. completely gave this game away today. How can I be the only one mad? Are you really going to respond to this one with 'oh well, nice series win!'

There are a lot of things wrong with this.

JB98
07-09-2009, 06:00 PM
The amount of Richard hate here is a shame. Everytime somebody hits a bad stretch do we have to call for that pitcher to be sent to the minors or DFA?

Definitely a poor outing today. Neither Richard nor Carrasco threw strikes, and that put the Sox in a hole they just couldn't get out of. The Sox had chances, but they just couldn't get the one big hit to get the game tied.

Shake it off and get ready for tomorrow.

GoGoCrede
07-09-2009, 06:00 PM
Yeah, let's take them out for ice cream now :rolleyes:

Sounds like fun to me, buddy. :D:

doublem23
07-09-2009, 06:02 PM
It wasn't the defenses fault? :shrug:

They didn't help, but the Sox did walk 10 guys today.

soxfan21
07-09-2009, 06:02 PM
There are a lot of things wrong with this.


Agreed.

doublem23
07-09-2009, 06:03 PM
Ozzie and co. completely gave this game away today. How can I be the only one mad? Are you really going to respond to this one with 'oh well, nice series win!'

:shrug:

They've played really, really well the last few weeks.

Even the best teams lose 60 games a year.

Whatever.

LoveYourSuit
07-09-2009, 06:04 PM
The amount of Richard hate here is a shame. Everytime somebody hits a bad stretch do we have to call for that pitcher to be sent to the minors or DFA?

Definitely a poor outing today. Neither Richard nor Carrasco threw strikes, and that put the Sox in a hole they just couldn't get out of. The Sox had chances, but they just couldn't get the one big hit to get the game tied.

Shake it off and get ready for tomorrow.


Problem is Richard has been bad for most of the year. He had about 3 straight starts where that was the exception. And I think he was bad last year too.


I think fans have a reason not to be thrilled about Richard's tenure so far as a White Sox pitcher.

He might need to go down to AAA to work on his issues here. All he has done is burn the litte bit of stock he was worth for a potential trade. We need to hide him while some people still think he is a legit prospect.

Foulke You
07-09-2009, 06:05 PM
The amount of Richard hate here is a shame. Everytime somebody hits a bad stretch do we have to call for that pitcher to be sent to the minors or DFA?
It's a tough call to make right now to leave Richard in the rotation. He has had some flashes of being a good starter but is too rough around the edges right now to be counted on if we are serious about winning the Central this year. What is more alarming about Richard is the lack of innings pitched in his starts this year. I can live with some mediocre outings from a #5 starter but when he starts having 2 inning and 3 inning outings strung in a row, it is time to make a change. Our bullpen will be in shambles if that is allowed to continue. We need at least 5 innings out of him and lately, he just hasn't been able to do that.

LoveYourSuit
07-09-2009, 06:05 PM
Sounds like fun to me, buddy. :D:


Actually, I would love to have a 3 scoops of Butter Pecan right now.

Yum! :D:

GoGoCrede
07-09-2009, 06:06 PM
Actually, I would love to have a 3 scoops of Butter Pecan right now.

Yum! :D:

But will you make Richard pay for his own? :tongue: Sign me up for a scoop of chocolate.

Sargeant79
07-09-2009, 06:08 PM
Richard is in the wrong role right now. With the exception of today, he has been good, sometimes outstanding even, for a few innings at a time. Long relief would make sense to me.

But I don't see how you can really have him start again after his last few outings. Give up some runs...fine. But even with a fifth starter you really need to be able to count on about 5 serviceable innings each time out. Richard hasn't demonstrated that he is able to do that this year.

Lip Man 1
07-09-2009, 06:09 PM
Very quick summery for Thursday's game:

Clayton Richard = White Sox loss.

Richard hasn't pitched six innings in seven of his past eight starts and seems to be getting worse not better. That's the key issue there isn't any improvement nothing to hang your hat on.

I understand JB's feelings but I remember writing after his first start last year against Texas that he has potential but is being rushed. It's hurting him and it certainly hurting the team. You simply can't keep trotting him out there to lose games in a divisional race with a much tougher second half schedule.

The question is are there are viable options? The key word is "viable" I don't know if I'd group Colon, Carrasco or Garcia in that category.

Lip

LITTLE NELL
07-09-2009, 06:11 PM
Can't be too dissapointed with todays loss considering that we are back over .500 and in the division hunt but yet that lack of killer instinct rears its ugly head again. We had KC down after the first 2 games and came out with a split and now we let the down and out Tribe win on get-away-day. Bothersome.

SSrep
07-09-2009, 06:12 PM
There are a lot of things wrong with this.

Absolutely agree

LoveYourSuit
07-09-2009, 06:13 PM
Very quick summery for Thursday's game:

Clayton Richard = White Sox loss.

Richard hasn't pitched six innings in seven of his past eight starts and seems to be getting worse not better. That's the key issue there isn't any improvement nothing to hang your hat on.

I understand JB's feelings but I remember writing after his first start last year against Texas that he has potential but is being rushed. It's hurting him and it certainly hurting the team. You simply can't keep trotting him out there to lose games in a divisional race with a much tougher second half schedule.

The question is are there are viable options? The key word is "viable" I don't know if I'd group Colon, Carrasco or Garcia in that category.

Lip


Lip,

And exposing him right now is killing his trade value where you can't even package him right now to try to get a legit starter in return.

JB98
07-09-2009, 06:13 PM
It's a tough call to make right now to leave Richard in the rotation. He has had some flashes of being a good starter but is too rough around the edges right now to be counted on if we are serious about winning the Central this year. What is more alarming about Richard is the lack of innings pitched in his starts this year. I can live with some mediocre outings from a #5 starter but when he starts having 2 inning and 3 inning outings strung in a row, it is time to make a change. Our bullpen will be in shambles if that is allowed to continue. We need at least 5 innings out of him and lately, he just hasn't been able to do that.

All fair points. You're offering sensible criticism. Not everyone here is. Richard's not throwing near enough strikes, and that's the problem. The question is, do we have a better option? Would Poreda do better? Not sure. He's not exactly a strike-thrower at this stage of his career either.

The people who think Richard is worse than Boone Logan are way over the top. In May, nobody wanted Richard included in the Peavy deal. Now, some are ready to tie him to a chair and place him on the Eastbound lane of the Dan Ryan. It's silly.

LoveYourSuit
07-09-2009, 06:16 PM
Can't be too dissapointed with todays loss considering that we have are back over .500 and in the division hunt but yet that lack of killer instinct rears its ugly head again. We had KC down after the first 2 games and came out with a split and now we let the down and out Tribe win on get-away-day. Bothersome.

Excellent point.

Much has been made about the attendance issues and lack of fan support. Games like today will go a long way the wrong way from trying to correct that problem. Killer instinct is what we need. We need to start tearing into this schedule (of bad opponents) and create a buzz and hype for this ball club.

doublem23
07-09-2009, 06:21 PM
Excellent point.

Much has been made about the attendance issues and lack of fan support. Games like today will go a long way the wrong way from trying to correct that problem. Killer instinct is what we need. We need to start tearing into this schedule (of bad opponents) and create a buzz and hype for this ball club.

"Killer instinct" is B.S. Just a few weeks ago, the Sox were losing the 1st game of a series and then winning the next 2. Win series, who gives a crap?

The Sox scored 8 runs today, that's good enough to win probaly 9 out of 10 games.

If people can't come to grips with the fact that sometimes baseball teams just lose, then they probably need to pay attention to a more dumbed-down sport like football.

Foulke You
07-09-2009, 06:25 PM
All fair points. You're offering sensible criticism. Not everyone here is. Richard's not throwing near enough strikes, and that's the problem. The question is, do we have a better option? Would Poreda do better? Not sure. He's not exactly a strike-thrower at this stage of his career either.

The people who think Richard is worse than Boone Logan are way over the top. In May, nobody wanted Richard included in the Peavy deal. Now, some are ready to tie him to a chair and place him on the Eastbound lane of the Dan Ryan. It's silly.
I agree that the Boone Logan comparison is not a good one. I like Richard's stuff quite a bit and don't see him being quite as wild as Logan. He has a great fastball and solid breaking pitches but as is the case with a lot of young pitchers, he struggles with his command which has made him the victim of "the big inning" which he hasn't been able to stay out of lately.

I agree that Poreda might not be any better in the #5 role due to his lack of secondary pitches. A lot of his breaking balls are "get me overs" as Hawk pointed out in today's broadcast. The fact that we don't have a viable option could very well keep Clayton in the rotation. If Bartolo can find command of his breaking pitches again, he *could* be what the doctor ordered in that 5 hole. For the first month or so of the season, Colon was giving us what we needed. It could be that the Sox will need to look outside the organization for starting pitching if they want this 5 starter spot addressed.

chisoxfanatic
07-09-2009, 06:26 PM
Richard clearly needs more time in the minors. I hope Colon is ready or Kenny finds an arm via a trade.

I have to give some props to the fan in Section 151, Row 10 who was constantly yelling out "Go Getz Go!" and directing his entire area in singing "Your Love" and yelling "Bacon!" whenever Bacon came to bat. Was this guy any of you?

johnnyg83
07-09-2009, 06:28 PM
"Killer instinct" is B.S. Just a few weeks ago, the Sox were losing the 1st game of a series and then winning the next 2. Win series, who gives a crap?

The Sox scored 8 runs today, that's good enough to win probaly 9 out of 10 games.

If people can't come to grips with the fact that sometimes baseball teams just lose, then they probably need to pay attention to a more dumbed-down sport like football.

I agree. Winning 5 of 6 against the Indians is killing the competition.

kittle42
07-09-2009, 06:28 PM
I think the notion of "killer instinct" applies less in baseball than in any other sport. Just too many games.

KyWhiSoxFan
07-09-2009, 06:32 PM
Richard either needs to be in the bullpen or sent down to Charlotte to work on developing more pitches. If he can't develop at least one more pitch, he is a 2-inning reliever the rest of his career.

Keeping him as a starter in the majors is a fruitless exercise. He can't go long into games, meaning every time he starts he taxes the bulllpen. Give either Poreda or Torres a chance to start and end the 2009 experiment of Richard as a starter. He's not ready.

KMcMahon817
07-09-2009, 06:39 PM
Richard either needs to be in the bullpen or sent down to Charlotte to work on developing more pitches. If he can't develop at least one more pitch, he is a 2-inning reliever the rest of his career.

Keeping him as a starter in the majors is a fruitless exercise. He can't go long into games, meaning every time he starts he taxes the bulllpen. Give either Poreda or Torres a chance to start and end the 2009 experiment of Richard as a starter. He's not ready.


This is something that has not been discussed much. Why not give Torres a start or two to see if he is as good as his AAA stats make him look? I am not necessarily for sending Clayton to AAA, but if thats what Kenny thinks he needs in order to get his issues resolved, why not give Torres a shot, I would think that he deserves one. While I think that Poreda will be a front of line starter in the future, he would probably need to make a few starts in AAA to be stretched out before he could make a start here, and that leaves a hole in the pen. Halladay would sure look good..:wink:

russ99
07-09-2009, 06:42 PM
Richard is in the wrong role right now. With the exception of today, he has been good, sometimes outstanding even, for a few innings at a time. Long relief would make sense to me.

But I don't see how you can really have him start again after his last few outings. Give up some runs...fine. But even with a fifth starter you really need to be able to count on about 5 serviceable innings each time out. Richard hasn't demonstrated that he is able to do that this year.

Last year too. As much as Ozzie and Coop want to turn him into Gavin Floyd pt. 2, he just doesn't seem to have the stuff or makeup for a starter.

JB98
07-09-2009, 06:42 PM
I've never seen Torres pitch. Maybe he's not considered a prospect. Whisler has had good AAA numbers, too, and I wasn't impressed when he was called up.

I assume there's a reason Torres hasn't gotten a shot. Does anyone have more knowledge about him?

KMcMahon817
07-09-2009, 06:47 PM
I've never seen Torres pitch. Maybe he's not considered a prospect. Whisler has had good AAA numbers, too, and I wasn't impressed when he was called up.

I assume there's a reason Torres hasn't gotten a shot. Does anyone have more knowledge about him?


He was the only Knight named to the AAA all star team. Not that that says a whole lot, but he must be doing something right.

JB98
07-09-2009, 06:52 PM
He was the only Knight named to the AAA all star team. Not that that says a whole lot, but he must be doing something right.

No question, his numbers at Charlotte are good. You just wonder whether his stuff translates to potential big-league success. I have no idea. That's why I'm asking if anybody knows.

Tragg
07-09-2009, 06:56 PM
Why is Carrasco left in there for 5 walks and several hits?
We had an off day Monday and the pen was rested.
"Play to win the game"

JB98
07-09-2009, 06:58 PM
Why is Carrasco left in there for 5 walks and several hits?
We had an off day Monday and the pen was rested.
"Play to win the game"

He didn't want to blow out the whole bullpen with the series against Minnesota on deck.

Tragg
07-09-2009, 06:59 PM
He didn't want to blow out the whole bullpen with the series against Minnesota on deck.
It's not blowing the whole bullpen. They're rested; pitch them an inning or 2 each, which is what he did anyway. It's not like we were facing Grienke and a comeback was near impossible - it was the Toons staff.

JB98
07-09-2009, 07:05 PM
It's not blowing the whole bullpen. They're rested; pitch them an inning or 2 each, which is what he did anyway. It's not like we were facing Grienke and a comeback was near impossible - it was the Toons staff.

Well, we needed an inning or two out of Carrasco. It was a bad inning or two, but it was an inning or two nonetheless.

Do you have to be so pissed off after EVERY loss? It's not always Guillen's fault. Sometimes, this team just plays bad. They've been hovering around
.500 all year for a reason.

Dick Allen
07-09-2009, 07:46 PM
As many have mentioned, it's not even so much that Richard can't win games, it's that he taxes the bullpen every time out, which affects the next game or two. He needs to be taken out of the rotation come hell or high water.

SOXfnNlansing
07-09-2009, 07:48 PM
It was a great game to hear on the radio. I was proud to see them comeback within a run.

thedudeabides
07-09-2009, 07:53 PM
Well, we needed an inning or two out of Carrasco. It was a bad inning or two, but it was an inning or two nonetheless.

Do you have to be so pissed off after EVERY loss? It's not always Guillen's fault. Sometimes, this team just plays bad. They've been hovering around
.500 all year for a reason.


I hear you. Carrasco is our long man, and they had to try to get a couple of innings out of him. Unfortunately, he had nothing. I get the sense he may be going through a dead arm period. And Clayton was on three days rest. That was a bad combination.

Good thing is we won't need a 5th starter for a while, so they have time to figure out what to do. I know it won't be a popular sentiment, but I don't think it's time to throw Richard out of the rotation yet. They have about a week and a half to get him straightened out. If they don't think they can, then time to move on to plan B.

veeter
07-09-2009, 10:56 PM
As bad as Clayton was, I was just as dissappointed in jack ass Dotel giving up the run, just as the Sox got within one. I just don't like that guy at all.

Jim Shorts
07-09-2009, 11:08 PM
As bad as Clayton was, I was just as dissappointed in jack ass Dotel giving up the run, just as the Sox got within one. I just don't like that guy at all.

At all?

You're talking about someone that's been far better than average for the role. He's got a ton of K's and has worked his arse off.

If you don't like him at all, then you've missed a bunch.

palehozenychicty
07-09-2009, 11:37 PM
It's a loss. Things happen. They move up north tomorrow.

BadBobbyJenks
07-09-2009, 11:42 PM
First time I ever watched an entire game from the fan deck, not bad.

I was really confused as to why Ozzie took out Poreda to put in Dotel. Poreda's slider looked the best I have ever seen it. Choo just buckled.

You just cant walk 8 people in the first 3 innings of a game.



Oh and Richard > Peavy

dakotasox
07-10-2009, 12:00 AM
At all?

You're talking about someone that's been far better than average for the role. He's got a ton of K's and has worked his arse off.

If you don't like him at all, then you've missed a bunch.

I don't like him that much either. It seems like he gives up lots of dingers, but he is still better than most other teams 6th or 7th inning guy.

guillensdisciple
07-10-2009, 04:35 PM
First time I ever watched an entire game from the fan deck, not bad.

I was really confused as to why Ozzie took out Poreda to put in Dotel. Poreda's slider looked the best I have ever seen it. Choo just buckled.

You just cant walk 8 people in the first 3 innings of a game.



Oh and Richard > Peavy

Richard> Bedard.

Remember that discussion. Man, we can be so dumb sometime.