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View Full Version : Who would you rather beat: The Indians or the Twins?


spawn
07-09-2009, 01:45 PM
I'm still surprised he was pitching on short rest.

JB98
07-09-2009, 01:47 PM
I'm still surprised he was pitching on short rest.

They did that to set the rotation for the Twins. They want Danks, Floyd and Buehrle for Minnesota.

I'd hate to see the meltdown here if Richard did this at the dome.

spawn
07-09-2009, 01:48 PM
They did that to set the rotation for the Twins. They want Danks, Floyd and Buehrle for Minnesota.

Yeah, but I hate seeing them give away a game just to set the rotation for that series.

JB98
07-09-2009, 01:51 PM
Yeah, but I hate seeing them give away a game just to set the rotation for that series.

Better to lose a game to Cleveland than to lose a game to Minnesota.

It's very important to beat the Twins.

spawn
07-09-2009, 01:52 PM
Better to lose a game to Cleveland than to lose a game to Minnesota.

It's very important to beat the Twins.
I thought it was important to beat everyone. :shrug:

JB98
07-09-2009, 01:54 PM
I thought it was important to beat everyone. :shrug:

The games against Minnesota are all two-game swings in the standings. If we lose this one, it won't hurt much.

spawn
07-09-2009, 01:56 PM
The games against Minnesota are all two-game swings in the standings. If we lose this one, it won't hurt much.
I guess we'll have to agree to disagree. I'd love a sweep of the Toons, especially with Minnesota possibly getting swept by the Yankees.

LoveYourSuit
07-09-2009, 01:57 PM
The games against Minnesota are all two-game swings in the standings. If we lose this one, it won't hurt much.


That's the biggest myth and makes no mathematical sense.

A loss in the loss column is a loss .... PERIOD!

JB98
07-09-2009, 02:00 PM
That's the biggest myth and makes no mathematical sense.

A loss in the loss column is a loss .... PERIOD!

Bull****.

If DeWayne Wise is called safe in the bottom of the ninth inning on June 9, the Sox are tied for first place right now. That's a two-game swing right there.

Games against Detroit and Minnesota are two-game swings. Those are the most important games on the schedule. You load up to try to win those.

MarkZ35
07-09-2009, 02:03 PM
Bull****.

If DeWayne Wise is called safe in the bottom of the ninth inning on June 9, the Sox are tied for first place right now. That's a two-game swing right there.

Games against Detroit and Minnesota are two-game swings. Those are the most important games on the schedule. You load up to try to win those.
That's true because you not only lose a game in the standings but you give them a win in the standings.

LoveYourSuit
07-09-2009, 02:05 PM
Bull****.

If DeWayne Wise is called safe in the bottom of the ninth inning on June 9, the Sox are tied for first place right now. That's a two-game swing right there.

Games against Detroit and Minnesota are two-game swings. Those are the most important games on the schedule. You load up to try to win those.


Each team plays the same amount of games whe it's all set and done.
The goal is to have the least amount of losses when it's all set and done.

Huisj
07-09-2009, 02:07 PM
Each team plays the same amount of games whe it's all set and done.
The goal is to have the least amount of losses when it's all set and done.

And if you can get a win while guaranteeing that your rival gets a loss (by beating them directly), that means they will have a little bit harder time having the least amount of losses when it's all said and done.

LoveYourSuit
07-09-2009, 02:08 PM
That's true because you not only lose a game in the standings but you give them a win in the standings.

Yes, but at the end both teams end up playing 162 games.


We can go 0-38 vs the Tigers and Twins and still win the division if we beat everyone else.

That's my point.

JB98
07-09-2009, 02:09 PM
Each team plays the same amount of games whe it's all set and done.
The goal is to have the least amount of losses when it's all set and done.

And every team has to throw its fifth starter sometime, so it's best to do that against the last-place club in your division -- as opposed to the teams you are competing with for a playoff spot.

Some of you guys sound like spoiled children, stamping your feet because you didn't get what you want. If the Sox lose this ballgame, that means they will have only gone 5-1 in six games against Cleveland these past two weeks. A fate worse than death, to be sure. How dare they lose a game to Cleveland?

LoveYourSuit
07-09-2009, 02:10 PM
And if you can get a win while guaranteeing that your rival gets a loss (by beating them directly), that means they will have a little bit harder time having the least amount of losses when it's all said and done.


Everyone in the division is still alive, right?

The Indians can win 20 straight games here and jump right in and be that "Rival."

TDog
07-09-2009, 02:11 PM
That's the biggest myth and makes no mathematical sense.

A loss in the loss column is a loss .... PERIOD!

A win is a win, of course. But a win against the Twins also inflicts a loss against the Twins. A loss against the Twins gives them a win.

The Indians today are looking like the Indians on Saturday when they scored 15 runs. It probably doesn't matter who the White Sox pitch today.

JB98
07-09-2009, 02:14 PM
A win is a win, of course. But a win against the Twins also inflicts a loss against the Twins. A loss against the Twins gives them a win.

The Indians today are looking like the Indians on Saturday when they scored 15 runs. It probably doesn't matter who the White Sox pitch today.

And I don't really care if we give up 40 runs today, just as long as Thornton, Linebrink and Jenks are rested and ready for tomorrow.

Carrasco can stand out there and get his brains beat in all day for all I care. This game here is likely one of those that you are just destined to lose. Starter didn't have anything, got knocked out early. It happens.

RTI_SoxFan
07-09-2009, 02:15 PM
Are people really saying winning today is more important than the 3 games against the Twins?

ALL games are EQUALLY important!

spawn
07-09-2009, 02:16 PM
Are people really saying winning today is more important than the 3 games against the Twins?

ALL games are EQUALLY important!
That's exactly what I'm trying to say.

WhiteSoxFTW
07-09-2009, 02:18 PM
That's the biggest myth and makes no mathematical sense.

A loss in the loss column is a loss .... PERIOD!

It's not a myth. Sure, if you play poorly in the division and sweep all the out of division opponents you could make the playoffs, but it's more likely that a team that consistently beats their division foes makes the playoffs.

By playing and beating Minnesota, not only are you adding a win to your win column, you are keeping them from winning a game and adding a loss to their column.

TDog
07-09-2009, 02:18 PM
Are people really saying winning today is more important than the 3 games against the Twins?

Apparently.

Of course, the reason Richard is starting today is so that he isn't starting in Minnesota.

dakotasox
07-09-2009, 02:19 PM
That's exactly what I'm trying to say.

If you had a choice to win today against Cleveland or tomorrow against Minnesota, which one would you choose?

spawn
07-09-2009, 02:20 PM
If you had a choice to win today against Cleveland or tomorrow against Minnesota, which one would you choose?
I'd choose to win both. There is that option as well.

Huisj
07-09-2009, 02:21 PM
Everyone in the division is still alive, right?

The Indians can win 20 straight games here and jump right in and be that "Rival."

Yeah that's a great argument. :scratch:

I thought I was making that comment in reference to the idea that it's important to beat Minnesota right now this weekend because we are fighting for position with them, and us winning means they lose and thus have more overall losses than they would have otherwise had.

LoveYourSuit
07-09-2009, 02:22 PM
It's not a myth. Sure if you play poorly in the division and sweep all the out of division opponents you could make the playoffs, but it's more likely that a team that consistently beats their division foes makes the playoffs.

By playing and beating Minnesota, not only are you adding a win to your win column, you are keeping them from winning a game and adding a loss to their column.


But the part that you guys keep forgetting is that at the end we all end up playing 162 games.


We sweep the Twins for 3 then go lose 3 to Baltimore

and the Twins lose 3 to us and then go take 3 from Baltimore.

We are both 3-3 !

EVERY DAMN GAME COUNTS!!!!

dakotasox
07-09-2009, 02:22 PM
I'd choose to win both. There is that option as well.

I knew you would refuse to answer the question. But if you did, it would prove our point.

TDog
07-09-2009, 02:23 PM
I'd choose to win both. There is that option as well.

But the option is to start Richard at home against Cleveland or start Richard in Minnesota. If you're thinking the option is to start Poreda instead of Richard, you aren't any better off.

spawn
07-09-2009, 02:25 PM
I knew you would refuse to answer the question. But if you did, it would prove our point.
It was a stupid question. :shrug:

Dibbs
07-09-2009, 02:25 PM
If you had a choice to win today against Cleveland or tomorrow against Minnesota, which one would you choose?

I would rather win tomorrow if I had to pick a game. Sox win tomorrow assures they gain ground on the Twins. If they lose today, the Twins could still lose. Games against the Twins and Tigers are most important.

Huisj
07-09-2009, 02:27 PM
Your arguement only makes sense if this coming series with the Twins was the last series of the year and none of both teams had any additional games avail to make up any ground.


We can get swept by the Twins this weekend and we would still have plenty of time to make up those 3 games the same way they have plenty of time to lose 3.

Sure you can "afford" to, but the amount of work left in the season is a whole lot easier if you sweep them, is it not?

If you sweep them now, then maybe that last series of the year with no additional games doesn't even end up coming into play. Or maybe it still does, in which case if you hadn't swept them, it might not come into in the other direction (meaning the sox could be too far out of it).

JB98
07-09-2009, 02:27 PM
But the option is to start Richard at home against Cleveland or start Richard in Minnesota. If you're thinking the option is to start Poreda instead of Richard, you aren't any better off.

Precisely.

And I agree with what Ozzie did. He moved Buehrle up this week to make sure Mark would start against the Twins. And he moved Richard up and Danks back, so Danks would start against the Twins.

He was rolling the dice that the Sox could score enough runs to outhit Richard's issues at home today against Cleveland. Looks like that probably won't happen, but I still like the move.

If the Sox win the series at Minnesota, it will have worked out as designed. Provided we don't ruin the entire bullpen today, the matchups we want will be in place for the weekend.

spawn
07-09-2009, 02:27 PM
But the option is to start Richard at home against Cleveland or start Richard in Minnesota. If you're thinking the option is to start Poreda instead of Richard, you aren't any better off.
I'd rather start Richard on full rest and a chance at winnning than on short rest with a chance of burning through the bullpen.

Also, we're chasing Detroit. I understand wanting better positioning over Minnesota, but I want to try winning every game, not just games against Minnesota and Detroit.

Chicken Dinner
07-09-2009, 02:31 PM
I'd rather start Richard on full rest and a chance at winnning than on short rest with a chance of burning through the bullpen.

Also, we're chasing Detroit. I understand wanting better positioning over Minnesota, but I want to try winning every game, not just games against Minnesota and Detroit.

I'd rather not start Richard at all!

dakotasox
07-09-2009, 02:31 PM
It was a stupid question. :shrug:

No its not. Pitch Richard today and lose, Danks tomorrow and win. -OR- Pitch Danks today and win, Richard tomorrow and lose. What do you choose?

MISoxfan
07-09-2009, 02:32 PM
I'd rather start Richard on full rest and a chance at winnning than on short rest with a chance of burning through the bullpen.

Also, we're chasing Detroit. I understand wanting better positioning over Minnesota, but I want to try winning every game, not just games against Minnesota and Detroit.

While its hard to argue this side after Richard totally bombed. I do think Richard would have given up a ton of rons against either Cleveland or the Twins and I think we have a better chance to score a ton to make up for it against the Indians.

spawn
07-09-2009, 02:33 PM
No its not. Pitch Richard today and lose, Danks tomorrow and win. -OR- Pitch Danks today and win, Richard tomorrow and lose. What do you choose?
I'd rather pitch Richard tomorrow on full rest and save our bullpen than pitch him on short rest and burn the bullpen.

There. Happy?

WhiteSoxFTW
07-09-2009, 02:34 PM
But the part that you guys keep forgetting is that at the end we all end up playing 162 games.


We sweep the Twins for 3 then go lose 3 to Baltimore

and the Twins lose 3 to us and then go take 3 from Baltimore.

We are both 3-3 !

EVERY DAMN GAME COUNTS!!!!

Of course every game counts, but you cannot control what the Twins do against other teams. But, when you play them, you get to control both the win and the loss column.

TDog
07-09-2009, 02:36 PM
I'd rather start Richard on full rest and a chance at winnning than on short rest with a chance of burning through the bullpen.

Also, we're chasing Detroit. I understand wanting better positioning over Minnesota, but I want to try winning every game, not just games against Minnesota and Detroit.

Cleveland is an explosive team. They're a last place team, but they have been an explosive team scoring a bunch of runs all year long. It isn't a given that today's game would have been an easy win, no matter who they pitched.

I'm impressed that the White Sox are coming back.

spawn
07-09-2009, 02:38 PM
Cleveland is an explosive team. They're a last place team, but they have been an explosive team scoring a bunch of runs all year long. It isn't a given that today's game would have been an easy win, no matter who they pitched.

There's also no guarantee that Richard would've gotten rocked in Minny.

WhiteSoxFTW
07-09-2009, 02:39 PM
Precisely.

And I agree with what Ozzie did. He moved Buehrle up this week to make sure Mark would start against the Twins. And he moved Richard up and Danks back, so Danks would start against the Twins.

He was rolling the dice that the Sox could score enough runs to outhit Richard's issues at home today against Cleveland. Looks like that probably won't happen, but I still like the move.

If the Sox win the series at Minnesota, it will have worked out as designed. Provided we don't ruin the entire bullpen today, the matchups we want will be in place for the weekend.

Exactly. He set up the pitching matchups that way b/c he and Kenny both know how important this series is with the Twins. It isn't just 3 games.

If we lose this series and don't have a good start after the all-star break, Kenny is more likely to sell. If we win this series, he is less likely. Look at it that way.

dakotasox
07-09-2009, 02:41 PM
There's also no guarantee that Richard would've gotten rocked in Minny.

There's also no guarantee that the bullpen wouldn't have been burned up tomorrow either.

RANDY WILES
07-09-2009, 02:42 PM
There's also no guarantee that Richard would've gotten rocked in Minny.

I think he probably would have because right now Richard just doesn't have it "inside" to compete on this stage---so what do we do?

Mabe we let him keep pitching until he gets it back---it worked with Jose Contreras.

TDog
07-09-2009, 02:44 PM
There's also no guarantee that Richard would've gotten rocked in Minny.

No, but it's an assumption most White Sox fans would make.

With Beckham grounding out, the Sox are down three after three with Poreda in the game and their offense facing a tired starter backed up by a bullpen that has had more failure than success. Poreda is relatively fresh.

For people who want to see Poreda start, this is his opportunity. I don't think he has enough to hold the Indians, but it would be epic if he could get through the sixth with a lead and turn it over to the frontline relievers.

spawn
07-09-2009, 02:56 PM
I've moved these posts from the Gameday Thread as it has morphed into its own topic.

WhiteSoxFTW
07-09-2009, 03:03 PM
I've moved these posts from the Gameday Thread as it has morphed into its own topic.

Yeah, probably a good idea. This topic could go on for awhile. There are two very separate arguements here, and both sides are adament that they are right.

jabrch
07-09-2009, 03:44 PM
I'd always rathere win today's game and take a chance on tomorrow's game. But you don't guarantee yourself a win by starting one guy, and a loss by starting another.

It's really a guy feel call a manager will make if he is jiggling his rotation or his lineup. At the end of the day, I doubt the imapct of either is statistically significant.

WhiteSoxFTW
07-09-2009, 03:48 PM
I'd always rathere win today's game and take a chance on tomorrow's game. But you don't guarantee yourself a win by starting one guy, and a loss by starting another.

It's really a guy feel call a manager will make if he is jiggling his rotation or his lineup. At the end of the day, I doubt the imapct of either is statistically significant.

The majority of us weren't even arguing about juggling starters to win the game, we were talking about whether or not games against the Twins/Tigers hold more weight than those against the Indians.

soxfanreggie
07-09-2009, 04:28 PM
I would rather beat the Twins.

doublem23
07-09-2009, 04:39 PM
EVERY DAMN GAME COUNTS!!!!

Games against the Tigers and Twins count for 2, though.

MarkZ35
07-09-2009, 04:50 PM
Yes every game counts. That is obvious but the point is that when you play and beat the Tigers or Twins you guarantee that they can't win then. On other days when you don't play them, you can win but now you have no control over what they do. You could both lose or you can both win or win and they lose or whatever. So yes every game is important but the difference is when you beat them then they can't win also. So you have the upper hand after you beat them. On days you dont play them, if you win it doesn't really matter what they do because you can't control it. Yes every game is important but head to head are a little more important.

WhiteSoxFTW
07-09-2009, 05:05 PM
Yes every game counts. That is obvious but the point is that when you play and beat the Tigers or Twins you guarantee that they can't win then. On other days when you don't play them, you can win but now you have no control over what they do. You could both lose or you can both win or win and they lose or whatever. So yes every game is important but the difference is when you beat them then they can't win also. So you have the upper hand after you beat them. On days you dont play them, if you win it doesn't really matter what they do because you can't control it. Yes every game is important but head to head are a little more important.

Exactly. That's what I tried to say, but you said it better.

spawn
07-09-2009, 06:26 PM
With a win today, the Sox could've moved to 1.5 games of Detroit and increased their lead over Minnesota to 2.5 games. This is my reasoning for wanting to win today instead of setting up the rotation for the Twins series. Now granted, I know there is no guarantee that Danks would've pitched well and won today, but I like those odds better than pitching Richard on short rest. Also, with today's results, Poreda, Carrasco, and Dotel are unavailable to pitch tomorrow, and Thornton has pitched to days in a row. Again, there is no guarantee they wouldn't have pitched today, but again, I would've taaken that chance. Maybe my logic is flawed, and maybe there is a reason I'm not a Major League manager, but that's just how I feel about this. I'd rather play to win today instead of looking to set up the rotation for the next series.

DrCrawdad
07-09-2009, 06:51 PM
Who would you rather beat: The Indians or the Twins?

Yes.

BleacherBandit
07-09-2009, 07:27 PM
yes.

+1

1989
07-09-2009, 08:30 PM
I would rather beat the twins because I ****ing hate the twins

twinsuck
07-09-2009, 08:55 PM
I'd rather beat the Twins cause the Twins are bastards.

chisoxfanatic
07-09-2009, 09:00 PM
There is not a single player on that Cleveland team that I can say that I loathe; however, I'd love for those smirks to be wiped off the faces of Jason Kubel, Justin Morneau, Carlos Gomez, and Joe Mauer.

It was fun seeing all of them in the dugout after the Blackout game all hunched over and pouting while our guys were celebrating on our field. The Twins deserve to be that dejected every single day.

MarySwiss
07-10-2009, 01:01 AM
There is not a single player on that Cleveland team that I can say that I loathe; however, I'd love for those smirks to be wiped off the faces of Jason Kubel, Justin Morneau, Carlos Gomez, and Joe Mauer.

It was fun seeing all of them in the dugout after the Blackout game all hunched over and pouting while our guys were celebrating on our field. The Twins deserve to be that dejected every single day.
Yep! I was talking to a Sox fan friend at work and used the same word, smirk. It applies, and it especially applies to Morneau.

And although this has to be, by nature, speculative, I also wondered how "great" Morneau and Mauer would have been if they hadn't played half their games in the dome.

TDog
07-10-2009, 02:07 AM
In seasons past, Sox fans have criticized Guillen for not juggling the rotation for Twins series, especially in light of the fact that the Twins were juggling their rotation so that Santana would be going against the Sox.

Historically, everyone in the Sox rotation, except Richard, has pitched some pretty good games against the Twins. That doesn't mean everyone will pitch a great game this weekend. But I feel more confident in my team with Richard not getting one of the starts.

Frater Perdurabo
07-10-2009, 07:06 AM
And although this has to be, by nature, speculative, I also wondered how "great" Morneau and Mauer would have been if they hadn't played half their games in the dome.

I wondered the same thing, so I just looked at their splits. Over the past three years (2006-2008), they have hit as well on the road as at home.

But this year, both of them are hitting very well at home, including Mauer's jaw-dropping .435 BA at home. Morneau is hitting "only" .277 on the road this year.

Tragg
07-10-2009, 08:06 AM
IN general, if both were even in the standings? Cleveland.

But I certainly wouldn't have punted that game yesterday in the 2nd inning.

Jerko
07-10-2009, 08:42 AM
Yeah, but I hate seeing them give away a game just to set the rotation for that series.

I agree. Yeah the Twins are better than the Indians but I felt the Sox gave away a sure win yesterday. Rotation can be set all we want, now the bullpen is depleted for at least tonight's game. Robbing from Peter to pay Paul, as my grandmother used to say.

Brian26
07-10-2009, 05:35 PM
And although this has to be, by nature, speculative, I also wondered how "great" Morneau and Mauer would have been if they hadn't played half their games in the dome.

They'd be just as great. They're two outstanding major league ball players that can hit the baseball for power and average. I have see no correlation between the dome and their ability, as they're not speedsters who live and die on bloop hits and wacky artificial turf hi jinx.