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Sockinchisox
07-07-2009, 10:10 PM
http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/news/story?id=4312322&campaign=rss&source=MLBHeadlines

SephClone89
07-07-2009, 10:11 PM
:scratch:

BigP50
07-07-2009, 10:12 PM
or maybe he's just not willing and to cheap?

munchman33
07-07-2009, 10:15 PM
Wow...attendance is down nearly 5,000 per game. If that continues closer to the deadline, I wouldn't be surprised if we tried to dump salary.

IceczMan
07-07-2009, 10:19 PM
I don't understand how fans not willing to pay $40 to sit in the upper deck or $50 to sit in the bleachers for a game against the Dodgers on a Thursday afternoon is surprising. I think the eye opener for that Dodgers series is that is was priced as a Premier series.

goon
07-07-2009, 10:19 PM
I've only gone to one game this year.

DSpivack
07-07-2009, 10:19 PM
or maybe he's just not willing and to cheap?

KW or Reinsdorf?

If revenue falls, you have to control your costs.

thomas35forever
07-07-2009, 10:21 PM
I thought attendance threads weren't allowed.:tongue:

In all seriousness though, if we don't have the money to pull off a big trade, I'd be somewhat fine with sticking with what we have. That article should've cited the ticket prices for the Dodgers series however.

Hitmen77
07-07-2009, 10:22 PM
If Kenny is going to cite the Dodgers series as an example of attendance woes, perhaps the team should admit part of the blame for pricing tickets at the "premier" level.

That being said, no surprise that the economy is taking a bite out of tickets. It seems like crowds are down everywhere (and I'm not just talking about baseball games).

Also, the weather has been incredibly crappy for the Sox. Not only has this been an extremely cold and wet spring, but it's incredible how the storms seem to roll back in this year the day the Sox return home after a road trip.


EDIT: Iceczman beat me to it on the Dodgers series pricing. Not too many takers for $50 tickets on a Thursday afternoon vs. a west coast NL team? Shocking!

MarkZ35
07-07-2009, 10:25 PM
I don't understand how fans not willing to pay $40 to sit in the upper deck or $50 to sit in the bleachers for a game against the Dodgers on a Thursday afternoon is surprising. I think the eye opener for that Dodgers series is that is was priced as a Premier series.
+1 ... I can't believe the White Sox are so blind that they can't see that the Dodgers series shouldn't have been premier especially the Saturday afternoon game.

WhiteSox1989
07-07-2009, 10:28 PM
Uh...ok.

Andy T Clown
07-07-2009, 10:28 PM
:whiteflag::whiteflag::whiteflag:

munchman33
07-07-2009, 10:29 PM
I think people are missing the point. When a team like the dodgers comes to town, the Sox expect large crowds. They were the best team in baseball, in the NLDS last year, and are from one of the three largest markets. Not being able to draw significant crowds at premium prices for a series like that could very well mean a decrease in payroll. Because that's an expectation.

I'm still shocked attendance overall is also down THAT much. We did win the division last year people. Economy or not, we shouldn't be down 5,000 people a game. Our attendance last year wasn't even that good...

Noneck
07-07-2009, 10:29 PM
+1 ... I can't believe the White Sox are so blind that they can't see that the Dodgers series shouldn't have been premier especially the Saturday afternoon game.

They are not blind. Just throwing out excuses hoping they will stick.

Brian26
07-07-2009, 10:31 PM
or maybe he's just not willing and to cheap?

What does this even mean? Kenny, through his tenure, has always twisted JR's arm to try to squeeze every last dime of payroll out of him.

munchman33
07-07-2009, 10:50 PM
They are not blind. Just throwing out excuses hoping they will stick.

Attendance is down over 15% despite coming off a division championship. Sorry, but Kenny has a right to complain about not having enough money because people aren't coming to games. That excuses are thrown doesn't mean they're not 100% fact just because you don't want to hear them.

russ99
07-07-2009, 10:50 PM
I think people are missing the point. When a team like the dodgers comes to town, the Sox expect large crowds. They were the best team in baseball, in the NLDS last year, and are from one of the three largest markets. Not being able to draw significant crowds at premium prices for a series like that could very well mean a decrease in payroll. Because that's an expectation.

I'm still shocked attendance overall is also down THAT much. We did win the division last year people. Economy or not, we shouldn't be down 5,000 people a game. Our attendance last year wasn't even that good...

$50+ (before fees) per lower level seat = bad attendance for the Dodgers series, especially for a weekday day game.

Had that been a weekend series, that may have drawn better, but not by much. Truth is the "Premier" games have priced their way out of most fan's budgets.

As for Kenny's comments:

1) Kenny's miserable failures this offseason with all of his "projects" are a bigger reason attendance is down this year, not the economy. And also when you raise ticket prices 10%, sales can go down 10%. Besides, when you give fans little hope along with higher prices, they won't buy tickets. Were not Cubs fans, blindly going to games like sheep.

That said, they've turned things around nicely, and I not only expect the Sox to sell better this week and after the break, but I'll personally move off my 6 game limit and get some extra seats through July and August.

2) He's flying under the radar as usual. :smile:

munchman33
07-07-2009, 10:52 PM
$50+ (before fees) per lower level seat = bad attendance for the Dodgers series, especially for a weekday day game.

Had that been a weekend series, that may have drawn better, but not by much. Truth is the "Premier" games have priced their way out of most fan's budgets.

As for Kenny's comments:

1) Kenny's miserable failures this offseason with all of his "projects" are a bigger reason attendance is down this year. When you give fans little hope, they won't buy tickets. That said, they've turned things around nicely, and I not only expect the Sox to sell better, but I'll personally move off my 6 game limit and get some extra seats through July and August.

2) He's flying under the radar as usual. :smile:

It's not a new concept. And it's not going away either. If people don't like it, they can get used to $50-$70 million payrolls again. Because high payroll teams thrive by maximizing their best matchups.

edit: also, in response to #1 - attendance is down because season ticket sales were way down. People might not buy at the gate when the team is down, but it shouldn't have had to come to that. Especially with a team that won it's division last year.

russ99
07-07-2009, 10:55 PM
It's not a new concept. And it's not going away either. If people don't like it, they can get used to $50-$70 million payrolls again. Because high payroll teams thrive by maximizing their best matchups.

I was opposed to paying extra last July 4th vs. the A's, but this year I had zero desire to pay more for the same seat for a meaningless interleague game vs. the Dodgers.

Besides, the Sox would have better luck saving those premier seats for a near end of season series vs. the Twins or Tigers.

Noneck
07-07-2009, 10:56 PM
Attendance is down over 15% despite coming off a division championship. Sorry, but Kenny has a right to complain about not having enough money because people aren't coming to games. That excuses are thrown doesn't mean they're not 100% fact just because you don't want to hear them.

And maybe part of this decrease is due to increased tic prices, increase in premier games and a decrease in product quality.

sullythered
07-07-2009, 10:59 PM
It's not a new concept. And it's not going away either. If people don't like it, they can get used to $50-$70 million payrolls again. Because high payroll teams thrive by maximizing their best matchups.
I expect that, as the Sox get younger, payroll will be down for a bit anyway. Honestly, nobody should give a damn what the payroll is anyway, just what the performance is.

Also, like it or not, the Sox play on the side of the city with more blue collar workers. You know, people who are not able to keep on spending on entertainment when times are tough. It's natural that our attendance would be down.

Also, the Dodgers should never have been premium. Clearly, people care less about them than divisional opponents.

munchman33
07-07-2009, 11:03 PM
I was opposed to paying extra last July 4th vs. the A's, but this year I had zero desire to pay more for the same seat for a meaningless interleague game vs. the Dodgers.

Besides, the Sox would have better luck saving those premier seats for a near end of season series vs. the Twins or Tigers.

If you don't think the Dodgers should have been a premier matchup, then you're just plain wrong. They're one of the best organizations in the game, a big market team with fans that travel, and they have one of the most well known players in the game (who wasn't suspended when the pricing was set).

And maybe part of this decrease is due to increased tic prices, increase in premier games and a decrease in product quality.

How was product quality known when season ticket payments were due? That argument doesn't make any sense because there's no way to know any year. Season ticket sales were way down before the offseason really began.

And it's not only premier games where attendance is way down either. It's across the board. It just hurts more on the premier games because people should be coming to those.

DSpivack
07-07-2009, 11:05 PM
I expect that, as the Sox get younger, payroll will be down for a bit anyway. Honestly, nobody should give a damn what the payroll is anyway, just what the performance is.

Also, like it or not, the Sox play on the side of the city with more blue collar workers. You know, people who are not able to keep on spending on entertainment when times are tough. It's natural that our attendance would be down.

Also, the Dodgers should never have been premium. Clearly, people care less about them than divisional opponents.

Revenue is down either way, whether due to the economy and fans not being able to afford it, due to poor pricing/marketing decisions with the Dodgers series, or whether it's a combination of both. Either way, the reason for that doesn't really matter; the business side isn't taking in the revenue that was expected, then the baseball side can't afford as high a payroll.

SoxFan1979
07-07-2009, 11:06 PM
That's why the Sox need a Wrigleyville atmosphere around the park!

It's Dankerific
07-07-2009, 11:10 PM
Imagine. There are consequences to cutting payroll and playing like **** for 2 months.

Noneck
07-07-2009, 11:11 PM
How was product quality known when season ticket payments were due?



They knew what they were going to dump and they knew what they weren't willing to spend, so they knew what they couldn't get.

Baron
07-07-2009, 11:17 PM
I thought attendance threads weren't allowed.:tongue:

In all seriousness though, if we don't have the money to pull off a big trade, I'd be somewhat fine with sticking with what we have. That article should've cited the ticket prices for the Dodgers series however.


The one thing that would fix this is a big trade.That is the easy way to do it.Your ticket sales will increase.Just think of what the Jay Cutler trade is going to do to ticket sales this year.Same if Brett Favre signs with the Vikings.

doublem23
07-07-2009, 11:18 PM
Well, this team was playing like pure horse**** for the better part of the 1st two months of the year. Now that we are looking a little better (plus the weather seems to have turned the corner) hopefully people start showing up.

I'm sure it's also a bit of gamesmanship on KW's part, there are something like 18 teams within 5 games of a play-off spot right now, price will be high for whoever is available, a team like the Sox that is still low-to-average on minor league talent will have to be willing to spend more cash to pull off deals.

doublem23
07-07-2009, 11:18 PM
The one thing that would fix this is a big trade.That is the easy way to do it.Your ticket sales will increase.Just think of what the Jay Cutler trade is going to do to ticket sales this year.Same if Brett Favre signs with the Vikings.

Probably nothing since I believe the Bears already sell out all their games anyway.

Noneck
07-07-2009, 11:20 PM
The one thing that would fix this is a big trade.That is the easy way to do it.Your ticket sales will increase.Just think of what the Jay Cutler trade is going to do to ticket sales this year.Same if Brett Favre signs with the Vikings.

How true that is. You have to invest in order to get a return.

munchman33
07-07-2009, 11:20 PM
They knew what they were going to dump and they knew what they weren't willing to spend, so they knew what they couldn't get.

That's wrong. Deposits for renewals were due way before any of that was public. And this was coming off a division championship.

munchman33
07-07-2009, 11:23 PM
The one thing that would fix this is a big trade.That is the easy way to do it.Your ticket sales will increase.Just think of what the Jay Cutler trade is going to do to ticket sales this year.Same if Brett Favre signs with the Vikings.

Winning the division last year lead to a decrease in season ticket sales. What evidence do you offer that a trade will increase attendance for a team who's loss of season ticket base came after high level play?

doublem23
07-07-2009, 11:23 PM
How true that is. You have to invest in order to get a return.

It's not true at all, nobody cares about how much you spend, you have to win. If the Sox were 53-30 instead of 43-40, people would be lining up around the Cell to buy tickets.

munchman33
07-07-2009, 11:25 PM
It's not true at all, nobody cares about how much you spend, you have to win. If the Sox were 53-30 instead of 43-40, people would be lining up around the Cell to buy tickets.

I offer you the same reasoning. People didn't buy tickets after we won the division last year. Maybe most years' play on field is indicative of attendance. But I'm not sure that's the case with the economy the way it is.

PeoriaSoxFan
07-07-2009, 11:27 PM
I don't understand how fans not willing to pay $40 to sit in the upper deck or $50 to sit in the bleachers for a game against the Dodgers on a Thursday afternoon is surprising. I think the eye opener for that Dodgers series is that is was priced as a Premier series.


Good point. I was surprised by the number of empty seats vs. the Dodgers, but you are right, the premier seating thing is total B.S. Take 4 people to a game, spend $200+, plus $23 to park, etc etc. You can't blame it all on the ecomomy, there is common sense at play also. This is coming from a person, who routinely drops over $3K a year to see the Sox play 10 or less games.

Cuck the Fubs
07-07-2009, 11:28 PM
I don't like to hear this kind of stuff...but it's true...and economics.

Noneck
07-07-2009, 11:28 PM
That's wrong. Deposits for renewals were due way before any of that was public. And this was coming off a division championship.
My point is , management knew what they were going to do before deposits were due. Maybe not as to who or where they were going to dump but they knew they were dumping and then not spending.

If you think it was based on renewals, then why not back up the time frame for renewals and let the season tic holders know whats in their plans. Maybe because that would have decreased renewals even more?

1989
07-07-2009, 11:29 PM
You mean they aren't making money off of $23 parking?

doublem23
07-07-2009, 11:30 PM
I offer you the same reasoning. People didn't buy tickets after we won the division last year. Maybe most years' play on field is indicative of attendance. But I'm not sure that's the case with the economy the way it is.

I'm sure there were some economic concerns; but the Sox had something like 90+% of their season ticket holders renew this year, right? Seems like the season ticket base is doing fine, there just aren't as many walk-ups.

At any rate, I'm sure if the Sox keep up their recent play they'll be just fine at the gate.

EuroSox35
07-07-2009, 11:35 PM
Fan: Crap offseason could affect attendance

Noneck
07-07-2009, 11:35 PM
It's not true at all, nobody cares about how much you spend, you have to win. If the Sox were 53-30 instead of 43-40, people would be lining up around the Cell to buy tickets.

Or getting someone (Halladay) that will give the fans hope of having a second half record of 53-30 and get those people lining up for tics. Sitting on your hands will get you nothing.

Baron
07-07-2009, 11:35 PM
Winning the division last year lead to a decrease in season ticket sales. What evidence do you offer that a trade will increase attendance for a team who's loss of season ticket base came after high level play?

It usually occurs just looking back at some of the bigger trades throughout different sports.Im just going off that.

voodoochile
07-07-2009, 11:36 PM
My point is , management knew what they were going to do before deposits were due. Maybe not as to who or where they were going to dump but they knew they were dumping and then not spending.

If you think it was based on renewals, then why not back up the time frame for renewals and let the season tic holders know whats in their plans. Maybe because that would have decreased renewals even more?

Looks like you've answered your own question...

On the other hand, when the post 2008 FA period began, no one knew the economy was going to get this bad. I'm sure the Sox were hoping on an increase in ticket sales initially or at least to hold on to the base they had. When that didn't happen and the economy tanked they were forced to alter their business model. So KW cut some payroll and tried to fill some gaps on the cheap and planned on using Fields and Getz. The Sox sucked for most of the first two months of the season, climbed back to .500 around the beginning of June and promptly went in the toilet for the next 10 games or so right as the weather was supposed to be turning good and schools were letting out. There were a LOT of people who wrote the team off before the middle of June only to see the team make a run for the last several weeks to get back in the hunt, but the loss of revenue already incurred has been bad, so based on what they are seeing, I don't fault the Sox for saying, "we may not have much more to spend at the present".

Maybe the acquisition of Pena will allow them to dump Linebrink or Dotel and put that money to use elsewhere.

doublem23
07-07-2009, 11:39 PM
Or getting someone (Halladay) that will give the fans hope of having a second half record of 53-30 and get those people lining up for tics. Sitting on your hands will get you nothing.

I really think you're overstating that affect, especially in baseball, where walk-up ticket sales still matter. Yeah, maybe if the Sox acquired Halladay his first start at the Cell might be a big deal, but the bottom line is still the win-loss column. People will come if you win. They won't if you don't.

munchman33
07-07-2009, 11:40 PM
I'm sure there were some economic concerns; but the Sox had something like 90+% of their season ticket holders renew this year, right? Seems like the season ticket base is doing fine, there just aren't as many walk-ups.

At any rate, I'm sure if the Sox keep up their recent play they'll be just fine at the gate.

I don't think that's right...but even if it is, that's ridiculous. We won the division last year, and we're down about 10% of our season ticket base? We should be up. Those are lost guaranteed sales. Hard to make that up in "walk-ups", where more than play on the field affects their attendance.

tony1972
07-07-2009, 11:42 PM
Wow...attendance is down nearly 5,000 per game. If that continues closer to the deadline, I wouldn't be surprised if we tried to dump salary.


Not quite correct..attendance is down less than 1,000 per game as of today, July 7th. The attendance as of 43 home games last year was 27,600...as of 43 home games in 2009...26,500. The attendance picked up in July, August and September as the Sox continued to contend in 2008..reaching over 30,000 after 81 games.

If the Sox stay within a game or 2 of first..expect the average of 26,500 to creep up. If they contend through September..ending up with an average near 30,000 is a possibility. In April and May..average attendance in 2009 was actually UP over 2008..but the bad start led to smaller than expected crowds by the end of May and June. If the Sox had started off fairly well..they'd be looking at an average near 30,000 right now.

One thing I don't like is Kenny saying these things publicly...a sly form of blackmail (IMO)...these statements worked so well in the 90's didn't they?:scratch:

Plus..Hawk and Kenny, etc. sort of whining about attendance..just makes the casual fan go..'gee..no one really goes to Sox games..the attendance is so low..it must not be that much fun'...When do they realize that this actually works against them? If I have parties..and not many people show up..and I go around crying how no one goes..does this make more people want to attend my party?:scratch:

I guess history does repeat itself...I understand cutting payroll if attendance is low..I understand business..you don't spend more than you have....but these statements are just TERRIBLE public relations..and the Sox should have learned this 15 years ago.:?:

voodoochile
07-07-2009, 11:43 PM
I don't think that's right...but even if it is, that's ridiculous. We won the division last year, and we're down about 10% of our season ticket base? We should be up. Those are lost guaranteed sales. Hard to make that up in "walk-ups", where more than play on the field affects their attendance.

Maybe JR and KW were right and the economy is affecting ticket sales? I mean unemployment is running around 10% nationally at the moment and lots of teams are looking to dump some salary.

If the Blue Jays are willing to trade Halladay, that's a sure sign things are tough all over.

CWS44
07-07-2009, 11:46 PM
Winning the division last year lead to a decrease in season ticket sales. What evidence do you offer that a trade will increase attendance for a team who's loss of season ticket base came after high level play?

Do you have numbers on the season ticket renewals? My rep told me they had 95% or 97% ST renewals. The high renewal rate is because they won the division, or rather were in a good position to win the division so season ticket holders renewed and first timers signed up to be guaranteed post season tickets.

No surprise that they made the Dodger series premium, but also no surprise that more fans didn't go, especially to the Thursday day game. As we saw in other threads, the fan interest in interleague games isn't what it once was.

Domeshot17
07-07-2009, 11:47 PM
Its pretty simple,

Division title or not,, the Sox cut payroll, lost a fan favorite, ran out a bunch of unknown to the common fan kids and the biggest factor, RAISED prices.

Some food is up, parking is up, ticket prices are up and the economy is down. Alot of people don't want to pay a ton of money to see a bunch of kids hitting .250. I do not blame the sox for working in youngsters, but it was foolish to think most people would pay a high price to see new unknown players play .500 baseball.

Noneck
07-07-2009, 11:47 PM
I really think you're overstating that affect, especially in baseball, where walk-up ticket sales still matter. Yeah, maybe if the Sox acquired Halladay his first start at the Cell might be a big deal, but the bottom line is still the win-loss column. People will come if you win. They won't if you don't.
Maybe so but I'm convinced he would also help the win loss greatly and really wouldn't cost the Sox much (unless they are planning on having a small market salary structure next year), money wise that is. It is still possible September could be a graveyard without Halladay, with him I don't think so.

JB98
07-07-2009, 11:59 PM
Maybe JR and KW were right and the economy is affecting ticket sales? I mean unemployment is running around 10% nationally at the moment and lots of teams are looking to dump some salary.

If the Blue Jays are willing to trade Halladay, that's a sure sign things are tough all over.

Definitely. I'm cutting back on game attendance because I had to take a furlough at my job, and there's a chance I could join the unemployment line before the year is over. I need every penny right now.

And the Sox played like crap the first two months. I haven't gone to a game since the Milwaukee series, which was a trip I planned in the winter before the **** really hit the fan around here.

If I were filthy rich, I'd be at the ballpark more often. Just ain't happening this year.

EuroSox35
07-08-2009, 12:00 AM
The division title stuff is a moot point imo. We won a weak division with a flawed team (a good team would've run away with it), people spent lots of money on the playoffs (hell we even got an extra home game out of it), only to see the players show a 'happy to be there' attitude against TB and here quotes from AJ like 'well, either way I'll be in FL next week whether we make it to Game 5 or not', (though there was no big outrage because the fans loved Game 163 even though we shouldn't have been to that point in the first place)

and our offseason plan consists of losing of a few players (Cabrera, Crede, Vazquez, and Griffey-who I didn't care as much about) and replacing them all with minor leaguers who were probably getting too old to keep staying in the minors and continue being called prospects. Then we signed a few players no one else wanted like Colon, Garcia and Podsednik(which has turned out brilliant), all players that other teams did pass on thinking they were done.

Oh, and tickets are raised, parking continues to go up, concessions and service keep getting worse and we even lose the damn kosher dog, why should we be flocking to the gates again? I'll make regular trips because I'm a Sox fan and I love the stadium but so far this team hasn't screamed 'Change your plans to come and see me'. In short, shut up Kenny

ramblinsoxfan11
07-08-2009, 12:01 AM
Maybe if ticket prices were not so high, fan attendance would not be so low... Can they change the prices mid season?

1989
07-08-2009, 12:02 AM
I don't think that's right...but even if it is, that's ridiculous. We won the division last year, and we're down about 10% of our season ticket base? We should be up. Those are lost guaranteed sales. Hard to make that up in "walk-ups", where more than play on the field affects their attendance.

I know I was scrambling to buy season tickets after the great offseason we had

voodoochile
07-08-2009, 12:05 AM
The division title stuff is a moot point imo. We won a weak division with a flawed team (a good team would've run away with it), people spent lots of money on the playoffs (hell we even got an extra home game out of it), only to see the players show a 'happy to be there' attitude against TB and here quotes from AJ like 'well, either way I'll be in FL next week whether we make it to Game 5 or not', (though there was no big outrage because the fans loved Game 163 even though we shouldn't have been to that point in the first place)

and our offseason plan consists of losing of a few players (Cabrera, Crede, Vazquez, and Griffey-who I didn't care as much about) and replacing them all with minor leaguers who were probably getting too old to keep staying in the minors and continue being called prospects. Then we signed a few players no one else wanted like Colon, Garcia and Podsednik(which has turned out brilliant), all players that other teams did pass on thinking they were done.

Oh, and parking continues to go up, concessions and service keep getting worse and we even lose the damn kosher dog, why should we be flocking to the gates again? I'll make regular trips because I'm a Sox fan and I love the stadium but so far this team hasn't screamed 'Change your plans to come and see me'

I'm gonna be blunt. This is bull****. This whole ****ing post is a steaming pile of crap. The Sox made it to game 163 and won a game in the playoffs without their best hitter and MVP candidate playing for the last month and all 4 games of the postseason and a pitching staff that was coming apart at the seems with three starters who were effectively rookies, one head case and Mark Buehrle.

Saying they mailed it in and had a "happy to be there" approach to the playoffs is just plain crap.

Hitmen77
07-08-2009, 12:05 AM
Not quite correct..attendance is down less than 1,000 per game as of today, July 7th. The attendance as of 43 home games last year was 27,600...as of 43 home games in 2009...26,500. The attendance picked up in July, August and September as the Sox continued to contend in 2008..reaching over 30,000 after 81 games.



Shhhh!!!! Down 5,000 helps feed this discussion more. Why do you want to ruin it with so-called "facts".

Remember, the economy and bad weather don't explain a 1,000....er, I mean 5,000 per game drop in attendance. Let's just complain about Sox fan turnout and run this thread up to 300 posts!

DSpivack
07-08-2009, 12:06 AM
Maybe if ticket prices were not so high, fan attendance would not be so low... Can they change the prices mid season?

Not really, but the Giants are experimenting with dynamic pricing models this season on a few thousand seats. That is, they'll change the price for games each day depending on upcoming demand for games. So if a particular looks popular, price will go up. If it doesn't, it will go down.

An interesting experiment that I'm sure is being watched around the sport.

Hitmen77
07-08-2009, 12:07 AM
Its pretty simple,

Division title or not,, the Sox cut payroll, lost a fan favorite, ran out a bunch of unknown to the common fan kids and the biggest factor, RAISED prices.

Some food is up, parking is up, ticket prices are up and the economy is down. Alot of people don't want to pay a ton of money to see a bunch of kids hitting .250. I do not blame the sox for working in youngsters, but it was foolish to think most people would pay a high price to see new unknown players play .500 baseball.

Do you seriously think attendance is down because we traded Nick Swisher? :o:

DSpivack
07-08-2009, 12:08 AM
Do you seriously think attendance is down because we traded Nick Swisher? :o:

If anyone seriously isn't going to one game this year because of Dirty Thirty, then I say good riddance.

doublem23
07-08-2009, 12:11 AM
Not quite correct..attendance is down less than 1,000 per game as of today, July 7th. The attendance as of 43 home games last year was 27,600...as of 43 home games in 2009...26,500. The attendance picked up in July, August and September as the Sox continued to contend in 2008..reaching over 30,000 after 81 games.

If the Sox stay within a game or 2 of first..expect the average of 26,500 to creep up. If they contend through September..ending up with an average near 30,000 is a possibility. In April and May..average attendance in 2009 was actually UP over 2008..but the bad start led to smaller than expected crowds by the end of May and June. If the Sox had started off fairly well..they'd be looking at an average near 30,000 right now.

Fantastic work. Excellent post. :thumbsup:

Lip Man 1
07-08-2009, 12:21 AM
Here's what I posted on my blog at the Tribune for what it's worth:

"The bigger story to me, was Kenny Williams comments about Sox attendance and how that might hurt his ability to make a deal. Here's the story from Toni Ginnetti (http://www.suntimes.com/sports/baseball/whitesox/1655735,white-sox-tony-pena-070709.article) of the Chicago Sun-Times.

Now here's the quote that got to me and remember I wasn't there to see the facial expressions when Kenny said it or to hear exactly how he stated it, what inflection was in his voice, if any...whether he raised his voice for example. I'm just reading it on the page:

''Money is more of an issue now because we expected a little more [fan] support than we've gotten."

At first glance this reminded me of his comment when he was introduced as G.M. in November 2000... you remember, "I can't ask the owner to spend a dollar if he only has fifty cents..."

Now maybe he immediately remembered the feedback the organization took from the fans over that one because he quickly added this:

''It's a reflection of the economy, and I don't know if we've been consistent enough or exciting enough for people to get behind us yet. Maybe we were a little aggressive [in preseason attendance projections], and that obviously is going to have an impact on what we can and cannot do. We might have to take a lot closer look at it."

I appreciate Kenny saying this (seriously, not sarcastically). The fans are not at fault here.

If you want Sox fans to come out in a tough economy you give them a reason to make the choice and spend their dollars at U.S. Cellular Field.

That mean you don't ignore a buyer's market in the off season where quality players could be had for very reasonable prices...you don't tout off season moves like Wilson Betemit, Brent Lillibridge, "Corky" Miller and Bartolo Colon as being the "answer" and expect Sox fans to get all excited about it and you don't have an overall off season ticket price increase while trimming payroll the second most in MLB. Also factoring in as Kenny stated was inconsistent, mediocre play at best.

To me the best answer in a tough economy where you are trying to hold on to every fan and advertiser you can get is to actually spend more...give the fans a solid reason to come out. Let them say to themselves 'we have to see these guys!' Make advertisers have to think twice about leaving because you are winning games and generating excitement. "Retrenchment" is no way to do that."

Lip

slavko
07-08-2009, 12:26 AM
Maybe if ticket prices were not so high, fan attendance would not be so low... Can they change the prices mid season?

There are ways of doing this without seeming to do it. Coupons, offers, twofers, giveaways, online specials. Watch for them.

jabrch
07-08-2009, 12:33 AM
I've said it before...I'll say it again.

The worst way to figure out what Kenny Williams is thinking is to listen to what comes out of his mouth. Only once in a rare while are the two actually the same.

soxfan21
07-08-2009, 12:34 AM
Do you have numbers on the season ticket renewals? My rep told me they had 95% or 97% ST renewals. The high renewal rate is because they won the division, or rather were in a good position to win the division so season ticket holders renewed and first timers signed up to be guaranteed post season tickets.

No surprise that they made the Dodger series premium, but also no surprise that more fans didn't go, especially to the Thursday day game. As we saw in other threads, the fan interest in interleague games isn't what it once was.


I agree with you. My rep also told me renewals were around 95% mostly in part to us putting down money for last years playoff tickets. I agree that walk up attendance is way down due in part to the economy/ young players playing. I also agree with most others here that the pricing structure has to change. With the Dodgers series being a premier series and even this current Indians series being priced as a prime series, something has to be done, but I don't really see the Sox lowering prices anytime soon, and even would not be too surprised to see prices raised even next year. This just seems to be the trend lately.

Noneck
07-08-2009, 12:35 AM
Lip,

The statement from Sox management was that the fans are not at fault but on the other hand, management won't do what they have to do in order to make things better. So in essence the fans pay for something they are not responsible for and management doesn't want to try to fix.

Tragg
07-08-2009, 12:42 AM
The Sox have had a disciplined budget throughout JR's tenure. This can't be any surprise.
Not cheap, just disciplined.

kitekrazy
07-08-2009, 12:44 AM
I'm trying to figure out why a Sox fan would be interested in a Sox/Dodger's game?

It's an inter league game, no rivalry, nothing. Best team in baseball in June is pretty meaningless.

There's plenty of reasons that attendance is down. It's not like the Sox are the only team to have attendance problems.

So what if the Sox aren't able to pull of a big trade? You probably wont see any big trades this season as many teams are going to try to cut payroll.

DSpivack
07-08-2009, 12:53 AM
Lip,

The statement from Sox management was that the fans are not at fault but on the other hand, management won't do what they have to do in order to make things better. So in essence the fans pay for something they are not responsible for and management doesn't want to try to fix.

What makes you think that?

The Sox have had a disciplined budget throughout JR's tenure. This can't be any surprise.
Not cheap, just disciplined.

And thankfully this has been the case. We've never had a really bad long-term contract, and have been able to be consistently competitive. Not being one of the bigger teams that can fix it's contract mistakes, I'm glad we're not in the position that Arizona was a few years ago, or the Blue Jays find themselves in with bad contracts to Vernon Wells, Alex Rios, or B.J. Ryan. Payroll flexibility in the long-term is a very good thing.

LoveYourSuit
07-08-2009, 12:53 AM
All I heard earlier before Kenny had to speak out:

- Sporting events thrive during a weak economy because people travel less and instead spend their money in sporting events.

- The Cold weather.

- Kids are in school.

blah blah blah.

The excuse making needs to stop. Sox fans don't like this team, period. A ****ty off-season to go with jacked up ticekt prices .... 26K is what you should expect especially with a team playing dead the first 2 months.

Very dissapoited at the turn out today while sitting out there. I expected about 30K for a very nice summer night and a team coming home after a pretty good road trip with our ACE on the mound.

LoveYourSuit
07-08-2009, 12:57 AM
I'm trying to figure out why a Sox fan would be interested in a Sox/Dodger's game?

.

1) according to ESPN and FOX Manny is God. Prior to his suspension, you would have expected a pretty big pre-sale in March/April for these games. Sort of what happens to Red Sox and Yankees.

2) Dodgers are a big market team

3) Dodgers 6th in MLB Road attendance, and this with the Manny Circus being out for 2 months.

4) Dodger holding the best record in baseball

Konerko05
07-08-2009, 01:02 AM
Do you seriously think attendance is down because we traded Nick Swisher? :o:

Ha. I'm pretty sure he was referring to Joe Crede.

Noneck
07-08-2009, 01:03 AM
What makes you think that?




I believe they said that since attendance was down they wouldn't put out the money needed for a big acquisition.

Konerko05
07-08-2009, 01:03 AM
Didn't Kenny/Jerry already cut payroll in anticipation of this so-called dropoff in attendance?

LoveYourSuit
07-08-2009, 01:06 AM
I've said it before...I'll say it again.

The worst way to figure out what Kenny Williams is thinking is to listen to what comes out of his mouth. Only once in a rare while are the two actually the same.

The numbers don't like jabarch. The attendace figures suck for a team in the 3rd largest market.

How else do you want people to "read into Kenny's mind?" :scratch:

kittle42
07-08-2009, 01:08 AM
Didn't Kenny/Jerry already cut payroll in anticipation of this so-called dropoff in attendance?

Yes, but don't stop them from doing it some more! Go, Sox!

LoveYourSuit
07-08-2009, 01:10 AM
I believe they said that since attendance was down they wouldn't put out the money needed for a big acquisition.


I sitll hold to my theory that the whole Peavy debacle was a stunt. You can't sit here and one day decide "hey let's go add this astronomical contract" and then 2 months later say "****, our attendance numbers suck, we can't add payroll." You should have a pretty good gauge on what attendance numbers look based on early demands and pre-sales.

Something doesn't make sense here.

1989
07-08-2009, 01:14 AM
I sitll hold to my theory that the whole Peavy debacle was a stunt. You can't sit here and one day decide "hey let's go add this astronomical contract" and then 2 months later say "****, our attendance numbers suck, we can't add payroll." You should have a pretty good gauge on what attendance numbers look based on early demands and pre-sales.

Something doesn't make sense here.

I think this whole attendance issue is a smokescreen to allow Kenny to work without any speculation of a big deal that might be going down. Like a poster earlier mentioned, attendance is down only 1000 per game at this point last year.

Noneck
07-08-2009, 01:19 AM
I sitll hold to my theory that the whole Peavy debacle was a stunt. You can't sit here and one day decide "hey let's go add this astronomical contract" and then 2 months later say "****, our attendance numbers suck, we can't add payroll." You should have a pretty good gauge on what attendance numbers look based on early demands and pre-sales.

Something doesn't make sense here.

That Peavy hit was a lot bigger than the one Halladay would be. But now they are suddenly bust. I'm with you, no way attendance has taken that kind of hit since the Peavy fiasco. Something does stink here, that's forsure.

LoveYourSuit
07-08-2009, 01:23 AM
I think this whole attendance issue is a smokescreen to allow Kenny to work without any speculation of a big deal that might be going down. Like a poster earlier mentioned, attendance is down only 1000 per game at this point last year.

In the words of Miike Murphy, " I like your angle."


This could be a smokescreen to keep the Tigers nose out of a potential deal being worked in the back room. The Tigers took it to us once already with Cabrera.

Maybe we have something here.

Adding Peavy big $$$ to all of a sudden 2 months later crying poor and broke. It doesn't add up :scratch: Teams don't go $60 million broke in 2 months.

hawkjt
07-08-2009, 01:25 AM
I just think it is Kenny preparing the fan base for no big moves this month...mainly because none make sense and he likes our roster. I agree.
I think the sox can win the division with this team.

LoveYourSuit
07-08-2009, 01:28 AM
I just think it is Kenny preparing the fan base for no big moves this month...mainly because none make sense and he likes our roster. I agree.
I think the sox can win the division with this team.


The ultimate goal is to win a World Series. Came from Kenny's mouth after getting booted in the ALDS by TB in 4 games.

I hope that's what fans and Kenny are shooting for.

1989
07-08-2009, 01:42 AM
The ultimate goal is to win a World Series. Came from Kenny's mouth after getting booted in the ALDS by TB in 4 games.

I hope that's what fans and Kenny are shooting for.

I agree, but it isn't like we got our clocks cleaned in the 4 game series either. And remember, we had Wise and Uribe playing in what would have been Quentin and Crede's spots. A 2008 Sox playoff team with those two guys is very dangerous squad. So it isn't that we were that far off.

Lip Man 1
07-08-2009, 01:53 AM
Just wanted to follow up with some material regarding Kenny Williams' attendance comments this evening.

Checking around the internet I've read a wide range of opinions. They range from those that feel Kenny's comments weren't that big of a deal, some say it sounded like a threat to fans which didn't work well in the late 1990's, others cite comments from their season ticket representatives who say that ticket renewals were running about 95% compared to 2008, still others feel the Sox themselves are to blame for raising ticket prices in a tough economy.

Regardless of what you think there are some facts in play.

1. White Sox attendance in the past three completed seasons (2006-2008) totaled over eight million fans. The highest three year stretch since the new Comiskey Park opened in 1991 through 1993.

2. Individually they break out like this:

2006 - 2,957,414 (highest in franchise history)
2007 - 2,684,395 (3rd highest in franchise history)
2008 - 2,500,648 (6th highest in franchise history)

All numbers are from the 2009 Sox Media Guide*

3. (For Munchman) Earlier this season Brooks Boyer was quoted in the mainstream media as saying Sox season ticket sales were holding "steady" compared to 2008.

Assuming that didn't dramatically change, it seems if the Sox "overestimated" anything, it was individual walk up or single ticket sales.

Let's take a closer look at that because there are some issues in play that the Sox have gone through before, it shouldn't be a surprise to them:

1. School isn't out in April and May.
2. The weather in April and May usually is poor. This year it was absolutely horrible. If I'm going to see a game, it probably won't be when it's 55 degrees and misting.
3. A less then exciting off season.
4. A mediocre start this year.
5. Higher ticket prices and higher prices for the things that go with the game.

The Sox can't be held responsible for the weather but the other four items are all things in their control. They know their fan base and they know how they are going to react especially if the team isn't winning consistently. If they "overestimated" fan attendance the onus falls squarely on them.

The Sox have great people in these departments, it's hard to believe they could have guessed wrong enough to cause Kenny to make his comments. I don't know... something doesn't sound right especially when taken in the context of them being willing to take on a contract the size of Jake Peavy's only a few months ago.

I agree with some others who have said that if the Sox stay in the race, with good weather finally here, the attendance question will be answered in a positive manner. Will that be soon enough to allow Kenny to make moves? That I can't answer.

Lip

WhiteSox5187
07-08-2009, 02:02 AM
I think this really stems from the fact that the Sox are a perfectly mediocre team and in this economy people won't (and sometimes can't) spend up to $200 a game to see a mediocre team. If prices were lower, maybe it'd be different, or if this team were running away with the division. If we keep playing solid ball though, attendance will pick up.

Noneck
07-08-2009, 02:05 AM
I agree with some others who have said that if the Sox stay in the race, with good weather finally here, the attendance question will be answered in a positive manner. Will that be soon enough to allow Kenny to make moves? That I can't answer.

Lip
8 home games, minus the 2 with the yanks on 7/30 and 7/31 which the bean counters should have a good handle on already.

No way these 8 home games before the trading deadline can have much of a bearing if they are going to spend or not. They know now.

doublem23
07-08-2009, 02:06 AM
This could be a smokescreen to keep the Tigers nose out of a potential deal being worked in the back room. The Tigers took it to us once already with Cabrera.

Maybe we have something here.

Adding Peavy big $$$ to all of a sudden 2 months later crying poor and broke. It doesn't add up :scratch: Teams don't go $60 million broke in 2 months.

This is probably the 2nd most sensical post in this thread, behind tony's number crunching.

TheVulture
07-08-2009, 03:13 AM
KW and JR have both said repeatedly that they know they have to have a quality product on the field for Sox fans to come out in big numbers, yet KW says they're surprised attendance is down after they reduced payroll and played like crap for two months? ***, Kenny?

And the Dodgers may be a good team, but there's no way they're a premier draw in Chicago. Milwaukee, Minnesota, Detroit would probably all bring in more traveling fans to the south side than the Dodgers. I wouldn't have any particular interest in seeing them compared to other teams.

I_Liked_Manuel
07-08-2009, 04:28 AM
None of this should be a surprise to anybody - Kenny, the fans, ownership, etc. There are a lot of factors that have pushed Sox fans away this year. Some are the Sox' fault, some aren't -

Poor start
Bad weather
A half dozen AAA players on the roster
Ticket prices
Economy
Parking price
Concession prices
Boring style of baseball

whitesoxfan
07-08-2009, 04:44 AM
KW's frontin...

Jerome
07-08-2009, 04:57 AM
They (and all of baseball) should lower ticket prices before they even think about bitching about attendance.

balke
07-08-2009, 07:32 AM
Kenny I think is trying to soften the blow for Sox fans. I'm hearing Red Sox are talking to them, as well as the Angels.

This won't happen for the White Sox. We don't have the kind of talent to give up for Halladay. Plus, this is another no trade clause situation. I wouldn't be surprised at all if Halladay told us no as well.


Red Sox can pretty much say Bucholtz (SP?) and beat our best offer. No way we trade Beckham, and with good reason.

Pitching isn't our problem right now. I don't want to lose Danks or Floyd for Halladay, and that's probably what kind of talent it would take. Sox are chugging on all cylinders right now. I'm excited to see how well this team can do down the stretch.

DrCrawdad
07-08-2009, 08:08 AM
2009 AL Central average attendance:
Tigers 30,260
Twins 27,213
Sox 26,147
Royals 23,699
Indians 22,178

2009 2nd place teams attendance:
Mariners 27,138
Rays 23,003
Rangers 26,705
Marlins 17,724
Braves 28,337
Brewers 37,886
Giants 34,517

Hartman
07-08-2009, 08:08 AM
Maybe Kenny and Co. should consider lowering ticket prices. After what I spent on some very good seats at Great American Ballpark during the Reds/Sox series, you'd think the seats at the Cell were dipped in pure gold. I'm not sure if I can swallow those prices this year.

rocky biddle
07-08-2009, 08:20 AM
Kenny I think is trying to soften the blow for Sox fans. I'm hearing Red Sox are talking to them, as well as the Angels.

This won't happen for the White Sox. We don't have the kind of talent to give up for Halladay. Plus, this is another no trade clause situation. I wouldn't be surprised at all if Halladay told us no as well.


Red Sox can pretty much say Bucholtz (SP?) and beat our best offer. No way we trade Beckham, and with good reason.

Pitching isn't our problem right now. I don't want to lose Danks or Floyd for Halladay, and that's probably what kind of talent it would take. Sox are chugging on all cylinders right now. I'm excited to see how well this team can do down the stretch.

I doubt they'd trade Halladay within their division, and I'd really doubt Boston would give a division rival a really promising young pitcher in return. But who knows...

As for the attendance issue, a big overlooked factor is the lack of group outings this year. I don't have a link to provide, it's just something I've heard from people I know who work for the team. Apparently the group sales dept. is hurting pretty bad. That, along with the subpar walk-up numbers, are keeping the attendance figures down. And these two things are directly affected by all the reasons outlined earlier (higher prices, poor product, bad weather, bad economy, etc.).

I hope KW is just bluffing and has something up his sleeve. The surest way to drive attendance (at least for the Sox) has always been to win.

34rancher
07-08-2009, 08:26 AM
Too bad we roadhoused that other thread during dodger series where I was being lambasted on the absurdity of charging more for one team than others. Let's say that each premier priced dodger game pushed away 10000 people (fair number since a good value to best team and amount below season average). That's 30000 fans more for the series and makes the 1000 per game neglible through the first 43 games. now we are playing the attendance debate and the no one comes any more pity threads. Different priced tickets for different MAJOR league teams is an insult and slap in the face.

rocky biddle
07-08-2009, 08:39 AM
Too bad we roadhoused that other thread during dodger series where I was being lambasted on the absurdity of charging more for one team than others. Let's say that each premier priced dodger game pushed away 10000 people (fair number since a good value to best team and amount below season average). That's 30000 fans more for the series and makes the 1000 per game neglible through the first 43 games. now we are playing the attendance debate and the no one comes any more pity threads. Different priced tickets for different MAJOR league teams is an insult and slap in the face.

I think people really undervalue the effects of Manny not being on the team for the Dodgers series. It might not mean a lot to Sox fans, but I think quite a few more casual fans would've paid to see Manny be Manny in person. We'll never know...

roylestillman
07-08-2009, 09:28 AM
Kenny can't be blamed for speaking the truth, and he puts the blame squarely on the organization for not putting out a product that more people are interested in. I can feel it just trying to get friends to go to games. My unused tix are up this year. Here's my reasoning:

Since winning the WS, the chase to win the AL Central is not as exciting as it once was. Partly it has to do with the crap division we're now in (remember when the AL Rust Belt division was considered toughest in baseball?) the other has to do with the poor performance in last years playoffs. The bar is much higher since 2005.

Pricing is getting to be an issue. I understand payroll costs and its relation to needed revenue, but basic laws of economics tells you at some point increased prices don't bring you more revenue. The Dodger series is a case in point. You're off on that Thursday and you wonder - "Should I go to the park and spend $52 to sit in the outfield and watch a National League team I don't really follow or stay at home and watch it on TV?" Multiply that by the kids you are considering taking and the choice is pretty easy. Parking at $23 is just nonsense. Haven't paid for it in years, and no I'm not telling you where I park.

The teams performance early in the year was awful, especially at home. The weather even worse. I couldn't believe that even yesterday I was contemplating whether I needed a jacket as the clouds rolled in at 3:00.

The Sox are still dealing with a problem they've had for years. Basically a personalityless team. Swisher, for all his faults, kept the cameras rolling last year. Now its back to Ozzie. What we love about JD, Paulie, and Thome is the low keyed humble players they are, but a couple of trouble makers would sure sell tickets.

Finally, the Sox haven't had any compelling stories this year. No rookie pitcher going for his 20th win. No Thome going for his 500th. No (home) winning streak. No hitting streak. The Beckham story is as close as we got, and the initial stumble took some of the wind out of that sail. That's the kind of stuff that results in walk up sales.

jdm2662
07-08-2009, 09:36 AM
The day I take the likes Kenny Williams' and Ozzie Guillen's comments seriously is the day I become an NFL Head Coach. They say and do two different things, always been the case, always will be. I just wish they would shut up already.

To note, even with my wife out of work for a month and half this year, I've attended eight games (although four were on the road). This is despite the fact they didn't crack .500 until last week.

hawkjt
07-08-2009, 09:53 AM
This was setup by the economy last winter. Sox are always a big walkup fanbase anyway,but season ticket sales were clearly off a bit. Then we have the wettest year on record since 1873 when they started keeping track of those stats. Economy melted down further. Team played bad at home for the first time in memory. Offense was horrible,no excitement. I have gone to at least 3 games where they had 3 or less hits...not good..and I walked out very unhappy.

Net result...attendance lagging. But, historically, if the sox keep playing good ball,with Red Sox,Yankees coming in, pennant race into late sept...it will rebound to respectable.

Law11
07-08-2009, 10:06 AM
KW can speak his truth all he wants but this team SUCKED the first 2 1/2 months of the season couple that with crappy weather and poof Lower attendance. Remember KW this aint the other side of town. Crappy play means Im saving my dollars for other purposes.

Dropping an easy $30 a ticket, 6.25 for a beer, 4 bucks for a brat. That's 40.00 just for me alone. Not including the $23 to park. Try to bring a family of 3 or 4 and do that math.. Not gonna be at a whole lot of games at that cost.

So dont play the we cant spend without drawing card. It's beneath you KW and insults us.

Hitmen77
07-08-2009, 10:07 AM
This was setup by the economy last winter. Sox are always a big walkup fanbase anyway,but season ticket sales were clearly off a bit. Then we have the wettest year on record since 1873 when they started keeping track of those stats. Economy melted down further. Team played bad at home for the first time in memory. Offense was horrible,no excitement. I have gone to at least 3 games where they had 3 or less hits...not good..and I walked out very unhappy.

Net result...attendance lagging. But, historically, if the sox keep playing good ball,with Red Sox,Yankees coming in, pennant race into late sept...it will rebound to respectable.

Wettest/coolest spring on record and worst economic crisis in 70 years? Why oh why is Sox attendance down an avg of 1000 people per game! I just don't get it.

As others have pointed out, it's expensive to take a family of 4 to a ballgame. $40 x 4 + $23 for parking and you've already dropped close to $200 before you even went to your first concessions stand. This isn't just affecting "blue collar" Sox fans. White collar families are feeling the pinch.

....and no, people are not going to pay "premier" prices to see the Dodgers on a Thursday afternoon.

:tomatoaward

voodoochile
07-08-2009, 10:17 AM
Wettest/coolest spring on record and worst economic crisis in 70 years? Why oh why is Sox attendance down an avg of 1000 people per game! I just don't get it.

....and no, people are not going to pay "premier" prices to see the Dodgers on a Thursday afternoon.

The question people are missing here is "which way is the attendance trending"? The fact that it's only down 1000 now isn't the issue so much as "is it showing signs of improving during the summer months as it usually does and as it did in 2005-2008?"

If the Sox take over first in the next few weeks it will help, but right now their mediocre start in terms of results isn't causing the fans to come to the park.

The Sox have played 41 home games and averaged 26,500 to date. That's just over 1M fans so far. To get to 2.5M they need to average 35,500 over their final 40 home games (barring a 163rd game to help out :tongue: ). Last night they drew about 23,800. If that continues, then yeah, they are looking at attendance of around 2M and that's a massive decrease from even last year which was their worst since they won the championship.

The Sox are normally around 23-27K average entering June in good attendance seasons, but they make it up during the hot summer months. Others have pointed out the reasons for the attendance to be down this year. If those trends continue, the Sox will struggle to break 2.3M in attendance and that would probably lead to no major acquisitions.

russ99
07-08-2009, 10:22 AM
Do you seriously think attendance is down because we traded Nick Swisher? :o:

No, it's because we replaced him with (take your pick) Wise, Owens and Anderson.

Kenny cried poor and did nothing this offseason but ditch major league players. And now he's crying poor because we're weren't overjoyed with his 'rebuilding' club and went to less games? Ironic.

voodoochile
07-08-2009, 10:25 AM
No, it's because we replaced him with (take your pick) Wise, Owens and Anderson.

Kenny cried poor and did nothing this offseason but ditch major league players. And now he's crying poor because we're weren't overjoyed with his 'rebuilding' club and went to less games? Ironic.

Your "rebuilding club" is 2 games out of first in early July and is showing signs of becoming a second half powerhouse.

It's your perception that are clouding your opinion about this team. You can be stubborn and continue to hold on to that perception or you can jump on up here grab a seat and enjoy the ride. Your choice...

I_Liked_Manuel
07-08-2009, 10:35 AM
Your "rebuilding club" is 2 games out of first in early July and is showing signs of becoming a second half powerhouse.

It's your perception that are clouding your opinion about this team. You can be stubborn and continue to hold on to that perception or you can jump on up here grab a seat and enjoy the ride. Your choice...

The fact that they're 2 games out of first is irrelevant - nobody's paying attention to a pennant race at the beginning of July. The Sox are on pace to win 84 games right now - a mediocre amount, which is drawing mediocre attendance. The casual fan that opens up the paper and sees 43-40 next to the Sox isn't going to be excited.

BainesHOF
07-08-2009, 10:41 AM
When Manny was suspended, there wasn't one player on the Dodgers who I was interested in watching. I didn't care about their best record in baseball, especially considering it was compiled in a bad league. Making it a "premium" series was downright silly.

How anyone, especially those in the organization, can be surprised by the dip in attendance is beyond me. Attendance is going to continue to decrease next year when season-ticket holders drop off. I don't have to tell anyone the economy is horrible. Official unemployment is at more than 10 percent, real unemployment was recently reported at more than 16 percent and many more people are either underemployed or scared to death they're going to lose their jobs. If the Sox were smart, they should be glad that attendance is as high as it is.

I've been out of work for more than a year. I've been to one game this year and am planning to go to a game next week. I'll tell you what, though. Even if I was a millionaire, I would no longer be a season-ticket holder like I used to be just a couple years ago. Tickets are just too much money. Add the rip-off parking prices and the embarrassing concessions and I don't like feel like dropping around $100 a game to sit in the bleachers. I'm no longer in a hurry to go to a place that's trying to bleed me for every dollar in my wallet. I love the game, but the business of it is nothing short of ugly these days.

Specific to this year, the team has been dead and stupid. Although I like Ozzie, he's been listless to the point of seldom arguing ridiculously-bad calls. I'm tired of watching Ramirez play horribly out of position in double-play situations. I'm tired of watching Brian Anderson sent up to the plate year after year. I'm tired of watching our prized prospect trying to learn a new position at the Major League level.

There's plenty I like about this team, and the future looks pretty bright with our crop of talented young players, but I'm no longer in a hurry to spend $100 to sit 400 feet from home plate and eat overpriced food that's been repeatedly cold and/or stale.

voodoochile
07-08-2009, 10:45 AM
The fact that they're 2 games out of first is irrelevant - nobody's paying attention to a pennant race at the beginning of July. The Sox are on pace to win 84 games right now - a mediocre amount, which is drawing mediocre attendance. The casual fan that opens up the paper and sees 43-40 next to the Sox isn't going to be excited.

Russ isn't a casual fan. I assume he was expressing his own opinion, not attempting to speak for the masses.

I agree with the concept of the casual fan not seeing much reason to pay attention yet. I said as much earlier.

dickallen15
07-08-2009, 10:51 AM
Another thing to consider is the weather. Its been brutal so far this season. A game I was at on June 10th, people were wrapped in blankets, the scoreboard thermometer read 46 degrees. There's been a ton of rain. The Cubs sell almost all of their tickets in February. White Sox fans tend to tread lightly.

Its a shame the White Sox continue to cry about money. The fact is they are the fifth highest ticket in MLB according to the fan index guide. Each team above them has a payroll at least $26 million more than the Sox.

Perhaps not charging premium prices to watch guys like Fields, and Lillibridge and Corky Miller, and watching Colon try to get guys out might encourage more people to come. I would say winning would as well and that has only begun recently. I don't think too many really believe in this team yet, plus there have been plenty of excuses not to go to games and watch it on television.

It is what it is, but Kenny making waves about a lack of support hampering him making big moves is propaganda IMO. When people were flocking to the park in 2006, who did he add? Mike MacDougle. People were still coming in 2007 who did he add? Last year he paid a lot of money for a broken down Griffey who told him his knee was a problem before he agreed to come. I'm hoping this is KW spouting off to make his fellow GM's think he has no money to play with. I cannot see considering the team knows how many tickets they have sold that they could afford Peavy but now are regulated to guys making close to minimum.

thedudeabides
07-08-2009, 10:52 AM
When Manny was suspended, there wasn't one player on the Dodgers who I was interested in watching. I didn't care about their best record in baseball, especially considering it was compiled in a bad league. Making it a "premium" series was downright silly.

How anyone, especially those in the organization, can be surprised by the dip in attendance is beyond me. Attendance is going to continue to decrease next year when season-ticket holders drop off. I don't have to tell anyone the economy is horrible. Official unemployment is at more than 10 percent, real unemployment was recently reported at more than 16 percent and many more people are either underemployed or scared to death they're going to lose their jobs. If the Sox were smart, they should be glad that attendance is as high as it is.

I've been out of work for more than a year. I've been to one game this year and am planning to go to a game next week. I'll tell you what, though. Even if I was a millionaire, I would no longer be a season-ticket holder like I used to be just a couple years ago. Tickets are just too much money. Add the rip-off parking prices and the embarrassing concessions and I don't like feel like dropping around $100 a game to sit in the bleachers. I'm no longer in a hurry to go to a place that's trying to bleed me for every dollar in my wallet. I love the game, but the business of it is nothing short of ugly these days.

Specific to this year, the team has been dead and stupid. Although I like Ozzie, he's been listless to the point of seldom arguing ridiculously-bad calls. I'm tired of watching Ramirez play horribly out of position in double-play situations. I'm tired of watching Brian Anderson sent up to the plate year after year. I'm tired of watching our prized prospect trying to learn a new position at the Major League level.

:clap: You nailed it. For people like myself who are lucky to still have a job, it's getting more and more difficult to get to games. I work at a major financial institution and the best thing that could happen is to get your salary frozen. Some lost their jobs, many had to cut their hours and pay. So many people I have talked to have had to take pay cuts. The last thing they can afford is to go to overpriced Sox games. There just isn't a whole lot of disposable income to go around.

It really wasn't smart to raise tickets this year. In fact, I'm impressed the attendance is where it's at.

I had to cut back on the amount of games this year, and I wanted to see the Dodgers, but once I looked at the prices I realized I could go to two regular priced games for the cost of one weekday game? No chance.

DeuceUnit
07-08-2009, 11:03 AM
I typically average about 25 games a year. This year I have only gone to 2. It's just too much money these days. Even if I am offered free tickets I still am hesitant to go because thats about half the expense. Parking and food are rediculous not to mention if I want to have a couple beers.

jabrch
07-08-2009, 11:04 AM
Perhaps not charging premium prices to watch guys like Fields, and Lillibridge and Corky Miller, and watching Colon try to get guys out might encourage more people to come.

You pay to see those guys? I pay to see PK, JD, Thome, etc.

jabrch
07-08-2009, 11:06 AM
No, it's because we replaced him with (take your pick) Wise, Owens and Anderson.

I can't tell if that's an upgrade or a downgrade. Who the **** cares? Swisher sucked.

russ99
07-08-2009, 11:06 AM
Your "rebuilding club" is 2 games out of first in early July and is showing signs of becoming a second half powerhouse.

It's your perception that are clouding your opinion about this team. You can be stubborn and continue to hold on to that perception or you can jump on up here grab a seat and enjoy the ride. Your choice...

As I said earlier in this thread, things have turned around nicely the last few weeks and I expect attendance to improve.

I also said before the season that due to Kenny's lack of any real acquisitions last offseason, I was cutting back my tickets from a high of 20+ games in 2007. I've been to 4 games so far, and it has little to do with the economy. One of those games was the Dodgers day game, and I went only because I got Club Level seats below face from StubHub.

Besides, I was specifically calling out the first two months of the season when every player Kenny gave a chance to in order to replace a departing vet, has proven that he's not the answer, with Getz being the only possible exception.

soxfanreggie
07-08-2009, 11:09 AM
I would agree that the total cost the games is a hamper to some people, especially those outside of the city. When you have to pay $20+ to park (unless you can find a free spot), and spend several hours driving (gas costs), it can get very expensive to go to more than 2 or 3 games in a year. It would probably be cheaper when I get back to get a hotel somewhere and do a long weekend of games where I can take public transportation to save on parking and not have to drive up there.

When I did my "entertainment budget" for the year, this team on paper, just didn't seem like it warranted trying to make it up to Chicago for 5+ games. I am ecstatic they are doing much better than predicted, but it's near impossible for me to fly up for games right now.

I still buy my Sox merchandise, I watch or listen to almost every game, but I don't think for the foreseeable future that I'll be able to attend more than a few games a year at home. Now on the road, that's a different story, I will attend all of their games in Tampa.

bigdommer
07-08-2009, 11:09 AM
A couple of thoughts:

- this is probably a little bit of posturing by KW. He likes to be a contrarian, active when things are dormant and waiting on the sidelines when the prices are high. For better or worse, almost every move KW has been a surprise.
- Year over year, the attendance is really only down by about 1000 on average. The article mentioned last year's average number, not the average number through the beginning of July. With the Red Sox, Yankees, weather, and a possible contender on the horizon, I imagine that that the gap (4000) to at lease be cut in half.
- I posted in another thread, but while the economy is hurting the Sox, they are probably in better shape than most of the league. The Mets/Dodgers/Angels are locked into some bad payroll, the Yankees spent a ton last season and severly misjudged ticket prices in the new stadium, and the Cubs will have probably have to cut payroll significantly after the sale of the team. That takes some big spenders out of the market, which drives FA prices down. While KW probably won't add payroll, he has a lot of payroll (Thome, Contreras, Dotel) coming off the books. After paying some raises, he might have some $$$ to spend in a down market.

asindc
07-08-2009, 11:13 AM
When Manny was suspended, there wasn't one player on the Dodgers who I was interested in watching. I didn't care about their best record in baseball, especially considering it was compiled in a bad league. Making it a "premium" series was downright silly.

How anyone, especially those in the organization, can be surprised by the dip in attendance is beyond me. Attendance is going to continue to decrease next year when season-ticket holders drop off. I don't have to tell anyone the economy is horrible. Official unemployment is at more than 10 percent, real unemployment was recently reported at more than 16 percent and many more people are either underemployed or scared to death they're going to lose their jobs. If the Sox were smart, they should be glad that attendance is as high as it is.

I've been out of work for more than a year. I've been to one game this year and am planning to go to a game next week. I'll tell you what, though. Even if I was a millionaire, I would no longer be a season-ticket holder like I used to be just a couple years ago. Tickets are just too much money. Add the rip-off parking prices and the embarrassing concessions and I don't like feel like dropping around $100 a game to sit in the bleachers. I'm no longer in a hurry to go to a place that's trying to bleed me for every dollar in my wallet. I love the game, but the business of it is nothing short of ugly these days.

Specific to this year, the team has been dead and stupid. Although I like Ozzie, he's been listless to the point of seldom arguing ridiculously-bad calls. I'm tired of watching Ramirez play horribly out of position in double-play situations. I'm tired of watching Brian Anderson sent up to the plate year after year. I'm tired of watching our prized prospect trying to learn a new position at the Major League level.

There's plenty I like about this team, and the future looks pretty bright with our crop of talented young players, but I'm no longer in a hurry to spend $100 to sit 400 feet from home plate and eat overpriced food that's been repeatedly cold and/or stale.

What makes you think KW is surprised by the drop in attendance? In think the fact that they cut payroll indicates that they anticipated such.

jabrch
07-08-2009, 11:19 AM
How much revenue would come from those 1000 folks? The seats are mostly UD - since a good chunk of the LD are STs - certainly the good ones. Add in the additional revenue... Couldn't be more than $40 per seat average, right? I'm guessing we are taking 5-7mm on the year...that's not the issue.

KW is just blowing smoke. I wouldn't pay attention to what he says until he signs a player - or doesn't sign that player.

kittle42
07-08-2009, 11:20 AM
Its a shame the White Sox continue to cry about money. The fact is they are the fifth highest ticket in MLB according to the fan index guide. Each team above them has a payroll at least $26 million more than the Sox.

Perhaps not charging premium prices to watch guys like Fields, and Lillibridge and Corky Miller, and watching Colon try to get guys out might encourage more people to come. I would say winning would as well and that has only begun recently. I don't think too many really believe in this team yet, plus there have been plenty of excuses not to go to games and watch it on television.

It is what it is, but Kenny making waves about a lack of support hampering him making big moves is propaganda IMO. When people were flocking to the park in 2006, who did he add? Mike MacDougle. People were still coming in 2007 who did he add? Last year he paid a lot of money for a broken down Griffey who told him his knee was a problem before he agreed to come. I'm hoping this is KW spouting off to make his fellow GM's think he has no money to play with. I cannot see considering the team knows how many tickets they have sold that they could afford Peavy but now are regulated to guys making close to minimum.

I completely agree. Sometimes, this team is like listening to a broken record.

PhillipsBubba
07-08-2009, 11:34 AM
Attendance is down primarily because the Sox have not been very good this year. Yes, they are playing better and hopefully that will continue.

Unfortunately for JR and KW, Sox fans don't respond well to bad baseball.

kittle42
07-08-2009, 11:44 AM
Unfortunately for JR and KW, Sox fans don't respond well to bad baseball.

They don't even respond well to bad baseball that somehow wins them a division title in a horrible division. I think *that* is what they need to learn.

Fans would rather see a team that wins 95+ games and a division by 8-10 games than a team that wins 84+ games and stumbles in. It creates bigger buzz, more interest, and, thus, more money.

Spend money to make money. Don't play down to your competition.

LoveYourSuit
07-08-2009, 11:57 AM
Too bad we roadhoused that other thread during dodger series where I was being lambasted on the absurdity of charging more for one team than others. Let's say that each premier priced dodger game pushed away 10000 people (fair number since a good value to best team and amount below season average). That's 30000 fans more for the series and makes the 1000 per game neglible through the first 43 games. now we are playing the attendance debate and the no one comes any more pity threads. Different priced tickets for different MAJOR league teams is an insult and slap in the face.


I agree with you about Premier pricing.

It sucks.

The actual people who even know what the hell a "premier matchup" stands for more than likely already has season tickets because they are true 100% baseball fans.

The casual family of 4 looking to take their kids to a baseball game can give a rats ass if Dodgers, Red Sox, Royals, or Orioles are in town. It's this group who makes up a good portion of the walk up. So they price them out, they just won't show up.

LoveYourSuit
07-08-2009, 12:04 PM
2009 AL Central average attendance:
Tigers 30,260
Twins 27,213
Sox 26,147
Royals 23,699
Indians 22,178

2009 2nd place teams attendance:
Mariners 27,138
Rays 23,003
Rangers 26,705
Marlins 17,724
Braves 28,337
Brewers 37,886
Giants 34,517


This one sticks out to me big time.

- midwest team
- small market
- barely made the playoffs last season just like us
- believe or not even had a ****tier offseason than us
- they have a very mediocre ball club in a crappy division just like us. And they have no pitching.

How the hell can they be avg 11K more than us :scratch:

I realize they have a dome, but speaking to many folks up there they hate watching games there when the roof is closed.

white sox bill
07-08-2009, 12:15 PM
This one sticks out to me big time.

- midwest team
- small market
- barely made the playoffs last season just like us
- believe or not even had a ****tier offseason than us
- they have a very mediocre ball club in a crappy division just like us. And they have no pitching.

How the hell can they be avg 11K more than us :scratch:

I realize they have a dome, but speaking to many folks up there they hate watching games there when the roof is closed.
Good point...maybe playing cubs XX number of times, a sure sell out, helps. No competition from another team in same city?? BTW the numbers that Doc posted were fine but would like to see number of home games played to get a fairer picture of attendance

BubblingCalderon
07-08-2009, 12:18 PM
The Brewers sell out because they are reasonably priced. Also they have great all fan promotions I've been to 4 Brewers games this season. All are sellouts. I pay 10 bucks to sit in the upperdeck and they give everyone a bobblehead. I got Braun, Hoffman and Kendall bobbleheads.

I think the sox attendance issues have allot to do with the large unemployment numbers in the construction industry.

Does anyone know how the Sox TV ratings are? I'm yet to see a game at Comiskey this season but I haven't missed any on TV.

asindc
07-08-2009, 12:18 PM
Good point...maybe playing cubs XX number of times, a sure sell out, helps. No competition from another team in same city?? BTW the numbers that Doc posted were fine but would like to see number of home games played to get a fairer picture of attendance

Add to those very good reasons the fact that

1) there just is not as much to do in Milwaukee as Chicago and

2) they are coming off their first playoff season in 26 years with a real chance to get to the playoffs again.

Sam Spade
07-08-2009, 12:19 PM
KW or Reinsdorf?

If revenue falls, you have to control your costs.

Didn't they already preemptively cut costs? Why do it again?

Sam Spade
07-08-2009, 12:20 PM
Wow, I'm late getting to this thread.

hi im skot
07-08-2009, 12:22 PM
Add to those very good reasons the fact that

1) there just is not as much to do in Milwaukee as Chicago and

2) they are coming off their first playoff season in 26 years with a real chance to get to the playoffs again.

After living in Milwaukee for a year, I can tell you that people flat-out love the Brewers. They've got some exciting young players, a newer stadium, and as mentioned earlier, great promotions.

Also, Brewers games are a great excuse for folks to tailgate, which is obviously legendary in Wisconsin.

ode to veeck
07-08-2009, 12:26 PM
Too bad we roadhoused that other thread during dodger series where I was being lambasted on the absurdity of charging more for one team than others. Let's say that each premier priced dodger game pushed away 10000 people (fair number since a good value to best team and amount below season average). That's 30000 fans more for the series and makes the 1000 per game neglible through the first 43 games. now we are playing the attendance debate and the no one comes any more pity threads. Different priced tickets for different MAJOR league teams is an insult and slap in the face.

Absolutely, and the fans voiced their displeasure by staying away, a sign management should be paying attention to (on BS premium game pricing in a season with a whole lotta games that all count only as one L or one W), not whining about folks not showing up.

ode to veeck
07-08-2009, 12:29 PM
KW can speak his truth all he wants but this team SUCKED the first 2 1/2 months of the season couple that with crappy weather and poof Lower attendance. Remember KW this aint the other side of town. Crappy play means Im saving my dollars for other purposes.

Dropping an easy $30 a ticket, 6.25 for a beer, 4 bucks for a brat. That's 40.00 just for me alone. Not including the $23 to park. Try to bring a family of 3 or 4 and do that math.. Not gonna be at a whole lot of games at that cost.

So dont play the we cant spend without drawing card. It's beneath you KW and insults us.

... and that's not even BS premium pricing

Lip Man 1
07-08-2009, 12:37 PM
Today's news:

Sox fan and former Tribune sports writer Ed Sherman weighs in:

http://www.chicagobusiness.com/cgi-bin/article.pl?page_id=2317&plckController=Blog&plckScript=blogScript&plckElementId=blogDest&plckBlogPage=BlogViewPost&plckPostId=Blog%3af5555513-c950-4657-a93a-80db16fdf4adPost%3a8da71a33-1792-488a-9750-0b42f31fea69&plckCommentSortOrder=TimeStampAscending&sid=sitelife.chicagobusiness.com

and I got this this morning from one of the Sox beat writers:

"One thing I'd never do is tell people, especially during these times, is tell people how to spend their money. The club should know better than to come out and say this when people are losing jobs or finding baseball less affordable to attend.

If there was a comment about losing two corporate sponsors this year and not yet being able to renew contracts with seven other sponsors, I could see this. The easiest thing for a fan to do is sit at home and watch the games, especially after citing attendance "dips."

Corporate sponsorships are fixed income. This tells me they relied heavily on an attendance spike and did a poor job of marketing their 1959 reunion. They could have made this a three-day event by honoring a different group from that team every day during the series, or called it "champions week" and honored the 1959, 1983 and 1993 teams."

All submitted for discussion purposes.

Lip

dickallen15
07-08-2009, 12:39 PM
After living in Milwaukee for a year, I can tell you that people flat-out love the Brewers. They've got some exciting young players, a newer stadium, and as mentioned earlier, great promotions.

Also, Brewers games are a great excuse for folks to tailgate, which is obviously legendary in Wisconsin.

The other thing the dome helps with is you know the game is going to be played and you will be comfortable in April and May and this year even June. The Cubs sell most of their tickets in February. White Sox fans, especially with the economy and the lack of big moves in the off season, take a wait and see approach. If its 35 degrees, they say we'll wait until the weather is nicer, if they see the tickets jacked up, they will go for a cheaper date. I can't blame them. Its just being smart. KW and the White Sox don't want to pay up for better players, why would they expect the fans to pay up for better opponents? White Sox fans are more concerned with their team, not the one they are playing.

Sam Spade
07-08-2009, 12:39 PM
Today's news:

Sox fan and former Tribune sports writer Ed Sherman weighs in:

http://www.chicagobusiness.com/cgi-bin/article.pl?page_id=2317&plckController=Blog&plckScript=blogScript&plckElementId=blogDest&plckBlogPage=BlogViewPost&plckPostId=Blog%3af5555513-c950-4657-a93a-80db16fdf4adPost%3a8da71a33-1792-488a-9750-0b42f31fea69&plckCommentSortOrder=TimeStampAscending&sid=sitelife.chicagobusiness.com

and I got this this morning from one of the Sox beat writers:

"One thing I'd never do is tell people, especially during these times, is tell people how to spend their money. The club should know better than to come out and say this when people are losing jobs or finding baseball less affordable to attend.

If there was a comment about losing two corporate sponsors this year and not yet being able to renew contracts with seven other sponsors, I could see this. The easiest thing for a fan to do is sit at home and watch the games, especially after citing attendance "dips."

Corporate sponsorships are fixed income. This tells me they relied heavily on an attendance spike and did a poor job of marketing their 1959 reunion. They could have made this a three-day event by honoring a different group from that team every day during the series, or called it "champions week" and honored the 1959, 1983 and 1993 teams."

All submitted for discussion purposes.

Lip

Champions week? Get real. No one who is struggling to make ends meet is going to fall for some cheesy ass marketing plan. He is right about the first part, however.

bigdommer
07-08-2009, 12:39 PM
Didn't they already preemptively cut costs? Why do it again?

Because that's how the boom/bust economy works. The bulk of companies spend like crazy during the good times, counting on future revenue streams to fund current investments. And when revenue falls, they have to cut whatever costs they can to hoard cash, telling themselves, "We'll have to cash to spend when we come out of this." If everyone has that mentality, you cannot get ahead of your competitors. Most teams cut payroll heading into 09, and I am guessing every team will cut payroll heading into 10.

The Sox are in better shape than most. JR's reluctancy to hand out huge long term deals has paid off in this environment. His only sizable contracts on the books for 2010 are JD, MB, & PK, and they are all performing at a reasonable level and the terms are relatively short. We aren't stuck with a Soriano, Zito, Wells, Fukodome, Hafner, Helton, Posada, Matsui....the list is endless.

dickallen15
07-08-2009, 12:42 PM
Today's news:

Sox fan and former Tribune sports writer Ed Sherman weighs in:

http://www.chicagobusiness.com/cgi-bin/article.pl?page_id=2317&plckController=Blog&plckScript=blogScript&plckElementId=blogDest&plckBlogPage=BlogViewPost&plckPostId=Blog%3af5555513-c950-4657-a93a-80db16fdf4adPost%3a8da71a33-1792-488a-9750-0b42f31fea69&plckCommentSortOrder=TimeStampAscending&sid=sitelife.chicagobusiness.com

and I got this this morning from one of the Sox beat writers:

"One thing I'd never do is tell people, especially during these times, is tell people how to spend their money. The club should know better than to come out and say this when people are losing jobs or finding baseball less affordable to attend.

If there was a comment about losing two corporate sponsors this year and not yet being able to renew contracts with seven other sponsors, I could see this. The easiest thing for a fan to do is sit at home and watch the games, especially after citing attendance "dips."

Corporate sponsorships are fixed income. This tells me they relied heavily on an attendance spike and did a poor job of marketing their 1959 reunion. They could have made this a three-day event by honoring a different group from that team every day during the series, or called it "champions week" and honored the 1959, 1983 and 1993 teams."

All submitted for discussion purposes.

Lip

Lip,
I've been a Sox fan longer than most on this board. I just wonder how many Sox fans really want to "celebrate" the 59 team anymore, especially "celebrating" it during a series against the organization that ultimately beat them. It was 50 years ago. Why aren't we celebrating the other teams that won?

Sam Spade
07-08-2009, 12:46 PM
Because that's how the boom/bust economy works. The bulk of companies spend like crazy during the good times, counting on future revenue streams to fund current investments. And when revenue falls, they have to cut whatever costs they can to hoard cash, telling themselves, "We'll have to cash to spend when we come out of this." If everyone has that mentality, you cannot get ahead of your competitors. Most teams cut payroll heading into 09, and I am guessing every team will cut payroll heading into 10.

The Sox are in better shape than most. JR's reluctancy to hand out huge long term deals has paid off in this environment. His only sizable contracts on the books for 2010 are JD, MB, & PK, and they are all performing at a reasonable level and the terms are relatively short. We aren't stuck with a Soriano, Zito, Wells, Fukodome, Hafner, Helton, Posada, Matsui....the list is endless.
Just because most other MLB franchises are cutting doesn't make it the smartest strategy. If attendance is important to a team, or if they are going to complain about attendance, their economic policies might differ from a team like the giants, brewers or cubs.

Lip Man 1
07-08-2009, 12:49 PM
Dick:

That's a very good point. I'm sure a lot of Sox fans depending on your generation have close ties to the 1972, 1977, 1983, 1990, 1993 and 2000 clubs.

I guess you have to go back to something Brooks Boyer told me in his interview with WSI, to perhaps get some of the answer:

ML: “Throwback” games and weekends are very popular around major league baseball. Last year the Sox had the chance to honor the 1967, 1972 and 1977 clubs on their 40th, 35th and 30th anniversaries respectively, yet you chose to go in a different direction. This isn’t a criticism but I’m wondering why you didn’t?

BB: “That’s a very fair question. With no disrespect to those teams, some of the best loved in Sox history, they didn’t get to the World Series. To some fans, 1977 for example, just isn’t relevant. We honored the 1959 team with a weekend because they got to the World Series. A few years ago we honored the 20th anniversary of the 1983 team because they were special to a large number of our fans. We’re going to do something again this season on the 25th anniversary but it won’t be as involved. We’ll have a game where we wear the 1983 style uniforms. We’ll also have our ‘halfway to St. Patrick’s Day,’ where we wear the green uniforms and we’ve got the camouflage jerseys on July 4th. We don’t want this to become gimmicky, we want to do things that are relevant to our current fans. (Author’s Note: It was at this point that I tried to sell Brooks on the idea of the red pinstriped era, aka Dick Allen and how special that was to my generation!)

Lip

jdm2662
07-08-2009, 12:49 PM
Here is my question to all of you.

I was at KC this weekend. They have a kick ass ball park and scoreboard, reasonably priced tickets, the staff there is very nice, and my ballpark experience was quite a bit better than any of my trips to Comiskey this year. However, other than Grienke (who lost Friday) and Soria, there is no reason to watch the team. Knowing the above, would you still go, eventhough the team isn't very good. I see a lot of people complaining about the experience, staff, and prices here. Well, everything there is top notch. I will say this, the fans that where there were very into their team. KC is a pretty good baseball town.

Oh yeah, to add, the stadium is near almost nothing. So, no night life.

I was also at the Brewers game on that Saturday. They have an awesome tailgate atmosphere, tickets were a bit lower, and the stadium seemed alright. They had a worse off season than the Sox did, and they have to deal with Cubbie fans 6-9 times a year (compared to three for us). They, like the Sox, haven't looked great, but still in the hunt in a rather so so division. So, would going to games still be a problem here?

BleacherBandit
07-08-2009, 12:52 PM
Lip,
I've been a Sox fan longer than most on this board. I just wonder how many Sox fans really want to "celebrate" the 59 team anymore, especially "celebrating" it during a series against the organization that ultimately beat them. It was 50 years ago. Why aren't we celebrating the other teams that won?

Because they didn't go to the World Series. I've only been a fan for around 20 years, and even I understand the significance of that team. I've also been aided by "Greatest Sox Moments" DVD I was just given that detailed the frenzy Chicago provided for that team when it won the pennant. That type of support wasn't seen even in 2005. I even think some people said "screw it" and dropped their alligience for the Cubs for a few weeks. I think you would have to look at its importance being pushed by the organization not because they want to celebrate a team that didn't even win the World Series, but because they want to celebrate a team that was significant to the city in their opinion.

Lip Man 1
07-08-2009, 01:03 PM
I also just noticed something. It seems odd to me. Kenny's comments are getting big play in the mainstream media outlets but looking through the past stories at Whitesox.com I don't see anything on it.

Scott Merkin if memory serves, has stories on the Pena deal and the fact that even small trades are important to the Sox and quotes Williams but doesn't have anything on Kenny's attendance comments.

I often see a disclaimer that no stories are edited by the Sox or MLB at that site but it seems very unusual to me that nothing on this is mentioned.

Lip

dickallen15
07-08-2009, 01:07 PM
Because they didn't go to the World Series. I've only been a fan for around 20 years, and even I understand the significance of that team. I've also been aided by "Greatest Sox Moments" DVD I was just given that detailed the frenzy Chicago provided for that team when it won the pennant. That type of support wasn't seen even in 2005. I even think some people said "screw it" and dropped their alligience for the Cubs for a few weeks. I think you would have to look at its importance being pushed by the organization not because they want to celebrate a team that didn't even win the World Series, but because they want to celebrate a team that was significant to the city in their opinion.

We don't celebrate the other White Sox teams that actually won the WS. That's the point I'm making. While there is a significance, I don't think the average fan puts much stock in the 1959 White Sox these days.

fox23
07-08-2009, 01:07 PM
One thing that I wonder is how much of the drop in attendance has been offset by the increase in ticket prices? I know my season tickets went up about 10% from last year. I have to believe that if we are really only down about 1,000 people a game from last year at this point, a good portion of that has been made up by the increase in prices.

Add to that the decrease in payroll from last year, and it seems to me that either the Sox went into the red last year to pay for the team or something is fishy with KW's remarks.

voodoochile
07-08-2009, 01:08 PM
I also just noticed something. It seems odd to me. Kenny's comments are getting big play in the mainstream media outlets but looking through the past stories at Whitesox.com I don't see anything on it.

Scott Merkin if memory serves, has stories on the Pena deal and the fact that even small trades are important to the Sox and quotes Williams but doesn't have anything on Kenny's attendance comments.

I often see a disclaimer that no stories are edited by the Sox or MLB at that site but it seems very unusual to me that nothing on this is mentioned.

Lip

The Sox site is a marketing site, not a news site. They aren't going to cover stuff that might be considered detrimental to the teams financial health or cause negative public perception. They aren't going to play up the idea that the Sox probably won't be spending a lot of money at the trade deadline anymore than a laundry detergent manufacturer's website would admit that "new and improved" means they changed the color and upped the price.

Sam Spade
07-08-2009, 01:10 PM
The Sox site is a marketing site, not a news site. They aren't going to cover stuff that might be considered detrimental to the teams financial health or cause negative public perception. They aren't going to play up the idea that the Sox probably won't be spending a lot of money at the trade deadline anymore than a laundry detergent manufacturer's website would admit that "new and improved" means they changed the color and upped the price.

Um, you would think that the GM of the Sox would have the sense not to make news about the teams financial health that would cause negative public perception, then, wouldn't you?

RCWHITESOX
07-08-2009, 01:15 PM
I really think you're overstating that affect, especially in baseball, where walk-up ticket sales still matter. Yeah, maybe if the Sox acquired Halladay his first start at the Cell might be a big deal, but the bottom line is still the win-loss column. People will come if you win. They won't if you don't.

Your absolutely right! The Sox are pretty much like any club; when there playing winning ball fans show up and when they do not the opposite occurs. There is allways exceptions like the Cubs,Yankee's, Dodgers, but were not in that group. Baseball is an entertainment when you play winning ball everyone is excited and wants to be part of that. I'm sure that if they continue to play winning baseball in the secondhalf fan support will be back. I would love to see them get Halladay but not at the expense of trading Beckham, Danks, or Ramirez.

dickallen15
07-08-2009, 01:15 PM
Um, you would think that the GM of the Sox would have the sense not to make news about the teams financial health that would cause negative public perception, then, wouldn't you?

You would think after years and years of crying poor, the Sox could keep their mouths shut. They don't want to be gimmicky, yet they have honored the 1983 team how many times, while never honoring the 1993 team. Do you think it has anything to do with jerseys? 1993 and now are the same. 1983 they can get folks to buy some new ones.

voodoochile
07-08-2009, 01:16 PM
Um, you would think that the GM of the Sox would have the sense not to make news about the teams financial health that would cause negative public perception, then, wouldn't you?

Yes, but I don't know the context to which all of this came out. Did someone ask KW a question and he answered or did he go running to a news media outlet to scream poor? I'd guess the former, but admit I don't know. If that's the case, then KW is guilty of being too honest. On the other hand, he didn't say he blamed the fans, quite the opposite. He was merely stating that times are tough and that it doesn't look good for adding a bunch of payroll at the present. Basically he said that times are tough for the Sox organization too.

I'm not surprised people are taking the ball and running with it. Fans have long accused the JR management team of being cheap and timid and a few years of plus payroll aren't going to change that fact. Sox fans have a long memory and a thin skin. Many of them tend to jump at any perceived slight and start wailing and moaning (see the PK article thread in which the writer called PK an OF'er and many of the posters have decided that means the Sox are second class citizens and alsorans in terms of media coverage).

People can bitch and moan about this stuff all they want. I'm sticking with KW...

bigdommer
07-08-2009, 01:17 PM
Just because most other MLB franchises are cutting doesn't make it the smartest strategy. If attendance is important to a team, or if they are going to complain about attendance, their economic policies might differ from a team like the giants, brewers or cubs.

I agree, I don't think it's the smart thing to do. JR is probably like every other business owner in the country right now: scared as heck and hoarding every penny he can for better days. Employment, consumer spending, ticket sales are all lagging indicators for the economy. The winners are the ones who can accurately gauge when things are going to turn.

A couple of MLB teams are going to set themselves up nicely for 2010 and beyond. Smart GM's with savvy owners are going to be able to lock up premier players at generational low prices. I don't know when that will be, how much money will be spent, and who those players are. But the point of my comment is that the Sox management, while shortsided with their comments and/or policies, are in better shape than their peers.

dickallen15
07-08-2009, 01:18 PM
People can bitch and moan about this stuff all they want. I'm sticking with KW...

People are commenting on KW's bitching and moaning. He should do better than Wise, Lillibridge, Fields, Colon, Owens, then pop off. Give the fans a reason to extend themselves.

Maybe the fans are saying, "Hey Kenny, I would have loved to gone to see the Dodgers but I can't spend $1 if all I have is $.50." He might recognize that one.

voodoochile
07-08-2009, 01:22 PM
People are commenting on KW's bitching and moaning. He should do better than Wise, Lillibridge, Fields, Colon, Owens, then pop off.

Two of those players aren't even on the team. One is injured and has been replaced by the first backup who is performing adequately as a 5th starter. One is seeing spot starts because of injury and the other guy is also riding the bench. Looks to me like he actually is doing better than those players at present, but hey, feel free to keep tossing out a bunch of bull****, some of it is sure to stick to the walls...

doublem23
07-08-2009, 01:22 PM
This one sticks out to me big time.

- midwest team
- small market
- barely made the playoffs last season just like us
- believe or not even had a ****tier offseason than us
- they have a very mediocre ball club in a crappy division just like us. And they have no pitching.

How the hell can they be avg 11K more than us :scratch:

I realize they have a dome, but speaking to many folks up there they hate watching games there when the roof is closed.

If they were smart, they would have made fans plop down deposits for season tickets to get play-off tickets from last year. First play-off appearance in 17 years, I think people would be willing to make it hurt to get there.

dickallen15
07-08-2009, 01:31 PM
Two of those players aren't even on the team. One is injured and has been replaced by the first backup who is performing adequately as a 5th starter. One is seeing spot starts because of injury and the other guy is also riding the bench. Looks to me like he actually is doing better than those players at present, but hey, feel free to keep tossing out a bunch of bull****, some of it is sure to stick to the walls...

When morons like me knew from the start those were all bad ideas, it makes you wonder what the White Sox were thinking but keep defending the GM using Wise and Lillibridge as lead off hitters for a major league team until it took him a month and a half to find out what everyone else already knew.

I think its imperative the Sox are good enough they can request non refundable playoff ticket money again this year. If not, I think there will be a mass exit of season ticket accounts.

roylestillman
07-08-2009, 01:33 PM
I really think economic problems are worse than even the unemployment numbers are showing. How many people have you talked to lately that are having to take unpaid furlough or straight salary cuts. Here's a clue from the State of Illinois' personal income tax collection since the beginning of the year. The % decrease is the reduction of receipts from the same month in 2008:

Jan.: -6.3%
Feb.: -10.0%
Mar.: -5.2%
Apr.: -25.3%
May: -25.0%
Jun.: -12.9%

(Source: http://www.ilga.gov/commission/cgfa2006/Resource.aspx?id=2 )

This is an astonishing reduction in earnings of people in Illinois. Its not the only factor in attendance drop, but its got to be a big factor.

Trav
07-08-2009, 01:33 PM
This is a JR talking point. It is as tired as it is old. It makes me want to spend as little as possible on anything that goes towards the MLB and its teams. Owners make money hand over fist for the most part. Complaining about players salaries and fan attendance is classless coming from billionaires.

Lip Man 1
07-08-2009, 01:36 PM
For what it's worth over the course of my interviews for WSI, I've spoken with two people who know members of the Sox Board of Directors.

One of those actually does some work for one of them.

Both have told me off the record that the "White Sox haven't lost money in a long time..."

Lip

jabrch
07-08-2009, 01:37 PM
I'm still amazed people get up in arms over what Williams says. Haven't we learned yet not to listen to him?

Lip Man 1
07-08-2009, 01:39 PM
Jab:

As others have stated it may be all smoke and mirrors, it may be as Ed Sherman wrote, that Kenny is too honest for his own good, but regardless as Tony 1972 wrote in his comments, it makes for negative PR... something the Sox should have learned 15 years ago.

Whether prompted or not Kenny shouldn't have even gone into this area in the first place.

Lip

dickallen15
07-08-2009, 01:42 PM
So let me get this straight, JR owns a charter member of the AL, in a major city and has a WS championship in the past 5 years, but can't make enough money to add parts to win another and wants to buy a hockey team that plays in the desert who has never even broke even since they landed in their new city.

russ99
07-08-2009, 01:44 PM
Here is my question to all of you.

I was at KC this weekend. They have a kick ass ball park and scoreboard, reasonably priced tickets, the staff there is very nice, and my ballpark experience was quite a bit better than any of my trips to Comiskey this year. However, other than Grienke (who lost Friday) and Soria, there is no reason to watch the team. Knowing the above, would you still go, eventhough the team isn't very good. I see a lot of people complaining about the experience, staff, and prices here. Well, everything there is top notch. I will say this, the fans that where there were very into their team. KC is a pretty good baseball town.

Oh yeah, to add, the stadium is near almost nothing. So, no night life.

I was also at the Brewers game on that Saturday. They have an awesome tailgate atmosphere, tickets were a bit lower, and the stadium seemed alright. They had a worse off season than the Sox did, and they have to deal with Cubbie fans 6-9 times a year (compared to three for us). They, like the Sox, haven't looked great, but still in the hunt in a rather so so division. So, would going to games still be a problem here?

For me, it's not going to games. If the Sox had the worst team in the league, I'd still go to 2-3 games a year. For me it's frequency. If the Sox want me to spend a large percentage of my summer entertainment budget on 15-25 Sox games, they need to field a contender.

I got burned in 2007 - with an Ozzie plan and 6-8 sets of tickets where I knew the team would suck and had to go. This year with the payroll purge and winter inactivity I wasn't taking chances and only got 4-5 games worth and now that the team looks like they're making a decent run, I'm going to get some seats to mid-July games.

bigdommer
07-08-2009, 01:45 PM
This is a JR talking point. It is as tired as it is old. It makes me want to spend as little as possible on anything that goes towards the MLB and its teams. Owners make money hand over fist for the most part. Complaining about players salaries and fan attendance is classless coming from billionaires.

To further your point, David Stern is using the recession to lower the salary cap. He has been hinting at this all year.

While JR's complaining is tired, every owner is in the same spot, and it will simply lower salaries across the board. The Texiera's and Sabathia's of the world will still get the big dollars, but I think the Cabrera and Abreu (big paycuts for mid-tier FA's) deals will become the norm.

ode to veeck
07-08-2009, 01:51 PM
People can bitch and moan about this stuff all they want. I'm sticking with KW...

I'm usually for sticking with Kenny, but not at all in this case, especially when he specifically called out the Dodgers series (even if he was prompted by not detailed in the story questions) ... on account of the just pain bone headed premium pricing.

It's a sign that management just doesn't get it when their customer base makes a clear satement (by smartly not coughing up the extortionist pricing for the Dodgers series) and management instead appears to choose to whine with their their heads stuck in the sand instead of listening to the customer base. Poor quality management or bad off the cuff remarks by KW, bad either way.

voodoochile
07-08-2009, 02:02 PM
When morons like me knew from the start those were all bad ideas, it makes you wonder what the White Sox were thinking but keep defending the GM using Wise and Lillibridge as lead off hitters for a major league team until it took him a month and a half to find out what everyone else already knew.

I think its imperative the Sox are good enough they can request non refundable playoff ticket money again this year. If not, I think there will be a mass exit of season ticket accounts.

And of those players how many were actually scheduled as starters when the season started? Ozzie chose Wise over BA. Lillibridge only made the team out of necessity and was sent down the minute it was possible. Fields was definitely due his shot and had a monster spring too boot. Colon was a calculated inexpensive gamble with plenty of backup options.

Define "mass exodus" please. Is that based on percentage or gross numbers?

If you think it's because KW was a bit too honest in early July then I think you're just grinding an axe.

voodoochile
07-08-2009, 02:05 PM
So let me get this straight, JR owns a charter member of the AL, in a major city and has a WS championship in the past 5 years, but can't make enough money to add parts to win another and wants to buy a hockey team that plays in the desert who has never even broke even since they landed in their new city.

Clearly the money hasn't been the issue until this year.

Edit: And what exactly does JR's personal money or the money he puts together to buy another franchise have to do with the money the team spends? Should they be taking money from the Bulls to up the Sox payroll too?

chisoxfanatic
07-08-2009, 02:07 PM
If they were smart, they would have made fans plop down deposits for season tickets to get play-off tickets from last year. First play-off appearance in 17 years, I think people would be willing to make it hurt to get there.
I think it's pretty ****ty that they don't tell us what the cost of our season tickets will be until after we have to commit to them. This is definitely my last season with my ticket plan. I can attend almost every Blackhawks game and pay about the same as I paid for my 27-game plan this year. I know it's 300 Level at the UC compared to 100 level at Comiskey, but that's just unacceptable since there are 41 home games for the Hawks, and parking is included in the figure.

Jim Shorts
07-08-2009, 02:16 PM
Two of those players aren't even on the team. One is injured and has been replaced by the first backup who is performing adequately as a 5th starter. One is seeing spot starts because of injury and the other guy is also riding the bench. Looks to me like he actually is doing better than those players at present, but hey, feel free to keep tossing out a bunch of bull****, some of it is sure to stick to the walls...

You helped prove his point. They brought in garbage to start, then had to replace that garbage with new garbage.

Kenny cried poor, then realized his mistake and tried to soften it. He needs to deal with backlash of not learning from past mistakes.

Lip Man 1
07-08-2009, 02:24 PM
Jim:

Good point. I said kind of the same thing along the lines of when your 'big' off season moves are Colon, Betemit, Corky Miller and Lillibridge, Sox fans aren't going to be exactly lining up for tickets.

Ozzie put down Sox fans in April when he said along the lines of, 'they want an All Star at every position and they want a 300 million dollar payroll...'

No Sox fans don't necessarily want that, but they do want a team that can compete for a chance to get back to the World Series. When over 25% of your team at one point had Wise, Anderson, Miller, Betemit, Lillibridge, MacDougal, Colon and Contreras (who was horrible at the time) that's stretching reality to think this was a realistic possibility.

Sox fans are smart and savvy they knew early on this team couldn't do that. In fact in a medioce division they aren't even in first place as of this writing.

Like many have said, Kenny should know better and have just not gone there in the first place.

Lip

thegooch
07-08-2009, 02:26 PM
I think it's pretty ****ty that they don't tell us what the cost of our season tickets will be until after we have to commit to them. This is definitely my last season with my ticket plan. I can attend almost every Blackhawks game and pay about the same as I paid for my 27-game plan this year. I know it's 300 Level at the UC compared to 100 level at Comiskey, but that's just unacceptable since there are 41 home games for the Hawks, and parking is included in the figure.

The 300 level at the UC for Hawks games is the best deal going for season tickets out of all the pro-sports in chicago IMO.

I really hope that Kenny was prompted when he let loose about the Dodgers series underperforming in terms of attendance. If not, it was a mistake to address this through the media.

I expect the media to not do their due diligence and dig into the reasons why the series wasn't well attended, it's become the norm. And it's sad.

doublem23
07-08-2009, 02:29 PM
No Sox fans don't necessarily want that, but they do want a team that can compete for a chance to get back to the World Series. When over 25% of your team at one point had Wise, Anderson, Miller, Betemit, Lillibridge, MacDougal, Colon and Contreras (who was horrible at the time) that's stretching reality to think this was a realistic possibility.


Boy, this sounds a lot like the "smart and savvy" fans who, going into 2005 were up in arms about the Sox starting the year with a Japanese 2B,
an injury risk at RF, and that guy we traded El Caballo for in LF.

Oblong
07-08-2009, 02:32 PM
For what it's worth, Tiger attendance is down about 9,000 a game from last year. Granted a huge chunk of that is due to the abnormal amount of season ticket holders last year as a result of the Cabrera deal but just casual observation of the games I've been to this summer tells me there's a lot fewer fans than last year, even though the 2008 team was a stinker and this year's team is in first place.

I really do think it's the economy. Look at this link (http://www.baseball-reference.com/leagues/current_attendance.shtml) I wouldn't say it's because of a lack of interest or fan apathy towards the Sox. Hasn't the weather been crappy too?

voodoochile
07-08-2009, 02:36 PM
You helped prove his point. They brought in garbage to start, then had to replace that garbage with new garbage.

Kenny cried poor, then realized his mistake and tried to soften it. He needs to deal with backlash of not learning from past mistakes.

Of the players he mentioned only two were scheduled to start the year as starters for the Sox - Wise and Fields. Wise was a platoon situation. Two didn't even make the opening day roster (Owens and Lillibridge).

Counting Colon, I guess it's three starters, but Colon didn't actually pitch horribly while he was healthy. Yeah, he could have allowed less earned runs, but over all, not bad for a guy slotted to be the fifth starter and since KW had three potential backups (as he did for 2B and 3B) it's not like he was completely unprepared for failure. 2B worked out. 3B didn't and the first backup was a dud, so they went to number 3 and it's been fine ever since. The minute Nix was healthy, Lillibridge got sent down and now the utility player is someone who can actually hit a bit (good job with that first backup option at 2B, KW). When the CF slot didn't work out and leadoff seemed to be a need position, KW went and signed another player and that's proven to be great. Too bad TCQ got injured this team might be 10 games over .500 and all this noise about crappy players would be just that, noise...

voodoochile
07-08-2009, 02:37 PM
For what it's worth, Tiger attendance is down about 9,000 a game from last year. Granted a huge chunk of that is due to the abnormal amount of season ticket holders last year as a result of the Cabrera deal but just casual observation of the games I've been to this summer tells me there's a lot fewer fans than last year, even though the 2008 team was a stinker and this year's team is in first place.

I really do think it's the economy. Look at this link (http://www.baseball-reference.com/leagues/current_attendance.shtml) I wouldn't say it's because of a lack of interest or fan apathy towards the Sox. Hasn't the weather been crappy too?

Thank goodness for Kitten fans... Nice to have someone else who gets it...

dickallen15
07-08-2009, 02:44 PM
Clearly the money hasn't been the issue until this year.

Edit: And what exactly does JR's personal money or the money he puts together to buy another franchise have to do with the money the team spends? Should they be taking money from the Bulls to up the Sox payroll too?

JR doesn't do bad deals. If owning professional sports franchises was as un-lucrative as he and many of his fellow owners want everyone to believe, a 72 year old man wouldn't be working on acquiring his 3rd franchise.

I wonder if he gets the franchise in Phoenix if he'll get his GM to tell the fans they will have to pay more for an even worse product and if they don't show up, they won't improve the team. The fans will have only themselves to blame.

If the Sox suck, its because the fans didn't want to spend the money necessary to put a winning team on the field. If they win, the one time they did, its because of the pure genius of KW, Ozzie and JR.

Why does White Sox and attendance have to be dragged through the media again, this time by a White Sox executive? It must have been Christmas morning for Marriotti reading KW's comments today.

Iwritecode
07-08-2009, 02:51 PM
I don't know if this had been posted yet but even Brooks admits that they screwed up the pricing on the Dodger series.

link (http://scottmerkin.mlblogs.com/archives/2009/07/support_your_local_team.html)

ode to veeck
07-08-2009, 02:54 PM
Why does White Sox and attendance have to be dragged through the media again, this time by a White Sox executive? It must have been Christmas morning for Marriotti reading KW's comments today.

I don't waste my time trying to figure what goes through such a moron's mind; it's a waste of a thought to even consider it.

Dibbs
07-08-2009, 02:54 PM
Attendance is down because payroll was cut $25 million and was replaced with crap. That has more to do with it than the economy.

LITTLE NELL
07-08-2009, 02:55 PM
I'm a little confused at what constitutes a good year at the gate. I'm an old timer and remember when 1 million was the holy grail. It seems to me that if a team draws 2 million in this day and age they are doing quite well. If 23,000 turn out on a weeknight when most people have to get up and work the next day, I think thats pretty good too. I know some teams just have to open the gates and they sell out but those teams are the exception rather than the rule.
I usually go through the schedule at the beginning of the year and I predicted the Sox would draw 2.3 million this year which is about 28,000 a game. We are averaging 26,000 but we have the Yankees and Red Sox coming in later on.

LoveYourSuit
07-08-2009, 02:59 PM
For what it's worth, Tiger attendance is down about 9,000 a game from last year. Granted a huge chunk of that is due to the abnormal amount of season ticket holders last year as a result of the Cabrera deal but just casual observation of the games I've been to this summer tells me there's a lot fewer fans than last year, even though the 2008 team was a stinker and this year's team is in first place.

I really do think it's the economy. Look at this link (http://www.baseball-reference.com/leagues/current_attendance.shtml) I wouldn't say it's because of a lack of interest or fan apathy towards the Sox. Hasn't the weather been crappy too?

2 things:

1. The economic collapse in Detroit does not compare to Chicago.
2. The Tigers sucked ass last year and finished last. The Sox won the division.

LoveYourSuit
07-08-2009, 03:01 PM
I'm a little confused at what constitutes a good year at the gate. I'm an old timer and remember when 1 million was the holy grail. It seems to me that if a team draws 2 million in this day and age they are doing quite well. If 23,000 turn out on a weeknight when most people have to get up and work the next day, I think thats pretty good too. I know some teams just have to open the gates and they sell out but those teams are the exception rather than the rule.
I usually go through the schedule at the beginning of the year and I predicted the Sox would draw 2.3 million this year which is about 28,000 a game. We are averaging 26,000 but we have the Yankees and Red Sox coming in later on.


I think in this era of $100 million payrolls.... A team must average 30K to stay in the game.

voodoochile
07-08-2009, 03:04 PM
Attendance is down because payroll was cut $25 million and was replaced with crap. That has more to do with it than the economy.

Well there ya go... :rolleyes:

jdm2662
07-08-2009, 03:07 PM
THE ONLY REASON to get upset over this whole quote per say is it is bad PR. I take Kenny Williams' comments seriously about as often as I take ESPN seriously.

Oblong
07-08-2009, 03:07 PM
another thing to consider is the type of fan that makes up the difference between attendance from year to year usually doesn't know enough about the team to care about the fifth starter or new role players. They are casual fans. They know Dye, Konerko, Buehrle, Jenks.... they're probably looking around the park trying to find Javy Vasquez. Every team has it's hardcore fans who go to pretty much the same # of games per year, regardless of performance. Why? Because they love the game of baseball and if they were born in Cleveland or Milwaukee or Detroit, they'd be diehard Indian, Brewer, or Tiger fans. The kind of fans that cause attendance to fluctuate have a limited amount of money to spend on extras like baseball. Maybe they decide to go to an amusement park or to the beach. Maybe they decided to buy a boat. Or maybe the weather hasn't been that nice and going to game hasn't registered in their head yet, they don't want to be outside in chilly weather. "We'll go in late July when it's hot out." I doubt it's because of Dewayne Wise or Brian Anderson. They probably think those guys play for the Bulls.

southside rocks
07-08-2009, 03:09 PM
Attendance is down because payroll was cut $25 million and was replaced with crap. That has more to do with it than the economy.

Yes, if only Kenny hadn't traded Nick Swisher ... :rolleyes:

Hitmen77
07-08-2009, 03:13 PM
For what it's worth, Tiger attendance is down about 9,000 a game from last year. Granted a huge chunk of that is due to the abnormal amount of season ticket holders last year as a result of the Cabrera deal but just casual observation of the games I've been to this summer tells me there's a lot fewer fans than last year, even though the 2008 team was a stinker and this year's team is in first place.

I really do think it's the economy. Look at this link (http://www.baseball-reference.com/leagues/current_attendance.shtml) I wouldn't say it's because of a lack of interest or fan apathy towards the Sox. Hasn't the weather been crappy too?

Great input.

No doubt it's the economy. Teams like the Cubs and Red Sox can absorb it because for every family that has to cut back on games, there is a deep supply of tourists and happily employed 20-somethings to buy those tickets. Most other teams are going to see an impact at the gate.

....and yes, the weather has been incredibly crappy this year. Lots of rainy and cold days - much more so than usual. No doubt that impacts attendance.

southside rocks
07-08-2009, 03:32 PM
I really do think it's the economy. Look at this link (http://www.baseball-reference.com/leagues/current_attendance.shtml) I wouldn't say it's because of a lack of interest or fan apathy towards the Sox. Hasn't the weather been crappy too?

That's interesting. The majority of teams (20) have lower attendance this year, 17 of those teams significantly (which I'm defining as more than 1,000 fans per game). Ten teams have increased attendance, 8 of them significantly (again, more than 1,000 fans per game).

The Sox seem to be about in the middle of the pack.

I don't think that anybody who's working for a living doubts the effect that the recession has had on disposable income for most people. A friend of mine, a union carpenter, was just told that in the next 12 months, he has to take 71 unpaid days off. That's so the union can avoid layoffs. So the carpenters in his local are looking at THREE MONTHS of no work in the coming year, and no income for thost three months. Think he's buying baseball tickets? :o:

bigdommer
07-08-2009, 03:42 PM
Attendance is down because payroll was cut $25 million and was replaced with crap. That has more to do with it than the economy.

It is ironic that payroll is cut by $25MM because of the economy, but ticket prices went up 5%, in spite of the economy. I guess you don't "pay for what you get."

Dibbs
07-08-2009, 03:43 PM
Well there ya go... :rolleyes:

Roll eyes if you want. There was ZERO excitement coming into this season. The least amount of excitement since I can remember. That is Kenny's fault.

asindc
07-08-2009, 03:45 PM
2 things:

1. The economic collapse in Detroit does not compare to Chicago.
2. The Tigers sucked ass last year and finished last. The Sox won the division.

These are the playoff teams from last year who are down in attendance so far this year (for those that did not bother to click on the link in Oblong's post):

Sox: -2,477 per game
LAD: -1,839
Cubs: -485

The other playoff teams:

Boston: +213
LAAAA: +342
Milw: +2,468
Phil: +2,834
Tampa: +2,729

Make of it what you will, but I would like to know how the LAD, Cubs, Boston, and LAAAA numbers can be explained, given that they also made the playoffs last year.

soxfanreggie
07-08-2009, 03:51 PM
Not surprising that Tampa is up, as they have probably been trending up. They also probably benefit from the W.S. appearance like we did. They are having a decent 2009 so far, which could mean an even bigger attendance next year if unemployment in the area down here trails off.

Boston should be up as well by as many seats as they add to Fenway Park as they hit 500 sell-outs in a row this year.

http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/2009/baseball/mlb/06/17/redsox.sellout.ap/index.html

I don't think they could feasibly add enough seats to Fenway right now to match their demand. However, that creates a high price point for those tickets as so many people want them.

It's also not surprising that the Sox and Cubs are down with how the seasons started (or in the Cubs' case, continues). If the Sox can get in a playoff run, you can bet that attendance figure will jump up.

LoveYourSuit
07-08-2009, 03:52 PM
These are the playoff teams from last year who are down in attendance so far this year (for those that did not bother to click on the link in Oblong's post):

Sox: -2,477 per game
LAD: -1,839
Cubs: -485

The other playoff teams:

Boston: +213
LAAAA: +342
Milw: +2,468
Phil: +2,834
Tampa: +2,729

Make of it what you will, but I would like to know how the LAD, Cubs, Boston, and LAAAA numbers can be explained, given that they also made the playoffs last year.


The Cubs losing 485 per game is them losing 485 Standing room folks. Every seat has a person on it.

The Dodgers? I think Manny being out has played a factor? Maybe. But still, that's a team that's AVG over 40K. Losing 1800 is not a big deal.

Us losing 2500 from 28K ..... that's a big deal. It's a higher %.

thedudeabides
07-08-2009, 03:52 PM
Attendance is down because payroll was cut $25 million and was replaced with crap. That has more to do with it than the economy.

If you really think that is true, than you are just blind to what is going on around you.

It's Dankerific
07-08-2009, 03:56 PM
The solution to the White Sox attendance problem is to get in first and stay there. Not the other way around.

asindc
07-08-2009, 04:21 PM
The Cubs losing 485 per game is them losing 485 Standing room folks. Every seat has a person on it.

The Dodgers? I think Manny being out has played a factor? Maybe. But still, that's a team that's AVG over 40K. Losing 1800 is not a big deal.

Us losing 2500 from 28K ..... that's a big deal. It's a higher %.

The issue you raised wasn't whether or not the Sox could afford to be down, but that the FO and on-field performance was the reason for the decrease in attendance.

Oh heck, just for the giggles... the teams who are currently in 1st place in their division or within 3 games of 1st in their division at the moment, since you cite Manny being out as a possible factor in LAD's decline:

Boston: +213
NYY: -6,966

Det: -8,581
SOX: -2,477
Minn: +2,315

LAAAA: 342
Texas: +2,401




Phil: +2,834
Fla: +3,020

StL: -1,670
Milw: +2,468
cubs: -485

LAD: -1,839

The St. Louis and LAD numbers are particularly glaring, since they both had good offseasons and have led their respective divisions virtually the entire season thus far.

It just seems to me that the down attendance figures have a lot more to do with other factors besides KW letting Crede go and trading Swisher and Vazquez, Ozzie platooning Wise with Anderson, and the slow start of the team.

voodoochile
07-08-2009, 04:35 PM
The Cubs losing 485 per game is them losing 485 Standing room folks. Every seat has a person on it.

The Dodgers? I think Manny being out has played a factor? Maybe. But still, that's a team that's AVG over 40K. Losing 1800 is not a big deal.

Us losing 2500 from 28K ..... that's a big deal. It's a higher %.

And again, it's not about what the Sox are averaging now which isn't that far off the numbers from last year, it's about how much attendance they are generating currently as opposed to same time last year.

Many businesses track sales based on increase/decrease for same day last year. The Sox averaged close to 35K all summer long last year. Right now they aren't coming close to matching those numbers since June first. That's why it's a bigger issue. Unless ticket sales dramatically improve over the final 3 months of the season, the budget won't be as big as it was last year nor will there be as much money to spend at the deadline (last year there wasn't anyway because the payroll was already so high).

The Sox have always been a team that makes the bulk of their money in the summer months between school sessions when the weather is nice. If they have a bad summer attendancewise, it's not going to lead to much money being spent. Fortunately they have so much coming off the books this offseason that they should be able to spend then anyway.

RedHeadPaleHoser
07-08-2009, 04:38 PM
Not that my attendance is keeping the Sox payroll over $100M, but when we laid off 50 people at work and wages were frozen, and my wife was RIF'ed, I canceled my plans to attend 10 games (at 4 tix per) strictly based on needing to cover my regular household expenses.

I think there's a balanced MIX of "meh" from fans based on zero offseason moves as well as the economy. That said, if KW wants to lay the blame at my feet, then fine. Get your infield set, get and STAY in 1st place and I'll sell a kidney to get the ticket $.

It's Dankerific
07-08-2009, 04:40 PM
Fortunately they have so much coming off the books this offseason that they should be able to spend then anyway.

I hope thats true and we're not in for another offseason of excuses.

Anyone know if there is a hard and fast rule for MLB for how many games close to 1st place they have to be to sell playoff tickets? I'm sure they'll try to get ST holders renewed that way, again.

russ99
07-08-2009, 04:43 PM
Boy, this sounds a lot like the "smart and savvy" fans who, going into 2005 were up in arms about the Sox starting the year with a Japanese 2B,
an injury risk at RF, and that guy we traded El Caballo for in LF.

I can't even begin to tell you the worlds of difference between the 04-05 offseason and this one...

Kenny was very busy that offseason, and even when he thought he had some pieces in place (remember Dye and Hermanson signed as FA's), he still added A.J. and Iguchi.

This offseason I can only compare to June through October 2007 for the long stretches of inactivity by Kenny other than dealing away another salary.

Soxfest
07-08-2009, 04:47 PM
KW does NOT mention Sox were only 1 of 10 teams that raised ticket prices in 2009 and 11% to boot and that does not include the parking that is now $23.00. I knew he would find a way to use the attendance as an excuse for himself. Attendance may be down but with ticket price increase for 2009 the money is still there especially with the premium seat BS, that is why the Dodger series drew only 20,000 a game. I grow tired of KW crying poor over and over! :angry:

Dibbs
07-08-2009, 04:51 PM
If you really think that is true, than you are just blind to what is going on around you.

I will be willing to bet that if we pick someone up and make a run at this division, attendance will go up. If we sell and have no shot at the division, attendance will go down. I know the economy is bad, but this has more to do with the team being bad (for most of the first half) in my personal opinion. There are plenty of people in Chicago not struggling with money.

LoveYourSuit
07-08-2009, 04:52 PM
And again, it's not about what the Sox are averaging now which isn't that far off the numbers from last year, it's about how much attendance they are generating currently as opposed to same time last year.

Many businesses track sales based on increase/decrease for same day last year. The Sox averaged close to 35K all summer long last year. Right now they aren't coming close to matching those numbers since June first. That's why it's a bigger issue. Unless ticket sales dramatically improve over the final 3 months of the season, the budget won't be as big as it was last year nor will there be as much money to spend at the deadline (last year there wasn't anyway because the payroll was already so high).

The Sox have always been a team that makes the bulk of their money in the summer months between school sessions when the weather is nice. If they have a bad summer attendancewise, it's not going to lead to much money being spent. Fortunately they have so much coming off the books this offseason that they should be able to spend then anyway.


That's the exactly the biggest key here and why everyone is alarmed. By evidence of the crowd last night, a non premier game, this looks like a bad pattern and the front office is taking note.

Only way to fix this is by winning, and winning big. Mediocre winning, like many here are willing to accept (crawling into a Division Title) will not be the cure to this problem. So the Sox need to kick ass here the 2nd half an not look back. Hanging around the .500 mark will keep 23K showing up on a 80 degree weeknight. This would not be good for the financial health of this team.

LoveYourSuit
07-08-2009, 04:56 PM
KW does NOT mention Sox were only 1 of 10 teams that raised ticket prices in 2009 and 11% to boot and that does not include the parking that is now $23.00. I knew he would find a way to use the attendance as an excuse for himself. Attendance may be down but with ticket price increase for 2009 the money is still there especially with the premium seat BS, that is why the Dodger series drew only 20,000 a game. I grow tired of KW crying poor over and over! :angry:


I have to agree here.

The ticket price increase was not called for. Especially under the economic circumstance of this country. Then the icing on the cake was having a very crappy offseason.

thedudeabides
07-08-2009, 05:05 PM
I will be willing to bet that if we pick someone up and make a run at this division, attendance will go up. If we sell and have no shot at the division, attendance will go down. I know the economy is bad, but this has more to do with the team being bad (for most of the first half) in my personal opinion. There are plenty of people in Chicago not struggling with money.

I'm sure it will go up, as they are playing better, but to say it has more to do with the offseason, and slow start, than the economy I will not buy.

Everyone I know has gone to less Sox games, citing cost and uncertainty, and if you have read through this thread, it's been nearly unanimous that everyone is going to less games because of the current economy. My company has cancelled all of their outings to Sox games this year, as have a whole bunch of clients I have talked to(I've been trying hard to get free tickets). The economic struggles are far reaching regarding business both large and small. I've talked to a handful of bar owners who have cancelled their yearly bus trips do to lack of interest, and fear of eating the tickets.

This is a problem all over baseball, and the Sox are just pricing themselves out of a lot of people and companies plans.

The early play hasn't helped, and the weather hasn't helped, but people are acting like the product on the field is the worst the Sox have put out there. Tickets sales from performance on the field generally lag. This problem is a little more far reaching than that.

Jim Shorts
07-08-2009, 05:12 PM
I'm sure it will go up, as they are playing better, but to say it has more to do with the offseason, and slow start, than the economy I will not buy.



but the whole point was Kenny citing fan support, or the lack of it, for the current state of things when he clearly did very little to alter the Tide and increased ticket pricing.

Unless it was a purposeful smokescreen by KW so he could work the back room with out media interference, then he should not have said what he did.

He makes this mistake about every other, every third year and it's gotten pretty damn tiresome.

thedudeabides
07-08-2009, 05:31 PM
but the whole point was Kenny citing fan support, or the lack of it, for the current state of things when he clearly did very little to alter the Tide and increased ticket pricing.

Unless it was a purposeful smokescreen by KW so he could work the back room with out media interference, then he should not have said what he did.

He makes this mistake about every other, every third year and it's gotten pretty damn tiresome.

I'm not arguing that at all. I don't think he should be commenting on it. I'm just disagreeing with people that are saying it was the offseason, or some bad early play that is the biggest factor in the attendence drop.

Dan H
07-08-2009, 05:37 PM
From 2005-08, the White Sox have drawn close to 10.5 million. That is the largest attendance number for any four year time spread in franchise history. KW has no right to beat the attendance drum.

I have one question for the Sox: Do they want to barely contend in a weak division or do they want to do something special? All I have to say is that you have to spend money to make it.

Jim Shorts
07-08-2009, 05:38 PM
I'm not arguing that at all. I don't think he should be commenting on it. I'm just disagreeing with people that are saying it was the offseason, or some bad early play that is the biggest factor in the attendence drop.

Clearly, it's a combination of All of the Above.

Has Kenny found Bartolo yet?

Lip Man 1
07-08-2009, 05:47 PM
Dan:

Hope the book is going well. Good comment.
----------------------------
Three things I think:

1. The economy is the #1 reason why this situation has come to the forefront

2. However I think what is the tipping point for fans choosing to go to A Sox game or not (as opposed to taking the family to movies for the next three months) is the fact that the Sox slashed payroll, raised ticket prices, did little in the off season and had a very slow start.

3. I guarantee you if the Sox were in 1st place and had a record say like the Dodgers or Red Sox, this 'attendance' comments from Kenny would have never been spoken. The fans would be there...in droves.

Lip

jabrch
07-08-2009, 05:57 PM
From 2005-08, the White Sox have drawn close to 10.5 million. That is the largest attendance number for any four year time spread in franchise history. KW has no right to beat the attendance drum.

I have one question for the Sox: Do they want to barely contend in a weak division or do they want to do something special? All I have to say is that you have to spend money to make it.

Hasn't payroll also been the largest in any four year time spread in franchise history as well?

jabrch
07-08-2009, 05:59 PM
3. I guarantee you if the Sox were in 1st place and had a record say like the Dodgers or Red Sox, this 'attendance' comments from Kenny would have never been spoken. The fans would be there...in droves.

So, to put words in your mouth (most likely unfairly) you are calling a large percentage of our fans bandwaggon jumping frontrunners?

That's unfortunate. I'm going to blame the economy. I think that has had a much larger impact than you are giving it credit/blame.

Domeshot17
07-08-2009, 06:09 PM
Kenny is also walking a very dangerous line here.

1) Going to war with the fans is a bad idea

2) If he is trying to push the idea that if the fans come, he will make a move, and he does nothing, people are going to turn on him and the team

3) I guess a lot of it too depends on the fan. I have gone to less games this year, some due to time, but its hard to spend money constantly (every year before this I have gone to 15-25 a year since 03 or 04 plus Soxfest) when the Sox are not doing their all to put out a winner. If you need a year of running out Colon or if you need a full season to see Richard is not a good starting pitcher, fine, but don't raise ticket prices 10% +. The Sox do not do much economically for the fan experience. Parking, Ticket Prices, Sox Fest, its all expensive.

Sox Fans have always seemed to pride ourselves on being the opposite of Cub Fans. Put a good product on the field, management does the best it can, we will show up. Half ass it, we won't. Now Kenny is crying about that. It is not that we ever stopped caring about the Sox or cheering them on, but we also don't accept losing.

doublem23
07-08-2009, 06:10 PM
Hasn't payroll also been the largest in any four year time spread in franchise history as well?

Don't bring up facts like that. The Sox are cheap! Bla! They charge a lot for their tickets! Bla!

LoveYourSuit
07-08-2009, 06:11 PM
So, to put words in your mouth (most likely unfairly) you are calling a large percentage of our fans bandwaggon jumping frontrunners?

That's unfortunate. I'm going to blame the economy. I think that has had a much larger impact than you are giving it credit/blame.


100% yes.


Look no further than the man running this country. I would love to pick his brain on White Sox trivia and stomp him cold :tongue:

Most of my Sox fan friends became die hard fans post 2005. These are guys my age who don't have a clue who the hell Ron Kittle is. Ran into Kittle at the ALDS last year shook hands with him and had a few words .... my buddy turned over to me and asks "does he work with you?" :o:

Lip Man 1
07-08-2009, 06:18 PM
Jab:

I wouldn't go to that extreme from a comment point of view.

I'm saying that fans who are making choices due to a limited entertainment budget be they 'die-hard' Sox fans or 'bandwagon jumpers' often use where the team is, as justification for going to a game or not.

And as I've stated in the past, I have no problems with bandwagon fans. None. I'd love for them to come by the half millions or millions.

More fans means more money to spend if you believe ownership.

Let em' all come, their money is just as green as someone who can name the starting lineup for the 1959 or 1964 White Sox and folks regardless of what they are categorized are more willing to come out (particularly in dicey weather) if the team is in first place or at least has a great record.

Lip

doublem23
07-08-2009, 06:20 PM
100% yes.


Look no further than the man running this country. I would love to pick his brain on White Sox trivia and stomp him cold :tongue:

Most of my Sox fan friends became die hard fans post 2005. These are guys my age who don't have a clue who the hell Ron Kittle is. Ran into Kittle at the ALDS last year shook hands with him and had a few words .... my buddy turned over to me and asks "does he work with you?" :o:

1 person's personal experience is not a definitive statement of truth. FWIW, most of my friends who are Sox fans are diehards who have been with the team since we were young. :shrug:

There are three groups of fans in Chicago; Cub fans, Sox fans, and bandwagon fans. They're probably all about roughly the same size. Bandwagon fans go to Wrigley for the atmosphere, because it's "the thing to do," bla bla bla. Bandwagon fans will come to Sox Park, but only if the team is winning. I'm positive if the Sox are in 1st place in September, butts will be in the stands.

jabrch
07-08-2009, 06:27 PM
I'm positive if the Sox are in 1st place in September, butts will be in the stands.

That's for sure.

I'm also fairly sure if we had the kind of economy we had in 2003, we'd have more butts in the stands. If we had better weather, we'd have more butts in the stands also. And yes, if we started the season playing .700 ball, we'd have more butts in the stands.

Lip is right. I'd take the bandwaggoners by the busload. Unfortunately, it takes a lot more to fill up our bandwaggon than for some other franchises. So either management has to spend money that they don't have line of sight to bring in, and hope that works, or keep their fingers crossed that they can get themselves into position (as they have so far) with what they have, to make a move at the deadline if something is priced right, when we are more sure if this team will be a player all the way to the end.

Just a few weeks ago we were 8 games out. It was a ? if we would be able to keep in contention, or if we'd fall back to 10+...and sell. Now, with a few games left to the break, and the team playing well, the odds of that are slim. I'm optimistic we will see another move to improve this club - it is in Kenny's DNA. It may not be Halladay - but that won't be because they won't spend the money - they were willing to committ to a lot more for Peavy who had some ? around him. If it doesn't happen, it will be more about giving up what the Jays will want for him.

Gavin
07-08-2009, 06:35 PM
Without further ado, I give you the weather of your 2009 Chicago White Sox home games (well, that day's weather anyway):
http://imgshack.info/images/dgbo1dsgpmgp9ql3b87n.png

Quentin08
07-08-2009, 06:38 PM
One of our home games this year (game 1 of a double header) was counted as 1 fan in attendance. That really brought our avg down. So instead of 41 home games, it should really be 40 home games. With 40 games, we should be closer to 27K.

The 3 main reasons our avg attendance is down is: 1. Lower season ticket sales 2. Lower advance ticket sales 3. Higher ticket prices

KW should blame the marketing dept... privately.. instead of blaming the fans. Another dick move by KW.

voodoochile
07-08-2009, 07:28 PM
One of our home games this year (game 1 of a double header) was counted as 1 fan in attendance. That really brought our avg down. So instead of 41 home games, it should really be 40 home games. With 40 games, we should be closer to 27K.

The 3 main reasons our avg attendance is down is: 1. Lower season ticket sales 2. Lower advance ticket sales 3. Higher ticket prices

KW should blame the marketing dept... privately.. instead of blaming the fans. Another dick move by KW.

Please show me where in the actual article KW blames the fans.

I'm guessing you didn't actually read it and are just ripping on KW because it's the fashionable thing to do...

In fact this applies to all the people ripping on KW... Where in that article does he actively blame the fans?

It's put up or shut up time...

It's Dankerific
07-08-2009, 08:09 PM
Please show me where in the actual article KW blames the fans.

I'm guessing you didn't actually read it and are just ripping on KW because it's the fashionable thing to do...

In fact this applies to all the people ripping on KW... Where in that article does he actively blame the fans?

It's put up or shut up time...

What does "We expected a little more support than we've gotten" mean to you?

What does a parent mean when they say "We expected a little more effort/support than we've gotten"?

Perhaps, like a parent, he's not "angry" he's just "disappointed".

And, I guess, he feels like airing his disappointment publically.

SoxGirl4Life
07-08-2009, 08:11 PM
Looks like a good crowd tonight, from what I can see.

voodoochile
07-08-2009, 08:37 PM
What does "We expected a little more support than we've gotten" mean to you?

What does a parent mean when they say "We expected a little more effort/support than we've gotten"?

Perhaps, like a parent, he's not "angry" he's just "disappointed".

And, I guess, he feels like airing his disappointment publically.

Finish rhe quote...

"I think it's a reflection upon the economy of what's kind of happen with regards to attendance and I don't know if we've played consistent enough, or been exciting enough for people to get behind us. We're still hopeful."

He blames the economy and the Sox for their predictions (expectations) falling short

It's Dankerific
07-08-2009, 08:44 PM
Finish rhe quote...

"I think it's a reflection upon the economy of what's kind of happen with regards to attendance and I don't know if we've played consistent enough, or been exciting enough for people to get behind us. We're still hopeful."

He blames the economy and the Sox for their predictions (expectations) falling short

Even in context, in my opinion, its the same thing. It no different than

"I don't know, maybe I've gained some weight"

or

"I don't know, maybe I'm losing some hair".

All meant for the requisite pity response.

LITTLE NELL
07-08-2009, 08:49 PM
Another thing to consider is who your opponents are, just think if the Sox were in the AL East, the Yankees and Red Sox would each be coming in for 3 series, 9 or 10 games each. Figure 39K a game and thats 741k for 19 games. The Royals and Indians are not going to bring in those kinds of crowds.

Tragg
07-08-2009, 08:50 PM
Another thing to consider is who your opponents are, just think if the Sox were in the AL East, the Yankees and Red Sox would each be coming in for 3 series, 9 or 10 games each. Figure 39K a game and thats 741k for 19 games. The Royals and Indians are not going to bring in those kinds of crowds.
On the other hand, what would our record look like?

I don't see how Williams can say that the Sox have performed "below expectations". Under no objective analysis could this collection of talent be deemed any more than an 85 or so win team coming into this year - and that was optimistic. 3 above and 2 back at c. halfway point isn't below expectations much, if at all.

russ99
07-08-2009, 09:09 PM
If you want your voice heard on these matters about ticket prices/payroll, etc., take the Sox fan survey, up until the Sox-Indians game is over tonight. Here's the link (http://chicago.whitesox.mlb.com/cws/fan_forum/survey.jsp). An autographed Alexei jersey raffle is up for grabs as a raffle prize for those taking the survey.

This is a TV viewers survey, announced by Steve on the air, but I wonder if the Sox may have heard the fan backlash from Kenny's statement yesterday, and want to collect further data from the fans.

I put in my 2 cents.

kitekrazy
07-08-2009, 09:33 PM
1) according to ESPN and FOX Manny is God. Prior to his suspension, you would have expected a pretty big pre-sale in March/April for these games. Sort of what happens to Red Sox and Yankees.

2) Dodgers are a big market team

3) Dodgers 6th in MLB Road attendance, and this with the Manny Circus being out for 2 months.

4) Dodger holding the best record in baseball

That really wouldn't persuade me to go.

thedudeabides
07-08-2009, 09:40 PM
If you want your voice heard on these matters about ticket prices/payroll, etc., take the Sox fan survey, up until the Sox-Indians game is over tonight. Here's the link (http://chicago.whitesox.mlb.com/cws/fan_forum/survey.jsp). An autographed Alexei jersey raffle is up for grabs as a raffle prize for those taking the survey.

This is a TV viewers survey, announced by Steve on the air, but I wonder if the Sox may have heard the fan backlash from Kenny's statement yesterday, and want to collect further data from the fans.

I put in my 2 cents.

Thanks for the link. I think it's a good idea we all share our thoughts and concerns from this thread. The Sox are usually pretty good listeners.

dickallen15
07-08-2009, 10:33 PM
So, to put words in your mouth (most likely unfairly) you are calling a large percentage of our fans bandwaggon jumping frontrunners?

That's unfortunate. I'm going to blame the economy. I think that has had a much larger impact than you are giving it credit/blame.

The economy definitely has a huge bearing on attendance, if anything if a family is going to spend $250 on entertainment these days, they want to be entertained. For a long while this year the weather and the White Sox play made that a longshot most nights.

This different pricing for different teams almost makes me believe the White Sox think the opposition is more of a determining factor for whether or not someone wants to go to a game than the current state of the White Sox.

doublem23
07-08-2009, 10:37 PM
This different pricing for different teams almost makes me believe the White Sox think the opposition is more of a determining factor for whether or not someone wants to go to a game than the current state of the White Sox.

:rolleyes:

Just about every team has multiple price plans based on opponent; probably some people have noticed certain teams travel better than others. Even at premium pricing, the Cubs series easily sold out. Why the hell wouldn't they charge more?

Lip Man 1
07-08-2009, 11:33 PM
Just heard from a season ticket holder who says he got a call "out of the blue" today from his ticket rep asking if he was having a good experience this season and if he needs anything to be sure to let him know.

This person found that last comment odd because he said they have already exchanged e-mails a few times this year.

Could this have something to do with that fan survey or are the Sox in a damage control mode?

Has anybody else had this happen to them today?

Lip

Brian26
07-08-2009, 11:40 PM
Could this have something to do with that fan survey or are the Sox in a damage control mode?

Lip

Damage control mode for what?

What damage was done?

LoveYourSuit
07-08-2009, 11:43 PM
Damage control mode for what?

What damage was done?


A 16 page thread at WSI :shrug:

Jim Shorts
07-08-2009, 11:46 PM
Finish rhe quote...

"I think it's a reflection upon the economy of what's kind of happen with regards to attendance and I don't know if we've played consistent enough, or been exciting enough for people to get behind us. We're still hopeful."

He blames the economy and the Sox for their predictions (expectations) falling short

To me, that is clearly KW trying to soften the blow of his mistake. He's done this before and paid for it, and he realized he did it again and began the spin.

It's Kenny talking out of both sides of his mouth.

How you don't see this, I'm not sure.

Brian26
07-08-2009, 11:47 PM
A 16 page thread at WSI :shrug:

Oh, I'll have to look into that. I hardly ever spend any time on that website. :rolleyes:

Jim Shorts
07-08-2009, 11:50 PM
Just heard from a season ticket holder who says he got a call "out of the blue" today from his ticket rep asking if he was having a good experience this season and if he needs anything to be sure to let him know.

This person found that last comment odd because he said they have already exchanged e-mails a few times this year.

Could this have something to do with that fan survey or are the Sox in a damage control mode?

Has anybody else had this happen to them today?

Lip

I don't think it's damage control as much as trying to take the temperature of your clients. I think the Dodger series really took them back and now they feel a bit out of touch with their customers.

Plus, Kenny's little pepper today could use a little seasoning

Brian26
07-08-2009, 11:50 PM
Finish rhe quote...

"I think it's a reflection upon the economy of what's kind of happen with regards to attendance and I don't know if we've played consistent enough, or been exciting enough for people to get behind us. We're still hopeful."

He blames the economy and the Sox for their predictions (expectations) falling short

It's amazing how one quote has been clipped, completely taken out of context, bastardized, and run into the ground. The quote, in its entirety, does not warrant any "damage control." It's only the bastardized version that's being slung around now that looks insensitive.

voodoochile
07-08-2009, 11:57 PM
To me, that is clearly KW trying to soften the blow of his mistake. He's done this before and paid for it, and he realized he did it again and began the spin.

It's Kenny talking out of both sides of his mouth.

How you don't see this, I'm not sure.

What would it matter, KW could say the sky is blue and there would be people here who would rip him a new ******* for it.

Believe what you want to. It makes me no nevermind...

rdivaldi
07-09-2009, 12:06 AM
It's amazing how one quote has been clipped, completely taken out of context, bastardized, and run into the ground. The quote, in its entirety, does not warrant any "damage control." It's only the bastardized version that's being slung around now that looks insensitive.

I agree, this entire thing has been twisted into something it was not intended to be. It's been a complete joke imo.

drewcifer
07-09-2009, 12:06 AM
So 16 pages of threads, and the Dodgers series is still being brought up.

People didn't show up to pay for premium prices in-week, team has been meh or worse, and we won that series.... against the best team then (and now) in baseball.

I think it's pretty clear that fans didn't see it as a "premium" series of games. So can we stop bringing it up?

If there is a plan per opponent ideology here and it involves a NL West team, it's ****ing stupid and should be abandoned immediately.

voodoochile
07-09-2009, 12:30 AM
So 16 pages of threads, and the Dodgers series is still being brought up.

People didn't show up to pay for premium prices in-week, team has been meh or worse, and we won that series.... against the best team then (and now) in baseball.

I think it's pretty clear that fans didn't see it as a "premium" series of games. So can we stop bringing it up?

If there is a plan per opponent ideology here and it involves a NL West team, it's ****ing stupid and should be abandoned immediately.

Several quotes from Sox execs seem to imply that will be the case including ones from KW in the article in the first post of this thread.

EuroSox35
07-09-2009, 12:40 AM
I don't know why people are defending Kenny here, "We expected a little more support than we've gotten", no context is needed there. No front office employee is going to come out and say 'our fans suck', so to say something like that is big, and media outlets pounced on it as should've been expected. Basically Kenny puts his foot in his mouth again. I am a big fan of Kenny the GM, but he had a bad offseason. Was he handcuffed from above? Maybe, but there were still deals out there that didn't need that much creativity.

And honestly, there are too many times where the Sox jerk the fans around. We shouldn't have to get mad, pray, and hope for a miracle for our team to bring back a guy like Mark Buehrle. And he would've been gone a couple years ago if it wasn't for Mark who gave in at the last second. We shouldn't have to do the same for Konerko after 05 (It also did happen with Garland, Ordonez, etc. What hope should I have for Quentin, Danks, Floyd, Ramirez, etc in their prime? Hope they take a discount?). We shouldn't have to avoid good players because of their agent. My message to the front office: It works both ways

I already gave a lot of reasons earlier in the thread why the Sox were foolish in how they forecasted attendance. I don't want to repeat a long post, but let's face it, they priced this season as if we won the pennant AND the economy was in average-good shape. If I want to pick up 1 bleacher seat to tomorrow's 1pm game against the terrible Indians it will be %2437, but really %2440+ since I want the simple convenience of buying my seats online (when it's likely to be another half empty stadium), that's terrible

And on a similar note, I've always wondered why more teams don't do this. After the game's started, maybe at a certain point like the 3rd or 5th inning, why not discount the seats at the box office? Collect on the possible concessions and maybe parking. Maybe Joe Schmo can't get off work at 1 PM tomorrow, but can to the game at 3 PM, is really going to pay close to %2440 just for a bleacher seat for a portion of a game?

EuroSox35
07-09-2009, 12:42 AM
^Not sure why my price amounts got messed up, the prices I meant are thirty-seven dollars and over forty with TM fees.

Also, one more thing I remembered, Didn't the Giants or someone try something with dynamic pricing changing with demand? Anyone follow it? Curious to see how that's working for them

voodoochile
07-09-2009, 12:47 AM
^Not sure why my price amounts got messed up, the prices I meant are thirty-seven dollars and over forty with TM fees.

Also, one more thing I remembered, Didn't the Giants or someone try something with dynamic pricing changing with demand? Anyone follow it? Curious to see how that's working for them

That may be coming, but you risk pissing off your season ticket holders if you start selling a bunch of seats for a lot cheaper than they paid.

BTW, you can edit your own post by clicking the edit button right beside the quote button in the lower right hand corner.

ode to veeck
07-09-2009, 12:48 AM
:rolleyes:

Just about every team has multiple price plans based on opponent; probably some people have noticed certain teams travel better than others. Even at premium pricing, the Cubs series easily sold out. Why the hell wouldn't they charge more?


not at all true, some do and many don't (across MLB); I refuse to pay the premiums for anything short of playoffs

drewcifer
07-09-2009, 12:49 AM
Several quotes from Sox execs seem to imply that will be the case including ones from KW in the article in the first post of this thread.

No, there's one ambiguous quote, where KW is talking about the Dodger series being an "eye opener" (yeah, no ****).

Otherwise, we suck supporting the team and he can't find Colon.

drewcifer
07-09-2009, 12:57 AM
not at all true, some do and many don't (across MLB); I refuse to pay the premiums for anything short of playoffs

Yes, or meaningless interleague for that matter. We did better in interleague play than anyone in our division, and we...well, sucked this first half at only 4 games over .500. Nobody cares about that team based pricing ****. Sox fans know what games matter and no game against the Dodgers is worth our extra $ unless its the World Series.

Build the team that wins, get the $ from the fans. Lord knows we have the payroll and have for a few years now.

jabrch
07-09-2009, 12:59 AM
I don't know why people are defending Kenny here, "We expected a little more support than we've gotten", no context is needed there.

If you are unwilling to finish the entire quote, then obviously you think that is important to take it out of context to prove your point.

No front office employee is going to come out and say 'our fans suck',

AND WILLIAMS DID NOT SAY THAT.

so to say something like that is big, and media outlets pounced on it as should've been expected.

To be clear, Kenny said, "Well, if I'm being completely honest money is more of the issue now. We expected a little more support than we've gotten," he said. "I think it's a reflection upon the economy of what's kind of happen with regards to attendance and I don't know if we've played consistent enough, or been exciting enough for people to get behind us. We're still hopeful."

To me, it appears clear that he used the word support to mean attendance. That is clear. And then he said the reason for it is 1) the economy, 2) Inconsistent play and 3) Lack of excitement. He didn't blame the fans for anything. It is lazy to take half of his quote, apply it in some alternative universe and spin it to be "Our fans suck"

Basically Kenny puts his foot in his mouth again.

Only if you don't read what he said in its entirety.

I am a big fan of Kenny the GM, but he had a bad offseason.

Yet miraculously, his team is right there in contention, he cut his payroll to a level where the team is at very little risk of being in trouble if the economy gets worse, and he strengthened the farm system a TON. I'm not sure it is as terrible as you are painting it.

Was he handcuffed from above? Maybe, but there were still deals out there that didn't need that much creativity.

All teams have budgets. Where were these great deals that he missed that didn't need creativity? I'm missing them...I can tell you about some of the deals I'm glad he passed up on that he got roasted here for not doing.

And honestly, there are too many times where the Sox jerk the fans around.

That's bull****.

We shouldn't have to get mad, pray, and hope for a miracle for our team to bring back a guy like Mark Buehrle. And he would've been gone a couple years ago if it wasn't for Mark who gave in at the last second. We shouldn't have to do the same for Konerko after 05 (It also did happen with Garland, Ordonez, etc. What hope should I have for Quentin, Danks, Floyd, Ramirez, etc in their prime? Hope they take a discount?).

Has nothing to do with praying or miracles. That's such a naive viewpoint. Players always have their options. Teams have the options as to how to spend money. If you think throwing money at people regardless of their value so that fans feel good is the right way to run a team, I'm glad you aren't running my team. How do you think the Jays fans feel about the 35mm+ per year for the next 5 years they owe Rios + Wells. Add in the 15mm they are going to pay Ryan. Ya think they are glad ownership caved into assinine demands? How do you think the Giants fans feel about Barry Zito's deal? Not so hot...


We shouldn't have to avoid good players because of their agent.

We avoid them due to their contract demands. I don't have a problem not giving a HS kid 10mm guaranteed. Let me know how you think teams feel after shelling out several million to a 17 year old - only to see him fizzle out in 3 years.

And on a similar note, I've always wondered why more teams don't do this. After the game's started, maybe at a certain point like the 3rd or 5th inning, why not discount the seats at the box office? Collect on the possible concessions and maybe parking. Maybe Joe Schmo can't get off work at 1 PM tomorrow, but can to the game at 3 PM, is really going to pay close to %2440 just for a bleacher seat for a portion of a game?

Because it would likely cannibalize their sales more than it would add value.

doublem23
07-09-2009, 01:07 AM
not at all true, some do and many don't (across MLB); I refuse to pay the premiums for anything short of playoffs

Then don't, that's the point of the premium priced tickets, the majority of the games are still very reasonably priced for most fans.

Despite this "uproar" over premium priced games, they're always among the most well-attended games of the season. Obviously the Dodgers series was a mistake on the front office's part, but otherwise premium priced games generally draw huge crowds to the Cell. To be honest, the Sox would be doing all their fans a disservice by not charging more for those games. More money = more revenue = maybe one day KW will finally have that whole dollar. Then you better watch out.

drewcifer
07-09-2009, 01:14 AM
Then don't, that's the point of the premium priced tickets, the majority of the games are still very reasonably priced for most fans.

Despite this "uproar" over premium priced games, they're always among the most well-attended games of the season. To be honest, the Sox would be doing all their fans a disservice by not charging more for those games. More money = more revenue = maybe one day KW will finally have that whole dollar. Then you better watch out.

:rolleyes:

The freakin' GM is saying that those games were an "eye opener"!

They are NOT getting more money because people are turned off by the increase. Supply, demand. Best conditions are when price is set there.

When you have high prices (i.e - Dodger games nobody gives a turd about) and 25K seats sold, you are ****ing up.

Sure $5 profit of every ticket is nice, but if you jack prices to where you get $0 when you factor empty seats, well - a price that nets $2 or $3 is better, isn't it?

There is no MORE MONEY= MORE REVENUE when you operate like that.

That is basic, simple economics and we all saw it and it's why KW talked about it. Like someone ealier said, if you don't see it, you are lost.

doublem23
07-09-2009, 01:19 AM
:rolleyes:

The freakin' GM is saying that those games were an "eye opener"!

They are NOT getting more money because people are turned off by the increase. Supply, demand. Best conditions are when price meets.

When you have high prices (i.e - Dodger games nobody gives a turd about) and 25K seats sold, you are ****ing up.

Sure $5 profit of every ticket is nice, but if you jack prices to where you get $0, well - a price of that nets $2 or $3 is better, isn't it?

There is no MORE MONEY= MORE REVENUE when you operate like that.

That is basic, simple economics and we all saw it and it's why KW talked about it. Like someone ealier said, if you don't see it, you are lost.

I already edited my original post, but this Dodgers series was the first premium priced series I can remember in a long, long time that wasn't a huge draw. The Cubs series and Opening Day were all premium priced tickets, too, and they were all sell-outs.

Just a quick check of Ticketmaster for the other premium priced games and some of them are already putting me in the Upper Deck. 2 Best available for the Saturday game against the Yankees on Aug. 1 yielded Sect. 556. I'm sure the Sox are holding back some tickets, but other series, even closer in date still have tickets available in the Lower Bowl.

If you don't like premium priced games and think it's the greatest injustice every bestowed upon mankind, then simply don't go to those games. This year there are what, 12 premium games? That leaves another 69 home games to chose from. The Red Sox, Yankees, Cubs, and Opening Day have always drawn big crowds. More demand = higher prices. That is Econ. 101, if you don't see it then, you are lost.

LoveYourSuit
07-09-2009, 01:30 AM
AND WILLIAMS DID NOT SAY THAT.



To be clear, Kenny said, "Well, if I'm being completely honest money is more of the issue now. We expected a little more support than we've gotten," he said. "I think it's a reflection upon the economy of what's kind of happen with regards to attendance and I don't know if we've played consistent enough, or been exciting enough for people to get behind us. We're still hopeful.".

A smart Stanford Exec would have omited that statement unless he was looking to take a jab at someone.

We expected a little more support than we've gotten.... so yeah, he expected people to buy into crappy baseball in April and May with crappy weather and add the insult of rising ticket pricing to go along with no offseson activity to improve the club. All this despite a weak economy as he points out right after.

So what, he expects Sox fans to be Cub fans now where we just show up to the ballpark just to watch a Circus Act :scratch: Sox fans are better than that. I hope this goes to show Kenny and JR that things don't change in the southside. We demand a good product and a winner. The '06 and '07 attendance honeymoon is over.

Time to win boys. That's the only way to cure this mess.