PDA

View Full Version : Brandon Allen for Tony Pena (reliever) from the Diamond Backs


SoxGirl4Life
07-07-2009, 08:04 PM
According to the Ranger.

Frater Perdurabo
07-07-2009, 08:05 PM
Ummm, OK.

Evman5
07-07-2009, 08:05 PM
Is Pena taking Gobble's spot in the pen?

gogosox16
07-07-2009, 08:06 PM
I thouhgt people were thinking he could possibly be the first basemen of the future?

Frater Perdurabo
07-07-2009, 08:07 PM
Pena's stats page (http://arizona.diamondbacks.mlb.com/team/player.jsp?player_id=430963).

We might have been over-valuing Allen as a prospect (wouldn't be the first time), but I'm completely underwhelmed by this acquisition.

Evman5
07-07-2009, 08:07 PM
I thouhgt people were thinking he could possibly be the first basemen of the future?


He still might be.....just not in our team's future

Pena:


W-L 5-3
ERA 4.24
K 26
Walks 11
Saves 1

BainesHOF
07-07-2009, 08:08 PM
To me, it's a good sign that we're playing to win this year.

I like that Kenny Williams sought to bolster the bullpen even though it's a strength of the team. I'm all for improving however we can do it.

35th and Shields
07-07-2009, 08:10 PM
Why?

DSpivack
07-07-2009, 08:10 PM
:scratch:

DirtySox
07-07-2009, 08:11 PM
Odd.

Domeshot17
07-07-2009, 08:12 PM
I get it, but I don't get it, He has some electric stuff, but with all our holes, adding another RP helps, but wasn't huge.

I wonder if this is a precursor to a trade involving Poreda, filling out the bullpen before we create a hole. This is one of those moves that just smells like the start of something bigger

DirtySox
07-07-2009, 08:12 PM
I wonder if this is a precursor to a trade involving Poreda, filling out the bullpen before we create a hole. This is one of those moves that just smells like the start of something bigger

Was thinking the same thing.

The Immigrant
07-07-2009, 08:13 PM
I wonder if this is a precursor to a trade involving Poreda, filling out the bullpen before we create a hole. This is one of those moves that just smells like the start of something bigger

It's probably just a precursor to Dotel signing with someone else at the end of the year.

CWSpalehoseCWS
07-07-2009, 08:14 PM
Wow, kind of surprised. I liked Allen alot. Seemed like he would be pretty decent for us in the future as Paulie's replacement. I would think that we could have gotten something a little bit more for him with him being one of the better prospects. Either way I got faith in KW, he doesn't regularly make mistakes when it comes to trading these type of guys.

infohawk
07-07-2009, 08:15 PM
Pena might be one of those pitchers that Coop has told KW to get if he ever had the chance.

Ranger
07-07-2009, 08:15 PM
There is a thought he can be a premier setup-type. If he can, the team could always use that. Especially if they are concerned with potential injuries (Jenks, Linebrink, for example). We'll see.

Frater Perdurabo
07-07-2009, 08:17 PM
There is a thought he can be a premier setup-type. If he can, the team could always use that. Especially if they are concerned with potential injuries (Jenks, Linebrink, for example). We'll see.

Kind of like a Thornton/Linebrink-quality guy? I guess that's OK.

Lorenzo Barcelo
07-07-2009, 08:18 PM
I'd rather have Jesus Pena. Upper management must have saw something they did not like to give up on him already.

CWSpalehoseCWS
07-07-2009, 08:19 PM
I get it, but I don't get it, He has some electric stuff, but with all our holes, adding another RP helps, but wasn't huge.

I wonder if this is a precursor to a trade involving Poreda, filling out the bullpen before we create a hole. This is one of those moves that just smells like the start of something bigger

http://janeheller.mlblogs.com/halladay.jpg

I realize that's a pipedream. Just figured I'd throw it out there. It does seem kindof like an unneccesary move right now, unless something else is in the works. Personally it think it might be in case Dotel is traded/let go after the season or Linebrink breaks down. He's alot better than Gobble is, that's for sure.

illini81887
07-07-2009, 08:20 PM
He is cheap but is a FA at end of the year

JB98
07-07-2009, 08:21 PM
:scratch:

The Sox are pretty strong in right-handed relief, but they lack young left-handed bats.

They are trading a young left-handed bat for right-handed relief?

Ranger
07-07-2009, 08:22 PM
Kind of like a Thornton/Linebrink-quality guy? I guess that's OK.


Well, obviously if that happens, that would be terrific. Again, this may mean they are worried about injuries to that pen. And they also apparently think Pena can be pretty good.

I guess I'm surprised they traded Allen, but then again, who knows? He may never turn out to be anything and it doesn't concern me that Kenny is willing to trade him. There haven't been a whole lot of prospects he's traded that have turned into much.

Frater Perdurabo
07-07-2009, 08:23 PM
:scratch:

The Sox are pretty strong in right-handed relief, but they lack young left-handed bats.

They are trading a young left-handed bat for right-handed relief?

I guess that's the part that left me :scratch: too.

The Immigrant
07-07-2009, 08:24 PM
He is cheap but is a FA at end of the year

He is arbitration eligible for three more years, meaning that the Sox will control him through 2012.

illini81887
07-07-2009, 08:25 PM
He is arbitration eligible for three more years, meaning that the Sox will control him through 2012.
Oh ok, thats good.

doublem23
07-07-2009, 08:25 PM
I wonder if this is a precursor to a trade involving Poreda, filling out the bullpen before we create a hole. This is one of those moves that just smells like the start of something bigger

That was my first reaction, too, although you never know... Coop and his projects?

Brian26
07-07-2009, 08:26 PM
Kenny sure does like making deals with Arizona.

KRS1
07-07-2009, 08:27 PM
SERIOUSLY!? I mean, Tony's stuff is absolutely electric when he finds the zone, but I would think Brandon's value went quite a bit higher than a RP with minimal success (one good season) in the bigs.

The Immigrant
07-07-2009, 08:27 PM
Don't call him Antonio: http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/news/story?id=1803614

When he was a prospect in AA, he played under his nephew's name (Antonio Rosario).

JB98
07-07-2009, 08:28 PM
I guess that's the part that left me :scratch: too.

It's not necessarily a bad move. It's just really unexpected and weird.

KRS1
07-07-2009, 08:29 PM
Don't call him Antonio: http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/news/story?id=1803614

When he was a prospect in AA, he played under his nephew's name (Antonio Rosario).

Yeah, he was the one who got busted for the age shaving thing under an assumed identity a few years back.

arKnaD7
07-07-2009, 08:29 PM
The last time we traded a minor league first baseman to Arizona it worked out well....

illini81887
07-07-2009, 08:29 PM
Kenny sure does like making deals with Arizona.
Hopefully he rips them off here again

BadBobbyJenks
07-07-2009, 08:29 PM
I am a huge Tony Pena fan, he has ridiculous stuff, but I figured Allen would be a piece of a bigger deal.

balke
07-07-2009, 08:30 PM
I get it, but I don't get it, He has some electric stuff, but with all our holes, adding another RP helps, but wasn't huge.

I wonder if this is a precursor to a trade involving Poreda, filling out the bullpen before we create a hole. This is one of those moves that just smells like the start of something bigger


I think it opens the door for a variety of things. The most likely for the Sox is departing with dotel. Might not be for much more than a utility player either.

KRS1
07-07-2009, 08:32 PM
The most likely for the Sox is departing with dotel.

Beat me to it. At leats that's what I'm hoping. It would be great if we could swing Dotel for something of value, but it could just be in preperation for losing him this offseason.

soltrain21
07-07-2009, 08:35 PM
Does this mean the Sox think Phegley is the catcher of the future and Flowers is an eventual first baseman?

GregO23
07-07-2009, 08:36 PM
Does this mean the Sox think Phegley is the catcher of the future and Flowers is an eventual first baseman?
Or you could move Dayan Viciedo to 1B.

wulfy
07-07-2009, 08:38 PM
How old is Pena (really)?

Chez
07-07-2009, 08:38 PM
Or you could move Dayan Viciedo to 1B.
Beat me to it. That's what I'm thinking. Either Viciedo or Flowers moves to 1B.

sox1970
07-07-2009, 08:41 PM
I don't think Viciedo will move to first. He's got too much of a gun to waste there. If he doesn't improve at 3B, I think he'll move to a corner OF spot. Flowers? Yeah, I can see that with the Phegley kid just drafted in the sandwich round.

Frater Perdurabo
07-07-2009, 08:42 PM
Beat me to it. That's what I'm thinking. Either Viciedo or Flowers moves to 1B.

So we keep the slow right-handed power guys, but deal the one left-handed power guy who also can steal bases.

KRS1
07-07-2009, 08:42 PM
How old is Pena (really)?

27 for sure. There was a pretty deep investigation into all his records after the scandal.

SoxNation05
07-07-2009, 08:42 PM
I think this has to do with the fact that we have locks at 3B and SS. Chris Getz is presumably a lock at second as well. I think they're moving Flowers and/or Viciedo to play first.

Viciedo has a higher ceiling and isn't MLB ready like Allen was close to being.

Flowers is MLB ready but is an absolute butcher behind the plate.

sullythered
07-07-2009, 08:43 PM
I know we probably see both Flowers and Viciedo as first basemen, but it seems like we gave up a lot for not much.

goon
07-07-2009, 08:45 PM
How old is Pena (really)?

27. Pena has outrageous stuff. I don't know if Allen was overhyped by our fans, its seems like he has the ability to be a good everyday player.

If they trade Dotel, seems like a good trade.

JohnTucker0814
07-07-2009, 08:46 PM
I don't like this move... we seem to be trading away any power threat from the minors to Arizona... Chris Carter now Brandon Allen... I was really looking forward to seeing Brandon play 1B in the next few years. I'm kinda bummed by this trade, I feel like you can pick up a bullpen arm with less than Brandon.

DirtySox
07-07-2009, 08:47 PM
They aren't moving Flowers to first base. Viciedo is a possibility.

goon
07-07-2009, 08:47 PM
I don't like this move... we seem to be trading away any power threat from the minors to Arizona... Chris Carter now Brandon Allen... I was really looking forward to seeing Brandon play 1B in the next few years. I'm kinda bummed by this trade, I feel like you can pick up a bullpen arm with less than Brandon.

Chris Carter got flipped to the A's and remember, we got Carlos Quentin.

DSpivack
07-07-2009, 08:49 PM
Chris Carter got flipped to the A's and remember, we got Carlos Quentin.

That ended up a good move for teams all around. Sox got TCQ who seems to be a young slugger, Diamonbacks got a very good, young and cheap SP in Dan Haren, and the A's got some young talent, some of whom are performing at the MLB level now.

doublem23
07-07-2009, 08:51 PM
I don't like this move... we seem to be trading away any power threat from the minors to Arizona... Chris Carter now Brandon Allen... I was really looking forward to seeing Brandon play 1B in the next few years. I'm kinda bummed by this trade, I feel like you can pick up a bullpen arm with less than Brandon.

I don't know how much of a power threat Allen realistically would have ever developed into. He only had a career MiLB slugging percentage of .456.

Ranger
07-07-2009, 08:51 PM
I don't like this move... we seem to be trading away any power threat from the minors to Arizona... Chris Carter now Brandon Allen... I was really looking forward to seeing Brandon play 1B in the next few years. I'm kinda bummed by this trade, I feel like you can pick up a bullpen arm with less than Brandon.

Don't be so sure about that. Especially if the reliever has any sort of promise at all.

thomas35forever
07-07-2009, 08:54 PM
Based on those numbers alone, I'd rather him than Jimmy Gobble, who I'd like to see get demoted with this trade.

Shoeless
07-07-2009, 08:57 PM
They aren't moving Flowers to first base. Viciedo is a possibility.

If Flowers's power numbers are good, he could wind up at first base eventually. But honestly, the organization doesn't have a lot of catchers outside of Flowers.

I have to trust Kenny because the sentiment for Allen reminds me of the feelings towards Ryan Sweeney. Sweeney is okay, but I don't feel as though he was worth the hype.

Frater Perdurabo
07-07-2009, 08:57 PM
Based on those numbers alone, I'd rather him than Jimmy Gobble, who I'd like to see get demoted with this trade.

Well, somebody has to be moved off the 25-man roster to make room for Pena.

SoxNation05
07-07-2009, 08:58 PM
I know we probably see both Flowers and Viciedo as first basemen, but it seems like we gave up a lot for not much.
I know, prospects mean absolutely nothing, but a top 100 prospect for a 27 year old relief pitcher who can't get it together?

DSpivack
07-07-2009, 09:01 PM
I don't know how much of a power threat Allen realistically would have ever developed into. He only had a career MiLB slugging percentage of .456.

So Allen is comparable to a Casey Kotchman, James Loney, or a Conor Jackson?

tacosalbarojas
07-07-2009, 09:02 PM
I think this has to do with the fact that we have locks at 3B and SS. Chris Getz is presumably a lock at second as well. I think they're moving Flowers and/or Viciedo to play first.

Viciedo has a higher ceiling and isn't MLB ready like Allen was close to being.

Flowers is MLB ready but is an absolute butcher behind the plate.I also wonder if the Sox are worried that 71 won't last for the long haul and will need some down time as he did last season.

RowanDye
07-07-2009, 09:08 PM
The Twins and Tigers would probably like to have Pena. I don't have a problem with this move.

cburns
07-07-2009, 09:09 PM
I also wonder if the Sox are worried that 71 won't last for the long haul and will need some down time as he did last season.

I think that is a great point. Also, if the Sox get rid of Gobble, what move is to be made when Quentin returns? I don't think Poreda is going anywhere since he is our second lefty in the pen. If anything Poreda and Richard flip-flop. This smells like a precursor to Fields getting packaged in a trade.

thedudeabides
07-07-2009, 09:10 PM
So we keep the slow right-handed power guys, but deal the one left-handed power guy who also can steal bases.


But Viciedo and Flowers are much better prospects than Allen. I'm surprised Allen was moved, but I think he was a bit overrated around here.

Pena was going to be a pretty sought after bullpen arm this deadline. He has great stuff and is under control cheap for a while. Let's hope the Sox can get him to perform better than he has.

DSpivack
07-07-2009, 09:16 PM
I think that is a great point. Also, if the Sox get rid of Gobble, what move is to be made when Quentin returns? I don't think Poreda is going anywhere since he is our second lefty in the pen. If anything Poreda and Richard flip-flop. This smells like a precursor to Fields getting packaged in a trade.

Wise would be gone, I would think. No reason to carry 5 OFs.

Frater Perdurabo
07-07-2009, 09:19 PM
But Viciedo and Flowers are much better prospects than Allen. I'm surprised Allen was moved, but I think he was a bit overrated around here.

Pena was going to be a pretty sought after bullpen arm this deadline. He has great stuff and is under control cheap for a while. Let's hope the Sox can get him to perform better than he has.

I accept both explanations. It just would be nice if the Sox could develop a decent left-handed hitter. (Whether or not Allen would have been that guy remains to be seen; I accept that I may have overrated him.) It seems like Ventura was the last decent LH hitter the Sox developed.

Frater Perdurabo
07-07-2009, 09:20 PM
Wise would be gone, I would think. No reason to carry 5 OFs.

One would think.

Marqhead
07-07-2009, 09:30 PM
If this means less Linebrink then I'm happy.

No such thing as too much pitching, and from what I'm reading he's got great stuff when he's on.

JB98
07-07-2009, 09:35 PM
KW says no big deals are likely:

http://www.suntimes.com/sports/baseball/whitesox/1655735,white-sox-tony-pena-070709.article

cburns
07-07-2009, 09:35 PM
Wise would be gone, I would think. No reason to carry 5 OFs.

So then the Sox bench is: Anderson, Nix, Castro, Fields. With Anderson being the defensive replacement for Pods, Nix splitting time with Getz, and Fields pinch running for Paulie.

I think Wise would be logical choice to go when Q comes back, but I just don't know if that will happen.

Stoky44
07-07-2009, 09:40 PM
KW says no big deals are likely:

http://www.suntimes.com/sports/baseball/whitesox/1655735,white-sox-tony-pena-070709.article


Uh-oh KW might be banned from WSI, he is bringing up the "Atten..." word :o:

Craig Grebeck
07-07-2009, 09:51 PM
I'm okay with Pena -- especially if it means less Linebrink (as someone noted a few posts earlier). Pena will replace Dotel eventually, and I think this is a pretty strong indication that KW believes someone will have to move to 1B out of our current crop of prospects.

DirtySox
07-07-2009, 09:53 PM
Agreed. Pena sounds like he will be replacing Dotel after this year. Cheap and under control for a while. He has some good stuff, and has had some bad luck. Hopefully Coop can work some magic as well.

Domeshot17
07-07-2009, 09:54 PM
I don't really feel bad for the Sox or Kenny with attendance. You cut a ton of payroll AND raise ticket prices in a bad economy, you are not giong to draw. You want something that is going to bring fans, cut prices

A. Cavatica
07-07-2009, 09:56 PM
I don't like this trade. I don't know why we'd trade for a reliever at all, much less give up one of our fastest-rising prospects.

Tragg
07-07-2009, 09:58 PM
A top prospect seems a mighty high price for yet another mediocre career middle reliever. Mediocre ERA, bad WHIP, decent strike out rate.

I hope Williams is right that Brandon Allen is a dud....even so, I would think most top prospects bring more than middle relievers on bad NL teams.

Another trade with Arizona.

Frater Perdurabo
07-07-2009, 10:03 PM
I hope Williams is right that Brandon Allen is a dud....

I don't hope he's a dud, but I do hope this is an example of KW "selling high."

Noneck
07-07-2009, 10:03 PM
Maybe this deal shows that some of the top Sox prospects are not cant miss prospects and have just been over hyped by Sox management to their fans.

Frater Perdurabo
07-07-2009, 10:11 PM
Maybe this deal shows that some of the top Sox prospects are not cant miss prospects and have just been over hyped by Sox management to their fans.

Frankly I haven't read any Sox-generated prospect propaganda, but I have encountered heaps of extremism here on WSI! :tongue:

Noneck
07-07-2009, 10:21 PM
Frankly I haven't read any Sox-generated prospect propaganda, but I have encountered heaps of extremism here on WSI! :tongue:

Do you listen to Sox games on TV? Harrelson is always hawking how great the minor league system is, maybe that carries over to the people on this board. And he is a shill for management.

tm1119
07-07-2009, 10:21 PM
I think trading Allen may also signal that Beckham may be staying at 3b. If Beckham stays at 3B then that leaves Dayan to move over to 1b (which probably was going to have to happen anyway). We could see an infield of 3B: Beckham, SS: Alexei, 2B: Getz(or someone else?), 1B: Vicidieo.

stevemcstud
07-07-2009, 10:34 PM
:scratch:

The Sox are pretty strong in right-handed relief, but they lack young left-handed bats.

They are trading a young left-handed bat for right-handed relief?

We want MLB ready talent so we are going to trade Pena now for a speedy lefty prospect named Jerry Owens. :cool:

Frater Perdurabo
07-07-2009, 10:37 PM
Do you listen to Sox games on TV? Harrelson is always hawking how great the minor league system is, maybe that carries over to the people on this board. And he is a shill for management.

I don't get to watch many Sox games on TV. Living in Dallas, WGN is my only TV option, and even then I often miss parts of many WGN games due to other obligations.

russ99
07-07-2009, 10:37 PM
But Viciedo and Flowers are much better prospects than Allen. I'm surprised Allen was moved, but I think he was a bit overrated around here.

Pena was going to be a pretty sought after bullpen arm this deadline. He has great stuff and is under control cheap for a while. Let's hope the Sox can get him to perform better than he has.

I'm dismayed that Allen was moved for a reliever, but not surprised. That's Kenny's M.O.

I guess Flowers is the new 1B prospect, especially if our newly drafted catcher moves through the system at a decent pace.

russ99
07-07-2009, 10:40 PM
KW says no big deals are likely:

http://www.suntimes.com/sports/baseball/whitesox/1655735,white-sox-tony-pena-070709.article

Yeah right, I'll believe it when I see it. Just flying under the radar as usual...

DirtySox
07-07-2009, 10:43 PM
I'm dismayed that Allen was moved for a reliever, but not surprised. That's Kenny's M.O.

I guess Flowers is the new 1B prospect, especially if our newly drafted catcher moves through the system at a decent pace.

Phegley has the same questions about staying behind the plate. Flowers won't be moved off catcher until he shows he absolutely cannot do it, and that isn't the consensus yet. Supposedly his defense is improving.

DSpivack
07-07-2009, 11:08 PM
Phegley has the same questions about staying behind the plate. Flowers won't be moved off catcher until he shows he absolutely cannot do it, and that isn't the consensus yet. Supposedly his defense is improving.

I'm dismayed that Allen was moved for a reliever, but not surprised. That's Kenny's M.O.

I guess Flowers is the new 1B prospect, especially if our newly drafted catcher moves through the system at a decent pace.

I think trading Allen may also signal that Beckham may be staying at 3b. If Beckham stays at 3B then that leaves Dayan to move over to 1b (which probably was going to have to happen anyway). We could see an infield of 3B: Beckham, SS: Alexei, 2B: Getz(or someone else?), 1B: Vicidieo.

I think all that talk might be a bit premature. That assumes any of those prospects pan out. You don't make a trade like this assuming any of that.

I think KW rated Pena higher than Allen, and thus made this deal.

munchman33
07-07-2009, 11:14 PM
I'm dismayed that Allen was moved for a reliever, but not surprised. That's Kenny's M.O.

I guess Flowers is the new 1B prospect, especially if our newly drafted catcher moves through the system at a decent pace.

Flowers is actually a little better defensively and likely to stay at catcher, though Phegley will very likely never hit enough to play another position. Long term Phegley is probably more of semi-decent bat type backup. If Flowers is moved to another position, it isn't going to be because of someone like Phegley.

KyWhiSoxFan
07-07-2009, 11:17 PM
Who knows if Allen would have been able to crack the starting lineup in two years? Clearly, this means that Konerko is going nowhere while under his existing contract, so the Sox are set for next year at first as well. The Sox will worry about 1B two years from now.

As for this deal, I'm a big believer in pitching. I'll make pitching first priority every time. If Pena can help the team this year and beyond (Dotel is gone after this year with his salary), he is a much more valuable player for the Sox than Allen may ever have been. Plus, the Sox have some other young players who may--and may was also the operative word for Allen--be able to play first in 2011 or 2012.

Britt Burns
07-07-2009, 11:17 PM
Man, I've learned that doubting KW's trades is a bad move, but...wow...this doesn't make any sense to me.

PeoriaSoxFan
07-07-2009, 11:19 PM
This trade makes absolutley no sense. Allen was supposed to be one of the studs of the minor league system and on the fast track. We just traded him for a RH Middle Relief Pitcher with a 4+ ERA? I can live with getting rid of him, but for this? Also, KW doesn't have a history of making "precursor" trades.

doublem23
07-07-2009, 11:21 PM
This trade makes absolutley no sense. Allen was supposed to be one of the studs of the minor league system and on the fast track. .

This is already his 5th minor league season.

Mr. White Sox
07-07-2009, 11:22 PM
You don't usually trade a highly rated prospect for a reliever, and Allen was pretty highly rated. Here's one of the only ways this makes sense: Kenny sees Pena as a future closer, and will be trading Dotel and/or Jenks in the near future.

Pena's career has so far been defined by his massive upside and failure to reach that ceiling. This year and next will go a long way in determining his future as a major league player.

Sockinchisox
07-07-2009, 11:45 PM
Gobble DFA to make room.

http://twitter.com/InsideTheSox/status/2526567739

JermaineDye05
07-07-2009, 11:51 PM
My guess is Pena will be replacing Dotel and the Sox just hope Coop can work his magic with Pena. I wonder if this means that Viciedo or Flowers will be moved to first base? My gut says it will be Viciedo since 3rd base appears to be in the hands of Beckham.

DirtySox
07-07-2009, 11:53 PM
Flowers will not be moved off C. The Sox system has nothing else remotely close to an MLB ready catcher, and his time frame will be perfect to replace AJ. He is becoming adequate behind the plate, and the bat will play in the bigs. Barring any sudden trade for another catcher, he will remain at his position.

DirtySox
07-07-2009, 11:56 PM
Gobble DFA to make room.

http://twitter.com/InsideTheSox/status/2526567739

Sounds like an outfielder will be gone once Q comes back.

jabrch
07-08-2009, 12:15 AM
I'll trust KW, Coop and OG on this one. They know more about Allen and assumedly Pena than I do. These guys have a good track record of not trading away kids who amount to much.

In case anyone is curious how the greatest player that KW traded away is doing, CY, a 5 tool player is hitting .196/.284/.363 in 240 ABs. If Jeremy Reed is more your type, he's hitting .280/.310/.341 facing only RHP.

GregO23
07-08-2009, 12:33 AM
I'll trust KW, Coop and OG on this one. They know more about Allen and assumedly Pena than I do. These guys have a good track record of not trading away kids who amount to much.

In case anyone is curious how the greatest player that KW traded away is doing, CY, a 5 tool player is hitting .196/.284/.363 in 240 ABs. If Jeremy Reed is more your type, he's hitting .280/.310/.341 facing only RHP.

You are forgetting Ryan Sweeney. He is no doubt the best of the three

DSpivack
07-08-2009, 12:45 AM
You are forgetting Ryan Sweeney. He is no doubt the best of the three

Sweeney is batting a mighty .266/.318/.353.

Tragg
07-08-2009, 12:46 AM
I'll trust KW, Coop and OG on this one. They know more about Allen and assumedly Pena than I do. These guys have a good track record of not trading away kids who amount to much.

In case anyone is curious how the greatest player that KW traded away is doing, CY, a 5 tool player is hitting .196/.284/.363 in 240 ABs. If Jeremy Reed is more your type, he's hitting .280/.310/.341 facing only RHP.
that's true, but the question is, do the other teams know that and are we getting the most we can for our highly touted prospects?
After all, as it turned out, we turned THREE of them into Wilson Betemit.
Middle reliever for a top 5 prospect? We'll see in the next 30 days if that's the market.
Also creating doubts in my mind is that the deal was done with Arizona -again. ?able.

Looking at his K rates, I think there's some of that love of "stuff" at work here as well as some "coop will fix/improve him". But to me, that's our consumer surplus - we shouldn't pay extra because we think we can improve a player.

sullythered
07-08-2009, 12:54 AM
Sweeney is batting a mighty .266/.318/.353.
:o: Ew.

hawkjt
07-08-2009, 12:59 AM
Paulie could sign an extension and play first for another 4 years for the Sox, which would bridge them to another 1st baseman.
Beckham is a fixture at third...rest of the infield is set.
I like getting insurance in the bullpen against Liney or Dotel breaking down or going bad.
And Pena can slide into dotel slot next year.
Kenny is always thinking short and long term.

soltrain21
07-08-2009, 01:07 AM
Paulie could sign an extension and play first for another 4 years for the Sox, which would bridge them to another 1st baseman.
Beckham is a fixture at third...rest of the infield is set.
I like getting insurance in the bullpen against Liney or Dotel breaking down or going bad.
And Pena can slide into dotel slot next year.
Kenny is always thinking short and long term.


He had a good night tonight but....no way.

kittle42
07-08-2009, 01:10 AM
Good. One more name we can remove out of everyone's etched in stone lineup for 2011.

Konerko05
07-08-2009, 01:13 AM
I'll trust KW, Coop and OG on this one. They know more about Allen and assumedly Pena than I do.

Guillen actually admitted he had no idea who Pena was after the trade was completed. He joked how he thought they traded for the first base coach of the Yankees.

hawkjt
07-08-2009, 01:19 AM
He had a good night tonight but....no way.


When Thome,Dye and PK are gone, their 30+ homers ,100 rbis will be hard to replace all at once. PK can play for a few more years..at a lower price.

LoveYourSuit
07-08-2009, 01:19 AM
When I heard about this deal at the ballpark today (got a text from a friend) .... I said WOW, this is it we can get for this so called "stud" every resident scout on this board claims him to be?


At this pace, it would take 15 Brandon Allens to be able to acquire Roy Halladay.


I think we as fans way over-value our farm system.

California Sox
07-08-2009, 01:22 AM
Reminds me of the Mike Macdougal trade. Giving up a legit prospect for a 6th inning guy who can't find the strike zone... That is a real head shaker. It does say that KW really wants to go for it this year. I think Allen has similar value to Chris Carter. Carter nets you a starting major league outfielder and Allen nets you a guy who has struggled -- not just in the NL, but in the NL West, home of the giant ballpark -- this trade does not look good to me.

If it were Shelby or someone further from the majors, I'd get it. But Allen is close to ready for the majors. :scratch:

Konerko05
07-08-2009, 01:23 AM
When I heard about this deal at the ballpark today (got a text from a friend) .... I said WOW, this is it we can get for this so called "stud" every resident scout on this board claims him to be?


At this pace, it would take 15 Brandon Allens to be able to acquire Roy Halladay.


I think we as fans way over-value our farm system.

To be fair, Allen seemed more like a wild card prospect who didn't really reach a decent prospect status until his fifth year in the organization.

IMO, he's not in the same class as Gordon Beckham, Tyler Flowers, Jordan Danks.

MHOUSE
07-08-2009, 01:27 AM
I like this trade a lot as it helps us both in 2009 and beyond, which I think is most important. Dotel is gone after this year and you never know when Linebrink will need a 15-day DL stint. Our bullpen is a strength, but we would be pretty thin if Linebrink went down again or god forbid Thornton or Jenks. Plus, we get to subtract Jimmy Gobble which is an addition in itself!

Hopefully coop can straighten Pena out a-la Matt Thornton when he came to the Sox as a raw power arm who couldn't get it together. I also have a friend who has met some of the Diamondbacks through his brother and he told me Pena is a great guy. Take that for what it's worth.

oeo
07-08-2009, 01:48 AM
You can never have enough relievers, although I question giving up Allen. I mentioned it here before that I never thought Allen would ever wear a Sox uniform. Good luck to him.

1989
07-08-2009, 01:54 AM
So what's the general feeling about this trade?

The discussion I've been seeing is that this guy could have yielded a better return than what Kenny got but the reliever has a lively fastball and could be the guy who replaces a Dotel or Linebrink. I don't keep up with minor league prospects enough. How good is this Allen kid?

BigP50
07-08-2009, 01:58 AM
I think we could have gotten better.

But at least it just adds to are already beast bullpen..........

doublem23
07-08-2009, 02:16 AM
Reminds me of the Mike Macdougal trade. Giving up a legit prospect for a 6th inning guy who can't find the strike zone... That is a real head shaker. It does say that KW really wants to go for it this year. I think Allen has similar value to Chris Carter. Carter nets you a starting major league outfielder and Allen nets you a guy who has struggled -- not just in the NL, but in the NL West, home of the giant ballpark -- this trade does not look good to me.

If it were Shelby or someone further from the majors, I'd get it. But Allen is close to ready for the majors. :scratch:

Look at Allen and Carter's stats side by side, they don't even compare.

Craig Grebeck
07-08-2009, 02:39 AM
Look at Allen and Carter's stats side by side, they don't even compare.
Agree. That's a stretch to compare them.

CWSpalehoseCWS
07-08-2009, 02:53 AM
So what's the general feeling about this trade?

The discussion I've been seeing is that this guy could have yielded a better return than what Kenny got but the reliever has a lively fastball and could be the guy who replaces a Dotel or Linebrink. I don't keep up with minor league prospects enough. How good is this Allen kid?

We made an improvement (goodbye Gobble), but it might be that we gave up a little bit too much for a pitcher with nasty stuff and some inconsistencies. Allen was a good prospect, and one of the better ones in our system. But he did kind of come out of nowhere if I remember correctly.

ms620
07-08-2009, 08:26 AM
I love it how many people criticize the deal just by looking at Pena's stats. Take a closer look and you will see that he was lights out through April and May. He ran in to a tough stretch in June. If he just replicates his past performance, he immediately upgrades the bullpen as Gobble was useless in a meaningful spot. I have read he has a good arm, and maybe Cooper can help him a little bit. Who knows if this works out. Give it time before crying about a prospect being traded who might never pan out. Chris Young is hitting .198 by the way. I havent seen DLS stats lately, can anyone help me out? I did see Gio Gonzalez though..and that was not pretty. And by the way..Daniel Cortes, who is now 22, has a 3.92 ERA in AA. He has walked 50 guys in 80 innings. All I am saying is that Kenny is not always right, but he does know much more than all of us. No reason to overreact about a move like this.

Carolina Kenny
07-08-2009, 08:52 AM
Paulie could sign an extension and play first for another 4 years for the Sox, which would bridge them to another 1st baseman.
Beckham is a fixture at third...rest of the infield is set.
I like getting insurance in the bullpen against Liney or Dotel breaking down or going bad.
And Pena can slide into dotel slot next year.
Kenny is always thinking short and long term.

I agree. Paulie is far from being washed up. Allen would have been blocked by Paulie. Allen has not exhibited anywhere near Paulie's power component. The infield is pretty set now. The bullpen seems to be set right now, but bullpen's are always dominos waiting to fall. One player ie: Linebrink goes down and the bullpen could go chaotic. I strongly believe in the Sox braintrust to find these diamonds in the rough and make them into valuable pieces of the puzzle.
Congrats to Kenny, he is one of the top GM's in baseball today.

Gammons Peter
07-08-2009, 09:22 AM
If the Sox fall out of it, he's the new setup man, Thorton closes and Jenks hauls in a bunch of prospects

TomBradley72
07-08-2009, 09:52 AM
My $0.02:

I think we may have overpaid for Pena, but 1st base is an area where we have some organizational depth..and won't be a need until 2011 at the earliest.
Pena is definitely an upgrade over Gobble.
He gives us depth in case Linebrink or Dotel go down with injury.
Ozzie may be looking to lighten the load for the starters a bit during the "dog days" and go the pen a little earlier, he needed another arm to do that.
Could this be a possible scenario? Carrasco to 5th starter, Pena to Carrasco's role, Richard to Gobble's role?

gr8mexico
07-08-2009, 09:54 AM
I think Kenny Williams just set the price for RP's. If Kenny decides to trade either Dotel or Jenks the price will be super high .

KenBerryGrab
07-08-2009, 09:59 AM
Could this be a possible scenario? Carrasco to 5th starter, Pena to Carrasco's role, Richard to Gobble's role?


I like this scenario!

jabrch
07-08-2009, 10:06 AM
My $0.02:
I think we may have overpaid for Pena, but 1st base is an area where we have some organizational depth
Who?


I have no problem with moving Brandon - but not because we have depth at 1B. I just don't worry about 1B so much. It is the easiest position to find a quality player.

TomBradley72
07-08-2009, 10:37 AM
[/LIST]Who?


I have no problem with moving Brandon - but not because we have depth at 1B. I just don't worry about 1B so much. It is the easiest position to find a quality player.

I would see Viciedo as a 1B candidate, potentially Flowers...and I agree that 1st base is a relatively easy position to fill....and not a concern until 2011.

kevingrt
07-08-2009, 10:40 AM
I would see Viciedo as a 1B candidate, potentially Flowers...and I agree that 1st base is a relatively easy position to fill....and not a concern until 2011.

Agree. I don't mind giving up Allen because I think 1B is one of the easier positions to fill on a baseball diamond. However, I do think we overpaid a bit for a guy like Pena. But Hawk says whoever has the best bullpen will win the Central and if he is right we did strengthen our bullpen with this move. Now if Hawk is right is probably a better question.

jabrch
07-08-2009, 10:57 AM
I would see Viciedo as a 1B candidate, potentially Flowers...and I agree that 1st base is a relatively easy position to fill....and not a concern until 2011.


Well...neither of those guys have played the position so I wouldn't call that organizational depth at 1B. That said, I agree that it is not an area where we need to focus; as we are set with PK for a while, and if something does happen, 1B is a relatively easy position to find a FA or a decent guy who someone else doesn't have a spot for. You can also draft them fairly easily.

Bob G
07-08-2009, 10:57 AM
As I said in another thread last week I thought KW should pick up another set up guy to replace Gobble although I thought it would be a lefty. I'm glad he made the move - the bullpen is critical for a successful stretch run.

jabrch
07-08-2009, 11:00 AM
Agree. I don't mind giving up Allen because I think 1B is one of the easier positions to fill on a baseball diamond. However, I do think we overpaid a bit for a guy like Pena. But Hawk says whoever has the best bullpen will win the Central and if he is right we did strengthen our bullpen with this move. Now if Hawk is right is probably a better question.

IF Hawk is right - we are in good shape.

Jenks
Thornton
Linebrink
Dotel
Poreda
Pena
DJ

Rodney
Lyon
Zumaya
Miner
Seay
Ni
Dolsi

Nathan
Guerrier
Mijares
Dickey
Duensing
Keppel
Swarzak

Just for fun...Some folks were telling us before the season that the Indians had the best pen in the division...
Wood
Perez (1)
Perez (2)
Sipp
Smith
Abreu
Veras

thedudeabides
07-08-2009, 11:40 AM
So what's the general feeling about this trade?

The discussion I've been seeing is that this guy could have yielded a better return than what Kenny got but the reliever has a lively fastball and could be the guy who replaces a Dotel or Linebrink. I don't keep up with minor league prospects enough. How good is this Allen kid?

Allen surged up the Sox chart last year after showing a lot of power in split time between Winston-Salem and Birmingham. He has been showing more patience at the plate the last couple of years, but he also strikes out a bunch. His power numbers have dropped this year, as he only has 8 homeruns in 300 at bats, after hitting 29 between A-AA last year. He was called up to AAA Charlotte, but was only there for 15 games. He struggled a bit, with 0 walks and 1 homerun in 61 at bats. He is big, athletic, and lefty. He was 17/21 in stolen bases last year, but is only 1/3 this year. He's also a defensive liability. He had 15 errors at first base last year.

This was his sixth season in the Sox minor league system. His line was .259/.330./.457.

Unless his numbers pick up the rest of the year, he probably would have fallen off the Sox top 10 prospect list. He has sort of been up-and-down throughout his minor league career, so I think the Sox were just trying to sell high on him, as his numbers are trending down this year.

Chez
07-08-2009, 12:10 PM
Is Allen getting a shot immediately with the Diamondbacks or is he headed to the minors?

White City
07-08-2009, 12:57 PM
Wouldn't it be awesome if this was all set-up for a trade for Justin Smoak from the Rangers farm? Switch-hitting power first baseman with plus defense, who is just behind Beckham's developmental pattern and was a favorite of many Sox fans to be selected in the spot where we got Bacon?

Trade them Fields and Poreda.

Dye/Konerko/Smoak/Quentin become the 1B/RF/DH rotation in '10.

NLaloosh
07-08-2009, 01:04 PM
My opinion is just that the Sox want to win this year and they can't afford a big time starter like Halladay so they decided to bolster the bullpen.

Pena has long interested the Sox and he has been considered closer material.

As for next year - Dotel could be gone or Jenks could be traded.

ms620
07-08-2009, 01:06 PM
Wouldn't it be awesome if this was all set-up for a trade for Justin Smoak from the Rangers farm? Switch-hitting power first baseman with plus defense, who is just behind Beckham's developmental pattern and was a favorite of many Sox fans to be selected in the spot where we got Bacon?

Trade them Fields and Poreda.

Dye/Konerko/Smoak/Quentin become the 1B/RF/DH rotation in '10.

HAHAH yea the Sox can get Smoak, a "switch-hitting power first basemen with plus defense" for Fields and Poreda...

California Sox
07-08-2009, 01:09 PM
Well...neither of those guys have played the position so I wouldn't call that organizational depth at 1B. That said, I agree that it is not an area where we need to focus; as we are set with PK for a while, and if something does happen, 1B is a relatively easy position to find a FA or a decent guy who someone else doesn't have a spot for. You can also draft them fairly easily.

Just FYI, Flowers was too hurt to catch last year at Myrtle Beach. He played mostly first base. He also split time between catching and playing first in JC.

gr8mexico
07-08-2009, 01:10 PM
Wouldn't it be awesome if this was all set-up for a trade for Justin Smoak from the Rangers farm? Switch-hitting power first baseman with plus defense, who is just behind Beckham's developmental pattern and was a favorite of many Sox fans to be selected in the spot where we got Bacon?

Trade them Fields and Poreda.

Dye/Konerko/Smoak/Quentin become the 1B/RF/DH rotation in '10.
:scratch: If the Sox wont trade Gordon Beckham then why would the Rangers
trade Smoak who you consider the same as Beckham.

jabrch
07-08-2009, 01:19 PM
Just FYI, Flowers was too hurt to catch last year at Myrtle Beach. He played mostly first base. He also split time between catching and playing first in JC.


Didn't know that - thanks...

White City
07-08-2009, 02:17 PM
:scratch: If the Sox wont trade Gordon Beckham then why would the Rangers
trade Smoak who you consider the same as Beckham.

Because the Rangers might sense an opportunity to do something THIS SEASON in that division and might be interested in Poreda.

They need at least one more arm, and probably two or three.

Poreda isn't chopped liver.

doublem23
07-08-2009, 02:25 PM
Because the Rangers might sense an opportunity to do something THIS SEASON in that division and might be interested in Poreda.

They need at least one more arm, and probably two or three.

Poreda isn't chopped liver.

That's why he's worked a whole 7.2 innings since getting called up to the big leagues last month!

Poreda & Fields for Smoak. :rolling:

VeeckAsInWreck
07-08-2009, 02:30 PM
After giving us John Danks would the Rangers really deal with us again? :scratch:

Craig Grebeck
07-08-2009, 02:30 PM
Because the Rangers might sense an opportunity to do something THIS SEASON in that division and might be interested in Poreda.

They need at least one more arm, and probably two or three.

Poreda isn't chopped liver.
He's not worth Justin Smoak. End of story. Chris Davis? Maybe.

WhiteSoxFTW
07-08-2009, 03:08 PM
Well...neither of those guys have played the position so I wouldn't call that organizational depth at 1B. That said, I agree that it is not an area where we need to focus; as we are set with PK for a while, and if something does happen, 1B is a relatively easy position to find a FA or a decent guy who someone else doesn't have a spot for. You can also draft them fairly easily.

I'm okay with this trade, but I'd still like to point out how many people wanted PK gone for the majority of last year. PK is on fire right now, but what if he has another 2nd half slump? It can happen again.

jabrch
07-08-2009, 03:12 PM
I'm okay with this trade, but I'd still like to point out how many people wanted PK gone for the majority of last year. PK is on fire right now, but what if he has another 2nd half slump? It can happen again.

And they were absolutely wrong then.

Redus Redux
07-08-2009, 03:13 PM
After giving us John Danks would the Rangers really deal with us again? :scratch:

AZ took a lot of heat for the Quentin trade and yet just dealt with us

DSpivack
07-08-2009, 03:26 PM
AZ took a lot of heat for the Quentin trade and yet just dealt with us

I've heard this several times, that trade helped them get Dan Haren. That wasn't a bad trade for the DBacks.

Tragg
07-08-2009, 04:28 PM
IMO, he's not in the same class as Gordon Beckham, Tyler Flowers, Jordan Danks.
No he's not.
But good gracious he shouldn't be - Williams gives up Javy Vasquez for ONE top prospect.
If he were using an equivalent prospect to chase yet another career middle reliever, that would be pure insanity.

And imo, our prospects have been used less than judicously in the last few years.

As for Arizona trading with the Sox, yes we got Quentin, but they got a prospect they wanted; they stole Aaron Cunningham from us for the useless Richar (completely one-sided trade). Why would we want to do business with them after being ripped off like that?

The fact that we just called a familiar trade partner for the middle reliever and paid a premium price makes me wonder.

White City
07-08-2009, 05:07 PM
That's why he's worked a whole 7.2 innings since getting called up to the big leagues last month!

Poreda & Fields for Smoak. :rolling:

You may be right, but his amount of work is not indicative of his potential. They're obviously working on his secondary pitches with Coop.

Poreda + Richard if you prefer (if we feel Colon will come back and be worth anything -- have they even found him yet?).

Anyhow, being a little Smoak-obsessed ain't so bad, given the more harrowing player obsessions of some of the regulars here. If Kenny can swing a way to get him here, I'd be ecstatic.

KRS1
07-08-2009, 06:00 PM
That's why he's worked a whole 7.2 innings since getting called up to the big leagues last month!

Poreda & Fields for Smoak. :rolling:

And has a whopping 1.17 ERA and WHIP!

There's nothing wrong with bringing a guy like him along slowly in the pen while honing his stuff and teaching him how to pitch like a pro.

jabrch
07-08-2009, 06:05 PM
Anyhow, being a little Smoak-obsessed ain't so bad, given the more harrowing player obsessions of some of the regulars here. If Kenny can swing a way to get him here, I'd be ecstatic.

There is absolutely no reason that the Rangers would trade Smoak now for lesser prospects. If they are going to trade him, they likely could get into the Roy Halladay sweepstakes.

doublem23
07-08-2009, 06:06 PM
And has a whopping 1.17 ERA and WHIP!

There's nothing wrong with bringing a guy like him along slowly in the pen while honing his stuff and teaching him how to pitch like a pro.

If only there was some sort of "minor" leagues for guys to develop.

ERA and WHIP, by the way, are worthless stats over 7 innings. That's like saying Beckham should be DFA'd because his BA was .000 after his 1st 7 at bats.

KRS1
07-08-2009, 06:10 PM
If only there was some sort of "minor" leagues for guys to develop.

ERA and WHIP, by the way, are worthless stats over 7 innings.

That same can be said for judging his future based on how much he's thrown in his first month when there are plenty of other factors involved. He's been up in the pen plenty, and in a lot of those situations the game turned on a dime into a tight one. Maybe Ozzie doesn't want to ruin his psyche by putting into the pressure cooker just yet. You know, the prudent thing. It never hurts to be under the tutelage of one of the best pitching coaches in baseball versus going through the motions in AAA.

Craig Grebeck
07-08-2009, 06:11 PM
If only there was some sort of "minor" leagues for guys to develop.

ERA and WHIP, by the way, are worthless stats over 7 innings. That's like saying Beckham should be DFA'd because his BA was .000 after his 1st 7 at bats.
Ok. 8 K and 2 BB.

KRS1
07-08-2009, 06:13 PM
That's like saying Beckham should be DFA'd because his BA was .000 after his 1st 7 at bats.


Yes, because pitching against 23 big league hitters successfully and 7 ABs is very comparable. :rolleyes:

doublem23
07-08-2009, 06:25 PM
Ok. 8 K and 2 BB.

That's still in 7 innings of work. A borderline 3-2 pitch gets called the other way, and that's 7 K, 3 BB, not nearly as impressive.

Yes, because pitching against 23 big league hitters successfully and 7 ABs is very comparable. :rolleyes:

So 23 is the magic number? Beckham was hitting .100/.182/.100 after his first 23 Major League at bats. Man, does he suck.

KRS1
07-08-2009, 06:30 PM
That's still in 7 innings of work. A borderline 3-2 pitch gets called the other way, and that's 7 K, 3 BB, not nearly as impressive.



So 23 is the magic number? Beckham was hitting .100/.182/.100 after his first 23 Major League at bats. Man, does he suck.

Pitching V. hitting are Apples and flippin oranges, but whatever floats your argument/boat. How you even managed to toss Gordon in this argument is beyond me, but again whatever floats your argument.

Look, I'm not trying to make him out to be a super stud. Just showing you some contradiction to your seeming dismisal of him based on how much he has done in less than a month in the bigs. You can claim his first month means nothing by tossing out numbers, I can show how it indicative of SOMETHING very positive based on the other numbers and circumstances within.

EDIT: Now that I think about it, your Gordon argument is almost an exact reason why NOT to side with your estimation of what Poreda has done. You can play whatever card you want with Aaron, but there's some pretty solid reasoning why people shouldn't agree with you. Heck, just watching him pitch is pretty solid reasoning to do so. No, his offspeed stuff isn't the best right now, but they've done the job, and he's shown his fastballs really are plus-plus pitches to go along with good command he has over them.

doublem23
07-08-2009, 06:36 PM
Pitching V. hitting are Apples and flippin oranges, but whatever floats your argument/boat. How you even managed to toss Gordon in this argument is beyond me, but again whatever floats your argument.

Look, I'm not trying to make him out to be a super stud. Just showing you some contradiction to your seeming dismisal of him based on how much he has done in less than a month in the bigs. You can claim his first month means nothing by tossing out numbers, I can show how it indicative of SOMETHING very positive based on the other numbers and circumstances within.

I want Poreda to start, what the hell is the point of him eating a roster spot if he's never going to pitch. We may as well see what we've got.

I'm pretty much wary of any Sox prospect who was in the system in that 15/20-Year Dead Zone between the very early 1990s, when our system produced Big Frank, Black Jack, Ventura, etc. and the Beckham Draft. We've produced next to nothing between then, especially pitchers. Seriously, there's Buehrle and then who is the next best pitcher the Sox have produced in that time period? Garland*? Sirotka? Kip Wells? Rauch?

Sorry, I've given up on hope for any of these guys. Poreda may be good, but I'm not going to hold my breath.

KRS1
07-08-2009, 06:39 PM
I want Poreda to start, what the hell is the point of him eating a roster spot if he's never going to pitch. We may as well see what we've got.

I'm pretty much wary of any Sox prospect who was in the system in that 15/20-Year Dead Zone between the very early 1990s, when our system produced Big Frank, Black Jack, Ventura, etc. and the Beckham Draft. We've produced next to nothing between then, especially pitchers. Seriously, there's Buehrle and then who is the next best pitcher the Sox have produced in that time period? Garland*? Sirotka? Kip Wells? Rauch?

Sorry, I've given up on hope for any of these guys. Poreda may be good, but I'm not going to hold my breath.

Nor am I for the same reasons you aren't, but like I said, there's enough there from him think otherwise. Throw out all the numbers and circumstances and just watch him pitch, and I think it's hard NOT to have some pretty good hope for him.