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View Full Version : The "Master" Plan (aka The Great "Hemond vs. Williams Debate")


Lip Man 1
07-06-2009, 06:44 PM
A lot has changed in the first three months of the season for the White Sox.

Remember on opening day, the team had such "quality" players on it as Mike MacDougal (shudder...), "Corky" Miller and Wilson Betemit.

The original plan for the starting rotation back in the spring was supposed to have been Clayton Richard and Jeff Marquez (double shudder...) at the end of it.

The Sox caught a massive break with Scott Podsednik, and fell flat on their faces with some others. (Josh Fields, Dewayne Wise) Some are still playing out. (Chris Getz)

Mark Gonzales (http://www.chicagotribune.com/sports/baseball/whitesox/chi-07-white-sox-chicago-jul07,0,1158060.story) of the Chicago Tribune looks at that 'master' plan and how the Sox have had to adjust and may adjust more as the second half gets going.

It's a good read.

Lip

Brian26
07-06-2009, 07:26 PM
I'd say the mark of a good GM is being able to recognize deficiencies in the roster and make corrections on the fly. This is just as important of a trait as guessing right before the season begins.

I wouldn't try to tear Kenny down because of the Betemit acquisition or his decision to give MacDougal one more try. Rather, I see it as a positive that he had the foresight to load up on middle infield help (Jayson Nix), kept Carrasco around and went out to get Ramon Castro when he was made available.

Kudos to Kenny Williams on staying aggressive and not throwing in the towel.

He's still got one more ring than Roland Hemond earned with the Sox. It's nice to see a GM who will go out and correct mistakes instead of someone who would sit on an albatross Julio Cruz contract for two-plus years.

Lip Man 1
07-06-2009, 07:57 PM
Brian:

I'm not going to make this into a debate on who was the better GM but history shows NO Sox G.M. (and I mean that literally...NONE) EVER had the handicaps that Roland Hemond walked into when he took the job as Director of Player Personnel in September 1970. Nor did any Sox G.M. EVER have to deal with the financial issues throughout his tenure as Hemond did. (and that includes his days under Reinsdorf.)

The time period and the deal you lampoon "happens" to have come under the time when JR realized the "cost" of winning and decided to pull back dramatically on spending and start the process of collusion (according to Fay Vincent in his book) with other owners. That started in 1984 (Joe McConnell also talked to me along these same lines...) Hemond's hands were tied.

Kenny is a good GM, Roland was, in my opinion, the BEST G.M. the Sox ever had and the lists of deals he made that were highway robberies can be found in my interview with him at WSI.

This sounds like someone who simply isn't old enough to get a more thorough sense or grasp of history.

Lip

Brian26
07-06-2009, 08:33 PM
Lip:

I purposefully picked a move that happened after the Sunshine Boys took over so as to illustrate that anybody can make a bad move or have a decision blow up in their face, but it takes someone special to make amends on the fly.

You're right, there's no point in debating Hemond vs. Williams. You claim your boy Hemond's hands were tied in the Allyn and Veeck eras, and then you claim his hands were tied two years after the Sunshine Boys took over because of collusion. You're saying that his hands were tied in 13 of the 15 years he was GM. I can't win that argument, even though Kenny won the ring after shipping Carlos Lee out of town and not re-signing Mags...his most creative year payroll-wise.

Lip Man 1
07-06-2009, 08:44 PM
Brian:

Again I'm not saying Kenny's a bad G.M. as you seem to be inferring.

I'm saying the things he's had going for him are luxuries that Hemond could have only dreamed about.

Yes it's a historical fact Hemond had his hands tied for most of his career. Yes Williams made a bold move with Lee and it turned out right for him (I wonder what your opinion would have been of him had it blown up?). He also made the Jim Thome deal which may, notice I say may, ultimately have cost the Sox in the long run because it got them away from the 'balanced' offensive approach in 2005, added another slow footed, base clogger in the lineup and left a gaping hole in center field. (That's not to say Jim is a bad guy and hasn't produced but it altered the chemistry on the club at the very least..this may be a situation where boldness was uncalled for) Kenny also had a 75 million dollar payroll to work with in 2005 which from an adjusted monetary standpoint allowing for different eras was about ten times more then Hemond had to work with.

As far as bold moves. You might remember some of these:

Roland Hemond’s Best Trades: (in chronological order...)

1. November 30, 1971: White Sox send Ken Berry, Syd O’Brien and Billy Wynne to California for catcher Tom Egan, starting pitcher Tom Bradley and outfielder Jay Johnstone. (Author’s Note: Bradley would win fifteen games with a sub three ERA in both 1971 and 1972. Egan served as a very good backup to Ed Herrmann and Johnstone added speed, pinch hitting abilities and a crazy character to keep the clubhouse relaxed.)

2. December 2, 1971: White Sox send Tommy John and Steve Huntz to Los Angeles for first baseman Dick Allen. (Author’s Note: The trade that saved the franchise. Allen won the MVP award in 1972 leading the Sox to a near division championship. His ability to hit for power and average was unmatched on the South Side for years. Three time All Star.)

3. December 2, 1971: White Sox send Rich McKinney to the Yankees for starting pitcher Stan Bahnsen. (Author’s Note: Bahnsen would win 54 games in three and a half seasons in Chicago including 21 in 1972.)

4. November 19, 1972: White Sox send Tom Bradley to San Francisco for outfielder Ken Henderson and pitcher Steve Stone. (Author’s Note: Henderson was a Gold Glove winning, power hitting center fielder while Stone added depth to the pitching staff. Bradley never regained the form that he showed with the Sox and was out of baseball by 1975.)

5. August 14, 1973: White Sox acquire starting pitcher Jim Kaat on waivers from Minnesota. (Author’s Note: Kaat was a two time twenty game winner for the Sox in 1974 and 1975. Made the All Star Team in 1975. Won 45 games in two and a quarter years in Chicago.

6. June 15, 1975: White Sox send pitchers Stan Bahnsen and ‘Skip’ Pitlock to Oakland for outfielder Chet Lemon and pitcher Dave Hamilton. (Author’s Note: Lemon would turn into one of the top center fielders in baseball with the Sox making the All Star Team twice. Hamilton was a regular contributor to the 1977 White Sox team with four wins and nine saves.)

7. December 11, 1975: White Sox send third baseman Bill Melton and pitcher Steve Dunning to California for first baseman Jim Spencer and outfielder Morris Nettles. (Author’s Note: Melton had a bad back and had worn out his welcome getting into a shouting match in a Milwaukee hotel lobby with broadcaster Harry Caray. Spencer meanwhile won a Gold Glove for his defensive prowess in 1977 saving many errors. He also had 18 home runs and 69 RBI’s for the South Side Hit Men, twice driving in eight runs in a game.)

8. April 4, 1977: White Sox send shortstop Bucky Dent to the Yankees for outfielder Oscar Gamble, pitchers LaMarr Hoyt and Bob Polinsky and cash.(Author’s Note: The deal was made because the Sox could not afford to resign Dent. Gamble blasted 31 home runs for the South Side Hit Men. Hoyt would become a very good starting pitcher winning the Cy Young Award after going 24-10 in 1983.)

9. July 10, 1979: White Sox send pitcher Jack Kucek to the Phillies for infielder Jim Morrison. (Author’s Note: When the Sox were being rebuilt in the early 80's Morrison provided stability and power at either second or third base. Had three seasons of double figure home run totals.)

10. December 12, 1980: White Sox send pitcher ‘Tex’ Wortham to Montreal for second baseman Tony Bernazard. (Author’s Note: Bernazard was a switch hitter with speed and the ability to hit to all fields. He was a good second baseman in his two and a half years with the Sox. Hemond then sent him to Seattle for Julio Cruz a move that crystalized the 1983 team.)

11. January 25, 1983: White Sox send pitchers Steve Trout and Warren Brusstar to the Cubs for infielders Scott Fletcher and Pat Tabler along with pitchers Dick Tidrow and Randy Martz. (Author’s Note: Perhaps Hemond’s greatest deal. Roland used the free agent compensation rules that were in use at the time to inquire about getting Cubs future Hall Of Fame pitcher Ferguson Jenkins whom they left unprotected. Cubs G.M. Dallas Green got word of it and quickly made this deal. Part of it was the promise by Hemond that the Sox would not take Jenkins. Fletcher and Tidrow were important parts of the 1983 team. Tabler was then traded to Cleveland for Jerry Dybzinski adding another part to the club.)

12. January 20, 1984: White Sox select starting pitcher Tom Seaver from the free agent compensation pool. (Author’s Note: The future Hall Of Famer would win 32 games in two years with the Sox including his 300th beating the Yankees 4-1 on August 4, 1985.)

13. December 6, 1984: White Sox send pitcher LaMarr Hoyt and two minor leaguers to San Diego for pitchers Tim Lollar and Bill Long along with infielder/outfielder Luis Salazar and shortstop Ozzie Guillen. (Author’s Note: Hoyt would see his career quickly end after the 1985 season due to substance abuse. Lollar and Salazar helped the 1985 team to a winning record but Guillen would become the Rookie Of The Year and win a Gold Glove in 1990 along with becoming a two time All Star.)

Kenny Williams doesn't have to "prove" himself to me or anyone...and neither does Roland Hemond. Pay particular note to trade #2 and #11 when talking about "boldness" And by the way, the original Sunshine Boys as dubbed by the local media were Hemond and Chuck Tanner in the early 70's, not Reinsdorf and Einhorn.

Lip

Brian26
07-06-2009, 09:17 PM
11. January 25, 1983: White Sox send pitchers Steve Trout and Warren Brusstar to the Cubs for infielders Scott Fletcher and Pat Tabler along with pitchers Dick Tidrow and Randy Martz. (Author’s Note: Perhaps Hemond’s greatest deal. Roland used the free agent compensation rules that were in use at the time to inquire about getting Cubs future Hall Of Fame pitcher Ferguson Jenkins whom they left unprotected. Cubs G.M. Dallas Green got word of it and quickly made this deal. Part of it was the promise by Hemond that the Sox would not take Jenkins. Fletcher and Tidrow were important parts of the 1983 team. Tabler was then traded to Cleveland for Jerry Dybzinski adding another part to the club.)

Lindberg in "Who's On 3rd" (p. 193) mentions that Jimmy Piersall said "nobody in the Sox organization was smart enough to put a gun to the Cubs head" on this trade.

Would the Sox had been that worse off with Fergie Jenkins as their 5th starter in 1983 with Brusstar and Trout in the bullpen, Vance Law at SS, and Lorenzo Gray (or Buddy Bell via trade) at 3B? Trout and Brusstar pitched fairly well for the Cubs in '83 and '84. I never thought the return of Fletcher and, indirectly, Dybber was all that great.

We could go on and on about this. Hemond's your guy, which is fine. I just find it interesting that you pick the GM from one of the least successful eras in Sox history and annoint him as the greatest ever, yet you want to take Kenny Williams to task at every chance you get when he's the one with the ring.

As for Hemond's trade history, do you have a list of his clunker deals too? How about Chet Lemon for Steve Kemp? Or letting Gossage and Forster go for Zisk? Or not protecting Pete Vukovich in the expansion draft?

hi im skot
07-06-2009, 09:23 PM
As far as bold moves. You might remember some of these:

Roland Hemond’s Best Trades: (in chronological order...)



Needs more "author's notes".

Frater Perdurabo
07-06-2009, 09:46 PM
I think KW overall has a solid "master plan" since winning the World Series. This plan has been to "reload on the fly" while remaining competitive. The Sox have done this, other than in 2007.

In 2006, they failed due to the collapse of the starting pitching (especially Buehrle) in the second half. But you can't argue with 90 wins in the toughest division in baseball in 2006. KW's fault? Nope. He actually improved the team with the Thome and Vazquez deals; they were the best team in baseball during the first half of the season.

In 2008, late season injuries (Quentin, Crede, Contreras), four bad months by Paulie, and a bad season from Swisher that no one could have anticipated, kept them from winning the division earlier, which forced Danks to pitch Game 163, which forced Ozzie to pitch Vazquez in Game 1 of the ALDS. Even without Quentin, Crede or Contreras, I think the Sox would have advanced to the ALCS simply if Danks could have started Game 1 against the Rays (and thus started Game 4 or 5 if necessary). KW's fault? Nope. Again, he reloaded the team after the 2007 debacle and put them in position to win the division.

Bottom line, the Sox have either made the playoffs and/or won 90+ games in three of the past four seasons. And I think they have a good shot to make it four out of five this year. In addition, KW has overseen the development of some promising young players who already are making positive contributions at the MLB level.

PeoriaSoxFan
07-06-2009, 09:46 PM
A lot has changed in the first three months of the season for the White Sox.

Remember on opening day, the team had such "quality" players on it as Mike MacDougal (shudder...), "Corky" Miller and Wilson Betemit.


Lip

MacDougal now has 5 saves with the Nats. With that said, I don't miss him.

Tragg
07-06-2009, 09:47 PM
2. December 2, 1971: White Sox send Tommy John and Steve Huntz to Los Angeles for first baseman Dick Allen. (Author’s Note: The trade that saved the franchise. Allen won the MVP award in 1972 leading the Sox to a near division championship. His ability to hit for power and average was unmatched on the South Side for years. Three time All Star.)



Dick Allen had the single best season of any Sox player since since I've been following (1967) - he carried that team on his back.
And I take your word that he saved the Sox.
That said, who had the better career 1972 and beyond? Dick Allen or Tommy John?
Take the Zisk trade - it provided one year oasis in a series of crud years, but the price was dear, dear.
The Brian Downing trade, even though it brought Dick Dotson, was an overall negative.
His Clay Carrol trade was pretty bad - Sylvio Martinez had a couple of good years with ST Louis and they moved him for Lonnie Smith.
Anyway, he made a lot of trades, many good, many ?able.
That said, I had the feeling he was operating with tin cans and a string budget.

jabrch
07-06-2009, 09:48 PM
Making a comment about Hemond....That's Lip-Bating at it's finest :D:

Patrick134
07-06-2009, 09:53 PM
MacDougal now has 5 saves with the Nats. With that said, I don't miss him.

MacDougal had good stuff, he just didn't put it together here . Guys struggle and it becomes comical how they get treated on this board sometimes.

Lip Man 1
07-06-2009, 10:18 PM
Brian says:

"As for Hemond's trade history, do you have a list of his clunker deals too? How about Chet Lemon for Steve Kemp? Or letting Gossage and Forster go for Zisk? Or not protecting Pete Vukovich in the expansion draft?"
----------------------------
From my interview with Chet Lemon:

ML: You hit .302 in the strike shortened season and played your usual solid defense but on November 27, 1981 you were shipped to Detroit for Steve Kemp. The reasoning as I remember it was that the Sox wanted more balance in the line up and Kemp was left handed. (Author’s Note: Harold Baines was basically the only power threat from the left side as opposed to having guys like Fisk, Luzinski and the newly acquired Tom Paciorek who were all right handed hitters.) Were you ever told by the Sox why they let you go?

CL: "That may have been part of it but there was another reason."

"In spring training 1981 I had verbally agreed to a five year contract that would have made me the highest paid player on the team. It was a great negotiations. Eddie Einhorn, Jerry Reinsdorf, Roland Hemond, my agent and I all sat around a table one day and worked everything out including some deferred compensation. For some reason I hadn’t gotten around to actually signing the document though. A few weeks later they signed Carlton Fisk and his numbers came out. When I saw those I told my agent ‘hmmmm maybe we need to renegotiate.’ Everything that I did in five years, I did in Chicago and now I wasn’t going to be the highest paid player anymore. I know it was childish on my part but that’s the way I felt at the time."

"It created some problems. After a period of time I said that I’d just play my next year out (1982) and then see what happens in that off season."

Hemond had no choice but to try to get what he could for him.

The Zisk deal was made by Bill Veeck not Hemond. I can't answer the Vukovich issue, don't know anything about that.

Regarding your contention that I bash Williams at every chance, that's not true and you know it.

I have said that if he gets the credit for 2005 than he needs to take the blame for 2007 (particular the bone headed bullpen philosophy) and if his not doing a thing in the free agent market this past off season (in a buyer's market) leads to another losing season in 2009 (which is still easily possible) than he'll have to take the blame for it too. (Now in fairness to Kenny HIS hands may have been tied by ownership worried more about losing advertising revenue after the season and trying to lessen the blow. I'm working some sources on this for my Tribune blog, I'm just trying to find out if that actually happened!)

And you know what? Kenny has told the Chicago media the same thing, if the team does poorly, he gets the blame.

Sounds very fair to me.

Kenny has had a lot more to work with then Hemond ever had, that needs to be factored in. A total look at things, not just "he won a title, that beats all..." No, it doesn't.

Lip

Tragg
07-06-2009, 10:41 PM
Kenny has had a lot more to work with then Hemond ever had, that needs to be factored in. A total look at things, not just "he won a title, that beats all..." No, it doesn't.

Lip


There's no question about that. And it didn't take Hemond long to field a winner once JR bought the team.
Lip, why did Hemond leave the Sox?

Jim Shorts
07-06-2009, 10:45 PM
This thread has been a fantastic read. I appreciate being able to read it, your rememberings of history, and your opinions of it.

Lip -

I understand what you're saying. But, if players and managers are judged by the ring, then the GM's have to judged that way as well

Zisk77
07-06-2009, 11:03 PM
Brian:

I'm not going to make this into a debate on who was the better GM but history shows NO Sox G.M. (and I mean that literally...NONE) EVER had the handicaps that Roland Hemond walked into when he took the job as Director of Player Personnel in September 1970. Nor did any Sox G.M. EVER have to deal with the financial issues throughout his tenure as Hemond did. (and that includes his days under Reinsdorf.)

The time period and the deal you lampoon "happens" to have come under the time when JR realized the "cost" of winning and decided to pull back dramatically on spending and start the process of collusion (according to Fay Vincent in his book) with other owners. That started in 1984 (Joe McConnell also talked to me along these same lines...) Hemond's hands were tied.

Kenny is a good GM, Roland was, in my opinion, the BEST G.M. the Sox ever had and the lists of deals he made that were highway robberies can be found in my interview with him at WSI.

This sounds like someone who simply isn't old enough to get a more thorough sense or grasp of history.

Lip


Essentially, you two have made this thread just that - a debate Hemond vs. K. Williams. Thats ok it made for much more interesting reading than what Gonzo had to say. :cool:

Now, the holy Roman empire: it was neither holy, Roman, or an empire discuss. :redneck

kitekrazy
07-06-2009, 11:07 PM
I'd say the mark of a good GM is being able to recognize deficiencies in the roster and make corrections on the fly. This is just as important of a trait as guessing right before the season begins.

I wouldn't try to tear Kenny down because of the Betemit acquisition or his decision to give MacDougal one more try. Rather, I see it as a positive that he had the foresight to load up on middle infield help (Jayson Nix), kept Carrasco around and went out to get Ramon Castro when he was made available.

Kudos to Kenny Williams on staying aggressive and not throwing in the towel.

He's still got one more ring than Roland Hemond earned with the Sox. It's nice to see a GM who will go out and correct mistakes instead of someone who would sit on an albatross Julio Cruz contract for two-plus years.

and taking a chance on Pods

getting rid of Needsabettamitt and the benching of Fields has made a major improvement, another IF glove is needed to send the message to Alexi that mediocrity is not tolerated.

Noneck
07-06-2009, 11:13 PM
and taking a chance on Pods



No chance there, it was a no lose. Sometimes finding a gem in the junkyard happens, sometimes its just a clunker.

drewcifer
07-06-2009, 11:20 PM
I'd say the mark of a good GM is being able to recognize deficiencies in the roster and make corrections on the fly. This is just as important of a trait as guessing right before the season begins.

I wouldn't try to tear Kenny down because of the Betemit acquisition or his decision to give MacDougal one more try. Rather, I see it as a positive that he had the foresight to load up on middle infield help (Jayson Nix), kept Carrasco around and went out to get Ramon Castro when he was made available.

Kudos to Kenny Williams on staying aggressive and not throwing in the towel.

He's still got one more ring than Roland Hemond earned with the Sox. It's nice to see a GM who will go out and correct mistakes instead of someone who would sit on an albatross Julio Cruz contract for two-plus years.

I see that this thread has lots of posts, but I have to respond to this early one. He traded 2 potentially SUPER pitchers, for Betemit (in the end), don't forget that.

Monumentally stupid.

Swisher didn't fit - fine. But he actually made that trade WORSE and nobody should make excuses for that.

Just awful.

Plus, Ryan Sweeney is even marginally better than BA, his defensive win shares are VERY good (if you go for that sort of thing), and DeWhyThe**** isn't even on the map, so we lost on moving him (Sweeney) in lieu of him too.

Lip Man 1
07-07-2009, 12:13 AM
Jim:

I can't speak for anybody else but I don't judge a player simply on how many championships they won.

Is Dan Marino a bad quarterback because he never won a Super Bowl? How about Patrick Ewing, Karl Malone, John Stockton, Charles Barkley?

To me that's part of the equation but a player, regardless of how great they are, can't win a title by himself. Same for a coach, G.M. or owner. There are multiple factors that enter into it including a word I hate to use, but is reality, luck.

------------

Tragg:

Here's what I know. First a short history lesson:

July 11, 1985 - The Sox blow a game and lose to the Orioles in Baltimore 7 - 6. The loss would have long term consequences for the franchise because it eventually led to the firing of longtime G.M. Roland Hemond. With two outs and the Sox leading 6 - 3, Bob James, the team closer hurt his right knee. In came journeyman relief pitcher Mike Stanton who was picked up out of the minors a few weeks before. Stanton didn’t get a man out and gave up a three run, game winning home run to Fred Lynn. Up in the broadcast booth, Sox announcers Don Drysdale and Ken “Hawk” Harrelson were openly questioning the organization if the ‘best’ they could do was Stanton. It planted the seed in the mind of ownership that a change was needed. That ‘change’ turned out to be Harrelson... named the new G.M. that off season. The rest as they say is history.

Now directly from Roland's interview:

ML: Your tenure with the Sox ended after the 1985 season when broadcaster ‘Hawk’ Harrelson was named to replace you. Can you talk about the circumstances surrounding that and give us an overview of the rest of your career.

RH: “I’ll withhold my comments regarding the Hawk episode.”
---------------------------------------------------

What I did find out was that in September shortly before the season ended Roland was asked to meet with ownership which he did. After the meeting he was walking out with JR when Jerry started to ask him about his family. Apparently JR forgot that he had another appointment scheduled and as they were talking one "Hawk" Harrelson pulled up for his meeting Needless to say it made for a very awkward moment or two. That was the first indication from what I was told that Roland thought something was up. He was basically fired. That's cool but for "Hawk" Harrelson? O.K..............and remember this was during the time when ownership refused to spend money nor sign free agents. What was Hemond supposed to do? That's something Don and "Hawk" may not have had knowledge about (i.e. collusion)

To Kenny Williams' credit one of the first things he did when he took over from Ron Schueler was ask for permission to hire Roland as his special adviser. Kenny was smart enough to know he didn't know everything he needed to know and wanted the guidance that Hemond brought to the table.

Now you know as much as I do on this issue.

Lip

hawkjt
07-07-2009, 08:18 AM
My main areas of concern pre-season:

1. Leadoff- started poorly, but with the addition of Pods,has become a strength.
2.Rotation- 4th and 5th spots...with the re-surgence of Jose,and reasonably decent Clayton Richard in the 5th spot...better than I could have hoped.
3. Third Base- Josh started ok, had a bad May..and now Beckham has emerged and looks very promising.

For a Sox fan, I am reasonably content with our roster as it stands. If Carlos comes back close to normal Carlos, and we stay healthy, I like our chances to catch the Tigers and Twins. Maybe add a bat,and a starter,but not urgent.

So far for Kenny this season, I give him an A-....I like this roster more than I imagined after the offseason slashing the payroll. There is no glaring problem player that I am desperate to see out of the lineup right now,especially after Carlos returns.

russ99
07-07-2009, 11:14 AM
Dick Allen had the single best season of any Sox player since since I've been following (1967) - he carried that team on his back.
And I take your word that he saved the Sox.
That said, who had the better career 1972 and beyond? Dick Allen or Tommy John?
Take the Zisk trade - it provided one year oasis in a series of crud years, but the price was dear, dear.
The Brian Downing trade, even though it brought Dick Dotson, was an overall negative.
His Clay Carrol trade was pretty bad - Sylvio Martinez had a couple of good years with ST Louis and they moved him for Lonnie Smith.
Anyway, he made a lot of trades, many good, many ?able.
That said, I had the feeling he was operating with tin cans and a string budget.

I also reiterate that while Hemond made some great trades, he didn't always walk on water.

He was an exceptional GM, but many of his deals trading away solid young talent in the 70's who would go on to build solid or hall-of-fame careers for "help us now" vets - were not all based on poor finances. Most were before free agency started in 75/76.

But then again, the Sox often would trade young talent to pick up an experienced rental player all through Veeck's ownership runs, and Kenny's continued with that in his regime.

But I guess every GM has those "if we could have held onto so-and-so" players they gave up on too early.

dickallen15
07-07-2009, 11:48 AM
Dick Allen had the single best season of any Sox player since since I've been following (1967) - he carried that team on his back.
And I take your word that he saved the Sox.
That said, who had the better career 1972 and beyond? Dick Allen or Tommy John?
Take the Zisk trade - it provided one year oasis in a series of crud years, but the price was dear, dear.
The Brian Downing trade, even though it brought Dick Dotson, was an overall negative.
His Clay Carrol trade was pretty bad - Sylvio Martinez had a couple of good years with ST Louis and they moved him for Lonnie Smith.
Anyway, he made a lot of trades, many good, many ?able.
That said, I had the feeling he was operating with tin cans and a string budget.

The Zisk trade was all soon to be free agents, so the one year oasis was all Gossage and Forster would have been around anyway.

The Downing trade not only included Dotson who helped the Sox win a division, it also included Bosley and Bonds. Bonds was sent to Texas for Claudell Washington. While Washington never lived up to expectations and Bosley was never the player he was hyped to be, if this trade was one of Hemond's bad ones, he should be in the HOF.

As you stated, he was operating with no money.

bigdommer
07-07-2009, 11:49 AM
I have said that if he gets the credit for 2005 than he needs to take the blame for 2007 (particular the bone headed bullpen philosophy) and if his not doing a thing in the free agent market this past off season (in a buyer's market) leads to another losing season in 2009 (which is still easily possible) than he'll have to take the blame for it too. (Now in fairness to Kenny HIS hands may have been tied by ownership worried more about losing advertising revenue after the season and trying to lessen the blow. I'm working some sources on this for my Tribune blog, I'm just trying to find out if that actually happened!)

And you know what? Kenny has told the Chicago media the same thing, if the team does poorly, he gets the blame.

Sounds very fair to me.

Kenny has had a lot more to work with then Hemond ever had, that needs to be factored in. A total look at things, not just "he won a title, that beats all..." No, it doesn't.

Lip

While I agree that KW's failure to address the bullpen that year is on his shoulders, there were a lot of things beyond his control. Pods & Crede spent most of the year on the DL. While no one liked the Erstad signing, he was injured the entire season so we'll never know if he could play. JD & MB were lame ducks all season because they didn't have a contract. He gave away Iguchi to save some $$$ and get something. And if Thornton does not have by far his worst season, maybe the bullpen does not appear so bad. Konerko was pretty bad that year too.

bigdommer
07-07-2009, 02:12 PM
I see that this thread has lots of posts, but I have to respond to this early one. He traded 2 potentially SUPER pitchers, for Betemit (in the end), don't forget that.

Monumentally stupid.

Swisher didn't fit - fine. But he actually made that trade WORSE and nobody should make excuses for that.

Just awful.

Plus, Ryan Sweeney is even marginally better than BA, his defensive win shares are VERY good (if you go for that sort of thing), and DeWhyThe**** isn't even on the map, so we lost on moving him (Sweeney) in lieu of him too.

Yeah, but he got Gio and Gavin Floyd for Freddy Garcia. So, he took something that was already worthless (Freddy, at the time) and turned it into someone who is already a front of the rotation guy (Gavin) and a prospect who has not shown any MLB promise so far (Gio). Gavin's only two years older than Gio.

Sweeney is a 4th outfielder, and we have enough of those.

Lip Man 1
07-07-2009, 02:55 PM
Tragg:

The Bonds deal including Downing was also one that Veeck made himself going over the head of Hemond.

Lip

Noneck
07-07-2009, 03:02 PM
Tragg:

The Bonds deal including Downing was also one that Veeck made himself going over the head of Hemond.

Lip

Lip,

Do you know how many and which deals were made by the current management going over the head of the GM? If not, do you think it has happened?

WhiteSox5187
07-07-2009, 03:06 PM
I think the fact that the Executive of the Year Award is named after Roland Hemond shows all you need to know about how good of a GM he was. He built teams that nearly made the playoffs in 1972 and 1977 with about the same amount of resources as the Pirates have now. When he finally got resources to work with he put together a good team in 1981 that if it were not for the strike might have done something and brought us our first title of any kind since 1959 in 1983. Then as Lip alludes to there was collusion and the disaster of Hawk as GM.

TDog
07-07-2009, 03:34 PM
I think the fact that the Executive of the Year Award is named after Roland Hemond shows all you need to know about how good of a GM he was. He built teams that nearly made the playoffs in 1972 and 1977 with about the same amount of resources as the Pirates have now. When he finally got resources to work with he put together a good team in 1981 that if it were not for the strike might have done something and brought us our first title of any kind since 1959 in 1983. Then as Lip alludes to there was collusion and the disaster of Hawk as GM.

It is trivializing Hemond's achievements to say the team almost made the playoffs in 1972. The White Sox finished with the fourth-best record in baseball, second best in the league. Only the Pirates and Reds in the National League and the A's, who beat out the Sox in the West, had better records. And the A's had a great team. The Sox were that close to playing in the American League Championship Series against an inferior team from the East. Making "the playoffs" means much more in baseball than it does in other sports, and it meant much more then than it does now.

The 1977 season was a fluke. The team had no pitching. Steve Stone, who was on the team, would probably agree. The success of the hitting, which pretty much disappeared in August, was totally unexpected. By today's standards, it would have been a disappointing season. But 1972 was a team built on solid pitching and a strong heart of the lineup. If Melton hadn't gone down with a back injury or if Hemond hadn't traded Aparicio (the one gamble trade in those years that didn't work out), there would be one less World Championship celebrated in Oakland.

TomBradley72
07-07-2009, 03:38 PM
I think any argument that ANY GM in the last 90 years was better than KW is a false argument. KW did not have an open checkbook to work with when he built the ONLY world champion team since 1917. Much of the roster was built off of brilliant moves..from Iguchi being signed based on video, to Jenks being claimed off waivers to Garcia for Olivo/Reed, Contreras for Loaiza (sp?), AJ and Dye as free agents, etc. It was an incredibly creative and resourceful job of building a team. As creative and resourceful as any team Hemond ever built.

I'm as big a Roland Hemond fan as anyone, the 1985 White Sox we're a pretty good team, and Reinhorn's firing or Hemond was right up there with the myriad other assinine moves they made in the 80's/90's,

Roland might have been as good as KW, and probably was...and there has never been a classier man in the White Sox organization...but KW deserves the respect that goes with the World Series championship of 2005.

Lip Man 1
07-07-2009, 04:07 PM
Noneck:

To the best of my knowledge no one has ever gone over Kenny's head on a deal.

I think both JR and Eddie learned a lot in their time as owners and understand clearly that the best road to success was to hire good people and they stay the hell out of the way.

Lip

Lip Man 1
07-07-2009, 04:13 PM
Tom:

I don't think anyone, certainly not me, isn't showing Kenny respect.

But it's a fact he never had the issues and concerns that Hemond had to work against in his tenure...none, nada, nothing.

When Hemond took over the Sox had one foot in Milwaukee and the other in the grave. They were suffering the three worst seasons in franchise history, drew less than 500,000 for the season, played in a crumbling park and had little money even by the early 70 standards.

Even the expansion teams were in better shape because the "newness" factor hadn't worn off and they were drawing fans. Less than 24 months after he got to Chicago he (and Chuck Tanner) turned a 56 win team to an 87 win one and a near title.

That's impressive...to me as impressive as winning a title.

Both are good G.M's (as was Frank "Trader" Lane and Ed Short) but the deciding factor in my mind is what needed to be overcome and Roland had to overcome issues as big as the Grand Canyon.

Lip

TomBradley72
07-07-2009, 06:18 PM
Tom:

I don't think anyone, certainly not me, isn't showing Kenny respect.

But it's a fact he never had the issues and concerns that Hemond had to work against in his tenure...none, nada, nothing.

When Hemond took over the Sox had one foot in Milwaukee and the other in the grave. They were suffering the three worst seasons in franchise history, drew less than 500,000 for the season, played in a crumbling park and had little money even by the early 70 standards.

Even the expansion teams were in better shape because the "newness" factor hadn't worn off and they were drawing fans. Less than 24 months after he got to Chicago he (and Chuck Tanner) turned a 56 win team to an 87 win one and a near title.

That's impressive...to me as impressive as winning a title.

Both are good G.M's (as was Frank "Trader" Lane and Ed Short) but the deciding factor in my mind is what needed to be overcome and Roland had to overcome issues as big as the Grand Canyon.

Lip

You're right Lip...the term "respect" probably wasn't the best choice. The White Sox franchise from 1968-1980 was a story unto itself with potential moves to Milwaukee, Denver, Seattle, New Orleans....the move to Channel 32/UHF, the astro turf infield, etc.

Gremlin3
07-07-2009, 07:22 PM
Lip - Thanks for everything you've shared in this thread. I've been a sox fan my whole life, but wasn't around for the 70's. So as far as that era goes a lot of organizational things for me are unknown.

Brian26
07-08-2009, 10:45 PM
Here's what I know. First a short history lesson:

July 11, 1985 - The Sox blow a game and lose to the Orioles in Baltimore 7 - 6. The loss would have long term consequences for the franchise because it eventually led to the firing of longtime G.M. Roland Hemond. With two outs and the Sox leading 6 - 3, Bob James, the team closer hurt his right knee. In came journeyman relief pitcher Mike Stanton who was picked up out of the minors a few weeks before. Stanton didn’t get a man out and gave up a three run, game winning home run to Fred Lynn. Up in the broadcast booth, Sox announcers Don Drysdale and Ken “Hawk” Harrelson were openly questioning the organization if the ‘best’ they could do was Stanton. It planted the seed in the mind of ownership that a change was needed. That ‘change’ turned out to be Harrelson... named the new G.M. that off season. The rest as they say is history.

I wonder if this would have even been an issue if Hemond could have somehow pulled the trigger on that rumored Bill Caudill trade in '83. I won't even bring up the Buddy Bell trade that never happened. If Hemond could have picked up Caudill, who knows what would have happened in Game 4 of the '83 ALCS. On the grander scale, he never would have had to ship Vance Law to Montreal to get Bob James.

Lip Man 1
07-09-2009, 12:27 AM
Brian:

That same year (83) he also tried very hard to get the Twins Ron Davis- neither team would move them regardless of what he offered from what I was told. If you think about it to, if Jim Kern doesn't blow his elbow apart throwing a pitch in the second game of that season in Texas (I was sitting in the press box in Arlington and heard the crack all the way up there!) you wonder what might have happened. Kern was supposed to be the closer for the Sox that season. I don't think he ever threw another pitch in the big leagues again.

Interesting 'what if' though.

Lip

goodsy72
07-09-2009, 12:36 AM
I love Kenny. He's got some huge stones. I thought that is why Hemond was still hanging around, to help Kenny carry around his huge stones.:cool:
He's not all balls and no brains either. He's not afraid to do what his guts tell him and I respect that a lot. Plus he understands the first rule of planning. When the battle starts, and it's getting bloody, you have to take that master plan,through it out the window, and make it up on the fly. You can't see how things are going to play out, until they start to play out. You can think you know, but you don't.

TommyJohn
07-09-2009, 08:21 AM
Brian:

That same year (83) he also tried very hard to get the Twins Ron Davis- neither team would move them regardless of what he offered from what I was told. If you think about it to, if Jim Kern doesn't blow his elbow apart throwing a pitch in the second game of that season in Texas (I was sitting in the press box in Arlington and heard the crack all the way up there!) you wonder what might have happened. Kern was supposed to be the closer for the Sox that season. I don't think he ever threw another pitch in the big leagues again.

Interesting 'what if' though.

Lip

I still can see the highlight of Kern throwing that pitch and grabbing his elbow in pain.

JNS
07-09-2009, 09:00 AM
Without getting too, too much into the Hemond/KW debate, I would like to add that Hemond is one of the classiest guys in the game. Erudite, friendly, and highly skilled at getting something for almost nothing (and as has been pointed out, he had almost nothing to give).

He was at the game last (Wednesday) night. Hawk blathered about how "he's a nice man - one of the nicest in baseball." Hawk's usual BS about folks, including those he screwed, Roland being a prime example.

When Rollie was GM he would spend a lot of time in the stands at the old park. I spoke with him many times in the upper deck - he'd just be sitting there watching the game.

KW is fine GM, although I would consider his skin somewhat thin for a public figure - his ranting about Frank Thomas was out to lunch even if the Hurt deserved it - and his latest statement about low attendance was not well put - he wasn't blaming Sox fans but it sure could be construed that way.

At any rate, if Hawk hadn't been such a brown-noser with JR and weaseled his way into the GM gig - which was a complete and total disaster for the team, putting them back several seasons after it was all over - Roland Hemond might still be the GM and would have had the opportunity and the budget to create the long-term winner he deserved. I have no doubt he would have done it. KW has done it too, but with way too much drama centering around himself. I always thought it was some sort of passive-aggressive resentment going back to his truncated career in CF. I admire his frankness and guts, but sometimes I feel like shouting at him "Kenny - it isn't about YOU!"

TommyJohn
07-09-2009, 09:36 AM
Without getting too, too much into the Hemond/KW debate, I would like to add that Hemond is one of the classiest guys in the game. Erudite, friendly, and highly skilled at getting something for almost nothing (and as has been pointed out, he had almost nothing to give).

He was at the game last (Wednesday) night. Hawk blathered about how "he's a nice man - one of the nicest in baseball." Hawk's usual BS about folks, including those he screwed, Roland being a prime example.

When Rollie was GM he would spend a lot of time in the stands at the old park. I spoke with him many times in the upper deck - he'd just be sitting there watching the game.

KW is fine GM, although I would consider his skin somewhat thin for a public figure - his ranting about Frank Thomas was out to lunch even if the Hurt deserved it - and his latest statement about low attendance was not well put - he wasn't blaming Sox fans but it sure could be construed that way.

At any rate, if Hawk hadn't been such a brown-noser with JR and weaseled his way into the GM gig - which was a complete and total disaster for the team, putting them back several seasons after it was all over - Roland Hemond might still be the GM and would have had the opportunity and the budget to create the long-term winner he deserved. I have no doubt he would have done it. KW has done it too, but with way too much drama centering around himself. I always thought it was some sort of passive-aggressive resentment going back to his truncated career in CF. I admire his frankness and guts, but sometimes I feel like shouting at him "Kenny - it isn't about YOU!"Williams' revelation of Thomas' financial problems was absolutely low class.

Paulwny
07-09-2009, 12:33 PM
Lip,

Do you know how many and which deals were made by the current management going over the head of the GM? If not, do you think it has happened?

Noneck:

To the best of my knowledge no one has ever gone over Kenny's head on a deal.

I think both JR and Eddie learned a lot in their time as owners and understand clearly that the best road to success was to hire good people and they stay the hell out of the way.

Lip

Didn't JR negotiate Frank's " diminished ability" clause contract ?

dickallen15
07-09-2009, 12:41 PM
Brian:

That same year (83) he also tried very hard to get the Twins Ron Davis- neither team would move them regardless of what he offered from what I was told. If you think about it to, if Jim Kern doesn't blow his elbow apart throwing a pitch in the second game of that season in Texas (I was sitting in the press box in Arlington and heard the crack all the way up there!) you wonder what might have happened. Kern was supposed to be the closer for the Sox that season. I don't think he ever threw another pitch in the big leagues again.

Interesting 'what if' though.

Lip

I went to a White Sox spring training game back in 83 or 84 in Fort Lauderdale where they were playing the Yankees. My father, brother and I had some nice seats behind the Sox dugout and sure enough Roland Hemond sat next to us almost the entire game. He told us how they had a deal for Doug DeCinces back when they had their annual search for a thirdbaseman, but White Sox doctors looked at his back x-rays and advised against that. Soon after Eddie Einhorn traded Doug Drabek for a washed up Roy Smalley Jr.

Lip Man 1
07-09-2009, 05:16 PM
Paul:

That's true but I'm not sure how to categorize that because Thomas was coming back regardless... at question was the terms of his deal.

I took the original question to mean has ownership ever made a deal or canceled a deal (i.e. trade) without Kenny's consent or against his wishes.

Lip

LITTLE NELL
07-09-2009, 05:34 PM
Hemond did bring the Sox back from the worst 3 years in Sox history but I think Eddie Short did a hell of a job with the Sox teams from 61-67. Remember over 90 wins for 3 straight seasons and the great 67 pennant race. Great trades bringing on guys like Hanson,Ward, Wilhelm, Tommy John, Pizzarro, Cunningham, Skowron, Eddie Fisher and others.

JNS
07-09-2009, 06:03 PM
Hemond did bring the Sox back from the worst 3 years in Sox history but I think Eddie Short did a hell of a job with the Sox teams from 61-67. Remember over 90 wins for 3 straight seasons and the great 67 pennant race. Great trades bringing on guys like Hanson,Ward, Wilhelm, Tommy John, Pizzarro, Cunningham, Skowron, Eddie Fisher and others.

Great trades that brought us Hanson? Wasn't he in the deal that sent Looie to the Birds for Ron (a decent SS but a light hitter and no Looie) and Big Nick - a huge washout? Some of those deals worked out, but certainly not the Hanson/Nicholson/Aparicio trade. I always felt that if the Sox had kept Little Looie they might have taken it from the Yankees in 1964.

LITTLE NELL
07-09-2009, 06:22 PM
Great trades that brought us Hanson? Wasn't he in the deal that sent Looie to the Birds for Ron (a decent SS but a light hitter and no Looie) and Big Nick - a huge washout? Some of those deals worked out, but certainly not the Hanson/Nicholson/Aparicio trade. I always felt that if the Sox had kept Little Looie they might have taken it from the Yankees in 1964.
All I know is that trade help us win 94 games in 63, 98 in 64 and 95 in 65. After the 59 AL championship we won fewer games each year until the Aparicio/Al Smith trade to the Orioles for Hanson, Ward, Wilhelm and Big Nick. Nicholson regressed after 63 but the other 3 helped big time, Wilhelm was outstanding and his ERA was miniscule with the Sox. If Ward had'nt got hurt I think we would have won the AL in 67.

Lip Man 1
07-09-2009, 07:17 PM
JNS:

January 14, 1963 - It was the move that re-energized the franchise and led directly to back to back to back 90 or more win seasons in 1963, 1964 and 1965. Sox G. M. Ed Short traded shortstop Luis Aparicio and outfielder Al Smith to the Orioles for 3rd baseman Pete Ward, outfielder Dave Nicholson, shortstop Ron Hansen and relief pitcher Hoyt Wilhelm. Ward would be named Co-Rookie of the Year (with teammate Gary Peters) and would supply power for the next few seasons. Nicholson, who struck out far too much, still had 22 home runs and 70 RBI’s in 1963. Hansen would be one of the best defensive shortstops in the league and hit as many as twenty home runs in a season, at a time when shortstops simply didn’t do that. Wilhelm became the top relief pitcher in the 1960's. In his six years with the Sox he’d win 41 games and save 98 while producing some astonishingly low ERA’s considering he threw the knuckleball.
----------
What did Ed Short in was absolutely atrocious, boneheaded deals involving Al Weis, Tommy Agee, Bob Locker, Tommy McCraw, Don Buford which gutted the team of most of their speed and defense and he got back dung.


That's why he was fired before the 1970 season ended. He did very well for six years...I don't know what happened to him then.


Lip

LITTLE NELL
07-09-2009, 07:20 PM
JNS:

January 14, 1963 - It was the move that re-energized the franchise and led directly to back to back to back 90 or more win seasons in 1963, 1964 and 1965. Sox G. M. Ed Short traded shortstop Luis Aparicio and outfielder Al Smith to the Orioles for 3rd baseman Pete Ward, outfielder Dave Nicholson, shortstop Ron Hansen and relief pitcher Hoyt Wilhelm. Ward would be named Co-Rookie of the Year (with teammate Gary Peters) and would supply power for the next few seasons. Nicholson, who struck out far too much, still had 22 home runs and 70 RBI’s in 1963. Hansen would be one of the best defensive shortstops in the league and hit as many as twenty home runs in a season, at a time when shortstops simply didn’t do that. Wilhelm became the top relief pitcher in the 1960's. In his six years with the Sox he’d win 41 games and save 98 while producing some astonishingly low ERA’s considering he threw the knuckleball.
----------
What did Ed Short in was absolutely atrocious, boneheaded deals involving Al Weis, Tommy Agee, Bob Locker, Tommy McCraw, Don Buford which gutted the team of most of their speed and defense and he got back dung.


That's why he was fired before the 1970 season ended. He did very well for six years...I don't know what happened to him then.


Lip

Thanks Lip.
PS. Thats why I included the years only from 61-67.

Frater Perdurabo
07-09-2009, 07:28 PM
Yes, Hawk brown-nosed his way into JR's heart, and thus JR wanted Hawk as GM. But I don't think that was the big reason Hemond was kicked upstairs. I think Hemond was seen as "expendable" because he wasn't part of the Reinsdorf/Einhorn team; he pre-dated their purchase of the team. Reinsdorf didn't hire Hemond, so Hemond didn't owe complete loyalty to Reinsdorf, and therefore Reinsdorf was not loyal to Hemond, either.

Tragg
07-09-2009, 09:41 PM
What did Ed Short in was absolutely atrocious, boneheaded deals involving Al Weis, Tommy Agee, Bob Locker, Tommy McCraw, Don Buford which gutted the team of most of their speed and defense and he got back dung.


That's why he was fired before the 1970 season ended. He did very well for six years...I don't know what happened to him then.


Lip

The Agee trade was terrible - poorly conceived and poor in result. It really ruined that team.
Don't forget trading Gary Peters for Sid O'brien - O'Brien might have been the worst player ever to don a Sox uniform.
Buford really got good in Baltimore -we got Aparicio back for him, but Buford really started hitting.

JNS
07-09-2009, 10:25 PM
Yes, Hawk brown-nosed his way into JR's heart, and thus JR wanted Hawk as GM. But I don't think that was the big reason Hemond was kicked upstairs. I think Hemond was seen as "expendable" because he wasn't part of the Reinsdorf/Einhorn team; he pre-dated their purchase of the team. Reinsdorf didn't hire Hemond, so Hemond didn't owe complete loyalty to Reinsdorf, and therefore Reinsdorf was not loyal to Hemond, either.

Good points. It was one of the problems with the early, hubris-heavy Sox management in the early Eddie years.

Lately JR has owned up in a way - although not enough for me. And I recently saw Einhorn - he's an old man now and doesn't have the piss and vinegar he did in the early 80s. This was in the days when they were consciously dissing Veeck (who absconded to Wrigley) and endearing themselves to Sox fans everywhere by giving us Ribbie and Rhubarb, clothing the team in uniforms that looked like license plates, and threatening to move to Flora-duh. And talking about attracting a batter class of fan. Thanks guys.

I just wish Hemond had had the chance to build a team with a decent budget somewhere. I know he commands great respect within the game, but I think he could run rings around Billy Bean and some of the other ego-driven GMs out there.

JNS
07-09-2009, 10:30 PM
JNS:

January 14, 1963 - It was the move that re-energized the franchise and led directly to back to back to back 90 or more win seasons in 1963, 1964 and 1965. Sox G. M. Ed Short traded shortstop Luis Aparicio and outfielder Al Smith to the Orioles for 3rd baseman Pete Ward, outfielder Dave Nicholson, shortstop Ron Hansen and relief pitcher Hoyt Wilhelm. Ward would be named Co-Rookie of the Year (with teammate Gary Peters) and would supply power for the next few seasons. Nicholson, who struck out far too much, still had 22 home runs and 70 RBI’s in 1963. Hansen would be one of the best defensive shortstops in the league and hit as many as twenty home runs in a season, at a time when shortstops simply didn’t do that. Wilhelm became the top relief pitcher in the 1960's. In his six years with the Sox he’d win 41 games and save 98 while producing some astonishingly low ERA’s considering he threw the knuckleball.
----------
What did Ed Short in was absolutely atrocious, boneheaded deals involving Al Weis, Tommy Agee, Bob Locker, Tommy McCraw, Don Buford which gutted the team of most of their speed and defense and he got back dung.


That's why he was fired before the 1970 season ended. He did very well for six years...I don't know what happened to him then.


Lip


Good points - in retrospect it seems Short wasn't as awful as I thought he was. At the time - I was 10 in 1964 - I had a visceral hatred for Short. I don't remember why although I'm sure it had something to do with the Aparicio trade. After 1967 he almost drove the team to bankruptcy, but by that time I had given up on the Sox for a couple of years as I discovered girls and other teenage activities. I came back into the fold with the Tanner-Hemond regime in 1971.

JNS
07-09-2009, 10:32 PM
The Agee trade was terrible - poorly conceived and poor in result. It really ruined that team.
Don't forget trading Gary Peters for Sid O'brien - O'Brien might have been the worst player ever to don a Sox uniform.
Buford really got good in Baltimore -we got Aparicio back for him, but Buford really started hitting.

I remember a billboard on the outer drive by McCormick Place advertising the "Fighting White Sox." Showed a photo of Buford - by this time the Orioles center fielder - charging the mound after getting beaned by Bart Johnson. Dangerous Bart was getting ready to punch back!