PDA

View Full Version : *Official* 7-5-09 "A Dud" Postgame Thread


thomas35forever
07-05-2009, 05:02 PM
At least we went 5-2 on the road trip.

Brian26
07-05-2009, 05:02 PM
:darkcloud:

Whitesoxfan23
07-05-2009, 05:03 PM
If the Sox can't win series against garbage teams like the Royals, then the second half of the season scares the hell out of me.

LITTLE NELL
07-05-2009, 05:05 PM
Nice road trip but the last 2 leave a bad taste in my mouth, no killer instinct.

thomas35forever
07-05-2009, 05:05 PM
If the Sox can't win series against garbage teams like the Royals, then the second half of the season scares the hell out of me.
You're scared silly because of a split? If the Sox won just one game against them, then you'd probably have a case. Right now, I'm just mad we fell out of second.

twinsuck
07-05-2009, 05:06 PM
Whatever, at least Detroit lost.

Brian26
07-05-2009, 05:06 PM
:chickenlittle

ms620
07-05-2009, 05:07 PM
If the Sox can't win series against garbage teams like the Royals, then the second half of the season scares the hell out of me.

4 Game series are difficult to win. After they won the first 2, i was hoping they could split the last two. It didnt happen. They have been playing much better as of late. Do not overreact over the last couple games. I will take 5-2 roadtrips every time.

Whitesoxfan23
07-05-2009, 05:12 PM
You're scared silly because of a split? If the Sox won just one game against them, then you'd probably have a case. Right now, I'm just mad we fell out of second.


This isn't about just this 4 game series. Look at some of the games we lost at home. Get your head out of the clouds.

EMachine10
07-05-2009, 05:13 PM
I'd love to see a start from Poreda. Richard was solid for a few games, but has been less than stellar the past few times out.

Whitesoxfan23
07-05-2009, 05:14 PM
The fact is, the Sox have a very tough 2nd half schedule. Some of those terrible home series that they have had, will look good when we are playing the likes of the Red Sox and Yankees.

Whitesoxfan23
07-05-2009, 05:15 PM
I'd love to see a start from Poreda. Richard was solid for a few games, but has been less than stellar the past few times out.


And to think some people here were throwing a fit, when we tried to trade him for Peavy......

thomas35forever
07-05-2009, 05:17 PM
This isn't about just this 4 game series. Look at some of the games we lost at home. Get your head out of the clouds.
Yes, we've lost series at home, but that's when we sucked a long one. We just went 4-2 against the Dodgers and Cubs on our last homestand. Calm down.

Harry Potter
07-05-2009, 05:22 PM
I'm happy with the 5-2 road trip, looking forward to the day off tomorrow, and hopefully a nice brief homestand before our first trip to the Baggiedome

arKnaD7
07-05-2009, 05:24 PM
I'm not overly upset with the outcome like some people, the Sox had many balls hit hard right at people or just foul (Beckham and Getz I believe had foul ball homers) and the Royals blooped Sox pitchers to death. DJ also had some close pitches go against him to the batter before Olivo and to Olivo.

On a positive note, no more trips to KC this season, where we are traditionally sub-par.

twinsuck
07-05-2009, 05:27 PM
I'd love to see a start from Poreda. Richard was solid for a few games, but has been less than stellar the past few times out.
Give DJ a start! DJ for starter!!

Lip Man 1
07-05-2009, 05:29 PM
Regarding Clayton Richard. My sense is that when the Sox win a game that he starts I'm actually shocked. That should tell you all you need to know about what I think of him.

5-2 road trip is nice but like Nellie said you're left with wanting more. It was there for the taking.

Lip

EMachine10
07-05-2009, 05:32 PM
Give DJ a start! DJ for starter!!
The only thing is that DJ has done fairly well in his role. If one of our starters has gotten into trouble he has been pitching well in long relief.

WhiteSox1989
07-05-2009, 05:34 PM
Oh well, still a good road trip.

Get the tribe on Tuesday, boys!:bandance:

TomBradley72
07-05-2009, 05:50 PM
Disappointing end to the road trip...but all things considered...we picked up an awful lot of ground since the Friday loss against the Cubs.

We need to shore up the 5th starter role, and we need Thome to start having a bigger impact on the offense...other than that...I like the way we're playing.

kitekrazy
07-05-2009, 05:53 PM
You're scared silly because of a split? If the Sox won just one game against them, then you'd probably have a case. Right now, I'm just mad we fell out of second.

Not me. I think the Sox play better against those teams.

doublem23
07-05-2009, 05:53 PM
It's time to end the Clayton Richard SP experiment.

Back to 3rd place, but only 2 1/2 out.

EuroSox35
07-05-2009, 05:55 PM
As nice as the W7 was, these past 2 games are a nice wakeup call to the entire organization that things aren't just hunky dory. I'd think it's obvious but I've heard recent Sox *coughOzziecough* quotes saying 'this is what we expected out of spring training, our offense is fine, this team we built is coming together'.

Also, would it kill us to give Poreda a start? By now we basically know what we're going to get from Richard

SOXfnNlansing
07-05-2009, 06:43 PM
Well, if we win 2 of 3 vs the Jndians and lose 2 of 3 at the Twins, we'll still be slightly over .500 at the break. I think the Sox are going to go on another roll after the break.

johnnyg83
07-05-2009, 06:46 PM
It's time to end the Clayton Richard SP experiment.

Back to 3rd place, but only 2 1/2 out.

Clayton did not pitch badly today ... he was blooped and seeing-eyed to death ... the two doubles were the only really hard hits I can recall.

october23sp
07-05-2009, 06:48 PM
Now we just take care of the Indians.

twinsuck
07-05-2009, 06:53 PM
The only thing is that DJ has done fairly well in his role. If one of our starters has gotten into trouble he has been pitching well in long relief.
But who is always in trouble?? Mr. Richard over there... Why not just have DJ start instead of Clayton and Clayton can be the long reliever?

hawkjt
07-05-2009, 07:07 PM
Clay is not pitching that bad...I am not ready to pull him out of the rotation. He had some bloops today...and looked as good as Gavin last nite...KC is a blooper hitting team with some line drive guys also.
I still think it pays off to be patient with Clay...his arm is looking better than two weeks ago when he had a bit of dead arm syndrome...it is back.

Lip Man 1
07-05-2009, 07:12 PM
Johnny:

The fact that Richard hasn't been able to get into the 6th inning in six of his last seven starts says that he's not just getting "blooped" to death and that he is severely taxing the bullpen.

Lip

DirtySox
07-05-2009, 07:14 PM
Either way, Clayton is your best option aside from Poreda who is an unknown at this point. DJ does not have the stuff to start and go through the order multiple times.

hawkjt
07-05-2009, 07:17 PM
Johnny:

The fact that Richard hasn't been able to get into the 6th inning in six of his last seven starts says that he's not just getting "blooped" to death and that he is severely taxing the bullpen.

Lip


The bullpen barely worked the last week...they needed some work.

Noneck
07-05-2009, 07:19 PM
You have to feed on the bottom dwellers. The sharks are coming soon.

SoxSpeed22
07-05-2009, 07:42 PM
I just don't think Richard is getting it done. The problem is that I don't know what other options there are. I don't know if Poreda's ready. I'm sure that Kenny, Ozzie and Coop are discussing it.

johnnyg83
07-05-2009, 08:42 PM
Johnny:

The fact that Richard hasn't been able to get into the 6th inning in six of his last seven starts says that he's not just getting "blooped" to death and that he is severely taxing the bullpen.

Lip

No doubty.

Today ... however was exceptional ... even the Royals radio guys were talking about how the baseball gods were smiling on them.

LoveYourSuit
07-05-2009, 08:56 PM
Johnny:

The fact that Richard hasn't been able to get into the 6th inning in six of his last seven starts says that he's not just getting "blooped" to death and that he is severely taxing the bullpen.

Lip


You hit the nail square in the head there Lip.

Richard is a liablilty to the bullpen. You can't keep up with this. Lucky for the Sox and the bullpen, the pen has been well rested because of a ridiculous week of SP we had by the other 4 starters. But that's not normal to have guys pitched 7-8 innings every night. Middle relief is needed and Richard appears to be using up all those bullets. Not good.

I hope Kenny can still land another solid arm for the rotation. Colon or anyone from the minors including Poreda does not float my boat for a strong stretch run.

SCCWS
07-05-2009, 08:59 PM
I'd love to see a start from Poreda. Richard was solid for a few games, but has been less than stellar the past few times out.


Poreda is a long way from starting. He has basically thrown a fastball for 98% of his pitches. That works in relief when you go one inning. But a starter will get blown out when he only has 1 pitch. Poreda has a great fastball. He needs 2 more pitches.

DickAllen72
07-05-2009, 09:09 PM
Is Omar Vizquel still alive? Maybe KW can finally pick him up (he's wanted him for the past twenty years or so) and start him at SS with Ramirez moving back to 2B.

Alexei is a liability at SS and Getz is nothing special at 2B. The Sox need to shore up their horrid defense.

35th and Shields
07-05-2009, 09:12 PM
You hit the nail square in the head there Lip.

Richard is a liablilty to the bullpen. You can't keep up with this. Lucky for the Sox and the bullpen, the pen has been well rested because of a ridiculous week of SP we had by the other 4 starters. But that's not normal to have guys pitched 7-8 innings every night. Middle relief is needed and Richard appears to be using up all those bullets. Not good.

I hope Kenny can still land another solid arm for the rotation. Colon or anyone from the minors including Poreda does not float my boat for a strong stretch run.

I'm probably in the minority on this one but I'd like see Torres get a start or two. He got 93 K's in 94 innings, 1.15 WHIP and he's only given up three homeruns all year. He's 27 and pretty much at the make or break point in his career, give him a shot and who knows, maybe we catch lightning in a bottle.

As far as Richard, I'm sold as him being an answer long-term in the rotation but, as others have said, could be a great arm out of the bullpen.

Ranger
07-05-2009, 09:14 PM
You have to feed on the bottom dwellers. The sharks are coming soon.


They did. They just won 5 of 7 games against bad teams. Not to mention 6 out of 9 against the Dodgers, Cubs, and Reds. There is no need to overreact to two losses unless these two losses become 6 losses. Then you can be upset.

JB98
07-05-2009, 09:17 PM
The Sox are 6-5 when Richard starts. I'm not ready to pull him from the rotation, primarily because I don't think we have a better option for the No. 5 starter. I don't have high expectations from No. 5 starters anyway.

The Sox had a good road trip. Too bad they squandered an opportunity to make it a great trip. Still, they left home five games out of first. They are coming back to Chicago 2.5 behind. Overall, it was a favorable week.

LoveYourSuit
07-05-2009, 09:23 PM
They did. They just won 5 of 7 games against bad teams. Not to mention 6 out of 9 against the Dodgers, Cubs, and Reds. There is no need to overreact to two losses unless these two losses become 6 losses. Then you can be upset.


I think the mis-opportunity of Saturday's game is the one that hurt the most. You had a starter out there for KC who looked like a deer in headlights and he ended up rolling over to a victory for his record.

Sunday's game, it was Richard. I was not holding my breathe for this one.

Frater Perdurabo
07-05-2009, 09:24 PM
The Sox are 6-5 when Richard starts. I'm not ready to pull him from the rotation, primarily because I don't think we have a better option for the No. 5 starter. I don't have high expectations from No. 5 starters anyway.

Great post. I wouldn't yank Richard from the rotation just for the sake of doing so, but I would like to see KW acquire a top-notch starting pitcher and move everyone back a spot, which would put Richard in the pen and send Gobble to AAA.

LoveYourSuit
07-05-2009, 09:27 PM
Great post. I wouldn't yank Richard from the rotation just for the sake of doing so, but I would like to see KW acquire a top-notch starting pitcher and move everyone back a spot, which would put Richard in the pen and send Gobble to AAA.


Exactly.

Richard is not the answer but no one on the current roster or minors IMO is either.

Kenny needs to find someone in a trade.

JB98
07-05-2009, 09:31 PM
Great post. I wouldn't yank Richard from the rotation just for the sake of doing so, but I would like to see KW acquire a top-notch starting pitcher and move everyone back a spot, which would put Richard in the pen and send Gobble to AAA.

I see some potential in Richard. He's got a good fastball. His change is MUCH improved this year. He needs to continue to work on his offspeed repetoire and develop better command of his fastball. He's a better pitcher now than when he joined the Sox. I think he can develop into a serviceable back-of-the-rotation pitcher.

If KW adds somebody, great. If not, I think we are better off with Richard than with Poreda or Colon. I think Poreda's future is in short relief. As for Colon, well, IMO he's done. I'm glad the Sox managed to coax a few victories out of him this season before he got hurt.

As a fan base, we need to be a little more patient with the young players. Granted, we have a couple young players on this roster who have disappointed us. But I think Richard will reward us if we ride it out with him. He's never going to be an All-Star, but I think he can help us win.

Noneck
07-05-2009, 09:32 PM
They did. They just won 5 of 7 games against bad teams. Not to mention 6 out of 9 against the Dodgers, Cubs, and Reds. There is no need to overreact to two losses unless these two losses become 6 losses. Then you can be upset.
They have 3 more coming now. Thats my point.

sullythered
07-05-2009, 09:33 PM
Meh. We're 84 games in, and 2.5 games back. That means the great likelihood is that we'll be in this thing till the end. I think that's awesome during a year in which we have made MASSIVE strides in shoring up our future.

In my estimation, all things considered, this has been Kenny Williams' second best season to date.

Also, there are not many fifth starters way better than Clayton Richard, and the guy still has upside. Let him stay right where he is. Our top four guys can pick up what little slack they must.

SBSoxFan
07-05-2009, 09:34 PM
They have 3 more coming now. Thats my point.

3 more what coming? :scratch:

sullythered
07-05-2009, 09:35 PM
They have 3 more coming now. Thats my point.
And what does my future hold, oh great soothsayer???

cws05champ
07-05-2009, 09:37 PM
Johnny:

The fact that Richard hasn't been able to get into the 6th inning in six of his last seven starts says that he's not just getting "blooped" to death and that he is severely taxing the bullpen.

Lip
Actually he has gotten into the 6th twice in his last seven, but I see your point. But I think he is having a rough stretch, in his four starts before that he went 7 IP, 6 IP, 7 IP and 3.1 IP. John Danks in his rookie year had two 7 game stretches where he did not get into the 6th more than two times in each seven game stretch. I know we are in contention this year so it is harder to have patience with Richard.

What's up with Colon on the DL?

JB98
07-05-2009, 09:43 PM
Actually he has gotten into the 6th twice in his last seven, but I see your point. But I think he is having a rough stretch, in his four starts before that he went 7 IP, 6 IP, 7 IP and 3.1 IP. John Danks in his rookie year had two 7 game stretches where he did not get into the 6th more than two times in each seven game stretch. I know we are in contention this year so it is harder to have patience with Richard.

What's up with Colon on the DL?

For me, I don't think it is harder. I know KW always talks the talk about how we're "always going for it." But the Sox are very clearly in a transition phase right now. They are in the process of getting younger and more athletic, and at the same time, they are trying to compete for a division championship. That's hard to pull off, but thanks to a weak division, they are in the hunt.

I recognize the Sox are not built to win the World Series this year. That's fine, if they are able to develop some of the young players that are getting an opportunity right now. If they happen to wiggle into the playoffs this season, that's a bonus in my view. My expectations aren't real high, so I'm maybe a little more willing to show patience than some others who post here.

Noneck
07-05-2009, 09:48 PM
3 more what coming? :scratch:

3 more games vs. the bottom dwellers.

sullythered
07-05-2009, 09:48 PM
3 more games vs. the bottom dwellers.
Ok, gotcha. I thought you were saying 3 more losses.

Frater Perdurabo
07-05-2009, 09:50 PM
I see some potential in Richard. He's got a good fastball. His change is MUCH improved this year. He needs to continue to work on his offspeed repetoire and develop better command of his fastball. He's a better pitcher now than when he joined the Sox. I think he can develop into a serviceable back-of-the-rotation pitcher.

If KW adds somebody, great. If not, I think we are better off with Richard than with Poreda or Colon. I think Poreda's future is in short relief. As for Colon, well, IMO he's done. I'm glad the Sox managed to coax a few victories out of him this season before he got hurt.

As a fan base, we need to be a little more patient with the young players. Granted, we have a couple young players on this roster who have disappointed us. But I think Richard will reward us if we ride it out with him. He's never going to be an All-Star, but I think he can help us win.

I agree with you on all points AGAIN, JB. Maybe we need to have a BA/PK brawl for old time's sake. :tongue:

My only point is that if KW has an opportunity to get an "ace" type starter, and keep said starter for a few seasons (either because he's already under contract, like Peavy would have been, or can be extended, like Garcia in 2004) he should go for it, and not worry if Richard has to be demoted to the pen or if Richard has to be traded away to bring that ace back here.

Noneck
07-05-2009, 09:51 PM
And what does my future hold, oh great soothsayer???

I hope all things good, but I have no idea what you are talking about.

sullythered
07-05-2009, 09:53 PM
I hope all things good, but I have no idea what you are talking about.
See two posts above. I thought you were prognosticating, not stating fact.

Noneck
07-05-2009, 09:57 PM
See two posts above. I thought you were prognosticating, not stating fact.
Nah, Ill leave that stuff to Karnack the Magnificent.

Lip Man 1
07-05-2009, 10:02 PM
Mark Gonzales of the Chicago Tribune has a story tonight saying that Bartolo Colon may not factor into the Sox plans in the 2nd half. If true and with Richard struggling, does Kenny pull the trigger on a starter?

------------------

JB:

Regarding your point on patience. I don't have a complete answer to you on it. The Sox have had a bad record this decade of minor league players performing at the major league level so that doesn't exactly inspire confidence plus how do you factor in that this race towards a divisional title (all be it a mediocre record in all probability) is hindered every time Richard for example goes out, doesn't perform and loses a game.

How many losses does it take before something is done and remember these games can't be made up, no mulligans are permitted. As last year (and 1964) showed a championship can be won or lost via a single game.

If the Sox organization mantra from Kenny wasn't 'we'll compete for a championship every year' I'd see your point more (aka developing players) but the organization expects to win,. Ozzie says the big club isn't for learning on the job and the fans by and large, demand a winning, compeditive club no?

Don't know how to rectify both sides of the issue on this one.

Lip

JB98
07-05-2009, 10:02 PM
I agree with you on all points AGAIN, JB. Maybe we need to have a BA/PK brawl for old time's sake. :tongue:

My only point is that if KW has an opportunity to get an "ace" type starter, and keep said starter for a few seasons (either because he's already under contract, like Peavy would have been, or can be extended, like Garcia in 2004) he should go for it, and not worry if Richard has to be demoted to the pen or if Richard has to be traded away to bring that ace back here.

Without a doubt, KW should always been on the lookout for top-of-the-rotation pitching, as well as young arms that the Sox can develop into top-of-the-rotation material. With so many teams still in the race, though, I think it's going to be hard to make impact moves before July 31. We're about halfway through the season and 10 of the 14 teams in the AL probably still feel like they have a shot. Not a lot of "sellers" out there.

You know KW. He's going to try to make moves. But I'd be pleasantly surprised if he's able to add an "ace" type starter.

Oh, and I'm not going to brawl with you about BA anymore. Yes, I'm serious. I think the mods have had enough of that ****, and I don't blame them.

JB98
07-05-2009, 10:18 PM
Mark Gonzales of the Chicago Tribune has a story tonight saying that Bartolo Colon may not factor into the Sox plans in the 2nd half. If true and with Richard struggling, does Kenny pull the trigger on a starter?

------------------

JB:

Regarding your point on patience. I don't have a complete answer to you on it. The Sox have had a bad record this decade of minor league players performing at the major league level so that doesn't exactly inspire confidence plus how do you factor in that this race towards a divisional title (all be it a mediocre record in all probability) is hindered every time Richard for example goes out, doesn't perform and loses a game.

How many losses does it take before something is done and remember these games can't be made up, no mulligans are permitted. As last year (and 1964) showed a championship can be won or lost via a single game.

If the Sox organization mantra from Kenny wasn't 'we'll compete for a championship every year' I'd see your point more (aka developing players) but the organization expects to win,. Ozzie says the big club isn't for learning on the job and the fans by and large, demand a winning, compeditive club no?

Don't know how to rectify both sides of the issue on this one.

Lip

From my perspective, Lip, I'm not really buying Kenny's talk about competing for a championship every year. For one thing, that's not very realistic, unless you are just going to go out and buy top free agents all the time. You're going to have transition periods, and I think it's very clear that the Sox are going through one of those phases right now. Kenny doesn't want to use words like "rebuilding" or "retooling" because those are four-letter words in a major-media market like Chicago. And I don't think anybody wants to hear that four years removed from a world championship. But I think, quietly, the Sox are in fact rebuilding right now. Lots of young players in key roles. Look at our starting infield. Look at our starting rotation. Young players in three spots in both cases.

If the Sox weren't in a weak division, they'd be dead and gone and we'd be talking about which young players to build around and which young players to purge.

Here's the key point in my mind: We are NOT built to win a World Series this year. Could we win the division this season? Sure. Detroit and Minnesota aren't exactly elite, and the Sox can maybe beat them if Quentin comes back healthy and they catch a few breaks the second half.

You mentioned Gonzo's article. Colon doesn't figure in the plans in part because of health. But it's also true that for all Richard's inconsistencies, he's a better pitcher than Colon RIGHT NOW. There's no point in trotting Bartolo's corpse out there in the second half in the name of trying to win the division. I just don't see how Colon or some other veteran retread that we can acquire from the Orioles or whoever is going to help us.

We're better off seeing how Richard responds to pennant-race pressure in the second half. That will allow the Sox to make a better judgment about whether he's a part of our plan for turning this club into a LEGIT World Series contender, as opposed to the middle-of-the-road, maybe-good-enough-to-win-a-weak-division bunch we have now.

ChiSoxGirl
07-05-2009, 11:05 PM
They did. They just won 5 of 7 games against bad teams. Not to mention 6 out of 9 against the Dodgers, Cubs, and Reds. There is no need to overreact to two losses unless these two losses become 6 losses. Then you can be upset.

I listened to your postgame show this afternoon (like I usually do) and heard that guy, Brandon (?) call in complaining about the last two losses. I agree that he was totally crazy. As I wrote in my TBGR this afternoon, the Sox finished this seven game road trip 5-2, which is VERY GOOD. Yesterday's loss was obviously a lot harder to stomach than today's because the Sox all but gift-wrapped the game and handed it to the Royals. They could and should have finished 6-1 on this trip, but the fact is, they didn't. So many fans are so quick to "throw in the towel" on this team. You're right... it's two losses and teams lose games. If this turns into a seven game losing streak, then it negates this past week's winning streak and people have something to complain about. But for right now, the Sox are only 2 1/2 games out and have as good of a chance of winning the Central as the Tigers and Twins.

jabrch
07-05-2009, 11:28 PM
But for right now, the Sox are only 2 1/2 games out and have as good of a chance of winning the Central as the Tigers and Twins.


And that's the bottom line...

All sorts of **** could happen. It ranges from us finishing in 3rd place and not having a shot - to us winning it all. And that's a cool thing.

We have an improving farm system. We have young kids at the bigs who have promising futures. And our veterans (for the most part) are not so over the hill that we are stuck with any bad contracts in the near future.

We lost two games - one that we could have won - ****ing **** happens. That's the nature of a baseball season. It happens to every good team every season.

flo-B-flo
07-05-2009, 11:30 PM
...........5-2 road trip is nice but like Nellie said you're left with wanting more. It was there for the taking.

Lip you wanna be a good 162 game team....you gotta beat KC, Cle, the C---s etc at least 3 of 4 when you get a chance like that....I was happy with 2 of 3 against the ---s but, 3 of 3 was there well.... within the grasp.

jabrch
07-05-2009, 11:42 PM
you wanna be a good 162 game team....you gotta beat KC, Cle, the C---s etc at least 3 of 4 when you get a chance like that....I was happy with 2 of 3 against the ---s but, 3 of 3 was there well.... within the grasp.

No you don't "gotta". It's nice - but if you go .500 on the road, you should be a damn successful ball club. The Sox are 2 games over .500 on the road. That's damn good. Can you name all the other AL teams over .500 on the road? I'll give you a hint - they are the 3 teams with the highest payrolls in the AL. They are the two teams in the AL who have fanbases that travel/extend from coast to coast. They are three teams that were and still are favored (heavily) to make the postseason.

Winning today or yesterday would have been nice. But not "gotta win" games.

doublem23
07-05-2009, 11:49 PM
No you don't "gotta". It's nice - but if you go .500 on the road, you should be a damn successful ball club. The Sox are 2 games over .500 on the road. That's damn good. Can you name all the other AL teams over .500 on the road? I'll give you a hint - they are the 3 teams with the highest payrolls in the AL. They are the two teams in the AL who have fanbases that travel/extend from coast to coast. They are three teams that were and still are favored (heavily) to make the postseason.

Winning today or yesterday would have been nice. But not "gotta win" games.

2 games over .500 on the road doesn't cut it as much when you're 0 games over .500 at home.

jabrch
07-05-2009, 11:50 PM
2 games over .500 on the road doesn't cut it as much when you're 0 games over .500 at home.

Do you think this team will stay .500 at home the rest of the year?

And do you think this was a "gotta win" game?

Noneck
07-06-2009, 01:22 AM
But for right now, the Sox are only 2 1/2 games out and have as good of a chance of winning the Central as the Tigers and Twins.

Still in the hunt? Yes

As good of a chance? No
Being 3 down in the loss column to the Tigers does not equate to as good of a chance of winning the Central as the Tigers.

ChiSoxGirl
07-06-2009, 01:26 AM
Still in the hunt? Yes

As good of a chance? No
Being 3 down in the loss column to the Tigers does not equate to as good of a chance of winning the Central as the Tigers.

I wasn't going mathematical in my post. My point was that three teams are within a few games of one another and the top of the division, and that each has as good of a chance as the other of taking the lead.

Noneck
07-06-2009, 01:31 AM
I wasn't going mathematical in my post. My point was that three teams are within a few games of one another and the top of the division, and that each has as good of a chance as the other of taking the lead.

Not really a math thing. When you are 3 games down in the loss column and have 2 teams ahead of you, you really don't have as good a chance as rest. A chance? Sure

doublem23
07-06-2009, 01:36 AM
Not really a math thing. When you are 3 games down in the loss column and have 2 teams ahead of you, you really don't have as good a chance as rest. A chance? Sure

That's taking out a lot of factors, primarly how well the Sox have recently played, from June 1-today, the Sox and Twins have tied for the best record in the division. Let's not pretend like the Tigers and Twins are a pair of world beaters, with 3 games seperating 3 teams and over 3 months left to play, the division is essentially a 3-way coin flip.

doublem23
07-06-2009, 01:40 AM
Do you think this team will stay .500 at home the rest of the year?

And do you think this was a "gotta win" game?

I wish I could say I do, but I really don't know, the last time the Sox played really good baseball they came home and promptly fell flat on their face, so maybe they will float around .500 all year. For whatever reason, they've not been very good at home this year, you can blame the weather, some bad breaks, good pitching, etc., but maybe this team, which is hitting a lot fewer HR than years past, just isn't tailored to win consistently in its own park. I mean, when you have a stadium whose design practically begs for HR, doesn't it seem stupid, at least on some logical level, to purposely try and build a team that doesn't hit so many HR?

Still to early to tell, I do think judging what the Sox are capable of by what they did in April and May is misleading, even with just a few roster moves this is a very different team, one that can be very potent if they put it all together.

october23sp
07-06-2009, 01:44 AM
Does anyone know why Clayton Richard is the probable starter on Thursday vs the Indians?

jabrch
07-06-2009, 01:48 AM
doesn't it seem stupid, at least on some logical level, to purposely try and build a team that doesn't hit so many HR?

How is this team not built to hit HRs?

We have + power at C, 1B, DH, RF and LF (when TCQ is healthy). We have average power at SS. We have **** for power in CF and 2B, and no idea what we have at 3B. I'm not certain, for all the talk, that KW and OG don't have the same sort of power they have had in the past. Why are you concluding this team is purposely built to hit fewer HRs? Every guy in your lineup can't/shouldn't be a slugger (or any other particular type of hitter) no matter what your park is shaped like.

Noneck
07-06-2009, 01:52 AM
That's taking out a lot of factors, primarly how well the Sox have recently played, from June 1-today, the Sox and Twins have tied for the best record in the division. Let's not pretend like the Tigers and Twins are a pair of world beaters, with 3 games seperating 3 teams and over 3 months left to play, the division is essentially a 3-way coin flip.


3 games up is still 3 games up, The Twins are same as Sox in the loss column so I'll admit they are even. That's a flip but not the Tigers. The Sox got a shot but no they don't have as good of shot as the Tigers.

doublem23
07-06-2009, 02:00 AM
How is this team not built to hit HRs?

We have + power at C, 1B, DH, RF and LF (when TCQ is healthy). We have average power at SS. We have **** for power in CF and 2B, and no idea what we have at 3B. I'm not certain, for all the talk, that KW and OG don't have the same sort of power they have had in the past. Why are you concluding this team is purposely built to hit fewer HRs? Every guy in your lineup can't/shouldn't be a slugger (or any other particular type of hitter) no matter what your park is shaped like.

That may or may not be true, but the fact is the Sox are hitting HR at a slower rate than last year and the team's slugging percentage is way down (almost 30 points from 2008). If the Sox keep up their current pace, they won't even hit 200. Where were you this off-season when both KW and Ozzie stated their goal was to build a more "balanced" (AKA, fewer HR) team?

If you want to argue the merits of HR production vs. old-fashioned run manufacturing, that's fine, but the fact here is that the 2009 Sox are hitting fewer HR than the 2008 Sox. The other fact that their winning percentage at home is 150 points lower than it was last year, I think, is at least a little related to this.

doublem23
07-06-2009, 02:00 AM
3 games up is still 3 games up, The Twins are same as Sox in the loss column so I'll admit they are even. That's a flip but not the Tigers. The Sox got a shot but no they don't have as good of shot as the Tigers.

I really think you're missing the forest for the trees.

Noneck
07-06-2009, 02:03 AM
I really think you're missing the forest for the trees.

Yea, I better get my rose colored glasses so I can see better.

35th and Shields
07-06-2009, 02:07 AM
3 games up is still 3 games up, The Twins are same as Sox in the loss column so I'll admit they are even. That's a flip but not the Tigers. The Sox got a shot but no they don't have as good of shot as the Tigers.

We get it, mathematically they have a better shot. On the other hand, 3 games over that long of a period is fairly useless.

CWSpalehoseCWS
07-06-2009, 02:09 AM
I don't know about anyone else, but I'd really like to see someone else other than Richard get a start next time a round. See how Poreda does. I don't see how Richard can be a solid starter when he's been as inconsistent as he has been these past few starts.

Anyway, it would be nice to see 2/3 from both the Indians and Twins before the break.

jabrch
07-06-2009, 02:12 AM
That may or may not be true, but the fact is the Sox are hitting HR at a slower rate than last year and the team's slugging percentage is way down (almost 30 points from 2008). If the Sox keep up their current pace, they won't even hit 200.

What does that have to do with your statement that we are built to hit fewer HRs? If we have TCQ in the lineup, hitting his usual, how many HRs would we be off of the July 6th pace in 2008? I'm guessing not many.

Where were you this off-season when both KW and Ozzie stated their goal was to build a more "balanced" (AKA, fewer HR) team?

Same place as every year Guillen says that. Not paying a word of attention to what management says and watching what they do. Tell me how this team is BUILT to hit fewer HRs? The plan in construction was that Fields would have the same power as Crede, Alexei would have the same power as Alexei, I guess Swisher's 24 HRs were to be replaced by the handful that our CFs would combine for and whomever played 2B would equal the power from OC. I don't see how you can say this team was deliberately built to not hit HRs similarly to the 2008 team - with only Swisher's 24 replaced by about a dozen combined between whomever plays CF?



If you want to argue the merits of HR production vs. old-fashioned run manufacturing, that's fine,

I wasn't doing that. I was saying that no team wins if they are a one-trick pony. I don't think that's debateable.


but the fact here is that the 2009 Sox are hitting fewer HR than the 2008 Sox.

I'm not arguing this fact. I'm telling you that it is irrelevant to your statement that Williams BUILT this team with the intent of hitting fewer HRs. This team is as much a HR hitting team as any team he built in the past 4 years.

The other fact that their winning percentage at home is 150 points lower than it was last year, I think, is at least a little related to this.

To how the team was built? Or to what the team is doing on the field. Two different things. If you want to talk about what has happened from OD to July 6, that's one story. But it has little to do with how the team was built.

Please show me how this team was built to hit fewer HRs. At what positions did Williams expect fewer HRs than he was getting in the past?

BigP50
07-06-2009, 02:26 AM
very good road trip, 5-2.

the two games we lost the Tigers also lost both days we did so we are only 2.5 back comin' home.

doublem23
07-06-2009, 02:49 AM
Yea, I better get my rose colored glasses so I can see better.

Same old shtick, god forbid someone be remotely optimistic about this team's chances, or else let's break out the "rose-colored glasses," line. Look, all I'm saying is I'm not quivering at the thought of making up 3 games on a team that since June 1 has allowed 30 more runs than they've scored and 1/2 game on another team that has 3 starters with ERAs above 4.50.

No, the odds aren't in their favor, but it's not like some sort of mathematical improbability, either. On July 5 last year, 2 eventual division champs were not in 1st place. This would not be an unheard of accomplishment.

Noneck
07-06-2009, 09:19 AM
No, the odds aren't in their favor, but it's not like some sort of mathematical improbability, either. On July 5 last year, 2 eventual division champs were not in 1st place. This would not be an unheard of accomplishment.

That is what I basically said in my original post on this subject.

LoveYourSuit
07-06-2009, 11:21 AM
Yea, I better get my rose colored glasses so I can see better.

In defense of Doub, hed did point out the following:

2 games over .500 on the road doesn't cut it as much when you're 0 games over .500 at home.

But I do agree with you Noneck. The Tigers are on the driver seat here with 3 games ahead on the loss column. Those are 3 games we can't make up. If they get insanely hot, there is nothing we can do. But I highly doubt they will with that bullpen.