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RedPinStripes
06-03-2002, 10:50 PM
Well they sure taught him a lesson!

FanOf14
06-03-2002, 10:53 PM
I didn't think they'd have the marbles to bench him for an entire game.

RedPinStripes
06-03-2002, 11:05 PM
Originally posted by FanOf14
I didn't think they'd have the marbles to bench him for an entire game.

Especially since he already started bitching on the radio. Manuel don't have the balls to bench anyone who will piss and moan.

:firejerry

Jerry_Manuel
06-03-2002, 11:17 PM
If they want to bring him in late for his "D", that's fine with me. Don't let him near the plate, and everything will be grand.

CubKilla
06-04-2002, 12:03 AM
Now you just knew JM couldn't sit the Choice all night. A player of Royce's caliber demands playing time . PH in the 8th and, shocker, made an out.

PaleHoseGeorge
06-04-2002, 12:09 AM
Originally posted by CubKilla
Now you just knew JM couldn't sit the Choice all night. A player of Royce's caliber demands playing time . PH in the 8th and, shocker, made an out.

Actually, Manuel brought him in as defensive replacement in the top of the eighth. Sweeney reached on an infield single because Royce had to range into the hole, then threw off-line to Durham covering second, pulling him off the bag. No error--of course.

Farmer and Rooney both called it an error, but their vote doesn't count. I'm guessing Hawk said something like, "That was a tough chance, DJ."

And DJ would say, "Yes, yes, please don't get mad at me Hawk!"

:gulp:

voodoochile
06-04-2002, 12:09 AM
Defensive replacement sounds just fine with me...

ESPN is reporting that this is an indefinite move and that Jose may be moved to SS in the next few days...

Wow, imagine that...

CubKilla
06-04-2002, 12:18 AM
Originally posted by PaleHoseGeorge


Actually, Manuel brought him in as defensive replacement in the top of the eighth. Sweeney reached on an infield single because Royce had to range into the hole, then threw off-line to Durham covering second, pulling him off the bag. No error--of course.

Farmer and Rooney both called it an error, but their vote doesn't count. I'm guessing Hawk said something like, "That was a tough chance, DJ."

And DJ would say, "Yes, yes, please don't get mad at me Hawk!"

:gulp:

Sorry about that PHG. Was at work and turned on the game and heard it was Choice's first at-bat. It was the 8th. Never thought JM and KW would bench the Choice. Then I check the boards and find out Choice has been benched longterm. This is a total 180 from how I felt after yesterday. Garland looked good again and the Sox won. YEAH BABY!

kevingrt
06-04-2002, 08:09 AM
That first post didn't have to be in teal...

DrWatson27
06-04-2002, 08:26 AM
"Graffanino started at shortstop after Manuel benched Royce Clayton indefinitely. Clayton is batting .195"

That's from the ESPN game notes recap. YES!!!!!! :D: :) :smile:

delben91
06-04-2002, 09:08 AM
From this morning's SunTimes:

Royce, sit yo *** down (http://www.suntimes.com/output/sox/cst-spt-doug04.html)

My favorite part of the article is down at the bottom, Royce says,

"In this day and age--I don't understand the evolution of baseball--but for some reason, a shortstop, regardless of how good he is, he has to be hitting .300 at every given opportunity. It's just the way it is.''

I dunno Royce, how about you get to .200 first.

Viva Magglio
06-04-2002, 09:28 AM
Royce sounds like Felicia Middlebrooks when she was going through contract squabbles with WBBM.

What Royce does not realize is that for every out he makes for us in the field, he makes multiple outs in the batter's box.

34 Inch Stick
06-04-2002, 09:33 AM
Royce's problem (among many) is that he probably sat back at the end of last year and thought "I had a great fielding year and did o.k. with the bat." He didn't place any of the blame for the horrible start on himself and didn't care that he padded his stats after the season was over.

Now we will see the pain in the ass that the Cardinals/Rangers found Royce to be. If the Sox win the division he will be the one guy bitching in the corner of the locker room.

steff
06-04-2002, 09:36 AM
OMG.. I hate this guy with a passion - as anyone who's been in the park with me can tell you. I've been wanting him gone since the day he got here. He's a complete waste of space, oxygen, and sunflower seeds.
By the way.. nice to see Crede make minor league player of the week. Are we the only friggin people keeping an eye on this guy?? WTH is management doing..?
And while I'm on this bitch wagon... games probably going to get rained out tonight.. dammit!

PaleHoseGeorge
06-04-2002, 10:31 AM
Originally posted by delben91
From this morning's SunTimes:

Royce, sit yo *** down (http://www.suntimes.com/output/sox/cst-spt-doug04.html)

My favorite part of the article is down at the bottom, Royce says,

"In this day and age--I don't understand the evolution of baseball--but for some reason, a shortstop, regardless of how good he is, he has to be hitting .300 at every given opportunity. It's just the way it is.''

I dunno Royce, how about you get to .200 first.

Maybe here's the answer to the question we've been asking for months.

Why has Manuel kept hitting Clayton in the #9 slot? Because Clayton thinks he's entitled to it.

Apparently Royce sees no issues with hitting .200. In fact, if baseball wasn't strangely different today, Royce could simply prevent losing games with his superior defense. But don't take my word for it. Read the article and see what Clayton has been quoted as saying. It's almost surreal to hear it.

So Manuel leaves Clayton in the line up, even to take at-bats late in games we're losing. Manuel makes no changes when Royce fails to address game situations with situational hitting. He just keeps running Royce out there because THAT'S WHAT ROYCE EXPECTS.

Even more telling, Manuel never criticizes Royce. To the contrary, he ignores the troubles noted in the prior paragraph and goes out of his way to praise Royce for his defense. Thus, Manuel is toeing a line that will keep his shortstop happy. In essence Manuel has been saying, "Your bat isn't important; just keep winning games for us with your defense."

How do we know this? Go back and read the quotes from Royce. Clayton's not upset with his own performance; he's upset that Manuel has changed his expectations. Unbelievable.

Now that Royce is on the bench, what can we expect from him? How will Manuel react?

Ask the fans in St. Louis and Texas for clues.

Iwritecode
06-04-2002, 10:46 AM
Valentin acknowledges his shortcomings at short. He made 36 errors there in 2000; Clayton made seven last season.

"Even with all the errors I made playing shortstop, we were still winning,'' Valentin said. "So we'll take our chances and do that and see if things can go the right way.''

This is my favorite part. The only thing they need now is a quote from Royce that says "Even though I didn't make (get charged with) many errors at short we still weren't winning."

FarmerAndy
06-04-2002, 11:42 AM
If, as a result of this move, Crede comes up to play 3B full time within' the next week or two, I'll shut up and be fine with it. I am, however, not happy to have Valentin back at short. I know that most Sox fans think Valentin can walk on water, but his glove makes me cringe.

I'm not gonna make any more arguments for Clayton. I've always like him because I'm a more of a pitching/defense minded fan. But I do realize that the White Sox are an offensive minded club. I finally see that Clayton isn't a good fit here, because what's the point in having a great defensive shortstop who can't hit when: 1. the rest of the infield sucks defensively 2. the pitching staff isn't all that great 3. the guys who are supposed to be your big hitters can't get the job done either? When you take those things into account, the better defense at short really doesn't help us now. I agree that Jerry has to do whatever it takes to get the offense going, because offense is the only way this team can win.

So, I've dropped my support for Clayton. (You can all cheer now.) However, I am not in support of Valentin either. (Now you can boo me again.) I want Crede at 3B, I think everybody would agree with that, but I'd keep Graffy at short for now. He's been better at the plate than Valentin, and isn't the whole point of all of this to get the offense going?

voodoochile
06-04-2002, 12:18 PM
Originally posted by FarmerAndy
If, as a result of this move, Crede comes up to play 3B full time within' the next week or two, I'll shut up and be fine with it. I am, however, not happy to have Valentin back at short. I know that most Sox fans think Valentin can walk on water, but his glove makes me cringe.

I'm not gonna make any more arguments for Clayton. I've always like him because I'm a more of a pitching/defense minded fan. But I do realize that the White Sox are an offensive minded club. I finally see that Clayton isn't a good fit here, because what's the point in having a great defensive shortstop who can't hit when: 1. the rest of the infield sucks defensively 2. the pitching staff isn't all that great 3. the guys who are supposed to be your big hitters can't get the job done either? When you take those things into account, the better defense at short really doesn't help us now. I agree that Jerry has to do whatever it takes to get the offense going, because offense is the only way this team can win.

So, I've dropped my support for Clayton. (You can all cheer now.) However, I am not in support of Valentin either. (Now you can boo me again.) I want Crede at 3B, I think everybody would agree with that, but I'd keep Graffy at short for now. He's been better at the plate than Valentin, and isn't the whole point of all of this to get the offense going?

Graffy doesn't have the range to play SS everyday. He is also too valuable as a BU infielder, IMO. Bring up Crede. It should take Valentin just a couple of games to get back in that SS groove and hopefully the lessons he leared about throwing the ball will stay with him at SS. Sox would need Jose's leadership at SS if Crede gets the call. A left side of Crede and Graff would be trouble, IMO.

Jerry_Manuel
06-04-2002, 12:20 PM
Originally posted by voodoochile
Graffy doesn't have the range to play SS everyday. He is also too valuable as a BU infielder, IMO.

That's what they were saying on the Score this morning. They don't believe that Graffy will be a full time starter.

voodoochile
06-04-2002, 12:33 PM
Originally posted by Jerry_Manuel


That's what they were saying on the Score this morning. They don't believe that Graffy will be a full time starter.

Well, that's good...

Still, if they bring up Crede, they better give him an extended look. If they yo-yo this kid as a motivational ploy, it is not going to do good things for his confidence.

One can only hope Royce keeps talking. KW doesn't like that crap (ask Parque). Maybe "the choice" will talk his way to the waiver wire...

Daver
06-04-2002, 12:35 PM
Originally posted by voodoochile


Well, that's good...

Still, if they bring up Crede, they better give him an extended look. If they yo-yo this kid as a motivational ploy, it is not going to do good things for his confidence.

One can only hope Royce keeps talking. KW doesn't like that crap (ask Parque). Maybe "the choice" will talk his way to the waiver wire...

Once they bring him up it will have to be for good,cause I beleive he is out of options.

FarmerAndy
06-04-2002, 12:51 PM
Originally posted by voodoochile

Sox would need Jose's leadership at SS if Crede gets the call.

What does that mean anyway? People always bring that up when talking about Jose. I don't dislike Jose. I think he plays hard and is a good leader in the clubhouse, I really do appreciate what he's done for the club in the last 3 years. However, none of that makes him a good shortstop. So, I just don't get it when somebody says that we "need his leadership at shortstop". Besides, the reason he's being put there is because the team is trying to put together a lineup that can hit, not because they needed to improve the position defensively.

It looks like Jose's gonna be at short, so I hope he does well. But if I have to watch balls roll through his legs, I don't want to hear about leadership at shortstop.

I agree that Graffy probably wouldn't be the best everyday shortstop, but isn't the point of these changes to improve the offense? Valentin's bat has been less than impressive this year. Clayton was benched because he wasn't hitting, so how can you argue that Valentin should be there instead of Graffy just because Valentin is more experienced at the position? Graffy's bat is better right now. I can see your point about Tony being a great BU IF. We do sacrafice our best bench player if Graffy started full time, but right now we need to spark the offense any way we can.

voodoochile
06-04-2002, 01:20 PM
Originally posted by FarmerAndy


What does that mean anyway? People always bring that up when talking about Jose. I don't dislike Jose. I think he plays hard and is a good leader in the clubhouse, I really do appreciate what he's done for the club in the last 3 years. However, none of that makes him a good shortstop. So, I just don't get it when somebody says that we "need his leadership at shortstop". Besides, the reason he's being put there is because the team is trying to put together a lineup that can hit, not because they needed to improve the position defensively.

It looks like Jose's gonna be at short, so I hope he does well. But if I have to watch balls roll through his legs, I don't want to hear about leadership at shortstop.

I agree that Graffy probably wouldn't be the best everyday shortstop, but isn't the point of these changes to improve the offense? Valentin's bat has been less than impressive this year. Clayton was benched because he wasn't hitting, so how can you argue that Valentin should be there instead of Graffy just because Valentin is more experienced at the position? Graffy's bat is better right now. I can see your point about Tony being a great BU IF. We do sacrafice our best bench player if Graffy started full time, but right now we need to spark the offense any way we can.

Sorry, maybe experience would have been a better work. Jose has lots of PT and Graff does not. That experience will make it easier for Crede to adapt sooner, IMO.

FarmerAndy
06-04-2002, 01:24 PM
Originally posted by voodoochile


Sorry, maybe experience would have been a better work. Jose has lots of PT and Graff does not. That experience will make it easier for Crede to adapt sooner, IMO.

Point taken. I understand what you are saying, but I don't think Crede is gonna need much help. He's been ready for a long time.

voodoochile
06-04-2002, 01:27 PM
Originally posted by FarmerAndy


Point taken. I understand what you are saying, but I don't think Crede is gonna need much help. He's been ready for a long time.

Hope you are right, and to be honest, Jose can play all the positions that Graff can, so he would make a fine BU infielder also. Maybe JM is considering a platoon at SS - Graff V LHP, Manos V RHP, Royce as understudy to the batboy...

PaleHoseGeorge
06-04-2002, 01:38 PM
For the record, I'm not sure Valentin is the answer at SS either.

Valentin's bat has cooled off and I found it very interesting that Manuel had Jose in the #9 slot last night. I think that was a tacit admission by the Sox manager that he needs to get Valentin's bat started again. Putting Manos' bat directly in front of the top of the lineup is the easiest place to get it reignited.

Having said that, Valentin is clearly a better option than Graffanino. Graf has a history of making costly errors whenever he gets extended playing time, going all the way back to the 2000 season.

Clayton is delusional--and his own words are hanging him. He definitely deserves an extended stay on the bench while the offense sorts itself out.

:ass
"I'm delusional, too--if it will help my lousy ratings!"

Jerry_Manuel
06-04-2002, 02:00 PM
Originally posted by daver
Once they bring him up it will have to be for good,cause I beleive he is out of options.

Correct, Daver.

Originally posted by PaleHoseGeorge
For the record, I'm not sure Valentin is the answer at SS either.

Valentin's bat has cooled off and I found it very interesting that Manuel had Jose in the #9 slot last night. I think that was a tacit admission by the Sox manager that he needs to get Valentin's bat started again. Putting Manos' bat directly in front of the top of the lineup is the easiest place to get it reignited.

Clayton is delusional--and his own words are hanging him. He definitely deserves an extended stay on the bench while the offense sorts itself out.


This team isn't going anywhere, so it doesn't matter if Jose is the answer or not. Clayton's an *******, his comments make him look stupider than he already is.

doublem23
06-04-2002, 02:13 PM
Originally posted by PaleHoseGeorge
Valentin's bat has cooled off and I found it very interesting that Manuel had Jose in the #9 slot last night.

Manos was batting 8th, Roward was 9th... But still, point taken.

Jerry_Manuel
06-04-2002, 02:17 PM
Originally posted by doublem23
Manos was batting 8th, Roward was 9th... But still, point taken.

Young punk! :smile:

PaleHoseGeorge
06-04-2002, 02:56 PM
Originally posted by doublem23
Manos was batting 8th, Roward was 9th... But still, point taken.

Whoops... I stand corrected.

Maybe Manuel is tacitly admitting he needs to get Rowand's bat started? :D:

ode to veeck
06-04-2002, 03:23 PM
Clayton is delusional--and his own words are hanging him. He definitely deserves an extended stay on the bench while the offense sorts itself out.

Like the extended stay Parque got in the bullpen after he bitched about not getting called up soomer--I sure hope not!!

RedPinStripes
06-04-2002, 06:10 PM
Originally posted by kevingrt
That first post didn't have to be in teal...

Sure did.