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pilotsox
06-28-2009, 10:29 PM
Someone help me out. Today's IF fly confused the hell out of me. I can see the play going two different ways:

1) Infield fly rule is NOT employed, and the runners advance as if it were just a single for Jermaine. Wise scores and Jermaine is on first, and the bases stay loaded for Thome with one out.

2) Infield fly rule IS employed, and the runners do NOT advance. Jermaine goes to the bench and Wise stays on third. Two outs, no runs scored on the play, Thome at the dish.

But what they seem to do is a mix? Jermaine out AND runners advance? I'm not trying to debate whether the IF fly was proper in that situation, where the catch isn't a routine one. I just didn't think the runners could advance on an IF fly. I figured that rule makes it function equal to as if the batter had just popped out.

Anyone want to explain this?

Brian26
06-28-2009, 10:31 PM
When the infield fly is called, runners can advance at their own risk. Wise scored fairly easily, but the runners on 1st and 2nd couldn't advance safely so they stayed put.

chisoxfanatic
06-28-2009, 10:32 PM
You might want to check out the post game thread. We had a pretty sizable discussion about this towards the middle of the thread.

pilotsox
06-28-2009, 10:33 PM
When the infield fly is called, runners can advance at their own risk. Wise scored fairly easily, but the runners on 1st and 2nd couldn't advance safely so they stayed put.

I see. I did not know that. I kinda assumed it was a dead ball situation, like a hit batsman.

voodoochile
06-28-2009, 10:36 PM
Someone help me out. Today's IF fly confused the hell out of me. I can see the play going two different ways:

1) Infield fly rule is NOT employed, and the runners advance as if it were just a single for Jermaine. Wise scores and Jermaine is on first, and the bases stay loaded for Thome with one out.

2) Infield fly rule IS employed, and the runners do NOT advance. Jermaine goes to the bench and Wise stays on third. Two outs, no runs scored on the play, Thome at the dish.

But what they seem to do is a mix? Jermaine out AND runners advance? I'm not trying to debate whether the IF fly was proper in that situation, where the catch isn't a routine one. I just didn't think the runners could advance on an IF fly. I figured that rule makes it function equal to as if the batter had just popped out.

Anyone want to explain this?

IF fly called means batter is out.

Then the runners are subject to the same rules they are anytime a ball is hit in the air. If it's caught they need to tag up to advance. If it's dropped there is no force because the batter is out and thus no one has to advance because no one is coming up behind them to take first base thus forcing everyone to move up one. So if the ball is caught the runners can choose to tag and go or if it's dropped, they can run as they choose. It was dropped, Wise was halfway he scored easily.

34rancher
06-28-2009, 10:53 PM
Again, let's say not invoked, I think runner at third is out easily and still 2 outs.

FielderJones
06-28-2009, 10:55 PM
MLB Rule 2.00 (http://mlb.mlb.com/mlb/downloads/y2008/official_rules/02_definition_of_terms.pdf) tells you all you want to know and more.

An INFIELD FLY is a fair fly ball (not including a line drive nor an attempted bunt) which can be caught by an infielder with ordinary effort, when first and second, or first, second and third bases are occupied, before two are out. The pitcher, catcher and any outfielder who stations himself in the infield on the play shall be considered infielders for the purpose of this rule.

When it seems apparent that a batted ball will be an Infield Fly, the umpire shall immediately declare “Infield Fly” for the benefit of the runners. If the ball is near the baselines, the umpire shall declare “Infield Fly, if Fair.”

The ball is alive and runners may advance at the risk of the ball being caught, or retouch and advance after the ball is touched, the same as on any fly ball. If the hit becomes a foul ball, it is treated the same as any foul.

If a declared Infield Fly is allowed to fall untouched to the ground, and bounces foul before passing first or third base, it is a foul ball. If a declared Infield Fly falls untouched to the ground outside the baseline, and bounces fair before passing first or third base, it is an Infield Fly.

Rule 2.00 (Infield Fly) Comment: On the infield fly rule the umpire is to rule whether the ball could ordinarily have been handled by an infielder—not by some arbitrary limitation such as the grass, or the base lines. The umpire must rule also that a ball is an infield fly, even if handled by an outfielder, if, in the umpire’s judgment, the ball could have been as easily handled by an infielder. The infield fly is in no sense to be considered an appeal play. The umpire’s judgment must govern, and the decision should be made immediately.

When an infield fly rule is called, runners may advance at their own risk. If on an infield fly rule, the infielder intentionally drops a fair ball, the ball remains in play despite the provisions of Rule 6.05(l). The infield fly rule takes precedence.


The umpire made the judgement while the infielders were tracking the ball. Before the wind got hold of the ball, the infielders could have caught it with normal effort.

voodoochile
06-28-2009, 11:02 PM
Again, let's say not invoked, I think runner at third is out easily and still 2 outs.

Who is covering the bag, the pitcher? Both the SS and 3B are on the OF grass.

Just for the sake of discussion. I agreed with the call and still do...

chisoxfanatic
06-28-2009, 11:36 PM
Again, let's say not invoked, I think runner at third is out easily and still 2 outs.
Not necessarily, especially considering Scott Podsednik was the one at 2nd. He could've easily made it to 3rd with his speed.

HawkDJ
06-28-2009, 11:47 PM
Not necessarily, especially considering Scott Podsednik was the one at 2nd. He could've easily made it to 3rd with his speed.

Then shouldn't he have been on 3rd if he can run at his own risk?

jamokes
06-29-2009, 04:40 AM
Hawk and DJ thought it was a bad call.........IMO the ump made the right call, Ozzie gave just a token argument.

daveeym
06-29-2009, 07:03 AM
Hawk and DJ thought it was a bad call.........IMO the ump made the right call, Ozzie gave just a token argument.By the next inning you could tell hawk was waffling though. He didn't come out and say it but started calling it a tough call.

bigdommer
06-29-2009, 08:09 AM
Side note: there was an infield fly rule called in a Nationals (on defense) game a couple of years ago. The sitiuation was similar, but the guy on 3rd (Christian Guzman, I think) didn't know it was IFFR, and when the ball was dropped, he started to trot home. The ball was thrown to the plate, and the catcher tagged the plate, and the runner stopped running. The catcher thought it was an out, and tossed it back to the pitcher, and the runner scored because there was not a force out. All of the Nats players were arguing and screaming at the umpires. Frank Robinson had to come out and yell at his players and tell them to quit arguing the call. It was probably the only time I have ever seen a manager come on the field to support the umpires in an argument with his own players.

aryzner
06-29-2009, 11:00 AM
It was interesting to see this in the game because a similar situation actually happened to my softball team recently. We had the bases loaded and nobody out and our batter hit a popup into the infield behind the pitcher. There was confusion as to who would catch it and nobody on the other team ended up catching it. Somehow we had our runner on 3rd score and the man on 2nd moved up to 3rd. The other team tried to appeal it by throwing the ball back to 2nd but they hadn't caught the ball. Luckily, our umpire was right on that and called the play correctly and stated basically everything that people in this thread have been saying about runners advancing at their own risk.

Edit: And yes the umpire did signal and say "Infield Fly! Batter is out!" when the ball was hit by the way.

Bob G
06-29-2009, 11:33 AM
I was at the game and had a perfect view of the entire play.

I was surprised the umpire called the infield fly rule since it was going to be a difficult catch for either the SS or the 3rd basement to make. The location of the ball along with the conditions at the time (wind and sun) created a lot of problems for the left side fielders.

TDog
06-29-2009, 11:47 AM
The infield fly rule is there to protect the offense, not penalize it.

I didn't see the play and don't want to get into whether the infield fly should have been called in that specific instance, but the infield fly rule is there to prevent infielders from intentionally letting a ball drop so they easily get two or three outs.

The batter is automatically out. The batter is no longer entitled to first. Hence there is no forceout. Hence the runners don't have worry about racing to the next base if a ball drops while being close enough to the base to get back if it is caught.

Something similar happened to the White Sox last year, where runners advanced to second and third on a missed infield fly. I think Konerko was the runner who went into third. I also think the Sox got lucky on that play because I don't believe the runners were aware there was no longer a force.

The umpire doesn't have a lot of discretion with the infield fly rule. It is just a matter of the ball being hit fair and high enough so that an infielder can get to the ball. Whether the infielder ends up catching it is irrelevant because the rule protects baserunners in the event the ball is not caught.

If a hitter bunts a fair popup with runners on first and second or the bases loaded, the offense has a different problem. The infield fly rule does not apply on bunts. A smart defense lets the bunt drop and ends the threat.