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View Full Version : Move Beckham to SS and Alexei to 2B


EuroSox35
06-27-2009, 07:04 PM
I've been saying this for a while, not just because of today. Alexei dazzled at 2B last year and makes way too many mistakes at SS, with bobbles, bad throws, etc. Meanwhile a kid from AA is trying to facing major league pitching for the first time and he has to learn a new position too?

I like Chris Getz, but come on, .230 deserves the bench, the other guys are better than him and don't deserve to be played out of position because of him. The Sox screwed up at 3B. Maybe you put Fields there and try to let him prove himself. Maybe you try Nix and see if the defense is any worse than it is now, but the situation we have right now is my least favorite scenario.

Am I the only one who feels like this?

Sockinchisox
06-27-2009, 07:09 PM
No sir, you are definitely not alone, I'm tired of it as well.

JB98
06-27-2009, 07:10 PM
Need a third option for me. I'd move Ramirez to CF, Beckham to SS, Fields to 3B. Continue with the Getz/Nix platoon at 2B.

But I voted to move Ramirez to 2B, because I'd rather that than keep him at SS.

ShoelessJoeS
06-27-2009, 07:12 PM
As I mentioned in the Gameday thread, getting a solid third basemen, or maybe even an average one, would solve some problems this team has. Gordon has been ok at best at third, and Alexei has been pretty bad all year. Moving them to their natural positions would be better for them, especially Bacon, IMO.

The only trouble is, who could we get to play third? What would we have to give up?

BleacherBandit
06-27-2009, 07:13 PM
Meh, although I hate all of the errors Beckham and Alexei are creating as a result of playing at unatural positions (although most would say that Alexei IS at his natural position), I'm more concerned with the offense. I don't trust Fields, who would be inserted into 3B if this was to happen, and have more faith that Beckham will turn into a consistant hitter. This team doesn't need anybody or anything dragging it down offensively.

central44
06-27-2009, 07:39 PM
I always advocated moving Alexei to CF becuase, even though he was bad there to start 08, I think he could grow into it with time.

Now though, its a problem, because Quentin should eventually be back. When he gets back, what do you do? You can't bench Pods because he's been the best player, so what happens to Alexei?

I guess you could move him to 2B, but I remember hearing that Beckham projects to more of a MLB 2B than SS because of his size and defense. I'd much rather let Beckham grow into that role (if that IS the case) than Alexei.

I think that if i'm KW, i'm looking to trade Alexei. I know that might sound crazy, but he's 28 years old, doesn't have much more of a ceiling, still has reasonably good value and can probably net a very good return. But we'll see, I don't know for sure exactly what his value is.

Zakath
06-27-2009, 07:46 PM
Right now, I'd go Beckham to SS, Fields to 3B, Ramirez to bench.

DSpivack
06-27-2009, 07:46 PM
I don't know if I like Fields better than Getz, that's the problem there.

Defensively, Getz at 2B>Alexei at SS>Fields at 3B. And there isn't a big difference offensively between Getz and Fields.

WhiteSox5187
06-27-2009, 07:48 PM
I like the idea but I'm not so sure I want to give up on Getz right now. What's going on with Alexei is mind boggling, he certainly has the talent, but he is starting to remind me of a skinnier version of Juan Uribe.

Viva Medias B's
06-27-2009, 07:51 PM
I voted agree, but if Alexei keeps playing the field with his head up his you-know-where, I say give Alexei a week in Charlotte. Had we lost that game today because of the miscues he made, I think Ozzie would have been so steamed that he would have put Alexei on the first plane to Charlotte himself.

Daver
06-27-2009, 07:54 PM
Need a third option for me. I'd move Ramirez to CF, Beckham to SS, Fields to 3B. Continue with the Getz/Nix platoon at 2B.

But I voted to move Ramirez to 2B, because I'd rather that than keep him at SS.

He can't keep his head in the game while playing the infield, and you want him in the outfield, where a mental lapse can cost you multiple bases?

I can't agree with that in any way, Dewayne Wise sucks as an outfielder, but he at least can stay focused on the game.

WhiteSox5187
06-27-2009, 07:58 PM
He can't keep his head in the game while playing the infield, and you want him in the outfield, where a mental lapse can cost you multiple bases?

I can't agree with that in any way, Dewayne Wise sucks as an outfielder, but he at least can stay focused on the game.

Do you think it's lack of focus or just lack of experience at this level that leads to Alexei's miscues?

JB98
06-27-2009, 07:59 PM
He can't keep his head in the game while playing the infield, and you want him in the outfield, where a mental lapse can cost you multiple bases?

I can't agree with that in any way, Dewayne Wise sucks as an outfielder, but he at least can stay focused on the game.

Shortstop is the most important defensive position on the field. Alexei is hurting the team there.

I have a hard time believing he would hurt us more in CF (or at 2B) than he does at SS.

I'm open-minded about moving him to 2B, as I mentioned in my previous post.

Daver
06-27-2009, 08:06 PM
Shortstop is the most important defensive position on the field.


No it isn't, and it isn't even close.

BigP50
06-27-2009, 08:08 PM
Only if we could trade for a 3B, but Getz has been fine, leave it until we get a 3B

KyWhiSoxFan
06-27-2009, 08:10 PM
You're asking a rookie a year removed from college to play out of position. I think that's a tough thing to ask of him. I think Ozzie should move Alexei to 2nd and Beckham to SS. Alexei is no great shakes at SS. He played much better at 2nd.

JB98
06-27-2009, 08:13 PM
No it isn't, and it isn't even close.

Yes, catcher is important too.

Shortstop is a vital defensive position, and Ramirez is giving away plenty of extra outs and extra bases with his poor defense. What he's doing isn't nearly good enough, and I'm ready for a change.

russ99
06-27-2009, 08:17 PM
Alexei has been pretty bad all year. Moving them to their natural positions would be better for them, especially Bacon, IMO.


Two bad games and Alexei's been bad all year? The entire year as a whole, Alexei has been pretty solid, and numbers-wise on par with what Cabrera gave us at the position. His throws are iffy at time, but has very good range to both sides.

And SS is Alexei's natural position, the one he played in Cuba. He played zero games at 2B before coming to the Sox.

Keep them as is. Alexei's going through a bit of a soph slump, but should still be an elite level SS.

Besides, moving him around would be the worst thing for him. Let him work around the problems and develop at his best position. Ozzie's called him out for his level of effort at times, so maybe that gets him going.

SCCWS
06-27-2009, 08:17 PM
Alexei dazzled at 2B last year and makes way too many mistakes at SS, with bobbles, bad throws, etc.


Maybe he dazzled you but he finished 8th out of 9 of the top defensive 2nd basemen. He is now 8 out of 9 of the top defensive shortstops. Last year fans said his problems were playing out of position. maybe he should move to 3rd.

kkappelk
06-27-2009, 08:59 PM
OP...you need to add another option to this poll, because I vote for Ramirez to the outfield. Trade JD before the deadline and get something for him.

ShoelessJoeS
06-27-2009, 09:00 PM
Two bad games and Alexei's been bad all year? The entire year as a whole, Alexei has been pretty solid, and numbers-wise on par with what Cabrera gave us at the position. His throws are iffy at time, but has very good range to both sides.

And SS is Alexei's natural position, the one he played in Cuba. He played zero games at 2B before coming to the Sox.

Keep them as is. Alexei's going through a bit of a soph slump, but should still be an elite level SS.

Besides, moving him around would be the worst thing for him. Let him work around the problems and develop at his best position. Ozzie's called him out for his level of effort at times, so maybe that gets him going.Yes, these last two games have been bad for Alexei. And I think I remember Buck saying during the game that he's had 4 or 5 errors in as many games. Even with this bad stretch, he has not been anything special at SS. And it's not just his errors, it's the metal lapses and overall lack of baseball instinct that hinders his play as well. Take the Freel play in today's game for instance. Alexei had him stuck in no man's land, but instead of charging him, he just glanced a couple times and threw to first. Freel wound up scoring on the play.

Just because he played SS in Cuba, doesn't mean that is his natural position, or where he should be playing. Look at the way he played last year at 2B, and you still believe he makes a better SS? Last year he made only 11 errors at 2B. So far this year has committed 10 errors at SS, in just over half as many games! A lot of his success may have been attributed to having veterans at 1B and SS last year, but I think most can agree that Alexei makes a much better second basemen than shortstop. And to me, it really isn't even close.

Daver
06-27-2009, 09:16 PM
Yes, catcher is important too.

Shortstop is a vital defensive position, and Ramirez is giving away plenty of extra outs and extra bases with his poor defense. What he's doing isn't nearly good enough, and I'm ready for a change.

This whole team is not exactly built to be even a good defensive team, and no one on the roster is going to bring a whole lot more defensively to the position.

JB98
06-27-2009, 09:18 PM
This whole team is not exactly built to be even a good defensive team, and no one on the roster is going to bring a whole lot more defensively to the position.

I think Beckham would get better by playing the position, though.

Ramirez is soon to turn 28 years old (we think). Can we expect him to get much better?

balke
06-27-2009, 09:28 PM
If it brings Fields back onto the field, no. If we get A-rod, Figgins, or an actual good 3Bman who is offensively and defensively an upgrade over what we have, then definitely try it.


I don't really wanna get a rental at 3B though. So, if Beckham is a future 3Bman leave him there. He's only going to get better, and that's exciting cause he's already pretty good. Just don't sit back as a fan and run off at the mouth about what you see from a game with errors though. I think both will get better defensively than they are right now. Time will tell though. Honestly though he was just called up to play in the majors and probably won't be playing his best defense at 3rd for like 3 years.

BadBobbyJenks
06-27-2009, 09:29 PM
We are just going to hope that Alexei finds it because Id rather see Beckham at 2nd and more at bats from Fields.

Sox
06-27-2009, 09:35 PM
He can't keep his head in the game while playing the infield, and you want him in the outfield, where a mental lapse can cost you multiple bases?

I can't agree with that in any way, Dewayne Wise sucks as an outfielder, but he at least can stay focused on the game.

I can't say that I agree with your comment about DeWayne Wise. I think that he played pretty well today.

Daver
06-27-2009, 09:35 PM
I think Beckham would get better by playing the position, though.

Ramirez is soon to turn 28 years old (we think). Can we expect him to get much better?

Beckham can also get better by playing third.

Getting your head back into the game is a matter of coaching, were it up to me I would bench him for a few games and tell him straight out that mental errors are not acceptable. At 28 he has roughly eight years of being in his prime, he remains a valuable asset if he can be coached.

wassagstdu
06-27-2009, 09:36 PM
I say Beckham to ss, Alexei to another team for a 3B. He makes plays at ss that nobody could make, including Aparicio, but he will never be in the same league with Aparicio -- or Ozzie, or Uribe. Aparicio was the best all around, Ozzie was a lot smarter player than Alexei, and of the four, Uribe is the one I want the ball hit to with the season on the line.

Daver
06-27-2009, 09:37 PM
I can't say that I agree with your comment about DeWayne Wise. I think that he played pretty well today.

Some days the sun even shines on a dogs ass, it does not change the fact that Dewayne Wise spent ten years in the minors for a reason, he's not a good ballplayer.

cnw8052
06-27-2009, 09:39 PM
I'd rather have Juan Uribe back again.

I like the idea but I'm not so sure I want to give up on Getz right now. What's going on with Alexei is mind boggling, he certainly has the talent, but he is starting to remind me of a skinnier version of Juan Uribe.

Sox
06-27-2009, 09:41 PM
Some days the sun even shines on a dogs ass, it does not change the fact that Dewayne Wise spent ten years in the minors for a reason, he's not a good ballplayer.

I didn't know that DeWayne had spent the last 10 years in the minors. And yes even a blind squirrel eventually finds a nut and today was his lucky day.:wink:

hawkjt
06-27-2009, 09:52 PM
Maybe Alexei could sit tomorrow and put Nix in at SS...just give him a chance to reflect..or on Monday.
He is slumping at the plate and in the field right now..but he will snap out of it.
It is his first year of playing ss at the MLB level also ,ya know?
There were a ton of tough chances between ss and third today.
Gordo clearly shielded him on the one error...I think the combo of two inexperienced guys on the same side of the infield is causing some communication issues.
Suck it up...they will get better.

Save McCuddy's
06-27-2009, 10:14 PM
Need a third option for me. I'd move Ramirez to CF, Beckham to SS, Fields to 3B. Continue with the Getz/Nix platoon at 2B.

But I voted to move Ramirez to 2B, because I'd rather that than keep him at SS.

Agreed. Let's find out if Alexei can find a defensive position that suits him -- and we definitely need help in center. Too bad pods can't play second.

thedudeabides
06-27-2009, 10:40 PM
Two bad games and Alexei's been bad all year? The entire year as a whole, Alexei has been pretty solid, and numbers-wise on par with what Cabrera gave us at the position. His throws are iffy at time, but has very good range to both sides.

And SS is Alexei's natural position, the one he played in Cuba. He played zero games at 2B before coming to the Sox.

Keep them as is. Alexei's going through a bit of a soph slump, but should still be an elite level SS.

Besides, moving him around would be the worst thing for him. Let him work around the problems and develop at his best position. Ozzie's called him out for his level of effort at times, so maybe that gets him going.

That's not true. He played 2b in the Cuban league, at times, and even played 2b for the Cuban national team, the last time he played in the Pan Am games he played 2b. I have read reports he even played CF more than he played SS. It's pretty common for Cuban players to play several positions through the course of the year. Some scouts think that CF is his best position. He has the range and the arm.

I would like to see him stay at SS, for now. He has the talent to be an excellent SS. Most of the errors he's making are from lack of focus. If that doesn't change, he's going to have a hard time staying on the field anywhere.

twinsuck
06-27-2009, 10:45 PM
I think Alexei deserves to be benched, not Chris. Move Bacon to SS and put Josh at 3rd. I'm not suggesting this for the rest of the year or anything, maybe just a couple games.

skobabe8
06-27-2009, 11:19 PM
Beckham to short fan club.

ajismyhero
06-27-2009, 11:31 PM
I can't get over the hate that everyone has for Josh Fields on this board. His numbers, offensively, have been BETTER than Getz's, and his number of errors is right on par with Alexei and Beckham and yet you all think that we should play it out with Alexei, Beckham and Getz. He's like the whipping boy of 2010. For no othe reason except we have to hate on somebody.

Brian26
06-27-2009, 11:42 PM
I can't get over the hate that everyone has for Josh Fields on this board. His numbers, offensively, have been BETTER than Getz's, and his number of errors is right on par with Alexei and Beckham and yet you all think that we should play it out with Alexei, Beckham and Getz. He's like the whipping boy of 2010. For no othe reason except we have to hate on somebody.

There are a lot of people to hate on this team. That hate can be spread out.

If there's any love for Getz over Fields, it may be due to him being a more versatile player than Fields.

spongyfungy
06-28-2009, 12:02 AM
Bacon to SS. We can't afford to have 2 players deficient at their position in the infield. I think the future for Alexei is in the outfield anyway. He's got a good enough arm to do the job. Dye has great in the outfield but to get more years out of him, he'll have to start DH'ing in the future. next year I'd like to see TCQ, Pods, TCM in the outfield, with Dye DH'ing, assuming Thome is gone.

jdm2662
06-28-2009, 12:04 AM
I'd rather have Juan Uribe back again.

Juan Uribe made did the same mental **** Ramierz is currently doing.

Ramierz needs to be benched for a few games. These mental errors are killing me (and the team...).

BullpenBoys
06-28-2009, 12:05 AM
Lets trade Alexei & Jose to the Brewers for JJ Hardy and put him at 3rd, Beck at ss. The Brewers have a stud ss in the minors thats ready. They are going to move him soon because of the Prince and Braun contracts. Hardy is solid with the glove and his power would improve playing at the cell and if Quentin comes back this would be a fun team to watch.

DSpivack
06-28-2009, 12:54 AM
Lets trade Alexei & Jose to the Brewers for JJ Hardy and put him at 3rd, Beck at ss. The Brewers have a stud ss in the minors thats ready. They are going to move him soon because of the Prince and Braun contracts. Hardy is solid with the glove and his power would improve playing at the cell and if Quentin comes back this would be a fun team to watch.

:rolleyes:

jabrch
06-28-2009, 01:04 AM
We are going to have a bad left side of the IF defensively this year no matter what. It's a far cry from Crede and Uribe - but it is what it is.

Putting Fields back at 3B would make that problem worse. Nix doesn't hit enough to justify playing every day any more than any of these other guys do. I don't think we have any really great options. I'm willing to accept that if this is a situation where we are investing in a future, we will see improvements, and the coaches will stick with the plan. What I would hate to see is a daily lineup change and not letting these guys learn from the crap we are watching.

TDog
06-28-2009, 02:22 AM
Any option that has Josh Fields playing regularly at third base is a losing option.

It isn't about Fiields' hitting, although I posted my dislike for Fields' offense during his rookie season before Fields bashing became fashionable. If Fields could play third third base, Gordon Beckham would still be in Charlotte.

4 points
06-28-2009, 05:50 AM
I've been saying this for a while, not just because of today. Alexei dazzled at 2B last year and makes way too many mistakes at SS, with bobbles, bad throws, etc. Meanwhile a kid from AA is trying to facing major league pitching for the first time and he has to learn a new position too?

I like Chris Getz, but come on, .230 deserves the bench, the other guys are better than him and don't deserve to be played out of position because of him. The Sox screwed up at 3B. Maybe you put Fields there and try to let him prove himself. Maybe you try Nix and see if the defense is any worse than it is now, but the situation we have right now is my least favorite scenario.

Am I the only one who feels like this?

Beckham simply does not have the range to play SS on a full time basis. IMO, he will be fine at 3rd, once he becomes comfortable with the throws to 1st.

balke
06-28-2009, 09:35 AM
I can't get over the hate that everyone has for Josh Fields on this board. His numbers, offensively, have been BETTER than Getz's, and his number of errors is right on par with Alexei and Beckham and yet you all think that we should play it out with Alexei, Beckham and Getz. He's like the whipping boy of 2010. For no othe reason except we have to hate on somebody.

Its not hate, its just facts. Josh is an okay bench player. He has power and can play 1B and 3B.

The problem is not only does he have as many errors as the other two players, he doesn't really make up for it with good defense. He has had plenty of time to grow at the position, and he's still not getting much better.

Plus, he ran off at the mouth when competition was brought in. This is good because it shows confidence, but bad because he is hitting so poorly and really can't justify or make claim that he deserves to be at 3B at all.

I wanna see him succeed more than anyone. If he could hit .270-.280 we wouldn't "hate" him so much. He doesn't hit for avg. though, and his power is gone. Plus, he's one of the near automatic outs on this team against good pitching.

I think he has the talent to be better, but he's gotta show it. With Brian Anderson's weak bat at CF, and no Chase Utley at 2B... this team cannot afford to piddle around with 3Bman who both cannot play gold glove Defense, and can't hit .250.

MikeKreevich
06-28-2009, 09:58 AM
The reason Alexei is playing shortstop is because he is our best defensive shortstop. I think Ozzie knows a little about the position. Ozzie pencils him in as shortstop because he is our best. The only way Beckham supplants him is if they make a trade. That said, Alexei needs to play better. If I was his coach, he would take off his sunglasses.

comiskey2000
06-28-2009, 11:13 AM
I've been saying this for a while, not just because of today. Alexei dazzled at 2B last year and makes way too many mistakes at SS, with bobbles, bad throws, etc. Meanwhile a kid from AA is trying to facing major league pitching for the first time and he has to learn a new position too?

I like Chris Getz, but come on, .230 deserves the bench, the other guys are better than him and don't deserve to be played out of position because of him. The Sox screwed up at 3B. Maybe you put Fields there and try to let him prove himself. Maybe you try Nix and see if the defense is any worse than it is now, but the situation we have right now is my least favorite scenario.

Am I the only one who feels like this?

The fact of the matter is that Alexei is a bad defender, as confirmed by any viable fielding metric available. He was terrible last year, too, but managed to get some oooh's and aaah's because he made a couple nice plays. He's got absolutely no range, so moving him isn't going to make the problem go away.

Dibbs
06-28-2009, 11:19 AM
The fact of the matter is that Alexei is a bad defender, as confirmed by any viable fielding metric available. He was terrible last year, too, but managed to get some oooh's and aaah's because he made a couple nice plays. He's got absolutely no range, so moving him isn't going to make the problem go away.

Moving him takes the errant throw problem away. We were spoiled with Uribe. He is very underrated defensively.

TomBradley72
06-28-2009, 11:30 AM
The move proposed in this thread amounts to replacing Getz with Fields in the batting order (which is tempting, Fields has hit .245 over the past 30 days vs. Getx' .208), but I think Beckham's long term position is second base...so I would keep Alexei at SS, and move Beckham to 2nd if I did anything.

Alexei still show flashes of brilliance at SS...brings a ton of range (exemplified yesterday) for shallow OF hits, and the diving backhand/throw from the knees play he made yesterday was one of the better plays I've ever seen a White Sox SS make. I'm willing to be more patient with him, if he gets his head together, he could be one of the best SS in the league with some nice offensive production.

voodoochile
06-28-2009, 11:33 AM
I'd leave it alone. Yeah, Ramirez has some mental lapses, but he's a gamer. He's also 4th in the majors in terms of innings played by a SS and 5th in total chances. Yeah, he costs some runs and has had a couple of bad lapses recently, but he also saves runs by covering as much ground as any other SS in the league. I figure the mental stuff will decline as he matures and gets used to the speed of ML hitters.

I remember one year the Sox had a guy who had 30+ errors at SS. He also made a ton of spectacular plays and walloped a bunch of HR. Just like Manos, I hope they leave the missile alone...

voodoochile
06-28-2009, 11:45 AM
The fact of the matter is that Alexei is a bad defender, as confirmed by any viable fielding metric available. He was terrible last year, too, but managed to get some oooh's and aaah's because he made a couple nice plays. He's got absolutely no range, so moving him isn't going to make the problem go away.

According to Harball Times, TCM is 3rd in getting to baseballs outside of his zone with 30 behind only Bartlett (TB) and Scutaro (TOR). TCM is also 5th in Zone Rating.

I don't know who you've been watching play the game, but Ramirez has sick range some of the best in the Majors. He has mental lapses, but to say he has no range is simply silly...

Tragg
06-28-2009, 02:10 PM
The other issue is that we have one plus defender on the team and he is in CF; so we'd be getting rid of that essentially for a Fields over Anderson offensive upgrade. Not sure that's terribly signficant.
I say that and Ozzie has decided that plus defender should be benched because of the offense provided by Dewayne Wise, so CF defense isn't a factor anyway I guess.

PhillipsBubba
06-28-2009, 06:58 PM
I think that is an excellent idea, although I'd want them to get a good 3rd baseman to complete the move.

Might there be one available before the deadline???

comiskey2000
06-28-2009, 07:16 PM
According to Harball Times, TCM is 3rd in getting to baseballs outside of his zone with 30 behind only Bartlett (TB) and Scutaro (TOR). TCM is also 5th in Zone Rating.

I don't know who you've been watching play the game, but Ramirez has sick range some of the best in the Majors. He has mental lapses, but to say he has no range is simply silly...

You're misusing the OOZ stat. That is a counting stat for plays made out of zone. It's not a rate stat, so just because he has made the third most, doesnt mean he is third best, understand?

Check out his UZR (http://www.fangraphs.com/leaders.aspx?pos=ss&stats=fld&lg=all&qual=y&type=0&season=2009&month=0) and other defensive metrics over at fangraphs. You'll see just how poor a fielder he is.

Daver
06-28-2009, 07:22 PM
You're misusing the OOZ stat. That is a counting stat for plays made out of zone. It's not a rate stat, so just because he has made the third most, doesnt mean he is third best, understand?

Check out his UZR (http://www.fangraphs.com/leaders.aspx?pos=ss&stats=fld&lg=all&qual=y&type=0&season=2009&month=0) and other defensive metrics over at fangraphs. You'll see just how poor a fielder he is.

If you are relying on a stat that can be affected by a human decision to gauge talent I have zero respect for your opinion.

Tragg
06-28-2009, 07:43 PM
Alexei made a nice play today.
I don't see him play much, but if his problem is simply booting balls, I wouldn't move him. If he's just a bad SS, that's different.

Shoeless
06-28-2009, 08:36 PM
Lets trade Alexei & Jose to the Brewers for JJ Hardy and put him at 3rd, Beck at ss. The Brewers have a stud ss in the minors thats ready. They are going to move him soon because of the Prince and Braun contracts. Hardy is solid with the glove and his power would improve playing at the cell and if Quentin comes back this would be a fun team to watch.

Maybe i'm just blind to the reasoning behind trading a power middle infielder/potential outfielder in the second year of a four year $4 million contract. I guess I don't see the point, especially with the power we're going to lose next season.

voodoochile
06-28-2009, 09:52 PM
You're misusing the OOZ stat. That is a counting stat for plays made out of zone. It's not a rate stat, so just because he has made the third most, doesnt mean he is third best, understand?

Check out his UZR (http://www.fangraphs.com/leaders.aspx?pos=ss&stats=fld&lg=all&qual=y&type=0&season=2009&month=0) and other defensive metrics over at fangraphs. You'll see just how poor a fielder he is.

He gets to more balls outside the standard SS zone than every other shortstop save two in the majors but it doesn't mean anything? Seems like a pretty simple way to evaluate range if you ask me.

Define the zone a SS should cover. Count the number of chances each SS creates outside that zone. Those with the most chances you might say have better range than those with less chances, but of course that doesn't factor in whether a team has more ground ball pitchers or whether the 3B and 2B have good OOZ numbers and thus cut down on the OOZ chances for a given SS so it's not hard science, just something simple to see if a guy can move around. TCM seems to be doing petty well, averaging well over 2 OOZ chances a week at present. That's two outs per week that in theory he shouldn't be getting to. Seems like it might be something most people would say, "pretty cecent" to. But, I don't need a bunch of stats to prove to me your statement about his lack of range is misguided. I can see the guy has some great range just watching him play.

I clicked your link. There's now description of the math used to calculate the stats that are presented there nor if it's been subjected to any kind of testing nor have they factored in those other factors I mentioned above (for all I know). Thus I don't think it means a whole lot.

Has any of that stuff been peer reviewed or are you just swallowing whole on the bait and the hook they are feeding you and passing it off as gospel?

voodoochile
06-28-2009, 09:57 PM
Maybe i'm just blind to the reasoning behind trading a power middle infielder/potential outfielder in the second year of a four year $4 million contract. I guess I don't see the point, especially with the power we're going to lose next season.

The Sox can easily afford to part with Pods, Dye, Konerko, Alexei, AJ, Dotel and Linebrink as well as the expected loss of Thome and Contreras because filling RF, CF/LF 1B, SS, C, two bullpen slots, two starting pitching slots, DH, 3B and/or 2B is super easy to do in a single off season especially when the team has 5 surefire can't miss studs in the minors and besides, prices are going down so not only will all those slots be filled by younger better players, but they'll be cheaper too. The Sox don't ever need to hit a homerun, they just need faster players and it's all good.

:rolleyes:

luke4me1st
06-28-2009, 11:06 PM
I think that is an excellent idea, although I'd want them to get a good 3rd baseman to complete the move.

Might there be one available before the deadline???

I agree 100%, move bacon to 2nd, trade for 3b (Atkins, or other) or call up Dayan, also move pods to center once tcq comes back and tcm to stay at ss.

Line up:

pods
tcm
tcq
jt
jd
pk
aj
bacon
atkins/dayan

dayan june#'s (.292, .349 3hr 12rbi and only 10k in 96ab)

bench
anderson good defensive replacement
fields(needs to k less or improve power)
getz please stop hitting lazy fly balls this is the only reason I would move you to bench other than that I like ur style

wise needs to be released obp of .271, ozzie please
send nix down to aaa

:dtroll:

whitesox_09
06-28-2009, 11:27 PM
The Sox can easily afford to part with Pods, Dye, Konerko, Alexei, AJ, Dotel and Linebrink as well as the expected loss of Thome and Contreras because filling RF, CF/LF 1B, SS, C, two bullpen slots, two starting pitching slots, DH, 3B and/or 2B is super easy to do in a single off season especially when the team has 5 surefire can't miss studs in the minors and besides, prices are going down so not only will all those slots be filled by younger better players, but they'll be cheaper too. The Sox don't ever need to hit a homerun, they just need faster players and it's all good.

:rolleyes:

To be honest, the sox can't afford to part with Pods. The guy has been the most clutch player on the team over the past month. Getting back to the original post, long term it is better for the sox if beckham remains at 3b, assuming he becomes more comfortable there. The people saying Alexei does not have the range to play ss are crazy. We are basically starting three rookies in the infield! If you think about that, it is crazy that this team is actually even in contention. I think Beckham is a sure thing, Alexei will continue to improve (albeit his ceiling seems to be lower) and Getz will be a solid every day second baseman for many years. I know people have been focusing on his average lately but he has been robbed a ton of late and seems to be snake bitten. I also think that as the steroid era ends, being a good defensive middle infielder and hitting .270 makes you a very valuable asset. Before the Brett Boone's of the world started taking enough 'roids to kill a small horse, if you hit 20 HR's you were considered a power hitter! If you hit .275, you were a great hitter! Those numbers will start being normalized again and we seem to have some young players who can be a core for this team for many years.

Rant over

doublem23
06-28-2009, 11:51 PM
Will someone please tell me what they say in Garret Atkins, a career .256/.326/.415 hitter away from Coors Field?

luke4me1st
06-29-2009, 12:09 AM
Will someone please tell me what they say in Garret Atkins, a career .256/.326/.415 hitter away from Coors Field?

Cell with temp above 85*c = Coors Field

I don't like atkins, but what other valid options are out there. Plus the rockies are looking to trade him and with atkins having slow start kenny can buy low. it still would be a big improvement over fields.

jabrch
06-29-2009, 12:33 AM
Check out his UZR (http://www.fangraphs.com/leaders.aspx?pos=ss&stats=fld&lg=all&qual=y&type=0&season=2009&month=0) and other defensive metrics over at fangraphs. You'll see just how poor a fielder he is.

You can not see how poor a fielder he is from any statistic. Fielding statistics suck.

BleacherBandit
06-29-2009, 01:41 AM
Will someone please tell me what they say in Garret Atkins, a career .256/.326/.415 hitter away from Coors Field?

Although Coors is the ultimate home-run field, the Cell isn't that bad as well. Also, he's playing on the road at some pretty large ballparks like Petco.

chaotic8512
06-29-2009, 04:05 AM
I'd have to say leave it, just because I imagine that management's vision is to have them both on the left side. But if Beckham playing third has just been a reaction to Fields' overall ineffectiveness, then I wouldn't have a problem with Alexei going back to second, as long as we stick with it.

Just a sidenote, I know the fielding has been brutal, but I'd like someone who suggested that we trade Alexei to explain their reasoning. That would be one of the worst moves ever. I am even having trouble with the idea of him being sent down! Offensively, he's been amazing:

Since May 11:
AVG: .305 (54 for 177), 9 HRs

Since June 7:
7 HR, 15 RBI; increased OPS from .607 to .720 in three-week span

Yeah, he's going to make more errors than the league average at SS, but I would imagine that would slowly abate, as he's still getting acclimated to the position. But to remove him from the lineup completely? It would be yet another hole to fill.

soxfanreggie
06-29-2009, 05:12 AM
It's sad to say, but we've dealt with .230 batting averages out of guys who have been "offensive weapons" before. I would love to see us make a move or two, but I'm not sure when or if that will happen. I wouldn't mind making some moves now, rather than waiting for free agency at the end of the season.

PhillipsBubba
06-29-2009, 04:53 PM
Might Ryan Zimmerman of the Nationals be available? I haven't seen his name in any trade talk but Washington could be interested in prospects for him.

With him at 3rd, the subject switch could be accomplished.

http://theghostofmoonlightgraham.files.wordpress.com/2009/06/ryan_zimmerman.jpg

...
06-29-2009, 04:57 PM
Might Ryan Zimmerman of the Nationals be available? I haven't seen his name in any trade talk but Washington could be interested in prospects for him.

With him at 3rd, the subject switch could be accomplished.

http://theghostofmoonlightgraham.files.wordpress.com/2009/06/ryan_zimmerman.jpg

He's not available, I just called.

PhillipsBubba
06-29-2009, 06:25 PM
He's not available, I just called.

He doesn't take calls during the day....try again after 6:00 PM

DSpivack
06-29-2009, 06:47 PM
He doesn't take calls during the day....try again after 6:00 PM

He's considered the face of the franchise. He's going nowhere.

BadBobbyJenks
06-29-2009, 07:06 PM
Zimmerman just inked an extension, he is not going to be traded.

BleacherBandit
06-29-2009, 07:26 PM
He's considered the face of the franchise. He's going nowhere.

Their franchise is a pretty handsome burn-victim in that case.

Lillian
06-30-2009, 10:01 PM
For my money, I'd like to see Nix and Beckham both in the infield. If that means moving Alexei to center, so be it. It wouldn't be so bad to have his speed in center to compensate for Dye's lack of speed.

Of course the question is what do you do when Carlos comes back. At that point you could move Alexei back to SS, Beckham to 2nd and Nix to 3rd. The outfield would then be Pods in CF, with Quentin in Left and Dye in RF.

I just really like Nix. I took a lot of flack for touting him early. Lot's of comments about how he was a career minor leaguer, and only hit in Colorado Springs because of the extreme thin air in that 6,000+ altitude.
Well, anyone who has watched this guy hit, has to love his approach, and wow can he field. His upside is just so much better than Getz'. I like Getz, but I just think you don't sacrifice anything by going with Nix, with a bigger upside.

DSpivack
06-30-2009, 10:12 PM
Their franchise is a pretty handsome burn-victim in that case.

Yeah, but there is no way they're trading him anytime soon.