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LITTLE NELL
06-24-2009, 08:04 PM
So here I am watching the Ray-Phillies game and they are interviewing Robin Roberts, it comes up that Roberts had more complete games than victories, 305 to 286. Roberts mentioned Warren Spahn also had more completions; 386-363. Bob Gibson 290-286. Billy Pierce and Early Wynn came close. I'm checking other pitchers from that era and see what we come up with.
Talk about records that we will never see broken.....

Johnny Mostil
06-24-2009, 11:37 PM
Interesting topic. Not quite the same caliber of the others you mentioned, but Johnny Sain had 140 CGs and 139 Ws. Earlier, Ruth had 104 CGs and 94 Ws, though I suppose his bat makes him a special case.

Edit: Also someone from an earlier era whom I'll mention because he was a Sox pitcher--Ted Lyons, 356 CGs and 260 Ws. Of course, that gets away from the era you first mentioned. (There were many others in the earlier era as well.)

I wonder if Gibson was (will be?) the last to accomplish that?

Zakath
06-24-2009, 11:46 PM
Gibson was probably the last (though his Baseball Almanac page only shows 251 W and 255 CG). Even other great '60s pitchers (or pitchers whose careers started in the '60s - Koufax, Drysdale, Seaver, Carlton, Ryan) had about 3/4 as many CG's as W's.

slavko
06-24-2009, 11:58 PM
Roberts threw strikes, as a result gave up a LOT of HR's for a HOF pitcher. Look it up, you'll be surprised. Pitched for some bad Phillies teams.

Johnny Mostil
06-25-2009, 08:12 AM
Speaking of pitchers for bad Phillies teams, I see Carlton had 30 CGs for the Phils in '72, when he also had 27 of the team's 59 Ws. Only Catfish Hunter has had 30 CGs in a season since ('75 Yanks). I knew times had changed, but I hadn't known there hasn't been a pitcher with 10 CGs since 1999, nor one with 20 CGs since 1986.

Johnny Mostil
06-25-2009, 09:08 AM
This thread got me to research CG leaders by season (http://www.baseball-reference.com/leaders/CG_leagues.shtml). I was somewhat surprised by what I saw. Specifically, the last pitcher to have at least
10 CGs in a season: Johnson, 1999 (12)
20 CGs in a season: Valenzuela, 1986 (20)
30 CGs in a season: Hunter, 1975 (30)
40 CGs in a season: Irv Young, 1905 (41)
50 CGs in a season: Rusie, 1893 (50)
60 CGs in a season: Hutchison, 1892 (67)
70 CGs in a season: Radbourn, 1884 (73).

Now I may have missed some (although I’m fairly sure nobody has had 80 CGs in a season), and there is some fluctuation in that long gap between 1905 and 1975 (though no leader appears to have been below 15). But it looks like we've seen more change in the roles and expectations of starting pitchers in the past three decades than there's been since the late 19th century.

LITTLE NELL
06-25-2009, 10:53 AM
Those teams in the 1880s must have had only 2 or 3 starters, 73 CGs in a season is awesome.
PS I just googled the 1880 White Stockings (Cubs) and they had 3 pitchers on the whole roster, some guy named Corcoran started 63 of the teams 84 games and pitched 530 innings.

ode to veeck
06-25-2009, 03:25 PM
Fergie Jenkins 267CG 284W

Paulwny
06-26-2009, 02:44 PM
Roberts threw strikes, as a result gave up a LOT of HR's for a HOF pitcher. Look it up, you'll be surprised. Pitched for some bad Phillies teams.


He also refused to throw at hitters. Opposing player knew this and dug in against him = more HR's.

TheVulture
06-26-2009, 09:05 PM
Those teams in the 1880s must have had only 2 or 3 starters, 73 CGs in a season is awesome.


Back in those days, though, weren't the pitchers more or less just lobbing it in for the batters to hit? I know at one point in the games evolution, earlier than that probably, they were basically throwing underhand with no real intent to strike the batter out.