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View Full Version : *Official* 6-23-09 Koufax Beats the Sox Postgame Thread


Brian26
06-23-2009, 10:43 PM
I was listening to Farmer and Rongey at the end of the game. Was Dye trying to take third while Thome had two strikes on him in the Bottom of the 9th? Wasn't Dye the one who got upset with Cabrera around this time last year for doing the same thing? Is there any reason for Dye to take third in that situation?

WhiteSox1989
06-23-2009, 10:46 PM
Can't win 'em all.

Get him tomorrow, boys.


(this is what I tell myself after every loss).

I will act like baseball does not exist tomorrow (until 7:11)..I seem to be doing that a lot this season.

PhillipsBubba
06-23-2009, 10:47 PM
Today, KW spoke of the confidence he has in this club.:scratch:

After another dismal home performance, his neck must be a little tight. Our heroes were outclassed by a much better team. No surprise here but disappointing nonetheless:(:

drewcifer
06-23-2009, 10:49 PM
I was listening to Farmer and Rongey at the end of the game. Was Dye trying to take third while Thome had two strikes on him in the Bottom of the 9th? Wasn't Dye the one who got upset with Cabrera around this time last year for doing the same thing? Is there any reason for Dye to take third in that situation?

Dye was running all the way because Broxton doesn't check runners - at all. No move, beyond stepping off the rubber. So yeah, Jermaine went for 3rd but Thome fouled and he just kept on running (because why not - down by 3, 2 outs....)

Team sucks.

P.S. - Joe West is a douche.

JB98
06-23-2009, 10:49 PM
IMO, the Dodgers are a much better team than our White Sox. However, that does not make another lousy offensive performance at home any less frustrating.

The Sox are now 235-for-1085 at home this season. That pencils out to a robust .217 batting average. The Sox hit a very respectable .280 on the road.

Frater Perdurabo
06-23-2009, 10:49 PM
I was listening to Farmer and Rongey at the end of the game. Was Dye trying to take third while Thome had two strikes on him in the Bottom of the 9th? Wasn't Dye the one who got upset with Cabrera around this time last year for doing the same thing? Is there any reason for Dye to take third in that situation?

Defensive indifference, plus the Thome shift. With the bad calf maybe JD wanted an easier trip around the bases?:D:

Woofer
06-23-2009, 10:50 PM
I have come to the realization that this is going to be no better than a .500 team.

Bill Naharodny
06-23-2009, 10:51 PM
IMO, the Dodgers are a much better team than our White Sox. However, that does not make another lousy offensive performance at home any less frustrating.

The Sox are now 235-for-1085 at home this season. That pencils out to a robust .217 batting average. The Sox hit a very respectable .280 on the road.

With the interleague games, I just hope that we don't have to wait 2 weeks for Thome to get his timing back. He was miserable tonight.

Frater Perdurabo
06-23-2009, 10:51 PM
IMO, the Dodgers are a much better team than our White Sox. However, that does not make another lousy offensive performance at home any less frustrating.

The Sox are now 235-for-1085 at home this season. That pencils out to a robust .217 batting average. The Sox hit a very respectable .280 on the road.

Pathetic and inexcusable.

ode to veeck
06-23-2009, 10:51 PM
Komban, Kurada-san wa sorei sorei tahen desuneeeee ....

BadBobbyJenks
06-23-2009, 10:53 PM
Someone needs to explain to me why we brought up Poreda to be the mop up reliever. How is that a good way to develop him?

WhiteSox1989
06-23-2009, 10:54 PM
As I posted in the other thread, I will be surprised if we don't see changes soon. Whether that's "rebuilding" (meaning getting rid of players like Dye, Thome, Contreras, Pods, Jenks, Paulie) or bringing in a couple guys who Kenny thinks can contribute THIS year.

drewcifer
06-23-2009, 10:56 PM
Someone needs to explain to me why we brought up Poreda to be the mop up reliever. How is that a good way to develop him? It's not. In fact, if/when we're out of it, he won't be stretched out to even try a few starts so it makes pretty much no sense at all.

DirtySox
06-23-2009, 10:58 PM
Looks like everyone else in the AL Central won/will win today. :(:

Brian26
06-23-2009, 11:02 PM
IMO, the Dodgers are a much better team than our White Sox.

I don't think you need to qualify that statement with an "IMO". The Dodgers are possibly the best team in baseball.

TDog
06-23-2009, 11:03 PM
Today, KW spoke of the confidence he has in this club.:scratch:

After another dismal home performance, his neck must be a little tight. Our heroes were outclassed by a much better team. No surprise here but disappointing nonetheless:(:

The Dodgers have better starting pitching than the Sox, and Kuroda started for the Dodgers on opening day. They have a better bullpen without the overuse because the Dodgers don't go to the bullpen unless they need to due to ineffectiveness or pinch-hitters. They don't yank pitchers because they get to 100 pitches.

Danks needed to pitch a great game today, but that probably wouldn't have been enough. The Dodgers had more baserunners in the two innings the bullpen was in there than they did against Danks. I don't know if it was 2-to-1, but it may have been close. And Danks didn't start pitching well until the Sox were losing 3-0.

Baseball teams win and lose baseball games. Falling behind was critical. The Dodgers generally hold their leads. It was steeply uphill for the Sox even before Thome got his first at bat.

BadBobbyJenks
06-23-2009, 11:04 PM
Well at least Kevin Gregg shut the door on the Tiggers.....Opps

JB98
06-23-2009, 11:04 PM
I don't think you need to qualify that statement with an "IMO". The Dodgers are possibly the best team in baseball.

Quite possibly.

I know there are some people here who still believe this Sox team is a contender. I don't believe that to be the case, but I try not to be too negative about the outlook for the rest of the season.

drewcifer
06-23-2009, 11:07 PM
The Dodgers have better starting pitching than the Sox, and Kuroda started for the Dodgers on opening day. They have a better bullpen without the overuse because the Dodgers don't go to the bullpen unless they need to due to ineffectiveness or pinch-hitters. They don't yank pitchers because they get to 100 pitches.


How come you keep mentioning Kuroda pitching opening day? Have you seen his game logs? That was his only W, until tonight, after opening day he didn't start again for almost 2 months.

Kuroda's numbers look pretty good (doesn't walk, doesn't give up long balls), but he also hadn't gone past 6 IP and had a nearly 4.5 ERA until tonight. And to be honest, I really didn't see much from him that we shouldn't have been lighting him up.

JB98
06-23-2009, 11:08 PM
How come you keep mentioning Kuroda pitching opening day? Have you seen his game logs? That was his only W, until tonight, after opening day he didn't start again for almost 2 months.

Kuroda's numbers look pretty good (doesn't walk, doesn't give up long balls), but he also hadn't gone past 6 IP and had a nearly 4.5 ERA until tonight. And to be honest, I really didn't see much from him that we shouldn't have been lighting him up.

I thought the Sox chased a lot of pitches outside the zone tonight.

drewcifer
06-23-2009, 11:12 PM
I thought the Sox chased a lot of pitches outside the zone tonight. Yeah, that's the game I watched too. :dunno:

veeter
06-23-2009, 11:13 PM
Quite possibly.

I know there are some people here who still believe this Sox team is a contender. I don't believe that to be the case, but I try not to be too negative about the outlook for the rest of the season.I think the Sox are a divisional contender. Beyond that, probably not. I just hope Carlos comes back 100%. He's a huge missing piece. I believe, once again, Hawk is out of his mind. Our bullpen sucks. When the Octavio Dotel era ends, I will be very happy. The bullpen is why I think the Sox won't compete ultimately. I could see a scenario where some guys are moved and Poreda takes a larger role. I really like that kid. In summary, I think the Sox still have a very good chance of winning the division.

drewcifer
06-23-2009, 11:20 PM
I think the Sox are a divisional contender. Beyond that, probably not. I just hope Carlos comes back 100%. He's a huge missing piece. I believe, once again, Hawk is out of his mind. Our bullpen sucks. When the Octavio Dotel era ends, I will be very happy. The bullpen is why I think the Sox won't compete ultimately. I could see a scenario where some guys are moved and Poreda takes a larger role. I really like that kid. In summary, I think the Sox still have a very good chance of winning the division. If we move guys in favor of putting Poreda in the Bullpen, we are wasting huge potential SP talent considering the control and efficiency performance he has shown.

I hope to God this team has no designs of making him a future part of bullpen needs. We're going to need a #4 and #5 again after this year.

JB98
06-23-2009, 11:24 PM
I think the Sox are a divisional contender. Beyond that, probably not. I just hope Carlos comes back 100%. He's a huge missing piece. I believe, once again, Hawk is out of his mind. Our bullpen sucks. When the Octavio Dotel era ends, I will be very happy. The bullpen is why I think the Sox won't compete ultimately. I could see a scenario where some guys are moved and Poreda takes a larger role. I really like that kid. In summary, I think the Sox still have a very good chance of winning the division.

I would put their chances of winning the division at about 10 percent, and that's only because I'm trying to be as positive as possible. I don't see them finishing above third, to tell you the truth. Way too many holes on this roster, and I doubt Quentin comes back 100 percent.

In fact, my doubts about Quentin are the No. 1 reason for my pessimism.

veeter
06-23-2009, 11:27 PM
If we move guys in favor of putting Poreda in the Bullpen, we are wasting huge potential SP talent considering the control and efficiency performance he has shown.

I hope to God this team has no designs of making him a future part of bullpen needs. We're going to need a #4 and #5 again after this year.There's nothing wrong with him pitching his first year out of the pen. Buehrle did it, so have many others. Without question he's a future starter. It all depends on what happens with trades I guess. I'd like to see them flip-flop Poreda and Richard personally.

veeter
06-23-2009, 11:29 PM
I would put their chances of winning the division at about 10 percent, and that's only because I'm trying to be as positive as possible. I don't see them finishing above third, to tell you the truth. Way too many holes on this roster, and I doubt Quentin comes back 100 percent.

In fact, my doubts about Quentin are the No. 1 reason for my pessimism.I'd be willing to wait for Carlos until 2010, if it meant we'd see the beast of last season again. I haven't anticipated a Sox at-bat like I did Quentin, since Big Frank was here.

drewcifer
06-23-2009, 11:31 PM
There's nothing wrong with him pitching his first year out of the pen. Buehrle did it, so have many others. Without question he's a future starter. It all depends on what happens with trades I guess. I'd like to see them flip-flop Poreda and Richard personally. Now you're talking. If he's going to be up here, let him start.

TDog
06-23-2009, 11:32 PM
How come you keep mentioning Kuroda pitching opening day? Have you seen his game logs? That was his only W, until tonight, after opening day he didn't start again for almost 2 months.

Kuroda's numbers look pretty good (doesn't walk, doesn't give up long balls), but he also hadn't gone past 6 IP and had a nearly 4.5 ERA until tonight. And to be honest, I really didn't see much from him that we shouldn't have been lighting him up.

Kuroda was injured on opening day. He has been working his way back to being the ace the Dodgers expected him to be, based on his experience and his spring. He pitched 11 seasons in Japan before coming to the Dodgers.

drewcifer
06-23-2009, 11:43 PM
Kuroda was injured on opening day. He has been working his way back to being the ace the Dodgers expected him to be, based on his experience and his spring. He pitched 11 seasons in Japan before coming to the Dodgers.

Ace? He's 34, pitches in a weak division, has maybe a 6-7mph variance between his fastball and offspeed stuff, it has no tilt, and minor break. He's right handed and he has a pretty ordinary delivery.

Batters seem to help him out more than he deserves - I just don't see anything about him that screams ace when I see him pitch. Especially on that team when you consider Billingsley and Kershaw.

This is not King Felix or Tim Lincecum here.

Jim Shorts
06-23-2009, 11:46 PM
Now you're talking. If he's going to be up here, let him start.

Yeah. Let's really tax our bullpen.

chisoxfanatic
06-23-2009, 11:46 PM
IMO, the Dodgers are a much better team than our White Sox. However, that does not make another lousy offensive performance at home any less frustrating.

The Sox are now 235-for-1085 at home this season. That pencils out to a robust .217 batting average. The Sox hit a very respectable .280 on the road.
That doesn't surprise me. They were hitting much better in NL parks when they got more creative with things to compensate for being down an extra hitter. This is a disgrace.

Jim Shorts
06-23-2009, 11:47 PM
Ace? He's 34, pitches in a weak division, has maybe a 6-7mph variance between his fastball and offspeed stuff, it has no tilt, and minor break. He's right handed and he has a pretty ordinary delivery.

Batters seem to help him out more than he deserves - I just don't see anything about him that screams ace when I see him pitch. Especially on that team when you consider Billingsley and Kershaw.

This is not King Felix or Tim Lincecum here.

Yet our Vet's treated him like such.

drewcifer
06-23-2009, 11:48 PM
Yet our Vet's treated him like such.

Aggh - Beat me to it! :cool:

Lip Man 1
06-23-2009, 11:49 PM
The Sox come home and 'poof!' the offense disappears.

The Sox have scored all of 34 runs in their last 12 home games and don't look now but they trail Detroit by six. Despite Kenny Williams' comments earlier today to the Chicago Tribune's Mark Gonzales, if they fall eight, nine, ten games back, they'll have no choice... none...but to sell as much as they can and get what they can regardless of how that impacts attendance. That's just the reality of the situation.

Lip

russ99
06-23-2009, 11:55 PM
The Sox come home and 'poof!' the offense disappears.

The Sox have scored all of 34 runs in their last 12 home games and don't look now but they trail Detroit by six. Despite Kenny Williams' comments earlier today to the Chicago Tribune's Mark Gonzales, if they fall eight, nine, ten games back, they'll have no choice... none...but to sell as much as they can and get what they can regardless of how that impacts attendance. That's just the reality of the situation.

Lip

Lip:

The big problem with selling this year is that no one wants to take on payroll or wants to give up good prospects. A few GM's have come out on the record about that in the last week or two.

So the question is would the Sox take a lesser return just to get rid of some players? I think that's why Kenny's saying the opposite of selling, whether if that's his intended direction or not.

And I'd really like to see Walker held accountable for this team's awful offensive performance before we trade off the players who are doing well like Dye or Jenks. Sadly, we may need to wait until the season ends for that... :mad:

But still, if Ozzie and/or Jerry don't want to fire him, there's other ways to make a change at hitting coach, such as re-assign him in the organization or swap hitting coach duties with the guy at the AA or AAA level... Other teams have done that before.

voodoochile
06-23-2009, 11:55 PM
If we move guys in favor of putting Poreda in the Bullpen, we are wasting huge potential SP talent considering the control and efficiency performance he has shown.

I hope to God this team has no designs of making him a future part of bullpen needs. We're going to need a #4 and #5 again after this year.

Isn't that mostly a matter of stretching out the arm to go deeper into games? I mean if they can give Poreda practice facing big league hitters even in a relief role this year, the experience is still useful and shouldn't damage his ability to be a starter long term would it? Actually, they were talking about making him a closer and if the Sox falter then they might trade Bobby and go that direction, but that's purely speculation based on stuff I've heard/read.

Jim Shorts
06-23-2009, 11:58 PM
The Sox come home and 'poof!' the offense disappears.

The Sox have scored all of 34 runs in their last 12 home games and don't look now but they trail Detroit by six. Despite Kenny Williams' comments earlier today to the Chicago Tribune's Mark Gonzales, if they fall eight, nine, ten games back, they'll have no choice... none...but to sell as much as they can and get what they can regardless of how that impacts attendance. That's just the reality of the situation.

Lip

The writing was on the wall before this team came home. Today's game just highlighted all that graffiti.

TDog
06-23-2009, 11:59 PM
Ace? He's 34, pitches in a weak division, has maybe a 6-7mph variance between his fastball and offspeed stuff, it has no tilt, and minor break. He's right handed and he has a pretty ordinary delivery.

Batters seem to help him out more than he deserves - I just don't see anything about him that screams ace when I see him pitch. Especially on that team when you consider Billingsley and Kershaw.

This is not King Felix or Tim Lincecum here.

Joe Torre has a very good pitching staff. I read what he says about his starters. He has a pretty good track record as a manager. I'll trust his judgment.

drewcifer
06-24-2009, 12:01 AM
Isn't that mostly a matter of stretching out the arm to go deeper into games? I mean if they can give Poreda practice facing big league hitters even in a relief role this year, the experience is still useful and shouldn't damage his ability to be a starter long term would it? Actually, they were talking about making him a closer and if the Sox falter then they might trade Bobby and go that direction, but that's purely speculation based on stuff I've heard/read.

Getting some experience at callups is one thing, but he's on the 25 man as a BP option now in June!

Yes, he's getting experience but it's not in a role he should continue to be groomed for, IMO. He's not even the go to guy out of the pen; he's "mop up" (2nd/3rd option in a **** game as someone else mentioned).

I'm not sure why making him a closer makes sense either. Link is a way better option when/if there is a Jenks trade and he (Poreda) can stay the course.

voodoochile
06-24-2009, 12:11 AM
Getting some experience at callups is one thing, but he's on the 25 man as a BP option now in June!

Yes, he's getting experience but it's not in a role he should continue to be groomed for, IMO. He's not even the go to guy out of the pen; he's "mop up" (2nd/3rd option in a **** game as someone else mentioned).

I'm not sure why making him a closer makes sense either. Link is a way better option when/if there is a Jenks trade and he (Poreda) can stay the course.

Right, but that's just so far. He's only appeared in 3 or 4 games so far. You wouldn't bring him up and toss him into crucial situations with the team (in theory) still in the race. It wouldn't be good for the other team members psyche nor for Poreda's development. Ozzie did the same thing with Gobble and has been taking it slow with Beckham too. He didn't even let Getz bat high in the order to start the season until all the other options failed.

You don't toss a promising player to the wolves this soon. You bring him along slowly let him get his feet wet. I imagine he'll start seeing more meaningful PT in the near future since he has perfomed well in the time he has been out there. Like Gobble who is now being used as a Loogy in some situations and nor performing horribly at that.

I agree that if this is all they intend for Poreda, he'd be better served moving back down to the minors eventually, but I don't think that's the case and with Dotel and Linebrink both struggling, I expect Ozzie will be inclined to use some of the other pitchers in their roles as time goes by...

DirtySox
06-24-2009, 12:15 AM
A player with Poreda's upside/ceiling won't be turned into a closer until it's determined the he absolutely won't be a solid starter. This is especially true with the dearth of starting pitching options for next year. Bullpen is last resort for him.

In the Tribune it was written that he is frequently throwing side sessions and getting to work with Coop. While I agree that using him more often in higher leverage situations is desirable, it's not like he's doing absolutely nothing.

I've said it before and will say it again. Unless the Sox show clear signs they can and will win this division, Poreda will be starting at some point this season. The over/under is probably the All-Star Break.

drewcifer
06-24-2009, 12:24 AM
Right, but that's just so far. He's only appeared in 3 or 4 games so far. You wouldn't bring him up and toss him into crucial situations with the team (in theory) still in the race. It wouldn't be good for the other team members psyche nor for Poreda's development. Ozzie did the same thing with Gobble and has been taking it slow with Beckham too. He didn't even let Getz bat high in the order to start the season until all the other options failed.

You don't toss a promising player to the wolves this soon. You bring him along slowly let him get his feet wet. I imagine he'll start seeing more meaningful PT in the near future since he has perfomed well in the time he has been out there. Like Gobble who is now being used as a Loogy in some situations and nor performing horribly at that.

I agree that if this is all they intend for Poreda, he'd be better served moving back down to the minors eventually, but I don't think that's the case and with Dotel and Linebrink both struggling, I expect Ozzie will be inclined to use some of the other pitchers in their roles as time goes by...

My original point was that Poreda shouldn't even be up here. But if he is going to be, and now, then let him start some games.

The Sox aren't out of it yet at all. So.....why is here and why is he being used like he is? What is the benefit to HIM and to the future in this role right now?

You have Dotel, Linebrink, Thornton, and Carrasco on the roster... All big boys with experience, all relievers. If Poreda coming up now is the "answer" for any combination of the above struggling, we are in deep ****.

(Gobble and Poreda have absolutely nothing in common so I skipped that point)

twinsuck
06-24-2009, 12:29 AM
I was at the game, it sucked! Not only did the Sox lose, but it was really boring to watch.

StillMissOzzie
06-24-2009, 02:21 AM
Me and the boy were at tonight's "festivities", and the first thing I have to say, if Hawk thinks the Sox are gonna win the division because they have the best bullpen, I want to know what he's drinking up there.

I am convinced that Dotel doesn't start to bear down until he has allowed all of his inherited runners to score. Linebrink can't keep the ball in the yard, and even Thornton has looked shaky lately. The Sox can't get a lead often enough to get the game to Jenks. Gobble and Carrasco are primarily mop-up, and just what the hell are they wasting time with Poreda in the bullpen for?

Once it was apparent that there would be no miracle finish this time, we were kinda hoping that Kuroda (sp?) would get a complete game in under 100 pitches. As it was, he went 8.2 with (appx) 105.

I agree with an earlier poster who said that the Sox chased a lot of bad pitches tonight. Add to that a lot of impatience, as demonstrated by the low pitch count. He was still averaging appx 10 pitches per inning through the 8th inning!

The one chuckle we had were Dye's "stolen bases" in the 9th. Between Dodger indifference and the Thome shift, he was given 2nd base and he barely jogged from 2nd to 3rd.

Other than a PK homer, not much to cheer about tonight...It reminded me of a typical Jimmy Key beat-down fom the early 80's.

SMO
:angry:

voodoochile
06-24-2009, 09:55 AM
My original point was that Poreda shouldn't even be up here. But if he is going to be, and now, then let him start some games.

The Sox aren't out of it yet at all. So.....why is here and why is he being used like he is? What is the benefit to HIM and to the future in this role right now?

You have Dotel, Linebrink, Thornton, and Carrasco on the roster... All big boys with experience, all relievers. If Poreda coming up now is the "answer" for any combination of the above struggling, we are in deep ****.

(Gobble and Poreda have absolutely nothing in common so I skipped that point)

That may be the plan after he gets acclimated and then gets to throw a few times in long relief. Pitching out of that ducksnort induced jam last night can't hurt his standing in Ozzie's eyes. I expect his role will be changing soon.

voodoochile
06-24-2009, 09:58 AM
Not saying our offense isn't struggling but all the posters running down the Dodger's pitcher and heaping scorn on our offense are ignoring that the Sox had 2 hits entering the 9th inning. That's not all on us. Of course Danks surrendered 3 in his 7 but one of them was a fat meatball with a man on first that left the park in a hurry. Dodgers are a good team. If Dotel doesn't completely crap the bed, the game would have been much closer.

wassagstdu
06-24-2009, 01:14 PM
Watching the rapid progress Beckham is making at third and the leather Getz is throwing at second, along with Alexei's highlight reel play at short, I am thinking the Sox could have a great defensive infield for a long time. I'd pay to see them. That thought crossed my mind after the popped bunt that Beckham caught diving over his shoulder, realizing that Alexei could also have caught it coming over from short, and that his agility made avoiding a collision look easy.

EDIT: Never mind.

cards press box
06-24-2009, 04:11 PM
Not saying our offense isn't struggling but all the posters running down the Dodger's pitcher and heaping scorn on our offense are ignoring that the Sox had 2 hits entering the 9th inning. That's not all on us. Of course Danks surrendered 3 in his 7 but one of them was a fat meatball with a man on first that left the park in a hurry. Dodgers are a good team. If Dotel doesn't completely crap the bed, the game would have been much closer.

I agree. Kuroda has done well in the majors since coming from Japan.

http://www.baseball-reference.com/players/k/kurodhi01.shtml