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Lip Man 1
06-23-2009, 06:40 PM
At least for right now.

Speaks with Mark Gonzales of the Chicago Tribune:

http://blogs.chicagosports.chicagotribune.com/sports_hardball/

Lip

Brian26
06-23-2009, 06:45 PM
Buster Olney pointed something out recently on the ESPN Mike & Mike show:

Most General Managers around the league, because of the economy, aren't looking to take on salary at this point, even for half a season. If they are willing to trade for any veterans, they're asking the trading clubs to contribute salary. In return, they might send back a mid-level minor league package.

Do you think the Sox are going to pay someone to take Dye, Konerko or Dotel, and on top of that not get anything substantial in return? Hell, they might as well keep who they have and hope to go on a winning streak to sell some more tickets down the stretch.

Buster thinks this year's trading season could be one of the dryest ever. He said the only exception to this rule right now is the Red Sox.

TDog
06-23-2009, 07:12 PM
...

Buster thinks this year's trading season could be one of the dryest ever. He said the only exception to this rule right now is the Red Sox.

I think that would be a good thing. The trading deadline should be moved back to June 25, the way it used to be. That might be too late in the season.

chisoxfanatic
06-23-2009, 07:35 PM
I think that would be a good thing. The trading deadline should be moved back to June 25, the way it used to be. That might be too late in the season.
Why? The other leagues have trading deadlines proportionally later.

getonbckthr
06-23-2009, 07:41 PM
Trade deadline should moved to mid-August at the earliest.

TDog
06-23-2009, 07:43 PM
Why? The other leagues have trading deadlines proportionally later.

I really don't care about other leagues. If they're not baseball, it doesn't matter what they do.

What I hate to see is baseball teams trade away their stars for prospects. Such a system perpetuates baseball's caste system, allowing the rich teams to continue to be rich while the developing teams will be forever developing.

Dibbs
06-23-2009, 07:54 PM
Trade deadline should moved to mid-August at the earliest.

No way. I would go in the other direction. It would be completely unfair to have trades going down close to September.

TommyJohn
06-23-2009, 08:05 PM
I really don't care about other leagues. If they're not baseball, it doesn't matter what they do.

What I hate to see is baseball teams trade away their stars for prospects. Such a system perpetuates baseball's caste system, allowing the rich teams to continue to be rich while the developing teams will be forever developing.
Charlie Finley tried to sell Rollie Fingers, Joe Rudi and Vida Blue to the Red Sox and Yankees, respectively back in 1975 or 76. Bowie Kuhn invoked the "best interests" clause and voided the deals. Finley responded by calling Kuhn the "Village Idiot" but in my opinion, Kuhn knew exactly what he was doing and was smart to void the deals, even though it was basically a precusor of what was to come.

Lip Man 1
06-23-2009, 08:35 PM
Bowie also voided a later deal when Finley sent Blue to the Reds for 100,000 and Dave Revering.

And the original trading deadline at least through the mid 80's was June 15th.

Those were the dates the Sox got players at the last minute like Chet Lemon, Ed Farmer and Julio Cruz.

Lip

canOcorn
06-23-2009, 08:40 PM
I'd be open to dealing any one of the Dye, Konerko, Dotel, Jenks to Bawwston for one of the Bowden, Bard, Buchholz, ect. I'd include Linebrink, but he's got negative value at this point. It won't happen because Boston expects Beckham, Danks, Danks, Dotel and Jenks for Masterson.

I know Dye won't accept a trade there, but the point is that Boston is nuts in what they want in return.

PhillipsBubba
06-23-2009, 09:28 PM
KW will never reveal his thinking where trades are concerned.

If our heroes have a bad week versus the Dodgers and the Cubs...look for changes.

DirtySox
06-23-2009, 10:33 PM
"No sale" ... yet.

kba
06-23-2009, 10:42 PM
Bowie also voided a later deal when Finley sent Blue to the Reds for 100,000 and Dave Revering.


This wasn't a trade deadline deal, but Kuhn also intervened when Bill Veeck tried to trade Bucky Dent to the Yankees for Oscar Gamble and $700,000 cash. Veeck was desperate for money, but Kuhn said too much was changing hands, so the Yankees cut the cash to $400,000 and threw in a couple of obscure minor leaguers, including a struggling youngster named LaMarr Hoyt.

WhiteSox1989
06-23-2009, 10:49 PM
KW will never reveal his thinking where trades are concerned.

If our heroes have a bad week versus the Dodgers and the Cubs...look for changes.
Exactly. And if changes don't happen I will be highly disappointed and surprised at Kenny.

mweflen
06-23-2009, 11:02 PM
Somebody in contention has got to be willing to part with at least some prospects for Dye, Thome, Quentin (someone will gamble on him, though I loved watching him, I'm of the opinion he'll never play more than 4 months a year).

IMHO (FWIW), I think we should keep:

Pods (LF)
Beckham (3B)
Konerko (1B/DH)
AJ (C)
Alexei (SS)
Getz (2B)
Anderson (CF)
Fields (RF/1B)
Nix (IF/OF)

Bring up:
Flowers (C/DH)
Danks

Retain SP's 1-4 and let Contreras go at the end of the year.
Ditch Linebrink and Dotel (too expensive for the results)

This team is done. We need to let the kids play for 3 months to see what they've got. Then we'll be in a financial position to go shopping for 2010. With the players I listed as kept, there should be enough to draw fans.

ode to veeck
06-23-2009, 11:05 PM
Bowie Kuhn was an idiot, Finley was right.

TDog
06-23-2009, 11:20 PM
Bowie Kuhn was an idiot, Finley was right.

Finley was wrong, but for the right reason. Kuhn was right, but for the wrong reason.

Finley's reasoning was that in the new baseball economy with players being able to become free agents, teams would need money to compete. He wouldn't be able to hold onto the stars who were only tied to the team because, for the most part, the A's had drafted them and they were bound to the team as long as the team wanted them. Kuhn was wrong in likening Finley's selling off his players to Connie Mack gutting his A's teams by selling off his players -- for personal profit, mind you -- whenever he built a winner in Philadelphia.

Kuhn was right that it is not in the best interest of baseball for a team to sell off its stars for money. The idea that rich teams can buy players from poor teams to become better goes to the heart of what people believe is the most critical problem in baseball today. Of course, he didn't anticipate the changing economics that made it impossible for Finley to compete. Certainly Veeck couldn't compete in that environment. He didn't have Finley's eye for baseball talent, his drafting of Harold Baines notwithstanding.

Contending teams should not be able to raid non-contending teams every summer in any case. Move the trade deadline back to June.

DirtySox
06-23-2009, 11:43 PM
http://www.chicagotribune.com/sports/chi-24-white-sox-dodgers-chicagojun24,0,6376872.story

Read the bottom quotes by Kenny. Sure sounds like some selling is going to happen to me. You don't call "buying" an impact player as "neutral" for the '09 season. That's what you call trading for prospects.

Jim Shorts
06-23-2009, 11:56 PM
Finley was wrong, but for the right reason. Kuhn was right, but for the wrong reason.

Finley's reasoning was that in the new baseball economy with players being able to become free agents, teams would need money to compete. He wouldn't be able to hold onto the stars who were only tied to the team because, for the most part, the A's had drafted them and they were bound to the team as long as the team wanted them. Kuhn was wrong in likening Finley's selling off his players to Connie Mack gutting his A's teams by selling off his players -- for personal profit, mind you -- whenever he built a winner in Philadelphia.

Kuhn was right that it is not in the best interest of baseball for a team to sell off its stars for money. The idea that rich teams can buy players from poor teams to become better goes to the heart of what people believe is the most critical problem in baseball today. Of course, he didn't anticipate the changing economics that made it impossible for Finley to compete. Certainly Veeck couldn't compete in that environment. He didn't have Finley's eye for baseball talent, his drafting of Harold Baines notwithstanding.

Contending teams should not be able to raid non-contending teams every summer in any case. Move the trade deadline back to June.

That's a great post.

Tragg
06-24-2009, 12:35 AM
I really don't care about other leagues. If they're not baseball, it doesn't matter what they do.

What I hate to see is baseball teams trade away their stars for prospects. Such a system perpetuates baseball's caste system, allowing the rich teams to continue to be rich while the developing teams will be forever developing.
Has that really been happening much lately, outside of Pittsburg?
Beane does it, but that really seems to be out of choice - he seems to take delight in it.
And at some point the "vicious circle" needs to be recognized - the lack of winning perpetuates the lack of money. Cleveland and Toronto had full stadiums - then they intentionally dispersed.

I think I agree with you on moving the trade dealine to July 1 or so.

kitekrazy
06-25-2009, 12:12 AM
And at some point the "vicious circle" needs to be recognized - the lack of winning perpetuates the lack of money. Cleveland and Toronto had full stadiums - then they intentionally dispersed.


That's why MLB takes a backseat to the NBA and NFL.
If those sports were in a baseball world, Cleveland doesn't get to keep Lebron James, Peyton Manning doesn't stay in Indy.

I think the real idiots in MLB are the owners. 1) they approve of Butt Selig 2) they have no problem with the caste system

MLB has become a sport where fans determine how good their team will be based on how much money is spent. For some fans that leaves no hope.

Hopefully without the steroid era out of the way, teams will mean a bit more than individuals and the Steinbrenner model of team building will lose interest among fans.

I'm wouldn't be a bit surprised that the payroll part of the Cub's sale is a bit intimidating to a new buyer.

Time to move to a salary cap. I live baseball but at times I detest the current MLB.

1989
06-25-2009, 12:20 AM
That's why MLB takes a backseat to the NBA and NFL.
If those sports were in a baseball world, Cleveland doesn't get to keep Lebron James, Peyton Manning doesn't stay in Indy.

I think the real idiots in MLB are the owners. 1) they approve of Butt Selig 2) they have no problem with the caste system

MLB has become a sport where fans determine how good their team will be based on how much money is spent. For some fans that leaves no hope.

Hopefully without the steroid era out of the way, teams will mean a bit more than individuals and the Steinbrenner model of team building will lose interest among fans.

I'm wouldn't be a bit surprised that the payroll part of the Cub's sale is a bit intimidating to a new buyer.

Time to move to a salary cap. I live baseball but at times I detest the current MLB.


Baseball does not take a backseat to the NBA. Maybe you like the NBA more, which is fine; but the MLB is a superior league to the NBA.

Rohan
06-25-2009, 12:26 AM
That's why MLB takes a backseat to the NBA and NFL.
If those sports were in a baseball world, Cleveland doesn't get to keep Lebron James, Peyton Manning doesn't stay in Indy.

I think the real idiots in MLB are the owners. 1) they approve of Butt Selig 2) they have no problem with the caste system

MLB has become a sport where fans determine how good their team will be based on how much money is spent. For some fans that leaves no hope.

Hopefully without the steroid era out of the way, teams will mean a bit more than individuals and the Steinbrenner model of team building will lose interest among fans.

I'm wouldn't be a bit surprised that the payroll part of the Cub's sale is a bit intimidating to a new buyer.

Time to move to a salary cap. I live baseball but at times I detest the current MLB.

You really are crazy if you think the MLB takes any sort of backseat to the NBA. The NBA has become quite the joke and the league is chalk full of flaws.

kitekrazy
06-25-2009, 03:58 AM
Baseball does not take a backseat to the NBA. Maybe you like the NBA more, which is fine; but the MLB is a superior league to the NBA.

The NBA is much more popular than MLB. There must be a reason why corporations look to the NFL, NBA athletes for endorsements. You seems to have missed a point. Read some of the previous posts (Tragg, TDog).

kitekrazy
06-25-2009, 04:08 AM
You really are crazy if you think the MLB takes any sort of backseat to the NBA. The NBA has become quite the joke and the league is chalk full of flaws.

Please introduce me to your crack dealer. I guess you don't consider a league that fans question if the stats are legit or tainted by steroids a joke and full of flaws?

So are you going to tell me ShamMe really hit all of those home runs?

NorthSideSox72
06-25-2009, 10:08 AM
The NBA is much more popular than MLB. There must be a reason why corporations look to the NFL, NBA athletes for endorsements. You seems to have missed a point. Read some of the previous posts (Tragg, TDog).

If you like the NBA better, as others have said, that's all good. But MLB is a far more popular league than the NBA. NFL and MLB have gone back and forth over recent decades in who holds the #1 spot, but the NBA, even in Jordan's heyday, wasn't in that leauge (figuratively speaking). NFL and MLB make more revenue by a good margin, and in fact baseball is number one in merchandise revenue. Baseball draws far more fans than basketball. Pretty much in any measure you look at, NBA is 3rd on the list.

TDog
06-25-2009, 10:13 AM
The NBA is much more popular than MLB. There must be a reason why corporations look to the NFL, NBA athletes for endorsements. You seems to have missed a point. Read some of the previous posts (Tragg, TDog).

The NBA is not more popular than Major League Baseball. It is played in some smaller markets. Sacramento and Oklahoma (of all places) have NBA teams, but, in part that's because there wasn't enough interest in supporting a team in Seattle.

Basketball is a much easier sport to play. What Michael Jordan did with his athletic ability is not as difficult as what Torii Hunter regularly does in centerfield. A player gets more mileage out of athleticism in basketball than in baseball. Basketball highlights often have more to do with athleticism than the outcome. The NBA teams and the players' union do a much better job of marketing individual stars than baseball does. What marketing demands, of course, is what Sammy Sosa and Mark McGwire provided.

Watching basketball can be a tedious thing, but you have more kids growing up playing it. You can play basketball in a smaller space with fewer people. Baseball is much more a sport that requires development of skills in addition to athletic abilities. Some very good hitters never even develop athletic abilities. But basketball is a smaller sport in every way.

Tragg is right about poor teams not being raided by the rich teams that often. I think the actual selling off of players isn't the only problem. It is the commentators talking about who the non-contenders need to trade every year and fans buying into the fact that because their team is not contending in a given year, they should trade their veterans.

I used to hear people in the media talking, not about why the White Sox should trade Frank Thomas, but that it was inevitable they would trade Frank Thomas. A couple of weekends ago, I heard the former failed Mets GM on the radio talking about how the White Sox will probably be selling at the deadline and the Cubs would be buying, and I live in Northern California.

Whether the White Sox contended every year, as a fan f the team, I'm happy they never traded Frank Thomas, although he ended up leaving at the end of his contract. The same applies for Magglio Ordonez. If it were only about winning, I wouldn't be a White Sox fan.

A salary cap might homogenize baseball the way it does other sports. It doesn't make the NBA a more popular league. It helps the league survive in small markets, but since the salary cap was first imposed (the league would have shut down without it), more NBA than baseball franchises have relocated.

asindc
06-25-2009, 10:14 AM
If you like the NBA better, as others have said, that's all good. But MLB is a far more popular league than the NBA. NFL and MLB have gone back and forth over recent decades in who holds the #1 spot, but the NBA, even in Jordan's heyday, wasn't in that leauge (figuratively speaking). NFL and MLB make more revenue by a good margin, and in fact baseball is number one in merchandise revenue. Baseball draws far more fans than basketball. Pretty much in any measure you look at, NBA is 3rd on the list.

All of what you say is true... as long as you confine it to the North American market. Worldwide, NBA kicks everybody's ass with the exception of the English Premier (soccer) League.

NorthSideSox72
06-25-2009, 10:17 AM
All of what you say is true... as long as you confine it to the North American market. Worldwide, NBA kicks everybody's ass with the exception of the English Premier (soccer) League.
True, I was looking purely at the US. Baseball and "Football" suffer overseas, baseketball eclipses them both outside the US (and Latin America + Japan, in baseball's case).

WhiteSoxFTW
06-25-2009, 10:29 AM
Bowie also voided a later deal when Finley sent Blue to the Reds for 100,000 and Dave Revering.

And the original trading deadline at least through the mid 80's was June 15th.

Those were the dates the Sox got players at the last minute like Chet Lemon, Ed Farmer and Julio Cruz.

Lip

Now there is a Sox name that you don't hear very much. I have a signed Julio Cruz game bat (my Dad was in the locker room talking to him and he went back to the dugout and got it for him) in my room. When I was younger, I used to go to sleep with it at night when my parents were out late.

khan
06-25-2009, 10:45 AM
Basketball is a much easier sport to play.
Disagreed.

What Michael Jordan did with his athletic ability is not as difficult as what Torii Hunter regularly does in centerfield.
STRONGLY disagreed, even though I like baseball MUCH, much more than basketball.

Basketball highlights often have more to do with athleticism than the outcome.
While this is true, baseball highlights ALSO often have more to do with athleticism than the outcome. [As in the cases of steroid-induced home runs.]

Baseball is much more a sport that requires development of skills in addition to athletic abilities. Some very good hitters never even develop athletic abilities. But basketball is a smaller sport in every way.
Not in height, anyway. And again, though I'm not much of a basketball fan, it is most certainly a sport that requires skill as well as athleticism. Otherwise, an athlete like Tyrus Thomas would dominate based on athleticism alone.

A salary cap might homogenize baseball the way it does other sports.
A salary cap, or at least a rookie salary cap with an international draft might also help make baseball MORE popular, too. We don't know for sure. But I'm guessing that fans of teams like ****tsburg, KC, and other small market teams would draw better if they had a snowball's chance in hell.

asindc
06-25-2009, 11:10 AM
The NBA is not more popular than Major League Baseball. It is played in some smaller markets. Sacramento and Oklahoma (of all places) have NBA teams, but, in part that's because there wasn't enough interest in supporting a team in Seattle.

Basketball is a much easier sport to play. What Michael Jordan did with his athletic ability is not as difficult as what Torii Hunter regularly does in centerfield. A player gets more mileage out of athleticism in basketball than in baseball. Basketball highlights often have more to do with athleticism than the outcome. The NBA teams and the players' union do a much better job of marketing individual stars than baseball does. What marketing demands, of course, is what Sammy Sosa and Mark McGwire provided.

Watching basketball can be a tedious thing, but you have more kids growing up playing it. You can play basketball in a smaller space with fewer people. Baseball is much more a sport that requires development of skills in addition to athletic abilities. Some very good hitters never even develop athletic abilities. But basketball is a smaller sport in every way.

1) If you really think Seattle did not support its basketball team, read Bill Simmons' (ESPN Page 2 columnist) excellent coverage of how the team was relocated. I assure you, lack of support was not one of the real reasons why, just one of the reasons given.

2) Baseball skills are tougher to learn and become proficient at, but basketball skills are just as tough to master once you get beyond the fundamental level. Roughly translated, almost anyone can dribble and shoot, while fewer can hit and field, but only an elite few can master the skills in either sport well enough to play even NCAA Division I.

3) Whether basketball is tedious or not depends on your taste for it. The Sox is my favorite team in all of sports, but the NCAA Men's Basketball Tournament is my favorite sporting event. If you think the Big Dance is tedious, well... you just don't like basketball all that much.

palehozenychicty
06-25-2009, 11:18 AM
The NBA is not more popular than Major League Baseball. It is played in some smaller markets. Sacramento and Oklahoma (of all places) have NBA teams, but, in part that's because there wasn't enough interest in supporting a team in Seattle.

Basketball is a much easier sport to play. What Michael Jordan did with his athletic ability is not as difficult as what Torii Hunter regularly does in centerfield. A player gets more mileage out of athleticism in basketball than in baseball. Basketball highlights often have more to do with athleticism than the outcome. The NBA teams and the players' union do a much better job of marketing individual stars than baseball does. What marketing demands, of course, is what Sammy Sosa and Mark McGwire provided.

Watching basketball can be a tedious thing, but you have more kids growing up playing it. You can play basketball in a smaller space with fewer people. Baseball is much more a sport that requires development of skills in addition to athletic abilities. Some very good hitters never even develop athletic abilities. But basketball is a smaller sport in every way.

Tragg is right about poor teams not being raided by the rich teams that often. I think the actual selling off of players isn't the only problem. It is the commentators talking about who the non-contenders need to trade every year and fans buying into the fact that because their team is not contending in a given year, they should trade their veterans.

I used to hear people in the media talking, not about why the White Sox should trade Frank Thomas, but that it was inevitable they would trade Frank Thomas. A couple of weekends ago, I heard the former failed Mets GM on the radio talking about how the White Sox will probably be selling at the deadline and the Cubs would be buying, and I live in Northern California.

Whether the White Sox contended every year, as a fan f the team, I'm happy they never traded Frank Thomas, although he ended up leaving at the end of his contract. The same applies for Magglio Ordonez. If it were only about winning, I wouldn't be a White Sox fan.

A salary cap might homogenize baseball the way it does other sports. It doesn't make the NBA a more popular league. It helps the league survive in small markets, but since the salary cap was first imposed (the league would have shut down without it), more NBA than baseball franchises have relocated.


C'mon now. We know that you don't like basketball and football. You seem to make it clear in every post. But I'm not buying this quote. Sorry. It's a complete disrespect and trivialization of a great athlete's achievements. As a White Sox fan, it's funny that you champion Torri Hunter anyway. :tongue: I can't stand him.

Back to the topic....As someone mentioned earlier, the NBA has been running out international tours for years and draws revenue from every single continent, aside from Antartica. Baseball is starting to do this through Selig's much-loathed WBC. The Pirates signed two former cricket players from India and will groom them as pitchers.

Baseball may do better in the states right now, but globally, people don't know that it exists. You may say that you don't care, but that doesn't decide a thing. Majority discourse rules in this world, and if the people want more LeBron than Ryan Howard, then the money follows that.

The bottom line is that more people may be attending baseball games due to their relative affordability against the other leagues, but fewer and fewer people are playing it domestically. Many stars are coming from outside the fifty states. Children in many neighborhoods don't have the spaces, financing, or community structure to play baseball. The RBI program has done a decent job in addressing this, but they have a way to go.

Each sport has its strengths and weaknesses in attracting the entertainment dollar. The NBA doesn't draw as well domestically or on television, but the game itself is always discussed among people of all backgrounds and lifestyles. It translates globally as well due to its demand for continual motion. Baseball is steeped in its traditions that are passed down from generations onward, which draws families across the country. It draws well in the major markets and has improved numbers in the smaller markets as well with newer facilities. But the game doesn't appeal as much to the coveted age market of 18-36 due to its slower nature and subtleties. It's just today's reality.

asindc
06-25-2009, 11:33 AM
Disagreed.


STRONGLY disagreed, even though I like baseball MUCH, much more than basketball.


While this is true, baseball highlights ALSO often have more to do with athleticism than the outcome. [As in the cases of steroid-induced home runs.]


Not in height, anyway. And again, though I'm not much of a basketball fan, it is most certainly a sport that requires skill as well as athleticism. Otherwise, an athlete like Tyrus Thomas would dominate based on athleticism alone.


A salary cap, or at least a rookie salary cap with an international draft might also help make baseball MORE popular, too. We don't know for sure. But I'm guessing that fans of teams like ****tsburg, KC, and other small market teams would draw better if they had a snowball's chance in hell.

Excellent example. Tyrus Thomas, aka Stromile Swift 2.0.

Huisj
06-25-2009, 12:05 PM
Has that really been happening much lately, outside of Pittsburg?
Beane does it, but that really seems to be out of choice - he seems to take delight in it.
And at some point the "vicious circle" needs to be recognized - the lack of winning perpetuates the lack of money. Cleveland and Toronto had full stadiums - then they intentionally dispersed.

I think I agree with you on moving the trade dealine to July 1 or so.

This decade, 14 different teams have been to the world series. That's pretty stinking impressive. If you're smart and run your organization well, you can win in baseball.

jabrch
06-25-2009, 12:10 PM
The worst way to figure out what Kenny is thinking is to listen to what Kenny is saying.

Jurr
06-25-2009, 12:49 PM
The worst way to figure out what Kenny is thinking is to listen to what Kenny is saying.

True, true. Alls I knows is this team better start stringing together some dadgum wins or selling might be the best option.

Jim Shorts
06-25-2009, 12:58 PM
The worst way to figure out what Kenny is thinking is to listen to what Kenny is saying.

I'm not sure there's been a more truthful post anywhere on WSI.

I like Kenny, but he's equal parts politician and sales pitch.

TDog
06-25-2009, 01:28 PM
C'mon now. We know that you don't like basketball and football. You seem to make it clear in every post. But I'm not buying this quote. Sorry. It's a complete disrespect and trivialization of a great athlete's achievements. As a White Sox fan, it's funny that you champion Torri Hunter anyway. :tongue: I can't stand him. ...

The people arguing for a baseball salary cap make me laugh. But it's not happening, and, really, it's not worth worrying about.

Torii Hunter is a very good defensive outfielder. The fact that he didn't sign with the White Sox when given the opportunity doesn't change that. He isn't the athlete Michael Jordan was, but Michael Jordan wasn't nearly the outfielder Torii Hunter is. Given time, Jordan could have developed the skills necessary to do what Hunter does, to judge where a ball will land as it is being hit.

Michael Jordan may have been the greatest basketball player who ever lived. And he could play baseball. He hit a home run for Birmingham. I would love to be good enough to hit a home run for Birmingham. But Joe Borchard was a better baseball player than Michael Jordan.

Shooting is a solitary skill that basketball players develop. You have control of the ball in one way or another when you shoot. There is athleticism involved in getting to the shot. Hitting isn't athleticism. It is a skill. Ted Williams broke down the physics in The Science of Hitting. A hitter isn't in control of the ball before hitting it. You don't have to necessarily hit the ball well to get on base, but you have to hit it. Hit the crap out of the ball, and it still can be caught.

Hitting is so difficult that even two of the greatest hitters who ever lived -- Babe Ruth and Ted Williams -- only got hits in about 34 percent of their at bats over their careers. (There is a story in Ball Four about Ted Williams' placekicking abilities, so you could label football kicking as something that requires more skill than athleticism.) Ty Cobb got hits less than 37 percent of his at bats, and no one with any sort of substantial career has even comes close. Other sports stress offensive teamwork with screens and blocks and passes and getting go-to guys open for good looks. Hitters do it alone.

I coached junior high school baseball long ago when I was a teacher. I had a couple of very good pitchers and a couple of very good hitters who weren't athletes. You even see some of that at the major leagues. John Kruk wasn't speaking for all baseball players when he told a woman at an airport that he was a baseball player, not an athlete. But he was just a skilled hitter.

It helps if you're an athlete, although I don't know if it would have made Britt Burns a better pitcher. But if you are a great athlete, baseball is a more difficult sport to pick up. It is one of the reasons why more kids aren't playing baseball. And it's certainly true that playing a game heightens your appreciation for it. I would have loved to have seen baseball embrace Michael Jordan and develop him into a star because I think it would have helped the sport.

jabrch
06-25-2009, 01:51 PM
I'm not sure there's been a more truthful post anywhere on WSI.

I like Kenny, but he's equal parts politician and sales pitch.


And one part illusionist...Slight of hand...misdirection...bluffing....all of it is in KW's bag of tricks.

jabrch
06-25-2009, 01:53 PM
True, true. Alls I knows is this team better start stringing together some dadgum wins or selling might be the best option.

It very well may end up the best option - and I am totally cool with that if we go that route. But we probably won't see it coming - KW won't telegraph his moves if he can avoid them. And usually when he does telegraph a move (Hudson and Figgins are both good examples) those moves don't happen.

soxfanreggie
06-25-2009, 03:51 PM
If the thought is that teams won't take on players because of salary, do we then think there will be a lot more players clearing waivers to be able to still be traded after the trade deadline?

I would think that we'd have a lot of players clearing waivers at the end of the year.

kitekrazy
06-25-2009, 03:53 PM
C'mon now. We know that you don't like basketball and football. You seem to make it clear in every post. But I'm not buying this quote. Sorry. It's a complete disrespect and trivialization of a great athlete's achievements. As a White Sox fan, it's funny that you champion Torri Hunter anyway. :tongue: I can't stand him.

Back to the topic....As someone mentioned earlier, the NBA has been running out international tours for years and draws revenue from every single continent, aside from Antartica. Baseball is starting to do this through Selig's much-loathed WBC. The Pirates signed two former cricket players from India and will groom them as pitchers.

Baseball may do better in the states right now, but globally, people don't know that it exists. You may say that you don't care, but that doesn't decide a thing. Majority discourse rules in this world, and if the people want more LeBron than Ryan Howard, then the money follows that.

The bottom line is that more people may be attending baseball games due to their relative affordability against the other leagues, but fewer and fewer people are playing it domestically. Many stars are coming from outside the fifty states. Children in many neighborhoods don't have the spaces, financing, or community structure to play baseball. The RBI program has done a decent job in addressing this, but they have a way to go.

Each sport has its strengths and weaknesses in attracting the entertainment dollar. The NBA doesn't draw as well domestically or on television, but the game itself is always discussed among people of all backgrounds and lifestyles. It translates globally as well due to its demand for continual motion. Baseball is steeped in its traditions that are passed down from generations onward, which draws families across the country. It draws well in the major markets and has improved numbers in the smaller markets as well with newer facilities. But the game doesn't appeal as much to the coveted age market of 18-36 due to its slower nature and subtleties. It's just today's reality.

Baseball was an international sport long before the NBA.
Basketball has more international appeal because it can be played year round, indoor/outdoor. Basketball doesn't need the dimensions other sports need.

Baseball is the ultimate sport for the radio and it's hard to beat being at the ballpark.

The NFL is much better on TV (except when it's on ESPN).

The NBA allows fans to be much closer to the players on the court. In this day I don't think it is a good thing the way fans behave.

Hockey is one of those games that's hard to narrate even on TV.