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Sad
06-03-2002, 09:57 AM
:graff

EVERY day...
rotate him between 3B, 2B, and SS
(granted Royce is a vacuum cleaner at SS...)

What more is there for Crede to prove in AAA?
These errors are KILLING us and Jose's (and Lee's for that matter) bats just aint making up for it like in the past...

and why the hell can't Frank get a hit when it counts?!

time to shake things up :angry:
this is starting to affect my health and overall good nature...

Kilroy
06-03-2002, 10:19 AM
Originally posted by Sad

What more is there for Crede to prove in AAA?
These errors are KILLING us and Jose's (and Lee's for that matter) bats just aint making up for it like in the past...

and why the hell can't Frank get a hit when it counts?!

time to shake things up :angry:
this is starting to affect my health and overall good nature...

Well, just don't single out Frank. I think Konerko grounded pretty weakly to 3rd w/ the bases loaded yesterday. There's been many chances for all these guys and they haven't gotten it done.

As far as Graffanino, he's not exactly a virtuoso with the mitt either. His 6 errors this year in limited action don't enstill confidence.

And you're exactly right about Jose. His bat isn't making up for his fielding this year, and now, he's popping off about the pitching.

In case you missed it, he had a few words about Ritchie the other day, saying that if he'd just made a pitch after his error and Ray's, everything would have been fine. Umm, no. How about you pick up the ball and not throw it into the stands? How bout Ray just catch that toss from Royce? Ritchie made the pitch that got the ground ball.

soxrme
06-03-2002, 11:44 AM
I like Clayton in the field. We could hide his hitting better if Jose was hitting. I think it is about Crede time. However, my biggest gripe is Durham. Where the hell is his head??? Stikeouts, errors. stupid base running. Put Crede and Harris on the same plane and get them here soon. Don't we have a decent fielding shortstop in the minors who can hit 220? Where are all these supposed great draft choices? :angry:

Iwritecode
06-03-2002, 11:50 AM
Originally posted by soxrme
Don't we have a decent fielding shortstop in the minors who can hit 220? Where are all these supposed great draft choices? :angry:

Actually, we have one in the majors. Check third base...

PaleHoseGeorge
06-03-2002, 12:16 PM
Originally posted by soxrme
I like Clayton in the field. We could hide his hitting better if Jose was hitting. I think it is about Crede time....

Can we agree on at least one thing around here: in baseball, there is no way to "hide" someone's lousy bat.

The problem is the rule that says every batter must take a turn in order before the first batter gets another at-bat.

Thus AT BEST, the WORST hitter in the line up WILL GET no more than ONE FEWER at-bat than the BEST hitter in the lineup. You can't get around this--unless the worst hitter gets pinch hit for--something our manager refuses to do, even when we're trailing late in a game.

I'm almost excited to watch Manuel do the math for his lineup during interleague road games. He already has the equivalent of a pitcher batting in his lineup. Will he add another?

I was only half-joking when I suggested putting Royce on the bump. Our lineup will be a disgrace with him and a pitcher taking at-bats.

Manuel's limitations as a strategic thinker are about to be revealed--again.

voodoochile
06-03-2002, 12:28 PM
Originally posted by PaleHoseGeorge


Can we agree on at least one thing around here: in baseball, there is no way to "hide" someone's lousy bat.

The problem is the rule that says every batter must take a turn in order before the first batter gets another at-bat.

Thus AT BEST, the WORST hitter in the line up WILL GET no more than ONE FEWER at-bat than the BEST hitter in the lineup. You can't get around this--unless the worst hitter gets pinch hit for--something our manager refuses to do, even when we're trailing late in a game.

I'm almost excited to watch Manuel do the math for his lineup during interleague road games. He already has the equivalent of a pitcher batting in his lineup. Will he add another?

I was only half-joking when I suggested putting Royce on the bump. Our lineup will be a disgrace with him and a pitcher taking at-bats.

Manuel's limitations as a strategic thinker are about to be revealed--again.

Interestingly enoug, yesterday was the first time in a long time that Manuel has basically used the opening day lineup (except Graffy for Jose who can't hit righthanded) and the team actually showed some life. Not a lot, but we did get the tying or go ahead run to-the-plate/on-base in both of the last two innings and if Franks line drive is 2 feet more toward center, the game is tied with Maggs coming up.

Jerry needs to stop tinkering so damn much with the lineup for starters. Let people play everyday at a given position and a given lineup slot and see how things go.

PHG was right when he pointed out recently that the Sox troubles started when JM started messing with the lineup. Leave the offense alone, it is the one thing on this team that will be semi-consistent over the course of the season (okay, Buehrle too...)

oldcomiskey
06-03-2002, 03:07 PM
Originally posted by Sad
:graff

EVERY day...
rotate him between 3B, 2B, and SS
(granted Royce is a vacuum cleaner at SS...)

What more is there for Crede to prove in AAA?
These errors are KILLING us and Jose's (and Lee's for that matter) bats just aint making up for it like in the past...

and why the hell can't Frank get a hit when it counts?!

time to shake things up :angry:
this is starting to affect my health and overall good nature...

well youre correct in your assumption that royce is a vacuum cleaner--he sure does suck alot

LongDistanceFan
06-03-2002, 04:13 PM
Originally posted by Sad

(granted Royce is a vacuum cleaner at SS...)

a vacuum cleaner??????????

kevingrt
06-03-2002, 04:34 PM
New League for the White Sox needs a DF= Designated Fielder

MisterB
06-03-2002, 07:33 PM
Originally posted by voodoochile

Interestingly enoug, yesterday was the first time in a long time that Manuel has basically used the opening day lineup (except Graffy for Jose who can't hit righthanded) and the team actually showed some life.

<snip>

Jerry needs to stop tinkering so damn much with the lineup for starters. Let people play everyday at a given position and a given lineup slot and see how things go.

PHG was right when he pointed out recently that the Sox troubles started when JM started messing with the lineup. Leave the offense alone, it is the one thing on this team that will be semi-consistent over the course of the season (okay, Buehrle too...)

Hmm...The lineup has been fairly steady this season. The only major change since opening day was dropping Frank to the 5th slot (3 weeks ago), and the only other 'messing' with the lineup was the Lee/Liefer/Rowand shuffle in LF. Most other changes have been for giving guys days off, getting a better matchup vs. a tough pitcher (Valentin usually) or covering for an injury. JM hasn't been torquing it over like early last season. Except for moving Frank, 1-5 in the lineup (which has provided most of the offense this season) has pretty much stayed put.

PaleHoseGeorge
06-03-2002, 07:59 PM
Originally posted by MisterB
Hmm...The lineup has been fairly steady this season. The only major change since opening day was dropping Frank to the 5th slot (3 weeks ago), and the only other 'messing' with the lineup was the Lee/Liefer/Rowand shuffle in LF. Most other changes have been for giving guys days off, getting a better matchup vs. a tough pitcher (Valentin usually) or covering for an injury. JM hasn't been torquing it over like early last season. Except for moving Frank, 1-5 in the lineup (which has provided most of the offense this season) has pretty much stayed put.

Besides just four changes you noted, you forgot Manuel moving Durham to #7 early in May. And Manuel moving Ordonez up to #3--which coincided with his new slump. And Graffanino playing 3B and 2B, and batting #2, #7, and #8.

And you forgot to mention that all of these changes happened in May, after the Sox offense led the majors in offensive production for the month of April.

Other than that, you make some valid points.

MisterB
06-03-2002, 10:33 PM
Originally posted by PaleHoseGeorge
Besides just four changes you noted, you forgot Manuel moving Durham to #7 early in May.

For one game.

And Manuel moving Ordonez up to #3--which coincided with his new slump.

Part and parcel of the Thomas move (Maggs learned to hit in the 3 hole last year, so this slump wasn't neccessarily expected)

And Graffanino playing 3B and 2B, and batting #2, #7, and #8.

Covered under 'giving guys days off, getting a better matchup vs. a tough pitcher or covering for an injury'. As a bench player, he's not guaranteed to have the same spot in the lineup every time he plays.

And you forgot to mention that all of these changes happened in May, after the Sox offense led the majors in offensive production for the month of April.

At the time Frank was dropped to 5th, the Sox were 5-7 for May and coming off a 4-game losing streak where they were limited to 8 runs total by some less-than-stellar pitchers. In the first game with the new lineup they scored 15, and went 7-4 before the current losing streak.

If the offense were as solid as you say, the rest of the lineup would make up for Maggs' current slump, but it hasn't. The Sox offense to this point is the top 5 batters, with the other 4 slots producing when the top produces, and not producing when the top does not (thus the Jeckyl & Hyde when it comes to scoring runs) & I can understand JM trying to jump-start the bottom of the lineup to prevent this type of thing from happening.

Other than the Thomas flip-flop (accent on flop ) the top 5 has been pretty much set.

Other than that, you make some valid points .

Other than that, it was a nice rebuttal. :D:

PaleHoseGeorge
06-03-2002, 10:40 PM
Was the original point that Jerry hasn't tinkered with the lineup? Based on your own response, I don't think there is much debate he is guilty as charged. He can't even use the injury excuse from 2001 to justify it.

We're talking about tinkering with what had been the top offense in the league.

But what do I know...

voodoochile
06-03-2002, 11:00 PM
Originally posted by PaleHoseGeorge
Was the original point that Jerry hasn't tinkered with the lineup? Based on your own response, I don't think there is much debate he is guilty as charged. He can't even use the injury excuse from 2001 to justify it.

We're talking about tinkering with what had been the top offense in the league.

But what do I know...

Well, see it's really not tinkering if the tinkers are for the benefit of the team. I mean, how can you call it a tinker when all he does is move people around and in and out of the lineup. I mean, you know what he means...

and by the way, the proper expression is "but what the hell does Daver know."

MisterB
06-03-2002, 11:48 PM
Originally posted by PaleHoseGeorge
Was the original point that Jerry hasn't tinkered with the lineup?

Not at all...

My points were:

1. VC kinda made it sound like JM was running a different lineup out there every night since opening day, when the productive members of the lineup weren't tinkered with until the 'Frank Flip' of 3 weeks ago.

2. JM was trying to get the bottom of the lineup to produce more consistently.

3. By the time JM tinkered with top of the lineup, the offenses of the Red Sox, Yankees, Mariners and Angels were catching up and surpassing us, and we were starting to lose games due to lack of offense.

Basically, JM's tinkering was in response to the offense slowing down. Obviously, it didn't help. JM didn't singlehandedly destroy the offense, he just managed to sandbag one that was already coming down on its own.

voodoochile
06-03-2002, 11:59 PM
Originally posted by MisterB


Not at all...

My points were:

1. VC kinda made it sound like JM was running a different lineup out there every night since opening day, when the productive members of the lineup weren't tinkered with until the 'Frank Flip' of 3 weeks ago.

I did?

PHG was right when he pointed out recently that the Sox troubles started when JM started messing with the lineup. Leave the offense alone, it is the one thing on this team that will be semi-consistent over the course of the season (okay, Buehrle too...)

Funny, that's not what I thought I said, my bad...