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Viva Magglio
06-03-2002, 07:21 AM
Sox GM Ken Williams went off on a few Sox veterans Sunday during batting practice. The players involved had completed batting practice early and then retired to the clubhouse. KW's heart was in the right place, but I think he may have actually been out of line. I would post the article from the Tribune site, but I don't want to register for it.

I have attended more BP sessions than I want to know. It is quite common for players on both teams taking BP to retire to the clubhouse when they are done with BP. While I certianly don't know all the details of what went on, it seems to be that KW engaged in nit-picking.

CerberusWG
06-03-2002, 07:55 AM
If it gets some fire in them, go for it.

alohafri
06-03-2002, 08:28 AM
If Lenny Williams wants to go off on somebody, he should be looking in the mirror when he does! He created this mess! Does anyone know his coat size? I could have my tailor make him a new overcoat made from cement.

Viva Magglio
06-03-2002, 09:10 AM
Dan Bernstein to KW: "Get your red ass out of the clubhouse. You do not belong there because you are undermining your field manager."

DrWatson27
06-03-2002, 09:13 AM
Maybe Lenny is FINALLY feeling some heat, one can only hope is job is on the line!

foulkesfan11
06-03-2002, 09:41 AM
Why are you guys calling Kenny "Lenny"? Did I miss something? I hope his job is on the line, though, I think Manuel would go before him. Something needs to be done and soon!

SoxxoS
06-03-2002, 10:09 AM
Why couldn't he take his frustrations out on Nardi, like he did with Von Joshua last year?





:firenardi

RKMeibalane
06-03-2002, 11:02 AM
Williams would never fire Nardi. We aren't that lucky.

I can understand Kenny's frustration, but he brought a lot of this on himself by accquiring people who, quite frankly, aren't cut out to be full-time players. He was the one who traded for Royce Clayton, lacking the foresight necessary to know that no one else would be interested in taking the light-hitting infield off the Sox's hands. He was also the one who traded Kip Wells and Josh Fogg to the Pirates for Ritchie, and that hasn't worked out at all to this point.

I hope Reinsdorf doesn't fire Manuel. He has done solid job during his time with the Sox, and I think it would be wrong to fire him when there are others who keep their jobs, despite the fact that they aren't good at what they do (i.e. Jerry Krause).

moochpuppy
06-03-2002, 11:14 AM
Originally posted by RKMeibalane


I hope Reinsdorf doesn't fire Manuel. He has done solid job during his time with the Sox, and I think it would be wrong to fire him when there are others who keep their jobs, despite the fact that they aren't good at what they do (i.e. Jerry Krause).

Manuel will be the first to go. Look at what they did with Gene Lamont. He had a .551 winning percentage in 3 plus seasons (258-210) and he gets canned in favor of Berry Tevington. :gulp:

CubKilla
06-03-2002, 11:15 AM
You forgot Sean Lowe in the Ritchie debacle RKM :smile: . But you made the best point in regards to why Kenny Williams will never feel any heat from Reinsdorf over this..... Jerry Krause. Reinsdorf will fire JM, Nardi, Nosek, Pettis, Johnson,etc. before placing blame on the guy who's responsible.

Procol Harum
06-03-2002, 11:20 AM
Williams is absolutely over the line with this sort of thing--it's not the job of the general manager to be following players and checking out their pre-game routine. That would normally be the manager's job (which is another post). I would think that with the draft coming up KW would have more than enough other things to be doing away from the field instead of creating paranoia in the clubhouse of a skidding ballclub. Actually, the fact that KW might not be paying enough attention to the draft may actually work to our favor: he might not screw it up like almost everything (save the bargain basement acquisition of Kenny Lofton) else he has done. This guy desprately needs to be fired, but don't expect anything that bold from Reinsdorf's fortress-mentality mindset.
:reinsy
"Kenny is my choice as GM--those who criticize him do so because they are the spawn of Satan."

Kilroy
06-03-2002, 11:26 AM
Originally posted by Procol Harum
Williams is absolutely over the line with this sort of thing--it's not the job of the general manager to be following players and checking out their pre-game routine.

If Lenny was gonna chew someone out, he shoulda been talking to Manuel and no one else. That's called a chain of command. No, this isn't the army, but its the way things are done.

alohafri
06-03-2002, 12:28 PM
Originally posted by foulkesfan11
Why are you guys calling Kenny "Lenny"? Did I miss something? I hope his job is on the line, though, I think Manuel would go before him. Something needs to be done and soon!

:KW Do I get to tend the White Sox, Jerry?

We started calling Kenny Williams "Lenny" on another message board and it has caught on like wildfire. The decisions made by Williams makes me think that he is actually Lenny from "Of Mice and Men."

CLR01
06-03-2002, 01:04 PM
Originally posted by Procol Harum
Williams is absolutely over the line with this sort of thing--it's not the job of the general manager to be following players and checking out their pre-game routine. That would normally be the manager's job (which is another post). I would think that with the draft coming up KW would have more than enough other things to be doing away from the field instead of creating paranoia in the clubhouse of a skidding ballclub. Actually, the fact that KW might not be paying enough attention to the draft may actually work to our favor: he might not screw it up like almost everything (save the bargain basement acquisition of Kenny Lofton) else he has done. This guy desprately needs to be fired, but don't expect anything that bold from Reinsdorf's fortress-mentality mindset.
:reinsy
"Kenny is my choice as GM--those who criticize him do so because they are the spawn of Satan."


He is not out of line. As GM he can go where ever and lay into any one in the organization he wants except for the owners. Does he have more important things do do? OFcourse but maybe he had a few minutes free and decided to go down and watch the players. The way they are hitting they should be taking extra BP, if they dont want to do that practice their baserunning. Who were the guys he went of on? Was Royce one of them?

Procol Harum
06-03-2002, 01:46 PM
Originally posted by CLR01

He is not out of line. As GM he can go where ever and lay into any one in the organization he wants except for the owners. Does he have more important things do do? OFcourse but maybe he had a few minutes free and decided to go down and watch the players. The way they are hitting they should be taking extra BP, if they dont want to do that practice their baserunning. Who were the guys he went of on? Was Royce one of them?

Technically, yes. But I'll stand by the assessment that typical baseball protocol would have this be the role of the manager--it's his job to actually deal with and control the clubhouse and the on-the-field doings. Lenny's stepped over the line. Last year didn't he come in one time and destroy the post-game spread or somesuch nonsense? Think of it in terms of the atmosphere it is creating in a clubhouse that seems to already be troubled--rampant paranoia on top of a major bout of scuffling. No good can come out of a general manager inserting himself personally into this sort of stuff.

Paulwny
06-03-2002, 01:50 PM
Originally posted by CLR01



He is not out of line. As GM he can go where ever and lay into any one in the organization he wants except for the owners. Does he have more important things do do? OFcourse but maybe he had a few minutes free and decided to go down and watch the players. The way they are hitting they should be taking extra BP, if they dont want to do that practice their baserunning. Who were the guys he went of on? Was Royce one of them?

If KW needs to tell players to take extra bp or fielding, then what the hell are JM and the other coaches doing, isn't that their job?
KW should have spoken to JM and allow him to handle it.
I agree with Kilroy, there is a chain of command.

LuvChiSox
06-03-2002, 04:03 PM
KW makes some of the worst trades in recent memory and forces the lot onto JM...and no one can convince me that JM wants to put the choice out there every day...

KW looks like the total fool that he is. Makes it worse by taking out his frustrations on the players, instead of owning up to his mistakes. Are we the only ones who can see it?

LongDistanceFan
06-03-2002, 05:10 PM
i agree with most who said that kw was out of line by doing what he did........... even as gm, he can go anywhere and give advice to the coach where some coaches will tell him to shut the fvvck up..... some of the best coaches have done that............ and i will as far as mike kennan of the blackhawks telling pully that.

a gm should not say anything to the players that resembles a yelling at........ classless.

Randar68
06-03-2002, 05:28 PM
Originally posted by LuvChiSox
KW makes some of the worst trades in recent memory and forces the lot onto JM...and no one can convince me that JM wants to put the choice out there every day...

KW looks like the total fool that he is. Makes it worse by taking out his frustrations on the players, instead of owning up to his mistakes. Are we the only ones who can see it?

*** are you people crying about? If you don't think we should be 5 games up on Minnesota right now with the talent we have HERE, NOW, you are nuts!!!

Is that Kenny's job? No, It's Jerry, Gary, and Nardi's, and they ain't getting it done.

End of freaking story. Cry for a trade, get one, and then cry about that one. You are all just looking for a freaking excuse to cry!

Randar68
06-03-2002, 05:29 PM
Originally posted by LongDistanceFan
i agree with most who said that kw was out of line by doing what he did........... even as gm, he can go anywhere and give advice to the coach where some coaches will tell him to shut the fvvck up..... some of the best coaches have done that............ and i will as far as mike kennan of the blackhawks telling pully that.

a gm should not say anything to the players that resembles a yelling at........ classless.

Uhhh, Schu had serious talks with Veterans of his teams on more than one occassion that were not too different than this.

Get over it.

Jerry_Manuel
06-03-2002, 05:38 PM
Originally posted by Randar68
*** are you people crying about? If you don't think we should be 5 games up on Minnesota right now with the talent we have HERE, NOW, you are nuts!!!

Is that Kenny's job? No, It's Jerry, Gary, and Nardi's, and they ain't getting it done.

End of freaking story. Cry for a trade, get one, and then cry about that one. You are all just looking for a freaking excuse to cry!

Thank you, Randar.

Randar68
06-03-2002, 05:40 PM
Originally posted by Jerry_Manuel


Thank you, Randar.

I can barely even come on this board after a loss. Some of the people here make me sick.... :whiner: :whiner: :whiner: :whiner: :whiner: :whiner: :whiner:
:whiner:

Jerry_Manuel
06-03-2002, 05:45 PM
Originally posted by Randar68
I can barely even come on this board after a loss. Some of the people here make me sick.... :whiner: :whiner: :whiner: :whiner: :whiner: :whiner: :whiner:
:whiner:

I hear ya, it's tough. Hopefully, the team starts winning so we don't have to deal with this crap.

Randar68
06-03-2002, 05:57 PM
Originally posted by Jerry_Manuel


I hear ya, it's tough. Hopefully, the team starts winning so we don't have to deal with this crap.

Thank God for the draft, I'm just glad I don't have to pay too close attention to all this trash right now...



ahhhhh, draft.......relax.........niiiiiice.....

Procol Harum
06-03-2002, 06:16 PM
Originally posted by Jerry_Manuel

I hear ya, it's tough. Hopefully, the team starts winning so we don't have to deal with this crap.

Say, JM--since when did you join the Optimism Brigade, Little Mr. "Minnesota Will Win the Central" Division Boy ??(for reference, see the predictions that used to be under your sig) That hardly seems like the ruminations of someone who thinks all was well in WhiteSoxLand. And that was a month before the season had even started. Or does one have to prove their Sox fan orthodoxy by grinning and bearing mediocrity?

RedPinStripes
06-03-2002, 06:19 PM
I don't think it was was classless or anything, i think he should have laid into the whole coaching staff first though and hit em hard with hell.

Did anyone expect KW to go around kissing everyone's ass after losing 7 in a row?

Jerry_Manuel
06-03-2002, 06:25 PM
Originally posted by Procol Harum
Say, JM--since when did you join the Optimism Brigade, Little Mr. "Minnesota Will Win the Central" Division Boy ??(for reference, see the predictions that used to be under your sig) That hardly seems like the ruminations of someone who thinks all was well in WhiteSoxLand. And that was a month before the season had even started. Or does one have to prove their Sox fan orthodoxy by grinning and bearing mediocrity?

I still think that Minnesota will win the division, the difference is that I'm not hear after every loss screaming for people's heads.

RedPinStripes
06-03-2002, 06:27 PM
Originally posted by Jerry_Manuel


I still think that Minnesota will win the division, the difference is that I'm not hear after every loss screaming for people's heads.

Dammit JM! I thought you fell off that wagon? :D:

Procol Harum
06-03-2002, 06:28 PM
Originally posted by Jerry_Manuel

the difference is that I'm not hear after every loss screaming for people's heads.

What will it take to get you screaming for people's heads (if not the fact that this team can't overtake a mediocre, injury-plagued Minnesota team)?

Jerry_Manuel
06-03-2002, 06:34 PM
Originally posted by RedPinStripes
Dammit JM! I thought you fell off that wagon? :D:

Nah.


Originally posted by Procol Harum
What will it take to get you screaming for people's heads (if not the fact that this team can't overtake a mediocre, injury-plagued Minnesota team)?

Nothing short of Williams trading Borchard. Look, I can see that the team has problems. I know that Williams and Manuel have made bad decisions, but ranting doesn't help. I understand that's what a message board is for, but, it doesn't change matters.

LongDistanceFan
06-04-2002, 01:27 AM
Originally posted by Randar68


Uhhh, Schu had serious talks with Veterans of his teams on more than one occassion that were not too different than this.

Get over it. so does it make it better or proper of him doing it....... most manager want to manage without looking over there shoulder to see what the gm is going to do............ no manager want to be second guess or micro manage......... kw should've gone to the manager and coaches or fire them and find new ones.........

get it.

LongDistanceFan
06-04-2002, 01:29 AM
Originally posted by Jerry_Manuel


Thank you, Randar. jm have you not ask for changes as well????????

bring up crede, sit clayton or move jose to ss........ have you not asked for anyone of these scenario or something similar????

Randar68
06-04-2002, 01:31 AM
Originally posted by LongDistanceFan
so does it make it better or proper of him doing it....... most manager want to manage without looking over there shoulder to see what the gm is going to do............ no manager want to be second guess or micro manage......... kw should've gone to the manager and coaches or fire them and find new ones.........

get it.

Uhhhh, in the rest of the world, people in charge of personnel get to know and interject when necessary to get people's asses in gear.

I don't knwo what world this is not acceptable in, but when ***** goes bad, people from progressively higher positions seem to make their way around more frequently.

I don't see why this was an issue. It's clear Royce was a mistake on all parts...from reports, this is all that was going on...

Randar68
06-04-2002, 01:33 AM
Originally posted by LongDistanceFan
jm have you not ask for changes as well????????

bring up crede, sit clayton or move jose to ss........ have you not asked for anyone of these scenario or something similar????

I've been asking for the same, but people sit here and second-guess EVERY decision, of course in hindsight, and people freak out even if we lose one, for example...

Jon really got into trouble tonight in the 7th. I really wish he had kept his composure. Why DOES HE SUCK!?!?!? We should blow this team up because Jon gave up a couple late walks. I really can't stand our young/crappy/inconsistent pitching.... ARGGGGHHHHH!!!!!!

Now take out the teal, and you have the past week on this board...

LongDistanceFan
06-04-2002, 01:37 AM
Originally posted by Randar68


Uhhhh, in the rest of the world, people in charge of personnel get to know and interject when necessary to get people's asses in gear.

I don't knwo what world this is not acceptable in, but when ***** goes bad, people from progressively higher positions seem to make their way around more frequently.

I don't see why this was an issue. It's clear Royce was a mistake on all parts...from reports, this is all that was going on... that is kool...... but sports is not the real world....... you are dealing with million dollar babies and personalities......

but you should know that managers want to manage and deal with the way they are doing it.......... i have no problem what so ever for a gm to come down hard on the players but in the locker room......... not on the field...... but if he lost his confidence in his personal........ then replace them......

LongDistanceFan
06-04-2002, 01:40 AM
Originally posted by Randar68


I've been asking for the same, but people sit here and second-guess EVERY decision, of course in hindsight, and people freak out even if we lose one, for example...

Jon really got into trouble tonight in the 7th. I really wish he had kept his composure. Why DOES HE SUCK!?!?!? We should blow this team up because Jon gave up a couple late walks. I really can't stand our young/crappy/inconsistent pitching.... ARGGGGHHHHH!!!!!!

Now take out the teal, and you have the past week on this board... i understand what you are saying, but the monday morning coaching is part of being a fan........... even if its an overkill............. i was one of those who wanted changes as well, but i been harping on the same topic of royce, jose, lee, nardi to name a few............ what make me different from the others? or for that fact makes you different? you do the same.

LongDistanceFan
06-04-2002, 01:44 AM
Originally posted by Randar68


Uhhhh, in the rest of the world, people in charge of personnel get to know and interject when necessary to get people's asses in gear.

I don't knwo what world this is not acceptable in, but when ***** goes bad, people from progressively higher positions seem to make their way around more frequently.

I don't see why this was an issue. It's clear Royce was a mistake on all parts...from reports, this is all that was going on... oh btw ...... peace :D:

bc2k
06-04-2002, 02:24 AM
Originally posted by Randar68


*** are you people crying about? If you don't think we should be 5 games up on Minnesota right now with the talent we have HERE, NOW, you are nuts!!!

Is that Kenny's job? No, It's Jerry, Gary, and Nardi's, and they ain't getting it done.

End of freaking story. Cry for a trade, get one, and then cry about that one. You are all just looking for a freaking excuse to cry!

Right on, Randar. If Ghandi isn't going to ride his players for not giving an effort, KW is not out of place. Chain of command works when each link does his job.

Why does everyone ride KW? Do you expect him to win every trade? Would you rather him sit on his hands, being too scared to take an educated chance? It sounds like you're all waiting for him to somehow trick another GM into giving us premier players for our AA scrubs. The Sox aren't going to trick Steinbrenner into giving us Soriano and Clemens for Josh Paul. But I get the feeling that is what some of you expect from KW and wouldn't be suprised to read postings about how KW is ruining our depth at the Catcher position.

CLR01
06-04-2002, 03:02 AM
Originally posted by LongDistanceFan
that is kool...... but sports is not the real world....... you are dealing with million dollar babies and personalities......

but you should know that managers want to manage and deal with the way they are doing it.......... i have no problem what so ever for a gm to come down hard on the players but in the locker room......... not on the field...... but if he lost his confidence in his personal........ then replace them......


Did i miss something?? I thought this all took place in the locker room. Either way it doesnt matter. I disagree about it not being the real world, sports are a business, baseball is a franchise. Going by the same guidelines set forth in this thread should JM have to have Nardi talk to a pitcher that is slacking off, Wally talk to someone who screws up on the basepaths, Ward talk to a batter that is hitting like royce or not taking their cuts in BP...etc...?

MikeKreevich
06-04-2002, 07:32 AM
Originally posted by Randar68


*** are you people crying about? If you don't think we should be 5 games up on Minnesota right now with the talent we have HERE, NOW, you are nuts!!!

Is that Kenny's job? No, It's Jerry, Gary, and Nardi's, and they ain't getting it done.

End of freaking story. Cry for a trade, get one, and then cry about that one. You are all just looking for a freaking excuse to cry!
How is it that our Affirmative Action GM is found blameless?
Mister, no experience, found us our no hit shortstop and traded away some pretty good pitching talent with little return.
Sox fans don't cry, however they do complain when know this team should be kicking ass and see a club playing poorly.

LongDistanceFan
06-04-2002, 07:43 AM
Originally posted by bc2k


Right on, Randar. If Ghandi isn't going to ride his players for not giving an effort, KW is not out of place. Chain of command works when each link does his job.

Why does everyone ride KW? Do you expect him to win every trade? Would you rather him sit on his hands, being too scared to take an educated chance? It sounds like you're all waiting for him to somehow trick another GM into giving us premier players for our AA scrubs.

fine......... i am with the chain of command............ again, if he feels that his managers and coaches are not doing what it suppose to do........... then replace them......... otherwise let the manager do his job.......... most of all do not do the yelling on the field at the bp cage..........

win every trade............... come on now....... i would appreciated a couple of trades to win........... let see.......... 1 trade that worked in the sox favor, per my observation, is the willie harris trade. otherwise than that, all the other trades are a wash with boomer trade a push.

The Sox aren't going to trick Steinbrenner into giving us Soriano and Clemens for Josh Paul. But I get the feeling that is what some of you expect from KW and wouldn't be suprised to read postings about how KW is ruining our depth at the Catcher position. first the sox need talent in the catching dept to say that he is ruining our depth........ next he needed to get in a trade discussion with some gm who will think of him being shrewed....... that is not going to happen........ next and more importantly, kw have to stop overpaying in order to have other gm trade with him oh i forgot he needs to get the right info of the players he is trading for.

LongDistanceFan
06-04-2002, 07:48 AM
Originally posted by CLR01



Did i miss something?? I thought this all took place in the locker room. Either way it doesnt matter. I disagree about it not being the real world, sports are a business, baseball is a franchise. Going by the same guidelines set forth in this thread should JM have to have Nardi talk to a pitcher that is slacking off, Wally talk to someone who screws up on the basepaths, Ward talk to a batter that is hitting like royce or not taking their cuts in BP...etc...? c'mon now clr............ if sports was a real business with the same guidelines....... when latrell sprewell (sp) choke his coach........ more would've happen........... people would've been fired etc.......

the bottom line is its the coaches job to coach and preach when someone is not doing the job, if the manager is not doing the job replace them............ it is simple............. but don't air out the dirty laundry in public...........

LongDistanceFan
06-04-2002, 07:49 AM
Originally posted by Guzman's Goat

How is it that our Affirmative Action GM is found blameless?
wow............ i am not going here.....

steff
06-04-2002, 09:49 AM
Did anyone expect KW to go around kissing everyone's ass after losing 7 in a row? [/B]



Nope. But what I did expect was KW bitching at JM, and JM bitching at the players. That's another one of the problems with the originization.. too many chief's.

steff
06-04-2002, 09:56 AM
Originally posted by Randar68

Uhhhh, in the rest of the world, people in charge of personnel get to know and interject when necessary to get people's asses in gear.
I don't knwo what world this is not acceptable in, but when ***** goes bad, people from progressively higher positions seem to make their way around more frequently.



Not to second guess you Randar.. but if I (as a manager at my company) see a fellow employee (under me - and I don't mean that literally :-) do something wrong at work that I "could" very well repremand, I would rather go to their boss and allow them to deal with it. IMO, if I was to "take care of it" it only undermines the other managers ability to "manage".

Randar68
06-04-2002, 11:09 AM
Originally posted by steff3603



Not to second guess you Randar.. but if I (as a manager at my company) see a fellow employee (under me - and I don't mean that literally :-) do something wrong at work that I "could" very well repremand, I would rather go to their boss and allow them to deal with it. IMO, if I was to "take care of it" it only undermines the other managers ability to "manage".


Everyone has their own style, however, when my group/company is under the gun, everyone all the way up to my CEO is in our area, walking around, talking to people, trying to figure out what is going on.

Nobody here knows what was said or to whom it was related (other than Royce), so if people expect KW to sit in his office and have no interaction with the players, HIS EMPLOYEES, then they are naive.

Paulwny
06-04-2002, 11:38 AM
Originally posted by Randar68

Everyone has their own style, however, when my group/company is under the gun, everyone all the way up to my CEO is in our area, walking around, talking to people, trying to figure out what is going on.


I think the size of the company mat have something to do with it. I've never seen a CEO, Chairman of the Board, or Pres. speak direcyly to an employee, other then " How's it going?"
Most "higher ups" feel it's up to the managers to right any problems. Also the people at the top usually have MBA's and have little to no idea how to improve a technical problem.

Randar68
06-04-2002, 11:43 AM
Originally posted by Paulwny


I think the size of the company mat have something to do with it. I've never seen a CEO, Chairman of the Board, or Pres. speak direcyly to an employee, other then " How's it going?"
Most "higher ups" feel it's up to the managers to right any problems. Also the people at the top usually have MBA's and have little to no idea how to improve a technical problem.

Sounds like a description of Motorola to me. Big and inefficient.

Truem though, I work for a small company and everyone is that much closer in the org chart to the CEO. However, It was just an example. You can Replace CEO with your "boss's boss" if you must.

Paulwny
06-04-2002, 11:58 AM
Originally posted by Randar68

Sounds like a description of Motorola to me. Big and inefficient.
You can Replace CEO with your "boss's boss" if you must.

All large corporations are too fat at the top.
Chain of command: project manager to dept manager to div pres to corp vp to corp pres to finally the chairman.
I probably missed a few.

voodoochile
06-04-2002, 12:08 PM
Originally posted by steff3603



Not to second guess you Randar.. but if I (as a manager at my company) see a fellow employee (under me - and I don't mean that literally :-) do something wrong at work that I "could" very well repremand, I would rather go to their boss and allow them to deal with it. IMO, if I was to "take care of it" it only undermines the other managers ability to "manage".

Supposing this person's boss is also under you. After another week you see that same person doing the same thing wrong. Then a week later they are doing it again, then a week later... you get the point.

At what time do you pull both the person and the boss into a room and give them a good reaming?

steff
06-04-2002, 12:20 PM
Originally posted by voodoochile


Supposing this person's boss is also under you. After another week you see that same person doing the same thing wrong. Then a week later they are doing it again, then a week later... you get the point.

At what time do you pull both the person and the boss into a room and give them a good reaming?


If talking to their manager didn't work then I would go to my boss and allow him to deal with it. It's not my "place" to repremand an employee of another department. It underminds the "chain of command". What my boss chooses to do is his business. Maybe why he's the VP of finance, and I'm just a Managing Director..

bjmarte
06-04-2002, 12:27 PM
Originally posted by voodoochile


Supposing this person's boss is also under you. After another week you see that same person doing the same thing wrong. Then a week later they are doing it again, then a week later... you get the point.

At what time do you pull both the person and the boss into a room and give them a good reaming?

After I talk to the boss (directly under me) and give him the opportunity to correct the problem. If he doesn't correct the problem effectively then I step in.

I think the point is that we don't know what happened before this, if KW addressed it with JM first.

voodoochile
06-04-2002, 12:27 PM
Originally posted by steff3603



If talking to their manager didn't work then I would go to my boss and allow him to deal with it. It's not my "place" to repremand an employee of another department. It underminds the "chain of command". What my boss chooses to do is his business. Maybe why he's the VP of finance, and I'm just a Managing Director..

Yeah, but KW and JM and all the players are in the same department. KW is responsible for the ultimate outcome of the season. JM is the person who is supposed to take the talent that KW assembled and use it to win baseball games. When that isn't happening, it is KW's responsibility to make sure that everyone is on the same page.

voodoochile
06-04-2002, 12:29 PM
Originally posted by bjmarte


After I talk to the boss (directly under me) and give him the opportunity to correct the problem. If he doesn't correct the problem effectively then I step in.

I think the point is that we don't know what happened before this, if KW addressed it with JM first.

If KW even HAD to say anything to JM, then JM is the wrong man for the job, period. Multi-million dollar organizations do not put up with project managers who cannot get results.

Randar68
06-04-2002, 12:34 PM
Originally posted by steff3603



If talking to their manager didn't work then I would go to my boss and allow him to deal with it. It's not my "place" to repremand an employee of another department. It underminds the "chain of command". What my boss chooses to do is his business. Maybe why he's the VP of finance, and I'm just a Managing Director..

If someone you are in charge of is not getting through effectively to the people under him/her, then what are you doing going to your boss? You ARE the chain of command...

steff
06-04-2002, 12:35 PM
Originally posted by voodoochile


Yeah, but KW and JM and all the players are in the same department. KW is responsible for the ultimate outcome of the season. JM is the person who is supposed to take the talent that KW assembled and use it to win baseball games. When that isn't happening, it is KW's responsibility to make sure that everyone is on the same page.

I suppose this could be argued to death... regarding who's in what department (somehow I fail to come to grips with the fact that Steinbrenner would bother himself with walking down to yell at the team and would leave that up to Torre). And we don't know if KW did say something to JM, or if he acted on his own. Just find it hard to believe that JM wouldn't say something since it's been reported in that past that he has. Additionally, I think had KW talked to JM about it, there would be a very different spin on this article. Anyway..
Hopefully the result will be a positive one.

Paulwny
06-04-2002, 12:35 PM
Originally posted by voodoochile


Yeah, but KW and JM and all the players are in the same department. KW is responsible for the ultimate outcome of the season. JM is the person who is supposed to take the talent that KW assembled and use it to win baseball games. When that isn't happening, it is KW's responsibility to make sure that everyone is on the same page.

Supposedly Torre, before he took the job, told King George, et al, that any interference from the front office and he would quit.
They assembled the players, he controlled them on the field.

steff
06-04-2002, 12:36 PM
Originally posted by Randar68


If someone you are in charge of is not getting through effectively to the people under him/her, then what are you doing going to your boss? You ARE the chain of command...


Randar.. I never said anything about a person I am in charge of.. please re-read my comments.

Thanks,
Steff

bjmarte
06-04-2002, 12:39 PM
Originally posted by voodoochile


If KW even HAD to say anything to JM, then JM is the wrong man for the job, period. Multi-million dollar organizations do not put up with project managers who cannot get results.

Well the same can be said of dept managers who can't get results from their project managers. A good manager manages the people directly below them, not everyone down the heirarchy.

steff
06-04-2002, 12:39 PM
Originally posted by Randar68


If someone you are in charge of is not getting through effectively to the people under him/her, then what are you doing going to your boss? You ARE the chain of command...


I think I see where you got that (my "an employee under me" comment).. what I meant (and I apologize) was someone that I do not directly have "control" of While KW is the untiomate responsible one.. JM must have some sort of control and be the first in the chain of command where players are concerned... JMO.

Randar68
06-04-2002, 12:43 PM
Originally posted by steff3603



I think I see where you got that (my "an employee under me" comment).. what I meant (and I apologize) was someone that I do not directly have "control" of While KW is the untiomate responsible one.. JM must have some sort of control and be the first in the chain of command where players are concerned... JMO.

I agree completely, and sorry to sound like I was referring to your direct situation, just what I interpreted from the comments. However, I would guess that we can agree that a 7 game losing streak and some sort of clubhouse discord is due cause for KW to get in there and interject, yes? If not at this point, where JM is clearly not getting through effectively, then when?

CLR01
06-04-2002, 01:50 PM
Did the article mention or does any one know where JM was when this all went down? Was he off watching the pitchers in the bullpen or something and didn't see what was going on?

Also not sure if this was the same incident but on KW interview on ESPN radio he said it was Kenny Lofton that he talked to.

foulkesfan11
06-04-2002, 04:16 PM
Originally posted by alohafri


:KW Do I get to tend the White Sox, Jerry?

We started calling Kenny Williams "Lenny" on another message board and it has caught on like wildfire. The decisions made by Williams makes me think that he is actually Lenny from "Of Mice and Men."

Thanks

TheBigHurt
06-04-2002, 04:32 PM
oh so thats where "lennie" came from

LongDistanceFan
06-04-2002, 05:06 PM
after reading everything here.......... i am really happy and impress that no name calling no belittlement all good healthy counterpoint............ thanks guy.

RedPinStripes
06-04-2002, 05:59 PM
Originally posted by LongDistanceFan
wow............ i am not going here.....

LOL! This could get ugly. :gulp:

AsInWreck
06-04-2002, 07:00 PM
Who says the sox should be any good? The sox have
a few good hitters and one or two good pitchers. Sounds like a .500 club to me

Procol Harum
06-04-2002, 09:31 PM
Originally posted by TheBigHurt
oh so thats where "lennie" came from

Hmmmm, "Of Mice and Men?" Does anyone have any definitive info on that being its origin..I kinda of thought it might stem from the general cultural influence of those commercials for Denny's several years back where the two old spinsters called it "Lenny's"?

PaleHoseGeorge
06-04-2002, 09:37 PM
Originally posted by Procol Harum
Hmmmm, "Of Mice and Men?" Does anyone have any definitive info on that being its origin..I kinda of thought it might stem from the general cultural influence of those commercials for Denny's several years back where the two old spinsters called it "Lenny's"?

Hal (TornLabrum) has been the one to use it the most around here. I know he is active on the email list and AOL board where the term is used, too. I'm pretty sure it is derived from "Of Mice and Men".