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View Full Version : *Official* "Same Old Story" 6/19/2009 Postgame Thread


Viva Medias B's
06-19-2009, 10:02 PM
The last 29 hours or so of our ballclub's season have not been very happy ones; discuss the last three of them here.

DirtySox
06-19-2009, 10:03 PM
Meh.

Par for the course.

ndgt10
06-19-2009, 10:04 PM
Good comeback in the 9th. Just came up a bit short. I think we will use the last inning momentum to whoop them tomm.

thomas35forever
06-19-2009, 10:04 PM
What else to say except this is what happens when you get good pitching and lethargic hitting?

guillensdisciple
06-19-2009, 10:04 PM
Sigh, the White Sox go from 3 games back to 5 in a split second bullpen malfunction. Oh well, gotta keep on fighting.

Viva Medias B's
06-19-2009, 10:05 PM
Good comeback in the 9th. Just came up a bit short. I think we will use the last inning momentum to whoop them tomm.

From your keyboard to God's monitor.

kittle42
06-19-2009, 10:05 PM
Nice to see things have returned to normal.

soxfan21
06-19-2009, 10:05 PM
I just hope we reach .500 again this season, but the way that we have been up and down this season really makes me feel like this won't happen. I just really hope we take the next 2 in this series and go from there.

Gammons Peter
06-19-2009, 10:05 PM
I'm ready for the FIRE SALE

RadioheadRocks
06-19-2009, 10:07 PM
Well that sucked ass.

DannyCaterFan
06-19-2009, 10:07 PM
Good comeback in the 9th. Just came up a bit short. I think we will use the last inning momentum to whoop them tomm.

Comeback ?? A solo homerun in the ninth and that's a comeback? No momentum here. Now what happened on the north side today, that was a comeback. I am just sick of this team.

DirtySox
06-19-2009, 10:07 PM
I'm ready for the FIRE SALE

I'm ready to move some pieces. I'm also ready for a high draft pick next year. :gulp:

JB98
06-19-2009, 10:07 PM
This is just not a very good team. Still 95 games left. It's a long season.

Blueprint1
06-19-2009, 10:08 PM
Fire Walker now. This is the worst hitting team in baseball.

1989
06-19-2009, 10:08 PM
Just a mediocre ballclub

thomas35forever
06-19-2009, 10:09 PM
This is just not a very good team. Still 95 games left. It's a long season.
You don't say. When does training camp start for the Bears?

Viva Medias B's
06-19-2009, 10:10 PM
Fire Walker now. This is the worst hitting team in baseball.

While not endorsing that idea because I don't think it's Walk's fault that millionaire ballplayers can't execute, I posed that question in the game thread suggesting it could be a way to wake these people up.

JB98
06-19-2009, 10:10 PM
Fire Walker now. This is the worst hitting team in baseball.

There were only three good hitters in the lineup tonight. A new coach won't save them.

The GM needs to fix this.

soxfan21
06-19-2009, 10:12 PM
There were only three good hitters in the lineup tonight. A new coach won't save them.

The GM needs to fix this.


Agree, Kenny got us into this mess, he can get us out of it.

California Sox
06-19-2009, 10:13 PM
This is not defending Walker, but the final five guys in the lineup were Castro, Getz, Anderson, Beckham, and the pitcher. It's amazing they scored three runs.

thomas35forever
06-19-2009, 10:13 PM
With this loss, our record is right back where it was when this road trip started.

Viva Medias B's
06-19-2009, 10:14 PM
Agree, Kenny got us into this mess, he can get us out of it.

He better, or I'll call for his firing before I call for Walk's.

JB98
06-19-2009, 10:15 PM
With this loss, our record is right back where it was when this road trip started.

A .500 trip would actually be good for this group, especially with no DH and Thome out. Let's hope they take one of the next two.

skobabe8
06-19-2009, 10:17 PM
It isn't one hitting coach being fired that will fix this, its the philosophy of the entire organization.

The problem runs way deeper than Greg Walker.

kevingrt
06-19-2009, 10:19 PM
It isn't one hitting coach being fired that will fix this, its the philosophy of the entire organization.

The problem runs way deeper than Greg Walker.

Agreement. But the ballpark we play in leads the organization to the philosophy. Now can the organization change the philosophy despite keeping the same ballpark, with the same type of dynamics? Great question. We have won a World Championship with this same philosophy. Was it a fluke? Well no one knows right now and probably will not for a while.

But I lean towards your opinion skobabe. Our hitting is a flawed philosophy. But it is brought upon by the park we play in.

hi im skot
06-19-2009, 10:20 PM
Just a mediocre ballclub

It isn't one hitting coach being fired that will fix this, its the philosophy of the entire organization.

The problem runs way deeper than Greg Walker.

Troof!

PhillipsBubba
06-19-2009, 10:21 PM
I'm ready for the FIRE SALE

Amen, Brother!!!!:(:

JB98
06-19-2009, 10:23 PM
Agreement. But the ballpark we play in leads the organization to the philosophy. Now can the organization change the philosophy despite keeping the same ballpark, with the same type of dynamics? Great question. We have won a World Championship with this same philosophy. Was it a fluke? Well no one knows right now and probably will not for a while.

But I lean towards your opinion skobabe. Our hitting is a flawed philosophy. But it is brought upon by the park we play in.

The funny thing is, we've played a lot of small ball on this trip. Hell, they swiped three bags tonight. People keep calling for more small ball, but I think the main problem is that Konerko is the only guy who can get a base hit with RISP this year.

skobabe8
06-19-2009, 10:26 PM
Agreement. But the ballpark we play in leads the organization to the philosophy. Now can the organization change the philosophy despite keeping the same ballpark, with the same type of dynamics? Great question. We have won a World Championship with this same philosophy. Was it a fluke? Well no one knows right now and probably will not for a while.

But I lean towards your opinion skobabe. Our hitting is a flawed philosophy. But it is brought upon by the park we play in.

I understand building a team around your ballpark, but it just simply hasnt worked with this squad. How many times have we lead the AL in hr's with nothing to show for it?

I wish they would get away from that in order to have a more balance attack that can score runs w/o waiting around for a bomb.

Dick Allen
06-19-2009, 10:27 PM
This is not a very good team that they lost to. Cincy has some good pitching, but still a team the Sox should beat. This garbage is getting old real fast.

Viva Medias B's
06-19-2009, 10:28 PM
You don't say. When does training camp start for the Bears?

I don't hate the Bears, and I enjoy going to Bears training camp each August. Nevertheless, I am tired of people viewing the Bears' reporting to Bourbonnais as some sort of "rescue" from a baseball season gone arwy. If you are a devoted fan, your baseball season lasts from when pitchers and catchers report until the telecast of the final game of the World Series ends.

JB98
06-19-2009, 10:28 PM
I understand building a team around your ballpark, but it just simply hasnt worked with this squad. How many times have we lead the AL in hr's with nothing to show for it?

I wish they would get away from that in order to have a more balance attack that can score runs w/o waiting around for a bomb.

They aren't waiting for the bomb, though. Ozzie has been calling steals and bunts and hit-and-runs like crazy on this trip. The bottom line is somebody needs to get a damn base hit with RISP. This team can't do that.

skobabe8
06-19-2009, 10:29 PM
They aren't waiting for the bomb, though. Ozzie has been calling steals and bunts and hit-and-runs like crazy on this trip. The bottom line is somebody needs to get a damn base hit with RISP. This team can't do that.

Yeah, I agree....I like the way they play in NL ballparks.

It's Dankerific
06-19-2009, 10:30 PM
This is not a very good team that they lost to. Cincy has some good pitching, but still a team the Sox should beat. This garbage is getting old real fast.

I actually think thats what any team that loses to us ends up saying.

Brian26
06-19-2009, 10:33 PM
I don't hate the Bears, and I enjoy going to Bears training camp each August. Nevertheless, I am tired of people viewing the Bears' reporting to Bourbonnais as some sort of "rescue" from a baseball season gone arwy. If you are a devoted fan, your baseball season lasts from when pitchers and catchers report until the telecast of the final game of the World Series ends.

Gospel, Viva.

The Dan McNeil "I can't wait until they lace up the pads" bull**** gets old really fast.

Brian26
06-19-2009, 10:38 PM
I understand building a team around your ballpark, but it just simply hasnt worked with this squad. How many times have we lead the AL in hr's with nothing to show for it?

I wish they would get away from that in order to have a more balance attack that can score runs w/o waiting around for a bomb.

I have a different perspective on this, almost 180-degrees from what you're saying. This team actually has some nice balance to it right now and may be just as balanced up and down the lineup as the '05 team. The problem is twofold: They aren't getting clutch hits and they're not hitting enough homeruns.

That '05 team won with homeruns, I don't care what anybody says. This '09 team has shown very little power.

JB98
06-19-2009, 10:40 PM
I have a different perspective on this, almost 180-degrees from what you're saying. This team actually has some nice balance to it right now and may be just as balanced up and down the lineup as the '05 team. The problem is twofold: They aren't getting clutch hits and they're not hitting enough homeruns.

That '05 team won with homeruns, I don't care what anybody says. This '09 team has shown very little power.

Yes, power numbers are down across the board. Dye is the only man who is where you'd expect him to be in terms of home run totals. Well, I guess Pierzynski is on the pace you would expect, but he's not a true power hitter anyway.

Viva Medias B's
06-19-2009, 10:41 PM
Gospel, Viva.

The Dan McNeil "I can't wait until they lace up the pads" bull**** gets old really fast.

Da Ma Neil got ripped by Brian26 ticket.

skobabe8
06-19-2009, 10:47 PM
I have a different perspective on this, almost 180-degrees from what you're saying. This team actually has some nice balance to it right now and may be just as balanced up and down the lineup as the '05 team. The problem is twofold: They aren't getting clutch hits and they're not hitting enough homeruns.

That '05 team won with homeruns, I don't care what anybody says. This '09 team has shown very little power.

Really good points.

The only issue I have with the arguement about the '05 team winning with HRs is why didn't the '02, '03, '04, '06, and '08 teams win with HRs? I think the '05 team is the only team that could find a different way to win in a low scoring, closely contested game while the other teams couldn't.

And I do think this organization is getting more balanced with the young guys coming in (except Fields). So that is a good thing.

Lip Man 1
06-19-2009, 10:51 PM
The 05 team was also in the top five in the league in stolen bases, sacrifice bunts, infield hits and sacrifice flys.

Is this team doing that?

In a word, no.

BALANCE is the key. This team doesn't have it.

Lip

Brian26
06-19-2009, 10:52 PM
Really good points.

The only issue I have with the arguement about the '05 team winning with HRs is why didn't the '02, '03, '04, '06, and '08 teams win with HRs?

'02-'04 and '06: our starting pitching generally was atrocious in the 4th and 5th slots.

skobabe8
06-19-2009, 10:53 PM
The 05 team was also in the top five in the league in stolen bases, sacrifice bunts, infield hits and sacrifice flys.

Is this team doing that?

In a word, no.

BALANCE is the key. This team doesn't have it.

Lip


Well said.

JB98
06-19-2009, 10:55 PM
The 05 team was also in the top five in the league in stolen bases, sacrifice bunts, infield hits and sacrifice flys.

Is this team doing that?

In a word, no.

BALANCE is the key. This team doesn't have it.

Lip

Lip, we had three stolen bases and two home runs tonight. That's pretty balanced, no?

The problem isn't a lack of balance. It's too many weak hitters. Pods, Dye and Konerko are good hitters. The rest of them are No. 9-hole type of guys.

kitekrazy
06-19-2009, 11:21 PM
Really good points.

The only issue I have with the arguement about the '05 team winning with HRs is why didn't the '02, '03, '04, '06, and '08 teams win with HRs? I think the '05 team is the only team that could find a different way to win in a low scoring, closely contested game while the other teams couldn't.

And I do think this organization is getting more balanced with the young guys coming in (except Fields). So that is a good thing.

05 was full of clutch hitting. 09 is unclutch.

EdHerman12
06-19-2009, 11:27 PM
:ozzie I was really proud wit the way we baddled......

skobabe8
06-19-2009, 11:28 PM
05 was full of clutch hitting. 09 is unclutch.

So how do you build a team of clutch hitters?

Dibbs
06-19-2009, 11:29 PM
While not endorsing that idea because I don't think it's Walk's fault that millionaire ballplayers can't execute, I posed that question in the game thread suggesting it could be a way to wake these people up.

I am so tired of this argument. Why do major league teams even have hitting coaches if it is never their fault the team is not hitting. Walker should have been fired a couple years ago.

JB98
06-19-2009, 11:32 PM
I am so tired of this argument. Why do major league teams even have hitting coaches if it is never their fault the team is not hitting. Walker should have been fired a couple years ago.

Maybe so, but do you actually think this would become a good team if they changed the hitting coach?

I don't. The best argument I can make for getting rid of Walker is keeping him away from Beckham and the other young hitters.

Firing the hitting coach will not rescue this 2009 White Sox team.

thomas35forever
06-19-2009, 11:44 PM
Maybe so, but do you actually think this would become a good team if they changed the hitting coach?

I don't. The best argument I can make for getting rid of Walker is keeping him away from Beckham and the other young hitters.

Firing the hitting coach will not rescue this 2009 White Sox team.
If firing Walker will not rescue this team, what will? We're not sure if buying will work. Selling means waving a white flag. Someone has to be held accountable for this eventually. Staying as is will not help. Something needs to change. Help me out here.

Blueprint1
06-19-2009, 11:44 PM
Maybe so, but do you actually think this would become a good team if they changed the hitting coach?

I don't. The best argument I can make for getting rid of Walker is keeping him away from Beckham and the other young hitters.

Firing the hitting coach will not rescue this 2009 White Sox team.

The only reason that guy has a job is he is friends with the owner. It's clear that Jerry will not fire people that he likes. He also gets mad at the media wants to prove them wrong. Well Jerry your completely wrong on this one. Walker must go.

kitekrazy
06-19-2009, 11:45 PM
So how do you build a team of clutch hitters?

OH that's easy. Just have all of your youngsters in the minors swing for the fences. With the crackdown on steroids just as them to swing harder. Ignore things like situational hitting.

Lip Man 1
06-19-2009, 11:48 PM
JB:

It's not being balanced when they only way you can score runs is via the home run. That was my point and I apologize for not making that clearer.

I do agree though with you, that firing Walker doesn't change a thing with this team. To many of the same type hitters in the lineup, swing hard and hope to make contact, to many guys on the down side of their careers, to many inexperienced kids who don't know what they are doing, no real stolen base threats (in the 25-30 range), no contact hitters that can advance runners, do the fundamental things.

Any hitting coach couldn't solve all of the issues that abound with this club and have gotten worse since July 2006.

Thomas:

Kenny has always publicly said to the mainstream media that if things don't work to "blame him." (direct quote) I think that's a fair statement.

Lip

JB98
06-19-2009, 11:51 PM
If firing Walker will not rescue this team, what will? We're not sure if buying will work. Selling means waving a white flag. Someone has to be held accountable for this eventually. Staying as is will not help. Something needs to change. Help me out here.

They need roster changes, not coaching or managerial changes. If they want to go for it this year, they need another outfielder and either a second baseman or a third baseman. Perhaps they need another arm in the bullpen, too. This team isn't nearly good enough, and I don't think they can count on TCQ riding to the rescue.

If they decide to tear it down, they do have a few players that other teams would covet, especially in the bullpen.

If they stay as is, they will huff and puff and wheeze to roughly 75 wins.

JB98
06-19-2009, 11:55 PM
JB:

It's not being balanced when they only way you can score runs is via the home run. That was my point and I apologize for not making that clearer.

I do agree though with you, that firing Walker doesn't change a thing with this team. To many of the same type hitters in the lineup, swing hard and hope to make contact, to many guys on the down side of their careers, to many inexperienced kids who don't know what they are doing, no real stolen base threats (in the 25-30 range), no contact hitters that can advance runners, do the fundamental things.

Any hitting coach couldn't solve all of the issues that abound with this club and have gotten worse since July 2006.

Thomas:

Kenny has always publicly said to the mainstream media that if things don't work to "blame him." (direct quote) I think that's a fair statement.

Lip

In Milwaukee, we saw them have a six-run inning without the benefit of a home run. Lo and behold, some guys got hits with RISP. The Sunday game in Milwaukee also featured some singles and doubles to knock in runs. On Wednesday, we saw a beautifully executed squeeze by Pods. The win over the Cubs was very much a small-ball effort.

The biggest problem is the lack of hitting with RISP. A secondary problem is the lack of home runs. Yes, I'm serious. They have hardly any power, which makes it extremely tough to win in the American League.

Whitesoxfan23
06-20-2009, 12:16 AM
FireSale now please. I'm tired of this team getting my hopes up, just to break my heart again. Fire Walker, and let's have a good old fashioned firesale.

Lip Man 1
06-20-2009, 12:16 AM
JB:

The problem is they score without a home run or have a big inning once in a blue moon.

They can't consistently execute fundamentals, that's the issue... or balance hitting if you will. RISP is one symptom of this home run or nothing philosophy. These guys can't consistently get guys over, shorten up their swing, make contact or bring runners in. That's because it's all swing hard and hope to hit that eight run blast.

In 2005 the Sox could beat you with a bunt, a bloop or a three run blast. This team can't and they couldn't in 2007 and 2008 either.

Every off season for the past three years the Sox have talked about balance, speed, fundamentals in the lineup, Yet it's still not there. I've said there is a disconnect between the type of team Ozzie wants, based on his public comments and the type of team Kenny is giving him year after year.

IF the Sox had two guys in the lineup who could steal 25 to 30 bases each and if the Sox had two guys in the lineup who could hit .280, bunt, move runners along, set the table they would have that balance and would have enough power at the 3 through 7 spots in the lineup to contend. But they don't.

You do make a valid point about "power' though in the here and now. Thome, Dye, Konerko are all one dimensional hitters, getting older and battling nagging injuries. Fields is a bust, A.J. will never be confused as a 20 home run guy and Carlos is out.

Just another thing on Kenny's off season shopping list to go along with a center fielder, a lead off hitter, either a 2nd or 3rd baseman, a starting pitcher, another bullpen arm, speed and contact hitters.

YIKES that's a long list! :D:

Lip

Whitesoxfan23
06-20-2009, 12:20 AM
Lol. Comparing this team to the 05 team, is insulting to the 05 team.

twinsuck
06-20-2009, 12:22 AM
:whiner: Losing sucks.

twinsuck
06-20-2009, 12:25 AM
Lol. Comparing this team to the 05 team, is insulting to the 05 team.
That's so true. That's why I shudder whenever Hawk says that stupid "shades of '05" thing. Come on. Apparently the '05 team sucked at hitting and couldn't go a game without one of the infielders committing an error, right.

Windy City
06-20-2009, 12:29 AM
This 2009 White Sox team is just an inconsistent bunch, guys. You can't blame Walker or Guillen or hark back to 2005 for answers. The White Sox won the World Series because of homers, solid defense and great pitching. The 2009 White Sox have struggled in all those areas so far this season. That is why the team is below. 500.

I mean, honestly these guys are about where they should be with the current talent on the roster. You have a second-year guy in Ramirez at SS and rookies at 2B and 3B in Getz and Beckman. The CF spot has not been settled as of yet plus the middle relief Corps of Dotel and Linebrink have not always been reliable. While veterans like Thome, Paulie and Dye have given the Sox some prouduction, are pretty long in the tooth.

Basically, they are three DHs, but two of them play the field. Pods has been a pleasant surprise, but if he has to be relied on for production throughout the season, I don't think the Sox will be very good in the long run.

That is why it is important for Kenny to determine if the Sox can make a World Series run in 2009. Making the playoffs with this bunch means nothing if you don't believe the team can win the whole thing.

Rohan
06-20-2009, 12:31 AM
Damnit Linebrink...

skobabe8
06-20-2009, 12:32 AM
OH that's easy. Just have all of your youngsters in the minors swing for the fences. With the crackdown on steroids just as them to swing harder. Ignore things like situational hitting.

If I am correctly picking up your sarcasm, are you critical of the organization's philosophy when it comes to hitting?

Because that is what I said pages ago.

Lip Man 1
06-20-2009, 12:37 AM
Windy:

You make a great point about the lack of talent.

Remember they opened the season with guys like MacDougal, Betemit, Miller, Wise, Anderson on the roster.

They brought up guys like Lillibridge, Nix, Broadway, Egbert.

They simply don't have a lot of talent. A lot of old guys heading downhill? Yes. A lot of young guys trying to fit in? Yes. (And some of those like Fields will never cut it) A lot of jouneymen who at best may do something once in awhile? Yes.

But not a lot of real honest-to-God, talent that's at the top of their game.

Again you made a real great point!

Lip

Windy City
06-20-2009, 12:49 AM
Windy:

You make a great point about the lack of talent.

Remember they opened the season with guys like MacDougal, Betemit, Miller, Wise, Anderson on the roster.

They brought up guys like Lillibridge, Nix, Broadway, Egbert.

They simply don't have a lot of talent. A lot of old guys heading downhill? Yes. A lot of young guys trying to fit in? Yes. (And some of those like Fields will never cut it) A lot of jouneymen who at best may do something once in awhile? Yes.

But not a lot of real honest-to-God, talent that's at the top of their game.

Again you made a real great point!

Lip

I don't know why Miller and Betemit were even on the roster. They provided nothing for the team off the bench. Lillibridge just did not belong in the majors at all and refused to make adjustments.

I think next season the core of this team will be Danks, Floyd, Beckman, Getz, Ramirez and Quentin. The rest of the guys, with the exception of Jenks (because closers are hard to find) are expendable. It won't be easy for the Sox to return to the 2005-2006 form, but these next few months will determine the future of the Sox.

JB98
06-20-2009, 12:52 AM
JB:

The problem is they score without a home run or have a big inning once in a blue moon.

They can't consistently execute fundamentals, that's the issue... or balance hitting if you will. RISP is one symptom of this home run or nothing philosophy. These guys can't consistently get guys over, shorten up their swing, make contact or bring runners in. That's because it's all swing hard and hope to hit that eight run blast.

In 2005 the Sox could beat you with a bunt, a bloop or a three run blast. This team can't and they couldn't in 2007 and 2008 either.

Every off season for the past three years the Sox have talked about balance, speed, fundamentals in the lineup, Yet it's still not there. I've said there is a disconnect between the type of team Ozzie wants, based on his public comments and the type of team Kenny is giving him year after year.

IF the Sox had two guys in the lineup who could steal 25 to 30 bases each and if the Sox had two guys in the lineup who could hit .280, bunt, move runners along, set the table they would have that balance and would have enough power at the 3 through 7 spots in the lineup to contend. But they don't.

You do make a valid point about "power' though in the here and now. Thome, Dye, Konerko are all one dimensional hitters, getting older and battling nagging injuries. Fields is a bust, A.J. will never be confused as a 20 home run guy and Carlos is out.

Just another thing on Kenny's off season shopping list to go along with a center fielder, a lead off hitter, either a 2nd or 3rd baseman, a starting pitcher, another bullpen arm, speed and contact hitters.

YIKES that's a long list! :D:

Lip

Lip, to be honest with you, I would love to see some runs scored via the long ball. I can't even say this is a "home run or nothing" team because they don't hit that many home runs.

I guess that makes them a "nothing" team. Their best hitter is on the DL, and all their other good hitters are 32 years of age or older. Most of those guys are dealing with nagging injuries. Both Dye and Konerko are battling through because they know the team needs them, but it's pretty clear they are less than 100 percent at this time.

I really admire the posters who still think the Sox can win the division. I wish I had that type of optimism. But from my perspective, the only reason we're still in the hunt is the weak division. If there were any power teams in the AL Central, the firesale probably would have already begun. As it stands, we're caught in this no-man's land between contending and rebuilding. It's really not a good place to be.

My thesis remains the same: When change comes to this roster, I will welcome it.

skobabe8
06-20-2009, 12:57 AM
I really admire the posters who still think the Sox can win the division. I wish I had that type of optimism. But from my perspective, the only reason we're still in the hunt is the weak division. If there were any power teams in the AL Central, the firesale probably would have already begun. As it stands, we're caught in this no-man's land between contending and rebuilding. It's really not a good place to be.
.

I completely agree. Much like last year, I think we can grab a 'division champion' banner just because the competition in the division is so weak. But I have no faith in advancing in the playoffs against the power AL teams.

kittle42
06-20-2009, 01:30 AM
I completely agree. Much like last year, I think we can grab a 'division champion' banner just because the competition in the division is so weak. But I have no faith in advancing in the playoffs against the power AL teams.

Don't you know the playoffs are just a crapshoot?

Chicken Dinner
06-20-2009, 01:35 AM
This team is sooooo different with and without TCQ in the lineup.

skobabe8
06-20-2009, 02:03 AM
Don't you know the playoffs are just a crapshoot?

LOL.

Forgot.

Nellie_Fox
06-20-2009, 02:11 AM
Don't you know the playoffs are just a crapshoot?

This team is sooooo different with and without TCQ in the lineup.

LOL.

Forgot.
2006.
St. Louis Cardinals.
I need say no more.

kittle42
06-20-2009, 02:46 AM
2006.
St. Louis Cardinals.
I need say no more.

Hey, I realize this isn't the NBA. The "crappy" playoff team can, and does occasionally, win the World Series. But, as I've stated before (and I am way too lazy to do this myself), I bet if you look at the last 20 years or so (or confined to some similar, but still statistically relevant period), the better teams did better in the playoffs. Yeah, there's always the 2006 Cards, and there's always the 2001 Mariners, but I really think the balance would work out the way I'm predicting.

Nellie_Fox
06-20-2009, 02:55 AM
Hey, I realize this isn't the NBA. The "crappy" playoff team can, and does occasionally, win the World Series. But, as I've stated before (and I am way too lazy to do this myself), I bet if you look at the last 20 years or so (or confined to some similar, but still statistically relevant period), the better teams did better in the playoffs. Yeah, there's always the 2006 Cards, and there's always the 2001 Mariners, but I really think the balance would work out the way I'm predicting.I'm not going to go look it up, but too many wild card teams have done well to dismiss.

Mohoney
06-20-2009, 04:23 AM
Basically, they are three DHs, but two of them play the field.

Konerko is very solid at 1B. I disagree with calling him a DH.

SoxFan1979
06-20-2009, 05:14 AM
nice to see things have returned to normal.

:d: :d:

wassagstdu
06-20-2009, 08:25 AM
I think it is time to tear it down, but not before they build another one across 35th street. But "seriously", I think the die was cast (and probably Dye was cast out) when they brought up Beckham. That is what Ozzie meant when he said if Beckham was brought up the Sox are in trouble. The Sox are rebuilding, and doing a credible job, I think. I don't know about Ramirez (well, actually I think I do, but I hope I am wrong), but Getz and Beckham will get better and those guys plus Quentin (if he can figure out how to keep intensity without being self-destructive) will form the core of a pretty good team. On the pitching side, I hope they stick with the kids for the 4th and 5th spots and don't trade any top prospects for an established starter at this point.

Viva Medias B's
06-20-2009, 08:39 AM
That's so true. That's why I shudder whenever Hawk says that stupid "shades of '05" thing. Come on. Apparently the '05 team sucked at hitting and couldn't go a game without one of the infielders committing an error, right.

We're beginning to rely too much on the 2005 team for a multitude of things. This is fastly becoming similar to people who to this day rely upon the 1985 Bears for the same multitude of reasons.

VenturaFan23
06-20-2009, 08:53 AM
So should we put Arroyo on the list of Cy Young candidates? Only 2 freakin' hits??!! :rolleyes:

Over By There
06-20-2009, 08:58 AM
This 2009 White Sox team is just an inconsistent bunch, guys. You can't blame Walker or Guillen or hark back to 2005 for answers. The White Sox won the World Series because of homers, solid defense and great pitching. The 2009 White Sox have struggled in all those areas so far this season. That is why the team is below. 500.

I mean, honestly these guys are about where they should be with the current talent on the roster. You have a second-year guy in Ramirez at SS and rookies at 2B and 3B in Getz and Beckman. The CF spot has not been settled as of yet plus the middle relief Corps of Dotel and Linebrink have not always been reliable. While veterans like Thome, Paulie and Dye have given the Sox some prouduction, are pretty long in the tooth.

Basically, they are three DHs, but two of them play the field. Pods has been a pleasant surprise, but if he has to be relied on for production throughout the season, I don't think the Sox will be very good in the long run.

That is why it is important for Kenny to determine if the Sox can make a World Series run in 2009. Making the playoffs with this bunch means nothing if you don't believe the team can win the whole thing.

Good post, :welcome:.

It's encouraging to see some balanced reasoning from a new face as opposed to the usual simple-minded bluster about firing Ozzie or whoever.

kittle42
06-20-2009, 09:18 AM
We're beginning to rely too much on the 2005 team for a multitude of things. This is fastly becoming similar to people who to this day rely upon the 1985 Bears for the same multitude of reasons.

Gross. Overreliance on the 1985 Bears by the Chicago fanbase is what got me off of being a Bears fan, in part. I think I complained about this even in 2006. 2005 this, 2005 that. Hey, I, and most of us, love that team more than naything in our Sox fandom, but it is typical Chicago to hang onto the one time we were successful with a death grip. It's annoying.

TommyJohn
06-20-2009, 10:07 AM
Gross. Overreliance on the 1985 Bears by the Chicago fanbase is what got me off of being a Bears fan, in part. I think I complained about this even in 2006. 2005 this, 2005 that. Hey, I, and most of us, love that team more than naything in our Sox fandom, but it is typical Chicago to hang onto the one time we were successful with a death grip. It's annoying.

I agree, but unfortunately I believe fans do it because that kind of success in this town is so rare and fleeting.

palehozenychicty
06-20-2009, 10:56 AM
I agree, but unfortunately I believe fans do it because that kind of success in this town is so rare and fleeting.




I know.

Shoeless
06-20-2009, 11:25 AM
Gross. Overreliance on the 1985 Bears by the Chicago fanbase is what got me off of being a Bears fan, in part. I think I complained about this even in 2006. 2005 this, 2005 that. Hey, I, and most of us, love that team more than naything in our Sox fandom, but it is typical Chicago to hang onto the one time we were successful with a death grip. It's annoying.

I agree with you 100%. I'd only like to add that I am, in fact, NOT a fan of the 2005 White Sox, I am a fan of the CHICAGO WHITE SOX. It's almost like my children, I love every team that dons the black pinstripes equally.

Edit: It's not that some of them don't break my heart (2004, 2006, 2007), but they're still the Sox for the time I'm watching them.

Lip Man 1
06-20-2009, 12:12 PM
Nellie:

I think a division needs to be made between teams like the 06 Cardinals and the 73 Mets, teams that get to the playoffs with 83 / 84 wins then do great and your usual Wild Card Team.

History shows the majority of wild card teams who do well in the post season are damn good clubs, I'm talking about winning 93-95-97 games.

That's a ton of games. Usually that's enough to win a division outright.

Lip

RANDY WILES
06-20-2009, 12:21 PM
Should have been done last year. '08 championship was hollow at best. Though little is made of it, it is obvious that Kenny doesn't get type of player Ozzie wants.....this might become interesting.

Also, consider that hitting coach is not really "coach" in the traditional sense. His job is really to analyze tapes and make suggestions to the hitters----has no control over what they do. When a player needs to shorten up his swing to be sure he moves a runner along and doesn't do it. there are three reasons he doesn't and none involve the hitting coach. 1) he knows his manager doesn't reallY EMPHASIZE THAT PART OF THE GAME, 2) he knows there is no one competing for his job, and 3) and most likely-HE'S JUST NOT GOOD ENOUGH.

Finally,though Cooper is probably more valuable than Ozzie because of his ability to find and develop starters---he really needs help with relievers. Since 2005 how many stiffs have we seen----I mean when we saw Cotts/riske every night it was hard to believe Sox were serious. Now we see McDougald with 2 saves already for the lowly Nats. Our relief corps must lead the league with 10 losses. Let's don't forget that if last night Dotel (the only Sox player ever that I can't stomach) could have maybe got through 1 inning without giving up a run--we would have stayed close. MAYBE COOP NEEDS AN ASSISTANT IN CHARGE OF RELIF PITCHERS?????

35th and Shields
06-20-2009, 01:34 PM
Maybe so, but do you actually think this would become a good team if they changed the hitting coach?

I don't. The best argument I can make for getting rid of Walker is keeping him away from Beckham and the other young hitters.

Firing the hitting coach will not rescue this 2009 White Sox team.

Well we know Walker isn't doing anything so why not take a chance with someone else? Walker has taught these guys everything he knows. Konerko, Dye, AJ aren't going to learn anything from him anymore, what's wrong with bringing in another guy who's going to go about things a little bit differently?

With this offense and team for that matter I will welcome any kind of change.

TheOldRoman
06-20-2009, 01:41 PM
I am so tired of this argument. Why do major league teams even have hitting coaches if it is never their fault the team is not hitting. Walker should have been fired a couple years ago.Most people on here disagree. Walker has no influence on the veterans because they are vets and have their swing down already. Now that there are kids up, some of who are very talented, he can't work miracles because he is working with crap. Oh, and we are a softball team loaded with slow power hitters, like Getz, Beckham, Alexei, and Podsednik. It is clearly not Walker's fault.

As for this game, I am glad I didn't watch any of it. The offense had been respectable for too long, and it was about time they came out with a classic Walkerian performance. The whole game sucked. Bronson Aroyo is a horrible pitcher. Jose was not good, Dotel was not good. Meh. This game angers me much more than losing to those clowns on Thursday.

Konerko05
06-20-2009, 01:48 PM
Should have been done last year. '08 championship was hollow at best. Though little is made of it, it is obvious that Kenny doesn't get type of player Ozzie wants.....this might become interesting.

Also, consider that hitting coach is not really "coach" in the traditional sense. His job is really to analyze tapes and make suggestions to the hitters----has no control over what they do. When a player needs to shorten up his swing to be sure he moves a runner along and doesn't do it. there are three reasons he doesn't and none involve the hitting coach. 1) he knows his manager doesn't reallY EMPHASIZE THAT PART OF THE GAME, 2) he knows there is no one competing for his job, and 3) and most likely-HE'S JUST NOT GOOD ENOUGH.

Finally,though Cooper is probably more valuable than Ozzie because of his ability to find and develop starters---he really needs help with relievers. Since 2005 how many stiffs have we seen----I mean when we saw Cotts/riske every night it was hard to believe Sox were serious. Now we see McDougald with 2 saves already for the lowly Nats. Our relief corps must lead the league with 10 losses. Let's don't forget that if last night Dotel (the only Sox player ever that I can't stomach) could have maybe got through 1 inning without giving up a run--we would have stayed close. MAYBE COOP NEEDS AN ASSISTANT IN CHARGE OF RELIF PITCHERS?????

So Walker is not held accountable for the hitter's execution, but Cooper is held accountable for the pitching's execution?

It's Cooper's fault when Linebrink or Dotel completely miss their spots with straight fastballs? Or better yet, maybe they are "JUST NOT GOOD ENOUGH."

MacDougal converting only 2 saves with the Nationals is hardly an argument. MacDougal was able to string together a couple good outings under Cooper as well.

Some of those loses could also be attributed it to Ozzie's use of the bullpen. The second game against the Cubs is a perfect example.

RANDY WILES
06-20-2009, 02:19 PM
Your understanding of the roles and responsibilities of MLB Pitching coaches and Hitting coaches is so thin that I encourage you not to further embarass yourself. Disagreements are welcome and stimulating, but they have to be grounded in some sort of reality.

Rohan
06-20-2009, 02:28 PM
Atleast Alexei was the top webgem :bandance:

Bill Naharodny
06-20-2009, 02:30 PM
I understand building a team around your ballpark, but it just simply hasnt worked with this squad. How many times have we lead the AL in hr's with nothing to show for it?

I wish they would get away from that in order to have a more balance attack that can score runs w/o waiting around for a bomb.

I've always felt that it was basically stupid to build a team with sluggers BECAUSE we play in the Cell. The bottom line to me is that, if it's such a great place to hit the long ball, I'd imagine that guys who hit line drives -- and have a line drive approach -- will have quite a few of those balls end up in the stands.

So why not just try to find good, solid hitters -- and coach them to, you know, go with the pitch and situationally hit, too?

Konerko05
06-20-2009, 02:40 PM
Your understanding of the roles and responsibilities of MLB Pitching coaches and Hitting coaches is so thin that I encourage you not to further embarass yourself. Disagreements are welcome and stimulating, but they have to be grounded in some sort of reality.

Wow, you're hilarious. Please teach me Mr. Walker instead of making vague insulting remarks.

I think the argument of MacDougal's two saves with the Nationals is the one that needs "to be grounded in some sort or reality."

Lip Man 1
06-20-2009, 03:18 PM
Bill:

Well said. Plus the fact that building a team around a ballpark works great IF you play all your games in said park. That's not the case though, you've got 81 road games and in nine of those games you can't use a DH.

As the Sox have shown over the years, that becomes an issue when all you can do is hit home runs generally.

Lip

DickAllen72
06-20-2009, 03:27 PM
Bill:

Well said. Plus the fact that building a team around a ballpark works great IF you play all your games in said park. That's not the case though, you've got 81 road games and in nine of those games you can't use a DH.

As the Sox have shown over the years, that becomes an issue when all you can do is hit home runs generally.

Lip
They're not hitting enough home runs this year.

russ99
06-20-2009, 03:45 PM
IF the Sox had two guys in the lineup who could steal 25 to 30 bases each and if the Sox had two guys in the lineup who could hit .280, bunt, move runners along, set the table they would have that balance and would have enough power at the 3 through 7 spots in the lineup to contend. But they don't.


Lip, you make very valid points, but those kinds of players don't grow on trees, and they're even harder to acquire, especially when ownership cuts payroll and then is hesitant to trade prospects, most of which won't end up making an impact at the major league level. And as I recall players like that were available this year in free agency, and they signed at lower than expected salaries.

I was totally on board with Kenny's management philosophy before, where the key was to get players to make the major league team better at the expense of payroll level and lower level prospects.

But that has changed, and I really have to wonder if Kenny's hands are tied, because this offseason was very much out of character. The "youth movement" has been an utter failure, with maybe Getz as the sole player who could go on to be a solid major league vet. Note: Beckham and Poreda weren't supposed to be on the big league roster this season, so I'm not counting them. The only thing that Kenny's really succeeded with is picking Pods off the scrap heap and giving him a shot to be a major league regular again.

As for this season, it's pretty much gone as expected. We all knew the deficiencies of this club when camp opened, and they're the same ones we see now, with the added misfortune of all our sluggers hurt and/or declining. And unless Kenny changes course, I don't see things getting better until things get much worse.

Just goes to show, rebuilding is for suckers.

Lip Man 1
06-20-2009, 08:17 PM
Dick:

In general that has been the White Sox M.O. this decade and it's a flawed one in my opinion. It's significant the one season they got away from that, they had their finest year since 1917.

-----------

Russ:

I've said the same thing... Kenny completely abandoned his aggressive personality this off season and I don't think it's co-incidence Jerry Reinsdorf came out in a March interview and told the beat writers how "concerned" he was about the Sox losing a lot of ad revenue after this season with expiring deals.

It was an off season out of character for Kenny, however, until factual evidance comes out, that Jerry ordered him to cut back because he was worried about 2010, it's pure speculation and the onus has to fall on him.

Remember Kenny has made errors in judgement before... an example his 2007 bullpen philosophy of all hard throwers (even though the guys he got had little track record of succes at either the major or minor league level and couldn't throw consistent strikes...)

I'm hoping Kenny basically says 'the hell with this...' (i.e. kids who can't play, journeymen, castoff high draft picks from other organizations) this off season and aggressively fills the many holes that he has on this roster, a roster he created.

Yes I know 'speed demons and slap hitters' are hard to get and costly but that's why he makes the money he does, to get things done.

The alternative is fewer season and indivudual tickets being sold and fewer ad deals in a tough economy. Think the Sox want that?

Lip

TommyJohn
06-20-2009, 08:34 PM
Your understanding of the roles and responsibilities of MLB Pitching coaches and Hitting coaches is so thin that I encourage you not to further embarass yourself. Disagreements are welcome and stimulating, but they have to be grounded in some sort of reality.

NADA SURF, is that you?