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View Full Version : Could this team win the division as is ?


NLaloosh
06-15-2009, 01:59 PM
I say "yes"!

If Quentin can come back healthy by the All-Star break then this is one good outfield - Q, Pods, Dye and BA.

Infield - Konerko is solid, Alexei will have a better second half and so will Getz. Beckham, I believe will be much better than Fields and Castro is apparently an improvement.

Starting rotation is looking solid right now with Colon waiting in the wings as a # 6. Floyd and Contreras are at the top of their games. Danks and Buehrle solid. They should be fine.

Bullpen- this pen is about as good as anybody's. They easily have 5 or 6 solid guys.

I think as long as the White Sox can stay ahead of Minnesota they can win the division without making any moves.

Now, ask me again next week.:tongue:

jabrch
06-15-2009, 02:07 PM
Can they? SURE This division sucks.

I don't see KW standing still. Either he moves up or he moves out - that's my guess.

I just don't know where there is a good move to move up. Our holes are in CF, I guess 2B/3B we could send a rook down if the right Vet was here, and if we found a true ACE #1 type SP we would replace our #5/#6 combo. (surely Richard would be a part of that trade package)

If a true middle of the order or leadoff hitting CF was available, that would be a huge difference maker. Those are few and far between, and I can't think of one who is available this year.

Zisk77
06-15-2009, 02:39 PM
Can they? SURE This division sucks.

I don't see KW standing still. Either he moves up or he moves out - that's my guess.

I just don't know where there is a good move to move up. Our holes are in CF, I guess 2B/3B we could send a rook down if the right Vet was here, and if we found a true ACE #1 type SP we would replace our #5/#6 combo. (surely Richard would be a part of that trade package)

If a true middle of the order or leadoff hitting CF was available, that would be a huge difference maker. Those are few and far between, and I can't think of one who is available this year.

Carl Crawford could possible be avaliable. If the rays don't pick up his option he will be a FA next year. While many think they will pick up his option I'm not so sure. They Have Upton, Perez, Joyce, Zobrist (and God knows who else in the minors) an they still are small market.

Matt Holiday will be available (CQ insurance?).

Who thought Nate McClouth would be available?

spawn
06-15-2009, 02:43 PM
I think as long as the White Sox can stay ahead of Minnesota they can win the division without making any moves.

Wouldn't they have to get ahead of Minnesota first?

mccoydp
06-15-2009, 03:30 PM
Wouldn't they have to get ahead of Minnesota first?

Correct. First things first!

pythons007
06-15-2009, 03:34 PM
Sell, sell, sell

LITTLE NELL
06-15-2009, 03:36 PM
The pitching for the most part has been good, we are 5th or 6th in ERA in the AL. For us to win TCQ has to get healthy and perform like he did last year and we need more production at 3B and CF.

russ99
06-15-2009, 03:53 PM
The pitching for the most part has been good, we are 5th or 6th in ERA in the AL. For us to win TCQ has to get healthy and perform like he did last year and we need more production at 3B and CF.

That's a pretty big if. I'm not sold on Carlos coming back at the break and playing at his expected standard. Plantar Faciiitis takes awhile to fully recover from.

If he can't go, then Kenny either needs to buy another hitter and try to win or sell.

TDog
06-15-2009, 05:04 PM
That's a pretty big if. I'm not sold on Carlos coming back at the break and playing at his expected standard. Plantar Faciiitis takes awhile to fully recover from.

If he can't go, then Kenny either needs to buy another hitter and try to win or sell.

Or try to win with what he has. Selling pretty much assures that the team won't be in a position to win for three to five seasons.

The Sox could win the division this year without Quentin. It depends on how well the starting pitching does. If the starters consistently go deep into games and keep the Sox in them, with the bullpen getting more rest and performing more consistently than in the last week, the weak hitters will be in a position to manufacture more runs to win games. The 1967 White Sox were in contention until the last week of the season, and many think they should have gone to the World Series, with no regular hitting higher than .241.

Of course, there's more offense today. But what other teams hit is irrelevant as long as White Sox pitching is good enough to keep them from hitting against the White Sox.

munchman33
06-15-2009, 05:15 PM
Let's see...inconsistent starting pitching, bullpen, and a fairly consistent lack of offense. We're going all the way!

Seriously though, the only reason this is even a topic is because our division is bad. And as assembled, we are visibly not as good as the Tigers. Doesn't mean we couldn't beat them, but it probably means we won't keep up. Getting the most for our aging veterans would be the thing to do. We'll see what happens in the next few weeks.

jdm2662
06-15-2009, 05:19 PM
Here's the thing. With the White Sox under .500, but only 3.5 games out, they gave up on the 1997 season. The whole fan base and city exploded. As of now, they are under .500 and 4.5 games out. Most everyone feels this is not a very good team. So, what happens if they give up on the season if they are still in the same position at the trade deadline. Will the Sox still get blasted for it?

And, didn't the Sox actually have a better record after the trade? Forgive me, but I was boycotting baseball during that time.

Me personally, whatever route the Sox take, I will understand. However, I'm for win all the time, no matter what. There is no such thing as next year.

Lip Man 1
06-15-2009, 06:29 PM
JDM:

The Sox went 27-28 after the ill conceived trade.

Lip

balke
06-15-2009, 07:29 PM
Carl Crawford could possible be avaliable. If the rays don't pick up his option he will be a FA next year. While many think they will pick up his option I'm not so sure. They Have Upton, Perez, Joyce, Zobrist (and God knows who else in the minors) an they still are small market.

Matt Holiday will be available (CQ insurance?).

Who thought Nate McClouth would be available?


A trade for Holiday would be pretty smart... if the A's weren't going to ask for so much. I heard they want an arm and a leg.

He could fill in right away for TCQ, and next season the Sox could have alternating DH's to replace Thome.

doublem23
06-15-2009, 07:47 PM
A trade for Holiday would be pretty smart... if the A's weren't going to ask for so much. I heard they want an arm and a leg.

He could fill in right away for TCQ, and next season the Sox could have alternating DH's to replace Thome.

Holliday's slugging percentage this year is the lowest of his career, and over 100 points lower than his career average.

Pass.

tm1119
06-15-2009, 08:03 PM
Honestly, does it matter? At some point this team is going to have to rebuild. We cant keep patching this thing up so that we barely squeak into the playoffs and then lose in the 1st round. The question should be, Can this team win the World Series? And the obvious answer to that question is no.

Tragg
06-15-2009, 08:25 PM
Yes, we could win the division as is. Not likely but possible.
I certainly wouldn't move any young talent to bring in a temporary veteran.

Zisk77
06-15-2009, 09:19 PM
Holliday's slugging percentage this year is the lowest of his career, and over 100 points lower than his career average.

Pass.

He is also on a crappy team and in a new league where he doen't know the pitchers. I wouldn't worry too much about those stats. he's a young guy still and not in decline.

However, it would probably be wiser to get him in free agency next year if we want him.

Brian26
06-15-2009, 10:02 PM
He is also on a crappy team and in a new league where he doen't know the pitchers. I wouldn't worry too much about those stats. he's a young guy still and not in decline.

However, it would probably be wiser to get him in free agency next year if we want him.

Peter Pascarelli on ESPN staunchly believes that Holiday's numbers at Coors off NL pitching were inflated to begin with.

1989
06-15-2009, 10:26 PM
this team needs to hit better with RISP. That is what has killed the white sox so far this year. The offense needs to step it up with runners on 2nd and 3rd. That is what made the Twins last year so successful and a reason as to why they are struggling this year. AVG with RISP means everything

tm1119
06-15-2009, 10:28 PM
Peter Pascarelli on ESPN staunchly believes that Holiday's numbers at Coors off NL pitching were inflated to begin with.

I don't doubt that his numbers were inflated, but to what degree? From '06 to '08 his average season was about .330 AVG, .390 OBP, 30 HR's, and 110 RBI's. So does that mean? Take him out of Colorado and the NL and his numbers drop to .300, .370, 25, and 90? I'll take that anyday. And lets not forget that The Cell isnt exactly a pitchers park. If we could trade for him and get to him agree to an extension before it would be a great move.
What would it take though? Would something like Poreda, Retherford, Flowers be enough?

central44
06-16-2009, 12:51 AM
Well, I think Beckham and Getz are going to have a stronger second half. They were still new to the MLB, making the adjustments. Getz should improve and I think Beckham is a fast enough learner that he can make himself relevant soon as well--he's already shown flashes of being a great hitter, and if he continues to put the ball in play without striking out, he can contribute in a spot where the Sox haven't got production.

Danks, Floyd, and Contreras have all begun to turn themselves around after horrid starts. If they can keep it going, and Buehrle stays as strong as he has been, this could be a potentially dominant pitching staff.

Not to mention playing without the guy who would have cruised to an MVP award last year if he hadn't gotten hurt--a guy who single handedly carried this team through some stretches where it couldn't get offense going at all.

They've played 64 games, I believe off the top of my head, leaving 98 to go. They are 4.5 games back in a terrible division, behind a team that frankly, I don't think is that dominant. Playing without Quentin, along with their talented pitchers not only failing to live up to last year, but being terrible, and with young guys who are getting their feet wet for the first time means that this team very likely has an entirely new level they can reach that we haven't seen yet.

I'm not saying it's probable that they win it, but this team has the potential to be like the 2008/2009 Bulls. They were awful in the beginning, then the young guys started putting it together and the team found its identity. They were the 3rd or 4th best team in the Eastern conference even though they finished with a 41-41 record and the 7th seed, and they scared the hell out of the Celtics.

Also, if the 2006 Cardinals can win a World Series, anyone can. Another move wouldn't hurt, but it wouldn't be smart to gut this team at the moment, considering what we have waiting in Charlotte. Its best if we ride it out, let what happens happen, then let the vets walk and use the money we save in free agency to rebuild this team into legit title contender next year.

CWSpalehoseCWS
06-16-2009, 02:16 AM
Of course this team could win the division, especially if a healthy Quentin comes back. But they need to win consistently. None of this crap that's been happening throughout June where they look good one game, then absolutly pathetic another. And there is no way KW stands pat with this team if they're still in it nearing the trade deadline. Somehow I see us getting a bat to produce a little more consistently for either 2B, 3B, or CF.

fox23
06-16-2009, 07:42 AM
Also, if the 2006 Cardinals can win a World Series, anyone can. Another move wouldn't hurt, but it wouldn't be smart to gut this team at the moment, considering what we have waiting in Charlotte. Its best if we ride it out, let what happens happen, then let the vets walk and use the money we save in free agency to rebuild this team into legit title contender next year.


I agree with this 100%. Anything could happen if the Sox can get into the playoffs. With a bad division this year and potentially for the next year or two, this seems like the best time to not sell. I'll take a pretty decent chance at making the playoffs now over MAYBE being better 3 years from now when the division could be stronger (let's face it, it can't get any worse).

Frater Perdurabo
06-16-2009, 07:46 AM
Take him out of Colorado and the NL and his numbers drop to .300, .370, 25, and 90? I'll take that anyday. And lets not forget that The Cell isnt exactly a pitchers park.

Yes, both the Cell and Coors Field are "hitters parks." But they are vastly different kinds of hitters parks.

The Cell has short dimensions, especially in the power alleys, and the power alley measurements are taken from closer to CF than they are to the poles. This means it has small gaps, so fewer fly balls and line drives fall in for base hits. If you want to hit a double at the Cell, you pretty much have to have your ball hit the OF wall. Triples are almost nonexistent. Home runs are the only kind of hit ball that the Cell "promotes."

Coors Field actually has deep dimensions, so the gaps are much larger, meaning that many more fly balls fall in for hits. More hits go for doubles and triples, too. And the lighter air makes the ball fly greater distances, meaning that many fly balls and line drives either will go over the heads of the outfielders for extra bases, or the outfielder need to play much deeper. This means more soft flies fall in for hits, too. And the lighter air also makes more balls fly over the fence.

So the Cell is a HR-friendly park, but not friendly for batting average, singles, doubles or triples.

Coors "promotes" all types of hits and therefore inflates batting averages. The HR numbers have declined somewhat since the Rockies began putting all game baseballs in the humidor, but the park still encourages higher batting averages, singles, doubles and triples.

palehozenychicty
06-16-2009, 10:28 AM
Yes, both the Cell and Coors Field are "hitters parks." But they are vastly different kinds of hitters parks.

The Cell has short dimensions, especially in the power alleys, and the power alley measurements are taken from closer to CF than they are to the poles. This means it has small gaps, so fewer fly balls and line drives fall in for base hits. If you want to hit a double at the Cell, you pretty much have to have your ball hit the OF wall. Triples are almost nonexistent. Home runs are the only kind of hit ball that the Cell "promotes."

Coors Field actually has deep dimensions, so the gaps are much larger, meaning that many more fly balls fall in for hits. More hits go for doubles and triples, too. And the lighter air makes the ball fly greater distances, meaning that many fly balls and line drives either will go over the heads of the outfielders for extra bases, or the outfielder need to play much deeper. This means more soft flies fall in for hits, too. And the lighter air also makes more balls fly over the fence.

So the Cell is a HR-friendly park, but not friendly for batting average, singles, doubles or triples.

Coors "promotes" all types of hits and therefore inflates batting averages. The HR numbers have declined somewhat since the Rockies began putting all game baseballs in the humidor, but the park still encourages higher batting averages, singles, doubles and triples.

Which is why the Sox haven't had many .300 hitters over the past several years but consistently among the league leaders in homers. All of those extra base hits are suppressed into homers or outs. In Colorado, any hit ball to the outfield is an adventure.

palehozenychicty
06-16-2009, 10:30 AM
As for the topic, I think that you will see improvement from Beckham and Getz, and the starters have thrown the ball well. I just don't know if the offense is versatile enough to win games consistently, even with the youngster's improvements. You cannot rely on Q this year. My answer is possibly, but not likely.

Cangelosi CF
06-16-2009, 10:34 AM
Yes, this division is mediocre.

I wonder what KW has up his sleeve....

slavko
06-16-2009, 11:34 AM
Which is why the Sox haven't had many .300 hitters over the past several years but consistently among the league leaders in homers. All of those extra base hits are suppressed into homers or outs. In Colorado, any hit ball to the outfield is an adventure.

I wish the park was bigger. Not Original Comiskey big, but bigger. But...the train has left the station on that one.

jabrch
06-16-2009, 12:09 PM
this team needs to hit better with RISP. That is what has killed the white sox so far this year. The offense needs to step it up with runners on 2nd and 3rd. That is what made the Twins last year so successful and a reason as to why they are struggling this year. AVG with RISP means everything

The problem is that Ave with RISP may not actually be something you can fix. If you hit well, and your distribution of your hits skews to be unfavorable to RISP, it is possible that this is just an outlier and not a skill defect that can be fixed. I'm not convinced that hitting and hitting with RISP are two different skills. And if you look at the Twins, and see it as the same team from year to year, and see that huge difference, it really makes you wonder if that is anything other than a statistical anomaly.

To me, it is similar to the Cubs firing Perry. That was the best offense in baseball last year. Was he a great hitting coach then? If he was, why fire him? Why is he suddenly so terrible? I doubt he was that great last year - now is he that bad this year.

NLaloosh
06-16-2009, 12:19 PM
I honestly think that if Kenny made no more moves that this team would end up winning the division.

Like some have said, I would not give up young talent for a rent-a-veteran.

I disagree with some that a total rebuilding is needed at some point. I think a future infield of Beckham, Ramirez and Getz would be fine for years. Konerko is fine to keep around for another year at first base and possibly beyond at DH - or not.

Outfield - bring back Dye for atleast one more year - possibly DH after that. This is where the Sox could really use one more good outfielder for next year.

They could also use one more top tier starting pitcher. That's about it. They have a lot of good young talent ready, near ready and on the way.

If they add one impact free agent next year they could go all the way. I say this team and organization are looking pretty good right now.

If I were Kenny I wouldn't make any moves out of desperation. He's in a good spot to wait for something to develop that he can take advantage of.

Eddo144
06-16-2009, 01:04 PM
The problem is that Ave with RISP may not actually be something you can fix. If you hit well, and your distribution of your hits skews to be unfavorable to RISP, it is possible that this is just an outlier and not a skill defect that can be fixed. I'm not convinced that hitting and hitting with RISP are two different skills. And if you look at the Twins, and see it as the same team from year to year, and see that huge difference, it really makes you wonder if that is anything other than a statistical anomaly.
Exactly. With runners in scoring position, I'd want my best hitter, period, up. I don't care if some lesser player is "more clutch" or some other mumbo jumbo.

russ99
06-16-2009, 01:38 PM
Well, I think Beckham and Getz are going to have a stronger second half. They were still new to the MLB, making the adjustments. Getz should improve and I think Beckham is a fast enough learner that he can make himself relevant soon as well--he's already shown flashes of being a great hitter, and if he continues to put the ball in play without striking out, he can contribute in a spot where the Sox haven't got production.

Danks, Floyd, and Contreras have all begun to turn themselves around after horrid starts. If they can keep it going, and Buehrle stays as strong as he has been, this could be a potentially dominant pitching staff.

Not to mention playing without the guy who would have cruised to an MVP award last year if he hadn't gotten hurt--a guy who single handedly carried this team through some stretches where it couldn't get offense going at all.

They've played 64 games, I believe off the top of my head, leaving 98 to go. They are 4.5 games back in a terrible division, behind a team that frankly, I don't think is that dominant. Playing without Quentin, along with their talented pitchers not only failing to live up to last year, but being terrible, and with young guys who are getting their feet wet for the first time means that this team very likely has an entirely new level they can reach that we haven't seen yet.



I'd like to believe that, but my biggest concern is the current injury status of Konerko, Dye and Thome.

Paul's got the chronic thumb thing that reminds me way too much of the injury Bagwell couldn't play in pain with (granted, that was the shoulder) that ended his career, Thome can't run at full speed and has back issues, and Dye needed to sit on Sunday in order to get 2 days rest.

We really have no one to replace those three guys so if any or many of them are out for significant time, we're done for, with or without Carlos Quentin.

TDog
06-16-2009, 02:16 PM
The problem is that Ave with RISP may not actually be something you can fix. If you hit well, and your distribution of your hits skews to be unfavorable to RISP, it is possible that this is just an outlier and not a skill defect that can be fixed. I'm not convinced that hitting and hitting with RISP are two different skills. And if you look at the Twins, and see it as the same team from year to year, and see that huge difference, it really makes you wonder if that is anything other than a statistical anomaly.

To me, it is similar to the Cubs firing Perry. That was the best offense in baseball last year. Was he a great hitting coach then? If he was, why fire him? Why is he suddenly so terrible? I doubt he was that great last year - now is he that bad this year.

I agree. In the series against Detroit, Adam Everett turned out to be a pretty good hitter with runners in scoring position. Jermaine Dye did not. That doesn't mean that Everett is intrinsically better with runners in scoring position than Dye. I don't have to look at their career averages. In the 1985 World Series against the White Sox, Dye got the hit that drove in the only run in Game 4. In the bottom of the ninth with one out and a runner in scoring position, Garner pinch-hit for Everett, who had no RBIs in the series. World Series MVP Dye was the better hitter with runners in scoring position in the most important series the White Sox played in my lifetime.

You can look back at a game, at a series, at a month or a season and say the problem is a team didn't hit with runners in scoring position. It may be true that some players don't have it in them, but such players are the ones who don't hit without runners in scoring position. Teamwise, it may be a matter of having the right people up at the right time. One of the players who didn't hit with runners in scoring position Sunday in Milwaukee was Mark Buehrle (people got excited that he advanced a the runner from second to third with two outs, but for any other hitter it would have been a failed at bat). If the bottom of your lineup where overall averages are lower is getting most of the at bats with runners in scoring position, your averages in that area are bound to be lower. But I think it would be silly to argue that Jeff Supan getting a big hit to drive in a run against the White Sox isn't a reflection so much on the Brewers being intrinsically better in hitting with runners in scoring position. Baseball isn't a go-to sport, where you can design plays that put the ball in the hands of your best people when you're in position to score.

And, of course, averages are just that, and are often skewed by blowout games. Last year the Twins hit .305 with runners in scoring position for the season. In Game 163, they didn't get any hits and had at least two at bats with runners in scoring position that I recall, including an opportunity with a man on third and less than two outs. Their average didn't mean anything in the most important game of the season or in the two games they lost in the previous three games. They scored just three runs in those two losses and only one was the result of a hit with a runner in scoring position.

There might be players, as Ken Harrelson might put it, who aren't afraid to hit with runners in scoring position, and there may be some who are. As a team, I don't think players on the White Sox are.