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Sockinchisox
06-14-2009, 11:38 AM
Fired because of struggles on offense, Hendry says Cubs need "a different voice."

http://blogs.chicagosports.chicagotribune.com/sports_hardball/2009/06/cubs-fire-hitting-coach-gerald-perry-promote-von-joshua.html

DickAllen72
06-14-2009, 12:18 PM
How novel.

tstrike2000
06-14-2009, 12:41 PM
http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/news/story?id=4257747

I only mention this because I have wished for a few years now the Sox would've done the same thing. Ironically, too is he's being replaced by Von Joshua, formerly hitting coach of the Sox.

DumpJerry
06-14-2009, 12:46 PM
Yeah, this will turn things around. :rolleyes: As Rongey pointed out on a recent post-game show: by the time the players hit The Show, they should have the basic skills down pat. Changing a batting coach is not going to change much since the coach is not the one who is stepping up the Plate.

Has anyone every tracked changes in a team's offensive performance after a hitting coach is given the heave-ho? Or the pitching staff's performance after the pitching coach is sent to the showers?

Firing a coach mid-season is usually rearranging the deck chairs on The Titanic.

Johnny Mostil
06-14-2009, 12:46 PM
http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/news/story?id=4257747

I only mention this because I have wished for a few years now the Sox would've done the same thing. Ironically, too is he's being replaced by Von Joshua, formerly hitting coach of the Sox.

It will be interesting to see if it makes any difference.

TheOldRoman
06-14-2009, 01:01 PM
Hmm, Cubs hitters struggle at start of season - coach fired.
Sox hitter struggle for over three consecutive years - nope.

I have no idea why Walker is employed, but at this point, it should be clear to all that he will have this job until he retires, or until Ozzie leaves. The rallying cry from the Walker apologists for the last few years has been "These are all vets, they already know how to hit, and the coach will have no influence on them." Now that we have several young players up, some of who are very talented, the line is "He can't mold crap."

So, which is it? If he can't be blamed for veterans not hitting, and he can't be blamed for young players not hitting, what does he actually do?

thedudeabides
06-14-2009, 01:04 PM
Yeah, this will turn things around. :rolleyes: As Rongey pointed out on a recent post-game show: by the time the players hit The Show, they should have the basic skills down pat. Changing a batting coach is not going to change much since the coach is not the one who is stepping up the Plate.

Has anyone every tracked changes in a team's offensive performance after a hitting coach is given the heave-ho? Or the pitching staff's performance after the pitching coach is sent to the showers?

Firing a coach mid-season is usually rearranging the deck chairs on The Titanic.

I'd be interested to know. I'm sure there has been some good results, but my guess would be that the majority of the time it hasn't helped much.

I get the feeling Lou is getting towards the end of his coaching career, and Hendry gives him a lot of say on the team. He seems to make changes with a sense of urgency, which is something I like on a contending team. I doubt Perry was really at fault, as they have had injuries and a bunch of transactions that just haven't worked out on the offensive side. I believe they had the number one scoring offense in the National League last year. I'd imagine his coaching style has changed much since.

thedudeabides
06-14-2009, 01:11 PM
Hmm, Cubs hitters struggle at start of season - coach fired.
Sox hitter struggle for over three consecutive years - nope.

I have no idea why Walker is employed, but at this point, it should be clear to all that he will have this job until he retires, or until Ozzie leaves. The rallying cry from the Walker apologists for the last few years has been "These are all vets, they already know how to hit, and the coach will have no influence on them." Now that we have several young players up, some of who are very talented, the line is "He can't mold crap."

So, which is it? If he can't be blamed for veterans not hitting, and he can't be blamed for young players not hitting, what does he actually do?

The Sox were 5th in the American league in scoring last year, and 6th overall. The offense had some flaws last year, but I would hardly say they struggled.

jabrch
06-14-2009, 01:41 PM
It will be interesting to see if it makes any difference.

It will also be impossible to correlate any improvement to what he does. That was one of the best offenses in baseball last year with the same coaches.

TDog
06-14-2009, 01:41 PM
If the Cubs front office wants to make a difference, they would be better off firing Lou Piniella. Hiring a new hitting coach to work with hitters who come to the team with various styles and approaches won't help the hitters. It isn't as if Soriano needs coaching to raise his average above .250. It isn't as if Bradley needs a coach to show him how to hit.

I know there are White Sox fans who want to see Walker fired, but generally you can blame the manager for most hitting coaches being fired. If the coach is a personal favorite of the manager, management firing the coach is a notice to the manager. If the manager, in public or behind the scenes blames the hitting coach for a team's problems, the manager is out to save his own job.

With Nardi Contreras, the White Sox had philosophical differences that resulted in Don Cooper coming in to coach the pitchers. Such differences don't exist with Greg Walker.

jabrch
06-14-2009, 01:45 PM
So, which is it? If he can't be blamed for veterans not hitting, and he can't be blamed for young players not hitting, what does he actually do?

Virtually the same thing as every other hitting coach...At the majors, your hitting mechanics are either good or bad. Wise, BA, etc...they are bad hitters. PK, JD, etc....they are good hitters. Getz, Beckham, etc - they have a swing or they don't. All a hitting coach really should be doing with them is helping them prepare each day for their matchups. If they needs hitting instruction, they shouldn't be here.

I think hitting coach is the most overrated coaching role in all of sports.

Soxfest
06-14-2009, 01:48 PM
At least 1 Chicago team has sense enough to cut bait!:angry:

jabrch
06-14-2009, 02:07 PM
The Sox were 5th in the American league in scoring last year, and 6th overall. The offense had some flaws last year, but I would hardly say they struggled.

Please stop muddying up the waters with facts.

Johnny Mostil
06-14-2009, 02:07 PM
It will also be impossible to correlate any improvement to what he does. That was one of the best offenses in baseball last year with the same coaches.

Ah, but same coaches no more!

To be clear (evidently I wasn't): I don't think it will make any difference.

jdm2662
06-14-2009, 02:11 PM
Dump, to answer your question.

In 2005, the Indians offense was rather meh and they were hovering around .500. They fired Eddie Murray, and the Indians hitting took off big time. It got to a point where they almost looked unstoppable. Surprised we all forgot about that. We had a pretty big scare during that time.

Changing coaches sometimes works or doesn't. However, when a team wants to shake things up, they can't trade half of the roster. so, the coach goes.

35th and Shields
06-14-2009, 02:13 PM
Sometimes a change in scenery is all it takes.

All the guys on the team, except for some of the young guys, have learned everything from Walk that he has to going to tell them. I don't see how getting another hitting coach would be a bad thing. It's another person going about things a little differently and maybe he knows a thing or two about rookie pitchers.

tstrike2000
06-14-2009, 02:20 PM
Virtually the same thing as every other hitting coach...At the majors, your hitting mechanics are either good or bad. Wise, BA, etc...they are bad hitters. PK, JD, etc....they are good hitters. Getz, Beckham, etc - they have a swing or they don't. All a hitting coach really should be doing with them is helping them prepare each day for their matchups. If they needs hitting instruction, they shouldn't be here.

I think hitting coach is the most overrated coaching role in all of sports.

I think we've established that hitters at the MLB level should already know how to hit. That said, proven major league hitters go through their struggles, too. Overrated or not, hardest uniformed coaching job (according to Hawk) or not, a hitting coach can help the mental psyche when a hitter is going through a funk and help with hitting mechanics when mistakes are being made. From that standpoint, what does Walker do? I think he should've been gone a long time ago.

DumpJerry
06-14-2009, 03:24 PM
Dump, to answer your question.

In 2005, the Indians offense was rather meh and they were hovering around .500. They fired Eddie Murray, and the Indians hitting took off big time. It got to a point where they almost looked unstoppable. Surprised we all forgot about that. We had a pretty big scare during that time.

Changing coaches sometimes works or doesn't. However, when a team wants to shake things up, they can't trade half of the roster. so, the coach goes.
Ok, that is one example out of dozens of such firings. We should also remember the Tribe's hitting went south on them the last 10 games or so of the season when they needed it the most.

Also, 2005 it part of a pattern the Indians have shown over the past few years of playing the first half of the season like a 6th grade Little League team and the second half like the 1927 Yankees.

soxfanreggie
06-14-2009, 04:49 PM
I don't think this change will have much impact on the team, as I don't think a major league hitting coach has as much impact as a AA or AAA in developing players; however, he can be there to correct minor flaws, etc. This is just the easiest "shake-up" that the Cubs can make without going out and acquiring a new player or making a bigger coaching move.

jabrch
06-14-2009, 05:25 PM
From that standpoint, what does Walker do?

Enough to keep OG, KW and JR content. I believe that they all know more about what Walker does and more about what a MLB hitting coach does than I do. I'll trust that A) they are acting in what they believe is the club's best interest and B) that they are right.

If management felt that they could improve the club by getting rid of Walker, do you think they would? Or do you think they have an unconditional loyalty to Greg?

Frater Perdurabo
06-14-2009, 05:31 PM
Or do you think they have an unconditional loyalty to Greg?

I think this organization has an unconditional loyalty to unconditional loyalty.

jabrch
06-14-2009, 05:35 PM
I think this organization has an unconditional loyalty to unconditional loyalty.

So, correct me if I misunderstand you...

Your belief is that even if OG, KW and JR knew that Walker was bad for the club, they'd keep him because he is Greg Walker?

Daver
06-14-2009, 05:45 PM
While I doubt this will make a significant difference in anything at all, I am happy that Von and Janet get to return to Chicago, Von got a raw deal when he was fired as a scapegoat for Jerry Manuel.

thedudeabides
06-14-2009, 06:35 PM
I think this organization has an unconditional loyalty to unconditional loyalty.

Not true at all. They have fired quite a few coaches under the Kenny Williams era, including Von Joshua, who is taking over for the Cubs. He was as much a sacrificial lamb as Walker would be right now.

Rohan
06-14-2009, 07:04 PM
Scape goat...

Frater Perdurabo
06-14-2009, 07:19 PM
So, correct me if I misunderstand you...

Your belief is that even if OG, KW and JR knew that Walker was bad for the club, they'd keep him because he is Greg Walker?

No.

I think that the organization's over-emphasis on loyalty often clouds their ability to make clear-eyed judgments, at many if not most levels (both on the baseball and on the non-baseball sides; just look at how long Rob Gallas had a job).

I think they can see obvious incompetence. But loyalty keeps them from distinguishing between mediocrity and excellence in a loyal employee. I think Walker is mediocre as an MLB hitting coach and that there are many better hitting coaches in MLB. But because Walker is unquestionably loyal, the organization is loyal to him, and doesn't see that he's actually quite mediocre.

In other words, Greg Walker the MLB hitting coach is mediocre in the same way that Greg Walker the player was mediocre. OTOH, Rudy Jaramillo and Gene Tenace are to hitting coaches, what Frank Thomas and Ken Griffey Jr. are to hitters: the best of their era. Loyalty keeps many in the Sox organization from discerning the difference.

russ99
06-14-2009, 08:38 PM
Please stop muddying up the waters with facts.

The Sox may have been 5th in the AL in scoring last year, but they were 10th in hits, 11th in Batting Average and 9th in OBP.

This year it's R-12th, H-12th, and 13th in BA, 10th in OBP.

No excuses for Walker's continual poor performance...