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View Full Version : Black Jack's Take On Ozzie / Beckham and the 09 Season


Lip Man 1
06-12-2009, 11:23 AM
After the column he interacts with readers, that's where he talks about Fields and the 09 season. He doesn't sound very optimistic:

http://www.chicagonow.com/blogs/black-jack-white-sox/2009/06/white-sox-beckham-needs-to-just-play.html

Lip

Law11
06-12-2009, 11:57 AM
I cant imagine this board if GB went 0-41 to start.

Jim Shorts
06-12-2009, 11:59 AM
I cant imagine this board if GB went 0-41 to start.

Yeah, it's a good think Al Gore hadn't invented the Internets yet when Robin broke into the league.

LoveYourSuit
06-12-2009, 11:59 AM
After the column he interacts with readers, that's where he talks about Fields and the 09 season. He doesn't sound very optimistic:

http://www.chicagonow.com/blogs/black-jack-white-sox/2009/06/white-sox-beckham-needs-to-just-play.html

Lip


Black Jack ripping into Ozzie a bit because of his "dislike" for Gordon?

I guess it's just not all the nut cases on this board like myself who noticed this.

Stormin' Norm
06-12-2009, 12:09 PM
I'm not one to usually interject myself into these types of debates, but I have to agree with McDowell's stance. Does it serve Beckham any good to get sporadic at bats when he could be getting 4 every day in the minors?

IMO, last season's success was more of an abberation than the start they've got off to this year. I think it's important over the course of this year to objectively figure out what we've got and what we need to get. It's doesn't matter if we get there through addition by subtraction, new coaches, or with the players we currently have figuring it out. The imporant thing is not sitting on the fence pissing in the wind. I say let the kids play and field the best lineup we can.

palehozenychicty
06-12-2009, 12:09 PM
I agree with him 100%. They shouldn't have brought up the guy if he isn't guaranteed playing time. A comment said that Fields is proven. Proven to suck. We're not taking out an All-Star here.

TheVulture
06-12-2009, 12:53 PM
I guess it's just not all the nut cases on this board like myself who noticed this.

This kind of indicates Jack is a nut case on this board like yourself:

http://www.chicagonow.com/blogs/black-jack-white-sox/2009/06/white-sox-interactive.html

longtimesoxguy
06-12-2009, 12:59 PM
You know I don't care what Black Jack has to say about our team!!!!!!

thedudeabides
06-12-2009, 01:01 PM
I agree with him 100%. They shouldn't have brought up the guy if he isn't guaranteed playing time. A comment said that Fields is proven. Proven to suck. We're not taking out an All-Star here.

Well, he's played almost every day since he's been up. He sat the front end of a double header and a game after he went 0-3 and only saw 3 pitches. He said himself he probably needed the day off to think about his appproach.

At first, most around here were worried he was going to be bounced around the infield, which hasn't happened yet. And I don't think Ozzie has a problem with Beckham, I think he had a problem with the decision to bring him up, and he's trying to temper some people's expectations. One of Ozzie's strengths is reading his players, so I don't think he would have made some of the comments if he thought they would get to Gordon.

LoveYourSuit
06-12-2009, 01:07 PM
This kind of indicates Jack is a nut case on this board like yourself:

http://www.chicagonow.com/blogs/black-jack-white-sox/2009/06/white-sox-interactive.html

HA.

So he broke your heart too because he bashed "Jesus" Guillen?

Britt Burns
06-12-2009, 01:17 PM
Black Jack is awesome, and in this case he is absolutely correct.

TheVulture
06-12-2009, 01:38 PM
HA.

So he broke your heart too because he bashed "Jesus" Guillen?

No, I'm just saying he seems to indicate that he posts on this board. I'm waiting on his response to what his screen name is.

LoveYourSuit
06-12-2009, 01:38 PM
No, I'm just saying he seems to indicate that he posts on this board.


That would be curious to find you who he is....

Huisj
06-12-2009, 01:41 PM
Where is the idea coming from that Beckham has been only getting sporadic at bats? I keep seeing people mention how he needs consistent playing time as if he's not getting that right now. Since being recalled, he's has played complete games (all at the same position) on:

June 4
June 5
June 7
June 8
June 9
June 10
June 11

So he sat one game of a double header and one game a few days after he got called up (after admitting that he hadn't hardly gotten any sleep at all since the recall). Am I missing something about him not getting consistent playing time?

ode to veeck
06-12-2009, 01:45 PM
I can't imagine Lip if Beckman doesn't get any more hits for the next two weeks LOL

thedudeabides
06-12-2009, 02:01 PM
That would be curious to find you who he is....

If he does, he'd be smart to keep that to himself.

Irishsox1
06-12-2009, 02:06 PM
Robin's 0-41 slump in 1990 was nasty and a lot of people were talking about it, but the Sox in 1990 didn't have someone like Josh Fields already there, it was basically Robin or no one so the pressure wasn't the same, also Robin had the NCAA record for longest hitting streak so everyone knew he could hit, it's was just a matter of time.

As for Jack McDowell, the guy is a flake and a clown and always has been. His awesome 10.00 era in the 1993 playoffs is not forgotten nor is his wonderful performance of flipping off the home Yankee fans either. I'd take anything he says with a grain of salt.

TheVulture
06-12-2009, 02:14 PM
Robin's 0-41 slump in 1990 was nasty and a lot of people were talking about it, but the Sox in 1990 didn't have someone like Josh Fields already there, it was basically Robin or no one so the pressure wasn't the same, also Robin had the NCAA record for longest hitting streak so everyone knew he could hit, it's was just a matter of time.


Actually, they had a very similar player in Carlos Martinez - god awful in the field, showed early in his career he may have had some hitting talent, yet ended up not able to hit his way out of a paper sack. Beckham, like Ventura, was one of the top NCAA players who everyone knows can hit.

spawn
06-12-2009, 02:16 PM
Black Jack ripping into Ozzie a bit because of his "dislike" for Gordon?

I guess it's just not all the nut cases on this board like myself who noticed this.
Yep. He hates him about as much as he hates BA. Probably the only player on the roster Ozzie DOES like is Dewayne Wise.

You people really kill me with this ****.

Konerko05
06-12-2009, 02:18 PM
As for Jack McDowell, the guy is a flake and a clown and always has been. His awesome 10.00 era in the 1993 playoffs is not forgotten nor is his wonderful performance of flipping off the home Yankee fans either. I'd take anything he says with a grain of salt.

Yeah, who needs insight from a guy who spent 12 years in the MLB, played 7 years in the White Sox organization, and knows the White Sox management and coaching staff?

He couldn't possibly know anything about the mentality of a major league baseball player. What would he know about breaking into the major leagues? Certainly not as much as me.

Iwritecode
06-12-2009, 02:23 PM
Robin's 0-41 slump in 1990 was nasty and a lot of people were talking about it, but the Sox in 1990 didn't have someone like Josh Fields already there, it was basically Robin or no one so the pressure wasn't the same, also Robin had the NCAA record for longest hitting streak so everyone knew he could hit, it's was just a matter of time.

As for Jack McDowell, the guy is a flake and a clown and always has been. His awesome 10.00 era in the 1993 playoffs is not forgotten nor is his wonderful performance of flipping off the home Yankee fans either. I'd take anything he says with a grain of salt.

Since when does baseball playing ability equate to baseball knowledge?

Big D
06-12-2009, 02:33 PM
Robin's 0-41 slump in 1990 was nasty and a lot of people were talking about it, but the Sox in 1990 didn't have someone like Josh Fields already there, it was basically Robin or no one so the pressure wasn't the same, also Robin had the NCAA record for longest hitting streak so everyone knew he could hit, it's was just a matter of time.

As for Jack McDowell, the guy is a flake and a clown and always has been. His awesome 10.00 era in the 1993 playoffs is not forgotten nor is his wonderful performance of flipping off the home Yankee fans either. I'd take anything he says with a grain of salt.

Who among us hasn't wanted to flip Yankee fans off occasionally?

Frankie5Angels
06-12-2009, 03:30 PM
Black Jack is spot on and I have been saying OG has a problem with Bacon. Here is another article that OG commented on Bacon getting his first hit. I Really hope OG doesn't ruin this kid. It sounds like he may be mad that his boy Wise gets booed and Bacon doesn't no matter what he does.

http://www.southtownstar.com/sports/1615287,061009sptsoxnotebook.article

spawn
06-12-2009, 03:49 PM
Black Jack is spot on and I have been saying OG has a problem with Bacon. Here is another article that OG commented on Bacon getting his first hit. I Really hope OG doesn't ruin this kid. It sounds like he may be mad that his boy Wise gets booed and Bacon doesn't no matter what he does.

http://www.southtownstar.com/sports/1615287,061009sptsoxnotebook.article
Well, he's absolutely correct. I've never seen people cheer a routine play made by a 3rd baseman like they do Beckham. He's getting all of the hype, yet so far, offensively, he hasn't produced. he sounds like a manager trying to manage expectations of his rookie callup. :shrug:

Frankie5Angels
06-12-2009, 03:54 PM
Well, he's absolutely correct. I've never seen people cheer a routine play made by a 3rd baseman like they do Beckham. He's getting all of the hype, yet so far, offensively, he hasn't produced. he sounds like a manager trying to manage expectations of his rookie callup. :shrug:
They cheer because he is doing just that, making a routine play, something Fields couldn't do. Offensively, he only has 2 hits, but his AB's have been some of the best on the team since he has been called up. I like his approach, alot better than Wise, Fields, Getz, or any of the other guys who are struggling.

areilly
06-12-2009, 03:54 PM
As for Jack McDowell, the guy is a flake and a clown and always has been. His awesome 10.00 era in the 1993 playoffs is not forgotten nor is his wonderful performance of flipping off the home Yankee fans either.

I'll never forget that, either. Still ranks among the most awesome things ever.

spawn
06-12-2009, 03:55 PM
They cheer because he is doing just that, making a routine play, something Fields couldn't do. Offensively, he only has 2 hits, but his AB's have been some of the best on the team since he has been called up. I like his approach, alot better than Wise, Fields, Getz, or any of the other guys who are struggling.
I like his approach as well, but so far his approach hasn't translated into production.

It's Dankerific
06-12-2009, 03:56 PM
Well, he's absolutely correct. I've never seen people cheer a routine play made by a 3rd baseman like they do Beckham. He's getting all of the hype, yet so far, offensively, he hasn't produced. he sounds like a manager trying to manage expectations of his rookie callup. :shrug:

This season there has been plenty of press about Matt Weiter from Baltimore, the new OF for the Pirates, the new pitcher for Atlanta, and a possible call up for Texas.

Plenty of hype and cheering going around for prospects.

The team hypes these kids and then the manager is surprised when people support them? Does he understand what advertising is meant for?

Just today I got an email from the Sox describing the new draft picks.

It's Dankerific
06-12-2009, 03:57 PM
They cheer because he is doing just that, making a routine play, something Fields couldn't do. Offensively, he only has 2 hits, but his AB's have been some of the best on the team since he has been called up. I like his approach, alot better than Wise, Fields, Getz, or any of the other guys who are struggling.

Yep, I guess the fans feel they should cheer for routine plays since even those were hard to come by recently.

By a prospect who has barely played 3rd!

By a prospect we want to give a load of support and confidence to!

What shall we do? treat him like a veteran player making more than the minimum?

Frankie5Angels
06-12-2009, 04:00 PM
Yep, I guess the fans feel they should cheer for routine plays since even those were hard to come by recently.

By a prospect who has barely played 3rd!

By a prospect we want to give a load of support and confidence to!

What shall we do? treat him like a veteran player making more than the minimum?
I guess OG wants us to boo the kid, and really try to kill any confidence he has. I guess since we boo the **** out of his boy Wise, he wants us to do the same to Bacon.

It's Dankerific
06-12-2009, 04:03 PM
I guess OG wants us to boo the kid, and really try to kill any confidence he has. I guess since we boo the **** out of his boy Wise, he wants us to do the same to Bacon.

I wont suppose exactly what his motives are, but I do wonder how he wishes we would treat Bacon.

I mean, What negative thing could possibly come from the fans cheering Bacon on???

He wont want to carry Paulie's luggage?

Jim Shorts
06-12-2009, 04:06 PM
I guess OG wants us to boo the kid, and really try to kill any confidence he has. I guess since we boo the **** out of his boy Wise, he wants us to do the same to Bacon.


You're reading way to far into Ozzie's response to a question.


Yeah, Ozzie wants us to boo the kid. Just think about what you said.

spawn
06-12-2009, 04:07 PM
You're reading way to far into Ozzie's response to a question.


Yeah, Ozzie wants us to boo the kid. Just think about what you said.
Trust me. He did.

Frankie5Angels
06-12-2009, 04:09 PM
You're reading way to far into Ozzie's response to a question.


Yeah, Ozzie wants us to boo the kid. Just think about what you said.
I'm just reading what OG said. He is questioning why people are cheering Bacon and why they didn't boo him. It's pretty simple really.

spawn
06-12-2009, 04:12 PM
I'm just reading what OG said. He is questioning why people are cheering Bacon and why they didn't boo him. It's pretty simple really.
Where does he question why Beckham wasn't booed? I take it as being sarcastic, But then I don't dislike him as you do.

Frankie5Angels
06-12-2009, 04:13 PM
Where does he question why Beckham wasn't booed?
''I've been in Chicago for 17 years, playing and coaching. Has anybody been 0-for-whatever he is, he hasn't got booed yet"?

Big D
06-12-2009, 04:14 PM
Yeah Ozzie, God forbid White Sox fans get excited about a top prospect getting called up. It's been 20 years since we had a prospect as highly touted as Beckham, and the fans can't get excited? The truth is that other than Beckham, there isn't a hell of a lot to get excited about with this team right now, because they look like they're going nowhere. That's why he's getting the reaction he's getting.

spawn
06-12-2009, 04:14 PM
''I've been in Chicago for 17 years, playing and coaching. Has anybody been 0-for-whatever he is, he hasn't got booed yet"?
See above.

Frankie5Angels
06-12-2009, 04:15 PM
See above.
Same to you.

California Sox
06-12-2009, 04:16 PM
Black Jack is one of my favorite Sox players of all time. The guy is smart and articulate, which is pretty unusual for a modern athlete.

I'd like to address a few points:

The 1990 team was in the race the entire season. They would have kicked the 2009 Sox's butt. So, saying that they could play Black Jack and Robin all year with no consequences is simply mistaken.

While Robin was mildly hyped, he only hit 2 HR in a year at Birmingham and was listed as like the Sox's 4th or 5th best prospect (behind Sosa and Wilson Alvarez, but ahead of Frank who a lot of prospect-watchers hated). Beckham is probably a little more universally praised than Robin and certainly looks better at the plate at the same point in development. (Ventura was up late in 1989 and was helpless. He had an aluminum bat swing and had to work hard on adjustments.)

Let go of McDowell's 1993 playoff performance. He was tipping pitches. Big deal. They would not have gotten there or been in 1st in 1994 when the strike came had McDowell not pitched fantastically. At times he got hit, but Black Jack never gave a half effort. How many Cy Young winners have worn the Sox uni? The man deserves some respect.

spawn
06-12-2009, 04:16 PM
Same to you.
I did.

spawn
06-12-2009, 04:19 PM
Yeah Ozzie, God forbid White Sox fans get excited about a top prospect getting called up. It's been 20 years since we had a prospect as highly touted as Beckham, and the fans can't get excited? The truth is that other than Beckham, there isn't a hell of a lot to get excited about with this team right now, because they look like they're going nowhere. That's why he's getting the reaction he's getting.
You guys take him waaaaaaaaaay too seriously.

Frankie5Angels
06-12-2009, 04:20 PM
Where does he question why Beckham wasn't booed? I take it as being sarcastic, But then I don't dislike him as you do.
You can take it anyway you want. As for disliking him, I never met, so I can't dislike him, I just don't agree with him and his handling of Bacon so far, and obvioulsy Black Jack agrees with me. You have you view and I have mine.

spawn
06-12-2009, 04:22 PM
You can take it anyway you want. As for disliking him, I never met, so I can't dislike him, I just don't agree with him and his handling of Bacon so far, and obvioulsy Black Jack agrees with me. You have you view and I have mine.
His handling of him? He's started just about every game he's been up. What's he suppose to do? Lavish praise on a player that started his career 0-12? OK. :rolleyes:

PhillipsBubba
06-12-2009, 04:24 PM
Good comments by JM.

Can't disagree with a thing he said.

Note to Chris Rongey...this is what I want from a sports commentator...straightforward analysis without the confusing mumbo jumbo!

Of course JM need not worry about being hauled into the principal's office for not painting a rosy picture.

Frankie5Angels
06-12-2009, 04:25 PM
His handling of him? He's started just about every game he's been up. What's he suppose to do? Lavish praise on a player that started his career 0-12? OK. :rolleyes:
It's obvious he didn't want the kid here. He could handle it in the media better. Like I said, you have your view on it and I have mine, and people out there agree with me, and they agree with you. I am just voicing my opinion.

TheVulture
06-12-2009, 04:29 PM
I thought Ozzie made it clear he wasn't happy Beckham was called up while the Sox were playing bad baseball, and that the hype from the media was putting too much pressure or expectations on him. The cheering on routine plays was an indication of the hype, according to Oz. Throwing water on the hype doesn't mean he has something against Beckham.

It's Dankerific
06-12-2009, 04:31 PM
His handling of him? He's started just about every game he's been up. What's he suppose to do? Lavish praise on a player that started his career 0-12? OK. :rolleyes:

How about just not speaking ill about him in public, that would be a start.

spawn
06-12-2009, 04:31 PM
How about just not speaking ill about him in public, that would be a start.
I wasn't aware he was telling everyone who would listen that he sucked. My bad.:rolleyes:

TheVulture
06-12-2009, 04:36 PM
How about just not speaking ill about him in public, that would be a start.

The worst he's said about him is that he had a bad game. Guillen has always said if Beckham is on the roster, he should be in the lineup everyday. Basically, that has been the case.

It's Dankerific
06-12-2009, 04:41 PM
I wasn't aware he was telling everyone who would listen that he sucked. My bad.:rolleyes:

No he just wonders aloud why he isn't booed. :rolleyes:

spawn
06-12-2009, 04:42 PM
No he just wonders aloud why he isn't booed. :rolleyes:
If you couldn't pick up on the sarcasm of that, then I don't know what to tell you. :shrug:

Lip Man 1
06-12-2009, 05:02 PM
From 1990 through 1994 Jack McDowell was the winningest pitcher in the A.L. In fact the only guy in baseball who won more games in that time frame was Greg Maddux.

I'll take his insights and opinions any day of the week. He knows what he's talking about. You can certainly disagree with him but to say his opinion doesn't matter because of the 1993 ALCS is asinine.

If he doesn't win 22 games that year the Sox don't get to the ALCS.

Lip

Irishsox1
06-12-2009, 11:48 PM
From 1990 through 1994 Jack McDowell was the winningest pitcher in the A.L. In fact the only guy in baseball who won more games in that time frame was Greg Maddux.

I'll take his insights and opinions any day of the week. He knows what he's talking about. You can certainly disagree with him but to say his opinion doesn't matter because of the 1993 ALCS is asinine.

If he doesn't win 22 games that year the Sox don't get to the ALCS.

Lip

Who would you rather have pitch a game 7, McDowell or Buehrle?

McDowell was very good in '92 & '93, but when it mattered most, he choked and there is no going back on that. We can play the without Jack there is no playoffs game but when it mattered he couldn't deliver the goods.

Who knows what would have happened in 1994, all I remember was that it was going to be his last year with the Sox because he made it perfectly clear that he was gone at the end of the year.

In his one season in New York he flips off the home fans, although flipping off Yankee fans was great, it offered a glimpse into what type of person Jack McDowell was.

My point is let's look at what McDowell did on the field, look at his personality and then see what he has to say about the White Sox. All I'm saying is I'm taking anything McDowell says with a grain of salt.

Personally, I would much rather hear baseball insights from Robin Ventura than anything Jack McDowell has to say.

TornLabrum
06-13-2009, 12:10 AM
I have a friend who swears that McDowell was tipping his pitches when he "choked."

NLaloosh
06-13-2009, 03:52 AM
Like I was telling my wife, 3 years from now Gordon Beckham will be the best player on the White Sox.

Don't mess him up.

daveeym
06-13-2009, 07:52 AM
Black Jack ripping into Ozzie a bit because of his "dislike" for Gordon?

I guess it's just not all the nut cases on this board like myself who noticed this.I personally believe that Ozzie does take things personally and holds grudges. I find it hard to believe though that he has any dislike for Gordan, but I could be wrong. My take on all his comments is that he's either poorly tweaking the media with them, or his dislike is more aimed at Kenny and the situation than Gordan personally.

Either way it's not good. Ozzie's been acting like a baby this year IMO.

daveeym
06-13-2009, 07:54 AM
I have a friend who swears that McDowell was tipping his pitches when he "choked." Ok, kinda vague. Accidentally tipping pitches or tipping pitches in a blacksox type of way.

cards press box
06-13-2009, 08:40 AM
From 1990 through 1994 Jack McDowell was the winningest pitcher in the A.L. In fact the only guy in baseball who won more games in that time frame was Greg Maddux.

I'll take his insights and opinions any day of the week. He knows what he's talking about. You can certainly disagree with him but to say his opinion doesn't matter because of the 1993 ALCS is asinine.

If he doesn't win 22 games that year the Sox don't get to the ALCS.

Lip

Jack McDowell is insightful, candid and direct. Whenever I have heard him do color commentary on baseball, I have come away with a better understanding of the game.

I read McDowell's comments about the '09 Sox and, frankly, it's hard to argue with his observations. This Sox team has not hit at all and has not played well. What's more, Josh Fields does not appear to be, as McDowell says, a difference maker. Right now, it is difficult to imagine how this Sox team can compete for a pennant. And that, I believe, is McDowell's point. Some of the bloggers on the Chicago Now website note that the A.L. Central is up for grabs. That is probably true but, seriously, does it matter? If the Sox continue to hit and field like they have so far, they wouldn't beat anyone in the playoffs.

I agree with McDowell. The Sox have to look to the future and give consistent playing time to the guys with the highest ceiling. That means playing Gordon Beckham every day and putting Aaron Poreda in the starting rotation. If the Sox don't intend to bring certain players back in '10 then they should explore trade options before the end of July.

I don't believe that the posters on this website or Sox fans in general would object to the Sox playing for next year. The 2005 championship brought a lot of benefits and one of them is this: with that World Series still fresh in everyone's memory, it is a lot more palatable for Sox fans to accept a strategy to play for the next five years as opposed to this year. To that end, the Sox' future looks bright. Beyond Beckham and Poreda, the Sox' AA team in Birmingham has been great this year. Going into tonight's game, the Barons are 40-20. And the Barons still have Jordan Danks, Brandon Allen, Dayan Viciedo and other players who may end up in Chicago.

I'm with Black Jack on this one. The Sox should play for the future, give their top prospects consistent playing time and live with their growing pains.

Lip Man 1
06-13-2009, 11:50 AM
Irish:

You may be interested in this:

October 9, 1993 - The ‘hope’ that Sox fans were given in Game #3 of the A.L.C.S. turns into a roaring fire as the Sox win again in Game #4 7 - 4 to tie things up at two games each with Toronto. Tim Belcher who was acquired in a July trade gets the win in relief of Jason Bere. Unfortunately this is the last great moment for the "good guys who wear black" as Toronto closes out the series winning Game #5 in Toronto and Game #6 at Comiskey Park. A few years later Toronto manager Cito Gaston revealed that the Jays knew exactly what pitches were coming from both Sox aces Jack McDowell and Alex Fernandez something the Sox coaching staff never picked up on. In fact Toronto beat those pitchers four times while losing all the other games.

And from my interview with Jack for WSI:

ML: Let’s talk about the 1993 ALCS. I read an interview a few years ago where then Jays manager Cito Gaston claimed that you and Alex Fernandez were tipping your pitches and that’s why the Jays were able to win. Do you think that’s true?

JM: "The Jays had a real good team that season. They were a veteran bunch of guys. I went 22 - 10 in the regular season and they beat me three times, and I’m not talking about losing to them 2 - 1. They just beat me up. Sometimes it happens that a team has your number no matter what you do. Could I have been tipping something? Maybe... but the Jays were a bunch known for being able to steal and relay signs from the bases to their hitters too."

Sometimes a team has your number...it happens.

Lip

TornLabrum
06-13-2009, 03:35 PM
Ok, kinda vague. Accidentally tipping pitches or tipping pitches in a blacksox type of way.

Accidentally. She thought she saw him make certain moves with certain pitches that was tipping the other team off.

kitekrazy
06-13-2009, 09:51 PM
I thought Ozzie made it clear he wasn't happy Beckham was called up while the Sox were playing bad baseball, and that the hype from the media was putting too much pressure or expectations on him. The cheering on routine plays was an indication of the hype, according to Oz. Throwing water on the hype doesn't mean he has something against Beckham.

That makes sense to me.

Brian26
06-13-2009, 10:13 PM
Who would you rather have pitch a game 7, McDowell or Buehrle?

McDowell was very good in '92 & '93, but when it mattered most, he choked and there is no going back on that. We can play the without Jack there is no playoffs game but when it mattered he couldn't deliver the goods.

Who knows what would have happened in 1994, all I remember was that it was going to be his last year with the Sox because he made it perfectly clear that he was gone at the end of the year.

In his one season in New York he flips off the home fans, although flipping off Yankee fans was great, it offered a glimpse into what type of person Jack McDowell was.

My point is let's look at what McDowell did on the field, look at his personality and then see what he has to say about the White Sox. All I'm saying is I'm taking anything McDowell says with a grain of salt.

Personally, I would much rather hear baseball insights from Robin Ventura than anything Jack McDowell has to say.

You're all over the map with this. Somehow your vitriol for McDowell equates, in your mind, to him not being a competent commentator on the game of baseball, which is a ridiculous argument on many different levels. I could point out a number of excellent commentators who were less talented or less fan-friendly than McDowell, and I could serve examples of great players who are really weak commentators (case in point, Tony Gwynn doing the Padres game right now on MLB network).

I don't hold any grudges against McDowell for the '93 Toronto series. If anyone sticks out as a failure during that post-season, it was the three-headed monster of Pasqua, Bell and Bo.

My best memory of McDowell was a game he pitched in Minnesota down the stretch in '93 (mid September, Friday night I think). He absolutely shut them down, went the distance, and in doing so pulled the Sox within a few games of clinching. THAT McDowell was unbeatable and would have given Buehrle a run for his money. Of course, Buehrle's been blessed to be on some more talented teams through the middle part of this decade than Black Jack had.

Tragg
06-13-2009, 10:35 PM
My best memory of McDowell was a game he pitched in Minnesota down the stretch in '93 (mid September, Friday night I think). He absolutely shut them down, went the distance, and in doing so pulled the Sox within a few games of clinching. THAT McDowell was unbeatable and would have given Buehrle a run for his money. Of course, Buehrle's been blessed to be on some more talented teams through the middle part of this decade than Black Jack had.
I remember that game (I think it was the same game). It was on WGN. At one point, someone led off an inning with a triple, and I told myself that Jack was pitching so well that he'd keep him from scoring. And he did

thedudeabides
06-13-2009, 11:09 PM
Irish:

You may be interested in this:

October 9, 1993 - The ‘hope’ that Sox fans were given in Game #3 of the A.L.C.S. turns into a roaring fire as the Sox win again in Game #4 7 - 4 to tie things up at two games each with Toronto. Tim Belcher who was acquired in a July trade gets the win in relief of Jason Bere. Unfortunately this is the last great moment for the "good guys who wear black" as Toronto closes out the series winning Game #5 in Toronto and Game #6 at Comiskey Park. A few years later Toronto manager Cito Gaston revealed that the Jays knew exactly what pitches were coming from both Sox aces Jack McDowell and Alex Fernandez something the Sox coaching staff never picked up on. In fact Toronto beat those pitchers four times while losing all the other games.

And from my interview with Jack for WSI:

ML: Let’s talk about the 1993 ALCS. I read an interview a few years ago where then Jays manager Cito Gaston claimed that you and Alex Fernandez were tipping your pitches and that’s why the Jays were able to win. Do you think that’s true?

JM: "The Jays had a real good team that season. They were a veteran bunch of guys. I went 22 - 10 in the regular season and they beat me three times, and I’m not talking about losing to them 2 - 1. They just beat me up. Sometimes it happens that a team has your number no matter what you do. Could I have been tipping something? Maybe... but the Jays were a bunch known for being able to steal and relay signs from the bases to their hitters too."

Sometimes a team has your number...it happens.

Lip




Great info Lip. If someone doesn't like BlackJack, that's fine. To say he has lost his credibility because of a single performance in a playoff game, is ridiculous. I may not always agree with everything he says, but I'm glad to see his contributions and his involvement with the Sox. He's simply giving an honest opinion, one in which I happen to respect. He was a great competitor.

hawkjt
06-14-2009, 09:33 AM
After yesterdays game,Ozzie gave Beckham a lukewarm compliment..indicating he liked that he was not striking out or missing badly at the plate. Too impatient,as Beckham admitted, but decent at bats...I agree with Ozzie here..even tho he has not gotten a lot of hits, he seems to always make contact and that beats the Fields all or nothing at bats...

Lip Man 1
06-14-2009, 12:13 PM
Phil Arvia in the Daily Southtown is the latest to say that Ozzie apparently has something against Beckham.

It's under the heading 'misplaced anger' in his column

http://www.southtownstar.com/sports/arvia/1621664,061409sptsundayrules.article

Lip

It's Dankerific
06-14-2009, 12:17 PM
Phil Arvia in the Daily Southtown is the latest to say that Ozzie apparently has something against Beckham.

It's under the heading 'misplaced anger' in his column

http://www.southtownstar.com/sports/arvia/1621664,061409sptsundayrules.article

Lip

Everyone must be out to get Ozzie.

2005!?!?!!!

DirtySox
06-14-2009, 12:19 PM
http://blogs.chicagosports.chicagotribune.com/sports_hardball/2009/06/ozzie-guillen-sounds-off-on-wrigley-field-again-jack-mcdowell-contreras-to-start-thursday.html

Ozzie responds to Blackjack

palehozenychicty
06-14-2009, 12:29 PM
http://blogs.chicagosports.chicagotribune.com/sports_hardball/2009/06/ozzie-guillen-sounds-off-on-wrigley-field-again-jack-mcdowell-contreras-to-start-thursday.html

Ozzie responds to Blackjack

In this case, Ozzie is wrong by saying that McDowell knows nothing about the game. His explanation of Beckham's treatment makes sense, and that was people felt anyway, that he was trying to diffuse the media hype. But I find Black Jack a credible source on MLB. I love Ozzie, but he didn't invent the game.

It's Dankerific
06-14-2009, 12:33 PM
In this case, Ozzie is wrong by saying that McDowell knows nothing about the game. His explanation of Beckham's treatment makes sense, and that was people felt anyway, that he was trying to diffuse the media hype. But I find Black Jack a credible source on MLB. I love Ozzie, but he didn't invent the game.

I have a problem with anyone who, when disputed on a single issue, feels the appropriate explanation is that the other person doesn't know **** about baseball.

Jeez, don't agree with ozzie 100%, you don't know ****!

thedudeabides
06-14-2009, 12:42 PM
http://blogs.chicagosports.chicagotribune.com/sports_hardball/2009/06/ozzie-guillen-sounds-off-on-wrigley-field-again-jack-mcdowell-contreras-to-start-thursday.html

Ozzie responds to Blackjack

Well, you knew Ozzie was just trying to temper expectations for Beckham, although some think he just hates him. I have to say the article by Phil Arvia was pretty poor and misleading. All I have to say about the impending Ozzie and Blackjack feud...:popcorn:

You know neither is going to back down, but my guess is after a couple of responses, they will make nice.

One thing is for sure, this organization is never boring.

It's Dankerific
06-14-2009, 01:30 PM
Hawk is ripping into Black Jack now.

thedudeabides
06-14-2009, 01:33 PM
Hawk, and Stone is joining in as well, are ripping on Blackjack in the broadcast, right now.

To summarize, they are just saying he is removed from the situation, and doesn't know what he's talking about. They just said they don't expect him in the booth this year when Stone takes off.

It's Dankerific
06-14-2009, 01:41 PM
Team is really good at circling the wagons. I wish they were really good at getting somewhere.

BadBobbyJenks
06-14-2009, 02:32 PM
Where is the idea coming from that Beckham has been only getting sporadic at bats? I keep seeing people mention how he needs consistent playing time as if he's not getting that right now. Since being recalled, he's has played complete games (all at the same position) on:

June 4
June 5
June 7
June 8
June 9
June 10
June 11

So he sat one game of a double header and one game a few days after he got called up (after admitting that he hadn't hardly gotten any sleep at all since the recall). Am I missing something about him not getting consistent playing time?

4 pages and no one could respond to this post... Sporadic at bats? Ozzie hates Beckham? That is a negative.

Tragg
06-14-2009, 02:59 PM
But there is a definite contrast between Guillen's sniping about young players and his seemingly endless apologetics for non-performing veterans with limited talent.

soltrain21
06-14-2009, 03:28 PM
Ozzie completely baffles me sometimes. You want production? Well then, why are you marching the ****show known as Dewayne Wise out there still? You have no beef telling young players like Poreda and Beckham they have to perform or they are gone.

balke
06-14-2009, 03:34 PM
Finally got to see Beckham play. He already made one play defensively that I don't have faith in Fields making at 3B. Like Blackjack said, you aren't missing any hitting by letting him play. I like what I see. I think he will hit. I think if the Sox find a future 1Bman (Fields, you might still have a chance) things are looking good for the Sox from a youth standpoint.

DirtySox
06-14-2009, 03:51 PM
I think if the Sox find a future 1Bman (Fields, you might still have a chance) things are looking good for the Sox from a youth standpoint.

Brandon Allen says hello.

JB98
06-14-2009, 05:18 PM
Ozzie completely baffles me sometimes. You want production? Well then, why are you marching the ****show known as Dewayne Wise out there still? You have no beef telling young players like Poreda and Beckham they have to perform or they are gone.

This is a silly post. Wise has only started 13 of the Sox 64 games this year. He was in there today because Dye is nursing a calf injury. Anderson is now getting the overwhelming majority of the playing time in CF, even against righties, because he has been playing better than Wise.

Poreda and Beckham do have to perform. This isn't Little League.

And I disagreed with McDowell's blog, too, although I think Ozzie should just ignore that criticism -- because it is completely unfounded.

UChicagoHP
06-14-2009, 05:51 PM
Brandon Allen says hello.
http://www.thebaseballcube.com/Players/A/Brandon-Allen.shtml

It looks like he is getting better each year, but his numbers don't scream MLB talent. Time will tell!

Shoeless
06-14-2009, 06:07 PM
This is a silly post. Wise has only started 13 of the Sox 64 games this year. He was in there today because Dye is nursing a calf injury. Anderson is now getting the overwhelming majority of the playing time in CF, even against righties, because he has been playing better than Wise.

Poreda and Beckham do have to perform. This isn't Little League.

And I disagreed with McDowell's blog, too, although I think Ozzie should just ignore that criticism -- because it is completely unfounded.

While I don't disagree Beckham has to perform at this level, the White Sox probably brought him up a little too early for it to be a "hit or you're done" situation.

DirtySox
06-14-2009, 06:17 PM
http://www.thebaseballcube.com/Players/A/Brandon-Allen.shtml

It looks like he is getting better each year, but his numbers don't scream MLB talent. Time will tell!

He isn't a Gordon Beckham talent, but he is probably the systems number 2 prospect behind Tyler Flowers. (ignoring Beckham and Poreda who are now in the majors) The organization has called him their "sleeping giant."

He's a big man with surprising speed (can leg out triples legitimately), and is solid defensively. There is no doubting his power either. His K/BB ratio has been trending the right direction as well. I'm excited to see how his power numbers will translate in AAA when he leaves pitcher friendly Regions Park.

Lip Man 1
06-14-2009, 09:58 PM
Jack has responded to Ozzie:

http://www.chicagonow.com/blogs/black-jack-white-sox/2009/06/white-sox-blogger-mcdowell-already-in-ozzies-doghouse.html

Love the part where he says Ozzie has never read or seen one of Jack's posts in his life. That was funny!

Lip

soltrain21
06-14-2009, 10:00 PM
This is a silly post. Wise has only started 13 of the Sox 64 games this year. He was in there today because Dye is nursing a calf injury. Anderson is now getting the overwhelming majority of the playing time in CF, even against righties, because he has been playing better than Wise.

Poreda and Beckham do have to perform. This isn't Little League.

And I disagreed with McDowell's blog, too, although I think Ozzie should just ignore that criticism -- because it is completely unfounded.

No, it's not silly. If he wants "performance" or you are out of here, then why is Wise still on the team? There are plenty of guys in the minors who could hit .130.

BadBobbyJenks
06-14-2009, 11:10 PM
Jack has responded to Ozzie:

http://www.chicagonow.com/blogs/black-jack-white-sox/2009/06/white-sox-blogger-mcdowell-already-in-ozzies-doghouse.html

Love the part where he says Ozzie has never read or seen one of Jack's posts in his life. That was funny!

Lip

Black Jack sure loves exclamation points!

JB98
06-15-2009, 01:28 AM
No, it's not silly. If he wants "performance" or you are out of here, then why is Wise still on the team? There are plenty of guys in the minors who could hit .130.

Actually, no, all the outfielders at Charlotte are career minor-leaguers just like Wise. The Sox organization has minimal outfield talent.

When Quentin comes back, Wise will be gone. Wise is still here because they don't have anyone in the minors who is better. No teal. If you don't like that, blame KW, not Ozzie.

This notion that Ozzie has some sort of man-crush on Wise is just silly. The decision to put Wise in the leadoff spot to start the year was a bad one. But by the third game of the season, a change was made.

twinsuck
06-15-2009, 10:30 PM
It's funny how he replies to everyone who makes a comment.

Konerko05
06-16-2009, 05:26 AM
Black Jack sure loves exclamation points!

I noticed the same thing!