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View Full Version : Time for a White Flag Trade?


PhillipsBubba
06-08-2009, 01:12 AM
I wasn't happy about the last one, but KW would be more than justified if he engineered one now:?:

Remember???

The Chicago White Sox received:

Keith Foulke (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Keith_Foulke), right-handed pitcher (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pitcher)
Bob Howry (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bob_Howry), right-handed pitcher
Lorenzo Barcelo (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lorenzo_Barcelo), right-handed pitcher
Ken Vining (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ken_Vining), left-handed pitcher
Mike Caruso (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mike_Caruso), shortstop (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shortstop)
Brian Manning (http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Brian_Manning_(baseball_player)&action=edit&redlink=1)
The San Francisco Giants received:

Wilson Alvarez (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wilson_Alvarez), left-handed pitcher
Danny Darwin (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Danny_Darwin), right-handed pitcher
Roberto Hernández (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Roberto_Hern%C3%A1ndez_(baseball_player)), right-handed pitcher

JB98
06-08-2009, 01:39 AM
Still too early for this type of talk. KW should still be in buy mode at this time.

I'm not happy with the team, but this isn't the time to surrender.

doublem23
06-08-2009, 01:51 AM
Unless someone floors KW with an offer, I don't see the point in a White Flag-esque trade; if we get rid of some of the veterans around here, who plays in their place? We don't have any real prospects ready for everyday life in the MLB, we may as well just ride it out with these guys, at least. It's not like anyone is running away with the division.

Whitesoxfan23
06-08-2009, 01:53 AM
This 5 game series with the Tigers is very crucial. Could determine our season.

JB98
06-08-2009, 01:56 AM
Unless someone floors KW with an offer, I don't see the point in a White Flag-esque trade; if we get rid of some of the veterans around here, who plays in their place? We don't have any real prospects ready for everyday life in the MLB, we may as well just ride it out with these guys, at least. It's not like anyone is running away with the division.

Yeah, KW would have to be getting MLB-ready prospects in return if he were going to make a White Flag-like trade. But who the hell is going to give up MLB-ready prospects for a half-season of Jermaine Dye or Jim Thome?

I'd still like to see them hold on to Dye and make him the DH next year.

Nellie_Fox
06-08-2009, 02:08 AM
No.

michned
06-08-2009, 02:28 AM
No.

Agreed, if they go young, they need to do it full on. Konerko, Thome, and JD all should be moved.

delben91
06-08-2009, 07:40 AM
Remember???


Actually, no, I'd totally forgotten about that trade. Thanks for reminding me!

DumpJerry
06-08-2009, 07:54 AM
It was a great trade.





Caruso hit a home run.

eastchicagosoxfan
06-08-2009, 07:57 AM
I agree with Nellie....No. The team really misses Quentin.

DrCrawdad
06-08-2009, 08:15 AM
I wasn't happy about the last one, but KW would be more than justified if he engineered one now:?:

Remember???

The Chicago White Sox received:

Keith Foulke (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Keith_Foulke), right-handed pitcher (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pitcher)
Bob Howry (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bob_Howry), right-handed pitcher
Lorenzo Barcelo (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lorenzo_Barcelo), right-handed pitcher
Ken Vining (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ken_Vining), left-handed pitcher
Mike Caruso (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mike_Caruso), shortstop (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shortstop)
Brian Manning (http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Brian_Manning_%28baseball_player%2 9&action=edit&redlink=1)

The San Francisco Giants received:

Wilson Alvarez (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wilson_Alvarez), left-handed pitcher
Danny Darwin (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Danny_Darwin), right-handed pitcher
Roberto Hernández (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Roberto_Hern%C3%A1ndez_%28baseball_player%29), right-handed pitcher



Only Foulke and Howry worked out for the Sox. I hope the Sox would get more serviceable players this time around, if they're going to "White Flag" it.

jabrch
06-08-2009, 08:37 AM
Way to early for any serious (fans) discussion of this. 4.5 out in mid June. That said, KW is probably ALWAYS talking to GMs about nearly every player.

Now if someone comes in and offers us the greatest haul in the history of hauls, that's a different story...

Domeshot17
06-08-2009, 08:50 AM
This 5 game series with the Tigers is very crucial. Could determine our season.

Smartest Post in this thread. If you win 4 or 5, you are right back in it. If you loe 4 or 5, the season is done. Losing 4 puts us 7.5 out, losing 5 9.5, winning 4 0.5 out and winning 5 in First (or ahead of detroit).

Sargeant79
06-08-2009, 09:43 AM
Only Foulke and Howry worked out for the Sox. I hope the Sox would get more serviceable players this time around, if they're going to "White Flag" it.

This may be an incident of me 'misremembering'...

But when this trade went down, weren't Barcelo and Caruso supposed to be the main, highly-regarded prospects we were getting in the deal?

Britt Burns
06-08-2009, 09:54 AM
This may be an incident of me 'misremembering'...

But when this trade went down, weren't Barcelo and Caruso supposed to be the main, highly-regarded prospects we were getting in the deal?

Yes, especially Caruso.

Law11
06-08-2009, 10:11 AM
Even if we go that route its not like we have a whole lot to trade with unless you trade prospects which wouldnt make much sense.

voodoochile
06-08-2009, 10:11 AM
Way to early for any serious (fans) discussion of this. 4.5 out in mid June. That said, KW is probably ALWAYS talking to GMs about nearly every player.

Now if someone comes in and offers us the greatest haul in the history of hauls, that's a different story...

Exactly, but my question is for Phillips Bubba...

Who do you think the Sox should trade and what should they be attempting to acquire?

beasly213
06-08-2009, 10:17 AM
I wrote this on the gameday thread.

I heard people talking about what a big series this Tigers one is but is it really? Let's look at the best case scenario Sox sweep all 4 and are back to .500 and potentially within a half game of first. But then what?

We've seen this team do that before, go on a nice run only to go on an even worse run like the one they are in now. If the Sox are hanging around when the trade deadline approaches like say within 3-4 games I say we have another white flag trade.

Get what you can for some of these guys and try to rebuild, this team isn't built for a long haul or a post season run, granted having TCQ back in the lineup should help a lot but he isn't going to rise this team up from the dead. I'm really ticked off at the hitting today but I'm not suprised by it either and it doesn't seem like Ozzie is either, that's a big problem. This team is starting to look real bad real fast. I'll still be watching all year to see the progression of guys like Beckham and Getz but I have no hope for this team to go on any sort of run. And that's sad.

russ99
06-08-2009, 10:34 AM
Only Foulke and Howry worked out for the Sox. I hope the Sox would get more serviceable players this time around, if they're going to "White Flag" it.

No, that's more usual than you think. Many times prospects sent in trades don't work out. To expect every prospect returned in a deal to become a MLB regular is asking too much.

As for our current situation:

Danks, Floyd, Ramirez, Quentin and A.J. need to stay, end of story.

Thome - is anyone going to trade anything decent for a fading 38 year old slugger making $13M?

Konerko - he'd have to waive his NTC, so we'd get less in a deal for him to a place he wants to go. Also, that opens the can of worms as to who would play 1B. Is Brandon Allen even close to ready? I certainly don't want Fields subpar fielding and bad bat in a power position.

Dye - while he'd being back the most in a deal, IMO he's the guy out of the "big three" the Sox should to hold onto. He's proven that he's a reliable hitting slugger and would slot nicely into the DH role next season, at a potentially lower salary than Thome is getting now.

So in reality, the only guys we have to "sell" at this point are Jenks, Dotel and Thornton, and I think it would be foolish to part with more than 1 or 2 of them.

I'm much more interested as to what Kenny can get to shore up the three trouble spots on the team, 3B (maybe Beckham can solidify that), OF and SP.

Adding could salvage the season, while selling could put us in a talent vacuum that could take years to recover from. Considering this year's failures by the kids, do we really have any hope of a Sox hitting prospect turning into anything decent?

Huisj
06-08-2009, 10:39 AM
Yes, especially Caruso.

When Caruso decided to not work hard and came in to the '99 season worse than he was the year before, it convinced the Sox to can him and go after a new SS, so in a way, Caruso helped the Sox get Valentin and Eldred, two big keys to the 2000 division champs team. The subtraction of Navarro and John Snyder in that trade was icing on the cake.

So in some ways, Caruso was a huge part of the Sox' success from the white flag trade. If he wouldn't have sucked so much in '99, the Sox might not win the division the next year. And who knows what chain of events that could have set off in the long run.

ChiSoxFan81
06-08-2009, 10:50 AM
It's NEVER time for a white flag trade. The reason it was so hard to swallow was because we were only 3.5 games back going towards August. We were still in contention. If we're still under .500 come the end of July, it's not really a white flag trade, just building for next year and beyond, which almost every team has to do every so often, especially ones built around aging veterans. The window with our core guys is about shutting, but if we are still in contention in this weak division, there is no way management throws it in the tank. It would be a slap in the face to the fans, and the guys like Buehrle, Thome, etc.

jabrch
06-08-2009, 10:54 AM
Exactly, but my question is for Phillips Bubba...

Who do you think the Sox should trade and what should they be attempting to acquire?


To me, this is a simple answer.

Don't Trade

Anyone with under 5 years of service time except Jenks
Buehrle
Anyone else would be available, with the most likely guys to trade being Jenks and Dye - maybe PK if someone wants to pay for him based on what he is doing this year

Target

MLB ready talented CF
MLB ready (or near ready) SP
A top tier type talent at any position - this team isn't so good that we should turn down a guy like say Laporta just because we'd have nowhere to put him. You find a place...

hi im skot
06-08-2009, 11:04 AM
To me, this is a simple answer.

Don't Trade

Anyone with under 5 years of service time except Jenks




I've heard other folks bring up Bobby's name in trades, and I struggle to understand why you let him go. Jenks is one of the top closers in baseball, has stayed relatively healthy, and appears to have learned how to pitch, rather than just throw smoke.

Top tier closers are tough to come by, and Jenks is certainly among the elite.

Just my humble opinion.

Britt Burns
06-08-2009, 11:10 AM
When Caruso decided to not work hard and came in to the '99 season worse than he was the year before, it convinced the Sox to can him and go after a new SS, so in a way, Caruso helped the Sox get Valentin and Eldred, two big keys to the 2000 division champs team. The subtraction of Navarro and John Snyder in that trade was icing on the cake.

So in some ways, Caruso was a huge part of the Sox' success from the white flag trade. If he wouldn't have sucked so much in '99, the Sox might not win the division the next year. And who knows what chain of events that could have set off in the long run.

I completely agree. The original question I was answering though was who were considered the main prospects acquired in the White Flag trade, and Caruso was hyped as the best of the lot, a shade or two above Barcelo and Foulke.

thomas35forever
06-08-2009, 11:15 AM
It's June 8 and the Sox are only 4 1/2 games back. Too early to be talking about this. I don't know if I'd even be in favor of one on July 31.

munchman33
06-08-2009, 11:18 AM
The only way a White Flag trade is amenable is if we lose 4 or 5 games against the Tigers this week. Yes, I realize that only puts us 8 - 10 games back, and there's a lot of season left. But there's a difference between being that far back and looking good and being that far back and playing the way we have this season. We look like a bottom of the division team. We have a lot of holes. If we fall back that far, it's safe to say it's time to move some pieces around.

Huisj
06-08-2009, 11:19 AM
I completely agree. The original question I was answering though was who were considered the main prospects acquired in the White Flag trade, and Caruso was hyped as the best of the lot, a shade or two above Barcelo and Foulke.

Yeah I know, I just thought I'd throw in something funny about how you never know the true value of a trade until a while after it has happened. In that case, the trade had a long lasting impact beyond just what the players themselves produced.

TDog
06-08-2009, 11:20 AM
The fact that people still call it the White Flag Trade, and put it in capital letters, is a reason for the White Sox not to do such a thing.

The Sox were below .500 when they traded Alvarez, Darwin and Hernandez to the Giants. The players were going to leave after the season. And the trade still embittered people.

From that day, those were dark times in the 1990s, when there was no hope, although the Sox actually had a better winning percentage before the trade than after. Not that it mattered. There was no hope. The 2000 season was about the resurgence of Thomas, the development of a couple of young sluggers, and pitching that couldn't make it in one piece to the postseason.

This year, dumping the veterans, who are the ones winning the games that the Sox manage to win, would usher in a dark time. You're not going to get Buster Posey from the Giants. You're not going to get Matt Cain either.

The younger players the Sox worked in last year -- Ramirez and Quentin -- were a big reason for their success. The younger players the Sox have worked in this year -- Getz and Fields -- are a big reason for their lack of success. You don't build a team around Getz and Fields. You don't trade Konerko so Betemit can play first on a regular basis. You don't do it so Fields can learn a new position and become a disappointment at a new position.

This team needs consistent starting pitching, which they aren't getting. They're not going to get it by trading their veterans. They would just lose even more than they currently do.

And it could be even worse next year, and the year after that.

downstairs
06-08-2009, 11:23 AM
Unless we lose 20 straight, we'll always be in contention in our awful division. By Thursday night we could be 0.5 games out of first.

We could be 4 games down from .500 in September and still be in it.

Its not as much fun as dominating a season in a good division... but lets face it, the winner of the AL Central is going to be the team that "wanted to lose it less."

kaufsox
06-08-2009, 11:48 AM
I'm still holding out for back to back post season appearances and these five games are as big as they get in June. Hell, even if they take three of five I think it's a little too early to talk about a white flag trade. I must say though, what makes trading look like a good option is that I don't see this team competing with the Yankees or Red Sox and if they do make the post season it would be as the weakest team in the tourney. So, it would be nice but is it a pyrrhic victory?

PhillipsBubba
06-08-2009, 11:59 AM
Exactly, but my question is for Phillips Bubba...

Who do you think the Sox should trade and what should they be attempting to acquire?

Women and small children think emotionally...KW doesn't have that luxury.

Does anyone on this board truly believe this is World Series team????

Based on what I have seen, it will take major improvements just to make the playoffs.

Players like Thome, Konerko, Dye, Colon, Contreras, AJ and Scotty Pods are the past. They performed wonderfully but it's time to see more of Beckham, Getz, Flowers, Jordan Danks, Poreda and Viciedo plus whomever comes in a trade.

I'll leave the particulars to KW...I have confidence in him.:smile:

palehozenychicty
06-08-2009, 12:00 PM
It's too early to do this. Q needs to get healthy, but I don't think this team is good enough with him playing everyday. As people said, our guys don't have a lot of value right now. I'd just let them all play, then evaluate in the offseason.

Britt Burns
06-08-2009, 12:00 PM
Yeah I know, I just thought I'd throw in something funny about how you never know the true value of a trade until a while after it has happened. In that case, the trade had a long lasting impact beyond just what the players themselves produced.

Gotcha. To go even further, John Snyder was acquired with Bill Simas-who was solid if not spectacular-and a couple other prospects for Jim Abbott in another deadline deal when '95 turned into such a flop!

Woofer
06-08-2009, 12:11 PM
I try to be as reasonable about our chances to make the playoffs as anyone. So far, it really has been a terrible season, and yet we still have a chance to make a run. This is the most crucial series of the year, so far. The Sox have to win at least 3 out of 5, which will be tough with a doubleheader today, and Contreras coming back. Hopefully he looks good, and so does Richard. It's rare to win both games of a doubleheader.

I never want to see another White Flag trade, ever. Trading Dye, Thome and Konerko would probably yield us less than the original WFT.

voodoochile
06-08-2009, 12:21 PM
Women and small children think emotionally...KW doesn't have that luxury.

Does anyone on this board truly believe this is World Series team????

Based on what I have seen, it will take major improvements just to make the playoffs.

Players like Thome, Konerko, Dye, Colon, Contreras, AJ and Scotty Pods are the past. They performed wonderfully but it's time to see more of Beckham, Getz, Flowers, Jordan Danks, Poreda and Viciedo plus whomever comes in a trade.

I'll leave the particulars to KW...I have confidence in him.:smile:

See this strikes me as an emotional response because near as I can tell, Jordan Danks, Flowers, Poreda, Viciedo all are at least a year away from being ready for the show. Calling them up would simply wreck their development. Getz strikes me as a utility guy at best. I just don't see him being a long term solution.

Also, if you trade of Konerko and Dye, you need to acquire players who can hit for power and fill their positions if not this year than next. Thome, Colon and Contreras have little if any trade value, so dumping them would strictly be a salary move and unless Contreras pitches well on his return, I doubt anyone eats his salary or gives us much in trade because he's old, has struggled, is coming off a major injury and is a FA next year as are Thome and Colon.

AJ you might or might not get much for and honestly, again you would need to find a catcher who handles the pitchers as well acts as team leader and can generate some offense. Those guys don't grow on trees and Flowers is probably due in 2011 earliest if he stays at the catcher position where offense is nice, but not the primary thing you are looking for.

In short, I don't think you're going to get much for the players you listed. Now if you are willing to trade Buehrle, Jenks, Danks or Floyd, then you can get some solid return, but that's a really bad idea, IMO.

As to whether this team is a WS team or not, I don't know. Doesn't look like it so far, but they're not hitting well at home which I expect to change, they're playing without their best all around hitter and have seen two young pitchers struggle more than expected.

A lot can happen between now and 7/31, but if Danks turns it around (not impossible), Floyd continues his resurgence, and one ofRichard, Contreras or Colon manages to act like a legitimate #4, then yeah, this team could be right in the thick of things.

I'm hoping Beckham actually finds a comfort zone soon or gets sent back down to continue working. Then all we need is either Gets or Fields to be moderately effective and the Sox have a solid 1-8 with a decent #9, 4 solid starting pitcers and a top notch bullpen.

You telling me that team cannot compete in the playoffs, I think that's nuts.

I also think calling for a WFT in June before a huge series with an average/bad first place opponent who the Sox only trail by 4.5 games is equally nuts...

Jpgr91
06-08-2009, 12:22 PM
White Flag Trade? Seriously? The fundamental difference between the 2008 Sox and the 1997 Sox is that the 1997 Sox were a good team that could have been made into a viable conteder by trading for a few pieces. It is unrealistic that the 2008 Sox could aquire enough pieces via trade to make them a viable contender. Any unloading of tradeable parts that the Sox do this year is not a "White Flag" trade.

delben91
06-08-2009, 12:41 PM
White Flag Trade? Seriously? The fundamental difference between the 2008 Sox and the 1997 Sox is that the 1997 Sox were a good team that could have been made into a viable conteder by trading for a few pieces. It is unrealistic that the 2008 Sox could aquire enough pieces via trade to make them a viable contender. Any unloading of tradeable parts that the Sox do this year is not a "White Flag" trade.

And here I thought the 2008 Sox won the AL Central...

Lip Man 1
06-08-2009, 12:47 PM
A detailed look at the White Flag Trade and the resulting fallout from it:

http://www.whitesoxinteractive.com/rwas/index.php?category=2&id=1528

Remember this story was originally published in 2002 at WSI.

Lip

DirtySox
06-08-2009, 12:47 PM
I'm hoping Beckham actually finds a comfort zone soon or gets sent back down to continue working.

Gordon isn't going to be sent back down anytime soon unless he looks completely and utterly overmatched. They didn't start his clock to just get him a taste. He will be playing to help this team contend, or if the team continues to fall he will get plenty of no pressure PA's. He will be getting major league experience one way or another. Either way he is likely up for good.

TomBradley72
06-08-2009, 12:50 PM
Hold onto your players, wait for a contender to have an injury where they need to overpay for a replacement.

Whenever we do return to the post season, I doubt Dye, Thome, Konerko or AJ will be around...so if you can move them to get some more prospects I'd do it. It's clearly time to let go of this group of players and move on/rebuild. If anyone wants one of our crappy young players like Fields, Anderson or Getz then I'd include them as available. Other than Ramirez and Quentin..not a whole lot to build around.

I'd hope we can hang on to Buehrle/Floyd/Danks/Richard/Thornton...but the rest of the staff should be made available.

Huisj
06-08-2009, 01:04 PM
Gordon isn't going to be sent back down anytime soon unless he looks completely and utterly overmatched. They didn't start his clock to just get him a taste. He will be playing to help this team contend, or if the team continues to fall he will get plenty of no pressure PA's. He will be getting major league experience one way or another. Either way he is likely up for good.

The good thing about Beckham is that, even though he's without a hit, he has been making decent contact. He hasn't looked overmatched by swinging a missing. He just has seemed a little bit too eager, so he's been swinging at the first pitch a lot.

jabrch
06-08-2009, 01:10 PM
Gordon isn't going to be sent back down anytime soon unless he looks completely and utterly overmatched. They didn't start his clock to just get him a taste. He will be playing to help this team contend, or if the team continues to fall he will get plenty of no pressure PA's. He will be getting major league experience one way or another. Either way he is likely up for good.

I don't understand that logic. Why not send him down if he isn't productive here? It's not like the "clock" keeps running - send him down and he doesn't accrue sevice time to get to being a Super Two or to adding a year.

PhillipsBubba
06-08-2009, 01:14 PM
You telling me that team cannot compete in the playoffs, I think that's nuts.

I also think calling for a WFT in June before a huge series with an average/bad first place opponent who the Sox only trail by 4.5 games is equally nuts...

Allrighty then...I guess we'll just sit back and see what happens...I enjoyed reading your thoughts!:smile:

pilotsox
06-08-2009, 01:25 PM
First, I'm going to come out fully against trading Jenks. Along with Quentin, Danks, Floyd and a few others, that guy is a keeper. I don't know why his name keeps coming up in trade discussions.

And I'm with kaufsox. I always thought that once the White Sox won a World Series, I'd drift away from them because I'd feel the mission is complete and there's nothing left to do. And that is most certainly not the case. There will always be something for this team to do, and at the moment, it's to go to the playoffs two years in a row. I actually had a dream about it last night. Seriously. So please, for the love of God, win the division.

Sargeant79
06-08-2009, 01:26 PM
Top tier closers are tough to come by, and Jenks is certainly among the elite.


I'm kind of on the fence with this...

If we're looking to move a guy, Jenks would likely bring back a good return. Plus, power arms on guys that aren't in great shape tend to have a limited shelf life. Whether that is 2 more years, 5 more years, or 10 more years for Jenks, I have no idea. But it wouldn't be nuts to think that now might be a time to sell high on Bobby.

On the other hand, I agree completely with the quote above...We're spoiled. Fans have a tendency to forget how nice it is to have a solid closer until they don't actually have one anymore.

Regarding becoming a seller right now...I really think that in this division, it's entirely too early to do that. This team may be playing mostly bad so far, but every team in the Central is seriously flawed in some way. There have been lots of teams that ultimately made the postseason that had worse June 8th records than the Sox have now. I think this needs to go at least to the all-star break before we start asking this question.

munchman33
06-08-2009, 01:27 PM
First, I'm going to come out fully against trading Jenks. Along with Quentin, Danks, Floyd and a few others, that guy is a keeper. I don't know why his name keeps coming up in trade discussions.

And I'm with kaufsox. I always thought that once the White Sox won a World Series, I'd drift away from them because I'd feel the mission is complete and there's nothing left to do. And that is most certainly not the case. There will always be something for this team to do, and at the moment, it's to go to the playoffs two years in a row. I actually had a dream about it last night. Seriously. So please, for the love of God, win the division.

Do you want to pay a closer $12 million a season for 4-6 years? Because someone probably will. I love Bobby, but that's money well spent somewhere else. Trade him on the fly if you can.

hi im skot
06-08-2009, 01:40 PM
Do you want to pay a closer $12 million a season for 4-6 years? Because someone probably will. I love Bobby, but that's money well spent somewhere else. Trade him on the fly if you can.

Honest question, munch - who do you replace him with?

Boondock Saint
06-08-2009, 01:41 PM
I'm going to preface this by saying that I'm asking this out of nothing but sheer curiosity, so please don't rip me for just being curious.

What kind of haul do you think the Sox could pull in for Matt Thornton right now? I can only think of one or two times the entire season that he hasn't been absolutely lights out, and that's including all the times he's been brought in with runners on base late in games. Surely, there are teams out there that are looking at him as a closer candidate, and I'm wondering what type of offers you think KW is or will be getting for him.

UofCSoxFan
06-08-2009, 01:41 PM
I think this series with the Tigers will determine a lot as to whether we go for it this year or try to get pieces in place to make a better run next year. If we take 3 of 5 or better, we are right in the race still. If we lose this series, we are still in the race but we need to really ask ourselves, is it better to try to barely sneak into the playoffs (which would still be unlikely) or do we want to have a legit World Series contender 2, 3 years from now.

hi im skot
06-08-2009, 01:47 PM
I'm going to preface this by saying that I'm asking this out of nothing but sheer curiosity, so please don't rip me for just being curious.

What kind of haul do you think the Sox could pull in for Matt Thornton right now? I can only think of one or two times the entire season that he hasn't been absolutely lights out, and that's including all the times he's been brought in with runners on base late in games. Surely, there are teams out there that are looking at him as a closer candidate, and I'm wondering what type of offers you think KW is or will be getting for him.

I would think it all depends on the team. If there's a team that has a legit shot at making the playoffs but lacks a strong bridge between the starter and a solid closer, Thornton would be a huge addition to their club, so a position player and a prospect wouldn't seem to be out of the question.

If someone is looking to move him into the closer's role, I feel like he wouldn't bring a whole lot in return.

(Really, I have no idea what I'm talking about...just my guesses)

TDog
06-08-2009, 01:50 PM
I don't understand that logic. Why not send him down if he isn't productive here? It's not like the "clock" keeps running - send him down and he doesn't accrue sevice time to get to being a Super Two or to adding a year.

Doesn't "the clock" keep running? Doesn't when he becomes eligible for arbitration and/or free agency depend on when he was originally brought up, regardless of his options thereafter? That isn't a rhetorical question. I believed it did, and I am wondering if I am mistaken.

If "the clock" started running on Beckham last week, bringing him up made no sense to me. They obviously brought him up to play third base because the Sox miss having a real third baseman. But his future would seem to be at second base because Getz doesn't seem to be the future face of second for the Sox.

Under such circumstances, Beckham's callup would only make sense if he could help the team win this year. Calling him up in June to play third base would seem to signal that the management is going to hang on to their veterans and darn the holes in the current Sox.*

*Sportswriters used to employ such poetic metaphor to describe the Pale Hose when I was growing up. I can't imagine why anyone is nostalgic for that trade with the Giants that ensured the Pale Hose would grow paler and paler, but its mention put me in a nostalgic mood.

soxinem1
06-08-2009, 02:01 PM
When Caruso decided to not work hard and came in to the '99 season worse than he was the year before, it convinced the Sox to can him and go after a new SS, so in a way, Caruso helped the Sox get Valentin and Eldred, two big keys to the 2000 division champs team. The subtraction of Navarro and John Snyder in that trade was icing on the cake.

So in some ways, Caruso was a huge part of the Sox' success from the white flag trade. If he wouldn't have sucked so much in '99, the Sox might not win the division the next year. And who knows what chain of events that could have set off in the long run.

I guess indirectly that is accurate, but in reality, that was a trade swapping two brutal so-called starters in Snyder and Navarro for a couple injury-plagued and under-performing veterans who did not have a place on the MIL roster, hardly the formula for building a champion.

Since Navarro had a big contract, it was more of a salary dump on the Sox end and an 'I'll take yours if you take mine' trade.

It just happened to work out that we got a half season of decent starts from Big Cal, and a lot of HR's, errors, and K's from Valentin.

munchman33
06-08-2009, 02:20 PM
Honest question, munch - who do you replace him with?

Closers are one of those things that come out of nowhere. Just have guys around who might be able to do it. For instance, having Thornton here next year is a good move. So would allowing Link a shot to make the team. If we trade Bobby in season and Dotel is still on the team, he's the obvious choice for the rest of the season.

soxinem1
06-08-2009, 02:21 PM
I wasn't happy about the last one, but KW would be more than justified if he engineered one now:?:

Remember???



The Chicago White Sox received:

Keith Foulke (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Keith_Foulke), right-handed pitcher (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pitcher)
Bob Howry (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bob_Howry), right-handed pitcher
Lorenzo Barcelo (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lorenzo_Barcelo), right-handed pitcher
Ken Vining (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ken_Vining), left-handed pitcher
Mike Caruso (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mike_Caruso), shortstop (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shortstop)
Brian Manning (http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Brian_Manning_(baseball_player)&action=edit&redlink=1)
The San Francisco Giants received:

Wilson Alvarez (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wilson_Alvarez), left-handed pitcher
Danny Darwin (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Danny_Darwin), right-handed pitcher
Roberto Hernández (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Roberto_Hern%C3%A1ndez_(baseball_player)), right-handed pitcher


I always felt this was a way over-rated trade.

First, Barcelo, who was the real key to the deal, NEVER came close to possessing the stuff they claimed he had, and he was a wash out once he came to the big leagues. Despite a few decent games in Y2K, I think the White Sox scouts totally blew it on this guy.

Manning and Vining NEVER did anything.

Caruso had some offensive talent in 1998, totally stunk in 1999, and he made Jose Valentin look like a GG winner. Again, what did they see in this guy?

Howry was/is a thrower who, as the 'Closer of the Future' lasted about a year and a month. He ended up an inconsistent middle reliever just a few years after he was acquired.

Foulke was a closer for a little over two years, then was traded for, well, you know who......

The kicker is Roberto Hernandez lasted longer as a closer than Foulke and Howry did (with the White Sox) combined after he left, and outlasted the MLB careers of the 'prospects' he was traded for, except Foulke and Howry (however, both of them will not pitch as long as Hernandez did).

So in other words, two starters and a closer were traded for what amounted to be two-middle relievers (which is what Foulke and Howry were when they were traded).

Now, is this type of 'White Flag' trade what we really need?

Eddo144
06-08-2009, 03:17 PM
I don't understand that logic. Why not send him down if he isn't productive here? It's not like the "clock" keeps running - send him down and he doesn't accrue sevice time to get to being a Super Two or to adding a year.
The clock does keep running. Arbitration is based on time since your first appearance on the major league roster.

That doesn't necessarily mean the Sox must keep him up; if he's hitting .200/.300/.330, him being on the roster is hurting the team. But if he's doing as good (or only slightly worse) than Fields/Getz, he might as well keep playing to get experience.

Jpgr91
06-08-2009, 04:48 PM
If KW does not think the Sox will have a realistic chance in 2010 there is no reason why he should not trade away the entire back end of our bullpen. If you are not going to give yourself a realistic shot to win the WS, what does it matter who you use to replace the back end of your bullpen with? Teams in contention are always looking for bullpen help, I think Thorton, Jenks, and Dotel would net the Sox a HUGE return.

gr8mexico
06-08-2009, 06:09 PM
The Sox should only consider trading 2 players this year.
Jermaine Dye and Octavio Dotel. The Braves are in need
of a RF and Jermaine Dye would be a perfect fit.
Maybe Jermaine Dye for Jeff Francoeur (25YrsOld) and a prospect.
Octavio Dotel can help many teams like Tampa Bay,The Phillies, Rangers,
Brewers and can bring something solid back.

TDog
06-08-2009, 06:23 PM
The Sox should only consider trading 2 players this year. ...

Why not Fields and Wise?

gr8mexico
06-08-2009, 06:42 PM
Why not Fields and Wise?
I didn't bring them up because I think the White Sox have
enought BP balls. Unless the Cubs want to trade the Busted Gatorade
Machine for Wise. Then the Sox should listen

TDog
06-08-2009, 06:49 PM
I didn't bring them up because I think the White Sox have
enought BP balls. Unless the Cubs want to trade the Busted Gatorade
Machine for Wise. Then the Sox should listen

Even so, trading Fields and Wise would help the White Sox more today and in the future than trading Dye and/or Dotel would.

DickAllen72
06-08-2009, 06:53 PM
Even so, trading Fields and Wise would help the White Sox more today and in the future than trading Dye and/or Dotel would.
No one would want Wise but your point is a good one.

Instead of a "White Flag" trade, KW needs to sell some of those highly touted prospects (eg. Poreda, Flowers, Allen) along with some of these younger players who may need a change of scenery (eg. Fields, Anderson, Getz) and bring in some quality major league talent at 3B and CF.

That would improve the Sox chances in '09 and '10.

tm1119
06-08-2009, 06:59 PM
KW should be looking to move Linebrink and Dotel without a doubt. Konerko should only be moved if we get a great package of players in return for him, because he is still productive and not really that old. And Dye should only be moved if the prospects are better than the picks we will get for him (which i doubt). And I highly doubt other teams would even want anybody else on our team that are actually tradeable.

Frater Perdurabo
06-08-2009, 08:25 PM
Stay the course. Don't go out of your way to be a "buyer" or a "seller." If a deal comes along that will improve the club now and for the long-term (like the Peavy deal), then do it, but don't go trading quality prospects for marginal upgrades, or selling off useful players who can help us this year and next year.

Huisj
06-08-2009, 08:57 PM
I guess indirectly that is accurate, but in reality, that was a trade swapping two brutal so-called starters in Snyder and Navarro for a couple injury-plagued and under-performing veterans who did not have a place on the MIL roster, hardly the formula for building a champion.

Since Navarro had a big contract, it was more of a salary dump on the Sox end and an 'I'll take yours if you take mine' trade.

It just happened to work out that we got a half season of decent starts from Big Cal, and a lot of HR's, errors, and K's from Valentin.

I sort of meant that to be tongue-in-cheek I guess, although there is something to it. Obviously it was a junk-for-junk change-of-scenery trade, but if Caruso eeks out, say, a slappy .270 or so his sophomore year (as opposed to the lazy .250 he did hit), does that trade go down the way it did? Would the Sox have had interest in Valentin, or would they have found someone else to dump their garbage on in another junk swap? And what would the odds be that that junk swap would have been such a surprisingly positive trade for the Sox? Valentin was a huge spark on that 2000 team--yes, he made errors, but his clutch bat and baserunning in the 2 hole that season was a big reason the Sox scored runs the way they did that year.

Again, the whole point of the comment in the first place was just that trades (and especially ones involving prospects) have long lasting effects beyond just the immediate return. Caruso's involvement in the WFT had strange indirect consequences that changed the face of the team a lot.

tick53
06-08-2009, 09:37 PM
I don't know. All I know is that I'm pretty bummed out right now.:(:

Frater Perdurabo
06-08-2009, 09:44 PM
If the Sox lose 85 games but in the process find out if BA, Fields, Getz, Nix, Richard and Beckham are or are not part of the future, then this year is not a waste.

OTOH, if the Sox don't win the division and play a bunch of limited-value vets, and don't find out about BA, Fields, Getz, Nix, Richard and Beckham, then this year will have been wasted.

tm1119
06-08-2009, 11:00 PM
If the Sox lose 85 games but in the process find out if BA, Fields, Getz, Nix, Richard and Beckham are or are not part of the future, then this year is not a waste.

OTOH, if the Sox don't win the division and play a bunch of limited-value vets, and don't find out about BA, Fields, Getz, Nix, Richard and Beckham, then this year will have been wasted.

Pretty much. This team is not winning a World Series with the way it is currently constructed, so why not find out who is for real and who isnt.

russ99
06-08-2009, 11:44 PM
Pretty much. This team is not winning a World Series with the way it is currently constructed, so why not find out who is for real and who isnt.

Because people buy tickets and watch games to see either a competitive team or a team that plays hard and leaves it all on the field. Fielding a team like that will do neither. And considering the track record of subpar Sox players/prospects getting multiple chances, like Owens and MacDougal, fielding the Charlotte Knights at Comiskey the rest of the year may not prove anything.

Do we really want to re-live a large portion of the 90's and be an afterthought in the city again? I sure don't.

Lip Man 1
06-08-2009, 11:54 PM
Russ:

You have a point about ticket sales but let me ask you this. Wouldn't the Sox have been in a better situation in the first place both on the field and in the stands if they had been even semi-aggressive in a buyer's market this off season?

I dislike 'rebuilding' but more and more I'm beginning to lean to the viewpoint that it's time to bring up everybody, Poreda, Shelby, Jordan Danks and see what they can do the rest of the year.

At least Kenny will have an idea of what he needs to do this next off season.

If they can't even have a winning season with the current cast, how many fans do you think will be at the game come September anyway?

Lip

DSpivack
06-08-2009, 11:57 PM
Russ:

You have a point about ticket sales but let me ask you this. Wouldn't the Sox have been in a better situation in the first place both on the field and in the stands if they had been even semi-aggressive in a buyer's market this off season?

I dislike 'rebuilding' but more and more I'm beginning to lean to the viewpoint that it's time to bring up everybody, Poreda, Shelby, Jordan Danks and see what they can do the rest of the year.

At least Kenny will have an idea of what he needs to do this next off season.

If they can't even have a winning season with the current cast, how many fans do you think will be at the game come September anyway?

Lip

That's pointless and even detrimental if those kids aren't ready, no?

Pods in CF might be scary, but if he continues being decent and TCQ comes back healthy, and Jose is solid, there is no reason this team can't compete with Detroit.

Patrick134
06-09-2009, 12:00 AM
That's pointless and even detrimental if those kids aren't ready, no?

Pods in CF might be scary, but if he continues being decent and TCQ comes back healthy, and Jose is solid, there is no reason this team can't compete with Detroit.


Right. This division is there for the taking. But I don't see the winner of the central having much success in the postseason, but ya never know.

DSpivack
06-09-2009, 12:01 AM
Right. This division is there for the taking. But I don't see the winner of the central having much success in the postseason, but ya never know.

True, but getting there is important, anything else is gravy. I'd be ecstatic to see this franchise's first consecutive postseason appearances.

palehozenychicty
06-09-2009, 12:04 AM
Right. This division is there for the taking. But I don't see the winner of the central having much success in the postseason, but ya never know.


That's the catch-22 of this season. If the team can play with any consistency, the division is theirs for the taking. I just don't think they have enough players right now to do it. It's always better to make the playoffs, even as a weak entrant. You look better to free agents when in the postseason.

Lip Man 1
06-09-2009, 12:14 AM
Assuming you have any interest in signing free agents.

Spivak:

Again a valid point. I guess my only answer is that Poreda's been in the minors for a few years, Shelby for a few years. The only guy out of the names I mentioned who could be rushed is Jordan Danks.

But look at it this way. If the team continues to play they way they have been for most of this year, these kids can be brought up in a situation that doesn't have a lot of pressure. They can get acclimated and again it gives Kenny an idea of what he might have to do this off season.

Not bringing them up, especially if the team continues to play poorly in the hopes that attendance won't fall off as much, isn't a good reason to leave them in the minors. In 2010 if the Sox were to be in a race, and somebody got hurt, would you want these kids called up in a pressure environment without knowing what they may be able to do?

Lip

Eddo144
06-09-2009, 01:12 AM
The Sox should only consider trading 2 players this year.
Jermaine Dye and Octavio Dotel. The Braves are in need
of a RF and Jermaine Dye would be a perfect fit.
Maybe Jermaine Dye for Jeff Francoeur (25YrsOld) and a prospect.
Octavio Dotel can help many teams like Tampa Bay,The Phillies, Rangers,
Brewers and can bring something solid back.
Jeff Francoeur is an awful baseball player, and the Braves will be lucky to get a player of Josh Fields's caliber for him. Giving up Dye in order to get Francoeur would be one of the worst trades in history.

Whitesoxfan23
06-09-2009, 02:23 AM
Jeff Francoeur is an awful baseball player, and the Braves will be lucky to get a player of Josh Fields's caliber for him. Giving up Dye in order to get Francoeur would be one of the worst trades in history.


Amen. White Sox fans would ****ing riot. The Braves are my 2nd favorite team, and I will admit just how freaking awful Francoeur really is.

Beautox
06-09-2009, 08:45 AM
I heard people talking about what a big series this Tigers one is but is it really? Let's look at the best case scenario Sox sweep all 4 and are back to .500 and potentially within a half game of first. But then what?

We've seen this team do that before, go on a nice run only to go on an even worse run like the one they are in now. If the Sox are hanging around when the trade deadline approaches like say within 3-4 games I say we have another white flag trade.

Get what you can for some of these guys and try to rebuild, this team isn't built for a long haul or a post season run, granted having TCQ back in the lineup should help a lot but he isn't going to rise this team up from the dead. I'm really ticked off at the hitting today but I'm not suprised by it either and it doesn't seem like Ozzie is either, that's a big problem. This team is starting to look real bad real fast. I'll still be watching all year to see the progression of guys like Beckham and Getz but I have no hope for this team to go on any sort of run. And that's sad.

Agreed; even with the central being as weak as it is, this team at this juncture just doesn't have the pieces to make a sustained run into the post season. I'd prefer we not mortgage our future in (Allen, Poreda, Flowers, Danks, Viciedo ect.) to try and come up with some ace that will only set back our rebuilding time.

Lets move through the vets and add depth to our farm and hope we can take a page out of the marlins book and compete next year with youth in what looks to be another down year in the central.

Honestly I can see Thome waving his NTC to go to a contender as this may very well be his last year in MLB; right now with the way Ortiz is hitting it wouldn't surprise me in the least to see Jim head off to Boston for one of Delcarman or Bard.

Paul said earlier in the year if need be he would waive his NTC for the better of the team, but hoped it wouldn't come to that. Move him along with Linebrink to the angels for Wood and Arredondo; possibly even throwing in Colon as some second half depth for a team that always seems plagued by injuries in their rotation.

Dye had been previously linked with reds, i could see the braves and mets having interest in him as well. i wouldn't mind seeing a middling SP prospect coming back our way, possibly along the lines of the previously thought Bailey maybe even a better looking prospect like Kris Medlen if we packaged him with Dotel.

With AJ's contract ending in '10 i think the way hes performed would be a perfect time to sell high. Flowers bat is ML ready now, but his defense needs a bit more seasoning. Teams like the Rays and Brewers could defiantly use a shot in the arm with production like AJ's behind the dish and both teams have prospects to make it happen.

Trade Fields to oakland for Travis Buck, this is just a classic change of scenery for both players and dealing for a posistion of depth for both as well.

so say we wave the white flag and get back a haul similar to whats listed above we're looking at something like this going into '10. also call up every one except Dayan.

C - Flowers, 1B - Allen, 2B - Beckham, SS - Alexei, 3B - Wood, LF - Buck, CF - Danks, RF - Quentin

Buehrle, Floyd, Danks, Richard, SP aquired from Dye / Poreda

Jenks, Thornton, Bard, Arredondo, Poreda, Link, Carrasco

voodoochile
06-09-2009, 09:58 AM
Agreed; even with the central being as weak as it is, this team at this juncture just doesn't have the pieces to make a sustained run into the post season. I'd prefer we not mortgage our future in (Allen, Poreda, Flowers, Danks, Viciedo ect.) to try and come up with some ace that will only set back our rebuilding time.

Lets move through the vets and add depth to our farm and hope we can take a page out of the marlins book and compete next year with youth in what looks to be another down year in the central.

Honestly I can see Thome waving his NTC to go to a contender as this may very well be his last year in MLB; right now with the way Ortiz is hitting it wouldn't surprise me in the least to see Jim head off to Boston for one of Delcarman or Bard.

Paul said earlier in the year if need be he would waive his NTC for the better of the team, but hoped it wouldn't come to that. Move him along with Linebrink to the angels for Wood and Arredondo; possibly even throwing in Colon as some second half depth for a team that always seems plagued by injuries in their rotation.

Dye had been previously linked with reds, i could see the braves and mets having interest in him as well. i wouldn't mind seeing a middling SP prospect coming back our way, possibly along the lines of the previously thought Bailey maybe even a better looking prospect like Kris Medlen if we packaged him with Dotel.

With AJ's contract ending in '10 i think the way hes performed would be a perfect time to sell high. Flowers bat is ML ready now, but his defense needs a bit more seasoning. Teams like the Rays and Brewers could defiantly use a shot in the arm with production like AJ's behind the dish and both teams have prospects to make it happen.

Trade Fields to oakland for Travis Buck, this is just a classic change of scenery for both players and dealing for a posistion of depth for both as well.

so say we wave the white flag and get back a haul similar to whats listed above we're looking at something like this going into '10. also call up every one except Dayan.

C - Flowers, 1B - Allen, 2B - Beckham, SS - Alexei, 3B - Wood, LF - Buck, CF - Danks, RF - Quentin

Buehrle, Floyd, Danks, Richard, SP aquired from Dye / Poreda

Jenks, Thornton, Bard, Arredondo, Poreda, Link, Carrasco

That's just ridiculous...

UofCSoxFan
06-09-2009, 10:55 AM
Trade Fields to oakland for Travis Buck, this is just a classic change of scenery for both players and dealing for a posistion of depth for both as well.

so say we wave the white flag and get back a haul similar to whats listed above we're looking at something like this going into '10. also call up every one except Dayan.

C - Flowers, 1B - Allen, 2B - Beckham, SS - Alexei, 3B - Wood, LF - Buck, CF - Danks, RF - Quentin

Buehrle, Floyd, Danks, Richard, SP aquired from Dye / Poreda

Jenks, Thornton, Bard, Arredondo, Poreda, Link, Carrasco

I doubt the A's would want Fields. Given his poor defense and high strike out totals. They went most of last year (or was it two years ago when Chavez was out) with two of the worst hitting third basemen in baseball, but they could at least play D.

The team you listed above loses 100 games...at least...No thanks.

southside rocks
06-09-2009, 11:04 AM
so say we wave the white flag and get back a haul similar to whats listed above we're looking at something like this going into '10. also call up every one except Dayan.

C - Flowers, 1B - Allen, 2B - Beckham, SS - Alexei, 3B - Wood, LF - Buck, CF - Danks, RF - Quentin

Buehrle, Floyd, Danks, Richard, SP aquired from Dye / Poreda

Jenks, Thornton, Bard, Arredondo, Poreda, Link, Carrasco

For that team, I don't renew my season tickets.

ChiSoxFan81
06-09-2009, 11:05 AM
I doubt the A's would want Fields. Given his poor defense and high strike out totals. They went most of last year (or was it two years ago when Chavez was out) with two of the worst hitting third basemen in baseball, but they could at least play D.

The team you listed above loses 100 games...at least...No thanks.

Unless they're charging minor league admission prices, the place will be empty too.

WhiteSoxFTW
06-09-2009, 11:51 AM
That's just ridiculous...


I actually laughed when I read the previous post. There isn't going to be a fire sale, lol.

white sox bill
06-09-2009, 12:19 PM
Don't you have to have some marketable merchandise to have a fire sale?

slavko
06-09-2009, 12:52 PM
The fact that people still call it the White Flag Trade, and put it in capital letters, is a reason for the White Sox not to do such a thing.

The Sox were below .500 when they traded Alvarez, Darwin and Hernandez to the Giants. The players were going to leave after the season. And the trade still embittered people.


There it is in a nutshell. We weren't going to pay up, so we traded.

I guess indirectly that is accurate, but in reality, that was a trade swapping two brutal so-called starters in Snyder and Navarro for a couple injury-plagued and under-performing veterans who did not have a place on the MIL roster, hardly the formula for building a champion.

Since Navarro had a big contract, it was more of a salary dump on the Sox end and an 'I'll take yours if you take mine' trade.

It just happened to work out that we got a half season of decent starts from Big Cal, and a lot of HR's, errors, and K's from Valentin.

I wouldn't call Snyder brutal, just the opposite. He was the ace of the staff for half a season, beat Pedro twice, hurt his arm and was never the same. Got traded for bad arm Eldred who also gave us half a season. And Valentin made the exciting play look easy and the easy play look exciting. Plus tight pants and a great mustache.

Don't you have to have some marketable merchandise to have a fire sale?

Jenks is marketable and BB says he can make anyone into a closer. Remember Hernandez from above.

4 points
06-09-2009, 04:22 PM
I agree with Nellie....No. The team really misses Quentin.

That`s it? Quentin comes back, and all our ills are cured!:scratch:

MHOUSE
06-10-2009, 12:40 AM
I know we're all depressed after a tough loss, but I've been thinking about it since last year in the playoffs. Even as great as the end of last season was, we were far away from belonging on the field with the Tampa Bay Rays. This team is no better than the 2008 version and even if we pull out the division, are we really going to beat the Yankees, Red Sox, or Rays in a series? No way. I want to win, but if we're going to contend for a World Series in the next 3 or 4 years then we need an entirely new approach on offense. These old, station-to-station sluggers just aren't going to get it done. It's time to rebuild. We've all ready started by getting Beckham and Poreda up here, so lets just build around TCQ, Beckham, Danks & Floyd, and Alexei and go from there. Thoughts?

Konerko05
06-10-2009, 12:41 AM
http://www.whitesoxinteractive.com/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=112520

gr8mexico
06-10-2009, 01:03 AM
Brad Lidge went on the 15 day DL. The Phillies are in need of a Bullpen guy. The Sox could start by shopping Octavio Dotel.
Octavio Dotel to the Phillies for John Mayberry JR.

Nellie_Fox
06-10-2009, 01:10 AM
Brad Lidge went on the 15 day DL. The Phillies are in need of a Bullpen guy. The Sox could start by shopping Octavio Dotel.
Octavio Dotel to the Phillies for John Mayberry JR.What's your obsession with John Mayberry Jr.? Twice you suggested Fields for him, now Dotel.

TDog
06-10-2009, 01:56 AM
I know we're all depressed after a tough loss, but I've been thinking about it since last year in the playoffs. Even as great as the end of last season was, we were far away from belonging on the field with the Tampa Bay Rays. ...

That simply isn't true. Everything was clicking for the Rays. The best White Sox hitter was injured. The White Sox pitching wasn't set up. The Rays beat Boston, and I certainly don't believe they were that much better than the Red Sox.

I'm not sure the Rays will end up a .500 team this year, although I could say the same for the White Sox.

I've lived through a lot of years when being a White Sox fan meant not even contemplating the possibility of playing in the postseason in the foreseeable future. I read the suggestions in this thread, think about what they would do to my favorite team and am reminded of those days.

PushinWeight
06-10-2009, 01:59 AM
It's June, not July. No reason to wave a white flag this early. Ask this question again if the trade deadline is within days and the Sox are still treading water around .500 and around 5-10 games out of first. I would not want to be Kenny in that situation.

DirtySox
06-10-2009, 06:19 PM
Cowley Twitter (http://twitter.com/cst_sox/status/2108911698):

KW: if the team doesn't pick it up hard decisions will have to be made. That's basically what he just said.

DirtySox
06-10-2009, 06:36 PM
KW Not Ready to Tear it Down Yet (http://blogs.chicagosports.chicagotribune.com/sports_hardball/2009/06/ken-williams-not-ready-to-tear-down-white-sox-yet.html)

Dan H
06-10-2009, 09:00 PM
There is absolutely no reason to make a move right now. But thought has to be given to it. But that thought has to happen without anger and at a time when you have some leverage.

PhillipsBubba
06-10-2009, 09:06 PM
KW said...

"But those things (changes) are a little ways away and we still got time to right the ship and start to play a little better. But if we don't, it is what it is. You got to produce in this game and we got expectations of winning."

Not exactly a ringing endorsement.

Look for changes soon as the Sox are "what we thought they were"!