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View Full Version : Brian Anderson, here we go again


Lillian
05-27-2009, 12:11 AM
I hated to start a new thread for this, but I really didn't know where to put it. At any rate, I just wanted to make a few observations about Anderson.

1) He started the season with just 600 Major League at bats. You know that I always like to quote what Ted Williams used to say about most guys needing about 1,000 AB's, at the big league level, to figure it out.
It looks like he just may have indeed finally figured it out. He has really had a lot of good at bats.

2) Note that he's hitting .345 vs righties, with a .400 OBP. This is a further indication that he has really not been done any favor by being platooned over the last couple of seasons.

3) Many of us have forgotten what a great prospect Brian was, and if he should finally fulfill his potential, it really shouldn't surprise anyone. Of course it's still early, but he is really looking very solid at the plate.

4) Imagine how a productive Anderson would compliment the rest of all the good young talent coming up within a year or two. An outfield of Anderson in CF, Danks in RF, and Quentin in LF would be a great defensive outfield.

Craig Grebeck
05-27-2009, 12:48 AM
I hated to start a new thread for this, but I really didn't know where to put it. At any rate, I just wanted to make a few observations about Anderson.

1) He started the season with just 600 Major League at bats. You know that I always like to quote what Ted Williams used to say about most guys needing about 1,000 AB's, at the big league level, to figure it out.
It looks like he just may have indeed finally figured it out. He has really had a lot of good at bats.

2) Note that he's hitting .345 vs righties, with a .400 OBP. This is a further indication that he has really not been done any favor by being platooned over the last couple of seasons.

3) Many of us have forgotten what a great prospect Brian was, and if he should finally fulfill his potential, it really shouldn't surprise anyone. Of course it's still early, but he is really looking very solid at the plate.

4) Imagine how a productive Anderson would compliment the rest of all the good young talent coming up within a year or two. An outfield of Anderson in CF, Danks in RF, and Quentin in LF would be a great defensive outfield.
He wasn't all that great of a prospect. He had contact issues and poor plate discipline in the minors that portended all of the struggles he's had to this point. I'd love it if he was legitimate, but his **** swing will bring him back to earth.

And can we please stop penciling Danks into RF? Since when are people content with a sub .800 OPS out of a corner outfield spot?

russ99
05-27-2009, 12:51 AM
I hated to start a new thread for this, but I really didn't know where to put it. At any rate, I just wanted to make a few observations about Anderson.

1) He started the season with just 600 Major League at bats. You know that I always like to quote what Ted Williams used to say about most guys needing about 1,000 AB's, at the big league level, to figure it out.
It looks like he just may have indeed finally figured it out. He has really had a lot of good at bats.

2) Note that he's hitting .345 vs righties, with a .400 OBP. This is a further indication that he has really not been done any favor by being platooned over the last couple of seasons.

3) Many of us have forgotten what a great prospect Brian was, and if he should finally fulfill his potential, it really shouldn't surprise anyone. Of course it's still early, but he is really looking very solid at the plate.

4) Imagine how a productive Anderson would compliment the rest of all the good young talent coming up within a year or two. An outfield of Anderson in CF, Danks in RF, and Quentin in LF would be a great defensive outfield.

While, yes Brian has had a fairly good season so far, he has good games and then games like tonight: going 0-5 with 2Ks and 7 LOB. And it's not just after his injury, he had games like that when he first got the job when Wise got hurt.

That's why it's so maddening. When he looks like he's finally turning the corner, he has games where he looks like the Brian Anderson of 2006 and 2007. It's like good Brian and bad Brian... I love it when we see good Brian, but I have my usual doubts when we see bad Brian.

So while he definitely can help the Sox, and should get a lot of playing time as our currently best option in CF, IMO expecting him to develop into a star player or the player he was projected to be as a prospect is really asking too much.

He is what he is and his close to 700 MLB at-bats has not proven otherwise. On any club with 3 major league quality OF's he'd be the 4th outfielder. On the 2009 Sox, he's the 3rd OF.

That said, I have to wonder at what point do the Sox look to bring in better offensive numbers at CF, be it a real leadoff hitter or more of a doubles/RBI guy; or could you assume that Anderson will keep the job until Jordan Danks or John Shelby comes up?

Konerko05
05-27-2009, 01:05 AM
While, yes Brian has had a fairly good season so far, he has good games and then games like tonight: going 0-5 with 2Ks and 7 LOB.

That's basically every major league hitter throughout baseball history. To expect a player to never have a bad game or an 0-for is absurd.

doublem23
05-27-2009, 01:27 AM
And can we please stop penciling Danks into RF? Since when are people content with a sub .800 OPS out of a corner outfield spot?

I assume those people are content with that because they think we'll have enough power potential from LF (Quentin), 3B (Viciedo), SS/2B (Beckham), 1B (Allen), DH (Dye/Konerko), and C (Flowers)

While, yes Brian has had a fairly good season so far, he has good games and then games like tonight: going 0-5 with 2Ks and 7 LOB. And it's not just after his injury, he had games like that when he first got the job when Wise got hurt.

That's why it's so maddening. When he looks like he's finally turning the corner, he has games where he looks like the Brian Anderson of 2006 and 2007. It's like good Brian and bad Brian... I love it when we see good Brian, but I have my usual doubts when we see bad Brian.

So while he definitely can help the Sox, and should get a lot of playing time as our currently best option in CF, IMO expecting him to develop into a star player or the player he was projected to be as a prospect is really asking too much.

He is what he is and his close to 700 MLB at-bats has not proven otherwise. On any club with 3 major league quality OF's he'd be the 4th outfielder. On the 2009 Sox, he's the 3rd OF.

That said, I have to wonder at what point do the Sox look to bring in better offensive numbers at CF, be it a real leadoff hitter or more of a doubles/RBI guy; or could you assume that Anderson will keep the job until Jordan Danks or John Shelby comes up?

This is the kind of craziness that keeps the "anti-FOBA's are BA haters" mantra going around. The guy had a bad day at the plate. It happens. I'm sure Ted Williams, Babe Ruth, Joe Jackson all had a day when they went 0-5. Now, if we're talking about Brian being in a 3-40 slump next Tuesday, OK, that's the BA from '06 we remember, but come on, the book on BA is he's a below average hitter and an above average defender, and so far, he's exceeded every expectation anyone could have had about him.

Rohan
05-27-2009, 01:30 AM
I'm avoiding this thread because it makes me sick.

doublem23
05-27-2009, 01:32 AM
I'm avoiding this thread because it makes me sick.

:thumbsup:

I don't think posting in a thread qualifies as avoiding it, though.

jabrch
05-27-2009, 01:35 AM
I assume those people are content with that because they think we'll have enough power potential from LF (Quentin), 3B (Viciedo), SS/2B (Beckham), 1B (Allen), DH (Dye/Konerko), and C (Flowers)

Or those who have no idea what to project from Danks as he matures? Or those who think OPS is overrated? Or those who Andre Ethier or Jay Bruce make fine players at 300K in RF. There are lots of reasons to believe Jordan will someday be able to man a starting spot on this team, RF or CF.



This is the kind of craziness that keeps the "anti-FOBA's are BA haters" mantra going around. The guy had a bad day at the plate. It happens. I'm sure Ted Williams, Babe Ruth, Joe Jackson all had a day when they went 0-5. Now, if we're talking about Brian being in a 3-40 slump next Tuesday, OK, that's the BA from '06 we remember, but come on, the book on BA is he's a below average hitter and an above average defender, and so far, he's exceeded every expectation anyone could have had about him.

I agree. There is a lot to be happy about this year - BA is a big part of it. There is a lot to be concerned about and so far, BA has been a very small part of that.

Nellie_Fox
05-27-2009, 02:02 AM
Imagine how a productive Anderson would compliment the rest of all the good young talent coming up within a year or two.Saying nice things about them wouldn't be as important as complementing them would be.

Taliesinrk
05-27-2009, 02:26 AM
While, yes Brian has had a fairly good season so far, he has good games and then games like tonight: going 0-5 with 2Ks and 7 LOB. And it's not just after his injury, he had games like that when he first got the job when Wise got hurt.

That's why it's so maddening. When he looks like he's finally turning the corner, he has games where he looks like the Brian Anderson of 2006 and 2007. It's like good Brian and bad Brian... I love it when we see good Brian, but I have my usual doubts when we see bad Brian.

So while he definitely can help the Sox, and should get a lot of playing time as our currently best option in CF, IMO expecting him to develop into a star player or the player he was projected to be as a prospect is really asking too much.

He is what he is and his close to 700 MLB at-bats has not proven otherwise. On any club with 3 major league quality OF's he'd be the 4th outfielder. On the 2009 Sox, he's the 3rd OF.

That said, I have to wonder at what point do the Sox look to bring in better offensive numbers at CF, be it a real leadoff hitter or more of a doubles/RBI guy; or could you assume that Anderson will keep the job until Jordan Danks or John Shelby comes up?

You've gotta be kidding me. He's been one of the more consistent players on our team this year... in a good way too. GMAB

palehozenychicty
05-27-2009, 02:43 AM
Brian has been doing just fine, thank you.

BadBobbyJenks
05-27-2009, 03:10 AM
Or those who have no idea what to project from Danks as he matures? Or those who think OPS is overrated? Or those who Andre Ethier or Jay Bruce make fine players at 300K in RF.

OPS is overrated? And what do Jay Bruce and Andre Either have to do with Jordan Danks?

Jerome
05-27-2009, 04:24 AM
He's doing ok, but I'd prefer Rob Mackowiak and Darin Erstad

34 Inch Stick
05-27-2009, 09:19 AM
Saying nice things about them wouldn't be as important as complementing them would be.

Never underestimate the power of positive thinking.

Domeshot17
05-27-2009, 09:52 AM
You've gotta be kidding me. He's been one of the more consistent players on our team this year... in a good way too. GMAB


Best off leaving it alone. Brian Anderson is to Russ99 what Konerko is to Frater. Anyway, this whole thread is stupid and pointless. We need to stop putting Anderson under the microscope. This team is so inconsistent we need to worry about shoring up the holes first if we think we can be a contender. At the end of the year we can look back and say WOW BRIAN TURNED IT AROUND, Ok, Brian did his job, or, Brian continued to be Brian. Until then all we are doing is putting too much good or bad on small windows of time.

Ideally, Brian is doing what he has to do. The Problem is this offense is so bad he has to hit higher in the order then he should. But, with his glove, if he can keep this up, with his speed and overall Base Running ability, hes like the Ideal 9 hitter

kittle42
05-27-2009, 09:55 AM
I hated to start a new thread for this, but I really didn't know where to put it.

Why, why, oh why?

kittle42
05-27-2009, 09:58 AM
Anyway, this whole thread is stupid and pointless. We need to stop putting Anderson under the microscope. This team is so inconsistent we need to worry about shoring up the holes first if we think we can be a contender.

Yes, yes, and yes.

Craig Grebeck
05-27-2009, 10:48 AM
I assume those people are content with that because they think we'll have enough power potential from LF (Quentin), 3B (Viciedo), SS/2B (Beckham), 1B (Allen), DH (Dye/Konerko), and C (Flowers)
I refuse to take anyone seriously who believes Viciedo can play 3rd base.

southside rocks
05-27-2009, 10:49 AM
I hated to start a new thread for this, but I really didn't know where to put it. At any rate, I just wanted to make a few observations about Anderson.


Isn't it time Anderson had his own board/forum? I realize it would decimate the postings in the Clubhouse, but he has become an iconic figure to many and a shrine seems appropriate.

No teal, just mind bogglement.

doublem23
05-27-2009, 10:51 AM
I refuse to take anyone seriously who believes Viciedo can play 3rd base.

I take it you've seen every Barons game this year, and can make this definitive statement based on his first 39 games at third in the United States.

Craig Grebeck
05-27-2009, 10:54 AM
I take it you've seen every Barons game this year, and can make this definitive statement based on his first 39 games at third in the United States.
Show me one scout who believes he can stay at third base.

Tragg
05-27-2009, 11:00 AM
Anderson needs to slap hit, throw the ball from the outfield such that it bounces twice before reaching 2B, give balls off the bat a 1 second head start before he goes after them, and never EVER take a called strike.
Then he'll beloved and will be the starting CF without platoon.

voodoochile
05-27-2009, 11:09 AM
Anderson needs to slap hit, throw the ball from the outfield such that it bounces twice before reaching 2B, give balls off the bat a 1 second head start before he goes after them, and never EVER take a called strike.
Then he'll beloved and will be the starting CF without platoon.

Who does that? If you are referring to Pods, perhaps you missed the two OF assists he's had this past week.

jabrch
05-27-2009, 11:16 AM
Who does that? If you are referring to Pods, perhaps you missed the two OF assists he's had this past week.


They call this "jousting at windmills"

soxinem1
05-27-2009, 11:21 AM
While, yes Brian has had a fairly good season so far, he has good games and then games like tonight: going 0-5 with 2Ks and 7 LOB. And it's not just after his injury, he had games like that when he first got the job when Wise got hurt.

That's why it's so maddening. When he looks like he's finally turning the corner, he has games where he looks like the Brian Anderson of 2006 and 2007. It's like good Brian and bad Brian... I love it when we see good Brian, but I have my usual doubts when we see bad Brian.

So while he definitely can help the Sox, and should get a lot of playing time as our currently best option in CF, IMO expecting him to develop into a star player or the player he was projected to be as a prospect is really asking too much.

He is what he is and his close to 700 MLB at-bats has not proven otherwise. On any club with 3 major league quality OF's he'd be the 4th outfielder. On the 2009 Sox, he's the 3rd OF.

That said, I have to wonder at what point do the Sox look to bring in better offensive numbers at CF, be it a real leadoff hitter or more of a doubles/RBI guy; or could you assume that Anderson will keep the job until Jordan Danks or John Shelby comes up?

I have several issues with this entire statement.

First, you act like going 0-5 never happens to anyone including batting champions and HOF'ers. What should really be noted is that BA went 0-5 and was still hitting.290.

Second, you note he has had 700+ AB's in MLB. While true, more than half were not regular. If he got 500 AB's in a season this year and hit .229 with 5HR and 30 RBI, then you have a case, but until he is in the lineup regularly, that is not a valid statement. He's never been a regular for an entire season.

Third, and this is what no one has mentioned at all, is look at the team's record with BA in CF in the first half of 2006, and thus far as a quasi-regular.

Since he came back from the DL the team has pitched better, and I can recall at least five catches he made that he popped out of nowhere and made it look easy. Those are the catches that save runs and give you a chance to win.

So to me the only solution is to just put him out there and let him play. And if Ozzie shows some confidence and leaves him out there after the 0-5 games, they will become less frequent and BA will develop even further as a hitter.

kittle42
05-27-2009, 11:21 AM
Isn't it time Anderson had his own board/forum? I realize it would decimate the postings in the Clubhouse, but he has become an iconic figure to many and a shrine seems appropriate.

No teal, just mind bogglement.

I agree. In fact, imagine if Anderson was on the Cubs...local newscasts would lead with him every day.

chisox77
05-27-2009, 11:37 AM
I have always stated this - let BA play everyday, and watch him develop more as a hitter. He is a very good defensive player, and when he is in the lineup, I feel much better about the White Sox contending.

Harry Chappas
05-27-2009, 01:38 PM
Show me one scout who believes he can stay at third base.

First, since you are the expert on his game, maybe you could come up with a list of scouts that say he cannot stay at 3rd base.

You do realize that he is 20-years old, right?

BadBobbyJenks
05-27-2009, 02:21 PM
First, since you are the expert on his game, maybe you could come up with a list of scouts that say he cannot stay at 3rd base.

You do realize that he is 20-years old, right?

Can we find one body type like Dayan that stayed at 3B?

Harry Chappas
05-27-2009, 02:45 PM
Can we find one body type like Dayan that stayed at 3B?

Again, he is still too young to even figure out what his "body type" will be. With more sophisticated conditioning programs in the states, he may drop a LBs before all is said and done, although no one will ever confuse him with TCM.

Don't get me wrong, he hasn't exactly dazzled with his glove so far in Birmingham (9 errors), but I think it is a bit premature to rule him out in the future.

Tragg
05-27-2009, 03:12 PM
That said, I have to wonder at what point do the Sox look to bring in better offensive numbers at CF, be it a real leadoff hitter or more of a doubles/RBI guy; or could you assume that Anderson will keep the job until Jordan Danks or John Shelby comes up?
That's great if they do that.
But until they come up with someone better than the "tremendous" Wise, lillibridge, jerry owens, podsednik, erstad, torribo, he remains he only centerfielder on the roster.
This day by day critique of his hitting is just silly. His O is no worse than the players listed above. Wise has a .260 career obp, has a .301 spring obp, and he's Ozzie's man. it's a joke.

voodoochile
05-27-2009, 03:31 PM
That's great if they do that.
But until they come up with someone better than the "tremendous" Wise, lillibridge, jerry owens, podsednik, erstad, torribo, he remains he only centerfielder on the roster.
This day by day critique of his hitting is just silly. His O is no worse than the players listed above. Wise has a .260 career obp, has a .301 spring obp, and he's Ozzie's man. it's a joke.

And again, you have no clue how he'll be used when he comes back. And again, compared to BA's career numbers, Wise isn't any worse. And again the way they were used last fall made them look as if they could be a solid platoon system coming into this season.

The fact that BA has made a dramatic step up this season doesn't change any of those other facts.

The guy you are defending has been horrific offensively until last year in a limited platoon system and this year in a small sample size. Hopefully BA continues to improve offensively, but the fact he hasn't been magically handed the job as CF until now says a LOT more about his failures than it does anything else.

Here's hoping BA continues to improve and makes the CF controversy moot. If not, glad to have all the options we can get...

russ99
05-27-2009, 04:01 PM
I have several issues with this entire statement.

First, you act like going 0-5 never happens to anyone including batting champions and HOF'ers. What should really be noted is that BA went 0-5 and was still hitting.290.

Second, you note he has had 700+ AB's in MLB. While true, more than half were not regular. If he got 500 AB's in a season this year and hit .229 with 5HR and 30 RBI, then you have a case, but until he is in the lineup regularly, that is not a valid statement. He's never been a regular for an entire season.

Third, and this is what no one has mentioned at all, is look at the team's record with BA in CF in the first half of 2006, and thus far as a quasi-regular.

Since he came back from the DL the team has pitched better, and I can recall at least five catches he made that he popped out of nowhere and made it look easy. Those are the catches that save runs and give you a chance to win.

So to me the only solution is to just put him out there and let him play. And if Ozzie shows some confidence and leaves him out there after the 0-5 games, they will become less frequent and BA will develop even further as a hitter.

1) That is pure hypocracy. If Pods, Lillibridge or any other non-slugger has an 0-3 or 0-4 day, you guys want to run him out of town. if it's BA, "he's having an off day". And it's not the o-fer that's the problem, its the lack of any kind of quality at-bat, which Ozzie himself has said is the measuring stick as to how most players without a long track record can stay in the lineup.

2) The same old "BA's not been given a real chance" excuse. He started for three months straight in '06 and will likely also do so this year, unless Pods really turns it on. What happens if he turns out the same BA we've seen the last 3 years at the end of this season? How many at bats will it take to drop that "not given a chance" mindset? 2,000? 5,000?

3/4) BA is not individually responsible for the team's record, it's a team sport. To claim so is the most extreme brand of fanboyism. How many games this year can you say Brian individually won? Had they pulled out Sunday's game that would be #1.

Also, as I've said before I don't value outfield defense over offensive production, so my comments about his inconsistent hitting do not enhance or diminish his defensive skills, which IMO don't make that drastic a difference in the grand scheme of things. I'd think our infield defense (case in point last night) and our starters control to minimize walks mean more than a few nice catches in CF.

Call me a hater, but I am not, I just don't see the same player some of you do. While Brian is a member of the team I will cheer him and hope he does well, but what I won't do is place unrealistic expectations of him becoming much more than he is now.

soxinem1
05-27-2009, 04:42 PM
1) That is pure hypocracy. If Pods, Lillibridge or any other non-slugger has an 0-3 or 0-4 day, you guys want to run him out of town. if it's BA, "he's having an off day". And it's not the o-fer that's the problem, its the lack of any kind of quality at-bat, which Ozzie himself has said is the measuring stick as to how most players without a long track record can stay in the lineup.

First of all, I agree with many posters throwing players over a cliff over one game is silly, but quoting me and criticizing the board is a bit off base, as if you read the thread clearly, I never mentioned any of the other players.

2) The same old "BA's not been given a real chance" excuse. He started for three months straight in '06 and will likely also do so this year, unless Pods really turns it on. What happens if he turns out the same BA we've seen the last 3 years at the end of this season? How many at bats will it take to drop that "not given a chance" mindset? 2,000? 5,000?

And my point was that the team played much better with BA in the starting line up in the first half of 2006 (when they had one of the top records in the league) than it did without him starting in the second half. The team was leading the world in runs scored at the time without BA hitting, so taking the time to develop a young player in a key defensive position should have taken priority, not putting converted INF'ers in CF just to get an extra 15-20 RBI.

Again, read the thread. BA should be given the job for a year. If he gets 500 AB's and has a .229 5HR, 30 RBI line, then at least he was given the opportunity. Never did I mention making him a 6-10 year regular if it is obvious he cannot hit enough to substantiate being a regular.

3/4) BA is not individually responsible for the team's record, it's a team sport. To claim so is the most extreme brand of fanboyism. How many games this year can you say Brian individually won? Had they pulled out Sunday's game that would be #1.

Once again, I never said he won any game single-handidly, I said they played better, and he has made catches that most, if not all, of the CF 'candidates' we have trotted out there the past four season would not have. That helps the TEAM win, and keep opponents off the board.

lso, as I've said before I don't value outfield defense over offensive production, so my comments about his inconsistent hitting do not enhance or diminish his defensive skills, which IMO don't make that drastic a difference in the grand scheme of things. I'd think our infield defense (case in point last night) and our starters control to minimize walks mean more than a few nice catches in CF.

Not on a staff filled with flyball pitchers or corner OF having very limited range.

Call me a hater, but I am not, I just don't see the same player some of you do. While Brian is a member of the team I will cheer him and hope he does well, but what I won't do is place unrealistic expectations of him becoming much more than he is now.

We can't see the player when he was never given the chance to be that player. So once he gets 500 or so AB's in a season we can make that call. 700 scattered plate appearances over a few seasons does not give an accurate gauge on how that player will perform.

mzh
05-27-2009, 05:28 PM
Why hasn't Podsednik been brought up more here? He has nearly identical numbers to Brian in 1 more AB than him. His K/BB is a lot better than BA's too. Pods is a butcher in the field, but just like I think BA has never really won any games with his defense, I don't think Pods has lost any with his. Personally, I like BA over Pods, but so far they have had very similar seasons.

SoxFan1979
05-27-2009, 05:41 PM
Isn't it time Anderson had his own board/forum? I realize it would decimate the postings in the Clubhouse, but he has become an iconic figure to many and a shrine seems appropriate.

No teal, just mind bogglement.

I'm a member of a boxing forum where we have a seperate sub forum called Tyson Trash Can where everything Mike Tyson is talked about.

kittle42
05-27-2009, 05:42 PM
Why hasn't Podsednik been brought up more here? He has nearly identical numbers to Brian in 1 more AB than him. His K/BB is a lot better than BA's too. Pods is a butcher in the field, but just like I think BA has never really won any games with his defense, I don't think Pods has lost any with his. Personally, I like BA over Pods, but so far they have had very similar seasons.

*Obligatory mention of black out game where play wasn't nearly as close as dive made it seem*

Despite that, I still don't see Pods playing over Anderson on any kind of full-time basis. Podsednik is doing some good things right now - I'd ride that, but not for long.

fram40
05-27-2009, 05:46 PM
Why hasn't Podsednik been brought up more here? He has nearly identical numbers to Brian in 1 more AB than him. His K/BB is a lot better than BA's too. Pods is a butcher in the field, but just like I think BA has never really won any games with his defense, I don't think Pods has lost any with his. Personally, I like BA over Pods, but so far they have had very similar seasons.


Who plays when Q is healthy? It seems that the team expects Pods to lead off - so Pods has to play center. That would be my guess

Also - what about when Wise is healthy? He has to get a chance to reclaim his starting position, doesn't he? You are not supposed to lose your spot to injury.

jabrch
05-27-2009, 05:47 PM
*Obligatory mention of black out game where play wasn't nearly as close as dive made it seem*

Despite that, I still don't see Pods playing over Anderson on any kind of full-time basis. Podsednik is doing some good things right now - I'd ride that, but not for long.

As long as Brian can keep himself in a productive offensive zone - I'd agree with you.

voodoochile
05-27-2009, 07:01 PM
Who plays when Q is healthy? It seems that the team expects Pods to lead off - so Pods has to play center. That would be my guess

Also - what about when Wise is healthy? He has to get a chance to reclaim his starting position, doesn't he? You are not supposed to lose your spot to injury.

I think Wise is gone in favor of Pods. BA stays because he's a better defender and bats right handed.

I won't be shocked to see Pods get the nod in CF because of his ability to leadoff.

canOcorn
05-27-2009, 08:42 PM
OPS is overrated? And what do Jay Bruce and Andre Either have to do with Jordan Danks?

They all played the outfield in the minors? :shrug:

I surely hope the OP isn't trying to suggest Danks is in that class of prospect or if they are they just revealed themselves as not knowing anything about baseball.

California Sox
05-27-2009, 09:08 PM
And can we please stop penciling Danks into RF? Since when are people content with a sub .800 OPS out of a corner outfield spot?

What the heck are you talking about? Danks' OPS as a professional:

Kanny '08: 1.025
The Dash '09: .934
Birmingham '09: .956

You may not think much of him as a hitter, but yanking some random number out of nowhere proves nothing.

guillen4life13
05-27-2009, 10:53 PM
Danks was always projected to have decent power, but it never showed in college. However, it was not completely ruled out as a lost cause. If Danks becomes the leadoff hitter the Sox have wanted since '05 with plus defense to boot, I'd be fine with him playing a corner OF position, OPS be damned.

Pods was a good leadoff hitter because he took many pitches and extended counts and harassed opposing batteries once on base because he was expected to steal, while keeping a respectable .350 OBP. Remember, he didn't hit ANY homers until the postseason that year, and that was arguably his best season from a team perspective, though I'd take his 2003 from an individual perspective. I'll take a little more power and a little less SB's as long as Danks is still a legit threat to steal and can let his teammates see a lot more pitches than any other leadoff candidate.

Rickey Henderson was primarily a corner OF who had a career .820 OPS. By no stretch am I saying that I expect Danks to be as good as Rickey, but I think he would be realistically capable of putting up Ray Durham type numbers or better while playing solid OF defense. Considering the team's needs and projected assets by the time Danks starts playing regularly in the majors, I think this would be a great piece of the puzzle for many years to come.

Frankly, OPS as it relates to the defensive position is completely useless in an era when a SS (A-Rod) is likely to lead the AL in HR/RBI and it is very common to see MIF's, catchers and CF's hit 30+ HR. Arguably the premier leadoff hitter in the AL (Figgins) and premier SB threat (Crawford) play corner IF/OF and OF positions respectively. The whole position and OPS argument, at this point, has turned to complete garbage. As long as a lineup has the necessary pieces from the defensive end and the offensive end, I don't care who puts up the power numbers and the leadoff numbers as long as someone is doing it. I couldn't care less if a catcher were to be a leadoff hitter as long as he stays healthy and does both jobs adequately. That's all that should matter. It's not the individual player that matters as much as how they fit in to complete the puzzle on both ends of the field.

As it stands, the premier power prospects for the Sox come from 1B/3B (Fields), 3B/RF (Viciedo), C/1B (Flowers), and IF (Beckham).

In an ideal world, if prospects [are given the chance to] develop on both ends of the field as we hope, the best combo of defense and offense on the Sox of the future will emerge to be:

OF: some combo of Danks, Anderson, Quentin, Viciedo.
IF: some combo of Viciedo, Fields, Beckham, Ramirez, Getz, Nix
1B: Fields/Flowers
C: Flowers or someone who hasn't shown himself yet if Flowers doesn't pan out as a C.

Out of the above players, only two have shown any potential at all to be leadoff candidates. They are Danks and Getz. I think Getz is gonna need another year or two to develop into a regular MLB caliber guy if it is going to happen--similar to Crede and Rowand. Nix could end up being a Graffanino/Ozuna/Cintron type player, though he still has another year or two window before you can call him a bust. Fields' window is starting to close, so he had better turn it on soon. Anderson needs to keep it up if he wants to be considered in the long term plans for this team. Viciedo is only 21 and it's very possible he will not be a factor for another 2+ years. Flowers is still young also. I don't expect Beckham to be a real factor until next year at the earliest. As Ozzie said, the Sox will be in real trouble if Beckham is up with the big club playing every day. That means that all other options would have failed. Danks has a few years to develop, though if he keeps raking, it's very possible we will see him get part time work when the rosters expand.

I haven't seen enough games this season due to my schedule and not having been in Chicago too much, so I can't directly comment on BA's swing or anything like that, but he is a proven commodity on defense and there has never been any question about his offensive potential. From the numbers (take that at face value), it almost seems like he would be a decent candidate to lead off, as he is a decent baserunner and has been getting on base at a very respectable clip.

Frater Perdurabo
05-27-2009, 11:32 PM
Brian Anderson is to Russ99 what Konerko is to Frater.

You will have to dig a long way back to sometime last season to find a thread where I rip Konerko.

But anytime a BA thread or post is made, some "BA haters" (for lack of a better term) jump all over him and all the so-called "FOBA."

When will the "BA haters" ever forgive BA for his struggles during his first 500 MLB ABs? What does he have to do to get you to stop calling for him to be replaced at the first possible moment? Hit .400? Hit 80 homers? Stop killing your puppies?

doublem23
05-28-2009, 12:16 AM
When will the "BA haters" ever forgive BA for his struggles during his first 500 MLB ABs? What does he have to do to get you to stop calling for him to be replaced at the first possible moment? Hit .400? Hit 80 homers? Stop killing your puppies?

Who the hell ever calls for him to be replaced? Most of us realize that on this roster, BA is clearly the best CF option, but you'd have to be kidding if you're suggesting the Sox couldn't make a significant upgrade at CF.

kittle42
05-28-2009, 12:18 AM
Who the hell ever calls for him to be replaced? Most of us realize that on this roster, BA is clearly the best CF option, but you'd have to be kidding if you're suggesting the Sox couldn't make a significant upgrade at CF.

Eh, there are some people making some pretty silly suggestions about CF. I expect they'll end once Pods starts consistently playing like the washed-up player he is.

It's Dankerific
05-28-2009, 04:45 AM
Why hasn't Podsednik been brought up more here? He has nearly identical numbers to Brian in 1 more AB than him. His K/BB is a lot better than BA's too. Pods is a butcher in the field, but just like I think BA has never really won any games with his defense, I don't think Pods has lost any with his. Personally, I like BA over Pods, but so far they have had very similar seasons.

He certainly did. When BA was still "rehabbing" and Pods was dropping "triples".

Whitesoxfan23
05-28-2009, 04:55 AM
BA is the most overrated player by Sox fans on the team. His defense is awesome, but at the plate he's probably never going to be anything special. The Sox could use an upgrade in a big way.

Frater Perdurabo
05-28-2009, 07:21 AM
BA is the most overrated player by Sox fans on the team. His defense is awesome, but at the plate he's probably never going to be anything special. The Sox could use an upgrade in a big way.

So a .274 average isn't good enough for you? :scratch:

Well, I guess you need to replace 3/4ths of the position players, since all but three have sub-.274 batting averages.

I'd love to have Torii Hunter in CF, but he's not available.

If I'm looking to improve the team, I would focus on third base, since Fields and Betemit can't hit OR play defense.

Whitesoxfan23
05-28-2009, 08:19 AM
So a .274 average isn't good enough for you? :scratch:

Well, I guess you need to replace 3/4ths of the position players, since all but three have sub-.274 batting averages.

I'd love to have Torii Hunter in CF, but he's not available.

If I'm looking to improve the team, I would focus on third base, since Fields and Betemit can't hit OR play defense.


I agree with you 100% about Fields. He is hurting our team worse than anybody. He isn't good at defense and he is terrible at the plate. I hope Josh Fields is not on our team next season. I hear Beltre is a Free Agent after this season. Any chance KW will make a move for him?

jabrch
05-28-2009, 08:31 AM
I agree with you 100% about Fields. He is hurting our team worse than anybody. He isn't good at defense and he is terrible at the plate. I hope Josh Fields is not on our team next season. I hear Beltre is a Free Agent after this season. Any chance KW will make a move for him?

I hope Fields is with the club next year - it would (hopefully) mean he came around and hit more like he did his first trip up to the bigs, not like now.

I have no interest in paying FA money/years to Beltre with the depth we have at 3B down on the farm. I really hope Fields can be adequate - the same hope I have for all Sox prospects.

That being said, right now he is much more a problem than BA in 2009.

34 Inch Stick
05-28-2009, 10:35 AM
. I hear Beltre is a Free Agent after this season. Any chance KW will make a move for him?

I have a sneaking suspicion Williams is going to make a hard push for Figgins who will be a FA.

Craig Grebeck
05-28-2009, 11:03 AM
I hope Fields is with the club next year - it would (hopefully) mean he came around and hit more like he did his first trip up to the bigs, not like now.

I have no interest in paying FA money/years to Beltre with the depth we have at 3B down on the farm. I really hope Fields can be adequate - the same hope I have for all Sox prospects.

That being said, right now he is much more a problem than BA in 2009.
What depth on the farm? Beckham should be ticketed for the middle infield and Viciedo is not going to stick at 3rd?

doublem23
05-28-2009, 11:33 AM
What depth on the farm? Beckham should be ticketed for the middle infield and Viciedo is not going to stick at 3rd?

Just because Viciedo doesn't project to have a long, lasting career at third doesn't mean he can't handle the position for a few years, especially since he's only 20. The natural comparison is Miguel Cabrera, who was able to play the position in his early 20's, too.

You guys are making third base sound like it's defensively as difficult as shortstop or center field.

Craig Grebeck
05-28-2009, 12:03 PM
Just because Viciedo doesn't project to have a long, lasting career at third doesn't mean he can't handle the position for a few years, especially since he's only 20. The natural comparison is Miguel Cabrera, who was able to play the position in his early 20's, too.

You guys are making third base sound like it's defensively as difficult as shortstop or center field.
I'd rather not have a guy with fall-down range at 3rd base. Is it as important as up-the-middle? No. But the commonly accepted defensive spectrum does make third far more important than 1B, LF, and RF.

Taliesinrk
05-28-2009, 10:59 PM
I'd rather not have a guy with fall-down range at 3rd base. Is it as important as up-the-middle? No. But the commonly accepted defensive spectrum does make third far more important than 1B, LF, and RF.

I agree with the first two. Is it commonly accepted that it's more important than RF?

Frater Perdurabo
05-28-2009, 11:01 PM
I agree with the first two. Is it commonly accepted that it's more important than RF?

The third baseman likely will handle more balls in a given game than a right fielder will.

canOcorn
05-28-2009, 11:34 PM
What depth on the farm? Beckham should be ticketed for the middle infield and Viciedo is not going to stick at 3rd?

Consider the source.

The OP would love if KW traded for Beltre if that's what KW decided to do and he'd also love if we stayed with Fields or traded Fields for Bobby Scales if that's what KW decided was the best move. We're not GM's so any moves are not questionable because you're not and never have been a GM. :rolleyes:

Taliesinrk
05-29-2009, 07:24 AM
The third baseman likely will handle more balls in a given game than a right fielder will.

I'm not saying I disagree here... I'm just curious as to what the order is - however, using your logic, the first baseman would be one of the top 3 defensive positions on the field. I know that this isn't the case.

MisterB
05-29-2009, 11:20 AM
I'm not saying I disagree here... I'm just curious as to what the order is - however, using your logic, the first baseman would be one of the top 3 defensive positions on the field. I know that this isn't the case.

The typical defensive spectrum in the "live ball" era (assuming you don't limit defense to just fielding), from most to least important is:

P - C - SS - 2B - CF - 3B - RF - LF - 1B

There can be arguments made that right now the order has changed somewhat, in that these days teams are far more likely to sacrifice defense for offense in the midrange of the spectrum (2B/CF/3B).

First base is considered the easiest because, despite the sheer number of plays that involve first base, catching a thrown ball is significantly easier than fielding a batted ball.

doublem23
05-29-2009, 11:41 AM
First base is considered the easiest because, despite the sheer number of plays that involve first base, catching a thrown ball is significantly easier than fielding a batted ball.

:walnuts
You've obviously never played in the same infield with Jose Valentin.

ode to veeck
05-29-2009, 12:52 PM
:walnuts
You've obviously never played in the same infield with Jose Valentin.

LMAO, but we loved Manos as one of our immortals

doublem23
05-29-2009, 12:57 PM
LMAO, but we loved Manos as one of our immortals

If we were to make a Mt. WSImore, I have no doubt the four faces carved would be Valentin, Brian Anderson, Mark Buehrle (in a Cardinals hat), and Ozzie holding up the World Series trophy.

spawn
05-29-2009, 12:59 PM
If we were to make a Mt. WSImore, I have no doubt the four faces carved would be Valentin, Brian Anderson, Mark Buehrle (in a Cardinals hat), and Ozzie holding up the World Series trophy.
What?!?! No Aaron Rowand?!?!

ode to veeck
05-29-2009, 01:07 PM
If we were to make a Mt. WSImore, I have no doubt the four faces carved would be Valentin, Brian Anderson, Mark Buehrle (in a Cardinals hat), and Ozzie holding up the World Series trophy.

I like BA but he is not one of the immortals at this point

Ozzie, Burlymon, and Manos, absolutely

doublem23
05-29-2009, 01:12 PM
I like BA but he is not one of the immortals at this point

Maybe it'll be one of those 1/2 face things they do; Briaron Rowanderson. :dunno:

Eddo144
05-29-2009, 01:21 PM
The typical defensive spectrum in the "live ball" era (assuming you don't limit defense to just fielding), from most to least important is:

P - C - SS - 2B - CF - 3B - RF - LF - 1B

There can be arguments made that right now the order has changed somewhat, in that these days teams are far more likely to sacrifice defense for offense in the midrange of the spectrum (2B/CF/3B).

First base is considered the easiest because, despite the sheer number of plays that involve first base, catching a thrown ball is significantly easier than fielding a batted ball.
Actually, I believe CF has been considered a more defense-oriented position than 2B for quite some time now. And lately, I've read (at Fangraphs, I believe), that 2B and 3B are basically at the same level now, in terms of players actually used at those positions.

voodoochile
05-29-2009, 01:30 PM
Actually, I believe CF has been considered a more defense-oriented position than 2B for quite some time now. And lately, I've read (at Fangraphs, I believe), that 2B and 3B are basically at the same level now, in terms of players actually used at those positions.

The game is becoming increasingly offense oriented due to recent trends (PEDs, smaller stadiums, harder baseballs, lack of pitching depth). The days of the all field no hit player at "defensive positions" are all but gone...

doublem23
05-29-2009, 01:33 PM
The game is becoming increasingly offense oriented due to recent trends (PEDs, smaller stadiums, harder baseballs, lack of pitching depth). The days of the all field no hit player at "defensive positions" are all but gone...

I don't know, the Red Sox as recently as 2006 paid a hefty price for Doug Mirabelli, a 35-year-old who would hit .191 that season just because he was one of the few catchers who could catch Tim Wakefield's knuckleball.

voodoochile
05-29-2009, 01:36 PM
I don't know, the Red Sox as recently as 2006 paid a hefty price for Doug Mirabelli, a 35-year-old who would hit .191 that season just because he was one of the few catchers who could catch Tim Wakefield's knuckleball.

Catcher remains the exception to the new style and rightfully so. You don't pick pitchers based on their ability to hit either...

ode to veeck
05-29-2009, 01:39 PM
Catcher remains the exception to the new style and rightfully so. You don't pick pitchers based on their ability to hit either...

unless he's Babe Ruth birthday boy

voodoochile
05-29-2009, 01:44 PM
unless he's Babe Ruth birthday boy

No, then you move him to the OF and find a new pitcher... I seem to recall that happening with some guy named... wow what a coincidence...:tongue:

Rohan
05-29-2009, 01:57 PM
Maybe it'll be one of those 1/2 face things they do; Briaron Rowanderson. :dunno:

That's it.. I'm naming my first kid Briaron.

ode to veeck
05-29-2009, 02:30 PM
That's it.. I'm naming my first kid Briaron.

add a middle name: Ozpodsaballo

Taliesinrk
05-29-2009, 03:17 PM
add a middle name: Ozpodsaballo

Forgive me for being slow, but "ballo"???

ode to veeck
05-29-2009, 03:19 PM
Forgive me for being slow, but "ballo"???

Caballo

DSpivack
05-29-2009, 03:21 PM
Forgive me for being slow, but "ballo"???

As in El Caballo.

Frater Perdurabo
05-29-2009, 10:22 PM
:walnuts
You've obviously never played in the same infield with Jose Valentin.

:walnuts
Royce Clayton was the best shortstop I ever played with.
I liked it that put the ball in his pocket and spared me the pain of having to catch it; it made it easier to adjust the velcro on my batting gloves between swings!

Tragg
05-30-2009, 12:05 AM
:walnuts
Royce Clayton was the best shortstop I ever played with.
I liked it that put the ball in his pocket and spared me the pain of having to catch it; it made it easier to adjust the velcro on my batting gloves between swings!

You'll never forgive that quote just like I will never get past "Erstad is a .400 hitter"...
:gulp:

Frater Perdurabo
05-30-2009, 10:36 AM
You'll never forgive that quote just like I will never get past "Erstad is a .400 hitter"...
:gulp:

Forgiven? Yes. But not forgotten. But it's all in good fun now. :tongue:

And I agree with you about the Erstad quote, too.