PDA

View Full Version : 233 vs. 36


tsoxman
05-25-2009, 07:35 PM
The former is the combined RBI total of Swisher, Cabrera, Crede and Uribe from last season, over 25% of our total amount of runs scored from last season. The 36 is the combined RBI total of Lilibridge, Betemit, Fields and Getz. Perhaps the comparison is unfair because the latter category is comprised of part time players, but the point is still valid and worth noting...when you remove run producers from the lineup, you cannot just plug in anybody an assume their production is replaced.

Say what you want about the slumps of Quentin and Ramirez this year...say what you want about how much of a pain in the ass Cabrera and Swisher were last year, the fact remains that Kenny did not replace the production of the guys he got rid of this last off season.

soltrain21
05-25-2009, 07:43 PM
The former is the combined RBI total of Swisher, Cabrera, Crede and Uribe from last season, over 25% of our total amount of runs scored from last season. The 36 is the combined RBI total of Lilibridge, Betemit, Fields and Getz. Perhaps the comparison is unfair because the latter category is comprised of part time players, but the point is still valid and worth noting...when you remove run producers from the lineup, you cannot just plug in anybody an assume their production is replaced.

Say what you want about the slumps of Quentin and Ramirez this year...say what you want about how much of a pain in the ass Cabrera and Swisher were last year, the fact remains that Kenny did not replace the production of the guys he got rid of this last off season.

While I understand your point, I fail to see why I should be shocked that the total RBIs from four players last year for a full year is far greater than the total RBI totals from four guys 40 games in.

We could blame it on Quentin, who currently has over 25 less home runs than he did last year!

NDSox12
05-25-2009, 07:44 PM
Perhaps the comparison is unfair because the latter category is comprised of part time players, but the point is still valid and worth noting...when you remove run producers from the lineup, you cannot just plug in anybody an assume their production is replaced.

What is really unfair about the comparison is that you are using full season stats vs. two month stats. Not that your point isn't valid, but the numbers are totally misleading.

guillen4life13
05-25-2009, 08:01 PM
You may make a slightly valid point, but as has been said, it is VERY misleading.

DumpJerry
05-25-2009, 08:04 PM
Selective comparison makes your point meaningless. You are comparing two Full-time and two-part-time players (one of whom is already back in AAA) to four full-time players. This is a perfect definition of a strawman argument.

That' like saying that the Sox reduced by 100% the number of home runs hit by their pitchers when they traded Jon Garland.

Brian26
05-25-2009, 08:13 PM
Meanwhile, Nick Swisher is not just falling back to earth, he's crash-landing. He's reached base five times safely in his last 43 at-bats, and his average is down to .225.

TDog
05-25-2009, 08:23 PM
The former is the combined RBI total of Swisher, Cabrera, Crede and Uribe from last season, over 25% of our total amount of runs scored from last season. The 36 is the combined RBI total of Lilibridge, Betemit, Fields and Getz. Perhaps the comparison is unfair because the latter category is comprised of part time players, but the point is still valid and worth noting...when you remove run producers from the lineup, you cannot just plug in anybody an assume their production is replaced. ....

Man, I hear ya. But this is nothing new. When Williams let Frank Thomas go, he replaced him with Jim Thome who has only 118 home runs in a White Sox uniform. Frank Thomas hit 448 home runs with the White Sox. With that sort of a disparity at DH, it's no wonder the White Sox haven't been to the World Series since Thomas was let go.

Of course, your comparsions are totally meaningless. Crede simply was done in Chicago, but I would have had no problem with keeping Uribe, which was by far a bigger loss to the team than Swisher. I had no problem with Cabrera, although ultimately replacing him with Getz may prove to benefit the Sox.

It really doesn't matter what the Sox got for Nick Swisher. Not having him on the team was the very necessary point to the deal that moved him.

Bobby Thigpen
05-25-2009, 08:27 PM
Why are some Sox fans so incredibly obsessed with some of the team's former players?

Geez, just think how much better that group would be if they had Rowand too. :rolleyes:

gobears1987
05-25-2009, 08:28 PM
Meanwhile, Nick Swisher is not just falling back to earth, he's crash-landing. He's reached base five times safely in his last 43 at-bats, and his average is down to .225.Don't worry, he's going to be the Yankees 5th starter soon.

BadBobbyJenks
05-25-2009, 09:07 PM
I read the title and I thought this thread was about a motorcycle or something. What is going on in here?

Zakath
05-25-2009, 09:20 PM
The four former players have 65 RBI for their current teams.

Swisher's must be taken with a grain of salt, given the 75 mph winds blowing pop flies out of Yankee Stadium...

tsoxman
05-25-2009, 09:45 PM
What is really unfair about the comparison is that you are using full season stats vs. two month stats. Not that your point isn't valid, but the numbers are totally misleading.

No not true...the RBI totals are all from last year, not this year.

tsoxman
05-25-2009, 09:49 PM
Why are some Sox fans so incredibly obsessed with some of the team's former players?

Geez, just think how much better that group would be if they had Rowand too. :rolleyes:

I could give a rat's ass about who is playing on the team. And no, I am not obsessed with Rowand or Crede or Swisher or Carbrera. My point is that this team struggled enough last season with scoring particularly in the second half of the season...No take away 25% of the run production without replacing it, you will end up with a 90+ loss team.

delben91
05-25-2009, 10:27 PM
The former is the combined RBI total of Swisher, Cabrera, Crede and Uribe from last season, over 25% of our total amount of runs scored from last season. The 36 is the combined RBI total of Lilibridge, Betemit, Fields and Getz. Perhaps the comparison is unfair because the latter category is comprised of part time players, but the point is still valid and worth noting...when you remove run producers from the lineup, you cannot just plug in anybody an assume their production is replaced.

Say what you want about the slumps of Quentin and Ramirez this year...say what you want about how much of a pain in the ass Cabrera and Swisher were last year, the fact remains that Kenny did not replace the production of the guys he got rid of this last off season.

3 of these 4 spent nearly all of last season either injured or in the minor leagues. I get your point, but concluding it with this argument is ridiculous.

jabrch
05-25-2009, 10:42 PM
you will end up with a 90+ loss team.


I don't see this team losing 90+ games unless we continue to suffer injuries and underperformance. I just don't see it. If you do, that's your perrogative. It may happen - ya never know. I just don't see it.

doublem23
05-25-2009, 11:21 PM
This is the first time I've had to bust this tag out in years.

:threadblows:

NDSox12
05-25-2009, 11:32 PM
No not true...the RBI totals are all from last year, not this year.

Well, in that case, your numbers REALLY don't make any sense to me. How is it relevant when only one of those guys was on a MLB roster for most of last season? Or are you suggesting we shouldn't be giving that many young guys a shot?

SoxGirl4Life
05-25-2009, 11:33 PM
I read the title and I thought this thread was about a motorcycle or something. What is going on in here?

:lol:

Britt Burns
05-26-2009, 10:53 AM
233, 236, whatever it takes...

SSrep
05-26-2009, 11:06 AM
The former is the combined RBI total of Swisher, Cabrera, Crede and Uribe from last season, over 25% of our total amount of runs scored from last season. The 36 is the combined RBI total of Lilibridge, Betemit, Fields and Getz. Perhaps the comparison is unfair because the latter category is comprised of part time players, but the point is still valid and worth noting...when you remove run producers from the lineup, you cannot just plug in anybody an assume their production is replaced.

Say what you want about the slumps of Quentin and Ramirez this year...say what you want about how much of a pain in the ass Cabrera and Swisher were last year, the fact remains that Kenny did not replace the production of the guys he got rid of this last off season.

If you're not comparing apples to apples...a comparison won't make sense

kittle42
05-26-2009, 11:13 AM
233, 236, whatever it takes...

Schooner Tuna?

esbrechtel
05-26-2009, 11:23 AM
Meanwhile, Nick Swisher is not just falling back to earth, he's crash-landing. He's reached base five times safely in his last 43 at-bats, and his average is down to .225.

:lol:...where are all the Swisher apologists now?

jabrch
05-26-2009, 11:52 AM
=say what you want about how much of a pain in the ass Cabrera and Swisher were last year, the fact remains that Kenny did not replace the production of the guys he got rid of this last off season.

Swisher's production last year kinda sucked. I don't think we are worse off due to not having his production in the lineup. And many of Swish's ABs were at 1B, where he is replaced by Paul Konerko - who is performing quite well.

OC got replaced by Getz. We knew that was a dropoff. But the **** if you are going to tell us the reason we are where we are is the difference between OC and Getz. Come on...that's just silly.

Look at #2 - #5 in our rotation. That's where we are not the same. The offensive production lost from Cabrerra and Swisher, replaced by Getz and whomever plays CF and 1b for Swish is not our problem in the slightest.

KW banked on Gavin and John to perform equal or better than last year. That was a reasonable risk for a GM to take. So far, he's on the wrong end of it. Not his fault I don't think - that was a reasonable choice that I think most GMs would have made. He also had his "plan a" with Jose and Bart being OK in the #4/#5. That one has gone 50/50 in my eyes. Bartolo is fine. He's done his thing ok for a #5. Jose, however, has been awful. Clayton has looked very good in his last two starts. Will he be that "plan b" that we need?

Want to piss on KW? Fine... He took a chance that Wise/BA/Owens would be able to be OK in CF. Looks like he might have been right - BA is doing a nice job if he can keep it up over the course of a season. Want to piss on KW more? He bet on Danks and Floyd to repeat - they have not done so yet. Jose - he didn't have much a choice but to try that. Bart? Great move for what it cost and for what the risk was.

Why not just put the blame where it belongs...the guys between the white lines... Not guillen, not Walk, not Coop, not KW. Guys who are capable of performing are not. It really is that simple.

voodoochile
05-26-2009, 12:04 PM
Swisher's production last year kinda sucked. I don't think we are worse off due to not having his production in the lineup. And many of Swish's ABs were at 1B, where he is replaced by Paul Konerko - who is performing quite well.

OC got replaced by Getz. We knew that was a dropoff. But the **** if you are going to tell us the reason we are where we are is the difference between OC and Getz. Come on...that's just silly.

Look at #2 - #5 in our rotation. That's where we are not the same. The offensive production lost from Cabrerra and Swisher, replaced by Getz and whomever plays CF and 1b for Swish is not our problem in the slightest.

KW banked on Gavin and John to perform equal or better than last year. That was a reasonable risk for a GM to take. So far, he's on the wrong end of it. Not his fault I don't think - that was a reasonable choice that I think most GMs would have made. He also had his "plan a" with Jose and Bart being OK in the #4/#5. That one has gone 50/50 in my eyes. Bartolo is fine. He's done his thing ok for a #5. Jose, however, has been awful. Clayton has looked very good in his last two starts. Will he be that "plan b" that we need?

Want to piss on KW? Fine... He took a chance that Wise/BA/Owens would be able to be OK in CF. Looks like he might have been right - BA is doing a nice job if he can keep it up over the course of a season. Want to piss on KW more? He bet on Danks and Floyd to repeat - they have not done so yet. Jose - he didn't have much a choice but to try that. Bart? Great move for what it cost and for what the risk was.

Why not just put the blame where it belongs...the guys between the white lines... Not guillen, not Walk, not Coop, not KW. Guys who are capable of performing are not. It really is that simple.

All of the pre-season potential "problem areas" on the team had depth too. He didn't just have Getz. He had Getz, Lillibridge and Nix. He didn't just have BA. He had Wise and Owens. He didn't just have Bartolo and Jose. He had Richard and Broadway and even Poreda. The sole area he didn't have good depth at was 3B but even there he had Betemit and now Nix (and some might even say he had Viciedo) to step in. Yes, Betemit has proven to be a defensive black hole, so the depth at 3rd turned into vapor. However, the rest of the depth has played out well with Nix doing good work when called on and Richard stepping in well for Jose when he faltered. The depth in CF got wasted by injuries, but that's not something you count on and his signing of Pods when he became available has turned out to be a great move.

If you're going to fault KW for failing to see the problems, at least give him credit for having potential answers in place in case he was wrong. Jury remains out on Getz and Fields, but they are showing signs of life again recently and all of a sudden if TCQ is healthy the Sox have an embarassment of riches in the OF.

As jabrch pointed out, it will come down to how the players perform between the white lines and maybe a move or two from KW along the way.

tsoxman
05-26-2009, 10:25 PM
All of the pre-season potential "problem areas" on the team had depth too. He didn't just have Getz. He had Getz, Lillibridge and Nix. He didn't just have BA. He had Wise and Owens. He didn't just have Bartolo and Jose. He had Richard and Broadway and even Poreda. The sole area he didn't have good depth at was 3B but even there he had Betemit and now Nix (and some might even say he had Viciedo) to step in. Yes, Betemit has proven to be a defensive black hole, so the depth at 3rd turned into vapor. However, the rest of the depth has played out well with Nix doing good work when called on and Richard stepping in well for Jose when he faltered. The depth in CF got wasted by injuries, but that's not something you count on and his signing of Pods when he became available has turned out to be a great move.

If you're going to fault KW for failing to see the problems, at least give him credit for having potential answers in place in case he was wrong. Jury remains out on Getz and Fields, but they are showing signs of life again recently and all of a sudden if TCQ is healthy the Sox have an embarassment of riches in the OF.

As jabrch pointed out, it will come down to how the players perform between the white lines and maybe a move or two from KW along the way.

What is your defintion of depth? Just because you have 'warm bodies' that can occupy certain positions on the field does not mean in any way they will be competent. The examples that you point out such as Lillibridge, Nix, Owens, Betemit were never very good, so why would KW assume that by magic they will transform themselves into anything else?

voodoochile
05-27-2009, 12:07 AM
What is your defintion of depth? Just because you have 'warm bodies' that can occupy certain positions on the field does not mean in any way they will be competent. The examples that you point out such as Lillibridge, Nix, Owens, Betemit were never very good, so why would KW assume that by magic they will transform themselves into anything else?

Let's take it position by position for the 4 positions that were question marks entering the season (CF, 2B, 3B and SP)...

CF: Obviously KW was correct that between the three players I mentioned, the position would be fine. Who cares if Owens failed? BA and Wise (though he had a very brief stay) proved effective. Albeit Wise didn't show much until he was dropped in the order and then he only had a few days to play before getting injured. BA has been fine when healthy. Again, Owens sucked, but give KW credit here, he didn't stick with him. He cut him twice and went and found someone who could help the team. Certainly the depth this year in CF has been fine and over all had solid production - probably more than people were counting on.

2B: Jury's still out on Getz, but he hasn't been horrible for a first year player. He's hitting .250. He's stolen a few bases. He had a decent run as a leadoff hitter for a few weeks when they needed him to. He seems to be finding a rhythm again at the bottom of the order. Of the other options, one has been fine - Nix. He's proven to be a solid backup. He's good defensively. He entered tonight with an OPS of .692 (obviously that will be going up). They've both been excellent defensively.

3B: I've already admitted the depth here is lacking. Hopefully Josh continues to turn it around. It's the biggest blackhole on the team from both perspectives. If not there's still the chance that Getz will be fine at 2B and Nix can take over at 3rd.

SP: Can't really argue with KW here. He was 100% correct in his assessment of the depth. Richard has proven more than adequate as a backup to Jose and Colon is doing a good job as a #5. We haven't even gotten to Broadway yet but he's been solid in the pen too.

So, yeah, some of the guys who were counted on as backup haven't panned out, but you don't need them ALL to pan out, just one. In 3 out of 4 positions that's been the case. So if you want to nitpick about the failures, be my guest. I'll take the successes as a sign that the plan is working. Maybe not as fast as we would like. Maybe not as efficiently as could be hoped, but over all, you can't really fault the situation. Most of the problems this team has struggled with this year have been injury related and the fact that Danks and Floyd got off to rough starts hasn't helped, but right now things seem to be moving in the right direction and some of that is directly due to the depth KW started the season with...

kaufsox
05-27-2009, 10:16 AM
No not true...the RBI totals are all from last year, not this year.


Oh, in that case, you're making a very foolish argument.

bigdommer
05-27-2009, 01:15 PM
I am sure that KW fully expected production to dropoff by switching from Crede/Uribe to Fields, Swisher to BA/Wise, and OC to Getz. The changes had less to do with production and more to do with money. The money saved was spent on Jenks ($5MM raise), Viciedo ($4MM bonus + $1MM salary), Colon ($1-3 MM), and Floyd's extension. Obviously, some of this money came from trading Vazquez too. The Sox are also going to have to pay Danks, Quentin, and Fields over the next couple of years.