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LITTLE NELL
05-24-2009, 07:25 PM
As of this moment in the AL the Sox are:
13th in batting average
14th in runs
13th in OBP
12th in slugging
12th in OPS
13th in fielding pct.
9th in ERA
Maybe stats do lie, this team should be 10 games under .500 instead of only 5.

tsoxman
05-24-2009, 07:30 PM
As of this moment in the AL the Sox are:
13th in batting average
14th in runs
13th in OBP
12th in slugging
12th in OPS
13th in fielding pct.
9th in ERA
Maybe stats do lie, this team should be 10 games under .500 instead of only 5.

The first six of these stats will tell you that the Peavy deal is a waste of time, and resources and that Kenny is in extreme denial regarding this team. It would take moure than Peavy to fix this mess.

LITTLE NELL
05-24-2009, 07:33 PM
The first six of these stats will tell you that the Peavy deal is a waste of time, and resources and that Kenny is in extreme denial regarding this team. It would take moure than Peavy to fix this mess.
I was thinking the exact same thing on Thurs while waiting on Peavy's decision.

russ99
05-24-2009, 07:39 PM
The first six of these stats will tell you that the Peavy deal is a waste of time, and resources and that Kenny is in extreme denial regarding this team. It would take moure than Peavy to fix this mess.

Well, injuries to Dye, Thome and Quentin have knocked the power numbers down. It seems Kenny thinks those guys will make a difference when healthy and the other hitters on the club can turn things around. It's obvious that we're one pitcher short of a decent rotation, despite Richard's nice outing and I can't knock Kenny for making a heck of an effort to acquire a difference-maker.

But if it were up to me, Walker would have been canned last weekend...if not much earlier.

Tragg
05-24-2009, 07:42 PM
The first six of these stats will tell you that the Peavy deal is a waste of time, and resources and that Kenny is in extreme denial regarding this team. It would take moure than Peavy to fix this mess.
I would say that those stats are some of the reasons why I'm glad the deal didn't go through.
If Williams wants to trade our young prospects for an established starter, he'll have numerous other opportunities. I hope he doesn't.

Chicken Dinner
05-24-2009, 07:43 PM
And there's only 14 teams in the AL. :whiner:

WhiteSox5187
05-24-2009, 07:44 PM
I would say that those stats are some of the reasons why I'm glad the deal didn't go through.
If Williams wants to trade our young prospects for an established starter, he'll have numerous other opportunities. I hope he doesn't.

As have been said before, I'm much more worried about this team's complete inability to hit rather than our pitching.

Frater Perdurabo
05-24-2009, 08:03 PM
The first six of these stats will tell you that the Peavy deal is a waste of time, and resources and that Kenny is in extreme denial regarding this team. It would take moure than Peavy to fix this mess.

Going into the year, in addition to needing regular "average" production from Dye, Paulie, Thome, AJ, Quentin and Alexei, we needed two of these three "uncertains" to produce at the plate: CF, 3B, 2B. Until recently, Thome and Alexei have underperformed. Quentin, Getz and Fields had nice Aprils but bad Mays, and BA - who had been producing - missed the first half of May. So the whole formula has not come together at any point yet.

Going forward, we need:

A healthy, productive Quentin
Better defense at third base
Better hitting from Josh Fields
Better hitting from Chris Getz

Quentin needs to figure it out on his own (it's not like Walker is going to help him); we need his RBI production desperately. If not, then hopefully BA can keep producing like he has, making Pods a semi-acceptable downgrade (due to his speed) in LF. If Pods then falters, perhaps Wise can be at least passable in LF.

After that, either Getz or Fields needs to produce. Perhaps their struggles are motivating KW to have Beckham pick up innings at 3B and 2B. If both Getz and Fields continue struggling, then I'd put Beckham at third, as he at least would improve the defense there. Then we let Getz hit ninth.

Frater Perdurabo
05-24-2009, 08:05 PM
Put the offensive offense aside for a moment, however.

Peavy - or any other ace-caliber starting pitcher (or even a solid veteran #2 or #3) would improve this rotation. One can never got wrong adding an experienced winner to the rotation.

captainclutch24
05-24-2009, 09:41 PM
The first six of these stats will tell you that the Peavy deal is a waste of time, and resources and that Kenny is in extreme denial regarding this team. It would take moure than Peavy to fix this mess.

I was thinking the exact same thing on Thurs while waiting on Peavy's decision.

Put the offensive offense aside for a moment, however.

Peavy - or any other ace-caliber starting pitcher (or even a solid veteran #2 or #3) would improve this rotation. One can never got wrong adding an experienced winner to the rotation.

That was exactly my point in the thread I made on the Peavy trade. He would have made our rotation better, but offensivley it was the same situation for him.

TDog
05-24-2009, 09:46 PM
As have been said before, I'm much more worried about this team's complete inability to hit rather than our pitching.

I'm more worried about the pitching and the lack of defense at third base. A team with great pitching and little hitting is more likely to have a great season than a team with great hitting and struggling pitching.

DSpivack
05-24-2009, 09:55 PM
I'm more worried about the pitching and the lack of defense at third base. A team with great pitching and little hitting is more likely to have a great season than a team with great hitting and struggling pitching.

But relatively, the hitting is having much bigger problems than the pitching.

doublem23
05-24-2009, 10:01 PM
The first six of these stats will tell you that the Peavy deal is a waste of time, and resources and that Kenny is in extreme denial regarding this team. It would take moure than Peavy to fix this mess.

Perhaps acquiring a guy with 4 years left on his contract wasn't just meant for a stab at this season?

doublem23
05-24-2009, 10:05 PM
FWIW, in 2005...

11th in BA
11th in OBP
7th in SLG
8th in OPS
9th in R

Offense is nice, but it's not the critical element to a winning team.

Noneck
05-24-2009, 10:07 PM
Looking at the hitting stats the players with a track record are hitting as expected. (PK, JD, AJ and Thome) The problem is counting on players
without a proven track record and they don't perform.

Flight #24
05-24-2009, 10:34 PM
IMO Kenny's relying on guys getting back into form. This also involves Q and TCM playing more like last year. The pitching is the bigger concern long-term, and pitching is what drives titles the most. Adding a #1 SP and developing a dominant rotation is the surest way to get to another ring. Plus, the Sox have some position prospects in the minors who IMO are better bets to contribute than most of the pitchers (IMO pitchers are a much greater crapshoot than hitters).

CashMan
05-24-2009, 10:48 PM
Adding a #1 SP and developing a dominant rotation is the surest way to get to another ring.


I do not think Peavy is a #1 in the AL, maybe a #2. I was all for the trade, because I would rather watch Peavy pitch than Richards/Colon/Jose. Richards has had back to back starts that have been good. I think Richards can and will be a solid #3 in the coming years. I do not want to see any more Jose, but since he is getting paid so much, I am sure he will be back with the team soon.

SoxGirl4Life
05-24-2009, 10:50 PM
imo, the Peavy move was not a rent a player situation to patch up the staff this year. A solid 1-4 in place this year would give Kenny alot of room to bring in another legit starter in the next off-season.

Tragg
05-24-2009, 11:05 PM
In the next 2 years, the Sox will have the following openings:
Catcher
DH
1B
RF
And that's IF Fields, Getz, Alexei and Anderson can assume full-time roles.
Plus 1 or 2 positions on the rotation and several in the pen.

Peavy or the veteran starter of your choice fills one of the above, creates another hole (if Richard/Poreda are dealt) and would undoubtedly also take some of the pieces that we hope will fill other holes.

The blockbuster I'd hope we'd look to make is for US to trade a top notch player for real haul of young talent....not utility infielders, but talent.

jabrch
05-24-2009, 11:05 PM
I do not think Peavy is a #1 in the AL, maybe a #2. I was all for the trade, because I would rather watch Peavy pitch than Richards/Colon/Jose. Richards has had back to back starts that have been good. I think Richards can and will be a solid #3 in the coming years. I do not want to see any more Jose, but since he is getting paid so much, I am sure he will be back with the team soon.

So you can name 14 AL starters you'd rather have than Jake Peavy?

Your grapes are awful sour.

TDog
05-24-2009, 11:07 PM
But relatively, the hitting is having much bigger problems than the pitching.

I don't think so, but it's hard to separate the pitching from the hitting. Josh Fields has been a problem, but his defense (and his effect on the pitching) has been a bigger problem than his hitting. A slumping Joe Crede with a good back or a Juan Uribe might be hitting as poorly as Fields is, but they would still be contributing.

People whine about how the pitchers are under so much pressure because the hitters aren't hitting. But when the pitchers give up a bunch of runs in the early innings (Fields' lack of defense was instrumental in the magnitude of Thursday's loss, but the pitching still allowed the runs), it is the pitching putting pressure on the hitting.

While people believe the pitching would be better if the hitting were better -- and in some cases that is certainly the case -- I also believe the hitting would be better in many cases if the pitching were better.

If you have solid pitching, the hitting will be there.

But if you want to talk about averages, thePirates had a team batting average of .410 for today's game. And they were facing frontline pitching.

delben91
05-24-2009, 11:24 PM
The blockbuster I'd hope we'd look to make is for US to trade a top notch player for real haul of young talent....not utility infielders, but talent.


Sounds good, but how do you guarantee any of that "young talent" pans out? I'm not saying I have a better idea, I'm honestly asking.

CashMan
05-24-2009, 11:35 PM
So you can name 14 AL starters you'd rather have than Jake Peavy?

Your grapes are awful sour.


The Red Sawks have like 4 I would rather have.

Buehrle
Bedard
Lester
Dice-K
Saunders
Greinke
CC
Burnett
Beckett
Danks
Kazmir
Lackey
Weaver
Halladay


Good Enough?

Craig Grebeck
05-24-2009, 11:43 PM
The Red Sawks have like 4 I would rather have.

Buehrle
Bedard
Lester
Dice-K
Saunders
Greinke
CC
Burnett
Beckett
Danks
Kazmir
Lackey
Weaver
Halladay


Good Enough?
This list made me laugh. A lot.

voodoochile
05-24-2009, 11:48 PM
Perhaps acquiring a guy with 4 years left on his contract wasn't just meant for a stab at this season?

No, really? You mean it wasn't just about this year? It would have been about having one of the best 1-4 SP in the majors for the next several years? Really? Wow... Such insight... How can anyone ever figure something like that out? I mean no one else in this thread seems to get it, how'd you do it? :rolleyes:

voodoochile
05-24-2009, 11:50 PM
The Red Sawks have like 4 I would rather have.

(snip - 14 starting pitchrs named including Danks and Buehrle)


Good Enough?

So the Sox would have 3 of the 15 best starters in the AL and Floyd? That would truly suck...

doublem23
05-24-2009, 11:51 PM
No, really? You mean it wasn't just about this year? It would have been about having one of the best 1-4 SP in the majors for the next several years? Really? Wow... Such insight... How can anyone ever figure something like that out? I mean no one else in this thread seems to get it, how'd you do it? :rolleyes:

Well, I am a WSI mod.

Tragg
05-24-2009, 11:51 PM
Sounds good, but how do you guarantee any of that "young talent" pans out? I'm not saying I have a better idea, I'm honestly asking.
You don't.
But you scout (I assume that we have some talent evaluators somewhere in this organizatiton), make your own judgments, scrupulously AVOID the media-hyped prospects, and try to cut the best deal that you can. It's a numbers game - if you get enough of them, some will pan out.
By the same token, how do we know that the pitcher we trade for doesn't turn into a Ritchie or Javy?
Can also be alert for small deals - for this organization that loves speedy slappers, I still don't know why we didn't get Josh Anderson either in the Javy trade or on the cheap after spriing training like the Tigers did. He's not particularly good, but can play his position, is speedy and hits better than the Sox' slappers.
That said, if the Peavy deal was Poreda, Richard and a bag of balls, then that's too juicy to pass up.

voodoochile
05-24-2009, 11:53 PM
Well, I am a WSI mod.

Name dropper...:D:

jabrch
05-25-2009, 12:00 AM
The Red Sawks have like 4 I would rather have.

Buehrle
Bedard
Lester
Dice-K
Saunders
Greinke
CC
Burnett
Beckett
Danks
Kazmir
Lackey
Weaver
Halladay


Good Enough?

That's a joke.

CashMan
05-25-2009, 12:16 AM
This list made me laugh. A lot.


Peavy pitches in a pitcher friendly park, and also pitches in the NL.

doublem23
05-25-2009, 12:18 AM
Peavy pitches in a pitcher friendly park, and also pitches in the NL.

We've gone over all the reasons before. If you think Peavy is overrated, that's fine, there's no way to definitively say so until he makes the trek over to the A.L.

That said, I disagree with about 3/4 of your list. If Peavy isn't a #1, then he'd be the league's best #2.

tm1119
05-25-2009, 12:23 AM
So you can name 14 AL starters you'd rather have than Jake Peavy?

Your grapes are awful sour.

Peavy has a career 3.69 ERA away from Petco Park. Put him in the AL and the Cell as his home stadium and he is most certainly not going to be an ace. I don't necessarily agree with that list of pitchers that were named, but Peavy has benifited a lot from having such a pitcher friendly park.

cards press box
05-25-2009, 04:04 AM
Perhaps acquiring a guy with 4 years left on his contract wasn't just meant for a stab at this season?

No, I'm sure it wasn't but I'm glad the deal didn't go through. For three reasons, I would rather see the Sox keep Poreda and Richard and the financial resources that would have been used to pay Peavy.

First, I think that Poreda has a good chance to be a top of the rotation starter. Second, Richard seems to be devoloping the secondary pitches needed to become an effective major league starter. Third, the money that the Sox would have had to pay Peavy in the next two or three years can now be used to address other needs in the offseason.

The blockbuster I'd hope we'd look to make is for US to trade a top notch player for real haul of young talent....not utility infielders, but talent.

The core of the 2009 Birmingham Barons team will start arriving in Chicago next summer and the following year. If the Sox drop out of the division race by July, then expect some trades of veterans on the major league roster who the Sox don't plan to bring back next year.

cws05champ
05-25-2009, 11:40 AM
Peavy has a career 3.69 ERA away from Petco Park. Put him in the AL and the Cell as his home stadium and he is most certainly not going to be an ace. I don't necessarily agree with that list of pitchers that were named, but Peavy has benifited a lot from having such a pitcher friendly park.
Everyone keeps saying this, but this doesn't account for a pitcher learning how to pitch in his home park. Buehrle is supposedly our#1 right? Four out of the last six years he has had a better ERA at Comisky than on the road. Including a 1.60 ERA at home vs 4.58 on the road this year. how do you explain that?
Peavy is a great pitcher no matter where he pitches, and would have given us Peavy, Buehrle, Danks,Floyd for the next 3 years at least...I say that is a good rotation no matter who pitches at #5.

jcw218
05-25-2009, 01:50 PM
I don't think so, but it's hard to separate the pitching from the hitting. Josh Fields has been a problem, but his defense (and his effect on the pitching) has been a bigger problem than his hitting. A slumping Joe Crede with a good back or a Juan Uribe might be hitting as poorly as Fields is, but they would still be contributing.

People whine about how the pitchers are under so much pressure because the hitters aren't hitting. But when the pitchers give up a bunch of runs in the early innings (Fields' lack of defense was instrumental in the magnitude of Thursday's loss, but the pitching still allowed the runs), it is the pitching putting pressure on the hitting.

While people believe the pitching would be better if the hitting were better -- and in some cases that is certainly the case -- I also believe the hitting would be better in many cases if the pitching were better.

If you have solid pitching, the hitting will be there.

But if you want to talk about averages, thePirates had a team batting average of .410 for today's game. And they were facing frontline pitching.

While Fields has been average at best while playing third, his defensive skills, or lack thereof, did not cause the flood gates to open in the 2nd of Thursdays game. That onus belongs to Betemit. He was manning the position not Fields. I'm not saying that Josh makes the plays the same as Betemit did, Fields may have done worse.

BadBobbyJenks
05-25-2009, 02:15 PM
The Red Sawks have like 4 I would rather have.

Buehrle - better than Peavy really?
Bedard - He hasn't been injured yet
Lester - He is looking fantastic this season
Dice-K - take a look at his whip and get back to me
Saunders - Really?
Burnett - 30 starts twice in his career
Beckett - Has had one good season in the AL
Danks - Better than Peavy right now?
Kazmir - was just put on the DL for sucking
Weaver - Was this a joke?

Halladay, CC and Greinke I will give you and Lackey is arguable.


No, I would say that list is far from good enough.

veeter
05-25-2009, 03:12 PM
IMO Kenny's relying on guys getting back into form. This also involves Q and TCM playing more like last year. The pitching is the bigger concern long-term, and pitching is what drives titles the most. Adding a #1 SP and developing a dominant rotation is the surest way to get to another ring. Plus, the Sox have some position prospects in the minors who IMO are better bets to contribute than most of the pitchers (IMO pitchers are a much greater crapshoot than hitters).I totally agree with this. Quentin was the MVP last year in my eyes. His impact was enormous. Without a productive Carlos the Sox are in big trouble. He's duplicating PK's season of last year. He's injured.

voodoochile
05-25-2009, 03:19 PM
I totally agree with this. Quentin was the MVP last year in my eyes. His impact was enormous. Without a productive Carlos the Sox are in big trouble. He's duplicating PK's season of last year. He's injured.

Had a couple of good rips yesterday. Hopefully his problems are mostly behind him. As someone who suffers from a similar thing to planter fasciitis it requires monitoring and you have to be careful and give your feet rest when you can. Fortunately I haven't had a flareup in a few years, but Carlos is going to have to be careful about not overdoing it, but if he is, then he should be fine.

veeter
05-25-2009, 03:28 PM
Had a couple of good rips yesterday. Hopefully his problems are mostly behind him. As someone who suffers from a similar thing to planter fasciitis it requires monitoring and you have to be careful and give your feet rest when you can. Fortunately I haven't had a flareup in a few years, but Carlos is going to have to be careful about not overdoing it, but if he is, then he should be fine.I almost wish they'd DL him, to get him right. That ball he hit to the wall yesterday, last year goes out. Something's missing. He probably can't drive with his legs yet. Sore feet and/ or hands makes hitting impossible.

voodoochile
05-25-2009, 03:52 PM
I almost wish they'd DL him, to get him right. That ball he hit to the wall yesterday, last year goes out. Something's missing. He probably can't drive with his legs yet. Sore feet and/ or hands makes hitting impossible.

If indeed the problem is Planter Fasciitis, then DL'ing him won't help. It either hurts so bad you can barely walk on it or it's okay. It's recurrent, so taking time off is no guarantee it won't come back the next day or next week or next month. If his hands are okay and he can walk then he's good to play.

veeter
05-25-2009, 05:16 PM
If indeed the problem is Planter Fasciitis, then DL'ing him won't help. It either hurts so bad you can barely walk on it or it's okay. It's recurrent, so taking time off is no guarantee it won't come back the next day or next week or next month. If his hands are okay and he can walk then he's good to play.Good to know.

TDog
05-25-2009, 05:51 PM
While Fields has been average at best while playing third, his defensive skills, or lack thereof, did not cause the flood gates to open in the 2nd of Thursdays game. That onus belongs to Betemit. He was manning the position not Fields. I'm not saying that Josh makes the plays the same as Betemit did, Fields may have done worse.

You're right. I was thinking of Fields poor play at third and how there was no option (short of Nix, I suppose), and I blamed Fields for Betemit's error. No matter who is playing at third this year, the lack of defense at the position is putting more pressure on the pitching staff than the lack of offense is.

Fields probably makes the play. He generally makes routine plays. But Fields wasn't in there because Fields can't hit and isn't skilled enough defensively to contribute when he isn't hitting.

For a team to win early, often and into the postseason, it needs pitching. For a team to have pitching, it needs a solid defensive third baseman. Last year when Crede went down, the Sox were fortunate they hadn't cut ties with Uribe.

Flight #24
05-25-2009, 05:58 PM
In the next 2 years, the Sox will have the following openings:
Catcher
DH
1B
RF
And that's IF Fields, Getz, Alexei and Anderson can assume full-time roles.
Plus 1 or 2 positions on the rotation and several in the pen.

Peavy or the veteran starter of your choice fills one of the above, creates another hole (if Richard/Poreda are dealt) and would undoubtedly also take some of the pieces that we hope will fill other holes.

The blockbuster I'd hope we'd look to make is for US to trade a top notch player for real haul of young talent....not utility infielders, but talent.

You no longer get "real hauls" of young talent for vets on the downside of their career and/or with big contracts. Konerko/Thome/Dye aren't going to net you a ton.

Also you created a strawman - the Peavy trade didn't really create a hole, not unless you're counting on both Richard and Poreda to be fulltime starters. Had you made the deal, instead of having 2 ?s for the rotation, you'd have a guaranteed #2 or better guy in Peavy. And that would lock you into arguably the best top 4 in the AL for a few years.

jcw218
05-25-2009, 10:52 PM
For a team to win early, often and into the postseason, it needs pitching. For a team to have pitching, it needs a solid defensive third baseman. Last year when Crede went down, the Sox were fortunate they hadn't cut ties with Uribe.

I totally agree. I wish that we still had Uribe. We've heard so much about Fields, its time for him to show what he can or can't do. I'd say give Fields until the all-star game to prove himself. If he can't the Sox then have until July 31 to find a replacement.

johnnyg83
05-26-2009, 12:44 AM
I think that was the key to the Peavy deal. He wasn't a 2009 solution, but a piece of the formula for the next four years.

Thatguyoverthere
05-26-2009, 12:45 AM
So today had to move us up at least a spot in a few categories... right? :cool: