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View Full Version : Its time to unload!


soxyess
05-17-2009, 05:11 PM
Its becoming very hard to watch this team. They are a deeply flawed team. I think it would be wise for KW to begin putting out feelers to trade Konerko, Dye, Dotel, Linebrink, Thome, and anyone else who can yield a quality return. We need to build up our organization from within. We should have quite a bit of money off the books by next year. Are there going to be any quality free agents next year?

kittle42
05-17-2009, 05:12 PM
The only thing that gives me hope about this season is that similar threads to this one have ended up being looked upon as laughable by the end of the season in the past.

MarySwiss
05-17-2009, 05:15 PM
The only thing that gives me hope about this season is that similar threads to this one have ended up being looked upon as laughable by the end of the season in the past.

:thumbsup:

soxyess
05-17-2009, 05:17 PM
Look I hope they turn it around and I look stupid for makingthis post, but would anyone give me some real solid reasons why I should believe that this team can win the division?

kittle42
05-17-2009, 05:27 PM
Look I hope they turn it around and I look stupid for makingthis post, but would anyone give me some real solid reasons why I should believe that this team can win the division?

Other than blind hope? No.

doublem23
05-17-2009, 05:27 PM
Look I hope they turn it around and I look stupid for makingthis post, but would anyone give me some real solid reasons why I should believe that this team can win the division?

:violin:

Nice win-win scenario you've laid out for yourself. Do you see many teams aching to take on big salaries yet? It takes two to tango.

SoxGirl4Life
05-17-2009, 05:30 PM
:violin:

Nice win-win scenario you've laid out for yourself. Do you see many teams aching to take on big salaries yet? It takes two to tango.

Someone on the postgame wanted us to trade Thome to the Cubs because they could use his bat. :?:

Where do these people come from?

DirtySox
05-17-2009, 05:31 PM
Too early.

Make your case in a few weeks.

doublem23
05-17-2009, 05:34 PM
Someone on the postgame wanted us to trade Thome to the Cubs because they could use his bat. :?:

Where do these people come from?

He must know about a special, secret plan for the NL to allow just the Cubs a DH, since baseball obviously wants to rig the game so the Cubs win.

Rohan
05-17-2009, 05:37 PM
Someone on the postgame wanted us to trade Thome to the Cubs because they could use his bat. :?:

Where do these people come from?

Crazy Town:bandance: :bandance::bandance::bandance:

voodoochile
05-17-2009, 05:48 PM
If we dump all these players, who plays?

WhiteSox5187
05-17-2009, 05:49 PM
I'd like to give it until the end of May. We have six in a row with the Twins and Pirates, we might be able to get a winning streak going against those guys. But if we split with those guys, it's time to start listening to who needs what.

southside rocks
05-17-2009, 06:00 PM
He must know about a special, secret plan for the NL to allow just the Cubs a DH, since baseball obviously wants to rig the game so the Cubs win.

I'm sure you're right. After all, they are a Team Of Destiny.

southside rocks
05-17-2009, 06:05 PM
Its becoming very hard to watch this team. They are a deeply flawed team. I think it would be wise for KW to begin putting out feelers to trade Konerko, Dye, Dotel, Linebrink, Thome, and anyone else who can yield a quality return. We need to build up our organization from within. We should have quite a bit of money off the books by next year. Are there going to be any quality free agents next year?

How is it remotely possible to trade Jim Thome without having to eat about 90% of his salary? Hardly "a quality return"! And who wants to pay Paulie $12 million a year to ground into inning-ending double plays?

You're much likely to get "quality" in return for Matt Thornton, Bobby Jenks, Alexei Ramirez, even AJ Pierzynski -- and then you've made a struggling ballclub into a totally bad ballclub. I don't want them to go in that direction, thanks.

I want the players who are in uniform now to start playing like major league ballplayers and not like a bunch of sad sacks who are having themselves a gigantic pity party, which is what the team looks like right now. I have no idea how to get them to do that, and I sure don't envy Ozzie Guillen at this time of this year.

Rohan
05-17-2009, 06:13 PM
How is it remotely possible to trade Jim Thome without having to eat about 90% of his salary? Hardly "a quality return"! And who wants to pay Paulie $12 million a year to ground into inning-ending double plays?

You're much likely to get "quality" in return for Matt Thornton, Bobby Jenks, Alexei Ramirez, even AJ Pierzynski -- and then you've made a struggling ballclub into a totally bad ballclub. I don't want them to go in that direction, thanks.

I want the players who are in uniform now to start playing like major league ballplayers and not like a bunch of sad sacks who are having themselves a gigantic pity party, which is what the team looks like right now. I have no idea how to get them to do that, and I sure don't envy Ozzie Guillen at this time of this year.

Konerko does a lot more than ground into double plays. He's hitting .318, leads the team in singles, and more importantly doubles. His glove at first base is also extremely underrated.

I'm all for being hard on players, but let's be honest too.

Daver
05-17-2009, 06:15 PM
If we dump all these players, who plays?

:chopper

Put me in coach!

southside rocks
05-17-2009, 06:16 PM
Konerko does a lot more than ground into double plays. He's hitting .318, leads the team in singles, and more importantly doubles. His glove at first base is also extremely underrated.

I'm all for being hard on players, but let's be honest too.

I think he would not bring much in return if the Sox were to look to trade him. IOW, I think he is of more value to the Sox than to another team at this point. I do not think that the answer to the current woes lies in dumping Konerko, Dotel, Thome, Linebrink, etc. -- even if they can be shopped to other teams for any good return, which is far from certain.

voodoochile
05-17-2009, 06:25 PM
:chopper

Put me in coach!

Better a dead dog than a live stiff I suppose...

Other than that, I guess they can call up the rest of Charlotte and really tank the season and when that proves ineffective and a backbreaker to the box office they can call up Birmingham and ruin their development curves and after that, what the heck, there's always Kannapolis - I'm sure the Yankees, et al will be "intimidated" when that happens.

It's all well and good to say, back up the truck, but after they do that, what next? It's a half-baked, half-assed, knee-jerk plan at present.

soxyess
05-17-2009, 06:32 PM
How is it remotely possible to trade Jim Thome without having to eat about 90% of his salary? Hardly "a quality return"! And who wants to pay Paulie $12 million a year to ground into inning-ending double plays?

You're much likely to get "quality" in return for Matt Thornton, Bobby Jenks, Alexei Ramirez, even AJ Pierzynski -- and then you've made a struggling ballclub into a totally bad ballclub. I don't want them to go in that direction, thanks.

I want the players who are in uniform now to start playing like major league ballplayers and not like a bunch of sad sacks who are having themselves a gigantic pity party, which is what the team looks like right now. I have no idea how to get them to do that, and I sure don't envy Ozzie Guillen at this time of this year.

How do we know that this isnt the best that some of these players can play. It looks like Fields is nothing more than a .240-.250 hitter with a below average glove who wil strike out 100+ a year. Maybe Ramirez is the same thing as Fields only with a better glove and more speed. Getz is comming back down to earth now that there is a scouting report on him. Maybe Quentin is really a .260-.270 hitter with power and not a .290-.300 hitter that we expected. Maybe Danks and Floyd are 4th and 5th starters and not top of the rotation guys.

We tend to overvalue our players (im as guilty as anyone of doing this) when in reality they are closer to average than we think. We need to continue to build our farm team, and if trading Konerko, Dye or a Jenks would help than lets do it.

Rohan
05-17-2009, 06:32 PM
Better a dead dog than a live stiff I suppose...

Other than that, I guess they can call up the rest of Charlotte and really tank the season and when that proves ineffective and a backbreaker to the box office they can call up Birmingham and ruin their development curves and after that, what the heck, there's always Kannapolis - I'm sure the Yankees, et al will be "intimidated" when that happens.

It's all well and good to say, back up the truck, but after they do that, what next? It's a half-baked, half-assed, knee-jerk plan at present.

Could not have said it any better myself.

soxyess
05-17-2009, 06:35 PM
Better a dead dog than a live stiff I suppose...

Other than that, I guess they can call up the rest of Charlotte and really tank the season and when that proves ineffective and a backbreaker to the box office they can call up Birmingham and ruin their development curves and after that, what the heck, there's always Kannapolis - I'm sure the Yankees, et al will be "intimidated" when that happens.

It's all well and good to say, back up the truck, but after they do that, what next? It's a half-baked, half-assed, knee-jerk plan at present.

At that point you are setting up for 2010. You bring up some players from Charlotte to fill in the holes. Meanwhile you have dumped a tremendous amount of payroll. You start bringing up the quality young talent next year, and look to the free agent market to add some established talent. In the meantime you continue drafting and developing.

Rohan
05-17-2009, 06:36 PM
At that point you are setting up for 2010. You bring up some players from Charlotte to fill in the holes. Meanwhile you have dumped a tremendous amount of payroll. You start bringing up the quality young talent next year, and look to the free agent market to add some established talent. In the meantime you continue drafting and developing.

Did you even read his post?

soxyess
05-17-2009, 06:38 PM
Did you even read his post?

Yes he says its a knee jerk plan to back up the truck. I beg to differ

I_Liked_Manuel
05-17-2009, 06:41 PM
I heard an interview on the radio last Thursday or Friday with Konerko. He made a comment that intrigued me - something like, "We have until June to get this straightened out." It was in the context of whether they'll have to break the team up, so I took out of it that Kenny had given the team a June deadline to get things going.

Daver
05-17-2009, 06:47 PM
At that point you are setting up for 2010. You bring up some players from Charlotte to fill in the holes. Meanwhile you have dumped a tremendous amount of payroll. You start bringing up the quality young talent next year, and look to the free agent market to add some established talent. In the meantime you continue drafting and developing.

What quality young talent?

There is maybe one or two players that should even try for a roster spot in 2010.

Frater Perdurabo
05-17-2009, 06:52 PM
What quality young talent?

There is maybe one or two players that should even try for a roster spot in 2010.

Beckham and Poreda?

Milw
05-17-2009, 07:07 PM
What quality young talent?

There is maybe one or two players that should even try for a roster spot in 2010.
Let's be fair, we have quality young talent, just that some of it is already at the big league level. I think Getz has exceeded everyone's expectations, and despite their struggles over the past month, Danks and Floyd still qualify, too. Nix and Fields will probably never be all stars, but they have the potential to have long, solid careers.

Add Poreda, Beckham and maybe Flowers to the mix and that's a decent nucleus to rebuild around.

I know by "young talent" you were referring to guys that aren't here yet... but the future isn't as bleak as you make it sound.

kitekrazy
05-17-2009, 07:14 PM
How do we know that this isnt the best that some of these players can play. It looks like Fields is nothing more than a .240-.250 hitter with a below average glove who wil strike out 100+ a year. Maybe Ramirez is the same thing as Fields only with a better glove and more speed. Getz is comming back down to earth now that there is a scouting report on him. Maybe Quentin is really a .260-.270 hitter with power and not a .290-.300 hitter that we expected. Maybe Danks and Floyd are 4th and 5th starters and not top of the rotation guys.

We tend to overvalue our players (im as guilty as anyone of doing this) when in reality they are closer to average than we think. We need to continue to build our farm team, and if trading Konerko, Dye or a Jenks would help than lets do it.

Of course we over value players but the one's mentioned haven't been in the big leagues for very long. They need a chance.

Brian26
05-17-2009, 07:15 PM
Its becoming very hard to watch this team. They are a deeply flawed team. I think it would be wise for KW to begin putting out feelers to trade Konerko, Dye, Dotel, Linebrink, Thome, and anyone else who can yield a quality return. We need to build up our organization from within. We should have quite a bit of money off the books by next year. Are there going to be any quality free agents next year?

Am I the only one who sees the stunning contradiction in philosophy within the span of three sentences?

I don't have any answers and don't envy Kenny Williams right now at all. He's in a situation where the veterans may be showing their age (Thome, Dye), the rookies are still a little too inexperienced (Getz, Fields), and the quality guys in the middle that are worth their contracts are fan favorites you don't necessarily want to trade (Buehrle, AJ). Throw some injuries and underachieving guys into the mix (Quentin, Alexei, BA), and it's a recipe for a miserable summer.

areilly
05-17-2009, 07:20 PM
I heard an interview on the radio last Thursday or Friday with Konerko. He made a comment that intrigued me - something like, "We have until June to get this straightened out." It was in the context of whether they'll have to break the team up, so I took out of it that Kenny had given the team a June deadline to get things going.

It was this article (http://www.suntimes.com/sports/baseball/whitesox/1572060,chicago-white-sox-paul-konerko-indians-0513.article).

And what he meant was his experience has taught him that you don't really know a truly bad team until June. That's all.

Frater Perdurabo
05-17-2009, 07:26 PM
It was this article (http://www.suntimes.com/sports/baseball/whitesox/1572060,chicago-white-sox-paul-konerko-indians-0513.article).

And what he meant was his experience has taught him that you don't really know a truly bad team until June. That's all.

Exactly. Either the Sox will feast on the inferior NL (like they did in 2005, 2006 and 2008), or they will implode (like they did in 2007). The Sox performance against the inferior NL should tell KW exactly what to do: stand pat, add a piece, or sell.

october23sp
05-17-2009, 07:43 PM
Let's unload AFTER I go to the Cell in July. I don't want to watch the Charlotte Knights play on a trip I have been wanting to go on since I was last there. :D:

Daver
05-17-2009, 07:50 PM
Let's be fair, we have quality young talent, just that some of it is already at the big league level. I think Getz has exceeded everyone's expectations, and despite their struggles over the past month, Danks and Floyd still qualify, too. Nix and Fields will probably never be all stars, but they have the potential to have long, solid careers.

Add Poreda, Beckham and maybe Flowers to the mix and that's a decent nucleus to rebuild around.

I know by "young talent" you were referring to guys that aren't here yet... but the future isn't as bleak as you make it sound.

I merely said that there are two players that should compete for a roster spot next year, nothing more. I think there are a lot of Sox fans that are over rating the talent in the lower levels because they want ot believe that it is better than it is.

thomas35forever
05-17-2009, 07:53 PM
I agree that we just need to ride this out. If we're still reeling by the beginning of June, we should probably start planning for next season. We've also had the misfortune of running into some pretty good teams lately minus Cleveland. I also agree with the poster who says that if Pittsburgh gives us problems, this team is not going anywhere and we'll need to see what value we can get in exchange for other teams' needs.

TDog
05-17-2009, 08:05 PM
I merely said that there are two players that should compete for a roster spot next year, nothing more. I think there are a lot of Sox fans that are over rating the talent in the lower levels because they want ot believe that it is better than it is.

I think that true of fans of most teams. Fans don't rate their team's developing talent based on reality but based on what they want reality to be. Not a day goes by in Northern California that I don't hear great things about Buster Posey, and I'm sure most to the people who talk about him have never seen him play.

These same fans don't have any idea what the players they want to dump would bring back in trade. But if the Sox were to "unload," they would be complaining bitterly about the coming noncompetitive years.

JB98
05-17-2009, 08:15 PM
At that point you are setting up for 2010. You bring up some players from Charlotte to fill in the holes. Meanwhile you have dumped a tremendous amount of payroll. You start bringing up the quality young talent next year, and look to the free agent market to add some established talent. In the meantime you continue drafting and developing.

Who are the Sox going to bring up from Charlotte to fill in the holes? I can't think of a single player down there who deserves to be in the big leagues.

Noneck
05-17-2009, 08:27 PM
Unload what? Dotel, Thome, Contreras and Dye are as good as gone for next year and will get next to nothing for all of them combined. Konerko will be a tough sell and not much will be gotten in return. The same holds true with AJ. Linebrink would be even a tougher sell. Buehrle at this point may give a return but in a couple months, who knows.

I get a kick out of this back up the truck routine. Even if all are dumped , that money won't be used on FA's, it will be said to be used on "future" salaries. And who knows what that means or who will be deemed deserving of that money if and when the time comes.

Backing up the truck means going back to the days of having small market talent, paying small market salaries, in a big market area. But maybe that's what management wants. I don't tho.

One More thing:
When I bought my July and August tics it wasn't to see a AAA team and have management pocket 30m by backing up the truck. I am not going to get a partial refund,so leave the veterans on the team that I paid to see, no matter how crappy they are playing.

DirtySox
05-17-2009, 08:27 PM
I think the point is that it wouldn't matter who you bring up from Charlotte. It would be considered a lost season at that point.

JB98
05-17-2009, 08:31 PM
I think the point is that it wouldn't matter who you bring up from Charlotte. It would be considered a lost season at that point.

They would be turning the Cell into a ghost town if they did that. The players down in Charlotte can't compete at the AAA level.

hi im skot
05-17-2009, 08:32 PM
Boooooooooooooooooooo!!!!

DirtySox
05-17-2009, 08:39 PM
They would be turning the Cell into a ghost town if they did that. The players down in Charlotte can't compete at the AAA level.

I would tend to agree.

JB98
05-17-2009, 08:44 PM
I would tend to agree.

Which makes it real hard to trade ALL of the veterans, which is something some people on this site are advocating.

You still have to field a major-league team, even if it's a bad major-league team. That's especially true in a big market like Chicago, where there's another team in town that figures to be in the pennant race.

The Sox would set their organization back to late-1990s level if they trade all the vets and just call up Charlotte. Last I checked, the Knights were 13-23 or something like that. There is a stockpile of BAD players there.

Now, if they trade some vets for some guys who can help right away in the big leagues, that's another matter.

I_Liked_Manuel
05-17-2009, 08:56 PM
It was this article (http://www.suntimes.com/sports/baseball/whitesox/1572060,chicago-white-sox-paul-konerko-indians-0513.article).

And what he meant was his experience has taught him that you don't really know a truly bad team until June. That's all.

Mully/Hanley played the interview in its entirety fwiw

gosox41
05-17-2009, 08:58 PM
The only thing that gives me hope about this season is that similar threads to this one have ended up being looked upon as laughable by the end of the season in the past.


I hope you're right. The only differnce betweeb thus year and the last 3 is the Sox haven't had the great pitching to carry the team while the offense does it's usual 2 month stinkfest.





Bob

Tragg
05-17-2009, 09:09 PM
No one will ship us much talent for these players.
There's really no point.
At midterm, we could probably dump the bullpen for some value, if we're clever about it.

voodoochile
05-17-2009, 10:24 PM
At that point you are setting up for 2010. You bring up some players from Charlotte to fill in the holes. Meanwhile you have dumped a tremendous amount of payroll. You start bringing up the quality young talent next year, and look to the free agent market to add some established talent. In the meantime you continue drafting and developing.

The payroll is gone at the end of the year anyway. The Sox can walk away from Thome, Dye, Colon, Dotel and Contreras for a small buyout on Dye (I think $1M but it might be $3M). That's ~$36M to spend right there - which should be plenty to fill any holes they need to fill. The draft pick isn't that important to go tank the rest of the season. ALL of the players who have a future with the team (well, 95% of them) are playing in AA and shouldn't be rushed.

Why do you care if the Sox save $10M between now and November since it won't mean a damned thing for future teams. They aren't going to break the bank on prospects with those players available.

It makes ZERO sense to bust this team up in May from a fan's perspective. There's just no logic to it.

Edit: And as I and others have pointed out that money saviings would be offset and more by the loss of revenue between now and November because walkups would drop to near nothing except for the occasional fan looking for an evening out. It would also be abdicating the season to the business rivals 8 miles north and start a sportswriters' feeding frenzy about the Sox white flagging it in May...

sunofgold
05-17-2009, 10:40 PM
Talk about trading a guy who is at his high point right now. I wouldn't want to trade him. But, if that is the route you want to go...he has the most trade value. He does have a limited no trade clause.

A solid lefty starter with postseason experience would be very value to a contending team.

LoveYourSuit
05-17-2009, 10:48 PM
Edit: And as I and others have pointed out that money saviings would be offset and more by the loss of revenue between now and November because walkups would drop to near nothing except for the occasional fan looking for an evening out. It would also be abdicating the season to the business rivals 8 miles north and start a sportswriters' feeding frenzy about the Sox white flagging it in May...



I agree.

Baseball is a business 1st operation. You have to keeep people interested regardless of a slow start. Dumping players is a bad business move here in May. Come late July, go for it.

voodoochile
05-17-2009, 10:52 PM
Talk about trading a guy who is at his high point right now. I wouldn't want to trade him. But, if that is the route you want to go...he has the most trade value. He does have a limited no trade clause.

A solid lefty starter with postseason experience would be very value to a contending team.

***?

Trade BurlyMon?!??!?!?!!

I hope he never pitches for another team. If you can package him for a proven top of the rotation lefty starter who is younger, then okay, otherwise:

Make the bad men stop hurting me, Mommy...

sunofgold
05-17-2009, 10:59 PM
I don't want to unload right now. However, if you ask me who has the most trade value, it would have to be Buehrle.

White Sox also have been very concerned about the number of innings that he has thrown in the previous seasons and how many innings that he throws this season. They have been giving him an extra day of rest whenever possible. They even limited his spring training innings.

If the White Sox feel that he is an injury waiting to happen or that his productions is going to go down, then I think that the White Sox might trade him. His value would be high to other teams and his value might be low to White Sox management (they might have more information that the public does).

LoveYourSuit
05-17-2009, 11:16 PM
I don't want to unload right now. However, if you ask me who has the most trade value, it would have to be Buehrle.

White Sox also have been very concerned about the number of innings that he has thrown in the previous seasons and how many innings that he throws this season. They have been giving him an extra day of rest whenever possible. They even limited his spring training innings.

If the White Sox feel that he is an injury waiting to happen or that his productions is going to go down, then I think that the White Sox might trade him. His value would be high to other teams and his value might be low to White Sox management (they might have more information that the public does).


Come July, Buehrle, Dye, & Jenks will give you the most value out there.

Konerko and Thome no one will want. So we can forget about that.

Britt Burns
05-17-2009, 11:16 PM
That was the Sox record on 5/18/1983. Are the 2009 Sox as good as the '83 team? Of course not. But a bad stretch of baseball doesn't mean you pack it up before the summer has already started. If at the end of june they are still playing this way...maybe. But White Flag II in May? Come on guys.

And trading Buehrle is nuts at any time of the season. He's the heart of this team and, in case you haven't noticed, all of our legit prospects are position players with the possible exception of Poreda. I have not given up on Danks and Floyd for the next 2-3 years, and those two plus MB give us a solid group to start anew with next year even if this season tanks and we trade off the rest of the vets.

LoveYourSuit
05-17-2009, 11:26 PM
That was the Sox record on 5/18/1983. Are the 2009 Sox as good as the '83 team? Of course not. But a bad stretch of baseball doesn't mean you pack it up before the summer has already started. If at the end of june they are still playing this way...maybe. But White Flag II in May? Come on guys.

And trading Buehrle is nuts at any time of the season. He's the heart of this team and, in case you haven't noticed, all of our legit prospects are position players with the possible exception of Poreda. I have not given up on Danks and Floyd for the next 2-3 years, and those two plus MB give us a solid group to start anew with next year even if this season tanks and we trade off the rest of the vets.


I think the 1983 AL does not compare to how good the AL is today.

There are no days off playing in the AL. Every team can beat you and take 2 of 3 from you.

In addition, our starting rotations has no hope of duplicating what that '83 staff was able to do May forward.

Noneck
05-17-2009, 11:47 PM
Come July, Buehrle, Dye, & Jenks will give you the most value out there.

Konerko and Thome no one will want. So we can forget about that.

I don't think much can be gotten for Dye going into a FA year.

LoveYourSuit
05-18-2009, 12:00 AM
I don't think much can be gotten for Dye going into a FA year.


I think expiring contracts have as good a shot if not better than a long term cotract getting moved. Just because of the economic times. A team knocking on the door for that one shot will take a flyer on Dye for a pennant push. He's a proven big game player and good in the clubhouse.

Noneck
05-18-2009, 12:15 AM
A team knocking on the door for that one shot will take a flyer on Dye for a pennant push. He's a proven big game player and good in the clubhouse.

I agree, I would want him but I cant seeing getting much for a guy being around for only couple months. Hope you are right tho.

laxtonto
05-18-2009, 09:20 AM
Buherle has to be the centerpiece to get it started. It hurts to say that, but it is true. Look what a year and a half of Texiera brought Texas or 2 years of Dan Haren brought. Now compare that to CC return or Texiera return for the Braves. Those extra years allow teams to maximize the value in deals.

Look at dealing Buherle for a guy like Holland or Feliz in Texas or Tillman with Balt plus a few close to MLB ready prospects to help fill out a depleted upper minors and give a real shot of youth to the MLB ball club.

Why not a deal like Feliz, Borbon, Arias and Teagarden for Buherle? That gives a MLB top 10 SP prospect, a CF, SS and C which are all pretty close to MLB ready. If the team has to rebuild, maximize the talent coming back and fill as many holes as possible.

The main problem would be that he has a full NTC and is owed 28M for 2010 and 2011, so some form of concessions to Mark will have to be made.

It won't be the most popular of ideas, but if the team decides to blow it up, then do it completely.

Demps2
05-18-2009, 09:38 AM
Thome will be very hard to trade. He's old, doesn't play the field (NL out) and most good teams that would want a LH bat in their lineup already have a good DH (ie TOR, TEX). Plus he is on a walk year and he's making 8 figures. I don't think he will bring us much back. Buerhle is a different story, but his contract adds a year if traded. Plus, if we trade Mark, we are talking about a MAJOR rebuilding job. Konerko is on the wrong side of 30, but is still productive both in the field and at the plate. Dye and Dotel (if they keep it up) could bring us back good, not great prospects. We don't have a CC Sabathia or Johan Santana to trade.

scarsofthumper
05-18-2009, 09:49 AM
Buherle has to be the centerpiece to get it started. It hurts to say that, but it is true. Look what a year and a half of Texiera brought Texas or 2 years of Dan Haren brought. Now compare that to CC return or Texiera return for the Braves. Those extra years allow teams to maximize the value in deals.

Look at dealing Buherle for a guy like Holland or Feliz in Texas or Tillman with Balt plus a few close to MLB ready prospects to help fill out a depleted upper minors and give a real shot of youth to the MLB ball club.

Why not a deal like Feliz, Borbon, Arias and Teagarden for Buherle? That gives a MLB top 10 SP prospect, a CF, SS and C which are all pretty close to MLB ready. If the team has to rebuild, maximize the talent coming back and fill as many holes as possible.

The main problem would be that he has a full NTC and is owed 28M for 2010 and 2011, so some form of concessions to Mark will have to be made.

It won't be the most popular of ideas, but if the team decides to blow it up, then do it completely.Except for the fact that Texas won't give up Teagarden. They'd give up Salty before then.

laxtonto
05-18-2009, 09:56 AM
Except for the fact that Texas won't give up Teagarden. They'd give up Salty before then.


Umm Salty is Texas starting C. That was the decision at the start of the season and Texas has pretty much no regrets about it. Some how Salty learned how to block the plate, frame pitches and throw out runners this off season. Teagarden has only gotten 34 AB's in 11 games. Salty is the starter for now and the foreseeable future.

Teagarden is definitely available. I would be more worried that Texas would not be willing to deal Holland or Feliz and the CHW would have to make a deal around a lesser know SP like Matt Harrison and another low level SP instead.

Sargeant79
05-18-2009, 11:09 AM
Buherle has to be the centerpiece to get it started. It hurts to say that, but it is true. Look what a year and a half of Texiera brought Texas or 2 years of Dan Haren brought. Now compare that to CC return or Texiera return for the Braves. Those extra years allow teams to maximize the value in deals.

Look at dealing Buherle for a guy like Holland or Feliz in Texas or Tillman with Balt plus a few close to MLB ready prospects to help fill out a depleted upper minors and give a real shot of youth to the MLB ball club.

Why not a deal like Feliz, Borbon, Arias and Teagarden for Buherle? That gives a MLB top 10 SP prospect, a CF, SS and C which are all pretty close to MLB ready. If the team has to rebuild, maximize the talent coming back and fill as many holes as possible.

The main problem would be that he has a full NTC and is owed 28M for 2010 and 2011, so some form of concessions to Mark will have to be made.

It won't be the most popular of ideas, but if the team decides to blow it up, then do it completely.

I think you're overvaluing Buehrle. I realize this is just a hypothetical trade here, but there is no way the Rangers would give up that much young talent for him. Buehrle is a really good pitcher, but Dan Haren or Mark Texeira he ain't.

TDog
05-18-2009, 11:25 AM
I agree.

Baseball is a business 1st operation. You have to keeep people interested regardless of a slow start. Dumping players is a bad business move here in May. Come late July, go for it.

It's even a bad business decision at the end of July. It can be a bad business decision in December.

Fan reaction to what the media labeled (and many at WSI refer to as) the White Flag Trade will make "unloading" in the future less likely.

kitekrazy
05-18-2009, 11:38 AM
I think you're overvaluing Buehrle. I realize this is just a hypothetical trade here, but there is no way the Rangers would give up that much young talent for him. Buehrle is a really good pitcher, but Dan Haren or Mark Texeira he ain't.

I think you are under evaluating a reliable starter who averages a 15 win season.
I also think any fan that believes in trading him is doing the same.

Trades are usually made because there is someone else they feel that can fill in.

Why trade anyone good and with the hopes that you'll get better?

Pitching is the most valued commodity in baseball. Why weaken in that area?

jabrch
05-18-2009, 11:49 AM
It's even a bad business decision at the end of July. It can be a bad business decision in December.

Fan reaction to what the media labeled (and many at WSI refer to as) the White Flag Trade will make "unloading" in the future less likely.


I am fairly confident that KW and JR will act in the best interest of this franchise and not act in response to a potential media response. If a deal exists where they feel like they can improve the club, if they are out of contention in their minds, I don't see them any less likely to pull the trigger because of the backlash to the White Flag trade.

Alvarez, Darwin and Roberto Hernandez got us Foulke, Howry, Barcelo, Caruso, Vining and Manning. Alvarez never went more than 160 IP after we traded him. And Roberto was OK - but not great - after we traded him. Darwin had one bad season then retired.

If we could give up that same sort of package, for guys the equivalent of Foulke and Howry, plus 4 other prospects, and if we were out of contention, I can't envision KW not doing it.

DirtySox
05-18-2009, 11:56 AM
I am fairly confident that KW and JR will act in the best interest of this franchise and not act in response to a potential media response. If a deal exists where they feel like they can improve the club, if they are out of contention in their minds, I don't see them any less likely to pull the trigger because of the backlash to the White Flag trade.

Good post. I wouldn't be surprised at all to see Jenks, Dye, and Dotel moved.

jabrch
05-18-2009, 12:03 PM
Good post. I wouldn't be surprised at all to see Jenks, Dye, and Dotel moved.

Of those three, I'd be surprised if Jenks was traded this year. Moving Dotel wouldn't shock me at all. I'm in between with JD. By all accounts, he'd like to resign here. The question is - how much would he like to resign for? But if we get towards the deadline, and we are, in KW's mind, out of it, I can imagine a lot of guys on the trade blocks, including the ones you listed.

Bartolo - I wouldn't expect him to garner much in return, but maybe someone would need a veteran 5th starter?

Betemit - he'd really be useful for a NL team who needs a strong switch hitting PH and who wouldn't plan on starting him - I wouldn't expect much for him either

BA - If they don't decide he is the long term answer, I can see an NL team in the hunt having enough use for him to send a prospect who may blossom into what we expected BA to become.

DirtySox
05-18-2009, 12:06 PM
Jenks would bring back the best haul, and his name was thrown around alot during winter meetings. Also, haven't the Sox shied away from contract talks with him?

To be clear I'm not saying I want him traded, but I wouldn't be surprised at all if he was moved.

Sargeant79
05-18-2009, 12:18 PM
I think you are under evaluating a reliable starter who averages a 15 win season.
I also think any fan that believes in trading him is doing the same.

Trades are usually made because there is someone else they feel that can fill in.

Why trade anyone good and with the hopes that you'll get better?

Pitching is the most valued commodity in baseball. Why weaken in that area?

I think that Buehrle absolutely does have a lot of value, but he probably has more value to us than he would in a trade. If you can get a ridiculous package like the Rangers one described in the earlier post, that's fine, but I don't think that would happen. I love Buehrle, but if I was Jon Daniels, I would not do that deal.

TDog
05-18-2009, 02:25 PM
I am fairly confident that KW and JR will act in the best interest of this franchise and not act in response to a potential media response. If a deal exists where they feel like they can improve the club, if they are out of contention in their minds, I don't see them any less likely to pull the trigger because of the backlash to the White Flag trade.

Alvarez, Darwin and Roberto Hernandez got us Foulke, Howry, Barcelo, Caruso, Vining and Manning. Alvarez never went more than 160 IP after we traded him. And Roberto was OK - but not great - after we traded him. Darwin had one bad season then retired.

If we could give up that same sort of package, for guys the equivalent of Foulke and Howry, plus 4 other prospects, and if we were out of contention, I can't envision KW not doing it.

The best interests of the club include staying in business. Fan reaction to trades in a city where the National League team is more glamorous to begin with is a part of staying in business. The White Sox would have to win another World Series to bring a lot of fans back.

It isn't like the White Sox are going to get better by trading veteran talent, which they aren't going to get much for anyway.

scarsofthumper
05-18-2009, 05:30 PM
I think that Buehrle absolutely does have a lot of value, but he probably has more value to us than he would in a trade. If you can get a ridiculous package like the Rangers one described in the earlier post, that's fine, but I don't think that would happen. I love Buehrle, but if I was Jon Daniels, I would not do that deal.
They wouldn't get anything even close to that. Maybe half of that.

soxfan43
05-18-2009, 05:54 PM
If the Sox are totally out of it by late June into July, I think it's 100% that Dotel is gone. Teams are always adding BP help at the deadline. I'd say there would be a good chance JD would be moved as well. Neither of those guys will bring a ton back, but you never know with prospects. I'd doubt Buehrle gets moved but if someone blows you away with a deal, you take it. Fan backlash or not. Thome is untradeable. Konerko might have some value to certain teams but with the economey, I'm not sure he would be that coveted. The wildcard I think is Jenks. His name has been out there before. Plus the Sox seem to be having issues getting him locked down long term. I love Bobby, but I think he's the guy that could bring back a couple of legit MLB prospects to help with the rebuilding. Lights out closers aren't easy to find but if moving Jenks gets you 2 or 3 pieces for the future, I think Kenny would do it. Jenks doesn't exactly have the bodytype you look for in long term health and he has had some arm trouble before. Not saying he's destined for Prior like DL stints but it's something I'm sure Kenny has thought about.

I'd love to see this team get back into contention and play well but if they don't, I would hate to pass up a few trades just because some fans might be pissed off. If the team sucks with veterans or rookies in Aug. and Sept. it doesn't matter, people won't show up either way. If you're out of it, you might as well just take what you can get for Dye and Dotel at least. Better than getting nothing at all this winter.

AZChiSoxFan
05-18-2009, 06:01 PM
The only thing that gives me hope about this season is that similar threads to this one have ended up being looked upon as laughable by the end of the season in the past.

Normally, I would be inclined to agree with you. While I will always follow the Sox on a daily basis regardless of their record, I must say that I agree with the original post. To me, even at this early stage, this team looks worse than the 2007 Sox.

In hindsight, I (we) should have seen this disaster coming. KW was completely content to come into 2009 with no decent options for leadoff hitter, 2nd base, 3rd base, CF, and 2/5 of the rotation. And that was when he thought that Floyd was a decent starter!

This team is full of empty spots and too many players on the 25 man roster who have no business being in the bigs.

That said, I love the Good Guys and will always follow every game and continue to support Ozzie and KW and the fellas.

Craig Grebeck
05-18-2009, 06:07 PM
Normally, I would be inclined to agree with you. While I will always follow the Sox on a daily basis regardless of their record, I must say that I agree with the original post. To me, even at this early stage, this team looks worse than the 2007 Sox.

In hindsight, I (we) should have seen this disaster coming. KW was completely content to come into 2009 with no decent options for leadoff hitter, 2nd base, 3rd base, CF, and 2/5 of the rotation. And that was when he thought that Floyd was a decent starter!

This team is full of empty spots and too many players on the 25 man roster who have no business being in the bigs.

That said, I love the Good Guys and will always follow every game and continue to support Ozzie and KW and the fellas.
If you don't think Chris Getz is a decent option for second base, you need help.

AZChiSoxFan
05-18-2009, 06:17 PM
If you don't think Chris Getz is a decent option for second base, you need help.

My point was that 2nd base (like every other spot I mentioned) was a ? heading into the season. Yes, SO FAR, Getz looks decent. My point stands correct that KW was willing to head into the season with too many ??????

soxyess
05-18-2009, 07:11 PM
anybody change their mind?

JB98
05-18-2009, 07:26 PM
anybody change their mind?

Since yesterday? No.

We'll see where the Sox are in six weeks.

mzh
05-19-2009, 03:30 PM
To support the case that Jenks may be outta here by the deadline, down in Triple-A we have a young reliever named Jon Link... Led all pitchers in the MiLB with 35 saves last season. So Far in 09: 2.41 ERA w/ 4 saves. Not bad at all.

TDog
05-19-2009, 03:45 PM
To support the case that Jenks may be outta here by the deadline, down in Triple-A we have a young reliever named Jon Link... Led all pitchers in the MiLB with 35 saves last season. So Far in 09: 2.41 ERA w/ 4 saves. Not bad at all.

It's interesting how some fans are so upset that their veteran team is playing so badly (with the younger players in general playing worse than the veterans), that they are advocating cutting ties with some of the only players who have been performing this season for players who could have some potential.

"Unloading," the way many are defining it here, would put the Sox on the bottom of the AL Central beyond this season. Probably beyond next.

If Carlos Quentin and Alexei Ramirez were playing up to their potential this season, things, certainly the offense, wouldn't be so bad.

DSpivack
05-19-2009, 03:50 PM
It's interesting how some fans are so upset that their veteran team is playing so badly (with the younger players in general playing worse than the veterans), that they are advocating cutting ties with some of the only players who have been performing this season for players who could have some potential.

"Unloading," the way many are defining it here, would put the Sox on the bottom of the AL Central beyond this season. Probably beyond next.

If Carlos Quentin and Alexei Ramirez were playing up to their potential this season, things, certainly the offense, wouldn't be so bad.

It's much easier to just press the panic button and completely give up than just sit through watching a bad team.

jabrch
05-19-2009, 03:55 PM
The best interests of the club include staying in business. Fan reaction to trades in a city where the National League team is more glamorous to begin with is a part of staying in business. The White Sox would have to win another World Series to bring a lot of fans back.

It isn't like the White Sox are going to get better by trading veteran talent, which they aren't going to get much for anyway.


The White Sox will have no problem staying in business. For all the pissing and moaning some people do, the masses won't stop supporting the team. They may have to cut payroll - but that's easy when you don't tie yourself to long term bad contracts.

Ownership isn't looking to make huge profits on this. They will have no problem remaining in business.

TDog
05-19-2009, 04:06 PM
It's much easier to just press the panic button and completely give up than just sit through watching a bad team.

... so they can watch a bad team for years to come.

voodoochile
05-19-2009, 04:25 PM
... so they can watch a bad team for years to come.

It always feels great to scratch that scab until it rips open...