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Gkern
05-10-2009, 04:30 PM
Just some observations over a month into the season. Might be time to go with the youth movement. Too early you think? We'll here are some reasons why.

#1 Jim Thome. Love the guy. Just can't play anymore. Only hits mistakes. Can't have a .200 hitter in the 4 spot. Team would be better I'm afraid with someone who can make contact or DH Dye, Konerko, or A.J. on their days off.

#2 Fundamentally bad. Can't move runners or score runners with less than 2 outs. Too many bad errors and awful pitching (walking guys, picking corners on 0-2, 1-2 counts)

#3 Are the young guys any worse? Is Gordon Beckham any worse than Posednik? Is Tyler Flowers any worse than Corky Miller? Can Aaron Poerda be any worse than Conteras or Colon? I know Marquez is getting ripped in AAA, but after watching Contreras...cmon. The organization just has to realize certain guys are done. One great performance a month isn't good enough. Colon and Contreras are a combined 2-8. Difference between first and last.

#4 It's never too early for the future. This team is not winning the division, so why not. Get the kids the experience. No reason to wait until September when 20 or the 30+ teams are done and bringing up minor leaguers.

I think the lack of basic fundamental baseball is the really disturbing part. Watching this team get 2-3 hit ever other day by mediocre pitching is really disturbing. (Harrison, Padilla and Millwood) in the Texas series is just ridiculous. There is just no fire in this club. They get down 3-4 runs and the game is over. Time to change things up. I'd rather watch the future play now than watch over the hill guys disappoint night after night.

Frater Perdurabo
05-10-2009, 04:40 PM
I agree with most of these observations.

Thome is just about done. This just happens to non-juicers when they get old. He's had a HOF career but he's just about finished.

The Swisher debacle will haunt us for the next decade. KW turned Ryan Sweeney into Wilson Betemit. :angry:

If the Sox continue to slide into July, back up the truck and ship out Contreras, Colon, Thome, Dye and probably Paulie for whatever KW can get.

DirtySox
05-10-2009, 04:47 PM
Still too early, but I have no qualms with it if we continue playing this way. Tear it on down.

WhiteSox5187
05-10-2009, 04:49 PM
I see little reason for hope unless we can turn things around FAST. This is eerily reminiscent of '07.

Tragg
05-10-2009, 04:58 PM
#3 Are the young guys any worse? Is Gordon Beckham any worse than Posednik? Is Tyler Flowers any worse than Corky Miller? Can Aaron Poerda be any worse than Conteras or Colon?
I don't think that's really the issue with them; the concern is rushing them into roles for which they aren't ready; you rush Poreda up without that secondary pitch and he's a ceiling 5th starter. Better than Contreras? yes, but so what. Same with the other guys. Let's make sure they can play their position and have all of the tools dveloped to hit major league pitching. And I'm thinking that our minor league hitting instruction has got to be better than what's in Ozzie's dugout.

The other thing is that Beckham would be a replacement for Ramirez or Getz, not Pods. Getz is one of the few players proudicing and Ramirez is well-regarded by the organization (some say he should move to CF, but Guillen and Williams seem adamant against it).

Madscout
05-10-2009, 05:09 PM
I just hope they don't try and resign Thome. This team needs a new look, fast. I wouldn't mind keeping Dye for DH for a couple of years, but only that, because I think he won't hit like he is for long. It would be a good idea to get rid of Konerko, and try to get a youth movement going, as the youth on this team have been producing pretty well. I don't know what to do about Alexi, because it could be that last year was a fluke, or that he does better when he is at second or something, but he can't hit his way out of a paper bag right now. Look into getting a good contact good speed hitter for LF, see if BA can produce like he was in CF, and if not, we have Danks. And we need an overhaul of the bullpen, straight up. We can't just keep putting guys who can't make our starting crew and guys that fall out of it in there and expect anything out of it.

I don't want to give up on this year yet, because it would just kill our attendence, which would give JR a reason not to pay for players.

DaveFeelsRight
05-10-2009, 05:10 PM
Why did you compare Beckham to Podsednik?

Rohan
05-10-2009, 05:14 PM
Why did you compare Beckham to Podsednik?

I stopped reading when he said that.

Seriously chill out. We're just in a bit of a dry spot, it happens to teams all the time. We're just getting ours a little early.

Craig Grebeck
05-10-2009, 05:16 PM
There is no reason to bring up the kids right now. Flowers needs to learn how to be an adequate catcher before he hits the majors, and Poreda could still use polishing.

eastchicagosoxfan
05-10-2009, 05:17 PM
I stopped reading when he said that.

Seriously chill out. We're just in a bit of a dry spot, it happens to teams all the time. We're just getting ours a little early.
Dude, the sky is falling. It's not even May 15, but the sky will soon be upon us.

veeter
05-10-2009, 05:18 PM
Two of the Sox main weapons are Alexei and Quentin. I'm confident they will heat up. Being 14-16 and never really playing even two good games in a row, gives me hope. This team has the talent to win the division, and I think they will.

TealTank
05-10-2009, 05:26 PM
Did I read the date wrong? Is is Oct 10th? It is May 10th. If the Sox don't get their act together by the end of May, I can understand this topic. But let's wait and see what happens the rest of this month.

Again, the Sox are 3 games behind the Royals, two in the loss column, before today's game.

Save the Chicken Little act until late May.

LITTLE NELL
05-10-2009, 05:37 PM
Little to early to give up the ship, but when the team is'nt hitting and the starting pitching is suspect it's hard to get excited.
I just wish somehow that we had a real leadoff high OBP guy that can steal a base.
I would start to break up the team if we are still floundering at the end of May.
One more point, playing like we have and only being 2 games under .500 we could be right back in it with a 5 game winning streak, we are due.

veeter
05-10-2009, 05:46 PM
Little to early to give up the ship, but when the team is'nt hitting and the starting pitching is suspect it's hard to get excited.
I just wish somehow that we had a real leadoff high OBP guy that can steal a base.
I would start to break up the team if we are still floundering at the end of May.
One more point, playing like we have and only being 2 games under .500 we could be right back in it with a 5 game winning streak, we are due.Getz has been one of the only bright spots. Fields, Alexei and Quentin have to get going. Thome's hit and miss. Paulie and Jermaine have been just fine.

jamokes
05-10-2009, 05:51 PM
Let's see how Kenny Williams reacts to all of this and see how much patience he has.

It's always tough to say good bye to a veteran, let alone a HOF player/person.

kevingrt
05-10-2009, 06:06 PM
Agree with some in this thread. It's to early to jump ship but this team looks real ugly right now. And the old guys are looking real bad.

infohawk
05-10-2009, 06:08 PM
I think that this team is about a .500 team. They're nothing to be ashamed about, but they probably won't be playing deep into October even if they somehow make the playoffs in a division where 86-89 wins might be enough.

I agree about Thome. His batting average is on an annual decline. I think he could still add some value to a contending team in desperate need of power from the left-side. It doesn't make a lot of sense for the Sox to keep him at the deadline if they consider themselves unlikely to contend. If they don't trade him this year, I doubt he will be here next year (no extension).

KW has done a good job of keeping the team fairly competitive while turning the roster over. The Sox have introduced just enough younger talent to hopefully avoid bottoming out if they trade a few vets. I feel pretty good about guys like Fields, Getz, Nix, Quentin, Danks, and Floyd. Beckham, Flowers, and Poreda will get here soon enough. Buerhrle and A.J. will remain key veterans. I'd like to see KW trade for one or two more young major league-ready arms. If they keep Dye, I'd like to see him DH. I see an argument for and against keeping Paulie. It really matters what you could get for him. If it's a lot, I think you've got to consider moving him.

The team definitely has to get away from too many slow guys in the middle of the order. We've all been saying that for years, though! All-in-all, I like the transition that KW is attempting with this team. We shouldn't forget that the farm system is being successfully rebuilt, too.

I think by next season, KW will have turned almost the entire roster over.

DaveFeelsRight
05-10-2009, 06:24 PM
Agree with some in this thread. It's to early to jump ship but this team looks real ugly right now. And the old guys are looking real bad.What old guys? Thome is only "old guy" who is in a huge slump right now. Dye and Konerko are just fine.

Billy Ashley
05-10-2009, 07:20 PM
It's safe to say I've been very critical in regards to a number of issues relating to the 2009 White Sox.

That said, I believe that this team could contend in a very weak AL Central. If the White Sox can somehow win the division, they've got just about as good of a chance as anyone to win the world series.

On balance, I'd argue this team should be blown up unless the circumstances allow some hope at a title. The weaknesses of the Tigers, Royals, Twins and Indians would give me pause if I were Kenny.

kevingrt
05-10-2009, 07:24 PM
What old guys? Thome is only "old guy" who is in a huge slump right now. Dye and Konerko are just fine.

Contreras, Colon, and Thome I was referring to. PK has actually been our most consistent threat offensively. And JD has had a good season too. So you are right. I was referring to others though.

TomBradley72
05-10-2009, 07:30 PM
Give it another 30 days, into early June....see what you can get for the old guys like Thome, Dye, Konerko, Colon, Linebrink, Dotel...blow it up and start over.

You never know when a team can turn it around, the 1983 White Sox were 10 games under .500 in mid-June, moved Fisk to the 2nd slot, picked up Cruz, the team jelled and took off.

But this team has no chemistry and alot of mediocre or aging players. If either Danks, Buehrle or Jenks go down....we will sink below 2007 very quickly.

Soxfest
05-10-2009, 07:33 PM
A team that has trouble scoring cannot go game after game getting 3 hits in an inning and not score Dye, Konerko and Thome back to back is not working anymore, Sox have done this numerous times already. Sox as they are currently constructed today have NO chance at postseason play!

DonnieDarko
05-10-2009, 07:36 PM
Why do I get the feeling that this is turning into 2007 all over again?

Jurr
05-10-2009, 07:50 PM
Why do I get the feeling that this is turning into 2007 all over again?

Well, 2007 was an injury festival, as well. The good thing about this version is that instead of players like Andy Gonzalez playing, the Sox can get experience for players with upside. I believe that younger players could respond to Ozzie a lot better than vets with huge contracts. In 2005, all of the guys had something to prove. Pierzynski was fresh off the San Fran episode, Paulie was entering a contract year, Dye was coming off big injuries, etc. Young blood needs to be infused into the organization, and we have loads to pick from. I think it will be entertaining to watch Getz, Quentin, Danks, Floyd, Beckham, and Nix continue to grow and lead this team into the next decade.

As it stands, this team is much closer to the cellar than it is to contention.

Gavin
05-10-2009, 08:00 PM
It worries me that this team is even worse out there on the field than they are on paper.

JB98
05-10-2009, 08:21 PM
This thread is an embarrassment to WSI.

No matter how much you guys hate Thome and Konerko, it doesn't change the fact that guys like Beckham and Flowers ARE NOT READY FOR THE ****ING BIG LEAGUES!!!!!!!!!!!!!

I can't emphasize that enough. We should not be rushing prospects to the majors just because impatient fans don't like the fact that Jim Thome is off to a slow start.

We're three games out of first on May 10, and people are already ready to cash in the season. I'm concerned about the poor play we are seeing, but it's way, way too early to think about calling it quits for the year.

DaveFeelsRight
05-10-2009, 08:36 PM
No matter how much you guys hate Thome and Konerko, it doesn't change the fact that guys like Beckham and Flowers ARE NOT READY FOR THE ****ING BIG LEAGUES!!!!!!!!!!!!!Yup. Ozzie said it best. If we see Beckham up here then we're in trouble.

LITTLE NELL
05-10-2009, 08:38 PM
Give it another 30 days, into early June....see what you can get for the old guys like Thome, Dye, Konerko, Colon, Linebrink, Dotel...blow it up and start over.

You never know when a team can turn it around, the 1983 White Sox were 10 games under .500 in mid-June, moved Fisk to the 2nd slot, picked up Cruz, the team jelled and took off.

But this team has no chemistry and alot of mediocre or aging players. If either Danks, Buehrle or Jenks go down....we will sink below 2007 very quickly.
Just to set the record straight, the low point of the 83 Sox was 16-24 on May 26th-8 games under.

WhiteSox5187
05-10-2009, 08:39 PM
Give it another 30 days, into early June....see what you can get for the old guys like Thome, Dye, Konerko, Colon, Linebrink, Dotel...blow it up and start over.

You never know when a team can turn it around, the 1983 White Sox were 10 games under .500 in mid-June, moved Fisk to the 2nd slot, picked up Cruz, the team jelled and took off.

But this team has no chemistry and alot of mediocre or aging players. If either Danks, Buehrle or Jenks go down....we will sink below 2007 very quickly.

We can have those guys be healthy all year but unless guys like Floyd and Alexei start to come around (and Quentin starts to hit more consistently, but he's coming around) and if the offense doesn't improve it's situational hitting - we will be at a 2007 level even with those three guys. If one of them gets hurt...man, you're looking at late 1980s bad.

Noneck
05-10-2009, 08:42 PM
Just to set the record straight, the low point of the 83 Sox was 16-24 on May 26th-8 games under.
In your wildest dream , Does this team look like they could do what the 83 team did? Please remember the starting rotations when you go into the trance.

LITTLE NELL
05-10-2009, 08:47 PM
In your wildest dream , Does this team look like they could do what the 83 team did? Please remember the starting rotations when you go into the trance.
I just stated the record, this team is not capable of reaching 99 wins like the 83 Sox. I still think the 83 team was the best Sox team in my lifetime.

JohnTucker0814
05-10-2009, 08:50 PM
Why do I get the feeling that this is turning into 2007 all over again?

If it takes another 2007 to get another prospect as good as Gordan Beckham, I'd be just fine with it as long as next year looks like 2008!

Just saying!

JB98
05-10-2009, 08:54 PM
I just stated the record, this team is not capable reaching 99 wins like the 83 Sox. I still think the 83 team was the best Sox team in my lifetime.

And it doesn't really matter that this team is not capable of winning 99 games.

The real question is, are they capable of winning 86-88? That might be enough to win this division.

This club has to be measured against the 2009 Royals, 2009 Twins, 2009 Tigers and 2009 Indians.

BleacherBandit
05-10-2009, 08:55 PM
I just stated the record, this team is not capable reaching 99 wins like the 83 Sox. I still think the 83 team was the best Sox team in my lifetime.

The 2005 Sox won exactly as many games. Alas, the these Sox won't be able to live up to their glory as well. But we're only asking them to contend the whole year, and whatever that yields in terms of record.

dickallen15
05-10-2009, 09:10 PM
Just some observations over a month into the season. Might be time to go with the youth movement. Too early you think? We'll here are some reasons why.

#1 Jim Thome. Love the guy. Just can't play anymore. Only hits mistakes. Can't have a .200 hitter in the 4 spot. Team would be better I'm afraid with someone who can make contact or DH Dye, Konerko, or A.J. on their days off.

#2 Fundamentally bad. Can't move runners or score runners with less than 2 outs. Too many bad errors and awful pitching (walking guys, picking corners on 0-2, 1-2 counts)

#3 Are the young guys any worse? Is Gordon Beckham any worse than Posednik? Is Tyler Flowers any worse than Corky Miller? Can Aaron Poerda be any worse than Conteras or Colon? I know Marquez is getting ripped in AAA, but after watching Contreras...cmon. The organization just has to realize certain guys are done. One great performance a month isn't good enough. Colon and Contreras are a combined 2-8. Difference between first and last.

#4 It's never too early for the future. This team is not winning the division, so why not. Get the kids the experience. No reason to wait until September when 20 or the 30+ teams are done and bringing up minor leaguers.

I think the lack of basic fundamental baseball is the really disturbing part. Watching this team get 2-3 hit ever other day by mediocre pitching is really disturbing. (Harrison, Padilla and Millwood) in the Texas series is just ridiculous. There is just no fire in this club. They get down 3-4 runs and the game is over. Time to change things up. I'd rather watch the future play now than watch over the hill guys disappoint night after night.

At least the Sox aren't the Yankees. Texiera is hitting .198 and has over $100 million left on his contract. By your standards, he is done.

EnglishChiSox
05-10-2009, 09:14 PM
Still too early as most have said but Thome has gotten off to slow starts the last 3 years and his numbers are always there at the end. I don't think this team the way it's set up is good enough to win the division by a clear margin but it's not 90 loss bad either, around .500 and if Buerhle, Danks and Floyd can pitch like they can do at a decent level then the Sox have a good chance of staying in the race in this division full of mediocre teams.

dickallen15
05-10-2009, 09:14 PM
Just to set the record straight, the low point of the 83 Sox was 16-24 on May 26th-8 games under.
And wasn't Fisk hitting below .200? Wasn't he in the top 4 of the MVP when the season ended? I love how many posts say this guy is done or that guy is done. It happens every year with the same players. I guess the same people keep doing it because they are bound to be correct eventually.

TealTank
05-10-2009, 09:40 PM
And wasn't Fisk hitting below .200? Wasn't he in the top 4 of the MVP when the season ended? I love how many posts say this guy is done or that guy is done. It happens every year with the same players. I guess the same people keep doing it because they are bound to be correct eventually.


Yes. Fisk finished fourth, behind Ripken and Murray.

I understand WSI gives people a forum to vent but ****, some people need to chill the hell out.

hi im skot
05-10-2009, 10:00 PM
Rough start, but there's plenty of time to turn it around. Konerko and Dye are hitting well, Getz has been a pleasant surprise, and Quentin his just missed homers in his last two games.

Buehrle and Danks have been fun to watch, Colon has done his job (for the most part), and the bullpen has been solid overall.

Yes, I've sat through three our four of the worst games of the season, but it's way too early to give up on these guys. Like other posters, I've had some flashbacks to 2007, but there are plenty of positives.

I'm not happy with how the Sox are playing right now, but what's the point of throwing in the towel now?

Stay optimistic, folks. I think we'll have an entertaining summer.

Noneck
05-10-2009, 10:03 PM
I understand WSI gives people a forum to vent but ****, some people need to chill the hell out.
The problem was the mentioning of the 83 team in this thread even tho it was not a comparison. This team in no way shape or form compares to that team, no matter what records were at this time of season.

The 83 team should not be mentioned in any way with this team except they were both a Chicago White Sox team.

Dick Allen
05-10-2009, 10:08 PM
As they say, folks, it's a marathon, not a sprint. As much as I am discouraged by this team, it's capable of doing some really good things if we give it some time.

I_Liked_Manuel
05-10-2009, 10:24 PM
You have to at least wait until the guys start to hit before you think about trading them. I'm sure there's a huge market for a 38 year old DH that's making $13mm and currently hitting .198.....

Brian26
05-10-2009, 10:36 PM
Yes. Fisk finished fourth, behind Ripken and Murray.

I think you meant this, but Fisk finished third that year behind those two evil Orioles.

Jurr
05-10-2009, 10:38 PM
As they say, folks, it's a marathon, not a sprint. As much as I am discouraged by this team, it's capable of doing some really good things if we give it some time.

Well, this team better find a fifth starter, another guy to step in when Colon breaks down, and the sluggers better get to work. This division is flawed, but our offense is absolutely horrible.
You would like to think that these players show up strictly to win. Well, that's half true. Your most motivated players are looking for that big payday. We need more of those guys. We have too many guys that are just stealing the back end of a long contract.

Risk
05-10-2009, 10:42 PM
Even by WSI pant-pisser standards, this thread is an embarrassment. Whoever started it should receive a kendo stick to the head.

Risk

Brian26
05-10-2009, 10:46 PM
Even by WSI pant-pisser standards, this thread is an embarrassment. Whoever started it should receive a kendo stick to the head.

Risk

:welcome:

cards press box
05-10-2009, 10:52 PM
The Swisher debacle will haunt us for the next decade. KW turned Ryan Sweeney into Wilson Betemit. :angry:


Yes, if I had to choose between them, I would rather have Ryan Sweeney than Betemit. But Sweeney, like Betemit, is a complimetary player and not someone to build a championship team around. If the Sox ultimatelty develop a strong center fielder -- hopefully, Jordan Danks -- then this deal won't haunt the Sox at all. In any event, it's not going to haunt the Sox in the long run.

There is no reason to bring up the kids right now. Flowers needs to learn how to be an adequate catcher before he hits the majors, and Poreda could still use polishing.

I agree with this statement. Birmingham is 20-8 and playing great. The Sox will benefit from having their prime talent develop together on this top notch minor league squad. Let this Birmingham team play together and the Sox will be the prime beneficiary in the future.

When the Birmingham core does arrive in Chicago, the Sox may have their next great ballclub.

What old guys? Thome is only "old guy" who is in a huge slump right now. Dye and Konerko are just fine.

Dye and Konerko are playing fine right now. The problem with the Sox that only a handful of them, including Dye and Konerko, are hitting or getting on base with any consistency. With few to no baserunners, the Sox are not scoring any runs. That is essentially the problem.

gr8mexico
05-10-2009, 10:55 PM
http://7duckets.files.wordpress.com/2008/09/white-flag.jpg

WhiteSox5187
05-10-2009, 11:04 PM
Even by WSI pant-pisser standards, this thread is an embarrassment. Whoever started it should receive a kendo stick to the head.

Risk

Ah yes, the old "Anyone who thinks the Sox have holes in their team is a pants pissing dark cloud" argument.

Frater Perdurabo
05-10-2009, 11:07 PM
Yes, if I had to choose between them, I would rather have Ryan Sweeney than Betemit. But Sweeney, like Betemit, is a complimetary player and not someone to build a championship team around. If the Sox ultimatelty develop a strong center fielder -- hopefully, Jordan Danks -- then this deal won't haunt the Sox at all. In any event, it's not going to haunt the Sox in the long run.

We would be a much better team with Sweeney (or a Sweeney/BA platoon) in CF. You're right that Sweeney is a complementary player, but he can be a starter on a contending team, whereas Betemit is Rob Mackowiak with the bat and Frank Thomas with the glove.

I'm not panicking. One permutation is that the Sox might continue to slump into July. If that happens, then it's time to dump the vets. But I'm still hopeful they turn it around and are buyers at the deadline.

Frater Perdurabo
05-10-2009, 11:13 PM
KW turned Ryan Sweeney into Wilson Betemit. :angry:

I'd be happy if KW could trade Wilson Betemit straight up for Wilson Phillips (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gcNyk54b3ZU).

Risk
05-10-2009, 11:49 PM
Ah yes, the old "Anyone who thinks the Sox have holes in their team is a pants pissing dark cloud" argument.

Not at all. More like "anyone who thinks the season is over on MAY 10th with a 14-16 record that the team should be blown up in a winnable AL Central is a pants pissing dark cloud" argument.

Risk

thomas35forever
05-10-2009, 11:51 PM
I'm not throwing in the towel on 2009 yet. I still think the hitting will come around and the pitching also has a chance. We can't survive on Buehrle and Danks all year though. It takes four or five solid guys in the rotation to win something and right now, the Sox are lacking in that area.

The bottom line is if we're still playing like this a month from now, then I'll be resigned to the fact that this is a mediocre year at best.

Rohan
05-11-2009, 01:23 AM
this thread is an embarrassment to wsi.

No matter how much you guys hate thome and konerko, it doesn't change the fact that guys like beckham and flowers are not ready for the ****ing big leagues!!!!!!!!!!!!!

I can't emphasize that enough. We should not be rushing prospects to the majors just because impatient fans don't like the fact that jim thome is off to a slow start.

We're three games out of first on may 10, and people are already ready to cash in the season. I'm concerned about the poor play we are seeing, but it's way, way too early to think about calling it quits for the year.

thank you!

Frater Perdurabo
05-11-2009, 07:13 AM
How would things look with Jon Garland in the rotation?

Obviously we don't yet know who the Sox will draft with the compensation pick they received for losing Cabrera, and we don't know if Garland would have re-signed with the Sox after his contract expired.

What we do know right now, however, is that it certainly would help simply to have one more experienced starting pitcher putting up a "league average" ERA in the 5th spot.

Illini Stripes
05-11-2009, 08:38 AM
This thread is an embarrassment to WSI.

No matter how much you guys hate Thome and Konerko, it doesn't change the fact that guys like Beckham and Flowers ARE NOT READY FOR THE ****ING BIG LEAGUES!!!!!!!!!!!!!


Where are people hearing that these two players are ready for the bigs? From our on air coverage? Spring training performance? Is Ozzie saying that he would like these two player on his club now?? I guess I'm asking why these two players are always brought up by fans when the team or rostered player is in a funk?

Craig Grebeck
05-11-2009, 08:41 AM
How would things look with Jon Garland in the rotation?

Obviously we don't yet know who the Sox will draft with the compensation pick they received for losing Cabrera, and we don't know if Garland would have re-signed with the Sox after his contract expired.

What we do know right now, however, is that it certainly would help simply to have one more experienced starting pitcher putting up a "league average" ERA in the 5th spot.
Garland for Cabrera was an absolute steal for the Sox.

ChiSoxGirl
05-11-2009, 08:51 AM
This thread is an embarrassment to WSI.

No matter how much you guys hate Thome and Konerko, it doesn't change the fact that guys like Beckham and Flowers ARE NOT READY FOR THE ****ING BIG LEAGUES!!!!!!!!!!!!!

I can't emphasize that enough. We should not be rushing prospects to the majors just because impatient fans don't like the fact that Jim Thome is off to a slow start.

We're three games out of first on May 10, and people are already ready to cash in the season. I'm concerned about the poor play we are seeing, but it's way, way too early to think about calling it quits for the year.

I couldn't agree with this entire post more if I tried. You DO NOT want to rush the guys in the minor leagues. This was discussed a couple weeks ago, but do the names Mark Johnson, Matt Guerrier, and Josh Fogg ring a bell (just to name a few)? They're all guys who saw the Major Leagues earlier than they should have, therefore resulting in sub-par Major League careers in a White Sox uniform. Guerrier has gone on to other clubs and had relatively decent success, but the other two... not so much.

I don't know if it's just me or what, but does it seem to anyone else that people are ready to jump off the ledge sooner than usual? I've been a Sox fan for 20 years and I just don't remember people panicking this much during the second week of May. I know expectations are through the roof since 2005- as they should be- but the constant desire to fire this guy, fire that guy, back up the truck, or whatever else is tough for me to understand.

I'm not a Polyanna by any means; I'm more than aware of the fact that this team has issues than anything. What could very well baffle me the most is how they can't hit pitchers whose ERA are over four or five; they make the guy look like Cy Young reincarnated! However, this team has historically hit poorly when the weather has been cooler and save a few days here & there, it's been pretty cool and sometimes downright uncomfortable at the ballpark so far. When the weather finally breaks and we start to see some consistently warm temperatures, then let's reevaluate the hitting. If guys like Thome, The Stick (Ramirez), and Quentin still aren't hitting or don't have averages somewhere closer to what we're used to seeing, then we can start seriously discussing backing up the truck and preparing for 2010 and beyond.

For now, my advice is to just take one game at a time. At the end of the day, this is still baseball, our favorite game. We waited six long, cold months for it to make its return and it's back, so let's enjoy and embrace it! :smile:

Dan H
05-11-2009, 09:18 AM
I agree that May 10 is way to early to panic especially when it comes to calling up young players too soon only to ruin their development. But this team has been shut out five times and has scored one run four times. That stinks and I don't want to hear anything about the weather. Everybody has to hit in this weather. Getting manhandled by Texas pitching is not a good sign.

The main fact is that this team has a small margin of error if they are going to have a successful season. Already Contreras hasn't worked out. Colon hasn't been bad but I worry every time he makes a start. The offense can't wait too much longer to turn it around.

I don't believe in the "back up the truck" philosophy or making rash moves after 30 games. But it isn't too early to think about the long term direction of the franchise. Even if things turn around, there is no way that this is an elite American League team.

asindc
05-11-2009, 09:43 AM
Just some observations over a month into the season. Might be time to go with the youth movement. Too early you think? We'll here are some reasons why.

#1 Jim Thome. Love the guy. Just can't play anymore. Only hits mistakes. Can't have a .200 hitter in the 4 spot. Team would be better I'm afraid with someone who can make contact or DH Dye, Konerko, or A.J. on their days off.

#2 Fundamentally bad. Can't move runners or score runners with less than 2 outs. Too many bad errors and awful pitching (walking guys, picking corners on 0-2, 1-2 counts)

#3 Are the young guys any worse? Is Gordon Beckham any worse than Posednik? Is Tyler Flowers any worse than Corky Miller? Can Aaron Poerda be any worse than Conteras or Colon? I know Marquez is getting ripped in AAA, but after watching Contreras...cmon. The organization just has to realize certain guys are done. One great performance a month isn't good enough. Colon and Contreras are a combined 2-8. Difference between first and last.

#4 It's never too early for the future. This team is not winning the division, so why not. Get the kids the experience. No reason to wait until September when 20 or the 30+ teams are done and bringing up minor leaguers.

I think the lack of basic fundamental baseball is the really disturbing part. Watching this team get 2-3 hit ever other day by mediocre pitching is really disturbing. (Harrison, Padilla and Millwood) in the Texas series is just ridiculous. There is just no fire in this club. They get down 3-4 runs and the game is over. Time to change things up. I'd rather watch the future play now than watch over the hill guys disappoint night after night.

First of all, welcome to WSI.

Now for your points:

1) Thome's contract expires at the end of the season. I would consider moving him down to #6 in the order, otherwise let him do his thing. He is declining, but he won't be on the Sox next year.

2) Big problem that will hopefully be solved with the younger guys getting better as the season goes on. The older guys are what they are at this point.

3) As almost everyone else has said, DO NOT RUSH THE YOUNG GUYS!! It rarely works out in the long run.

4) See #3.

oldcomiskey
05-11-2009, 09:43 AM
while I agree in principle to some of what was said, Colon really hasnt pitched THAT bad, problem is he aint been THAT good either. And what is all this love for Swisher all of the sudden. I, too, was glad when we got him. But I go back to what Paul Richards said. Never trade for a guy who hits you well, for obvious reasons. Swisher was a complete bust here. He was selfish and a crybaby, He had to go. So did Cabrera. Get over it and move on.

cws05champ
05-11-2009, 10:16 AM
I agree that May 10 is way to early to panic especially when it comes to calling up young players too soon only to ruin their development. But this team has been shut out five times and has scored one run four times. That stinks and I don't want to hear anything about the weather. Everybody has to hit in this weather. Getting manhandled by Texas pitching is not a good sign.

The main fact is that this team has a small margin of error if they are going to have a successful season. Already Contreras hasn't worked out. Colon hasn't been bad but I worry every time he makes a start. The offense can't wait too much longer to turn it around.

I don't believe in the "back up the truck" philosophy or making rash moves after 30 games. But it isn't too early to think about the long term direction of the franchise. Even if things turn around, there is no way that this is an elite American League team.
I agree with everything you said 100%. It is tough to watch this team sometimes over the last three years. But it is still too early to blow this thing up. Thome will go on a hot steak and homer a lot at some point, TCQ's BABIP is .213 vs last year at .280 and a league average around .300 even though his line drive % has increased. Konerko and Dye have been decent although I would kill to see Thome place one down the 3B line against the shift or have Dye/Konerko bunt once in an appropriate situation. I know some will rip me saying you don't have your middle of the order guys bunt....but these little things of execution are what ignite rallies sometime and with the way we have been going so far this year it needs to be done. Alexei will turn it around...he did this time last year, and I beleive he will get hot as the weather does.

Contreras needs to go down to work on his location, call it a bad toe or something, but he should not be on the 25 man roster until his location improves with the 4 seam and split. Give his starts to Richard/Broadway to see what you have 3 turns through. Colon has not been that bad and could be a trade chip if we fall out in the next 6 weeks.

Lets see what we have in 5-6 weeks and then re-evaluate the season...it's still too early to blow it up because you can't realistically trade guys at this point anyways.

ChiSoxFan81
05-11-2009, 10:20 AM
I'd rather not pay for Sox games to watch the Charlotte Knights.

doublem23
05-11-2009, 10:33 AM
The Swisher debacle will haunt us for the next decade. KW turned Ryan Sweeney into Wilson Betemit. :angry:


Even for you, Frater, this is a reach. Gio sucks and Fausto's arm blew up last year. Sweeney, yes, probably would be starting on the Sox this year in CF, but he's not a world-class player that we'll be missing for a decade.

C'mon.

asindc
05-11-2009, 10:40 AM
I agree with everything you said 100%. It is tough to watch this team sometimes over the last three years. But it is still too early to blow this thing up. Thome will go on a hot steak and homer a lot at some point, TCQ's BABIP is .213 vs last year at .280 and a league average around .300 even though his line drive % has increased. Konerko and Dye have been decent although I would kill to see Thome place one down the 3B line against the shift or have Dye/Konerko bunt once in an appropriate situation. I know some will rip me saying you don't have your middle of the order guys bunt....but these little things of execution are what ignite rallies sometime and with the way we have been going so far this year it needs to be done. Alexei will turn it around...he did this time last year, and I beleive he will get hot as the weather does.

Contreras needs to go down to work on his location, call it a bad toe or something, but he should not be on the 25 man roster until his location improves with the 4 seam and split. Give his starts to Richard/Broadway to see what you have 3 turns through. Colon has not been that bad and could be a trade chip if we fall out in the next 6 weeks.

Lets see what we have in 5-6 weeks and then re-evaluate the season...it's still too early to blow it up because you can't realistically trade guys at this point anyways.

I agree with this 100%, especially in Thome's situation with the shift. Teams are practically daring him to bunt down the 3B line. **** the purists. I say score runs however you can. If your 4, 5, and 6 hitters have to bunt someone in from 3B, so be it. A run is a run.

Chez
05-11-2009, 10:45 AM
I couldn't agree with this entire post more if I tried. You DO NOT want to rush the guys in the minor leagues. This was discussed a couple weeks ago, but do the names Mark Johnson, Matt Guerrier, and Josh Fogg ring a bell (just to name a few)? They're all guys who saw the Major Leagues earlier than they should have, therefore resulting in sub-par Major League careers in a White Sox uniform. Guerrier has gone on to other clubs and had relatively decent success, but the other two... not so much.



FWIW, Guerrier never appeared in the majors for the White Sox. He was traded to the Pirates for Marte in 2002 and then made his MLB debut for the Twins two years later.

Alexei4president
05-11-2009, 11:25 AM
i think Gkern should shut the **** up we are 14-16 you act like we havent won a dang game seriously man... i dont wanna sound rude but really man

jabrch
05-11-2009, 11:37 AM
This thread is an embarrassment to WSI.

You are surprised to see this thread?

Law11
05-11-2009, 11:37 AM
Incoming...

jabrch
05-11-2009, 11:39 AM
How would things look with Jon Garland in the rotation?

Obviously we don't yet know who the Sox will draft with the compensation pick they received for losing Cabrera, and we don't know if Garland would have re-signed with the Sox after his contract expired.

What we do know right now, however, is that it certainly would help simply to have one more experienced starting pitcher putting up a "league average" ERA in the 5th spot.


If management wanted Gar, we could have pursued him in FA this offseason - cheaply. They didn't.

kitekrazy
05-11-2009, 11:39 AM
1) Thome's contract expires at the end of the season. I would consider moving him down to #6 in the order, otherwise let him do his thing. He is declining, but he won't be on the Sox next year.



I'm afraid they'll trade Dye and sign Thome cheap for next year.

soxinem1
05-11-2009, 12:07 PM
In your wildest dream , Does this team look like they could do what the 83 team did? Please remember the starting rotations when you go into the trance.

The 1983 White Sox began the year with disaray in the bullpen, lineup, field, and the rotation.

Bannister, Dotson, and Hoyt were all having difficulties up until June 1983. The most effective starter early in 1983 was none other than Jerry Koosman, who was near 40. It wasn't until mid-June before this group showed any sign of life, which was right about the time Koos came back down to earth.

Dennis Lamp began as a starter, wanted to be a starter, and was pissed at LaRussa for putting him in the bullpen full-time. When Britt Burns returned from his issues, Lamp was put in the bullpen and would go on to lead the team in saves.

Additionally, Tom Paciorek called out LaRussa in the press, ripping him and the team to shreds.

That team also lost its closer in his first game on the mound.

The early season defense was beyond brutal. Lorenzo Gray at 3B, Tony Bernazard at 2B, Greg Walker at 1B, and Scott Fletcher at SS all had Iron Gloves early on. Once they dumped Gray, benched Fletcher, and put Dybzinski at SS and Vance Law at 3B the defense picked it up.

Early on, only Ron Kittle was hitting. Bull, Baines, Fisk (especially!!), Rudy Law, and Wimpy were as close to automatic out as could have been imagined.

My point is that maybe some tweaking will be needed but to blow it up is way too premature, just like it was with that team. The press and fans had LaRussa fired by mid-May, Fisk and Luzinski washed up, and Bannister as a free-agent bust. Glad they didn't get their wishes......

I would replace Contreras with Richard for now, and Ramirez with Nix, let Getz play full-time, and bring up Poreda as a second lefty in the pen so he can work on his secondary pitches at this level. Guillen can first use him in long relief situations, then gradually change his workload.

If at the end of June this team is on life support, then yes, Paulie, Colon, Pods, Linebrink, and Dotel need to be shopped and dealt. But let this group get more than 30 games in before trashing it.

asindc
05-11-2009, 12:13 PM
I'm afraid they'll trade Dye and sign Thome cheap for next year.

That is a possibility, but at this point I don't see it happening.

Jenks4Prez
05-11-2009, 12:24 PM
AMEN TO A FIRESALE!

This team is horrible!

JB98
05-11-2009, 01:10 PM
You are surprised to see this thread?

No, not surprised.

I'm furious with the way the team is playing, but it's just preposterous to argue that we should be trading off veterans and replacing them with a bunch of kids who have never played above Double-A.

So, I just decided to point out how embarrassing this thread is.

everafan
05-11-2009, 02:20 PM
Agree with some in this thread. It's to early to jump ship but this team looks real ugly right now. And the old guys are looking real bad.

I assume you are referring to the offense so did you really mean guys (as in plural)? Thome is struggling, but Konerko, AJ and Dye look fine.

BTW - Thome started to pick it up at the end of May last year and became a very good hitter with RISP last year, only behind TCQ and Ramirez. So I'm not ready to give up on him just yet.

jdm2662
05-11-2009, 03:36 PM
Here's my question to the masses. If the Sox are hovering around .500 by the trade deadline and only three games out, would you call for a fire sale? I seem to remember an extremely flawed team that was in a similar situation in 1997. The Sox pulled the trigger, and the whole fan base went ape ****. I will be the first one to tell you this team isn't very good and flawed. However, let's wait until July before we give up on the season.

jabrch
05-11-2009, 03:58 PM
So, I just decided to point out how embarrassing this thread is.

I agree 100%.

doublem23
05-11-2009, 04:02 PM
AMEN TO A FIRESALE!

This team is horrible!

Horrible? So far they're dissapointing, but horrible? 2-3 lucky bounces their way and they're above .500, maybe tied for first.

Keep some perspective, folks.

That said, if someone comes'a'calling with an attractive offer for Thome, Konerko, Dye, etc. I'd be willing to part with any of them. Honestly, the only guys I wouldn't trade (at the MLB level) are Buehrle, Danks, Quentin, and Getz.

doublem23
05-11-2009, 04:04 PM
This thread is an embarrassment to WSI.

I really don't see what makes your opinion valid and people with differing ideas about this team's direction not. :shrug:

Noneck
05-11-2009, 04:06 PM
Honestly, the only guys I wouldn't trade (at the MLB level) are Buehrle, Danks, Quentin, and Getz.

Ironically those and Jenks would be the only ones you would get much for.

voodoochile
05-11-2009, 04:07 PM
Here's my question to the masses. If the Sox are hovering around .500 by the trade deadline and only three games out, would you call for a fire sale? I seem to remember an extremely flawed team that was in a similar situation in 1997. The Sox pulled the trigger, and the whole fan base went ape ****. I will be the first one to tell you this team isn't very good and flawed. However, let's wait until July before we give up on the season.


No, because that means the team that is in front of them is pretty average too. Why sell low when you can pick up some pieces that might put you over the hump? Next year Thome and Contreras are off the books regardless That's $18M right there. If the Sox don't pick up Dye (I hope they do) then it's another 11M free and clear. Add in the kids who are coming and things are in pretty good shape for the next few years. They might need as little as a veteran OF and a starting pitcher next year to be back in the hunt for the pennant again and that's as of this point in time prior to any trades. Trade for someone who will stick around for a few years and that means even less they need.

Anytime you are that close, you go for it. I doubt KW has it in him to white flag it if they are still in contention. He has seen the benefits of always going for the win as has JR. I doubt they are going back to the old, broken, proven ineffective and highly criticized model of the Scheuler era. In years past they've been able to acquire pitchers at the deadline who stuck around for a few years and helped the team more than in the year they were acquired. I could see KW ensuring that he would be given a chance to talk to a pitcher about an extension before making a trade, but I doubt he'd dump Thome and Dye for peanuts just to save a few bucks...

doublem23
05-11-2009, 04:09 PM
Ironically those and Jenks would be the only ones you would get much for.

I know, but those guys are what we're building around for the next few years. There's an awful lot of talent in the Sox system, so there's no need to completely nuke this team and start from Square 1.

If nobody has a good offer for the Sox, I would hope they just ride it out. Really, what would be accomplished by trading away TCQ or John Danks? You just set yourself back 3 years for no reason.

thedudeabides
05-11-2009, 04:12 PM
I know, but those guys are what we're building around for the next few years. There's an awful lot of talent in the Sox system, so there's no need to completely nuke this team and start from Square 1.

If nobody has a good offer for the Sox, I would hope they just ride it out. Really, what would be accomplished by trading away TCQ or John Danks? You just set yourself back 3 years for no reason.


Your three year time frame is off. If trading Swisher set us back a decade, trading Quentin and Danks would set us back a century.

kittle42
05-11-2009, 04:12 PM
I really don't see what makes your opinion valid and people with differing ideas about this team's direction not. :shrug:

Because per the "rational" folks at WSI, one cannot evaluate the season until the team is mathematically eliminated, it seems. This is exaggeration, but comes closer and closer to the real line of argument each season.

Why evaluate offseason moves when the offseason isn't over? Why evaluate in spring training? Games are not played on paper.
Why evaluate weaknesses in the first 6 weeks? The games play on til October.
Meanwhile, if this team was, say, 18-11 right now, the many of those who blast some folks for being "neagtive too quick" would be wonbdering about World Series chances.

voodoochile
05-11-2009, 04:14 PM
I really don't see what makes your opinion valid and people with differing ideas about this team's direction not. :shrug:

I agree it's embarrassing to suggest that calling up Flowers and Beckham because they cannot be worse than the players they'd replace is a good idea. No mention or account of player development in the thought process, just call 'em up to ride the bench or call 'em up and throw them to the wolves and hope for the best.

I'm not surprised people are willing to bail ship in early-mid-May. The same thing happened last year a week or so earlier, but IMO, that's kind of embarrassing too.

I'll put it more succinctly...

:threadsucks

and no, that's not because people have different opinions, it's because the ideas put forth are lacking any serious objective thinking.

Noneck
05-11-2009, 04:14 PM
Really, what would be accomplished by trading away TCQ or John Danks?

Considering the small amount of money they will be costing the Sox for quite a few years ahead, they are untouchable, so don't worry.

kittle42
05-11-2009, 04:15 PM
and no, that's not because people have different opinions, it's because the ideas put forth are lacking any serious objective thinking.

Despite what I stated above, I still agree with this.

Noneck
05-11-2009, 04:18 PM
In years past they've been able to acquire pitchers at the deadline who stuck around for a few years and helped the team more than in the year they were acquired.


I can't remember who you are speaking of, please refresh my memory.

doublem23
05-11-2009, 04:23 PM
Despite what I stated above, I still agree with this.

I agree with VC, too, I just get tired of folks who constantly slam every thread that dare not fit into their view as being an "embarrassment." News flash, folks, we only have 2 consistent starters, 2 hit or miss guys, and 1 black hole now (and god forbid if any of them get hurt). Our bullpen is decent at the back, but absolutely terrible at the front, our shortstop is having a sophomore meltdown, our DH looks like there's a piano attached to his bat, we're not hitting any homers right now (because it was terrible last year when we did), and our offense is basically hot garbage right now (by my count, we have been held to 1 run or fewer 9 times in the first 30 games of the year).

Especially if you weren't wild about the direction KW and Ozzie wanted to go this offseason, there is plenty to be alarmed about. The only reason this team still looks like a contender is because the two teams we're chasing are only slightly less flawed than we are right now.

doublem23
05-11-2009, 04:26 PM
I can't remember who you are speaking of, please refresh my memory.

40% of our rotation in 2005 were acquired via in-seasond deals of June and July, 2004 respectively.

http://nyyinsider.info/nyyinsider/data/upimages/FreddyGarcia.jpg http://image.examiner.com/images/blog/wysiwyg/image/qZ5VDl8W.jpg

voodoochile
05-11-2009, 04:26 PM
I can't remember who you are speaking of, please refresh my memory.

Contreras and Garcia in 2004.

asindc
05-11-2009, 04:33 PM
Because per the "rational" folks at WSI, one cannot evaluate the season until the team is mathematically eliminated, it seems. This is exaggeration, but comes closer and closer to the real line of argument each season.

Why evaluate offseason moves when the offseason isn't over? Why evaluate in spring training? Games are not played on paper.
Why evaluate weaknesses in the first 6 weeks? The games play on til October.
Meanwhile, if this team was, say, 18-11 right now, the many of those who blast some folks for being "neagtive too quick" would be wonbdering about World Series chances.

If this was an NFL season, we would be talking about blowing up the team after game 3 because of a 1-2 record.

If this was an NBA or NHL season, we would be talking about blowing up the team after game 15 because of a 7-8 record.


Some of us just view it from a different perspective, one that accounts for how long an MLB season is. If the Sox had posted the same record with no one missing games for injury, then I could see a little merit in the "they're doomed" perspective. But with Lillibridge, Pods, Betemit, and Nix playing a lot more than they would have if everyone was healthy, I don't see the cause for panic.

Konerko05
05-11-2009, 04:33 PM
I agree with VC, too, I just get tired of folks who constantly slam every thread that dare not fit into their view as being an "embarrassment." News flash, folks, we only have 2 consistent starters, 2 hit or miss guys, and 1 black hole now (and god forbid if any of them get hurt). Our bullpen is decent at the back, but absolutely terrible at the front, our shortstop is having a sophomore meltdown, our DH looks like there's a piano attached to his bat, we're not hitting any homers right now (because it was terrible last year when we did), and our offense is basically hot garbage right now (by my count, we have been held to 1 run or fewer 9 times in the first 30 games of the year).

Especially if you weren't wild about the direction KW and Ozzie wanted to go this offseason, there is plenty to be alarmed about. The only reason this team still looks like a contender is because the two teams we're chasing are only slightly less flawed than we are right now.

Thank you. You just made the post I started, but was too lazy to finish.

Calling up our AA is a horrible idea, but being overly concerned about this team is completely justified.

My biggest concern is Gavin Floyd. His WHIP is now 1.748. Many people predicted Gavin to regress and he has returned to pre-2007 form with his control.

If Gavin doesn't start to tremendously improve, this team is going to be worse than any of us could have imagined.

Noneck
05-11-2009, 04:34 PM
Contreras and Garcia in 2004.

That would be nice to happen again this year for future years ahead. I hope this type of move isn't a once in a decade kind of move.

doublem23
05-11-2009, 04:41 PM
If this was an NFL season, we would be talking about blowing up the team after game 3 because of a 1-2 record.

If this was an NBA or NHL season, we would be talking about blowing up the team after game 15 because of a 7-8 record.

Some of us just view it from a different perspective, one that accounts for how long an MLB season is. If the Sox had posted the same record with no one missing games for injury, then I could see a little merit in the "they're doomed" perspective. But with Lillibridge, Pods, Betemit, and Nix playing a lot more than they would have if everyone was healthy, I don't see the cause for panic.

That's a perfectly legitimate response. Of the 6 teams that were leading their division on May 11, only 1 managed to be there when the dust settled in October, so this season is decidedly not over.

kittle42
05-11-2009, 05:04 PM
That's a perfectly legitimate response. Of the 6 teams that were leading their division on May 11, only 1 managed to be there when the dust settled in October, so this season is decidedly not over.

The problem is, as with many arguments in life, that people tend to either state their argument or state the other side's argument as an "all or nothing" position. Being worried about this team is fine and justified. In fact, I have the same worries about it now that I had in March. But saying that the season is over and everthing should be blown up is ridiculous. However, it is equally ridiculous to jump on anyone with a negative evaluation of this team as an insane quitter.

So, yes, the title of this thread and its premise are horrible, but the folks who are simply worried about the complete lack of offense and other matters of late should not be called "embarrassments."

Demps2
05-11-2009, 05:23 PM
while I agree that it is too early to pull the plug, this is not a very good team. It will have it's explosions offensively, but it has made below average pitchers look like Cy Young. At the same time, if we stay in it, and manage to pull off some trades as a BUYER, and finish around .500, that is the worst possible outcome for this season. We cannot afford to trade away our youth, because whether we like it or not, a youth movement is on it's way. This team is not built (in 2009) for a deep postseason run. I wish it was, but there are too many holes. Right now this team has a better chance to end up where the 07 team did than the 08 team did at season's end.

JB98
05-11-2009, 06:22 PM
The problem is, as with many arguments in life, that people tend to either state their argument or state the other side's argument as an "all or nothing" position. Being worried about this team is fine and justified. In fact, I have the same worries about it now that I had in March. But saying that the season is over and everthing should be blown up is ridiculous. However, it is equally ridiculous to jump on anyone with a negative evaluation of this team as an insane quitter.

So, yes, the title of this thread and its premise are horrible, but the folks who are simply worried about the complete lack of offense and other matters of late should not be called "embarrassments."

It's fine to be worried abou the complete lack of offense and subpar performance of the back end of the rotation.

It's an embarrassment for people to say trade all the veterans and bring up a bunch of kids from Double-A. Such a statement shows a profound lack of knowledge.

kittle42
05-11-2009, 07:17 PM
It's an embarrassment for people to say trade all the veterans and bring up a bunch of kids from Double-A. Such a statement shows a profound lack of knowledge.

That is correct.

russ99
05-11-2009, 07:46 PM
If this was an NFL season, we would be talking about blowing up the team after game 3 because of a 1-2 record.

If this was an NBA or NHL season, we would be talking about blowing up the team after game 15 because of a 7-8 record.

Some of us just view it from a different perspective, one that accounts for how long an MLB season is. If the Sox had posted the same record with no one missing games for injury, then I could see a little merit in the "they're doomed" perspective. But with Lillibridge, Pods, Betemit, and Nix playing a lot more than they would have if everyone was healthy, I don't see the cause for panic.

You have a very good point, but I seriously doubt Anderson and Wise coming back will all of a sudden ignite the Sox offense, and we still need 1-2 more starters.

russ99
05-11-2009, 07:51 PM
while I agree that it is too early to pull the plug, this is not a very good team. It will have it's explosions offensively, but it has made below average pitchers look like Cy Young. At the same time, if we stay in it, and manage to pull off some trades as a BUYER, and finish around .500, that is the worst possible outcome for this season. We cannot afford to trade away our youth, because whether we like it or not, a youth movement is on it's way. This team is not built (in 2009) for a deep postseason run. I wish it was, but there are too many holes. Right now this team has a better chance to end up where the 07 team did than the 08 team did at season's end.

If we do that, aren't we're trusting the same Sox scouts that have failed miserably the last 5-6 years?

While I very much prefer to see Kenny holding onto our top-end prospects, like Beckham, Allen, Flowers and Poreda; I also would rather us get proven major leaguers to fill our obvious holes instead of selling our stars for even more prospects, many of whom won't pan out.

That's the difference between rebuilding like the Braves and rebuilding like the Royals or Rays. Besides, most Sox fans won't put up with 3-4 seasons of complete mediocrity that comes along with that mentality. I really don't want us to go back to a half-full stadium (at best) again.

Frater Perdurabo
05-11-2009, 08:03 PM
Even for you, Frater, this is a reach. Gio sucks and Fausto's arm blew up last year. Sweeney, yes, probably would be starting on the Sox this year in CF, but he's not a world-class player that we'll be missing for a decade.

C'mon.

I didn't even bring up DLS or Gio. And I didn't say Sweeney would be a star. But one need not be a star to be a useful position player.

My money's on Sweeney being a useful player for the next decade. Betemit is completely useless because he can't play the field, and he's not even that good of a hitter. He's Rob Mackowiak with the bat and Frank Thomas with the glove.

Tragg
05-11-2009, 08:12 PM
Our bullpen is decent at the back, but absolutely terrible at the front,
By back if you mean late innings, it's better than decent -it's among the best in baseball. It is why we are only 2 games below .500.
And the other end is only bad at the very last spot - that end is otherwise decent and probably as good as most.

As for the Swisher trade, 3 top prospects (and they were 3 of our top 5) can certainly be used to trade for more than Wilson Bettemit.
That Richar trade may prove to be the worst of the bunch.

On edit: I see that Gobble has joined the bullpen. That's now an officially weak back end.
On a side note, what is the love of this organization for veteran players who have been proven to be terrible?

drewcifer
05-11-2009, 08:23 PM
I agree with VC, too, I just get tired of folks who constantly slam every thread that dare not fit into their view as being an "embarrassment." News flash, folks, we only have 2 consistent starters, 2 hit or miss guys, and 1 black hole now (and god forbid if any of them get hurt). Our bullpen is decent at the back, but absolutely terrible at the front, our shortstop is having a sophomore meltdown, our DH looks like there's a piano attached to his bat, we're not hitting any homers right now (because it was terrible last year when we did), and our offense is basically hot garbage right now (by my count, we have been held to 1 run or fewer 9 times in the first 30 games of the year).

Especially if you weren't wild about the direction KW and Ozzie wanted to go this offseason, there is plenty to be alarmed about. The only reason this team still looks like a contender is because the two teams we're chasing are only slightly less flawed than we are right now.

I got guff for saying this before the season even started (http://www.whitesoxinteractive.com/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=2143113&postcount=39).

doublem23
05-11-2009, 08:47 PM
My money's on Sweeney being a useful player for the next decade. Betemit is completely useless because he can't play the field, and he's not even that good of a hitter. He's Rob Mackowiak with the bat and Frank Thomas with the glove.

Sweeney's not a CF by trade, though, and he probably won't be a productive CF for the rest of the decade.

Frater Perdurabo
05-11-2009, 08:58 PM
Sweeney's not a CF by trade, though, and he probably won't be a productive CF for the rest of the decade.

I never said he's a bona-fide starting CF. But again, he's a useful position player, something Betemit decidedly is not.

ChiSoxGirl
05-11-2009, 09:26 PM
FWIW, Guerrier never appeared in the majors for the White Sox. He was traded to the Pirates for Marte in 2002 and then made his MLB debut for the Twins two years later.

You're right; my bad. Regardless, you see my point, right?

Jurr
05-11-2009, 09:45 PM
Man, when this team finally gets hot, it could stay that way for a long time.

drewcifer
05-11-2009, 09:48 PM
I never said he's a bona-fide starting CF. But again, he's a useful position player, something Betemit decidedly is not.

I'll bet anything that you'll never see Betemit rob someone of a HR. Ever.

Sweeney already did that.

In CF.

Tragg
05-11-2009, 10:07 PM
I never said he's a bona-fide starting CF. But again, he's a useful position player, something Betemit decidedly is not.
In 2007, our talent evaluators picked Owens over Sweeney. They did it after watching Sweeney for 2 weeks and then falling in love with Owen's ability to hack, slap and lunge. It was ridiculous.
Sweeney's a lot better than the utility level talent the Sox - once again - loaded the bench with.

Demps2
05-11-2009, 10:28 PM
If we do that, aren't we're trusting the same Sox scouts that have failed miserably the last 5-6 years?

While I very much prefer to see Kenny holding onto our top-end prospects, like Beckham, Allen, Flowers and Poreda; I also would rather us get proven major leaguers to fill our obvious holes instead of selling our stars for even more prospects, many of whom won't pan out.

That's the difference between rebuilding like the Braves and rebuilding like the Royals or Rays. Besides, most Sox fans won't put up with 3-4 seasons of complete mediocrity that comes along with that mentality. I really don't want us to go back to a half-full stadium (at best) again.

that is true about us having poor scouts. but the scouts have been proven to scout well OUTSIDE the organization (Quentin, Danks). I just don't know what trading for proven MLB players will do right now when we have a below-average team. I know if we are poor for a few years the stands will empty out. That is going to happen eventually-rebuilding happens for everyone. Just trading top prospects will leave our farm system bare, and everyone on here will be POed when the proven vets retire, can't play due to age/injury anymore. My main concern is balancing winning now and winning in the future. And I don't think that both is possible with this team we have on the field. Problem is guys like Thome and Dye are aging veterans who are on the last year of their deal, and probably won't bring much back.

kittle42
05-12-2009, 01:14 AM
I got guff for saying this before the season even started (http://www.whitesoxinteractive.com/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=2143113&postcount=39).

Yes, well, so did I, and I hope I end up being wrong. So far, so bad.

Noneck
05-12-2009, 01:28 AM
Yes, well, so did I, and I hope I end up being wrong. So far, so bad.

Me3, If it looks like it, smells like it and feels like it, it probably is it. No matter what they try to tell you it is.

joegraz
05-12-2009, 07:45 AM
"Keeping the faith" is fine if that's what gets you through the night. But this is simply a very bad team.....until it's not! That doesn't make me any less of a fan, just an objective observer.....

Law11
05-12-2009, 09:58 AM
"Keeping the faith" is fine if that's what gets you through the night. But this is simply a very bad team.....until it's not! That doesn't make me any less of a fan, just an objective observer.....

well said. Take off the rose colored glasses and focus on what we have.. A lousy team right now. Why is it stating the obvious makes you a bad person..

CHISOXFAN13
05-12-2009, 10:04 AM
well said. Take off the rose colored glasses and focus on what we have.. A lousy team right now. Why is it stating the obvious makes you a bad person..

Well said. You don't have to believe the Sox are the best team in baseball to be a good fan. Being a realist hurts sometimes.

asindc
05-12-2009, 10:10 AM
well said. Take off the rose colored glasses and focus on what we have.. A lousy team right now. Why is it stating the obvious makes you a bad person..

Statement 1: The Sox are playing terrible baseball. They still lack reliable 4th and 5th starters, Floyd has regressed so far, and they still suck at situational hitting.

Statement 2: The Sox might as well break this team up now, since it won't get any better from here.


Now, you honestly don't see the difference between these two statements?

NLaloosh
05-12-2009, 11:36 AM
I don't foresee Kenny Williams making any consequential moves now or until near the deadline because:

1. No one is taking Thome and his salary.

2. Leadoff hitters are not any more available now than they have been for the past 2 years - probably less so.

3. The Sox are not taking on additional salary right now.

4. There are no young players in the minors that are ready to come up now and make a difference. Beckham would be the closest but it's hard to see how that would make the team better.

5. The Sox are 3 games ahead of Cleveland and only 1/2 behind Minnesota.

I expect things to stay the same for a while.

hi im skot
05-12-2009, 11:50 AM
I don't foresee Kenny Williams making any consequential moves now or until near the deadline because:

1. No one is taking Thome and his salary.

2. Leadoff hitters are not any more available now than they have been for the past 2 years - probably less so.

3. The Sox are not taking on additional salary right now.

4. There are no young players in the minors that are ready to come up now and make a difference. Beckham would be the closest but it's hard to see how that would make the team better.

5. The Sox are 3 games ahead of Cleveland and only 1/2 behind Minnesota.

I expect things to stay the same for a while.

What's wrong with Getz?

Gammons Peter
05-12-2009, 11:59 AM
What's wrong with Getz?

hmmm .340 OBP and a .357 SLG

Law11
05-12-2009, 12:10 PM
Statement 1: The Sox are playing terrible baseball. They still lack reliable 4th and 5th starters, Floyd has regressed so far, and they still suck at situational hitting.

Statement 2: The Sox might as well break this team up now, since it won't get any better from here.


Now, you honestly don't see the difference between these two statements?

Honestly I dont care. Its one persons opinion and isnt that what this is for. You care. I dont.

Jenks4Prez
05-12-2009, 12:41 PM
So are we all in agreement yet that the Sox are really bad this year?

Just checking.

asindc
05-12-2009, 12:53 PM
So are we all in agreement yet that the Sox are really bad this year?

Just checking.

They are bad... so far.

doublem23
05-12-2009, 12:56 PM
So are we all in agreement yet that the Sox are really bad this year?

Just checking.

I'm not.

:shrug:

FWIW, the Astros went to the World Series in 2005, they won 89 games that year but didn't get above .500 that year until July 19 when they were 47-46. This year's not over, folks, 14-17 isn't were I'd like to be, but let's not pretend like 3 games under .500 and a 3.5-game deficit in the division with 131 games left to play is a hole that's completely insurmountable.

voodoochile
05-12-2009, 01:27 PM
So are we all in agreement yet that the Sox are really bad this year?

Just checking.

Nope. I agree they've been less than great for the first 6 weeks of the season, but see no reason they can't turn it around.

I'm unimpressed with your posts though. They strike me as really bad...

Jenks4Prez
05-12-2009, 01:35 PM
Nope. I agree they've been less than great for the first 6 weeks of the season, but see no reason they can't turn it around.

I'm unimpressed with your posts though. They strike me as really bad...

Personal attacks are not allowed on this board. As you have warned many times. I expect more from an administrator. Know the rules of the board if you're going to enforce them.

JB98
05-12-2009, 01:38 PM
Statement 1: The Sox are playing terrible baseball. They still lack reliable 4th and 5th starters, Floyd has regressed so far, and they still suck at situational hitting.

Statement 2: The Sox might as well break this team up now, since it won't get any better from here.


Now, you honestly don't see the difference between these two statements?

That's really the key point. I have absolutely no problem with any poster who makes Statement 1. The baseball we've seen the last 10 days has been too pathetic for words.

But Statement 2 is just Chicken Little nonsense, and people need to stop. If the Sox are still this bad in late June, then yeah, we'll talk about breaking up the team.

voodoochile
05-12-2009, 01:38 PM
Personal attacks are not allowed on this board. As you have warned many times. I expect more from an administrator. Know the rules of the board if you're going to enforce them.

I didn't attack you. I attacked your posts and I stand behind those statements. I think it shows a complete lack of baseball knowledge to make a definitive statement about how the board feels about the Sox ability or lack there of on May 12th. Heck, I don't think you can fairly evaluate the Sox season at this point, but to do so AND try to speak for the board as a whole is crappy posting.

southside rocks
05-12-2009, 01:46 PM
So are we all in agreement yet that the Sox are really bad this year?

Just checking.

They're playing badly.

Are they a bad team? I don't think so -- they're playing well below their capabilities, IMO, so I do expect improvement.

If this recent bad play were the best they could do, then I'd say yes, they're bad. But that's not the case.

However, I'm glad that I spent last evening at a yoga class rather than watching the game, and when I came out of the yoga center and turned on the radio in the car, Farmio sounded like he was on a high bridge about to jump. Told me all I needed to know. :(:

october23sp
05-12-2009, 03:59 PM
I'm not.

:shrug:

FWIW, the Astros went to the World Series in 2005, they won 89 games that year but didn't get above .500 that year until July 19 when they were 47-46. This year's not over, folks, 14-17 isn't were I'd like to be, but let's not pretend like 3 games under .500 and a 3.5-game deficit in the division with 131 games left to play is a hole that's completely insurmountable.

Weird I was going to mention something about them too, they started out 15-30. http://mlb.mlb.com/mlb/standings/index.jsp?ymd=20050524

RockyMtnSoxFan
05-12-2009, 04:33 PM
They're playing badly.

Are they a bad team? I don't think so -- they're playing well below their capabilities, IMO, so I do expect improvement.


Agreed. Floyd probably won't finish the season with stats this bad -- of course, he probably won't approach last year's numbers either. Thome might be done, but a lot of the other guys will improve. Even if he doesn't hit as well as last year, Alexei is going to pick it up somewhat.

Basically, I feel that they are playing slightly worse right now than their capability, but unless something happens and someone really has a breakout season, they are going to have a hard time winning the division.