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Rocky Soprano
05-07-2009, 11:47 AM
Ramirez suspended 50 games for positive drug test!

http://www.latimes.com/sports/la-sp-manny-ramirez8-2009may08,0,6324894.story

areilly
05-07-2009, 11:50 AM
Wow. Apparently my faith in "big fat guy power" was totally unjustified.

Jerko
05-07-2009, 11:51 AM
So he'll miss the Sox series?

Gavin
05-07-2009, 11:51 AM
Amazing. Just amazing.

grenda12
05-07-2009, 11:52 AM
Ouch 50 games;he deserves it for using roids.

GoGoCrede
05-07-2009, 11:52 AM
Just got the text from ESPN. Not very surprised. This is all we'll be seeing on sports shows for the next year or so.

beasly213
05-07-2009, 11:53 AM
Hmmm, I wonder if that's why it took so long for him to get signed and why there wasn't interest from other teams. There had to have been some rumblings going on within baseball about him..

spongyfungy
05-07-2009, 11:55 AM
Well I am surprised to hear that Manny was caught doing steroids, given the climate and his stature

TealTank
05-07-2009, 11:55 AM
I'm so shocked. I mean he played for the Red Sox and of course playing in Fenway was the reason he hit so well.

As much as I hate Canseco, everything he has said in his book is true.

asindc
05-07-2009, 11:55 AM
It is quite remarkable that Canseco gains more credibility with each incident.

Mr.1Dog
05-07-2009, 11:57 AM
:o: While I am not shocked about this, it's still a bit shocking. Does this void his obsurd contract?

beasly213
05-07-2009, 11:57 AM
What's funny is ESPN constantly tries to poo poo everything Canseco says and always hoping what he says isn't true but it looks like he keeps getting more and more credible.

What sucks is no one is without suspicion in MLB right now for PHD. :(:

salty99
05-07-2009, 11:58 AM
Not surprised, we knew ARoid wouldn't be the last.

DirtySox
05-07-2009, 12:01 PM
Wow. I'm not sure why, but I never really even considered Manny. Crazy.

downstairs
05-07-2009, 12:01 PM
How insanely stupid do you have to be to take 'roids NOW when testing is being done?

I don't condone, but do understand players doing it before testing. Easy to get away with.

But wow, that's just mind-numbingly stupid.

guillensdisciple
05-07-2009, 12:03 PM
You have to be kidding me. There is no one you can trust at this point. They should just strip the game down to the essentials and allow people like us to play, because this is getting ridiculous.

aryzner
05-07-2009, 12:04 PM
Sure feels like no big hitter is/was clean these days.

soxpride724
05-07-2009, 12:04 PM
I hope the Dodgers can stay hot without him. They are one of my favorites in the N.L.

Mr.1Dog
05-07-2009, 12:05 PM
Manny is saying that the drugs were for a "personal medical use.":rolleyes:

longtimesoxguy
05-07-2009, 12:06 PM
How insanely stupid do you have to be to take 'roids NOW when testing is being done?

I don't condone, but do understand players doing it before testing. Easy to get away with.

But wow, that's just mind-numbingly stupid.
Exactly, for anyone to get caught now should be a full 162 game sit out.
And the team should also be fined heavily with draft picks. I bet they would police the players so this wouldn't happen.

WhiteSoxFan84
05-07-2009, 12:06 PM
More proof that this man is the greatest hitter of his generation...

http://webpages.maine207.org/staff/atrenkle/AADB019~Frank-Thomas-Studio-Portrait-Photofile-Posters.jpg

downstairs
05-07-2009, 12:08 PM
Manny is saying that the drugs were for a "personal medical use.":rolleyes:

Ummmmm. Yeah, i guess he's... right?

Noneck
05-07-2009, 12:10 PM
Thats Manny being Manny.

WhiteSoxFan84
05-07-2009, 12:10 PM
Sure feels like no big hitter is/was clean these days.

I can tell of you two....
http://students.ou.edu/D/Bobbi.N.Day-1/images/pujols.jpg

and..

http://forum.sportsmogul.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=23751&d=1240100820

Domeshot17
05-07-2009, 12:11 PM
I know hes gone and I know they wont stop, But the Red Sox should be permanently shut up by this about A Rod. A proven Roider carried them to 2 titles.

ShoelessJoeS
05-07-2009, 12:11 PM
This only furthers my suspicion that Ortiz roided too.

asindc
05-07-2009, 12:11 PM
How insanely stupid do you have to be to take 'roids NOW when testing is being done?

I don't condone, but do understand players doing it before testing. Easy to get away with.

But wow, that's just mind-numbingly stupid.

My sense is that Manny probably took something OTC that on the surface is legal but contains enough of an illegal substance to get him popped for it. This is how a lot of Olympic athletes get popped. Pseudoephedrine, for instance, is found in OTC cold medications and is on the list for banned substances in just about every cardio-based sport. Just a thought...

Domeshot17
05-07-2009, 12:12 PM
I can tell of you two....
http://students.ou.edu/D/Bobbi.N.Day-1/images/pujols.jpg

and..

http://forum.sportsmogul.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=23751&d=1240100820

Don't bet the farm yet. A lot of whispers about Pujols and hgh use. Quentin I would guess not, but honestly, would ANYONE shock you at this point?

aryzner
05-07-2009, 12:15 PM
Don't bet the farm yet. A lot of whispers about Pujols and hgh use. Quentin I would guess not, but honestly, would ANYONE shock you at this point?
I feel ya. I want to believe 100% that both Pujols and Quentin are clean but with the way that it's been going, I just don't know about anybody anymore.

beasly213
05-07-2009, 12:15 PM
Don't bet the farm yet. A lot of whispers about Pujols and hgh use. Quentin I would guess not, but honestly, would ANYONE shock you at this point?

Nope. :(:

ShoelessJoeS
05-07-2009, 12:15 PM
Don't bet the farm yet. A lot of whispers about Pujols and hgh use. Quentin I would guess not, but honestly, would ANYONE shock you at this point?Unfortunately, no. With the exception of Jim Thome.

SOXPHILE
05-07-2009, 12:16 PM
I can tell of you two....
http://students.ou.edu/D/Bobbi.N.Day-1/images/pujols.jpg

and..

http://forum.sportsmogul.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=23751&d=1240100820

You know, I hope you're right, but you can't say for sure. EVERYONE is under suspicion. Many people were saying the same thing about Alex Rodriguez too.

pythons007
05-07-2009, 12:17 PM
The only one left IS Pujols and he is as big as a house! To not consider him for some sort of drug use with all the players testing positive would be complete stupidity.

Huisj
05-07-2009, 12:20 PM
Pseudoephedrine, for instance, is found in OTC cold medications and is on the list for banned substances in just about every cardio-based sport.

Did not know that. I take Claritin-D every day for allergies. If I was competing in something, would I be in trouble?

They aren't going to disqualify my record setting (slow) 5k times, are they?

thedudeabides
05-07-2009, 12:20 PM
My sense is that Manny probably took something OTC that on the surface is legal but contains enough of an illegal substance to get him popped for it. This is how a lot of Olympic athletes get popped. Pseudoephedrine, for instance, is found in OTC cold medications and is on the list for banned substances in just about every cardio-based sport. Just a thought...

This is often the excuse used, but I'm not buying it. I think the testing is getting more sophistcated. If your using banned substances at this point, you must believe they are able to be masked during testing. It's not like Victor Conte was the only one providing this service.

I'm just glad players are being outed. The more that do, especially the big names, the faster this game can get cleaned up.

asindc
05-07-2009, 12:23 PM
Did not know that. I take Claritin-D every day for allergies. If I was competing in something, would I be in trouble?

They aren't going to disqualify my record setting (slow) 5k times, are they?

It depends how much they find in your system and whether or not you reported your illness beforehand and what you proposed to take for it. It's sort of a sliding scale and leaves room for interpretation.

That said, I believe if you tested 500 random people walking down the street on any given day, based on IOC testing procedures, about 10-20 would get popped for "illegal substances."

downstairs
05-07-2009, 12:23 PM
Exactly, for anyone to get caught now should be a full 162 game sit out.
And the team should also be fined heavily with draft picks. I bet they would police the players so this wouldn't happen.

To be fair, Joe Torre couldn't have possibly known. Nor with A-Rod. Nor with Giambi. And so on...

/teal implied

downstairs
05-07-2009, 12:24 PM
This is often the excuse used, but I'm not buying it. I think the testing is getting more sophistcated. If your using banned substances at this point, you must believe they are able to be masked during testing. It's not like Victor Conte was the only one providing this service.

I'm just glad players are being outed. The more that do, especially the big names, the faster this game can get cleaned up.

I will NEVER buy this excuse. You're making millions. I'd hire a part-time doctor to do nothing but research EVERYTHING I take.

Coolpapa
05-07-2009, 12:24 PM
The Dodgers need Jermaine Dye now. Trade him and Contreras for Clayton Kershaw and prospects

DaveFeelsRight
05-07-2009, 12:25 PM
oh well. he's going to miss the white sox series now :smile:

DaveFeelsRight
05-07-2009, 12:25 PM
The Dodgers need Jermaine Dye now. Trade him and Contreras for Clayton Kershaw and prospectsthe way the dodgers are playing, no one is going anywhere

oeo
05-07-2009, 12:25 PM
The Dodgers need Jermaine Dye now. Trade him and Contreras for Clayton Kershaw and prospects

It's only a couple of months, and plus, the Sox need Dye now too.

asindc
05-07-2009, 12:26 PM
This is often the excuse used, but I'm not buying it. I think the testing is getting more sophistcated. If your using banned substances at this point, you must believe they are able to be masked during testing. It's not like Victor Conte was the only one providing this service.

I'm just glad players are being outed. The more that do, especially the big names, the faster this game can get cleaned up.

That's why upfront reporting is critical for athletes. If they don't tell their governing body beforehand about having to take certain medications for illness, they are cooked. Even if they do report, however, it depends on the amount found in the bloodstream.

akingamongstmen
05-07-2009, 12:30 PM
Looks like the Big Hurt, Griffey and Thome are the only elite sluggers from the late '90s and early '00s left standing. Here's to hoping that their names are clean and that they go down as the best three power hitters of their generation.

pmck003
05-07-2009, 12:32 PM
Big deal, its just Manny being Manny

gobears1987
05-07-2009, 12:36 PM
Unfortunately, no. With the exception of Jim Thome.
Frank Thomas. No one has even thought of accusing him because everyone knows he did it the right way.

guillen4life13
05-07-2009, 12:37 PM
I have to give Manny the benefit of the doubt on this one. Supposedly it's his first positive test and it could have been caused by any one of a number of drugs that would seem legal.

Not enough info is available on this one to be able to draw a conclusion. I hope it's not true, but if it is, good he got the suspension and his name is tarnished.

As much as I like Griffey, I wouldn't immediately say he didn't do anything. Some of his injuries seemed too freakish to happen without something else helping the body deteriorate. Not saying he did them... just sayin'.

asindc
05-07-2009, 12:39 PM
Apparently MLB Network has reported that the substance is a non-PED. This is third-hand knowledge, however. Take it as you will.

Stormin' Norm
05-07-2009, 12:39 PM
More athletes take roids than we could even begin to know. These guys are not idiots. The pros vs. the cons of putting up inflated stats via roids and getting a HUGE contract far out weighs the slap on the wrist and change in public opinion they get if busted. For baseball players it could be the difference between a $25 million a year contract and $10 million a year contract.

Demps2
05-07-2009, 12:39 PM
This is getting ridiculous. I realize many people love their teams, but how baseball is getting better attendance year after year (I know they are down this year due to the economy) is absurd. It's one cheater after the other. Half the coverage I see on baseball is on A-Rod's steroid use, some guy wanting more money who is already making $25M. Unreal. I hope the Dodgers can find a way to cut him, because these teams have to raise ticket prices in this economy due to these absurd salaries. The reason these guys have these salaries is b/c they are cheating. Alright I'll stop preaching!!!!!!!!!!:)

thedudeabides
05-07-2009, 12:43 PM
I have to give Manny the benefit of the doubt on this one. Supposedly it's his first positive test and it could have been caused by any one of a number of drugs that would seem legal.

Not enough info is available on this one to be able to draw a conclusion. I hope it's not true, but if it is, good he got the suspension and his name is tarnished.

As much as I like Griffey, I wouldn't immediately say he didn't do anything. Some of his injuries seemed too freakish to happen without something else helping the body deteriorate. Not saying he did them... just sayin'.


So, your willing to give Manny the benefit of the doubt, but not Griffey?

Griffey's name has never even been whispered in the same sentence as steroids. And I have no idea how you can link his injuries to what 'roids do to the body. Shattering your wrist on a wall does not correlate with steroid use.

Lorenzo Barcelo
05-07-2009, 12:44 PM
If Manny didn't cheat we would of won the World Series!

-ignorant cub fan

Demps2
05-07-2009, 12:46 PM
One more thing. Doe these guys realize what this does to their health? If they are compulsive users, they will die when they are 50.

thomas35forever
05-07-2009, 12:46 PM
I had to laugh when I first heard this story. That man with his big ego deserves it. I'm sure Borass is weeping over all the lost money right now.

Domeshot17
05-07-2009, 12:49 PM
Looks like the Big Hurt, Griffey and Thome are the only elite sluggers from the late '90s and early '00s left standing. Here's to hoping that their names are clean and that they go down as the best three power hitters of their generation.

theres still a dozen or so

Off the top of my head guys like Chipper, Helton, Delago (who is shockingly close to 500 homers) Vlad , few others. I think what we are seeing is if guys like Helton had roided, he would have insane numbers instead of very good.

kobo
05-07-2009, 12:50 PM
How about instead of everyone jumping to the conclusion that he used a steroid or other PED we wait until more information comes out. Every article I have read over the last 30 minutes makes no mention of roids or PED's. You all can believe what you want, but I'll wait for more information to come out about this.

Nellie_Fox
05-07-2009, 12:52 PM
I have to give Manny the benefit of the doubt on this one. Supposedly it's his first positive test and it could have been caused by any one of a number of drugs that would seem legal. What does this even mean? Where do you get your information?

First of all, you don't know that its his first positive. He very well could be among the positives in the first "confidential" test. Second, what drugs "seem legal" but aren't? MLB has instituted a program where you are supposed to call and they'll tell you whether what you are asking about is legal or not. They wouldn't jump to an "effective immediately" 50 game suspension of one of the game's biggest names unless they had their ducks in a row.

SoxFan78
05-07-2009, 12:57 PM
Ouch! Out 50 games and out $8 million dollars. He admits its his mistake and will not appeal. If he would have just checked with his Dr. before taking medicine, he would have been all good.

Can't wait to hear about this for the next 7 months...

ChiSoxFan81
05-07-2009, 12:57 PM
Calm down everyone. It's just Manny being Manny. I bet he just took one of these : :chillpill:

Soxaredabest
05-07-2009, 12:59 PM
If Manny didn't cheat we would of won the World Series!

-ignorant cub fan



haha, one of my cub fan friends said that too. I told him that if one player on steroids beat your whole team who are not on steroids then you guys deserved it.

kittle42
05-07-2009, 01:00 PM
If Manny didn't cheat we would of won the World Series!

-ignorant cub fan


Indeed. This fellow would also be ignorant for thinking "would of" is correct. :redneck

akingamongstmen
05-07-2009, 01:01 PM
theres still a dozen or so

Off the top of my head guys like Chipper, Helton, Delago (who is shockingly close to 500 homers) Vlad , few others. I think what we are seeing is if guys like Helton had roided, he would have insane numbers instead of very good.

Good point. Those guys were/are all great hitters, but I don't know if any are Hall of Famers like the Big Hurt, Griffey or Thome. It will be interesting to see how this era is viewed in 20 or 30 years. Who will be revered and who else will have been exposed?

Sox
05-07-2009, 01:02 PM
Ramirez suspended 50 games for positive drug test!

http://www.latimes.com/sports/la-sp-manny-ramirez8-2009may08,0,6324894.story

I see an asterisk in this guys future.

seventyseven
05-07-2009, 01:03 PM
Well I am surprised to hear that Manny was caught doing steroids, given the climate and his stature

How do we know it's steroids? Aren't there other types of banned substances that incur the 50 game penalty?

BringBackBlkJack
05-07-2009, 01:05 PM
Apparently MLB Network has reported that the substance is a non-PED. This is third-hand knowledge, however. Take it as you will.

I believe this may be incorrect. The CNN/SI article states it was a PED but technically not classified as a steroid.

http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/2009/baseball/mlb/05/07/manny/index.html?cnn=yes

minutia
05-07-2009, 01:07 PM
It depends how much they find in your system and whether or not you reported your illness beforehand and what you proposed to take for it. It's sort of a sliding scale and leaves room for interpretation.

That said, I believe if you tested 500 random people walking down the street on any given day, based on IOC testing procedures, about 10-20 would get popped for "illegal substances."

This may be a dumb question but what do players with allergies do if a common allergy medecine is a banned substance? Do they have to declare they take Claritin or whatever? Judging from your statement they could rule out that particular drug if they know before hand? Just curious, I can't get through the day now without taking allergy meds.

On another note, I believe an olympic athelete was popped for using a Vicks inhaler.

palehozenychicty
05-07-2009, 01:12 PM
I'm not too surprised, but it feels like something else is going on. I'll wait for the facts. At least Manny is talking about it with honesty, unlike the punk A-Fraud. McGwire sits at home, still living in denial.

Jerko
05-07-2009, 01:12 PM
I believe if the medicine is legally prescribed, they can take it.

DSpivack
05-07-2009, 01:13 PM
Good point. Those guys were/are all great hitters, but I don't know if any are Hall of Famers like the Big Hurt, Griffey or Thome. It will be interesting to see how this era is viewed in 20 or 30 years. Who will be revered and who else will have been exposed?

Amid discussions of elite hitters, no one has mentioned Miguel Cabrera. I've never heard him linked to steroids, either.

palehozenychicty
05-07-2009, 01:15 PM
Amid discussions of elite hitters, no one has mentioned Miguel Cabrera. I've never heard him linked to steroids, either.


He's been in the league so long and is so consistent that we just forget about him. Good one.

asindc
05-07-2009, 01:18 PM
This may be a dumb question but what do players with allergies do if a common allergy medecine is a banned substance? Do they have to declare they take Claritin or whatever? Judging from your statement they could rule out that particular drug if they know before hand? Just curious, I can't get through the day now without taking allergy meds.

On another note, I believe an olympic athelete was popped for using a Vicks inhaler.

That's why reporting is critical. Apparently, Boras' early statement on this is that Manny tested positive for something prescribed by his doctor, and the mistake was in not reporting the drug beforehand.

If a Track & Field athlete has allergies, he has to produce medical records to verify it, and the type and amount of medication needed. What makes a baseball, football, or basketball player more suspcious is that those sports test for far fewer substances than cardio-based sports like track, cycling, and swimming do.

asindc
05-07-2009, 01:24 PM
Manny's initial statement on this:

http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/news/story?id=4148907

TheVulture
05-07-2009, 01:26 PM
Good point. Those guys were/are all great hitters, but I don't know if any are Hall of Famers like the Big Hurt, Griffey or Thome.

Chipper and Vlad aren't HOFer's? You need to look at the numbers again.

WS in 05
05-07-2009, 01:26 PM
What's funny is ESPN constantly tries to poo poo everything Canseco says and always hoping what he says isn't true but it looks like he keeps getting more and more credible.

What sucks is no one is without suspicion in MLB right now for PHD. :(:

http://tbn2.google.com/images?q=tbn:6c5e0MsD-dGEzM:http://msn.foxsports.com/fe/img/MLB/Headshots/140x170/8187.jpg (http://images.google.com/imgres?imgurl=http://msn.foxsports.com/fe/img/MLB/Headshots/140x170/8187.jpg&imgrefurl=http://msn.foxsports.com/mlb/playerNews%3FstatsId%3D8187%26fantasyNews%3Dtrue&usg=__6sLjc2gYhamws4-ogstVqPu526s=&h=170&w=140&sz=4&hl=en&start=3&tbnid=6c5e0MsD-dGEzM:&tbnh=99&tbnw=82&prev=/images%3Fq%3Dbrent%2Blillibridge%26gbv%3D2%26hl%3D en%26sa%3DG)
Even Me?

chisoxfanatic
05-07-2009, 01:27 PM
:o: While I am not shocked about this, it's still a bit shocking. Does this void his obsurd contract?
His contract isn't voided; but, he is not paid during his suspension.
This only furthers my suspicion that Ortiz roided too.
I was thinking Papi was on steroids for the longest time.

TommyJohn
05-07-2009, 01:33 PM
TAINT!

I wonder if ESPN or any media outlets will throw this word around. Are the Red Sox' two titles now TAINTED?


I wonder. If a former member of the 2005 White Sox got busted today, you damn well know that word would be flying around all over the place, along with references to the 1919 Black Sox.

I for one am looking forward to Dan Shaughnessy's take on this. Too bad Giggly Greg is no longer with the S-T, I'd like to see what he has to say, too. Are the boys at ESPN wringing their hands yet?

guillen4life13
05-07-2009, 01:41 PM
I have to give Manny the benefit of the doubt on this one. Supposedly it's his first positive test and it could have been caused by any one of a number of drugs that would seem legal.

Not enough info is available on this one to be able to draw a conclusion. I hope it's not true, but if it is, good he got the suspension and his name is tarnished.

As much as I like Griffey, I wouldn't immediately say he didn't do anything. Some of his injuries seemed too freakish to happen without something else helping the body deteriorate. Not saying he did them... just sayin'.

So, your willing to give Manny the benefit of the doubt, but not Griffey?

Griffey's name has never even been whispered in the same sentence as steroids. And I have no idea how you can link his injuries to what 'roids do to the body. Shattering your wrist on a wall does not correlate with steroid use.

Never said Griffey did anything. I'm saying that you can't rule it out. His hamstring injury is more what I was alluding to, with it coming clean off the bone.

What does this even mean? Where do you get your information?

First of all, you don't know that its his first positive. He very well could be among the positives in the first "confidential" test. Second, what drugs "seem legal" but aren't? MLB has instituted a program where you are supposed to call and they'll tell you whether what you are asking about is legal or not. They wouldn't jump to an "effective immediately" 50 game suspension of one of the game's biggest names unless they had their ducks in a row.

According to the ESPN article, Manny claims it's his first positive. Hence my saying "Supposedly" (while you're off emboldening my words, try that also). I never said Manny didn't take PED's. I did say that I'm gonna wait until there's more info out there before I make a judgment. Lots of supplements you get at GNC or other such stores have ingredients that are steroid precursors. If this is how Manny got his positive test, then shame on him. However, if it's an OTC drug that happens to contain an ingredient on the banned substances list (which I believe is a distinct possibility) then Manny is still stupid for not going through due diligence with what he puts in his body, but it's not as egregious as injecting steroids or HGH.

I didn't judge Manny or Griffey, but I don't think it's out of the realm of possibility that both of them took PED's. My Griffey statement was in response to him, Frank, and Thome being the only clean guys from the '90's.

The only person I'd say with reasonable certainty was clean during that time is Frank, and that's only because he was so outspoken about it as far back as '95. I don't rule out Thome or Griffey. Just because they played for the Sox or are considered "good guys" in the sport doesn't mean they don't have any skeletons in the closet. I'm not saying they did it, but recently a friend of mine made a good case for Griffey possibly having taken PED's that made me rethink my old stance on him, which was that he was definitely clean. Now, I'm not so sure. He's innocent until proven guilty, but I was so sure about A-Rod until a few months ago, so my thoughts on this topic are a lot more skeptical. However, I'm not going to crucify Manny until more info comes out about this.

voodoochile
05-07-2009, 01:44 PM
Well I am surprised to hear that Manny was caught doing steroids, given the climate and his stature

Yeah, how stupid is that?

And the excuse of "my doctor gave me the medicine that caused the failed test" is meaningless. Most of the guys named in the Mitchell report had a prescription.

guillen4life13
05-07-2009, 01:44 PM
TAINT!

I wonder if ESPN or any media outlets will throw this word around. Are the Red Sox' two titles now TAINTED?


I wonder. If a former member of the 2005 White Sox got busted today, you damn well know that word would be flying around all over the place, along with references to the 1919 Black Sox.

I for one am looking forward to Dan Shaughnessy's take on this. Too bad Giggly Greg is no longer with the S-T, I'd like to see what he has to say, too. Are the boys at ESPN wringing their hands yet?

I really don't agree. No one has yelled "TAINTED" about the A's in the late '80's or the Marlins in '97 (Sheff). Not everyone in the world hates the White Sox.

DirtySox
05-07-2009, 01:54 PM
Manny Tested Positive for Sexual Enhancer (http://sports.yahoo.com/mlb/news?slug=ys-ramirezsuspension050709&prov=yhoo&type=lgns)

GoGoCrede
05-07-2009, 01:56 PM
Manny Tested Positive for Sexual Enhancer (http://sports.yahoo.com/mlb/news?slug=ys-ramirezsuspension050709&prov=yhoo&type=lgns)

I honestly thought it was going to be a link to the Onion.

SoxSpeed22
05-07-2009, 01:56 PM
What's funny is ESPN constantly tries to poo poo everything Canseco says and always hoping what he says isn't true but it looks like he keeps getting more and more credible. ESPN knows that baseball is arguably their biggest cash-cow. They have to do everything in order to keep it credible.
I was also wondering how Manny escaped the Mitchell report. In Frank's case, he turned in a lot of information and did what was necessary to clear his name.

What sucks is no one is without suspicion in MLB right now for PHD. :(:It does come with the territory. After the track record of all of these great players taking steroids.
On a side note, I really should get my hands on one of those PHDs.

russ99
05-07-2009, 01:57 PM
Manny Tested Positive for Sexual Enhancer (http://sports.yahoo.com/mlb/news?slug=ys-ramirezsuspension050709&prov=yhoo&type=lgns)

Oh, now that's doubly embarassing. :D:

guillen4life13
05-07-2009, 01:59 PM
Manny Tested Positive for Sexual Enhancer (http://sports.yahoo.com/mlb/news?slug=ys-ramirezsuspension050709&prov=yhoo&type=lgns)

And this is part of why I wasn't going to skewer Manny yet.

Kinda feel for the guy that this type of info has to become public knowledge, but I guess that's what comes with being a celebrity.

edit: BOO YAH!

DSpivack
05-07-2009, 02:05 PM
And this is part of why I wasn't going to skewer Manny yet.

Kinda feel for the guy that this type of info has to become public knowledge, but I guess that's what comes with being a celebrity.

edit: BOO YAH!

I can picture Manny getting home late after a night game, turning on the tv to watch an infomercial, and ordering that, uhh, product. Manny being Manny.

SOXPHILE
05-07-2009, 02:05 PM
Manny Tested Positive for Sexual Enhancer (http://sports.yahoo.com/mlb/news?slug=ys-ramirezsuspension050709&prov=yhoo&type=lgns)


Well, now we know what he'll be trying to do more of during that 50 day suspension.

skobabe8
05-07-2009, 02:07 PM
And this is part of why I wasn't going to skewer Manny yet.

Kinda feel for the guy that this type of info has to become public knowledge, but I guess that's what comes with being a celebrity.

edit: BOO YAH!

Cialis and MLB have a partnership. That would be interesting. :tongue:

hi im skot
05-07-2009, 02:07 PM
TAINT!

I wonder if ESPN or any media outlets will throw this word around. Are the Red Sox' two titles now TAINTED?


I wonder. If a former member of the 2005 White Sox got busted today, you damn well know that word would be flying around all over the place, along with references to the 1919 Black Sox.

I for one am looking forward to Dan Shaughnessy's take on this. Too bad Giggly Greg is no longer with the S-T, I'd like to see what he has to say, too. Are the boys at ESPN wringing their hands yet?

Manny Tested Positive for Sexual Enhancer (http://sports.yahoo.com/mlb/news?slug=ys-ramirezsuspension050709&prov=yhoo&type=lgns)

YYn4F65gCKo

Jerko
05-07-2009, 02:07 PM
http://www.joshcrain.com/blog/files/smiling_bob.jpg

dickallen15
05-07-2009, 02:13 PM
And this is part of why I wasn't going to skewer Manny yet.

Kinda feel for the guy that this type of info has to become public knowledge, but I guess that's what comes with being a celebrity.

edit: BOO YAH!

He tested positive for a women's fertility drug commonly used when coming off a "cycle" of steroids or PEDs according to the guys at ESPN.

soxfanatlanta
05-07-2009, 02:14 PM
Manny Tested Positive for Sexual Enhancer (http://sports.yahoo.com/mlb/news?slug=ys-ramirezsuspension050709&prov=yhoo&type=lgns)

Couldn't he just be busted for smoking the 'jah?

How embarrassing.

DirtySox
05-07-2009, 02:17 PM
He tested positive for a women's fertility drug commonly used when coming off a "cycle" of steroids or PEDs according to the guys at ESPN.

Clomid I'll bet. It brings your testosterone back up after coming off a cycle.

asindc
05-07-2009, 02:19 PM
http://www.joshcrain.com/blog/files/smiling_bob.jpg

Well played, sir!

DirtySox
05-07-2009, 02:22 PM
Time to get the skewers back out?

http://www.baseballprospectus.com/unfiltered/?p=1256

What he tested positive for was HCG (Human Chorionic Gonadotropin.) Very simply put, it boosts testosterone.

cws05champ
05-07-2009, 02:26 PM
It depends how much they find in your system and whether or not you reported your illness beforehand and what you proposed to take for it. It's sort of a sliding scale and leaves room for interpretation.

That said, I believe if you tested 500 random people walking down the street on any given day, based on IOC testing procedures, about 10-20 would get popped for "illegal substances."
True, but those 500 people are not making $20 million per year, and one of the conditions of making that much is to adhere to a policy that resticts what you can put in your body. I, for dam sure, would make sure it would be OK to take ANYTHING before it goes in my body. Especially if it's $8M bucks and my reputation on the line.

Boondock Saint
05-07-2009, 02:32 PM
Holy Crap...didn't see this one coming.

Hitmen77
05-07-2009, 02:42 PM
Manny Tested Positive for Sexual Enhancer (http://sports.yahoo.com/mlb/news?slug=ys-ramirezsuspension050709&prov=yhoo&type=lgns)

I honestly thought it was going to be a link to the Onion.

I thought the exact same thing.:o:

http://www.joshcrain.com/blog/files/smiling_bob.jpg

WORST.
COMMERCIALS.
EVER.

thedudeabides
05-07-2009, 02:45 PM
Time to get the skewers back out?

http://www.baseballprospectus.com/unfiltered/?p=1256

What he tested positive for was HCG (Human Chorionic Gonadotropin.) Very simply put, it boosts testosterone.


This makes some sense. You had to figure he was guilty when he decided to not even appeal. If it was in fact, a prescription from a Dr., for a medical condition as Manny states, he would have at least had a case to appeal.

Hitmen77
05-07-2009, 02:46 PM
Looks like the Big Hurt, Griffey and Thome are the only elite sluggers from the late '90s and early '00s left standing. Here's to hoping that their names are clean and that they go down as the best three power hitters of their generation.

....and it's been great to see all 3 play for the White Sox. :cool:

On the MLB Network at noon, they were talking about how so many sluggers from this era have been tainted. They said that of all the players with over 500 HR from this era, only Griffey and Thome are untainted.

Ahem, I think the forgot #35 for the White Sox.:mad:

Viva Medias B's
05-07-2009, 02:50 PM
I'm @ work; I bet ESPN has gone into complete "OH MY GOD!!!!!" mode, right?

QueerGirrl
05-07-2009, 02:50 PM
On the MLB Network at noon, they were talking about how so many sluggers from this era have been tainted. They said that of all the players with over 500 HR from this era, only Griffey and Thome are untainted.

Ahem, I think the forgot #35 for the White Sox.:mad:

*******s! :angry:

Stormin' Norm
05-07-2009, 02:50 PM
HCG is used by men in post cycle therapy to bring their own bodies production of testosterone back up to normal levels after being suppressed by the PEDs. It's what Jose Canseco was most recently busted for trying to smuggle into the country.

It's also the hormone that pregnant women produce that results in a positive pregnancy test.

GoGoCrede
05-07-2009, 02:53 PM
I'm @ work; I bet ESPN has gone into complete "OH MY GOD!!!!!" mode, right?

Yep. I've gotten at least 5 text alerts from them already. All of them are about Manny.

asindc
05-07-2009, 02:57 PM
True, but those 500 people are not making $20 million per year, and one of the conditions of making that much is to adhere to a policy that resticts what you can put in your body. I, for dam sure, would make sure it would be OK to take ANYTHING before it goes in my body. Especially if it's $8M bucks and my reputation on the line.

My statement was not meant to as an alibi to any athlete, baseball or otherwise. My point is that it did not necessarily have to be a steroid or other PED to get Manny suspended, and how easily it could be found in someone's system. The players have the responsibility to be clean and stay clean, so I don't sympathize when they don't.

doublem23
05-07-2009, 03:10 PM
:rolling:

Best. Day. Ever.

Rocky Soprano
05-07-2009, 03:15 PM
:rolling:

Best. Day. Ever.

Couldn't happen to a better guy!

DSpivack
05-07-2009, 03:16 PM
:rolling:

Best. Day. Ever.

If only this happened when he still on the Red Sox.

SoxGirl4Life
05-07-2009, 03:17 PM
I'm @ work; I bet ESPN has gone into complete "OH MY GOD!!!!!" mode, right?


They're having a special Sportscenter at 2:30. :rolleyes:

guillen4life13
05-07-2009, 03:18 PM
I guess I'll take an order of crow for here. Extra whipped cream.

TommyJohn
05-07-2009, 03:18 PM
I really don't agree. No one has yelled "TAINTED" about the A's in the late '80's or the Marlins in '97 (Sheff).


That's right, you don't. But I made the mistake of reading giggly Greg when the Mitchell Report was due out. He TWICE mentioned the possibility that the 2005 White Sox were "tainted." Of course, it was two members of the 2005 Astros that were busted, along with teammates of Sammy. No mention or follow up there.

Guess I have just been reading the Chicago media for too long.

EMachine10
05-07-2009, 03:22 PM
They're having a special Sportscenter at 2:30. :rolleyes:
And when I turned it on during lunch that's the only story I saw. They mentioned and showed the leaderboard for the TPC, as well as break the news that Brad Childress was in fact in Minnesota. Other than that, they've been bringing in "experts" all day long to talk about this.

Noneck
05-07-2009, 03:27 PM
Is it possible for teams to put an out clause in players contracts , if this happens? Do any teams do this?

asindc
05-07-2009, 03:28 PM
If only this happened when he still on the Red Sox.

There is a lot of hand-wringing on one of the Boston message boards about this, as you would imagine. Their fans are bracing themselves for the inevitable W H I S P E R S.

kittle42
05-07-2009, 03:32 PM
They're having a special Sportscenter at 2:30. :rolleyes:

It's no different than CNN and co. broadcasting nonstop on the Octomom. At least ESPN is a sports network and this is a big deal in sports.

voodoochile
05-07-2009, 03:35 PM
Is it possible for teams to put an out clause in players contracts , if this happens? Do any teams do this?

It would require the Players Union to sign off on it during the next CBA. They aren't going to do that and the current system calls for all contracts to be guaranteed, so they aren't going to change their mind anytime soon. Manny already gave back $8M this season by getting suspended.

I would imagine the owners might push for some such wording next time, but I doubt they will go to the wall on the issue, they've gotten rich off of the players using PED's...

Heffalump
05-07-2009, 03:37 PM
So per yahoo sports, http://sports.yahoo.com/mlb/news?slug=ys-ramirezsuspension050709&prov=yhoo&type=lgns, ManRam tested positive for gonadatropin, which essentially 'jumpstarts' your natural testosterone production.

Wow - this gives more credence to the argument that he is a juicer, as this medication is commonly taken by bodybuilders after coming off steroids. Basically, taking steroids for an extended length of time can shut down your bodies natural test production, so the standard "off time" regimen ifor these guys is this stuff, otherwise known as HCG, and another fertility drug called Clomid.

This is huge news. I always thought Manny was a jackass, but I never really thought he was a steroid boy. Oh well, if this is true then in my opinion, he goes in the scrap heap with guys like Big Mac, Sosa, Palmeiro, etc.

esbrechtel
05-07-2009, 03:45 PM
Not really surprised....

That said I can't believe everyone is so sure Quentin is clean. Not that I don't think he is but there are some signs. I really hope he is but the fact that he had been injured for so long, had a break out year, etc. that seems like all the ingredients of a steroid user...

EMachine10
05-07-2009, 03:59 PM
Not really surprised....

That said I can't believe everyone is so sure Quentin is clean. Not that I don't think he is but there are some signs. I really hope he is but the fact that he had been injured for so long, had a break out year, etc. that seems like all the ingredients of a steroid user...
That thought actually ran through my mind a while ago as well, but I have been weary of bringing it up here. I'm in no way saying that Quentin has, but one could be suspicious.

TommyJohn
05-07-2009, 04:05 PM
Not really surprised....

That said I can't believe everyone is so sure Quentin is clean. Not that I don't think he is but there are some signs. I really hope he is but the fact that he had been injured for so long, had a break out year, etc. that seems like all the ingredients of a steroid user...

This has gotten so bad that people are taking any "evidence" at all and pointing it to possible steroid use. One person was doing this with Griffey. Come on. Not every guy who goes through all that is a juicer. Bodies break naturally, too.

I'm not taking a shot at you personally, just at the way every single guy is under suspicion. It's a pathetic state of affairs.

getonbckthr
05-07-2009, 04:17 PM
Quentin is my favorite member of the team right now. However with TCQ's injuries wouldn't he be a logical suspect of the juice?

102605
05-07-2009, 04:24 PM
HCG is used by men in post cycle therapy to bring their own bodies production of testosterone back up to normal levels after being suppressed by the PEDs. It's what Jose Canseco was most recently busted for trying to smuggle into the country.

It's also the hormone that pregnant women produce that results in a positive pregnancy test.

So your saying Manny would test positive on a pregnancy test? :tongue:

doublem23
05-07-2009, 04:34 PM
Bill Simmons with a good perspective on it...

http://sports.espn.go.com/espn/page2/story?page=simmons/090507&sportCat=mlb

beasly213
05-07-2009, 04:35 PM
No HOF for Manny. It really makes you think how great Frank would have looked in the history of the game had all these guys not used PEDs.

Fenway
05-07-2009, 04:37 PM
Bob Ryan ponders

http://www.boston.com/sports/baseball/articles/2009/05/07/just_another_act_in_the_manny_sideshow/

ode to veeck
05-07-2009, 04:38 PM
I believe if the medicine is legally prescribed, they can take it.

not true you can get a legal prescription for about anything, like most PEDs on any list and marajuana even

BoysMom3
05-07-2009, 04:41 PM
I will NEVER buy this excuse. You're making millions. I'd hire a part-time doctor to do nothing but research EVERYTHING I take.

Two thumbs up.

doublem23
05-07-2009, 04:41 PM
No HOF for Manny. It really makes you think how great Frank would have looked in the history of the game had all these guys not used PEDs.

He would be remembered, correctly, as the greatest right-handed hitter in baseball history.

http://z.about.com/d/chicago/1/G/R/0/-/-/FrankThomasGettyImages.jpg

I feel bad for that ball.

ode to veeck
05-07-2009, 04:44 PM
It's no different than CNN and co. broadcasting nonstop on the Octomom. At least ESPN is a sports network and this is a big deal in sports.

i am glad my TV has been off all day

ode to veeck
05-07-2009, 04:49 PM
Bill Simmons with a good perspective on it...

http://sports.espn.go.com/espn/page2/story?page=simmons/090507&sportCat=mlb

They should sell the rights to burn a 50 foot asterisk into the green monster; I'd chip in

ode to veeck
05-07-2009, 04:56 PM
They should sell the rights to burn a 50 foot asterisk into the green monster; I'd chip in


and charge Simmons for child endangerment for brainwashing his kid in the wrong sox and fenway

ode to veeck
05-07-2009, 04:57 PM
He would be remembered, correctly, as the greatest right-handed hitter in baseball history.

http://z.about.com/d/chicago/1/G/R/0/-/-/FrankThomasGettyImages.jpg

I feel bad for that ball.

can we bribe the umpire for the next POTW (after Frater's)

gobears1987
05-07-2009, 05:04 PM
Quentin is my favorite member of the team right now. However with TCQ's injuries wouldn't he be a logical suspect of the juice?
His wrist injures definitely aren't. They are to quote John Madden the result of what happens when "an unstoppable force meets an immovable object."

WhiteSox1983
05-07-2009, 05:07 PM
The only way this will end is if you start taking games won away from teams. Dodgers should go down to 0-31. That way the team suffers and the fans suffer. Teams would make damn sure that players are not being idiots.

doublem23
05-07-2009, 05:14 PM
can we bribe the umpire for the next POTW (after Frater's)

Do you really think you need to bribe me to make my own post the POTW? I'm an attention whore... How else do you think I racked up 24,000 posts?

thomas35forever
05-07-2009, 05:21 PM
Bill Simmons with a good perspective on it...

http://sports.espn.go.com/espn/page2/story?page=simmons/090507&sportCat=mlb
Sadly, you know that when our future kids and grandkids are old enough to understand the history of baseball, they're going to be asking us these questions. I just pray to God that no one on the '05 Sox was 'roiding up at the time.

ode to veeck
05-07-2009, 05:22 PM
Do you really think you need to bribe me to make my own post the POTW? I'm an attention whore... How else do you think I racked up 24,000 posts?

LMAO ok POTW POTW POTW POTW for MM!

ode to veeck
05-07-2009, 05:24 PM
Do you really think you need to bribe me to make my own post the POTW? I'm an attention whore... How else do you think I racked up 24,000 posts?

You are not your post count ... unless you are an attention whore slash moderator LOL

thomas35forever
05-07-2009, 05:27 PM
Manny Tested Positive for Sexual Enhancer (http://sports.yahoo.com/mlb/news?slug=ys-ramirezsuspension050709&prov=yhoo&type=lgns)
:rolling:

ode to veeck
05-07-2009, 05:38 PM
Bob Ryan ponders

http://www.boston.com/sports/baseball/articles/2009/05/07/just_another_act_in_the_manny_sideshow/


don't forget to take the poll on the right hand of this Globe page and voice your own opinions on several wider ramifications, perceptions

ode to veeck
05-07-2009, 05:39 PM
we'll need a new graphic for this thread before the day is out: the steroid injected tomato thread

soxfanreggie
05-07-2009, 05:47 PM
Doesn't surprise me, but why would someone his age do this with millions in the bank and a guaranteed contract to make him millions more.

DSpivack
05-07-2009, 06:00 PM
He would be remembered, correctly, as the greatest right-handed hitter in baseball history.

http://z.about.com/d/chicago/1/G/R/0/-/-/FrankThomasGettyImages.jpg

I feel bad for that ball.

That depends. Is Pujols clean?

ode to veeck
05-07-2009, 06:07 PM
That depends. Is Pujols clean?

(1) Puhols reputation would have to remain clean (including that of his history)

(2) He's only 1/2 the numbers and career of Frank at this point (with slightly better numbers than Frank's early years)

DSpivack
05-07-2009, 06:15 PM
(1) Puhols reputation would have to remain clean (including that of his history)

(2) He's only 1/2 the numbers and career of Frank at this point (with slightly better numbers than Frank's early years)

He should have 350 HRs before he turns 30. I'd say unless he becomes tainted or becomes wrought with injuries, he'll end up better than the Big Hurt, easily.

Marqhead
05-07-2009, 06:42 PM
He should have 350 HRs before he turns 30. I'd say unless he becomes tainted or becomes wrought with injuries, he'll end up better than the Big Hurt, easily.

I'm praying that Pujols is clean. He's our last hope.

DirtySox
05-07-2009, 07:15 PM
Kenny Williams Reaction (http://blogs.chicagosports.chicagotribune.com/sports_hardball/2009/05/ken-williams-rips-manny-ramirez-and-past-violators-.html)

GlassSox
05-07-2009, 07:43 PM
:angry: Manny's at fault and another example of an over paid athlete finally getting caught. Hard to explain these things to kids we want to stay honest and clean

jabrch
05-07-2009, 10:46 PM
Hey guys - lay off of Manny. Maybe he was just trying to get pregnant?

thedudeabides
05-07-2009, 10:49 PM
Kenny Williams Reaction (http://blogs.chicagosports.chicagotribune.com/sports_hardball/2009/05/ken-williams-rips-manny-ramirez-and-past-violators-.html)

Not surprised at Kenny's reaction. From a GM's perspective finding this out would suck if you signed that player. Especially, a long term contract like Gary Mathews Jr. These contracts are guaranteed, so your stuck with them. They need to add some language into the next CBA about this.

SBSoxFan
05-07-2009, 11:11 PM
What's funny is ESPN constantly tries to poo poo everything Canseco says and always hoping what he says isn't true but it looks like he keeps getting more and more credible.

What sucks is no one is without suspicion in MLB right now for PHD. :(:

:scratch: I know Tony LaRussa has a JD, but I don't think there are any doctors playing MLB. :redneck

canOcorn
05-07-2009, 11:14 PM
Manny looks no different (body size) than he did his rookie season. A MLB player would be insane to take steroids these days. HGH is better to make them ripped, is more healthy and isn't tested. I'm inklind to think think he took this for a limp dick, rather than masking a 'roid stack.

Nellie_Fox
05-08-2009, 01:46 AM
I believe if the medicine is legally prescribed, they can take it.No, they can't. You can find a physician to prescribe pretty much anything you want.

I'm inklind to think think he took this for a limp dick, rather than masking a 'roid stack.Then you are incredibly na´ve. And it's not for masking, it's for counteracting the body's shutdown of testosterone production caused by the roiding.

Seriously, think about it. You're a professional baseball player in the current era, and your physician wants to prescribe something to "improve your virility," and you wouldn't be concerned that it might cause a failed drug test? I'm tired of all these "I didn't know what I was taking" excuses.

sullythered
05-08-2009, 01:59 AM
I am no Manny Ramirez fan. I hate the Indians, and I hate the Red Sox even more. I always hated the way that the guy posed and slowly ripped off his batting gloves whenever he homered. Again, I am no Manny Ramirez fan, but I am saddened by this news. Yeah, I want all these guys to be exposed for the cheaters that they are. Only, every time one of them does, it takes away from almost all the amazing stuff I've watched in the game of baseball over the last decade and a half. I can only hope this stuff gets cleaned up now, for good, so I can go back to being amazed by amazing feats, and not forced to question every one I see.

And as always, with every one of these guys who is exposed, Frank Thomas' star shines a little brighter.

white sox bill
05-08-2009, 07:39 AM
So Manny gets caught with his HCG. So is it his PCT or is he trying to get pregnant??

guillen4life13
05-08-2009, 09:19 AM
This has gotten so bad that people are taking any "evidence" at all and pointing it to possible steroid use. One person was doing this with Griffey. Come on. Not every guy who goes through all that is a juicer. Bodies break naturally, too.

I'm not taking a shot at you personally, just at the way every single guy is under suspicion. It's a pathetic state of affairs.

As the guy who alluded to the possibility of Griffey not having been clean throughout his whole career, your second paragraph sums it up perfectly.

In my eyes, the only power hitter I truly, 100% believe didn't juice it up is Frank Thomas, and it makes me even more proud to be a Sox fan. Unless Zizzazz has some added substances that are on the MLB banned substances list.

I wonder how the MLBPA is going to react to this.

RedHeadPaleHoser
05-08-2009, 09:34 AM
No HOF for Manny.

While I agree he doesn't deserve it, he'll eventually get in. The writers will cave because of the selective amnesia and give in.

South Side Irish
05-08-2009, 10:45 AM
These seems pretty easy to understand. Manny reports to camp late, so he juices to get back into shape more quickly. Once he's there, he cycles off and gets into a supplement routine. I would think this is normal, this time of year, for aging sluggers who cheat. Of course Manny can't appeal: he's busted!

I don't know how how some defend him. There are fewer clear-cut cases of a guy cheating, and getting caught. I mean, no appeal. And there's NO WAY the drug could have been for something else.

South Side Irish
05-08-2009, 10:50 AM
While I agree he doesn't deserve it, he'll eventually get in. The writers will cave because of the selective amnesia and give in.

I agree. This is going to be a problem, I think. McGwire won't get in because he was the first big one, and one that "got away." No positive drug test, but the media collectively failed during his career to investigate what are now obvious signs. Rafael won't get in, because of his finger wagging and generally "blah" career (despite what the numbers say). Rocket and Bonds likely won't due to the amount of drugs they apparently too. But I think guys like Tejada, ManRam, Giambi, Sosa... due to no ID or a "one time thing" or for apologizing, these guys are forgiven and get in. I'm just speculating, but the cup is overrunning with suspects. Voters will begin to classify "really guilty" with "not that bad." Again, my total speculation, but they already do it with stats and other forms of "cheating" and impropriety.

TealTank
05-08-2009, 11:14 AM
I agree. This is going to be a problem, I think. McGwire won't get in because he was the first big one, and one that "got away." No positive drug test, but the media collectively failed during his career to investigate what are now obvious signs. Rafael won't get in, because of his finger wagging and generally "blah" career (despite what the numbers say). Rocket and Bonds likely won't due to the amount of drugs they apparently too. But I think guys like Tejada, ManRam, Giambi, Sosa... due to no ID or a "one time thing" or for apologizing, these guys are forgiven and get in. I'm just speculating, but the cup is overrunning with suspects. Voters will begin to classify "really guilty" with "not that bad." Again, my total speculation, but they already do it with stats and other forms of "cheating" and impropriety.


When did Giambi directly apologize for using roids? Never. He made some BS apology but never said what he was sorry for.

He is a fraud just like the rest of the users.

kitekrazy
05-08-2009, 11:38 AM
So how many roid users have Borass as their agent?

southside rocks
05-08-2009, 01:11 PM
Column by George Vecsey in today's NYT, worth a read:

http://www.nytimes.com/2009/05/08/sports/baseball/08vecsey.html?_r=1&ref=sports

jabrch
05-08-2009, 01:29 PM
When did Giambi directly apologize for using roids? Never. He made some BS apology but never said what he was sorry for.

He is a fraud just like the rest of the users.


I was told that for his own legal protection he couldn't really say more than he did... His statement clearly was an apology - but you are right - he's still a fraud.

thedudeabides
05-08-2009, 02:41 PM
I agree. This is going to be a problem, I think. McGwire won't get in because he was the first big one, and one that "got away." No positive drug test, but the media collectively failed during his career to investigate what are now obvious signs. Rafael won't get in, because of his finger wagging and generally "blah" career (despite what the numbers say). Rocket and Bonds likely won't due to the amount of drugs they apparently too. But I think guys like Tejada, ManRam, Giambi, Sosa... due to no ID or a "one time thing" or for apologizing, these guys are forgiven and get in. I'm just speculating, but the cup is overrunning with suspects. Voters will begin to classify "really guilty" with "not that bad." Again, my total speculation, but they already do it with stats and other forms of "cheating" and impropriety.

Giambi and Tejada don't have the numbers to get in. Especially, looking at their careers after it was known they were juicing. I think Sosa will be in the same boat as McGwire. Neither tested positive for anything, so if the writers are going to punish McGwire, they have to punish Sosa. Manny has now tested positive and hasn't apologized, I don't see him getting in unless something changes.

If no information comes out against them until their day comes, Big Frank, Thome, and Griffey are locks. I'm not sure about any other hitters from this era.

khan
05-08-2009, 03:31 PM
If no information comes out against them until their day comes, Big Frank, Thome, and Griffey are locks. I'm not sure about any other hitters from this era.

What about Fred McGriff?

DSpivack
05-08-2009, 04:04 PM
What about Fred McGriff?

He's not close to being on the level of the other 3. Not sure if he's a HOF.

khan
05-08-2009, 04:16 PM
He's not close to being on the level of the other 3. Not sure if he's a HOF.

Oh, I agree that he's not on their level. But in terms of him being clean, I'd say that it was likely that he was. In terms of the Hall of Pretty Good, look at his numbers, then look at Jim Rice's numbers.

Nellie_Fox
05-08-2009, 04:19 PM
In terms of the Hall of Pretty Good, look at his numbers, then look at Jim Rice's numbers.It's. Not. About. Numbers.

McGriff never scared opposing teams the way Rice did.

khan
05-08-2009, 04:22 PM
It's. Not. About. Numbers.
How else do you quantify greatness?

McGriff never scared opposing teams the way Rice did.
This is superficial, at best. How do you know this? How do you quantify "scaring" the opposition? No offense, but this is a lazy argument on your part.

thedudeabides
05-08-2009, 04:51 PM
What about Fred McGriff?

I don't think he gets in, but he has to be re-evaluated now. There may be a couple of other names out there, but I guess that depends on the years you would define this era by.

eriqjaffe
05-08-2009, 05:04 PM
What about Fred McGriff?He should get in solely on the strength of those Tom Emanski video endorsements.

http://3.bp.blogspot.com/_JlrN8f-HDhk/SHwsrhcyyxI/AAAAAAAAAjI/jxYESf44hbQ/s320/emanski_mcgriff.jpg

canOcorn
05-08-2009, 10:34 PM
Then you are incredibly na´ve. And it's not for masking, it's for counteracting the body's shutdown of testosterone production caused by the roiding.

Actually it's used for masking because an extemely low testosterone count will trigger a flag too.

http://ndarc.med.unsw.edu.au/NDARCWeb.nsf/resources/NDARCFact_Drugs3/$file/HCG+NDARC+FACT+SHEET.pdf

Seriously, think about it. You're a professional baseball player in the current era, and your physician wants to prescribe something to "improve your virility," and you wouldn't be concerned that it might cause a failed drug test? I'm tired of all these "I didn't know what I was taking" excuses.

I never said he wasn't an idiot for not getting the drug approved. I've stated he has no characteristics of someone who has taken 'roids. And seriously, if you're Manny you take HGH if you're looking for that edge. He can afford the price, enjoy the superior benefits and they don't test for it. This isn't 2003...:shrug:

Nellie_Fox
05-09-2009, 01:26 AM
How else do you quantify greatness? Well, if you want to "quantify" anything, of course you have to use numbers. However, I disagree with the idea that entry into the HOF has to be "quantified." It's "fame." Who will be remembered long after he's gone, and who won't.


This is superficial, at best. How do you know this? How do you quantify "scaring" the opposition? No offense, but this is a lazy argument on your part.I don't "quantify" it. It has to be a number to be "quantified," by definition. Personally, I think relying simply on numbers to decide who belongs in the HOF is a lazy argument. Evaluating the impact a player had on the game in his era is not. And saying "no offense" doesn't mean you didn't intend to offend.

SoxandtheCityTee
05-09-2009, 09:09 AM
Sorry if this repeats old info -- I'm off to run errands and can't read the whole thread. This was news to me, heard this a.m. on the radio:

1. Manny gave a urine sample in spring training, per routine testing.

2. They test for abnormally high levels of testosterone, and he had them.

3. The next step is a test whose name went by too fast for me -- it determines how much of the testosterone is your own and how much came from somewhere else.

4. While this process was still ongoing, MLB saw from the paperwork flying back and forth that Manny had a prescription for HCG, a banned substance in and of itself.

5. In light of this, MLB cut short the high-testosterone testing process and just went with the 50-day ban for the HCG.

If true, it answers a question I had, which was how they got to the HCG prescription off a test.

It also brings Manny's non-explanation explanation into question, as the "personal" reasons for prescribing the HCG wouldn't logically include low levels if he'd already tested for high levels.

Source is TJ Quinn, an investigative reporter for ESPN.

ode to veeck
05-09-2009, 12:12 PM
I don't "quantify" it. It has to be a number to be "quantified," by definition. Personally, I think relying simply on numbers to decide who belongs in the HOF is a lazy argument. Evaluating the impact a player had on the game in his era is not. And saying "no offense" doesn't mean you didn't intend to offend.

Exactly and Jim Rice was one of the most intimidating hitters of his time, just like Nolan Ryan and Bob Gipson from the mound--to just use numbers is just plain ignoring / missing some of the best parts of the game

Paulwny
05-09-2009, 01:31 PM
Well, if you want to "quantify" anything, of course you have to use numbers. However, I disagree with the idea that entry into the HOF has to be "quantified." It's "fame." Who will be remembered long after he's gone, and who won't.


I don't "quantify" it. It has to be a number to be "quantified," by definition. Personally, I think relying simply on numbers to decide who belongs in the HOF is a lazy argument. Evaluating the impact a player had on the game in his era is not. And saying "no offense" doesn't mean you didn't intend to offend.

Exactly and Jim Rice was one of the most intimidating hitters of his time, just like Nolan Ryan and Bob Gipson from the mound--to just use numbers is just plain ignoring / missing some of the best parts of the game


Yep, numbers only tell part of the story.

khan
05-11-2009, 11:51 AM
Well, if you want to "quantify" anything, of course you have to use numbers.
Thank you for agreeing with me.

However, I disagree with the idea that entry into the HOF has to be "quantified." It's "fame." Who will be remembered long after he's gone, and who won't.
And I agree with you here:

Put all the cheating cheaters like Manny and Sosa and A-Fraud and McGuire and Tejada and Clemens into the HOF. After all, they'll be "famous" for a long time, right? After all its about "fame," not about conferring greatness, no? I mean, since Jim Rice had the benefit of Boston being over-represented by the baseball writers, and polesmoked by ESPN, he's "famous." He doesn't necessarily have to be great, right?


I don't "quantify" it. It has to be a number to be "quantified," by definition. Personally, I think relying simply on numbers to decide who belongs in the HOF is a lazy argument.
That's odd, you just agreed with me earlier in this same post.

Evaluating the impact a player had on the game in his era is not. And saying "no offense" doesn't mean you didn't intend to offend.
Sure: Just because some polesmoking Boston sportswriters and ESPN say, "Jim Rice was great/Jim Rice was one of the most intimidating hitters of his era" you believe it without examining his actual performance?

How about if someone said, "Greg Luzinski was one of the most intimidating hitters of his era." Does that ALSO entitle him to enshrinement?

And again, I'm really not trying to offend. I'm just illustrating how silly it is to use the superficial titles like "most intimidating hitter of his era," without proper evidence to support these statements.

Nellie_Fox
05-11-2009, 12:33 PM
Thank you for agreeing with me.


And I agree with you here:

Put all the cheating cheaters like Manny and Sosa and A-Fraud and McGuire and Tejada and Clemens into the HOF. After all, they'll be "famous" for a long time, right? After all its about "fame," not about conferring greatness, no? I mean, since Jim Rice had the benefit of Boston being over-represented by the baseball writers, and polesmoked by ESPN, he's "famous." He doesn't necessarily have to be great, right?



That's odd, you just agreed with me earlier in this same post.


Sure: Just because some polesmoking Boston sportswriters and ESPN say, "Jim Rice was great/Jim Rice was one of the most intimidating hitters of his era" you believe it without examining his actual performance?

How about if someone said, "Greg Luzinski was one of the most intimidating hitters of his era." Does that ALSO entitle him to enshrinement?

And again, I'm really not trying to offend. I'm just illustrating how silly it is to use the superficial titles like "most intimidating hitter of his era," without proper evidence to support these statements.Okay, you go on deciding who should be in the HOF by using a spreadsheet. I prefer to watch them play.

You cannot "quantify" everything in baseball, and it is the continued attempt to do so with made-up stats that is silly. Oh, and by the way, by your methods, ALL of the cheaters you listed above should get in. They have the numbers.

khan
05-11-2009, 12:52 PM
Okay, you go on deciding who should be in the HOF by using a spreadsheet. I prefer to watch them play.
Ah yes. The famous "I don't believe in them there new-fangled numbers" argument, usually brought on by the older crew.

You cannot "quantify" everything in baseball, and it is the continued attempt to do so with made-up stats that is silly.
Are HR "made-up stats?" How about hitting into double plays? How about hits?

Oh, and by the way, by your methods, ALL of the cheaters you listed above should get in. They have the numbers.
But Manny "scares opposing teams," right? So did Sosa. So did Palmeiro. So did McGuire. So did Canseco. They all "scared opposing teams," and probably better than Jim Rice did.

By your standards, hitters that "scared opposing teams" should always be be in, right? [EDIT] "Famous" players should ALSO should be inducted, right? After all, [in your words] [I]It's "fame."

ode to veeck
05-11-2009, 01:40 PM
How about if someone said, "Greg Luzinski was one of the most intimidating hitters of his era." Does that ALSO entitle him to enshrinement?

.

Except that we saw the '82 playoffs when he watched called 3rd strikes left and right

captainclutch24
05-11-2009, 10:22 PM
http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/news/story?id=4159870

Apparently, he tested positive for the female thing, and their was also an unidentified synthetic in his body that had his testosterone levels above 4:1 which usually means steroids.

WhiteSox1989
05-11-2009, 10:29 PM
I haven't commented on this subject yet. When I initially heard the news, I was actually surprised, but I shouldn't have been.

I guess I was naive, but I never really thought Manny was using steroids.

DirtySox
05-12-2009, 09:55 AM
http://www.juanpierrewood.com/

RockyMtnSoxFan
05-12-2009, 11:35 AM
http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/news/story?id=4159870

Apparently, he tested positive for the female thing, and their was also an unidentified synthetic in his body that had his testosterone levels above 4:1 which usually means steroids.

There's really very little doubt now that he was using steroids. The hCG would never have come to light if he hadn't been caught for elevated levels of synthetic testosterone to begin with. The only questions that remain are how long has he been using, and how much.

I kind of wonder if he had been considering quitting the roids this year. He talked a lot in ST and early on about how he was starting to get older and his body wasn't cooperating any more. I suspect that he was getting nervous, felt like he'd gotten his last big paycheck, and was ready to go natural and enter the decline phase of his career. But apparently his ego wouldn't let him quit.

In a side note, I think this is the story with David Ortiz as well. He's seen Clemens, A-Rod, and now Manny go down, so he decided to quit rather than be caught.

EndemicSox
05-12-2009, 02:45 PM
:angry: Manny's at fault and another example of an over paid athlete finally getting caught. Hard to explain these things to kids we want to stay honest and clean


I lose all respect for turds like Manny because of what they say AFTER they are caught. If one of these over-grown, mouth-breathing children would simply man up and say, "yes, I used steroids, everybody was using, and I'd do it again because it helped make me rich beyond my wildest dreams" I'd have a little more respect. But instead they hide behind their lawyers and the MLBPA. Turds, the lot of them...

Either allow the players to use whatever they wish, or give them one do-over(162 game suspension) followed by a life-time ban. There should be no middle ground, as the game is a joke at the moment. The testing is still a joke, and the players are still juicing...and why not, they have the money to stay one step ahead of the scientific testing curve.

jabrch
05-12-2009, 03:20 PM
Nobody thinks he is trying to get pregnant?

Huisj
06-19-2009, 11:54 PM
Apparently, Ramirez is starting his minor league rehab stint next week before rejoining the Dodgers on July 3, which would mark 50 games for LA since he was suspended.

Is anyone else puzzled by the way this works? It seems to me that 50 games should mean you can not play, majors or minors, until 50 games have passed for the team you were on when you were suspended. Why should be be allowed a rehab stint of playing in the minors while he's still under suspension? That makes no sense to me.

And how is one just allowed a rehab stint in the minors anyway? He isn't on the DL; there is no injury he is rehabbing. To go to the minors without a real reason like an injury, it seems he should have to pass through the same process than any other veteran on a big league team would have to go through to be sent down. Is it because when he's suspended he's on an inactive list and not actually on the 25 man roster?

I guess even with a more strict policy, they throw in loopholes that make it not as harsh as it seems it should be.

Boondock Saint
06-20-2009, 12:04 AM
Apparently, Ramirez is starting his minor league rehab stint next week before rejoining the Dodgers on July 3, which would mark 50 games for LA since he was suspended.

Is anyone else puzzled by the way this works? It seems to me that 50 games should mean you can not play, majors or minors, until 50 games have passed for the team you were on when you were suspended. Why should be be allowed a rehab stint of playing in the minors while he's still under suspension? That makes no sense to me.

And how is one just allowed a rehab stint in the minors anyway? He isn't on the DL; there is no injury he is rehabbing. To go to the minors without a real reason like an injury, it seems he should have to pass through the same process than any other veteran on a big league team would have to go through to be sent down. Is it because when he's suspended he's on an inactive list and not actually on the 25 man roster?

I guess even with a more strict policy, they throw in loopholes that make it not as harsh as it seems it should be.

My guess is that it's because he isn't playing for the major league team, helping them in any way, or getting paid for his rehab stint. The suspension means that he can't play in MLB for fifty games. It doesn't mean that he can't get ready to play for once he is off his suspension.

voodoochile
06-20-2009, 12:07 AM
Apparently, Ramirez is starting his minor league rehab stint next week before rejoining the Dodgers on July 3, which would mark 50 games for LA since he was suspended.

Is anyone else puzzled by the way this works? It seems to me that 50 games should mean you can not play, majors or minors, until 50 games have passed for the team you were on when you were suspended. Why should be be allowed a rehab stint of playing in the minors while he's still under suspension? That makes no sense to me.

And how is one just allowed a rehab stint in the minors anyway? He isn't on the DL; there is no injury he is rehabbing. To go to the minors without a real reason like an injury, it seems he should have to pass through the same process than any other veteran on a big league team would have to go through to be sent down. Is it because when he's suspended he's on an inactive list and not actually on the 25 man roster?

I guess even with a more strict policy, they throw in loopholes that make it not as harsh as it seems it should be.

Um... Manny just lost ~1/3 of his salary. That's about $6M. I don't see how you can say that because he is allowed to rehab in advance so he can rejoin the team right at 50 days makes that easier to swallow.

However, this is the first time someone got one of these suspensions, so MLB is kind of learning on the fly. I'm sure it's built into the CBA, but because baseball more than any other sport relies on timing and confidence It seems an okay thing to let the violators get in some practice time before they come back.

In theory it's not the team's fault so why should they be punished?

Windy City
06-20-2009, 12:55 AM
they have the money to stay one step ahead of the scientific testing curve.

It is impossible to stay ahead of the curve when you don't know what will be developed next. There is probably some chemist coming up with a designer drug right now. Sure, you can test for a certain PED, but what if a player is taking something the test can't detect?

Huisj
06-20-2009, 01:23 AM
Um... Manny just lost ~1/3 of his salary. That's about $6M. I don't see how you can say that because he is allowed to rehab in advance so he can rejoin the team right at 50 days makes that easier to swallow.

However, this is the first time someone got one of these suspensions, so MLB is kind of learning on the fly. I'm sure it's built into the CBA, but because baseball more than any other sport relies on timing and confidence It seems an okay thing to let the violators get in some practice time before they come back.

In theory it's not the team's fault so why should they be punished?

I guess I'm confused about how someone can join a minor league team without something else happening. Maybe it is a learning on the fly process like you said and they're allowing it to happen because they don't know of another way of doing it, but usually if a player were to be sent down, they'd need to clear waivers or be optioned unless they were going to rehab an injury. I guess they're treating the suspension as something along the lines of being on the DL.

I suppose it would suck for the team if he had to get ready to play after the suspension was over. But taking steroids also sucks a lot for the whole game, and to me, 50 games should mean 50 games. If he needs a chance to get ready after he's say for 50 games, then let him rehab then.

Here's a question. What if someone in the majors went on a tirade and did something like throw a bat at an ump (like Delmon Young in the minors) or something worse and they got suspended for 10 or 20 games because of the fight. Would they be allowed to go "rehab" in the minors before their suspension was up so they could stay sharp for their return?

Nellie_Fox
06-20-2009, 02:15 AM
My guess is that it's because he isn't playing for the major league team, helping them in any way, or getting paid for his rehab stint. The suspension means that he can't play in MLB for fifty games. It doesn't mean that he can't get ready to play for once he is off his suspension.It should mean that he can't play in organized baseball for the period of his suspension. Baseball's drug policy is still an embarrassment.

CLR01
06-20-2009, 05:05 AM
In theory it's not the team's fault so why should they be punished?


One could argue that the suspension itself is punishment for the team. I mean, why should they lose his production in the lineup?

Does this mean that players at all levels can now just be moved up or down when facing a suspension? If he wants to get his timing down let him do it for Newark or some other independant team ala Ricky Williams and the CFL.

voodoochile
06-20-2009, 11:06 AM
No, it doesn't mean a player can be moved up or down on a whim, it means that under certain circumstances - now including 50 game drug suspensions - a player is allowed to rehab in the minors so they can be ready to play right when the suspension is over. Given that the Dodgers are paying Manny ~$130K/game, I'm sure it was a give to the owners as much as anything...

Huisj
06-20-2009, 11:13 AM
No, it doesn't mean a player can be moved up or down on a whim, it means that under certain circumstances - now including 50 game drug suspensions - a player is allowed to rehab in the minors so they can be ready to play right when the suspension is over. Given that the Dodgers are paying Manny ~$130K/game, I'm sure it was a give to the owners as much as anything...


I wonder if a young guy making $500k/year would get this kind of a deal.

FarWestChicago
06-20-2009, 11:16 AM
One could argue that the suspension itself is punishment for the team. I mean, why should they lose his production in the lineup? Because they signed a lying, cheating douchebag. If I hire an asshat, I have to deal with it. Why shouldn't the LALALALALADodgers? :dunno:

Look at the bright side, if BA got nailed on his test you would rally for him to start every game for the Sox during his suspension. :cool:

http://www.tvcrazy.net/tvclassics/wallpaper/oldshows/greatest-american/ralph-hinkley.jpg

voodoochile
06-20-2009, 11:32 AM
I wonder if a young guy making $500k/year would get this kind of a deal.

Obviously...

CLR01
06-20-2009, 05:51 PM
Because they signed a lying, cheating douchebag. If I hire an asshat, I have to deal with it. Why shouldn't the LALALALALADodgers? :dunno:

I'm not the one saying they shouldn't.

Look at the bright side, if BA got nailed on his test you would rally for him to start every game for the Sox during his suspension. :cool:




Brian Anderson doesn't take steroids. Steroids take Brian Anderson.

decolores9628
06-23-2009, 12:46 AM
The whole point of being suspended is NOT being able to play baseball, right? I know this is allowed but I don't think this should happen.

I think he should be able to start his rehab on July 3rd and not now.

All his at bats will be on ESPN News.

Thoughts?

Rohan
06-23-2009, 12:49 AM
He's on my fantasy team. Let the kid play.

Whappeh
06-23-2009, 09:13 AM
He's on my fantasy team. Let the kid play.

I'm of that opinion too... Him and Quentin are killing me right now.

ChiSoxFan81
06-23-2009, 10:41 AM
The whole point of being suspended is NOT being able to play baseball, right? I know this is allowed but I don't think this should happen.

I think he should be able to start his rehab on July 3rd and not now.

All his at bats will be on ESPN News.

Thoughts?

It's perverse. The Booyah's are never again allowed to report on the evils of PEDs when they are airing Manny's rehab at-bats. What a joke. Next they'll probably advocate stuffing the ballot to get Manny in the AS game.

mccoydp
06-23-2009, 09:45 PM
Did anyone see the gag-fest tonight on the MLB Network? They showed "exclusive" footage of Manny getting ready at the Isotopes' stadium, and followed him into the dugout. They promised to show every Manny at-bat tonight.

Nothing like worshiping a cheater, huh? What a monumental event!

TDog
06-23-2009, 10:45 PM
The whole point of being suspended is NOT being able to play baseball, right? I know this is allowed but I don't think this should happen.

I think he should be able to start his rehab on July 3rd and not now.

All his at bats will be on ESPN News.

Thoughts?

The rehab availability was negotiated as part of the suspension that was negotiated. Ramirez isn't being treated any differently than anything else. I don't have a problem with the rehab.

Complain that the suspension should be longer, if you will, but it is what it is.

Nellie_Fox
06-24-2009, 02:10 AM
He's on my fantasy team. Let the kid play.

I'm of that opinion too... Him and Quentin are killing me right now.Yeah, that's what matters. Fantasy baseball. :rolleyes:

Huisj
07-14-2009, 09:51 PM
Looks like Selig wants things changed so that during the 50 game suspensions, you can't go "rehab" in the minors to get ready. Go Bud! I agree with you completely.

http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/news/story?id=4327069

Steve Phillips disagrees (watch the video clip), but he would because he's thinking of it from a team payroll/GM perspective.

Gammons makes an interesting point in that if you are caught in the minors, you are out for 50 games period. It's not like if you get caught at AA you can go down to low A to get ready to return to AA. Of heck, if you got caught at AAA, you wouldn't be able to get called up and play in the majors during your suspension, right? So why should you be able to go down from the bigs to the minors?

asindc
07-14-2009, 10:12 PM
Looks like Selig wants things changed so that during the 50 game suspensions, you can't go "rehab" in the minors to get ready. Go Bud! I agree with you completely.

http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/news/story?id=4327069

Steve Phillips disagrees (watch the video clip), but he would because he's thinking of it from a team payroll/GM perspective.

Gammons makes an interesting point in that if you are caught in the minors, you are out for 50 games period. It's not like if you get caught at AA you can go down to low A to get ready to return to AA. Of heck, if you got caught at AAA, you wouldn't be able to get called up and play in the majors during your suspension, right? So why should you be able to go down from the bigs to the minors?

Phillips is a lone voice on this, and for good reason. 50 games is 50 games, period.

thomas35forever
07-14-2009, 10:19 PM
I actually agree with Selig on something. I didn't quite understand why he was rehabbing in the minors when he wasn't even hurt. Clemens in '07 was a whole different story. Serve your suspension and be done with it.