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Sockinchisox
05-04-2009, 10:24 PM
Ozzie says Walker's job is safe.

http://blogs.suntimes.com/whitesox/2009/05/guillen_says_walkers_job_is_sa.html

TheOldRoman
05-04-2009, 10:29 PM
:facepalm:

LoveYourSuit
05-04-2009, 10:32 PM
Ozzie says Walker's job is safe.

http://blogs.suntimes.com/whitesox/2009/05/guillen_says_walkers_job_is_sa.html


With Ozzie's management of today's game and not sending anyone to bunt a guy along with a CY Young Candidate on the mound ... I would start looking at his direction for people who need to start being questioned here.

thomas35forever
05-04-2009, 10:34 PM
The ****? We gotta put up with him for another year? That's crap.

WhiteSox5187
05-04-2009, 10:38 PM
Even if it isn't/wasn't safe Ozzie wasn't going to come out and say "yea, we should probably fire our hitting coach."

chisoxfanatic
05-04-2009, 10:40 PM
It's too bad Ozzie can't see trends. I wish I could do a crummy job somewhere and get paid enough to live a lavish life.

Frater Perdurabo
05-04-2009, 10:47 PM
Previously, I thought Ozzie was a decent manager who had some faults.

But now I am beginning to question Ozzie's competence and fitness for the job.

I think he thinks he can just rest on his 2005 laurels.

Tragg
05-04-2009, 10:51 PM
At some point, someone needs to bear responsibility.
Judging offensive skill and ability has never been a strength of Ozzie Guillen as manager.

Hartman
05-04-2009, 10:52 PM
You know when teams perform poorly, their coach is usually fired as a consequence, even though it may not be entirely his fault?

This is one of those situations, with Walker.

LoveYourSuit
05-04-2009, 10:52 PM
Previously, I thought Ozzie was a decent manager who had some faults.

But now I am beginning to question Ozzie's competence and fitness for the job.

I think he thinks he can just rest on his 2005 laurels.


The errogance by him and Kenny is starting to run thin on me.

Let's not forget this charming offseason he put together:
Lilibridge, Marquez, Betemit...


Flowers and Nunez better be the real deal, and it better be soon.

Brian26
05-04-2009, 11:01 PM
I can't believe Gary Ward would be considered a candidate to be hitting coach again. That's unfathomable.

:fireward

kittle42
05-04-2009, 11:05 PM
The errogance by him and Kenny is starting to run thin on me.

Let's not forget this charming offseason he put together:
Lilibridge, Marquez, Betemit...


Flowers and Nunez better be the real deal, and it better be soon.

Under the radar.

LoveYourSuit
05-04-2009, 11:07 PM
Under the radar.


Chicago tough
:puking:

voodoochile
05-04-2009, 11:09 PM
What a bunch of whiners...:rolleyes:

DirtySox
05-04-2009, 11:10 PM
Grinder?

WhiteSox5187
05-04-2009, 11:22 PM
Honest to ****ing God, do you expect Ozzie to come out and say "Yea the hitters better start hitting because I'm gonna fire Walker if they don't pretty soon." NO! No manager EVER says anything like that.

And finally at what point to we stop and think "jeez, maybe the players suck." Honest to God, Konerko, Thome, Dye and Quentin are there to hit home runs! They aren't there to move runners over or go the other way, that's just who they are! I'm not sure what more is expected of Walker, but I think that this is akin to the "dreaded vote of confidence."

Finally, we have to ask ourselves what exactly are we expecting out of a line up that features guys like Quentin, Dye, Thome and Konerko? This is a line up built around the long ball, it's not Walker's fault that Kenny keeps handing him the same lineup year in and year out. Those guys are what they are and Jesus Christ can not change that lineup.

doublem23
05-04-2009, 11:29 PM
Even if it isn't/wasn't safe Ozzie wasn't going to come out and say "yea, we should probably fire our hitting coach."

Yeah, that's what I would think, not to mention, this isn't only Ozzie's decision to make, is it?

doublem23
05-04-2009, 11:32 PM
It's too bad Ozzie can't see trends. I wish I could do a crummy job somewhere and get paid enough to live a lavish life.

Uh, we are the defending division champs, so let's not act like he's been managing the Pirates for the past 10 years. We're hitting another rough patch, yes, but we're only 20 games into the season and, honestly, Connie Mack, John McGraw, and Sparky Anderson would probably struggle if they had to pencil Jayson Nix, Brent Lillibridge, and Scott Podsednik in their starting lineup.

voodoochile
05-04-2009, 11:45 PM
Uh, we are the defending division champs, so let's not act like he's been managing the Pirates for the past 10 years. We're hitting another rough patch, yes, but we're only 20 games into the season and, honestly, Connie Mack, John McGraw, and Sparky Anderson would probably struggle if they had to pencil Jayson Nix, Brent Lillibridge, and Scott Podsednik in their starting lineup.


Shhh... don't tell Frater. Ozzie's resting on his 2005 laurels...

Soxfest
05-04-2009, 11:45 PM
Bottom line is Walker has not done his job in a long time, Sox will be last in AL in runs per game after tonight!

oeo
05-04-2009, 11:51 PM
This thread is funny.

voodoochile
05-04-2009, 11:52 PM
This thread is funny.

yeah, but not Ha Ha funny...:?:

oeo
05-04-2009, 11:56 PM
yeah, but not Ha Ha funny...:?:

Yeah it is. The fact that Ozzie was even asked this question is hilarious. Everyone knows my feelings of Greg Walker, I think he should have been gone over two years ago. However, now isn't the time to start freaking out and making knee-jerk decisions. That type of change could mean even more trouble this early in the season.

Let's relax, try to tread some water here and get healthy. When things warm up and we heal up a bit, the bats should be okay. The pitching staff is a whole different can of worms, however...

WhiteSox5187
05-05-2009, 12:24 AM
Yeah, that's what I would think, not to mention, this isn't only Ozzie's decision to make, is it?

You know, i'm not too sure. I think if Ozzie told Kenny "I think we need to get rid of Walker" Kenny would approve.

doublem23
05-05-2009, 12:26 AM
You know, i'm not too sure. I think if Ozzie told Kenny "I think we need to get rid of Walker" Kenny would approve.

Probably, but I meant more of in the if KW said, "we're going to fire Walker," Ozzie couldn't overrule him.

TommyGavinFloyd
05-05-2009, 12:35 AM
Didn't we go through enough Ozzie/Walker drama last year? Just pull the plug on him Oz!

michned
05-05-2009, 02:50 AM
You know, i'm not too sure. I think if Ozzie told Kenny "I think we need to get rid of Walker" Kenny would approve.

Yeah, but it's not going to happen. If Walker has lasted this long, I don't think there is any way in hell he'll get fired. Personally, I'd rather fire some of our hitters.

JB98
05-05-2009, 02:54 AM
Yeah, but it's not going to happen. If Walker has lasted this long, I don't think there is any way in hell he'll get fired. Personally, I'd rather fire some of our hitters.

Me too. I don't buy this bull**** about Ozzie "resting on his 2005 laurels." Ozzie and staff guided what I thought was a very mediocre roster to the playoffs just one season ago.

Ozzie and staff have once again been handed a very mediocre roster, with a lack of depth that is showing right now.

I don't agree with every move Ozzie makes, but I think there is a lot of misdirected anger here at WSI.

Frater Perdurabo
05-05-2009, 07:00 AM
Honest to ****ing God, do you expect Ozzie to come out and say "Yea the hitters better start hitting because I'm gonna fire Walker if they don't pretty soon." NO! No manager EVER says anything like that.

What I want Ozzie to say is, "We're not hitting the way we need to, especially against mediocre pitchers. I'm sick and tired of "tipping my cap" to them."

Frater Perdurabo
05-05-2009, 07:13 AM
Me too. I don't buy this bull**** about Ozzie "resting on his 2005 laurels." Ozzie and staff guided what I thought was a very mediocre roster to the playoffs just one season ago.

Show me one example of how Ozzie has improved in any of the areas in which he was deficient as a manager when he was hired. Never mind, I'll show you how he hasn't:

Robotic bullpen management: Check

Over-loyalty to mediocre hackers and mediocre coaches: Check

Failure to understand OF defense: Check (most recently evident in playing Pods in RF instead of Quentin)

Diarrhea of the mouth: Check

Failure to emphasize fundamentals: Check

IMHO, Ozzie needs to fix at least some of these deficiencies if he wants to avoid being seen as a "Foul Mouth Jerry Manuel."

I'll say it again, a different way: In my opinion, winning the World Series in 2005, in just his second year of managing, has led Ozzie to believe that he does not need to improve. "Why do I need to improve if I'm good enough to win it all in just my second year?"

Many of us work in jobs where we are expected to improve every year. I don't see Ozzie trying to rectify any of those deficiencies, and it pisses me off because it's leading to unnecessary losses.

ode to veeck
05-05-2009, 07:34 AM
Uh, we are the defending division champs, so let's not act like he's been managing the Pirates for the past 10 years. We're hitting another rough patch, yes, but we're only 20 games into the season and, honestly, Connie Mack, John McGraw, and Sparky Anderson would probably struggle if they had to pencil Jayson Nix, Brent Lillibridge, and Scott Podsednik in their starting lineup.

Cmon Pods is on fire at the plate in a whopping two games so far

HebrewHammer
05-05-2009, 09:48 AM
Did the article mention how many pizzas Walker brought to the poker game to get Ozzie to say that?

I'm assuming it took more than the usual "couple bags of pretzels" to get the vote of confidence.

russ99
05-05-2009, 09:50 AM
Probably, but I meant more of in the if KW said, "we're going to fire Walker," Ozzie couldn't overrule him.

That's how I see that too. But for now, both Kenny and Ozzie are being patient.

After 3 years of this, he has to be on a short leash. And this also could be the dreaded "vote of confidence" before being let go.

jabrch
05-05-2009, 10:04 AM
Previously, I thought Ozzie was a decent manager who had some faults.

But now I am beginning to question Ozzie's competence and fitness for the job.

I think he thinks he can just rest on his 2005 laurels.

And you think Paul Konerko sucks. We know. You are entitled to having an opionion.

thedudeabides
05-05-2009, 10:20 AM
And you think Paul Konerko sucks. We know. You are entitled to having an opionion.

It's the Sox first three game losing streak. Did you expect anything less than at least two of our coaches to be fired?

doublem23
05-05-2009, 10:29 AM
It's the Sox first three game losing streak. Did you expect anything less than at least two of our coaches to be fired?

We have the 2nd worst offense in the American League, and the Sox offense has been more or less underwhelming every year since 2006. People have been calling for Greg Walker's head for over a year now. So no, this isn't a kneejerk reaction that you're trying to pretend it is.

jabrch
05-05-2009, 10:29 AM
It's the Sox first three game losing streak. Did you expect anything less than at least two of our coaches to be fired?

Nope - my expectations of our fans can't get much lower.

doublem23
05-05-2009, 10:34 AM
Nope - my expectations of our fans can't get much lower.

Oh quit your condescending garbage. I'm sorry that not everyone just enjoys watching the Sox get manhandled by every no name pitcher in the American League. I'm sorry that not everyone is enthralled with the American League's 2nd least potent offense. We're near the bottom of the AL in just about every concievable offensive statistic (at best, we're in the middle). So quit pretending like you're the world's #1 Sox fan just because you can pretend like everything's OK when some of us can see that it might not be. This doesn't mean we're not supporting the Sox or that we don't want to see them win, after 4 weeks, some of us are just starting to see the writing on the wall. Our offense sucks, and we don't have the pitching to keep us afloat all year. These guys got to start hitting.

102605
05-05-2009, 10:39 AM
Same **** different year.

Domeshot17
05-05-2009, 10:46 AM
I said it in the offseason and got roasted, so Ive got my firesuit on for this one.

This is on Kenny, not Walker. Walker is dealing with having to plug Kenny's magic diamond in the rough of the offseason, Lillibridge, and is inability to do anything good offensively but run, into the lineup. He has 2 guys who weren't good enough to play on a poor Colorado Rockies team in his lineup. He has guys hitting way out of position because there is no other choice. Which means on a guy like Fields, he either has to teach him to go against what he does best as a hitter in order to hit properly for the 2 hole OR Keep hitting like a 5 or 6 hitter and not do the little things a 2 hitter does.

He has a Rookie hitting leadoff, and flourishing, but again out of position.

He has Alexei Ramirez who can't deal with cold weather and doesn't hit much until the warmer weather comes in.

He has the usual suspects of all or nothing sluggers, half of whom are banged up.

You want to point a finger, point it at Kenny Williams arrogance. This is the 2nd year in a row he has just decided to prove you don't need guys in proper roles to make the playoffs. Is it really a shock we had guys like Swisher and Cabrera have such big down years when they are hitting out of position constantly butting heads with management? Even AJ came out and said he really doesn't enjoy being the 2 hitter.

Kenny literally has a lineup where at any given day you either have 2-4 square pegs jammed into round holes or you have really crappy circles going into round holes. Walker, if fired, would be a scape goat.

thedudeabides
05-05-2009, 10:47 AM
Oh quit your condescending garbage. I'm sorry that not everyone just enjoys watching the Sox get manhandled by every no name pitcher in the American League. I'm sorry that not everyone is enthralled with the American League's 2nd least potent offense. We're near the bottom of the AL in just about every concievable offensive statistic (at best, we're in the middle). So quit pretending like you're the world's #1 Sox fan just because you can pretend like everything's OK when some of us can see that it might not be. This doesn't mean we're not supporting the Sox or that we don't want to see them win, after 4 weeks, some of us are just starting to see the writing on the wall. Our offense sucks, and we don't have the pitching to keep us afloat all year. These guys got to start hitting.


I understand what your saying. It's just that it's very predictable that the same few posters are always wanting to fire Walker/Guillen whenever something is going wrong. This offense is really bad right now, but take a look at the lineups we are trotting out there. Three outfielders, our starting third baseman, starting second baseman, and DH have all missed time. And it's 25 games into the season and we are 1 game below .500.

Nevermind the large amount of success the coaching staff has brought, when the teams slumping fire them all.

This offense is really difficult to watch right now, but in no way do I expect it to keep up like this all year.

asindc
05-05-2009, 10:47 AM
Show me one example of how Ozzie has improved in any of the areas in which he was deficient as a manager when he was hired. Never mind, I'll show you how he hasn't:

Robotic bullpen management: Check

Over-loyalty to mediocre hackers and mediocre coaches: Check

Failure to understand OF defense: Check (most recently evident in playing Pods in RF instead of Quentin)

Diarrhea of the mouth: Check

Failure to emphasize fundamentals: Check

IMHO, Ozzie needs to fix at least some of these deficiencies if he wants to avoid being seen as a "Foul Mouth Jerry Manuel."

I'll say it again, a different way: In my opinion, winning the World Series in 2005, in just his second year of managing, has led Ozzie to believe that he does not need to improve. "Why do I need to improve if I'm good enough to win it all in just my second year?"

Many of us work in jobs where we are expected to improve every year. I don't see Ozzie trying to rectify any of those deficiencies, and it pisses me off because it's leading to unnecessary losses.

OK, just for giggles, I'll respond to your points:

Robotic bullpen management: Check (I'm assuming you mean adherence to lefty/righty matchups, which I agree should not necessarily dictate who pitches when and to whom. He has had quite a bit of success doing it that way, however, so it's not a sore point for me.)

Over-loyalty to mediocre hackers and mediocre coaches: Check (The mediocre hackers should be replaced by... um, uh, wait a minute, the mediocre hackers are better than the guys they start ahead of [please let's not allow the obligatory CF debate commence to hijack yet another thread].)

Failure to understand OF defense: Check (most recently evident in playing Pods in RF instead of Quentin) (Many managers let their position players stay at their position in such cases, though I would not have objected to Pods in LF and TCQ in RF last night. Keep in mind, though, that Pods can commit that same error last night in LF just as easily as he did in RF.)

Diarrhea of the mouth: Check (For the 487th time, it baffles me how many of my fellow Sox fans don't get that Ozzie knows exactly what he is doing when he talks to the media. More to the point, just how does this adversely affect the team's performance?)

Failure to emphasize fundamentals: Check (Unless you were allowed to attend spring training practices and team meetings, you have no way of knowing this. This statement is pure speculation.)

By the way, I don't think Ozzie, KW, JR, or anyone else in the organization is resting on the 2005 laurels (or the 2008 laurels for that matter). Since 2005, KW has acquired or developed the following players (these lists are players who were either major contributors last year or are this year. They do not include players who are not with the team now):

VIA TRADE or FREE AGENCY
Thome (for Rowand, Gio Gonzalez, and Haigwood)
Danks[+Masset] (for McCarthy)
Floyd[+Gonzalez] (for Garcia)
Ramirez (FA)
Quentin (for Carter)
Dotel (FA)
Linebrink (FA)
Thornton (for Borchard)
Colon (FA)

VIA DRAFT (all were drafted before 2005 except Richard)
Getz
Anderson
Fields
Richard

You might want to add players like Wise and Lillibridge to this list as examples of guys who KW whiffed on, but the larger point remains. These transactions are not indicative of an organization "resting on its laurels." Without these moves, the team does not make the playoffs last year and would not be considered a contender to do so this year.

kobo
05-05-2009, 10:49 AM
Nope - my expectations of our fans can't get much lower.
How's the view on top of the tower?

Noneck
05-05-2009, 10:51 AM
This is on Kenny, not Walker. Walker is dealing with having to plug Kenny's magic diamond in the rough of the offseason, Lillibridge, and is inability to do anything good offensively but run, into the lineup. He has 2 guys who weren't good enough to play on a poor Colorado Rockies team in his lineup. He has guys hitting way out of position because there is no other choice. Which means on a guy like Fields, he either has to teach him to go against what he does best as a hitter in order to hit properly for the 2 hole OR Keep hitting like a 5 or 6 hitter and not do the little things a 2 hitter does.

He has a Rookie hitting leadoff, and flourishing, but again out of position.

He has Alexei Ramirez who can't deal with cold weather and doesn't hit much until the warmer weather comes in.

He has the usual suspects of all or nothing sluggers, half of whom are banged up.

You want to point a finger, point it at Kenny Williams arrogance. This is the 2nd year in a row he has just decided to prove you don't need guys in proper roles to make the playoffs. Is it really a shock we had guys like Swisher and Cabrera have such big down years when they are hitting out of position constantly butting heads with management? Even AJ came out and said he really doesn't enjoy being the 2 hitter.

Kenny literally has a lineup where at any given day you either have 2-4 square pegs jammed into round holes or you have really crappy circles going into round holes. Walker, if fired, would be a scape goat.
Most points are true but without resources , one can't turn a sows ear into a silk purse.

russ99
05-05-2009, 10:53 AM
While I'm still not convinced Kenny's 'kids can play' offseason will result in a contending (or .500) club, I'm willing to wait a few months before passing judgement on that.

That said, Kenny's shuffled the roster twice since 2007, and we're still getting similar results at the plate.

You can't blame Kenny or the players if the same approach for 3 years with different players is getting the same results. What would it hurt if we had new ideas and a new philosopy along with a new hitting coach?

Hopefully this slump is mainly due to injuries, but if we're getting to the end of May with a healthy club and continued poor hitting, something has to be done.

asindc
05-05-2009, 10:54 AM
I said it in the offseason and got roasted, so Ive got my firesuit on for this one.

This is on Kenny, not Walker. Walker is dealing with having to plug Kenny's magic diamond in the rough of the offseason, Lillibridge, and is inability to do anything good offensively but run, into the lineup. He has 2 guys who weren't good enough to play on a poor Colorado Rockies team in his lineup. He has guys hitting way out of position because there is no other choice. Which means on a guy like Fields, he either has to teach him to go against what he does best as a hitter in order to hit properly for the 2 hole OR Keep hitting like a 5 or 6 hitter and not do the little things a 2 hitter does.

He has a Rookie hitting leadoff, and flourishing, but again out of position.

He has Alexei Ramirez who can't deal with cold weather and doesn't hit much until the warmer weather comes in.

He has the usual suspects of all or nothing sluggers, half of whom are banged up.

You want to point a finger, point it at Kenny Williams arrogance. This is the 2nd year in a row he has just decided to prove you don't need guys in proper roles to make the playoffs. Is it really a shock we had guys like Swisher and Cabrera have such big down years when they are hitting out of position constantly butting heads with management? Even AJ came out and said he really doesn't enjoy being the 2 hitter.

Kenny literally has a lineup where at any given day you either have 2-4 square pegs jammed into round holes or you have really crappy circles going into round holes. Walker, if fired, would be a scape goat.

You really think he "just decided" to do this? Wow.

SoxGirl4Life
05-05-2009, 10:58 AM
IMO, we need a thread merge of this and the postgame from yesterday. Same issues being discussed.

very entertaining :bliss:

thedudeabides
05-05-2009, 11:04 AM
While I'm still not convinced Kenny's 'kids can play' offseason will result in a contending (or .500) club, I'm willing to wait a few months before passing judgement on that.

That said, Kenny's shuffled the roster twice since 2007, and we're still getting similar results at the plate.

You can't blame Kenny or the players if the same approach for 3 years with different players is getting the same results. What would it hurt if we had new ideas and a new philosopy along with a new hitting coach?

Hopefully this slump is mainly due to injuries, but if we're getting to the end of May with a healthy club and continued poor hitting, something has to be done.

You make a good point that not much has changed the last few years, but I think the biggest reason is the middle of the lineup being the same, and the lack of people on base at the top.

When Getz and Fields have been in the lineup, they have been getting on base at a good clip. Once the horses get healthy and start hitting, I think the lineup will be fine.

I'm not a huge Greg Walker fan, but I do think it's funny how often people think he's the problem and anything would change with a different hitting coach. Our veteran hitters are who they are, and our lineup is going to live and die with them.

And there have been a lot of positives in the time Walker has been here that people like to ignore. The Sox have finished in the top five in runs scored, three out of the five seasons he's been here, twice in the top three, and 2005 wasn't one of those seasons. Not to mention a long list of players that have developed or improved under him.

Domeshot17
05-05-2009, 11:12 AM
You really think he "just decided" to do this? Wow.

Last year we dealt our top pitching prospect (widely considered a top 50 in baseball prospect) our 2nd best pitching prospect (widely considered a top 60 prospect) and one of our top 10 OF specs in Sweeney for Nick Swisher. Nick Swisher was not a CF, and not a Lead off man. We needed (a) a CF and (b) A leadoff man, so we traded for him and told him that is what you are now.

Now you can try to say no one else was available, but Swisher was not available either. Kenny Williams got incredibly ripped off in the deal because that is the guy he wanted. He knows he overpaid, but he got his guy. If that is not choosing to do it his way vs the way that worked in 2005, I don't know what is.

jabrch
05-05-2009, 11:13 AM
How's the view on top of the tower?


You read the posts here. Tell me you don't exect manic overreactions to everything?

jabrch
05-05-2009, 11:16 AM
Oh quit your condescending garbage. I'm sorry that not everyone just enjoys watching the Sox get manhandled by every no name pitcher in the American League. I'm sorry that not everyone is enthralled with the American League's 2nd least potent offense. We're near the bottom of the AL in just about every concievable offensive statistic (at best, we're in the middle). So quit pretending like you're the world's #1 Sox fan just because you can pretend like everything's OK when some of us can see that it might not be. This doesn't mean we're not supporting the Sox or that we don't want to see them win, after 4 weeks, some of us are just starting to see the writing on the wall. Our offense sucks, and we don't have the pitching to keep us afloat all year. These guys got to start hitting.

Dubs - In the past four years, this team has won a WS, made the playoffs twice, and had a 90 win season that missed the playoffs.

Don't you think your diatribe above is a bit of a negative spin on what has been a good 4 year run?

It has nothing to do with me being the "worlds #1 Sox fan" - I'm not. But we got beat 3-0 by Grienke with all the injuries we have now. I don't see how this is so catastrophic.

asindc
05-05-2009, 11:23 AM
Last year we dealt our top pitching prospect (widely considered a top 50 in baseball prospect) our 2nd best pitching prospect (widely considered a top 60 prospect) and one of our top 10 OF specs in Sweeney for Nick Swisher. Nick Swisher was not a CF, and not a Lead off man. We needed (a) a CF and (b) A leadoff man, so we traded for him and told him that is what you are now.

Now you can try to say no one else was available, but Swisher was not available either. Kenny Williams got incredibly ripped off in the deal because that is the guy he wanted. He knows he overpaid, but he got his guy. If that is not choosing to do it his way vs the way that worked in 2005, I don't know what is.

I was also against the Swisher deal from the very beginning, and for the reasons you give. I didn't think he would be a good fit for the Sox and I was unfortunately right about that. I also have been saying that KW wants to rectify the offensive issues, but the marketplace has not been conducive to doing so. If you think someone better suited could have been had for the same price (in prospects and salary) as what Swisher was acquired for, I'd like to know who that is.

kobo
05-05-2009, 11:29 AM
You read the posts here. Tell me you don't exect manic overreactions to everything?
I know what you're saying, but it's the nature of the beast. The Walker subject has been debated on here for the last 2 seasons. I've called for his head at times. There are some positives that you can point to, such as the emergence of Getz, the job he has done with Fields, and BA's improved approach at the plate. I understand that he won't be able to change much with guys like Thome, AJ, and Konerko, but I think a different philosophy would go a long way to helping the offense as a whole.

Right now things are bad primarily to what domeshot said, there are too many players batting out of position. Guys have been hurt early and Ozzie has had to juggle the lineup. KW failed, again, to get a top of the order hitter. And I don't want to hear that there were no options or that leadoff hitters are hard to come by. This has been an issue for the last 2 years and he has tried to plugin guys that he thinks can handle that spot and it simply has not worked. Getz is doing a good job, better than I think any of us expected, but again, he is not a permanent solution. Maybe he can be, but I think he'll end up being better in the 2 hole.

Bottom line is, we're all frustrated. This team is not playing up to their potential right now and the offense looks abysmal. Walker's name is always going to be brought up when the offense looks this bad. I hope that some of these guys can get healthy and that Ozzie can put the same lineup out there consistently and that will help the offense turn things around.

voodoochile
05-05-2009, 11:30 AM
We have the 2nd worst offense in the American League, and the Sox offense has been more or less underwhelming every year since 2006. People have been calling for Greg Walker's head for over a year now. So no, this isn't a kneejerk reaction that you're trying to pretend it is.

No, they stopped calling for his head last summer when the offense heated up after Ozzie called the players on the carpet for failing to produce in early June.

Same **** different year.

Yep.

kittle42
05-05-2009, 11:30 AM
Show me one example of how Ozzie has improved in any of the areas in which he was deficient as a manager when he was hired. Never mind, I'll show you how he hasn't:

Robotic bullpen management: Check

Over-loyalty to mediocre hackers and mediocre coaches: Check

Failure to understand OF defense: Check (most recently evident in playing Pods in RF instead of Quentin)

Diarrhea of the mouth: Check

Failure to emphasize fundamentals: Check

IMHO, Ozzie needs to fix at least some of these deficiencies if he wants to avoid being seen as a "Foul Mouth Jerry Manuel."

I'll say it again, a different way: In my opinion, winning the World Series in 2005, in just his second year of managing, has led Ozzie to believe that he does not need to improve. "Why do I need to improve if I'm good enough to win it all in just my second year?"

Many of us work in jobs where we are expected to improve every year. I don't see Ozzie trying to rectify any of those deficiencies, and it pisses me off because it's leading to unnecessary losses.

I don't really think Ozzie's ever been that good of an in-game manager. Hey, he had robotic bullpen operation in 2005, too - easy to do when your set-up men have ERAs under 2.00.

kittle42
05-05-2009, 11:33 AM
It has nothing to do with me being the "worlds #1 Sox fan" - I'm not. But we got beat 3-0 by Grienke with all the injuries we have now. I don't see how this is so catastrophic.

Because we were really just as medicore before the injuries, with the same pitching issues?

roylestillman
05-05-2009, 11:34 AM
IMO, we need a thread merge of this and the postgame from yesterday. Same issues being discussed.

very entertaining :bliss:

You could merge it with posts from most of last year. I guess that's the point.

Yes it is entertaning, but I did learn a great new word in an early post "errorgance." Fits a number of bosses I used to have.

voodoochile
05-05-2009, 11:36 AM
Last year we dealt our top pitching prospect (widely considered a top 50 in baseball prospect) our 2nd best pitching prospect (widely considered a top 60 prospect) and one of our top 10 OF specs in Sweeney for Nick Swisher. Nick Swisher was not a CF, and not a Lead off man. We needed (a) a CF and (b) A leadoff man, so we traded for him and told him that is what you are now.

Now you can try to say no one else was available, but Swisher was not available either. Kenny Williams got incredibly ripped off in the deal because that is the guy he wanted. He knows he overpaid, but he got his guy. If that is not choosing to do it his way vs the way that worked in 2005, I don't know what is.

Gio was "widely regarded" as a top 60 prospect? I assume you mean in the Sox system. That's just a laughable claim. He'd been traded twice already.

Oh and last time I checked he's pitching mopup for the A's with one appearance and a 5+ ERA so far this season.

DLS blew out his arm.

The CF position prior to BOTH players getting injured was actually producing well in hte 9 hole and the leadoff slot has been manned by a little dynamo named Getz who is absolute having a great year to date.

Got anymore crappy strawmen you want me to knock over or do you want to continue ranting about past trades which have absolutely NOTHING to do with the makeup of today's team other than it would be nice to have Sweeney to take over in CF, but Sweeney for Swisher is a no-brainer trade when it happened.

thedudeabides
05-05-2009, 11:38 AM
I don't really think Ozzie's ever been that good of an in-game manager. Hey, he had robotic bullpen operation in 2005, too - easy to do when your set-up men have ERAs under 2.00.

Bullpen management is a sore subject for every fanbase. Every time a reliever comes in and gives up runs the manager made the wrong decision.

Ozzie mirrors the bullpen management of Bobby Cox and Tony LaRussa. He has said as much in the past. Watch Cardinals and Braves games and you'll see it. Not bad guys to pattern your management style after.

voodoochile
05-05-2009, 11:41 AM
I understand what your saying. It's just that it's very predictable that the same few posters are always wanting to fire Walker/Guillen whenever something is going wrong. This offense is really bad right now, but take a look at the lineups we are trotting out there. Three outfielders, our starting third baseman, starting second baseman, and DH have all missed time. And it's 25 games into the season and we are 1 game below .500.

Nevermind the large amount of success the coaching staff has brought, when the teams slumping fire them all.

This offense is really difficult to watch right now, but in no way do I expect it to keep up like this all year.

:clap: :clap: :clap: <---picture them standing

You've absolutely been crushing this thread with your rational posts. Thanks. Nice to see not everyone has lost their mind...

jabrch
05-05-2009, 11:45 AM
Because we were really just as medicore before the injuries, with the same pitching issues?

So you think we are the same now as before the injuries? I don't see how that's remotely possible given who we lost and who we are replacing them with.

Having to see Pods, Lilli, Betemit, etc play more over Dye, Fields, Thome, BA, etc. isn't impacting this club? Really?

I can't see how any of this is Walker's fault. Don't like the type of VETERAN hitters we have? I'd blame KW, not Walker. Feel free to blame whomever you like Kittle - but I can't see how Walker is the problem here when veteran players are struggling at the dish.

I blame him no more for Thome and Alexei's struggles than I credit him for Paulie and Jermaine hitting the ball well. I credit him no more for Getz than I blame him for Lillibridge.

The biggest problem with this team (that is 1 game under .500 and 1.5 games out of first place) is not the hitting coach. It isn't the second, third or 20th biggest problem.

TomBradley72
05-05-2009, 11:46 AM
I said it in the offseason and got roasted, so Ive got my firesuit on for this one.

This is on Kenny, not Walker. Walker is dealing with having to plug Kenny's magic diamond in the rough of the offseason, Lillibridge, and is inability to do anything good offensively but run, into the lineup. He has 2 guys who weren't good enough to play on a poor Colorado Rockies team in his lineup. He has guys hitting way out of position because there is no other choice. Which means on a guy like Fields, he either has to teach him to go against what he does best as a hitter in order to hit properly for the 2 hole OR Keep hitting like a 5 or 6 hitter and not do the little things a 2 hitter does.

He has a Rookie hitting leadoff, and flourishing, but again out of position.

He has Alexei Ramirez who can't deal with cold weather and doesn't hit much until the warmer weather comes in.

He has the usual suspects of all or nothing sluggers, half of whom are banged up.

You want to point a finger, point it at Kenny Williams arrogance. This is the 2nd year in a row he has just decided to prove you don't need guys in proper roles to make the playoffs. Is it really a shock we had guys like Swisher and Cabrera have such big down years when they are hitting out of position constantly butting heads with management? Even AJ came out and said he really doesn't enjoy being the 2 hitter.

Kenny literally has a lineup where at any given day you either have 2-4 square pegs jammed into round holes or you have really crappy circles going into round holes. Walker, if fired, would be a scape goat.

Overall I agree with your assessment. The term "Walkerball" is laughable to me...it's "Kennyball" if it's anything. We've been without a lead off hitter for 4 years, we've had a line up of "statues" in the middle of the order, we've acquired players who can't bunt/steal/move runners over.

Kenny has been in charge of this organization for 9 years, twice that for our minor league system, it's on him of the way this roster is constructed. On top of that we lead the American League in errors...so our defense sucks too. Should we call that "Cora-ball"?

kittle42
05-05-2009, 11:50 AM
So you think we are the same now as before the injuries? I don't see how that's remotely possible given who we lost and who we are replacing them with.

Having to see Pods, Lilli, Betemit, etc play more over Dye, Fields, Thome, BA, etc. isn't impacting this club? Really?

I can't see how any of this is Walker's fault. Don't like the type of VETERAN hitters we have? I'd blame KW, not Walker. Feel free to blame whomever you like Kittle - but I can't see how Walker is the problem here when veteran players are struggling at the dish.

I blame him no more for Thome and Alexei's struggles than I credit him for Paulie and Jermaine hitting the ball well. I credit him no more for Getz than I blame him for Lillibridge.

The biggest problem with this team (that is 1 game under .500 and 1.5 games out of first place) is not the hitting coach. It isn't the second, third or 20th biggest problem.

To be honest, jab, my real problem is with Williams, but that's sacrilege around here.

jabrch
05-05-2009, 11:59 AM
I know what you're saying, but it's the nature of the beast. The Walker subject has been debated on here for the last 2 seasons. I've called for his head at times. There are some positives that you can point to, such as the emergence of Getz, the job he has done with Fields, and BA's improved approach at the plate. I understand that he won't be able to change much with guys like Thome, AJ, and Konerko, but I think a different philosophy would go a long way to helping the offense as a whole.

Right now things are bad primarily to what domeshot said, there are too many players batting out of position. Guys have been hurt early and Ozzie has had to juggle the lineup. KW failed, again, to get a top of the order hitter. And I don't want to hear that there were no options or that leadoff hitters are hard to come by. This has been an issue for the last 2 years and he has tried to plugin guys that he thinks can handle that spot and it simply has not worked. Getz is doing a good job, better than I think any of us expected, but again, he is not a permanent solution. Maybe he can be, but I think he'll end up being better in the 2 hole.

Bottom line is, we're all frustrated. This team is not playing up to their potential right now and the offense looks abysmal. Walker's name is always going to be brought up when the offense looks this bad. I hope that some of these guys can get healthy and that Ozzie can put the same lineup out there consistently and that will help the offense turn things around.


I hear you - but I can't see how this is Walker's fault. And I am not sure "a different philosophy" will change veteran hitters for the better. And if you look at our veteran hitters, JD and PK are hitting well. It's JT and Alexei who are struggling. AJ is putting up pretty typical AJ #s. I don't see what firing Greg Walker gets us. I don't see what bitching about him gets us either.

You are right - the discussion has been going on forever. But the issue right now with the team is less that JT is struggling (he has won us a few games despite struggling) and less that Alexei isn't hitting well (although he has hit better the last week or so) and more about the fact that lately we have been forced to give lots of ABs to Pods, Lillibridge, Owens, etc. Didn't JT start off REALLY slow in April and May last year also?

Yesterday, in partiuclar, I'm not going to blame the offense for looking bad against Greinke. And I am CERTAINLY not going to blame Walker for it. Greinke has given up 2 ER in 45 innings.

I'm just saying that I don't see why the hate for Walker. Blame the particular player who you are upset about their performance. Don't blame a hitting coach for one or two hitters failings.

jabrch
05-05-2009, 12:05 PM
To be honest, jab, my real problem is with Williams, but that's sacrilege around here.


I feel like KW has more control than Walk. I can see blaming KW. What's your beef with him? Mine was his failure to get a CF - but BA did a great job and looked like he was the answer before his injury. I hope he comes back soon and healthy. If he comes back healthy, and performing anywhere close to where he was, and Thome becomes Thome when the weather warms up, and Dye isn't shelved, and Getz is ok, etc. etc. etc. I am not sure what else KW can do with this roster right now? Back of the rotation? I guess - but is there money to do that?

I do agree with you - my bigger beef is with Kenny than with Walk. I'd also point a finger at Guillen playing Pods in RF, ever. But that's a different story.

The injuries right now are killer. I hope we get past some of this quickly.

thedudeabides
05-05-2009, 12:17 PM
I feel like KW has more control than Walk. I can see blaming KW. What's your beef with him? Mine was his failure to get a CF - but BA did a great job and looked like he was the answer before his injury. I hope he comes back soon and healthy. If he comes back healthy, and performing anywhere close to where he was, and Thome becomes Thome when the weather warms up, and Dye isn't shelved, and Getz is ok, etc. etc. etc. I am not sure what else KW can do with this roster right now? Back of the rotation? I guess - but is there money to do that?

I do agree with you - my bigger beef is with Kenny than with Walk. I'd also point a finger at Guillen playing Pods in RF, ever. But that's a different story.

The injuries right now are killer. I hope we get past some of this quickly.

I've still been waiting for someone to ask Ozzie about this. I can't believe one of the beat writers hasn't.

I'd have to think they don't want to mess with Carlos' development in left. He has looked a lot better out there this year. But, it's painful to see Pods play the outfield. I think he's the worst we have marched out there through all of the outfield replacements. Well, players that are suppose to be outfielders anyway.

jabrch
05-05-2009, 12:25 PM
I've still been waiting for someone to ask Ozzie about this. I can't believe one of the beat writers hasn't.

I'd have to think they don't want to mess with Carlos' development in left. He has looked a lot better out there this year. But, it's painful to see Pods play the outfield. I think he's the worst we have marched out there through all of the outfield replacements. Well, players that are suppose to be outfielders anyway.

It is mindboggling to me. I'm sure there is a good explanation - maybe TCQ is having a shoulder/elbow problem we don't know about? I can't see any reason to ever play Pods in RF. I'm curious.

Jurr
05-05-2009, 12:25 PM
I feel like KW has more control than Walk. I can see blaming KW. What's your beef with him? Mine was his failure to get a CF - but BA did a great job and looked like he was the answer before his injury. I hope he comes back soon and healthy. If he comes back healthy, and performing anywhere close to where he was, and Thome becomes Thome when the weather warms up, and Dye isn't shelved, and Getz is ok, etc. etc. etc. I am not sure what else KW can do with this roster right now? Back of the rotation? I guess - but is there money to do that?

I do agree with you - my bigger beef is with Kenny than with Walk. I'd also point a finger at Guillen playing Pods in RF, ever. But that's a different story.

The injuries right now are killer. I hope we get past some of this quickly.
I absolutely agree with the Kenny indictment. When you are trying to help change the dynamic of an offense with a return to fundamentals and versatility, you CANNOT hope to accomplish this by sprinkling in rookies with your slow veterans and hope to get consistent production out of them.

jabrch
05-05-2009, 12:38 PM
I absolutely agree with the Kenny indictment. When you are trying to help change the dynamic of an offense with a return to fundamentals and versatility, you CANNOT hope to accomplish this by sprinkling in rookies with your slow veterans and hope to get consistent production out of them.


So which "slow veterans" do you move? That's my question?

PK has been fantastic this year. JT started slow last year too - but he is your big LH power bat in the middle of the order. JD is hitting well. Are you proposing those guys are the problem that KW should have fixed?

My problem with what Kenny did this offseason is CF - and I was dead wrong on that - as it appears BA could be the everyday CF and be effective at the plate as well as with the glove.

I'm not sure what KW could do with the back end of the rotation given where we were financially.

I didn't get McDougal either - although he had a nice spring. I'm glad he reacted to that one quickly.

oeo
05-05-2009, 12:45 PM
I absolutely agree with the Kenny indictment. When you are trying to help change the dynamic of an offense with a return to fundamentals and versatility, you CANNOT hope to accomplish this by sprinkling in rookies with your slow veterans and hope to get consistent production out of them.

It's not the "rookies" that are the problem. :scratch:

FWIW, I think the offense, when healthy, is just fine as is. We saw on a few occasions what they're capable of when they're all in there, and it's not the same waiting for the homerun bull...I'm really getting sick of hearing that.

Craig Grebeck
05-05-2009, 12:48 PM
It isn't about rookies, but rather about players who aren't talented. Is it a surprise that Fields can't make contact? Is it a surprise that Nix and/or Lillibridge both suck with the bat?

Conversely, we shouldn't be surprised Getz is succeeding. We need more guys like him, and to a lesser extent Fields. Anderson, on the other hand, is going to fall back to earth pretty hard, pretty soon.

Craig Grebeck
05-05-2009, 12:51 PM
FWIW, I think the offense, when healthy, is just fine as is. We saw on a few occasions what they're capable of when they're all in there, and it's not the same waiting for the homerun bull...I'm really getting sick of hearing that.
You will always hear that, so long as this fallacy of "Ozzieball" is still pumped from the Score airwaves. People believe that a team that hits less home runs and has more scrappy "pests" on the basepaths will flourish. People long for the NL style for whatever reason (a style that doesn't work well in the AL, as teams should never, ever bunt prior to a legitimate one run situation), and it gets tired.

Do you know why Kenny hasn't acquired players who don't bunt or hit to the right side? These players, generally speaking, aren't very good, and are on the bench. Sure, Tadahito was fantastic in 05-06, but he was valuable because he could hit line drives. Our fans should pine for hitters, not glorified track and field athletes.

PhillipsBubba
05-05-2009, 01:06 PM
It's the same old story...if our heroes don't play long ball, they don't win very often.

The "braintrust" always talks about adding speed and manufacturing runs but as long as the middle of the lineup is clogged with free swinging plodders...what you see is what you get.:(:

What is Walker going to do with this line up?

Hopefully the younger guys won't tune him out.

khan
05-05-2009, 01:09 PM
You will always hear that, so long as this fallacy of "Ozzieball" is still pumped from the Score airwaves.
I understand what you're saying here. But the overwhelming majority of this is said by mouthbreathing morons who call in, not by The Ranger. Certainly not by Boers and Bernstein. Perhaps by that mope Mike Murphy. But I haven't heard The Legend of Ozzieball from any Score host with a 3-digit IQ in awhile.

Do you know why Kenny hasn't acquired players who don't bunt or hit to the right side? These players, generally speaking, aren't very good, and are on the bench. Sure, Tadahito was fantastic in 05-06, but he was valuable because he could hit line drives. Our fans should pine for hitters, not glorified track and field athletes.
Oh, I agree with all of this. I also have thought that Walker should've been fired years ago. [Though it would be stupid to do so NOW, in the middle of the season.] I also acknowledge that the offensive talent is questionable in this roster, both on the bench and in the starting 9.

thedudeabides
05-05-2009, 01:11 PM
It isn't about rookies, but rather about players who aren't talented. Is it a surprise that Fields can't make contact? Is it a surprise that Nix and/or Lillibridge both suck with the bat?

Conversely, we shouldn't be surprised Getz is succeeding. We need more guys like him, and to a lesser extent Fields. Anderson, on the other hand, is going to fall back to earth pretty hard, pretty soon.

If Anderson keeps the same approach he had, there is no reason he can't continue the success he was having. His approach changed drastically from what we were seing in the past.

oeo
05-05-2009, 01:13 PM
If Anderson keeps the same approach he had, there is no reason he can't continue the success he was having. His approach changed drastically from what we were seing in the past.

What is it now?

Craig Grebeck
05-05-2009, 01:16 PM
If Anderson keeps the same approach he had, there is no reason he can't continue the success he was having. His approach changed drastically from what we were seing in the past.
I believe it is more difficult to consistently hit just singles than it is to hit XBH and singles -- though that's worded poorly and probably doesn't make sense. Essentially, I think, unless you've got Ichiro skill or Juan Pierre speed, a hitter will run into more problems if his game is built around singles.

Admittedly, Anderson could experience more success in the future, and he could build towards XBH as he hits singles. But, I'd like to see him square up and hit the ball harder before I believe he's making progress.

(All of this is a fog. Blame the History paper I'm writing.)

thedudeabides
05-05-2009, 01:17 PM
What is it now?

I don't understand the question. Craig Grebeck said Anderson is going to come back and fall back to earth hard. I was just responding that I don't think that has to be the case if he continues his improved approach, at the plate.

oeo
05-05-2009, 01:20 PM
I don't understand the question. Craig Grebeck said Anderson is going to come back and fall back to earth hard. I was just responding that I don't think that has to be the case if he continues his improved approach, at the plate.

Sorry, what's this new approach? I've missed it.

thedudeabides
05-05-2009, 01:21 PM
I believe it is more difficult to consistently hit just singles than it is to hit XBH and singles -- though that's worded poorly and probably doesn't make sense. Essentially, I think, unless you've got Ichiro skill or Juan Pierre speed, a hitter will run into more problems if his game is built around singles.

Admittedly, Anderson could experience more success in the future, and he could build towards XBH as he hits singles. But, I'd like to see him square up and hit the ball harder before I believe he's making progress.

(All of this is a fog. Blame the History paper I'm writing.)

I completely understand what your saying and for the most part agree.

Anderson and Fields approach has been different and the powers numbers are reflecting that. In these type of situations, once you get comfortable with the approach, the power can come back. It looks as if the coaching staff is telling them not to worry about power right now. They both naturally have a lot of pop in their bats, so I expect it to come back.

thedudeabides
05-05-2009, 01:24 PM
Sorry, what's this new approach? I've missed it.

You haven't noticed a difference at all? He seems to be seeing a lot more pitches and improving his K/BB ratio. There seems to be more focus on putting the ball in play and getting on base. He's even cutting down on his long swing.

Noneck
05-05-2009, 01:25 PM
This is team loaded with either marginal MLB talents, over priced aging vets (that are worth nothing on the market), a very weak farm system and a few very cheap good young players which at this point are not expendable.

We know that retooling through FA's will never happen here and have to hope the minor league system turns itself around.

Don't expect finding that soup can stuffed with money in the garbage dump often. It has already been found a couple times lately and that has at least made this team not the laughing stock.

All one can do now is cross your fingers and wait it out.

LoveYourSuit
05-05-2009, 01:41 PM
This is team loaded with either marginal MLB talents, over priced aging vets (that are worth nothing on the market), a very weak farm system and a few very cheap good young players which at this point are not expendable.

We know that retooling through FA's will never happen here and have to hope the minor league system turns itself around.

Don't expect finding that soup can stuffed with money in the garbage dump often. It has already been found a couple times lately and that has at least made this team not the laughing stock.

All one can do now is cross your fingers and wait it out.


How quickly you forgot 2005 and that Coop, Ozzie, and Keny all played a role in finding a cure for cancer.

Brian26
05-05-2009, 01:43 PM
Sure, Tadahito was fantastic in 05-06, but he was valuable because he could hit line drives. Our fans should pine for hitters, not glorified track and field athletes.

If there's one bat that I miss from the 05 team, it is Tadahito's. He was just the perfect guy in the perfect place on that team. Could move guys over, bunt, hit the opposite way, clutch hits, big homers, gappers...

asindc
05-05-2009, 02:04 PM
If there's one bat that I miss from the 05 team, it is Tadahito's. He was just the perfect guy in the perfect place on that team. Could move guys over, bunt, hit the opposite way, clutch hits, big homers, gappers...

Agreed.

russ99
05-05-2009, 02:05 PM
I don't understand the question. Craig Grebeck said Anderson is going to come back and fall back to earth hard. I was just responding that I don't think that has to be the case if he continues his improved approach, at the plate.

Some of us believe that Anderson will stay in the middle ground, not "breaking out" as some think and not "falling to earth" as others do.

Some days he'll get a hit or two and sometimes he'll also go 0-fer like against the Mariners. He may be more mature, but talent's talent, and as a defensive guy batting 9th, he's OK, but to expect him to suddenly blossom into a good hitter is probably asking too much.

IMO, he's a 4th outfielder as well as Pods (can't wait for the inevitable ****storm when BA comes back :rolleyes:). We still need a 3rd OF.

oeo
05-05-2009, 02:07 PM
You haven't noticed a difference at all? He seems to be seeing a lot more pitches and improving his K/BB ratio. There seems to be more focus on putting the ball in play and getting on base. He's even cutting down on his long swing.

Yes, his K/BB ratio has improved, but I think that's just the small sample size talking. I still think, in the end, we're going to see the same old Anderson. He's still completely lost on breaking stuff. As long as they show they can get that in the zone, Anderson is toast.

thedudeabides
05-05-2009, 02:12 PM
Yes, his K/BB ratio has improved, but I think that's just the small sample size talking. I still think, in the end, we're going to see the same old Anderson. He's still completely lost on breaking stuff. As long as they show they can get that in the zone, Anderson is toast.

It is a small sample size, and I don't expect him to get on base at the rate he has. You say he's lost on the breaking pitches, but he has been laying off most of it out of the zone. That's a good formula for success. I'm not sure it will last, but it's been easier watching his at bats. In past years when he fell behind in the count, he had no chance.

getonbckthr
05-05-2009, 02:21 PM
I'm curious which hitters are we blaming Walker for?

North Sox Sider
05-05-2009, 02:26 PM
Maybe someone can help me on this one but when has Walker helped a bad hitter into a good one or a good one into a great one. I really havent seen any type of good progression from any player on this team in the past few years. Dont use BA because, even though he has had his moments, I am still not convinced he is a good player at the plate.

Now I have been calling for Walkers head since 2007. I would like to see a fresh face in the dugout that maybe can give a couple of new ideas to some of these hitters. I am sure Walker works hard but I dont see any progression with these hitters like you see with what Coop has done to some of these pitchers that KW has brought in from the scrap heep.
So the question is, how long does the managment wait until you make a change with this offense, when we are 5 games back....10 games back??

kittle42
05-05-2009, 02:33 PM
IMO, he's a 4th outfielder as well as Pods (can't wait for the inevitable ****storm when BA comes back :rolleyes:). We still need a 3rd OF.

No kidding.

Anyone clamoring for Podsednik over Anderson is just foolish.

kittle42
05-05-2009, 02:33 PM
I'm curious which hitters are we blaming Walker for?

The ones who don't get hits, obviously! :D:

DumpJerry
05-05-2009, 02:38 PM
Ok, I have not read the entire thread (just did the first three pages) and I have a question:

Has Ozzie become the Brian Anderson of May?

Last month it was "kill BA" "BA for HOF"

This month it's "kill Ozzie" "Ozzie for God"

:rolleyes:

Who will it be next month? Corky Miller?

getonbckthr
05-05-2009, 02:39 PM
The ones who don't get hits, obviously! :D:
Haha. Just to me are we to blame Walker for Thome hitting .215 or whatever he's at? Is it Walker's fault that we have injuries and are forced to play bench players. There's a reason they are bench players. As far as Fields I think his problem is being in the 2 hole, how is that Walkers fault?

guillen4life13
05-05-2009, 02:41 PM
This thread is ridiculous on so many levels. VC and dude, I'm with you guys.

areilly
05-05-2009, 02:50 PM
Maybe someone can help me on this one but when has Walker helped a bad hitter into a good one or a good one into a great one.

I was actually thinking about this the other day. Cooper has a lengthy list of successful reclamation projects, but I can't think of any guys who thrived through their work with Walker in ways they didn't already show elsewhere first.

JB98
05-05-2009, 02:53 PM
So which "slow veterans" do you move? That's my question?

PK has been fantastic this year. JT started slow last year too - but he is your big LH power bat in the middle of the order. JD is hitting well. Are you proposing those guys are the problem that KW should have fixed?

My problem with what Kenny did this offseason is CF - and I was dead wrong on that - as it appears BA could be the everyday CF and be effective at the plate as well as with the glove.

I'm not sure what KW could do with the back end of the rotation given where we were financially.

I didn't get McDougal either - although he had a nice spring. I'm glad he reacted to that one quickly.

They can't trade any of the slow veterans -- because they don't have anyone to replace them. The Sox minor-league system hasn't produced an impact middle-of-the-order hitter in awhile. Could they have traded JD or Paulie? Probably, but then they'd be stuck with a major rebuilding project during a time where the fans are in no mood to rebuild. So, they are trying to restock the minor leagues and build for the future, while at the same time competing at the major-league level with these old warhorses. That's a tricky thing to pull off. The Sox will compete this year, but it's damn hard to win championships that way.

Some other general comments (not directed specifically to you, jab):

I'm not a fan of Greg Walker. I've called for his head in the past, but if the Sox fire him today, what difference would that make? They'd probably replace him with Charlotte's hitting coach, Gary Ward. Most Sox fans will recall that Ward was the big-league hitting coach before, and he was fired from that role.

I don't know what people expected. This is largely the same offense we had last year. I have a bigger beef with KW than I do with Walker, and that beef is the minor-league system hasn't produced enough talent to replenish the lineup with the speed and versatility we need, nor has it produced enough pitching to fill out the back of the rotation or the front end of the bullpen.

There is no choice but to rely on these veteran players, and they are what they are. If the club finishes mired in mediocrity this year, that's because this is a mediocre roster. It isn't because Ozzie sucks, or Walker sucks. I thought the coaching staff did a helluva job guiding a mediocre roster to the postseason last year. Maybe they can do it again, but I'm not going to be shocked if they can't.

kaufsox
05-05-2009, 03:04 PM
This thread has been a great read. I can't wait to read the sequel, "reactions to a five game skid."

kittle42
05-05-2009, 03:11 PM
This thread has been a great read. I can't wait to read the sequel, "reactions to a five game skid."

Much "trading" and "DFAing" will be suggested.

oeo
05-05-2009, 03:16 PM
It is a small sample size, and I don't expect him to get on base at the rate he has. You say he's lost on the breaking pitches, but he has been laying off most of it out of the zone. That's a good formula for success. I'm not sure it will last, but it's been easier watching his at bats. In past years when he fell behind in the count, he had no chance.

I think the fact that he's laid off them is good, but what happens when the scouting report changes? In the past, you threw a breaking ball, and it seemed like Brian would bite. It's good that he isn't now, but what happens when they start to throw them in the zone? Will he be able to hit it? Will he just lay off and wait around for the fastball? Will he still be able to lay off them out of the zone knowing that all the breaking stuff isn't going to be a ball?

To me, he has to prove that he can hit the breaking ball before I'll ever anoint him as more than a 4th outfielder. Of course on this particular team, he's the third outfielder, but that's not saying much.

The breaking ball is going to plague him. I'm glad he's finally adjusted to what they're doing to him, but I'm interested to see how he adjusts after they change their plan of attack against him.

SoxGirl4Life
05-05-2009, 03:21 PM
This thread has been a great read. I can't wait to read the sequel, "reactions to a five game skid."


Or the one after the 4 game set we have coming up in Toronto. Good times.

jabrch
05-05-2009, 03:28 PM
Anyone clamoring for Podsednik over Anderson is just foolish.

Are you jousting at windmills here?

Isn't this like the BA-Haters and the folks wanting to reunite 2005? None of this exists (on any significant scale). I have yet to see anyone say Pods should be playing CF over BA.

oeo
05-05-2009, 03:29 PM
I don't know what people expected. This is largely the same offense we had last year. I have a bigger beef with KW than I do with Walker, and that beef is the minor-league system hasn't produced enough talent to replenish the lineup with the speed and versatility we need, nor has it produced enough pitching to fill out the back of the rotation or the front end of the bullpen.

I disagree that this lineup is the same as last year and lacks versatility. There's only one thing I wish Kenny would have done: acquired a centerfielder that could hit at the top of the lineup...#1 or #2, doesn't matter because I'm comfortable with Getz in either role. Now CF hasn't been a problem per say, but neither of the options (Wise or Anderson) are top of the order guys. That forces us to put Fields out of position at #2, and I think really kills a lot of what the lineup would be capable of with Fields in the lower third of the lineup.

When healthy, this team can score runs in more ways than last year's team. I said it earlier in the year: I think this is the most versatile offense we've had since 2005, and I'd argue that it's even more versatile.

We need to get healthy, we need some warm weather, and I'd still like Kenny to look into another option in CF. Although, an upgrade in the rotation should come first...that's what is going to kill us, IMHO.

doublem23
05-05-2009, 03:32 PM
The ones who don't get hits, obviously! :D:

Honestly, I don't care if firing Walker is nothing more than symbolic, something's got to be done to shake this team out of its doldrums. I like the general direction the Sox are taking, so I'm not upset with KW (I think if you look at the growth of the Sox's farm system in the past few years, you'll see that the franchise in general is moving in the right direction) and Ozzie is still in the 5-year grace period I'm willing to cut a guy after he wins a championship. But this team has been offensively underperforming since 2007. Someone's head has to roll.

JB98
05-05-2009, 03:34 PM
I disagree that this lineup is the same as last year and lacks versatility. There's only one thing I wish Kenny would have done: acquired a centerfielder that could hit at the top of the lineup...#1 or #2, doesn't matter because I'm comfortable with Getz in either role. Now CF hasn't been a problem per say, but neither of the options (Wise or Anderson) are top of the order guys. That forces us to put Fields out of position at #2, and I think really kills a lot of what the lineup would be capable of with Fields in the lower third of the lineup.

When healthy, this team can score runs in more ways than last year's team. I said it earlier in the year: I think this is the most versatile offense we've had since 2005, and I'd argue that it's even more versatile.

We need to get healthy, we need some warm weather, and I'd still like Kenny to look into another option in CF.

But look at what we have three through seven: Quentin, Thome, Dye, Konerko and Pierzynski. It's the same core. The same exact core of guys with good pop and little or no speed.

What the Sox have done is basically tinker around the edges. We might be getting a slight upgrade with Getz at the top of the order instead of Cabrera, but even that remains to be seen.

You're correct in your assessment that Fields is miscast as a No. 2 hitter. We lack other options because we don't have much versatility. They could put A.J. back in that spot, I suppose, but that isn't necessarily an ideal solution either.

kittle42
05-05-2009, 03:37 PM
Are you jousting at windmills here?

Isn't this like the BA-Haters and the folks wanting to reunite 2005? None of this exists (on any significant scale). I have yet to see anyone say Pods should be playing CF over BA.

Me, neither...I was just agreeing with the poster that any such talk would be ludicrous.

oeo
05-05-2009, 03:42 PM
But look at what we have three through seven: Quentin, Thome, Dye, Konerko and Pierzynski. It's the same core. The same exact core of guys with good pop and little or no speed.

I like what we have at the top and the bottom better, though. If Kenny could find that imaginary centerfielder to hit at the top of the lineup, I'd like it even more.


I like Getz' ability to work the count, good contact, plus speed, and just overall instincts at the top of the lineup. For all the smart player crap we heard about Cabrera, I thought he played incredibly stupid in his time here. He had a pretty good year, but again, a lot dumbassism from Mr. Cabrera.
I like that Fields isn't your typical power hitter, in that he has good speed and can steal some bags...if that combination is at the bottom of the lineup, that's pretty damn good.
I like the fact that when Alexei gets going, we can put him in the middle of the lineup and use his power, or push him to the bottom and use his speed and bat handling. The key thing is getting Alexei going.
I also like the fact that if we get that imaginary centerfielder, AJ's combination of contact and power can be pushed to the lower third, as well.

I mean, we're not the Tampa Bay Rays, but who is? There is not a more versatile lineup than in Tampa Bay.

What the Sox have done is basically tinker around the edges. We might be getting a slight upgrade with Getz at the top of the order instead of Cabrera, but even that remains to be seen.Oh, without a doubt Getz is an upgrade at leadoff. Cabrera does not take pitches, or walk. You need that, and Getz gives us a lot of it.

WhiteSox5187
05-05-2009, 03:55 PM
I like what we have at the top and the bottom better, though. If Kenny could find that imaginary centerfielder to hit at the top of the lineup, I'd like it even more.


I like Getz' ability to work the count, good contact, plus speed, and just overall instincts at the top of the lineup. For all the smart player crap we heard about Cabrera, I thought he played incredibly stupid in his time here. He had a pretty good year, but again, a lot dumbassism from Mr. Cabrera.
I like that Fields isn't your typical power hitter, in that he has good speed and can steal some bags...if that combination is at the bottom of the lineup, that's pretty damn good.
I like the fact that when Alexei gets going, we can put him in the middle of the lineup and use his power, or push him to the bottom and use his speed and bat handling. The key thing is getting Alexei going.
I also like the fact that if we get that imaginary centerfielder, AJ's combination of contact and power can be pushed to the lower third, as well.
I mean, we're not the Tampa Bay Rays, but who is? There is not a more versatile lineup than in Tampa Bay.

Oh, without a doubt Getz is an upgrade at leadoff. Cabrera does not take pitches, or walk. You need that, and Getz gives us a lot of it.

While I agree with you, I want to with hold final judgement until later in the season. The one thing I'd like to see Getz do is steal more, but that's just a very minor critique.

jabrch
05-05-2009, 04:21 PM
I mean, we're not the Tampa Bay Rays, but who is? There is not a more versatile lineup than in Tampa Bay.

What an odd team they are...

They are 5 games under .500 Jason Bartlett is hitting .363/.402/.505. Longoria is slg .720. Pena is slg .684. Zobrist has a .921 ops.


Bad pitching...bad pen...sure

Bad baseball team?

jabrch
05-05-2009, 04:22 PM
Honestly, I don't care if firing Walker is nothing more than symbolic...Someone's head has to roll.

That's where we disagree Dubs. I'm not for changes for the sake of symbolism.

oeo
05-05-2009, 04:23 PM
What an odd team they are...

They are 5 games under .500 Jason Bartlett is hitting .363/.402/.505. Longoria is slg .720. Pena is slg .684. Zobrist has a .921 ops.


Bad pitching...bad pen...sure

Bad baseball team?

I said last year there was no way they repeated their success because the most valuable thing about that club was their bullpen. Reminded me of our 2005 pen, and that type of success does not repeat.

russ99
05-05-2009, 08:12 PM
But look at what we have three through seven: Quentin, Thome, Dye, Konerko and Pierzynski. It's the same core. The same exact core of guys with good pop and little or no speed.

What the Sox have done is basically tinker around the edges. We might be getting a slight upgrade with Getz at the top of the order instead of Cabrera, but even that remains to be seen.

You're correct in your assessment that Fields is miscast as a No. 2 hitter. We lack other options because we don't have much versatility. They could put A.J. back in that spot, I suppose, but that isn't necessarily an ideal solution either.

Yeah, but that core's not exactly movable.

Quentin is a core player now and in the future.
Thome - who'd take his $12M salary for a year or two of declining production?
Dye - trade feelers went out, but the return wasn't good enough and the teams that want him will wait it out until the deadline or when he's a FA.
Konerko - full NTC and with his performance the last 2 years and salary, who'd give up a good player/prospects for him?

I would have liked Kenny to get us another outfielder (not necessarily a CF) and another starter, but his hands were tied by payroll concerns.

As I recall, he purposely didn't ask for a CF prospect in the Vazquez deal, since he instead was able to get more and better prospects.

Considering we have new starters at 4 positions and 2 starters around 40, to have one big question mark (CF) and potentially needing a 5th starter is pretty good. All indications are that Kenny will be greenlighted to add at the deadline, so maybe we need to wait until then....

And I'll make you feel better about your GM: the Astros traded Zobrist to the Rays for 1 and a half years of Aubrey Huff.

Frater Perdurabo
05-05-2009, 09:23 PM
There's not much KW can do about remixing the core. The fact that he acquired Alexei and Quentin last year, while simultaneously also restocking the farm system, merits respect. If only three of the highly-touted prospects (Viciedo, Allen, Beckham, Danks, Flowers, Shelby) pan out as "average" major league position players, the Sox will be in good shape.

For me, the ultimate question is this: What is the job of the hitting coach? The Sox have a slow, plodding, powerful middle of the order who are prone to slumping at the same time, against similar types of pitchers, and against no-name pitchers they've not previously faced. I think it is the hitting coach's job to prepare the hitters to face those kinds of pitchers so that they have more success in the future. The results have been lacking for three years. Sure, they tee off on the Kyle Farnsworths of the world. But they have always done that! Where is the improvement when facing the types of pitchers who have continually baffled them, specifically, no-name minor league callups?

But if working with the hitters to improve performance is not Walker's job, what the heck are the Sox paying Walker to do?

JB98
05-06-2009, 12:26 AM
Yeah, but that core's not exactly movable.

Quentin is a core player now and in the future.
Thome - who'd take his $12M salary for a year or two of declining production?
Dye - trade feelers went out, but the return wasn't good enough and the teams that want him will wait it out until the deadline or when he's a FA.
Konerko - full NTC and with his performance the last 2 years and salary, who'd give up a good player/prospects for him?

I would have liked Kenny to get us another outfielder (not necessarily a CF) and another starter, but his hands were tied by payroll concerns.

As I recall, he purposely didn't ask for a CF prospect in the Vazquez deal, since he instead was able to get more and better prospects.

Considering we have new starters at 4 positions and 2 starters around 40, to have one big question mark (CF) and potentially needing a 5th starter is pretty good. All indications are that Kenny will be greenlighted to add at the deadline, so maybe we need to wait until then....

And I'll make you feel better about your GM: the Astros traded Zobrist to the Rays for 1 and a half years of Aubrey Huff.

Of course not. That's a big part of my argument. People here for some reason are expecting different results from last season when we have the exact same core players.

jabrch
05-06-2009, 12:34 AM
Of course not. That's a big part of my argument. People here for some reason are expecting different results from last season when we have the exact same core players.

I'd be ok with the same regular season results. Get me to the playoffs and you never know what will happen.

JB98
05-06-2009, 12:46 AM
I'd be ok with the same regular season results. Get me to the playoffs and you never know what will happen.

It would be OK with that as well. But the fact is the offense is going to run extremely hot and cold -- and be reliant on the long ball. To expect otherwise is to set yourself up for disappointment.

It's the same core group as last year. We should expect a similar style, regardless of the rhetoric the Sox are giving to the beat reporters.

thedudeabides
05-06-2009, 10:16 AM
There's not much KW can do about remixing the core. The fact that he acquired Alexei and Quentin last year, while simultaneously also restocking the farm system, merits respect. If only three of the highly-touted prospects (Viciedo, Allen, Beckham, Danks, Flowers, Shelby) pan out as "average" major league position players, the Sox will be in good shape.

For me, the ultimate question is this: What is the job of the hitting coach? The Sox have a slow, plodding, powerful middle of the order who are prone to slumping at the same time, against similar types of pitchers, and against no-name pitchers they've not previously faced. I think it is the hitting coach's job to prepare the hitters to face those kinds of pitchers so that they have more success in the future. The results have been lacking for three years. Sure, they tee off on the Kyle Farnsworths of the world. But they have always done that! Where is the improvement when facing the types of pitchers who have continually baffled them, specifically, no-name minor league callups?

But if working with the hitters to improve performance is not Walker's job, what the heck are the Sox paying Walker to do?

I'm not sure what your last comment is referencing, but I think your talking about the no-name callups.

You can definitely put some of this on the hitting coach, but this is a much larger issue with advanced scouting. When a minor league pitcher is called up, especially on short notice, you are relying on the advanced scouting reports. The hitting coach doesn't have a whole lot more to go on than the hitters themselves. There will be some low level information and film, but nothing to the degree they are used to. What you don't know until you face a pitcher is how their breaking stuff bites, whether it's early or late, if they have late pop on a fastball, what their tendencies are when they are up or down in a count.

This is why, contrary to popular belief, a lot of teams struggle with pitchers they haven't seen. It's why pitchers have success switching leagues. Once a book gets out on a pitcher, it's a different story, and then if they don't adjust they are going to struggle. You see a lot of late season callups succeed only to get knocked around at the start of the following season. Jeff Karstens is a perfect example of this. He came up with the Yankees in 2006 and did well in 6 starts. In 2007 he got knocked around. He was traded to the Pirates 2008 and the first time through the league he looked unhittable. This year he is getting rocked. Examples like this are common place. It definitely doesn't happen all the time, as there are plenty of pitchers who come up with a lot of nerves and wet the bed.

If you really think the Sox are the only team who struggle with pitchers the first time they see them, then start checking box scores. It can be quite common. I'm not sure if it happens to the Sox more often than other teams, but I know a fanbase notices trends that can seem exacerbated when that is the only team they follow. Talking to friends who are Cubs and Cardinals fans, they think their team does the same thing.

I know it sounds like I'm defending Walker a lot in this thread, and I don't really think he's anything special as a hitting coach, I just feel like at times posters go after the coaching staff for the wrong reasons.