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View Full Version : *Official* 4-26 Halliday puts Walkerballing Sox on holiday; Jays win 4-3


Frater Perdurabo
04-26-2009, 04:46 PM
Bloviate here...

Wasted a good start by Contreras.

BA with three hits today.

Linebrink sucked.

Hartman
04-26-2009, 04:47 PM
Stop trolling Linebrink out there if he isn't healthy.

And if he is healthy, he just plain old blows.

guillensdisciple
04-26-2009, 04:47 PM
Can't say much, because I saw the last inning, but I assume the Sox went Home Run derby style today.
The Bulls calmed me down, so I can't get mad. Lets get the Mariners tomorrow!

LoveYourSuit
04-26-2009, 04:48 PM
Silver lining.... BA and Jose Contreras.


BA is our best Batting average and OBP% guy right now.


AJ needs to get his head out of his ass with the bat.

LoveYourSuit
04-26-2009, 04:49 PM
Stop trolling Linebrink out there if he isn't healthy.

And if he is healthy, he just plain old blows.


Despite his 0.00 ERA coming, I do agree. He makes me very sweaty when he takes the bump.

Our bullpen looks very thin right now.

SoxGirl4Life
04-26-2009, 04:50 PM
Can't say much, because I saw the last inning, but I assume the Sox went Home Run derby style today.
The Bulls calmed me down, so I can't get mad. Lets get the Mariners tomorrow!

Nope. Neither homerun derby nor "walkerball". Halladay is a pretty good pitcher and we managed to small-ball three runs.

And Jose was pretty good.

Hartman
04-26-2009, 04:50 PM
Silver lining.... BA and Jose Contreras.


BA is our best Batting average and OBP% guy right now.


AJ needs to get his head out of his ass with the bat.

I'm not sure if that's a compliment to BA or an insult to the rest of the team. :D:

Frater Perdurabo
04-26-2009, 04:50 PM
Part of me does not want to mess with a player's success. However, given that BA has the best average and OBP on the team, should Ozzie consider hitting him higher in the order?

kevingrt
04-26-2009, 04:50 PM
We got to Halliday and still lose. That is so frustrating. Nice game by BA though and Jose held himself together which is promising.

Rdy2PlayBall
04-26-2009, 04:50 PM
Hawk has to find other tones of voice that don't sound positive. His angry voice sounded like he was calling Alexei's hit a HR, which made my heart stop when it was just a popout. Agggghh! :(:

This was winnable... but oh well.

guillensdisciple
04-26-2009, 04:50 PM
How long is Getz out for?

Shoeless_Jeff
04-26-2009, 04:50 PM
Ugh... this one was just frustrating. Solid pitching from Jose. Could have walked away with a win off one of the best pitchers in the game and a bad inning from Linebrink... ahhh!!!!!

Take it out on the Mariners next series.

kevingrt
04-26-2009, 04:50 PM
Part of me does not want to mess with a player's success. However, given that BA has the best average and OBP on the team, should Ozzie consider hitting him higher in the order?

I'm going to say if it ain't broke with BA don't fix it. Keep him at the lower part of the order. Helps with some line-up balance as well too.

central44
04-26-2009, 04:51 PM
The Sox weren't supposed to win this one due to the pitching matchup, and they made it interesting. They played well considering they were facing a guy who could easily be considered the top pitcher in the AL. Not too much to be upset about here. Yeah, it sucks to lose at home, but if they can play like they did today every single day, there's no reason to think they can't contend.

Harry Potter
04-26-2009, 04:52 PM
JD didn't help matters either, especially in the 1st and 3rd. Thankfully Paulie bailed him out in the 3rd.

LITTLE NELL
04-26-2009, 04:53 PM
I'm going to say if it ain't broke with BA don't fix it. Keep him at the lower part of the order. Helps with some line-up balance as well too.
Took the words right out of my mouth.

Frater Perdurabo
04-26-2009, 04:53 PM
"Walkerball" is the term used for when the middle of the order is relatively unproductive. Yes, they were kept in check by a great pitcher today. But how does one explain the craptacular performance on Friday? How many times do we have to "tip our caps" before we ask whether the current incumbent is the best choice to fill the "toughest uniformed position in baseball."

kevingrt
04-26-2009, 04:54 PM
Hawk has to find other tones of voice that don't sound positive. His angry voice sounded like he was calling Alexei's hit a HR, which made my heart stop when it was just a popout. Agggghh! :(:

This was winnable... but oh well.

I thought Alexei got that off the sweet spot but I was terribly wrong.

ramblinsoxfan11
04-26-2009, 04:55 PM
Ahhhh!! I thought we had that game, good pitching by both teams today. I'd be much more angry if it was not for the spectacular Bulls game going on at the same time. Oh well, let's get Seattle!!!

Tragg
04-26-2009, 04:57 PM
Really disappointing loss.
Come on Linebrink. Focus

kevingrt
04-26-2009, 04:58 PM
Ahhhh!! I thought we had that game, good pitching by both teams today. I'd be much more angry if it was not for the spectacular Bulls game going on at the same time. Oh well, let's get Seattle!!!

Same. This place would be a wild zoo if the Bull's didn't pull out that win.

chisoxfanatic
04-26-2009, 05:01 PM
We got to Halliday and still lose. That is so frustrating. Nice game by BA though and Jose held himself together which is promising.
It's too bad they couldn't string together another hit or two when they had RISP. It's also too bad Jose had a rough start (even though he seemed to settle down in later innings).

guillensdisciple
04-26-2009, 05:01 PM
Anyone notice how Quentin's average is .246? I am not worried, but I am starting to wonder a little.

Jurr
04-26-2009, 05:01 PM
Nope. Neither homerun derby nor "walkerball". Halladay is a pretty good pitcher and we managed to small-ball three runs.

And Jose was pretty good.

That's what I thought. The approach was good out there, and players weren't overswinging. Paulie has been awfully short and quick. I would've been pissed if the Sox laid down and pop-flied their way to three hits with one dinger. Instead, we saw multiple hits and some runs on the board. If Alexei ate one more biscuit this morning, we are talking about how the Sox hung in there until 10 got the walkoff.

Tragg
04-26-2009, 05:05 PM
Part of me does not want to mess with a player's success. However, given that BA has the best average and OBP on the team, should Ozzie consider hitting him higher in the order?
He's never demonstrated a fagile sensibility. Guillen moved him up 2 spots yesterday and 1 spot today and it didn't freak him out. Honestly, he's responded the last 2 weeks knowing that he'll be yanked after a couple of non-productive games, so I doubt that moving him up will cause any problems.
That said, it's the middle of the order that isn't producing, and I doubt that's where he really belongs. Maybe 7th would be okay.

As for Walker, we've pondered this for years. I think it's howling at the moon at this point.

SoxGirl4Life
04-26-2009, 05:09 PM
Per Gamecast, the Blue Jays only have a 92% chance of winning this game after three outs in the bottom of the ninth.

Noneck
04-26-2009, 05:13 PM
That said, it's the middle of the order that isn't producing, and I doubt that's where he really belongs. Maybe 7th would be okay.

As for Walker, we've pondered this for years. I think it's howling at the moon at this point.

If the problem is the middle of the order no coach, instructor or manager can or will change that, only the guys in the middle of the order can do that. And at this stage of their careers, that's not going to happen.

goon
04-26-2009, 05:15 PM
HallAday.

Beer Can Chicken
04-26-2009, 05:20 PM
Part of me does not want to mess with a player's success. However, given that BA has the best average and OBP on the team, should Ozzie consider hitting him higher in the order?


Ozzie isn't even guaranteeing him his job when Wise gets back.

http://chicago.whitesox.mlb.com/news/article.jsp?ymd=20090426&content_id=4434742&vkey=news_cws&fext=.jsp&c_id=cws

'But White Sox manager Ozzie Guillen delivered some words of encouragement for Wise prior to Sunday's contest. Guillen stated that the starting job will not automatically stay with Brian Anderson when Wise returns, regardless of how Anderson is playing.'

DonnieDarko
04-26-2009, 05:25 PM
Ozzie isn't even guaranteeing him his job when Wise gets back.

http://chicago.whitesox.mlb.com/news/article.jsp?ymd=20090426&content_id=4434742&vkey=news_cws&fext=.jsp&c_id=cws

'But White Sox manager Ozzie Guillen delivered some words of encouragement for Wise prior to Sunday's contest. Guillen stated that the starting job will not automatically stay with Brian Anderson when Wise returns, regardless of how Anderson is playing.'

*facepalm*

BleacherBandit
04-26-2009, 05:31 PM
At least they batted around in the first three innings. I'm impressed with the expediency of Lillibridge and Fields working in tandem during the first inning. I think this year we're seeing a more balenced offense. And at least Contreras didn't pick up another early-season loss.

palehozenychicty
04-26-2009, 05:47 PM
They had chances against a great one today and they slipped up. Well, if Anderson doesn't keep the job and keeps playing well, he should be traded for sanity reasons.

Tragg
04-26-2009, 05:50 PM
Ozzie isn't even guaranteeing him his job when Wise gets back.

http://chicago.whitesox.mlb.com/news/article.jsp?ymd=20090426&content_id=4434742&vkey=news_cws&fext=.jsp&c_id=cws

'But White Sox manager Ozzie Guillen delivered some words of encouragement for Wise prior to Sunday's contest. Guillen stated that the starting job will not automatically stay with Brian Anderson when Wise returns, regardless of how Anderson is playing.'
That comment is just beyond belief.
he doesn't want to be "unfair" to Wise. It's more of this coddling of bad veterans - and it's the not the first time.
Guillen actually thinks that Wise is a quality centerfielder. Scary.

kittle42
04-26-2009, 05:51 PM
Ozzie isn't even guaranteeing him his job when Wise gets back.

http://chicago.whitesox.mlb.com/news/article.jsp?ymd=20090426&content_id=4434742&vkey=news_cws&fext=.jsp&c_id=cws

'But White Sox manager Ozzie Guillen delivered some words of encouragement for Wise prior to Sunday's contest. Guillen stated that the starting job will not automatically stay with Brian Anderson when Wise returns, regardless of how Anderson is playing.'

Yeah, Ozzie, because Wise is such a fine talent. Question: does Brian Anderson need these kinds of things for continued motivation, or is Ozzie Guillen just an idiot?

Brian26
04-26-2009, 05:52 PM
Same. This place would be a wild zoo if the Bull's didn't pull out that win.

Anyone investing any time in rooting for the Bulls after that 25-point slaughter the other night might as well go spit into the wind.

Rohan
04-26-2009, 05:54 PM
This is exactly the kind of crap that just pisses me off. Way to "be in touch" with your players ozzie.

Brian26
04-26-2009, 05:55 PM
Yeah, Ozzie, because Wise is such a fine talent. Question: does Brian Anderson need these kinds of things for continued motivation, or is Ozzie Guillen just an idiot?

Ranger played the postgame clip from Ozzie's press conference. Ozzie said BA has the job "for now", but "there are still a lot of at bats left."

Even if he thinks BA is going to fail, why make such a ridiculous toolish statement. BA's batting close to .350, had three hits today (two off one of the toughest RHP in the AL), and is batting over .420 in the past week.

You'd think a manager could find a way to be a bit more positive in his message, but this is Ozzie we're talking about. FWIW, I thought pinch-running Owens for BA in the 9th was a joke too.

LITTLE NELL
04-26-2009, 05:57 PM
That comment is just beyond belief.
he doesn't want to be "unfair" to Wise. It's more of this coddling of bad veterans - and it's the not the first time.
Guillen actually thinks that Wise is a quality centerfielder. Scary.
He also thought Mackowiack was a quality CFer, it is scary.

SOXfnNlansing
04-26-2009, 05:58 PM
They just lost a series to a slightly better team. Today's effort was pretty good I thought. Both teams wasted chances. The wind was swirling and there were wrappers blowing all over the place. The just lost a one run game. I thought Jose did good after the first inning. We had Halladay on the ropes, but couldn't come through with clutch hits. Oh, well, let's sweep the M's.

Brian26
04-26-2009, 05:59 PM
We had Halladay on the ropes, but couldn't come through with clutch hits. Oh, well, let's sweep the M's.

Except for Konerko's huge two-out two-rbi double off Halladay (whom at Soxfest he ranked as one of the toughest pitchers he's ever had to face).

JorgeFabregas
04-26-2009, 06:31 PM
"It's not fair for the kid to work hard, play good and then he got hurt" Hmm...So was Wise playing well before he got hurt? A sub .500 OPS or something like that? I guess it's not worth complaining about till Wise actually gets back and we see what happens.

HawkDJ
04-26-2009, 06:33 PM
Ozzie will have officially lost his mind if he plays Wise over BA

russ99
04-26-2009, 06:38 PM
Stop trolling Linebrink out there if he isn't healthy.

And if he is healthy, he just plain old blows.

He pitched just fine last night. Ozzie should know better to throw him in on back-to-back days. And he still has a 1.29 ERA after today, don't think that even comes close to "plain old blows".

Where was Thornton??

russ99
04-26-2009, 06:40 PM
Ozzie will have officially lost his mind if he plays Wise over BA

Whatever.

I think it's the old "don't lose a job due to injury" thing that happens all the time in the majors. All BA has to do is keep playing well, then there's no reason for Ozzie to take him out.

Chicken Dinner
04-26-2009, 06:41 PM
Ozzie will have officially lost his mind if he plays Wise over BA

Pods is even heating up. Wise and Jerry need to stay away.

ramblinsoxfan11
04-26-2009, 06:50 PM
Anyone investing any time in rooting for the Bulls after that 25-point slaughter the other night might as well go spit into the wind.

That game was awful, but the other 3 games so far in the series have been pretty exciting. All of them have come down to the buzzer, which is key to me since I usually only watch the last 5 minutes of basketball games

Woofer
04-26-2009, 06:50 PM
Wise had the starting job for what, 7 games? If BA puts up good numbers till Wise comes back, he better keep the job.

SoxandtheCityTee
04-26-2009, 06:55 PM
He also thought Mackowiack was a quality CFer, it is scary.

Ugh, what bad memories that summons up. Whatever Ozzie is up to with this, I gave up a while back trying to read the tea leaves. I just hope for the best.

Meanwhile: "Dadgummit." A good outing for Jose, though.

It's Dankerific
04-26-2009, 07:04 PM
Ozzie isn't even guaranteeing him his job when Wise gets back.

http://chicago.whitesox.mlb.com/news/article.jsp?ymd=20090426&content_id=4434742&vkey=news_cws&fext=.jsp&c_id=cws

'But White Sox manager Ozzie Guillen delivered some words of encouragement for Wise prior to Sunday's contest. Guillen stated that the starting job will not automatically stay with Brian Anderson when Wise returns, regardless of how Anderson is playing.'

Oh my. I threw up a little in my mouth after reading that. What the **** is wrong with Ozzie?

They had chances against a great one today and they slipped up. Well, if Anderson doesn't keep the job and keeps playing well, he should be traded for sanity reasons.

Yeah, I'm sure we'll get a bag of balls for him. Why don't they waive Anderson and see if he passes through. Idiots.

That comment is just beyond belief.
he doesn't want to be "unfair" to Wise. It's more of this coddling of bad veterans - and it's the not the first time.
Guillen actually thinks that Wise is a quality centerfielder. Scary.

But somehow not "unfair" to BA. Great.

Yeah, Ozzie, because Wise is such a fine talent. Question: does Brian Anderson need these kinds of things for continued motivation, or is Ozzie Guillen just an idiot?

My answer? Idiot.

This is exactly the kind of crap that just pisses me off. Way to "be in touch" with your players ozzie.

Ranger played the postgame clip from Ozzie's press conference. Ozzie said BA has the job "for now", but "there are still a lot of at bats left."

Even if he thinks BA is going to fail, why make such a ridiculous toolish statement. BA's batting close to .350, had three hits today (two off one of the toughest RHP in the AL), and is batting over .420 in the past week.

You'd think a manager could find a way to be a bit more positive in his message, but this is Ozzie we're talking about. FWIW, I thought pinch-running Owens for BA in the 9th was a joke too.

"It's not fair for the kid to work hard, play good and then he got hurt" Hmm...So was Wise playing well before he got hurt? A sub .500 OPS or something like that? I guess it's not worth complaining about till Wise actually gets back and we see what happens.

If Wise was "playing good" what exactly are the numbers that Brian are putting up?

Whatever.

I think it's the old "don't lose a job due to injury" thing that happens all the time in the majors. All BA has to do is keep playing well, then there's no reason for Ozzie to take him out.

more like the old "don't lose a job you never earned or deserved" thing

Wise had the starting job for what, 7 games? If BA puts up good numbers till Wise comes back, he better keep the job.

But what an awesome 7 games it was.

I hope I wont have to read anyone posting Brian is getting a fair shake after reading this newest line of crap from Ozzie.

He's got the best average, best OBP of the regulars and yet he's still fighting for a job against Wise.

soulfly
04-26-2009, 07:24 PM
It's comments like that along with many other things Ozzie does that make him the idiot he can be most of the time.

If brian keeps playing anywhere near the level he is at now, in no way should Wise get his spot back. He should have never had it in the first place. Getz has worked out great at the top of the order. What does Wise bring the table other than terrible defense and a bad bat? Nothing. If BA is hitting 290 or higher when wise is back and loses his starting job, ozzie needs to lose his. It's such a slap in the face to BA and the fans.

guillensdisciple
04-26-2009, 07:42 PM
It's comments like that along with many other things Ozzie does that make him the idiot he can be most of the time.

If brian keeps playing anywhere near the level he is at now, in no way should Wise get his spot back. He should have never had it in the first place. Getz has worked out great at the top of the order. What does Wise bring the table other than terrible defense and a bad bat? Nothing. If BA is hitting 290 or higher when wise is back and loses his starting job, ozzie needs to lose his. It's such a slap in the face to BA and the fans.

That isn't going to happen, damn, why must we take everything at face value? He just doesn't want Brian to get comfortable, and wants him to continue playing like he deserves the spot. It's not that big of a deal- there is no manager that would take out a player that is doing really well.

Frater Perdurabo
04-26-2009, 08:15 PM
If BA is still hitting .280+ when Wise returns, and if at that time Ozzie gives the CF job back to Wise, KW should fire Ozzie.

JB98
04-26-2009, 08:19 PM
I thought the Sox played well today -- just got beat by a good team throwing its best pitcher. Linebrink has been solid for us -- just not today.

I wish we could have gotten more than one run out of that first inning. Against a guy like Halladay, you gotta get him early. Thanks to the big hit by Konerko, we did get three runs the first three innings. But we could have gotten more.

I'm encouraged that Contreras matched Halladay and kept us in it. It came down to bullpens, and their bullpen was better than ours today.

There are a lot of stupid Sox fans overreacting to Guillen comments in this thread. Ozzie played for us for 13 years. This is his sixth year as manager. You all know damn well he talks out his ass all the time. By next week, he could be singing an entirely different tune.

kittle42
04-26-2009, 08:20 PM
It's comments like that along with many other things Ozzie does that make him the idiot he can be most of the time.

If brian keeps playing anywhere near the level he is at now, in no way should Wise get his spot back. He should have never had it in the first place. Getz has worked out great at the top of the order. What does Wise bring the table other than terrible defense and a bad bat? Nothing. If BA is hitting 290 or higher when wise is back and loses his starting job, ozzie needs to lose his. It's such a slap in the face to BA and the fans.

Regardless of whether I agree with you or not, I think this is one of my favorite lines of the week.

BoysMom3
04-26-2009, 08:25 PM
A lot of our players are looking really good. I was disappointed with the final outcome, but I thought we played a good game. BA!! Looking good!!!

LoveYourSuit
04-26-2009, 08:32 PM
CQ and Thome not cutting it at the 3-4 right now.

1-2 have been doing more than expected so far to set the table, but all dies down with those two guys.


Paulie appears to be swinging the hotest bat of the bunch, I think he needs to go back to clean up.

DonnieDarko
04-26-2009, 08:44 PM
I'm...trying to understand why Ozzie said that. The only conclusion that I can think of is that if BA is sucking up the joint by the time that Wise comes back that Wise gets the job, but...somehow I don't think that that's it. Either way, it's a bit odd that Ozzie would say such a thing.

Frater Perdurabo
04-26-2009, 08:47 PM
There are a lot of stupid Sox fans overreacting to Guillen comments in this thread. Ozzie played for us for 13 years. This is his sixth year as manager. You all know damn well he talks out his ass all the time. By next week, he could be singing an entirely different tune.

Yes, he might say something different next week or even tomorrow.

But based on his six years of managing, we also know Ozzie is stubborn.

It is possible he really does think Wise is a better player. :(:

It's Dankerific
04-26-2009, 08:50 PM
There are a lot of stupid Sox fans overreacting to Guillen comments in this thread. Ozzie played for us for 13 years. This is his sixth year as manager. You all know damn well he talks out his ass all the time. By next week, he could be singing an entirely different tune.

Maybe the "stupid Sox fans" are the ones who can't see any fault in their manager and make excuses for him.

Quentin4prez
04-26-2009, 08:58 PM
I think that ozzie thinks he is motivating BA ozzie isn't that dumb he knows he can't take BA out of this lineup if he is hitting anything above .250. Maybe that is what BA needs to be motivated? In 06 he was handed the job and now he fights for it and does well. i don't agree with it but i can see the logic.

JB98
04-26-2009, 09:04 PM
Yes, he might say something different next week or even tomorrow.

But based on his six years of managing, we also know Ozzie is stubborn.

It is possible he really does think Wise is a better player. :(:

Ozzie is stubborn. He's also a good manager. Not a great manager, but a good one.

I think you guys are just excessively paranoid. You were all worried when Owens came up that Ozzie was going to play him ahead of BA. Well, guess what? BA has started every single game since Wise went down. Owens has only gotten one start in CF, and BA started in RF for that game.

I've come to the conclusion that most of you BA guys are just complainers. I mean, BA has strung together a pretty good stretch of five or six games here. You should be enjoying that. Hell, I'm happy to see him playing well, and I've criticized him many, many times on this board.

Instead, we have people bitching about some comments that Guillen made, when you all know that most of the things that come out of Ozzie's mouth aren't worth the paper they are printed on.

guillensdisciple
04-26-2009, 09:08 PM
Ozzie is stubborn. He's also a good manager. Not a great manager, but a good one.

I think you guys are just excessively paranoid. You were all worried when Owens came up that Ozzie was going to play him ahead of BA. Well, guess what? BA has started every single game since Wise went down. Owens has only gotten one start in CF, and BA started in RF for that game.

I've come to the conclusion that most of you BA guys are just complainers. I mean, BA has strung together a pretty good stretch of five or six games here. You should be enjoying that. Hell, I'm happy to see him playing well, and I've criticized him many, many times on this board.

Instead, we have people bitching about some comments that Guillen made, when you all know that most of the things that come out of Ozzie's mouth aren't worth the paper they are printed on.

Thank you sir, that was very well put.

JB98
04-26-2009, 09:09 PM
Maybe the "stupid Sox fans" are the ones who can't see any fault in their manager and make excuses for him.

What excuses am I making? Ozzie has oral diarrhea. That's part of who he is. I'm able to deal with the fact that he is not perfect, because he has gotten good results in his years as White Sox manager. We've had far worse managers than Ozzie in my lifetime.

I don't feel like I have to justify my intelligence to you. More than anything, your posts amuse me.

Frater Perdurabo
04-26-2009, 09:21 PM
What excuses am I making? Ozzie has oral diarrhea. That's part of who he is. I'm able to deal with the fact that he is not perfect, because he has gotten good results in his years as White Sox manager. We've had far worse managers than Ozzie in my lifetime.

I hope that Ozzie has learned a few things during his managerial tenure. But I think that he thinks he doesn't need to learn anything new, because he won a World Series in his second year as manager. The CF thing is just one example. It's also his stubborn refusal to do anything meaningful about teaching and emphasizing fundamentals (despite him talking about it at least once a year), his robotic bullpen management, and his loyalty (to a fault) to "his guys." Bottom line? In addition to chronic oral diarrhea, I think Ozzie is also stubborn and lazy. Yes, he's better than Bevington, Lamont and Manuel. But I think LaRussa and Torborg would have gone to the playoffs more often with Ozzie's players.

It's Dankerific
04-26-2009, 09:24 PM
What excuses am I making? Ozzie has oral diarrhea. That's part of who he is. I'm able to deal with the fact that he is not perfect, because he has gotten good results in his years as White Sox manager. We've had far worse managers than Ozzie in my lifetime.

I don't feel like I have to justify my intelligence to you. More than anything, your posts amuse me.

You felt the need to call a bunch of Sox fans stupid, I just pointed out that perhaps that wasn't the case.

JB98
04-26-2009, 09:36 PM
I hope that Ozzie has learned a few things during his managerial tenure. But I think that he thinks he doesn't need to learn anything new, because he won a World Series in his second year as manager. The CF thing is just one example. It's also his stubborn refusal to do anything meaningful about teaching and emphasizing fundamentals (despite him talking about it at least once a year), his robotic bullpen management, and his loyalty (to a fault) to "his guys." Bottom line? In addition to chronic oral diarrhea, I think Ozzie is also stubborn and lazy. Yes, he's better than Bevington, Lamont and Manuel. But I think LaRussa and Torborg would have gone to the playoffs more often with Ozzie's players.

Well, there's not much doubt that LaRussa is better than Ozzie. LaRussa is one of the best I've seen in my lifetime. He almost always gets the best out of his roster. LaRussa is better than everyone currently managing in the AL Central.

Torborg? I don't know about that. He obviously had different methods than Ozzie, but I'd also put him in the good, but not great, category. The only year we missed the playoffs under Ozzie that we should have made them was 2006. Would another manager have gotten us there? Not sure, especially the way Buerhle and Contreras fell apart down the stretch of that season.

Just curious, who do you think Ozzie's "guys" are? I always thought Ozzie gave Garcia too much rope when he was here, but I really don't sense that the clubhouse is divided into a group of "Ozzie guys" and "non-Ozzie guys."

JB98
04-26-2009, 09:40 PM
You felt the need to call a bunch of Sox fans stupid, I just pointed out that perhaps that wasn't the case.

There's not much question there are a lot of stupid posts made after losses.

Today is no exception.

Noneck
04-26-2009, 09:41 PM
It's also his stubborn refusal to do anything meaningful about teaching and emphasizing fundamentals (despite him talking about it at least once a year)

I thought about this again today with Ramirez "trying" to bunt. I am amazed that no player on this team has improved their bunting technique during Ozwaldos tenure. This truly bothers me because Ozwaldo was a decent bunter and Cora was a good bunter. Is it that they don't teach, are bad teachers, players don't listen or don't understand him?

Holding runners on base is another situation although Danks is one that has improved, maybe by watching or talking to Buehrle?

JB98
04-26-2009, 10:03 PM
I thought about this again today with Ramirez "trying" to bunt. I am amazed that no player on this team has improved their bunting technique during Ozwaldos tenure. This truly bothers me because Ozwaldo was a decent bunter and Cora was a good bunter. Is it that they don't teach, are bad teachers, players don't listen or don't understand him?

Holding runners on base is another situation although Danks is one that has improved, maybe by watching or talking to Buehrle?

Here is one of my gripes with Ozzie (for those who think I'm an Ozzie apologist): He tries to bunt in some odd situations. Ramirez looks like he is starting to come out of his slump. I wasn't real sure why Ozzie wanted Ramirez to bunt BA over to set up an RBI situation for Lillibridge. I would just assume let Alexei try to shoot one through the hole on the right side in that situation. Although, I'm not sure Ramirez is looking to hit to the opposite field too much these days.

Frater Perdurabo
04-26-2009, 10:18 PM
Just curious, who do you think Ozzie's "guys" are? I always thought Ozzie gave Garcia too much rope when he was here, but I really don't sense that the clubhouse is divided into a group of "Ozzie guys" and "non-Ozzie guys."

I don't think the clubhouse is divided. I think the over-loyalty is with his coaches, especially Walker and Cora.

We obviously agree on LaRussa. As for Torborg, I think he would have had the 2004 and 2006 teams practicing and displaying more fundamentals. It's not just bunting and the hit and run, but also hitting the other way, throwing to the cutoff man, and good defensive positioning, especially in the outfield. I also think Torborg was better at handling young players; obviously they did exceptionally well under his tutelage in 1990. You're right that he couldn't have prevented Buehrle and Contreras from melting down at the end of 2006, but they might have staked an even bigger lead during the first half of 2006 and thus have been in better position in September. As for now, I'd like to see Ozzie as the manager and Torborg as his bench coach.

JB98
04-26-2009, 10:30 PM
I don't think the clubhouse is divided. I think the over-loyalty is with his coaches, especially Walker and Cora.

We obviously agree on LaRussa. As for Torborg, I think he would have had the 2004 and 2006 teams practicing and displaying more fundamentals. It's not just bunting and the hit and run, but also hitting the other way, throwing to the cutoff man, and good defensive positioning, especially in the outfield. I also think Torborg was better at handling young players; obviously they did exceptionally well under his tutelage in 1990. You're right that he couldn't have prevented Buehrle and Contreras from melting down at the end of 2006, but they might have staked an even bigger lead during the first half of 2006 and thus have been in better position in September. As for now, I'd like to see Ozzie as the manager and Torborg as his bench coach.

What is Torborg doing these days? I haven't heard anything about him in awhile.

Torborg definitely did a nice job with that young club in 1990, but in fairness to Ozzie, Torborg had more young players to handle. We've had mostly veteran clubs during the Guillen years. I think there's a different dynamic when you have a young club like the 1990 team that had just a few vets (Fisk, Ozzie, Calderon), as opposed to a veteran club that has just a few youngsters. It's harder for young players to break in on a veteran team. Put Fields and BA on truth serum, and they'd tell you that.

We've had a mixed bag with young players here in recent years. They've brought in young players from other organizations who needed a fresh start, and they've flourished. Jenks, Floyd, Danks and Quentin have just taken off as members of the Sox. Don't Ozzie and his staff deserve some credit for that? They certainly take their fair share of heat (some of it justified) for the uneven development of guys like Fields and Anderson, who were drafted by the Sox and came up through the organization -- but have struggled to gain traction at the big-league level. Both those guys are showing signs right now, so maybe we can get the corner turned with them.

Frater Perdurabo
04-26-2009, 10:46 PM
What is Torborg doing these days? I haven't heard anything about him in awhile.

Torborg definitely did a nice job with that young club in 1990, but in fairness to Ozzie, Torborg had more young players to handle. We've had mostly veteran clubs during the Guillen years. I think there's a different dynamic when you have a young club like the 1990 team that had just a few vets (Fisk, Ozzie, Calderon), as opposed to a veteran club that has just a few youngsters. It's harder for young players to break in on a veteran team. Put Fields and BA on truth serum, and they'd tell you that.

We've had a mixed bag with young players here in recent years. They've brought in young players from other organizations who needed a fresh start, and they've flourished. Jenks, Floyd, Danks and Quentin have just taken off as members of the Sox. Don't Ozzie and his staff deserve some credit for that? They certainly take their fair share of heat (some of it justified) for the uneven development of guys like Fields and Anderson, who were drafted by the Sox and came up through the organization -- but have struggled to gain traction at the big-league level. Both those guys are showing signs right now, so maybe we can get the corner turned with them.

I guess the question is, then: Would Ozzie Guillen as manager have won 94 games with the 1990 Sox team? I don't think so. I think he simply prefers veterans and keeps youngsters - especially young hitters - on a very short leash. Jenks and Quentin produced immediately in a big way. With Danks and Floyd, Ozzie really didn't have any alternatives in 2007, so he had to keep sending them out there.

JB98
04-26-2009, 10:58 PM
I guess the question is, then: Would Ozzie Guillen as manager have won 94 games with the 1990 Sox team? I don't think so. I think he simply prefers veterans and keeps youngsters - especially young hitters - on a very short leash. Jenks and Quentin produced immediately in a big way. With Danks and Floyd, Ozzie really didn't have any alternatives in 2007, so he had to keep sending them out there.

Ozzie as player/manager of the 1990 team? :D:

Would Torborg have won the World Series with the 2005 team? Possibly, but maybe not. But I think Ozzie was the right man at the right time for the organization. He gave the clubhouse the kick in the ass it needed after the malaise of the Manuel years.

I think this year will actually be a good litmus test for how Ozzie and staff handle young position players. We have several hanging around: Quentin, Ramirez, Fields, Getz, BA, Lillibridge. I feel pretty good that what TCQ and Ramirez accomplished last year was no fluke, and that they'll be forces again this year. But out of those other four, we're going to need at least two and possibly three to make major contributions if we're going to get to the playoffs.

Those young guys, and getting one more year out of the weary right arms of Contreras and Colon, are big keys this season.

Sockinchisox
04-26-2009, 11:01 PM
Here is one of my gripes with Ozzie (for those who think I'm an Ozzie apologist): He tries to bunt in some odd situations. Ramirez looks like he is starting to come out of his slump. I wasn't real sure why Ozzie wanted Ramirez to bunt BA over to set up an RBI situation for Lillibridge. I would just assume let Alexei try to shoot one through the hole on the right side in that situation. Although, I'm not sure Ramirez is looking to hit to the opposite field too much these days.

I agree 100% with this, I was wondering why the hell Ramirez was bunting in that situation. Dude finally has a big game the previous night and Ozzie goes and tells him to bunt, ugh.

Noneck
04-26-2009, 11:20 PM
Here is one of my gripes with Ozzie (for those who think I'm an Ozzie apologist): He tries to bunt in some odd situations. Ramirez looks like he is starting to come out of his slump. I wasn't real sure why Ozzie wanted Ramirez to bunt BA over to set up an RBI situation for Lillibridge. I would just assume let Alexei try to shoot one through the hole on the right side in that situation. Although, I'm not sure Ramirez is looking to hit to the opposite field too much these days.
My comment was not about managerial strategy but about the lack of progress in teaching basic fundamentals by the Sox manager and staff.

JB98
04-26-2009, 11:24 PM
My comment was not about managerial strategy but about the lack of progress in basic fundamentals by the Sox manager and staff.

I know. I was just using that to demonstrate that I do, in fact, disagree with some of the things that Guillen does. Since I don't buy into certain other ideologies on this board, I've been accused of thinking that Ozzie walks on water or something.

TomBradley72
04-26-2009, 11:31 PM
My $0.02:


Why is it "Walkerball" when our offense struggles...but it's not "Cooperball" when our pitching completely sucks?
I don't see the role of the manager as developing "fundamental" skills of players at the major league level. I think that's primarily the job of either the minor league instructors or the GM in acquiring players with fundamental skills already in place.
It's easy to tell Ozzie to stop putting Linebrink out there...but our bullpen is ALREADY a revolving door and we're not even out of April yet and we have very little help in the minors to draw on.
We lost a winnable game to one of the better pitchers in the league and a team that's off to a pretty good start.

Noneck
04-27-2009, 12:11 AM
My $0.02:



I don't see the role of the manager as developing "fundamental" skills of players at the major league level. I think that's primarily the job of either the minor league instructors or the GM in acquiring players with fundamental skills already in place.


I do agree with you but then why does he always talk about getting more fundamentally sound, if he won't do it and its too late to be done at the level where it should be done?

chisox77
04-27-2009, 10:03 AM
This was just a tough loss to a good (for now) team.