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Crede24Thome25
04-21-2009, 09:33 PM
I know I'm not the only one thinking this or maybe I am, why isn't Contreras in the minors? Let Richard take his spot in the rotation while he makes a few starts down in Charlotte. Just like the Sox should not rush Wise back they should not have rushed Contreras back.

jabrch
04-21-2009, 09:37 PM
I know I'm not the only one thinking this or maybe I am, why isn't Contreras in the minors? Let Richard take his spot in the rotation while he makes a few starts down in Charlotte. Just like the Sox should not rush Wise back they should not have rushed Contreras back.

And how exactly do you propose we send him to the minors?

kevingrt
04-21-2009, 09:39 PM
And how exactly do you propose we send him to the minors?

Shhh...

hi im skot
04-21-2009, 09:39 PM
Epic eyeroll.

I understand you're frustrated about tonight's game, and yes, Contreras has underperformed over the first few weeks, but you can't just send everyone you don't like down to the minors.

Contreras drives all of us crazy at times, but he's shown that he can consistently get the job done. Give him some time to work back to where he should be.

By the way, it's not like Richard has been lighting up the league lately.

doublem23
04-21-2009, 09:43 PM
And how exactly do you propose we send him to the minors?

Sneak him in with a big overcoat and a Groucho Marx mask.

asindc
04-21-2009, 09:44 PM
epic eyeroll.

I understand you're frustrated about tonight's game, and yes, contreras has underperformed over the first few weeks, but you can't just send everyone you don't like down to the minors.

Contreras drives all of us crazy at times, but he's shown that he can consistently get the job done. Give him some time to work back to where he should be.

By the way, it's not like richard has been lighting up the league lately.

no! Now! Now! Now! Now!

Lip Man 1
04-21-2009, 09:45 PM
Crede:

Maybe because Richard isn't any better then Jose.

Rick Morrissey said it well on Chicago Tribune Live! this afternoon. (paraphrasing) 'Contreras is a nice story but he needs to start winning games, that's the bottom line.'

Jose worked hard to come back but remember he was mediocre at best for the two previous seasons even before the two stints on the DL in 2008.

You have to give him a few more starts however in part because it's early and in part because the other options aren't that hot either.

I was thinking on one thing though, he does seem to do well for two or three innings. If the Sox can get a starter, maybe Contreras in middle relief?

That would certainly fill a hole there.

Lip

veeter
04-21-2009, 09:46 PM
Epic eyeroll.

I understand you're frustrated about tonight's game, and yes, Contreras has underperformed over the first few weeks, but you can't just send everyone you don't like down to the minors.

Contreras drives all of us crazy at times, but he's shown that he can consistently get the job done. Give him some time to work back to where he should be.

By the way, it's not like Richard has been lighting up the league lately.I agree because he's the fifth starter. Hopefully he eats innings and picks up a win here and there. The days of him dominating are long gone.

CWSpalehoseCWS
04-21-2009, 09:47 PM
While I think Contreras is probably a little rusty and will improve as the season goes on, we all have to realize he might never be able to fully recover. This might be the way Contreras performs from now on, the guy's what? 50 something?

BainesHOF
04-21-2009, 09:50 PM
Contreras' problem right now is his control (though I thought a handful of pitches that were called balls tonight were really strikes). Hopefully his control will improve with more starts. It looks like his arm is fine, and that's a positive.

Daver
04-21-2009, 09:56 PM
And how exactly do you propose we send him to the minors?

Fifteen day DL retroactive to his last start and a rehab assignment would do the trick rather easily.

asindc
04-21-2009, 10:03 PM
I know I'm not the only one thinking this or maybe I am, why isn't Contreras in the minors? Let Richard take his spot in the rotation while he makes a few starts down in Charlotte. Just like the Sox should not rush Wise back they should not have rushed Contreras back.

You were saying?

kevingrt
04-21-2009, 10:04 PM
Fifteen day DL retroactive to his last start and a rehab assignment would do the trick rather easily.

Doesn't he have to accept a trip to the DL? Or am I wrong?

Contreras' problem right now is his control (though I thought a handful of pitches that were called balls tonight were really strikes). Hopefully his control will improve with more starts. It looks like his arm is fine, and that's a positive.

Completely agree. I almost would rather see him just give up five solo HR's compared to five walks especially when no one is on base and it is just like throw some flipping strikes Jose. He has almost always been incredibly frustrating and I didn't expect much to change after coming back from knee surgery but it hasn't changed the amount I yell at the TV during a game. So frustrating!

russ99
04-21-2009, 10:05 PM
Fifteen day DL retroactive to his last start and a rehab assignment would do the trick rather easily.

You need to be injured to do that. Jose's not injured.

And I'd rather see Jose work through his control problems rather than have Richard or Marquez stink things up, go 3-4 and burn up our bullpen.

Daver
04-21-2009, 10:13 PM
You need to be injured to do that. Jose's not injured.


No you don't.

All it takes is the "mystery injury" that was causing a tightness in his left leg that was causing his forkball to skip to the plate, and have the team medical staff sign off on it. It happens a lot more than you think.

WhiteSox5187
04-21-2009, 10:20 PM
Well with the exception of toniht, he's kept us in the games, the bullpen blew open the game against Minnesota and Detroit. But he just needs to improve his control.

thomas35forever
04-21-2009, 10:23 PM
I think people are too quick to give up on Contreras. He's only made a few starts and they haven't exactly been horrible. Also, we haven't completely seen what this thinner Contreras is capable of. He's pitched fine, just not good enough to win. If he's still pitching like at the end of May, then start looking elsewhere. Until then however, Contreras in our fifth starter.

palehozenychicty
04-21-2009, 10:26 PM
He'll survive for another month or so. Then whatever happens, happens. At least we don't have to worry about him after this year.

doublem23
04-21-2009, 10:34 PM
Last year he started out slow, but had a run of something like 10-14 starts when he was undoubtedly the best pitcher on the team, so I'm not quite ready to deem his recovery a failure yet, though, that's becoming more and more because the Sox have no good replacements for Jose than it is my decreasing trust in him.

Contreras is still more likely to find his groove than Richard or Marquez will figure how to effectively pitch at the MLB level.

WizardsofOzzie
04-21-2009, 10:44 PM
No you don't.

All it takes is the "mystery injury" that was causing a tightness in his left leg that was causing his forkball to skip to the plate, and have the team medical staff sign off on it. It happens a lot more than you think.
Or simple "Arm fatigue". Didn't the Red Sox just send Dice K to the DL with that?

JB98
04-21-2009, 10:48 PM
Or simple "Arm fatigue". Didn't the Red Sox just send Dice K to the DL with that?

Yes. I look for New York to send Wang to the DL with a similar ailment soon.

jabrch
04-21-2009, 10:49 PM
Fifteen day DL retroactive to his last start and a rehab assignment would do the trick rather easily.

MLB teams don't often try to cheat the rules like this, do they? If he isn't hurt, he isn't hurt. This isn't like the old NBA where a DL stint with tendonitis was regular for 2 of the Bulls backup big men.

Woofer
04-21-2009, 10:51 PM
Yeah, he's going to have to get another 5-6 starts. If he's not able to get it together by then, he might have to go back to the bullpen like in 2007. I hope he gets it together. He wasn't even due back yet, but still we need better results from him.

soxfan43
04-21-2009, 10:56 PM
Yes. I look for New York to send Wang to the DL with a similar ailment soon.


Or anxiety disorder like Dontrelle.

JB98
04-21-2009, 10:58 PM
Yeah, he's going to have to get another 5-6 starts. If he's not able to get it together by then, he might have to go back to the bullpen like in 2007. I hope he gets it together. He wasn't even due back yet, but still we need better results from him.

That's the thing -- it isn't spring training anymore. You can't keep losing games waiting for Contreras to find his control. But then again, I do agree with other posters who have mentioned that we don't have better options.

Keep sending Jose out and hope for the best.

voodoochile
04-21-2009, 11:05 PM
MLB teams don't often try to cheat the rules like this, do they? If he isn't hurt, he isn't hurt. This isn't like the old NBA where a DL stint with tendonitis was regular for 2 of the Bulls backup big men.

Actually most NBA teams now regularly have 15 guys signed with 3 on the DL. At least that's the way it was a few years ago. Maybe it's changed.

As to Contreras. He might not want to go on the "DL" and "rehab". If he fights it (and he's in a contract year) then the Sox would look like chumps. Move him to the bullpen. He looks okay for a few innings every time he pitches anyway and give Richard the starts.

Unless he's really still recovering in which case they should approach him and put him through some tests.

tony1972
04-21-2009, 11:09 PM
I know I'm not the only one thinking this or maybe I am, why isn't Contreras in the minors? Let Richard take his spot in the rotation while he makes a few starts down in Charlotte. Just like the Sox should not rush Wise back they should not have rushed Contreras back.

You're mean.show Jose some respect...this is no way to talk about a 77 year old. :angry: He could be your grandfather!

and I think Jose has done a great job blocking some of those line drives with his cane...those could have been doubles...

drewcifer
04-21-2009, 11:16 PM
Ok, so where's the problem? We all agree he needs to be monitored, pulled at the nearest sign of filling his own pants, after this year he's gone... why can't we just do that? If we yanked him in the 5th when he started showing signs, we'd have possibly had a chance by staying in it? He's (god knows how old), last year of contract...

JB98
04-21-2009, 11:21 PM
Ok, so where's the problem? We all agree he needs to be monitored, pulled at the nearest sign of filling his own pants, after this year he's gone... why can't we just do that? If we yanked him in the 5th when he started showing signs, we'd have possibly had a chance by staying in it? He's (god knows how old), last year of contract...

Given the way Richard and Egbert got pounded, you have to wonder whether pulling Contreras an inning earlier would have made any difference.

jabrch
04-21-2009, 11:26 PM
Actually most NBA teams now regularly have 15 guys signed with 3 on the DL. At least that's the way it was a few years ago. Maybe it's changed.

As to Contreras. He might not want to go on the "DL" and "rehab". If he fights it (and he's in a contract year) then the Sox would look like chumps. Move him to the bullpen. He looks okay for a few innings every time he pitches anyway and give Richard the starts.

Unless he's really still recovering in which case they should approach him and put him through some tests.


The NBA changed its rules several years ago. Now they have a 15 man roster and 3 are not active on any given day. It gives teams that flexibility without having to "lie" about phantom injuries. In the Jordan era, you had a 12 man roster, and could have up to 3 on the DL if you had "injuries". The Bulls (and most other teams) regularly had knee tendonitis on 2 or 3 guys.

Sockinchisox
04-21-2009, 11:29 PM
Sox are going to evaluate Contreras' status in the rotation and look at possible alternatives.

http://blogs.chicagosports.chicagotribune.com/sports_hardball/2009/04/contreras-status-in-question-as-white-sox-lose-103-at-baltimore.html

drewcifer
04-21-2009, 11:34 PM
Given the way Richard and Egbert got pounded, you have to wonder whether pulling Contreras an inning earlier would have made any difference.

Yeah, for sure. But coming in with runners vs. without...

Friday game at Tampa last week - If Matt came in without full tables; maybe that series would've been a sweep. Little things like that can change everything.

You rely on your bullpen to get you out of a jam, but some of the other posters and myself question when you're pressing starters too far and making it worse on the relievers.


Evidence not favoring the decisions made to keep our OLD starters past 5 as far as I can see....

voodoochile
04-21-2009, 11:37 PM
The NBA changed its rules several years ago. Now they have a 15 man roster and 3 are not active on any given day. It gives teams that flexibility without having to "lie" about phantom injuries. In the Jordan era, you had a 12 man roster, and could have up to 3 on the DL if you had "injuries". The Bulls (and most other teams) regularly had knee tendonitis on 2 or 3 guys.

Yeah, that's what I was remembering. I even think I remember the rule change you are referring to.

Britt Burns
04-22-2009, 12:18 AM
Pull it together Jose. I don't want to see a Richard/Marquez/Broadway sized hole in the rotation.

drewcifer
04-22-2009, 12:28 AM
Pull it together Jose. I don't want to see a Richard/Marquez/Broadway sized hole in the rotation.

Rosters are huge anyway. Platoon a starting spot pitcher if you have to, I want SP to keep us in games and score innings pitched. I could give a **** if Lillibridge backs up Getz (as an example).....

Konerko05
04-22-2009, 12:38 AM
Rosters are huge anyway. Platoon a starting spot pitcher if you have to, I want SP to keep us in games and score innings pitched. I could give a **** if Lillibridge backs up Getz (as an example).....

:scratch:

drewcifer
04-22-2009, 12:50 AM
:scratch:


What's the matter? We're way passed the OPs impossible suggestion anyway. I was talking position players, right? And not those specific players, but...making room...

doublem23
04-22-2009, 01:02 AM
What's the matter? We're way passed the OPs impossible suggestion anyway. I was talking position players, right? And not those specific players, but...making room...

I think he's wondering about your platoon SP comment. How does that work? Rotate a different starter every time the 5th spot comes up, or have 2-3 pitchers that take 2-3 innings every 5th game?

P.S., we need Lillibridge around because Wilson Betemit is an absolute butcher in the middle infield.

Konerko05
04-22-2009, 01:12 AM
I think he's wondering about your platoon SP comment. How does that work? Rotate a different starter every time the 5th spot comes up, or have 2-3 pitchers that take 2-3 innings every 5th game?

P.S., we need Lillibridge around because Wilson Betemit is an absolute butcher in the middle infield.

It was basically his whole post I was confused about.

He says rosters are huge (?) but he wants to replace the only backup SS with another pitcher to platoon with Contreras?

The utility infielder is important. I'm not sure how platooning a pitcher works.

drewcifer
04-22-2009, 01:32 AM
It was basically his whole post I was confused about.

He says rosters are huge (?) but he wants to replace the only backup SS with another pitcher to platoon with Contreras?

The utility infielder is important. I'm not sure how platooning a pitcher works.

I said that was an example. There's like 12 men on the roster who are pitchers alone...you can pick one of them if it makes you feel more comfortable and put someone stretched for a starter role.

For me, you're begging for luck starting Contreras AND Colon as starters. Call me crazy. Contreras hasn't won ****, and Colon left a ****ing mess last time that could've meant a sweep. I see no reason to expect these things will change. And in my example, I would be willing to trade a position backup for that improvement. That's all.

guillensdisciple
04-22-2009, 02:20 AM
I said that was an example. There's like 12 men on the roster who are pitchers alone...you can pick one of them if it makes you feel more comfortable and put someone stretched for a starter role.

For me, you're begging for luck starting Contreras AND Colon as starters. Call me crazy. Contreras hasn't won ****, and Colon left a ****ing mess last time that could've meant a sweep. I see no reason to expect these things will change. And in my example, I would be willing to trade a position backup for that improvement. That's all.

Colon left with the bases loaded and one out with a three run lead. That should have been a hold of one or two runs by our relief staff. Don't blame Colon for that outing. He has shown nothing but good stuff out on the hill. It isn't the same Bartolo, but he has gained amazing control and movement on his pitches. If he can give us what he has given us, I have no doubt the White Sox will be just fine. Coop will work with Contreras, and he will find the strike zone. I hope and feel that this is just his reintroduction to pitching in a sense. Two or three more starts and I will begin handing my vote on what to do with him.

Chez
04-22-2009, 07:41 AM
I was thinking on one thing though, he does seem to do well for two or three innings. If the Sox can get a starter, maybe Contreras in middle relief?

That would certainly fill a hole there.

Lip

Lip:
I've thought about this move too; but because Contreras can't hold runners on base, you would be hard pressed to bring him in to a close game unless he was to start the inning. The larger problem is that we currently lack promising alternatives to Contreras in the minors -- unless Poreda is rushed up.

White City
04-22-2009, 08:07 AM
I don't see a problem. Pitch JC five innings a pop for as long as he holds up, take what we get, and bring up Poreda when he is ready, but not until.

Contreras is under contract, we aren't going to add payroll, and there is nothing immediately available in the minors. Richard needs another year of seasoning in the pen from what I see; Marquez is hot garbage. Poreda isn't ready. Egbert -- I suppose we could try that, but can we reasonably expect a better outcome than what JC would give us?

We should be happy that Colon is giving us decent starts. If I had to guess which of the two rehab projects would pan out, I wouldn't have guessed Colon, so let's just count our blessings there.

If we blow up our emergency SP options now in a knee-jerk response to unreasonable expectations for JC after three starts, then what we will have left to address a possible problem later on with Colon or (gasp!) one of our other SPs?

We just need to make it to June or so. Poreda will probably be ready then (to be a mediocre #5, but that's all JC is), and perhaps if we are still in it, Kenny will be able to add to payroll to bolster the rotation if needed.

Until then, we just have to hope for .500 ball in JC's starts and .580 ball the rest of the week. That'd be enough for 91 wins and a division title.

cws05champ
04-22-2009, 08:28 AM
Lip:
I've thought about this move too; but because Contreras can't hold runners on base, you would be hard pressed to bring him in to a close game unless he was to start the inning. The larger problem is that we currently lack promising alternatives to Contreras in the minors -- unless Poreda is rushed up.
When a guy is struggling with control, do you really want to move him to the bullpen when he has less pitches to get into a groove?

kravdog
04-22-2009, 08:34 AM
I don't see a problem. Pitch JC five innings a pop for as long as he holds up, take what we get, and bring up Poreda when he is ready, but not until.

Contreras is under contract, we aren't going to add payroll, and there is nothing immediately available in the minors. Richard needs another year of seasoning in the pen from what I see; Marquez is hot garbage. Poreda isn't ready. Egbert -- I suppose we could try that, but can we reasonably expect a better outcome than what JC would give us?

We should be happy that Colon is giving us decent starts. If I had to guess which of the two rehab projects would pan out, I wouldn't have guessed Colon, so let's just count our blessings there.

If we blow up our emergency SP options now in a knee-jerk response to unreasonable expectations for JC after three starts, then what we will have left to address a possible problem later on with Colon or (gasp!) one of our other SPs?

We just need to make it to June or so. Poreda will probably be ready then (to be a mediocre #5, but that's all JC is), and perhaps if we are still in it, Kenny will be able to add to payroll to bolster the rotation if needed.

Until then, we just have to hope for .500 ball in JC's starts and .580 ball the rest of the week. That'd be enough for 91 wins and a division title.


agreed.

asindc
04-22-2009, 08:37 AM
I don't see a problem. Pitch JC five innings a pop for as long as he holds up, take what we get, and bring up Poreda when he is ready, but not until.

Contreras is under contract, we aren't going to add payroll, and there is nothing immediately available in the minors. Richard needs another year of seasoning in the pen from what I see; Marquez is hot garbage. Poreda isn't ready. Egbert -- I suppose we could try that, but can we reasonably expect a better outcome than what JC would give us?

We should be happy that Colon is giving us decent starts. If I had to guess which of the two rehab projects would pan out, I wouldn't have guessed Colon, so let's just count our blessings there.

If we blow up our emergency SP options now in a knee-jerk response to unreasonable expectations for JC after three starts, then what we will have left to address a possible problem later on with Colon or (gasp!) one of our other SPs?

We just need to make it to June or so. Poreda will probably be ready then (to be a mediocre #5, but that's all JC is), and perhaps if we are still in it, Kenny will be able to add to payroll to bolster the rotation if needed.

Until then, we just have to hope for .500 ball in JC's starts and .580 ball the rest of the week. That'd be enough for 91 wins and a division title.

Excellent post.

thedudeabides
04-22-2009, 09:03 AM
Lip:
I've thought about this move too; but because Contreras can't hold runners on base, you would be hard pressed to bring him in to a close game unless he was to start the inning. The larger problem is that we currently lack promising alternatives to Contreras in the minors -- unless Poreda is rushed up.

Another problem with moving Jose to the bullpen is he supposedly takes a very long time to get loose. And I really think it's premature to start thinking about this.

The good news is his problems don't seem to be of the physical nature. He just doesn't have his command. He's gone through these stretches in the past and has rebounded. He had a shorter spring than the rest of the staff, except Colon, so he may just need a bit more time to get his mechanics together after being on the shelf for a good portion of last season.

It's still only three starts in, and to be honest I expected Jose and Colon to get off to slow starts. Jose has gotten off to slow starts when he was entering the season completely healthy. I understand everyone's concern, but I don't think it's time to panic just yet.

ChiSoxFan81
04-22-2009, 09:36 AM
We need a little more patience with Jose. He worked his ass off to get back. Give him a couple more starts. If he doesn't show any signs of improvement, then we make a move.

DonnieDarko
04-22-2009, 10:18 AM
...three starts into the season and he's already a "problem"? Patience, people...

southside rocks
04-22-2009, 10:31 AM
I think he's wondering about your platoon SP comment. How does that work? Rotate a different starter every time the 5th spot comes up, or have 2-3 pitchers that take 2-3 innings every 5th game?



Like the 'college of coaches' idea but with starters? Let's call it 'parade of pitchers'!

jdm2662
04-22-2009, 10:41 AM
MLB teams don't often try to cheat the rules like this, do they? If he isn't hurt, he isn't hurt. This isn't like the old NBA where a DL stint with tendonitis was regular for 2 of the Bulls backup big men.

Inflammed ERA is a common injury for pitchers.

mcfish
04-22-2009, 11:23 AM
And how exactly do you propose we send him to the minors?
Outright him to Charlotte. Let's see if anyone's bold enough to claim him off waivers. Then he can be their problem...

doublem23
04-22-2009, 11:31 AM
Outright him to Charlotte. Let's see if anyone's bold enough to claim him off waivers. Then he can be their problem...

I'm certainly looking forward to a season of Marquez, Richard, Egbert, and Broadway starts!

That'll put us over the top.

RCWHITESOX
04-22-2009, 11:41 AM
That's the thing -- it isn't spring training anymore. You can't keep losing games waiting for Contreras to find his control. But then again, I do agree with other posters who have mentioned that we don't have better options.

Keep sending Jose out and hope for the best.

I have to disagree. That being said I say bring up one of our young pitchers if only to get him the experience; and hope he can compete. I just can't see any upside on Contreras.

Lip Man 1
04-22-2009, 11:53 AM
Double / Southside:

You brought up the idea of rotating pitchers for two / three innings each when the 5th starter spot comes up.

It has been considered in the past on a larger scale although never put into practice.

LaRussa and Duncan were actually considering the idea of going through an entire season having pitchers only work three innings at a time.

What they toyed with was having a staff say of 11 pitchers and working it like this. Every pitcher would be assigned a number:

Example:

Game #1 Monday Use pitchers #1, #2, #3.

Game #2 Tuesday Use pitchers #4, #5, #6

Game #3 Wednesday Use pitchers #7, #8, #9

Off Day

Game #4 Friday Use pitchers #10, #11, #1

Game #5 Saturday Use pitchers #2, #3. #4

And so on throughout the season.

They were considering the fact that it might cut down on the work load, give opposing managers fits especially in the late innings and give everyone regular work. In case of extra innings the next number in the sequence would go into the game after the previous pitcher threw his three innings.

It would have been interesting to see what happened if they tried it.

Lip

Britt Burns
04-22-2009, 12:36 PM
For some reason I keep thinking that there was a team in the '80s that did try a rotation within their 5th SP slot, with the idea that three guys would each pitch 3 innings. The post-Billy Martin A's, maybe? I could be completely off base...

For the record, I made the original post that I think confused a bunch of people. I said I didn't want a Richard/Broadway/Marquez sized hole in the rotation. I meant that one of those three would have to take Contreras' spot, and if they did it would be a disaster. You could easily add Egbert and (at this point at least) Poreda into that statement.

I've learned that you doubt KW at your own peril, but I do have to say going into the sason with 2 aging, injury prone starters with a spotty track record in recent years and no good backup plan wasn't one of his better moves. We don't want another 1996 or 2003 where the lack of any kind of a 5th starter killed our chances.

EndemicSox
04-22-2009, 12:53 PM
Colon being a solid starter once again is huge, as Contreras looks done, imo...

JB98
04-22-2009, 01:05 PM
I have to disagree. That being said I say bring up one of our young pitchers if only to get him the experience; and hope he can compete. I just can't see any upside on Contreras.

Like whom? Enlighten us, please.

We're trying to win a division and get to the playoffs here. That's the objective. Not to get experience for one of our young pitchers.

If one of our young pitchers can help us win now, that's great. But this is not the Instructional League.

mcfish
04-22-2009, 01:18 PM
I'm certainly looking forward to a season of Marquez, Richard, Egbert, and Broadway starts!

That'll put us over the top.I guess my post went a little further than I had planned it to in an attempt to be funny.

What I meant to do was to answer the question of how we could get Contreras to Charlotte. And the answer, if it were ever to get to the point of needing to send him there, is to just put him on waivers and send him. I don't think any other team is going to bail us out of that contract by claiming him off waivers for us, even if it is in its final year.

Also, he's 0-3 with an 8 ERA - I'm pretty sure that Marquez, Richard, Egbert, or Broadway could have led us to similar results.

Lip Man 1
04-22-2009, 01:19 PM
JB:

Ozzie couldn't have said it better himself.

Lip

Dan H
04-22-2009, 01:22 PM
Right now the Sox have no choice but to start Contreras, and three starts is not a full indication of anything. But he was a question mark to start and still is. Since he worked his ass off to get back, he deserves to get a real shot. Yet, the Sox should at least think of a back up plan if Contreras doesn't pan out. They shouldn't wait until he's 0-8.

SoxSpeed22
04-22-2009, 01:27 PM
Personally, I think Jose is having the same problem with his arm angles that he had in 2007. He is caught in between them and is not making good pitches. He tried dropping down too many times and kept missing with those pitches. I'm pretty sure that Coop will tell him to simplify things again.

Konerko05
04-22-2009, 01:27 PM
I'm not ready to put Contreras in the "done" category yet.

His arm looks healthy. His fastball is good enough to throw past hitters.

Obviously his command has to improve, but he just needs to find the feel for his forkball. He hasn't thrown one good forkball all season.

He threw a couple breaking balls from the lower arm angle, but that isn't enough to take hitters off his fastball.

JB98
04-22-2009, 01:34 PM
JB:

Ozzie couldn't have said it better himself.

Lip

Ozzie has used that line a few times, and I've agreed with him every time he's said it. I think it's appropriate here.

I have no interest in seeing Lance Broadway get starts for the sake of him "getting experience." I believe the 2009 White Sox have the opportunity to win this rather weak division and go to the playoffs. The Sox are trying to win, not develop mediocre talent at the big-league level.

I'm not happy with the way Jose is throwing the ball at all, but quite frankly, I haven't seen enough from Richard, Marquez, Egbert, Broadway, etc., to justify taking the ball out of Jose's hands. Yet.

Another poster indicated that Poreda might be ready for the bigs in a couple months. I was impressed by Poreda in the spring, and I agree with that assessment. But he's not quite prepared for a spot in the big-league rotation at this time.

We'll see where Contreras is three or four starts from now. If we're still seeing these control issues a month down the road, it will be time to re-evaluate things.

thedudeabides
04-22-2009, 01:59 PM
Ozzie has used that line a few times, and I've agreed with him every time he's said it. I think it's appropriate here.

I have no interest in seeing Lance Broadway get starts for the sake of him "getting experience." I believe the 2009 White Sox have the opportunity to win this rather weak division and go to the playoffs. The Sox are trying to win, not develop mediocre talent at the big-league level.

I'm not happy with the way Jose is throwing the ball at all, but quite frankly, I haven't seen enough from Richard, Marquez, Egbert, Broadway, etc., to justify taking the ball out of Jose's hands. Yet.

Another poster indicated that Poreda might be ready for the bigs in a couple months. I was impressed by Poreda in the spring, and I agree with that assessment. But he's not quite prepared for a spot in the big-league rotation at this time.

We'll see where Contreras is three or four starts from now. If we're still seeing these control issues a month down the road, it will be time to re-evaluate things.

Completely agree. There are a few things to keep in mind with Jose's rapid recovery and the effects they may be having on him.

1. The achilles injury was on his plant leg and he has also dropped thirty pounds. He may not fully trust the leg, couple that with the change in his body and it may be affecting his mechanics.

2. He can't get his forkball over with any consistency. It's his out pitch, and this especially makes him ineffective to lefties. It's also a feel pitch and he clearly doesn't have a feel for it yet. Two of his outings have been in pretty poor weather conditions, making it tougher for him to get a feel for the ball.

3. His stamina isn't yet where it needs to be. It's a tough spot for the coaching staff because the only way to get it there is to let him go deeper in games(Where he is getting hit hard). You can see his fastball has been up as he gets to the fifth and sixth inning. With him missing most of last season he'll need some time to get his strength back. Maybe, giving him some extended spring training time would have been the way to go. However, he looked ready towards the end of spring training and Jose is a proud guy. Then again, it was just spring training.

I know this sounds like a laundry list of excuses, but it's not meant to be. Just making a couple of observations. He's going to need a few more starts to get some of these things right. Ozzie probably should have pulled him after the fifth yesterday, but I think they want to build his arm.

I like that they've put him on notice that he needs to start improving. I hope it lights a fire under him. Right now, he is our fifth starter so I guess there can be some leeway with the rest of the staff pitching so well, but if his outings don't start improving it'll be tough to keep watching him march out to the mound.

doublem23
04-22-2009, 02:17 PM
:clap: Very good analysis (doesn't hurt that it basically mirrors my sentiments about Jose :wink:).

Ultimately, I still think its more likely that Jose turn things around if we just stick with him than it is that we find a MLB quality starter in the Richard/Marquez/etc. logjam.

JohnTucker0814
04-22-2009, 02:26 PM
Completely agree. There are a few things to keep in mind with Jose's rapid recovery and the effects they may be having on him.

1. The achilles injury was on his plant leg and he has also dropped thirty pounds. He may not fully trust the leg, couple that with the change in his body and it may be affecting his mechanics.

2. He can't get his forkball over with any consistency. It's his out pitch, and this especially makes him ineffective to lefties. It's also a feel pitch and he clearly doesn't have a feel for it yet. Two of his outings have been in pretty poor weather conditions, making it tougher for him to get a feel for the ball.

3. His stamina isn't yet where it needs to be. It's a tough spot for the coaching staff because the only way to get it there is to let him go deeper in games(Where he is getting hit hard). You can see his fastball has been up as he gets to the fifth and sixth inning. With him missing most of last season he'll need some time to get his strength back. Maybe, giving him some extended spring training time would have been the way to go. However, he looked ready towards the end of spring training and Jose is a proud guy. Then again, it was just spring training.

I know this sounds like a laundry list of excuses, but it's not meant to be. Just making a couple of observations. He's going to need a few more starts to get some of these things right. Ozzie probably should have pulled him after the fifth yesterday, but I think they want to build his arm.

I like that they've put him on notice that he needs to start improving. I hope it lights a fire under him. Right now, he is our fifth starter so I guess there can be some leeway with the rest of the staff pitching so well, but if his outings don't start improving it'll be tough to keep watching him march out to the mound.

Why build up his arm in the game when you know he is going to start giving up a lot of hits. How about removing him after 5 innings, then sending him down to the bullpen to get the rest of his work in, where it won't matter to the wins or losses?

thedudeabides
04-22-2009, 02:56 PM
Why build up his arm in the game when you know he is going to start giving up a lot of hits. How about removing him after 5 innings, then sending him down to the bullpen to get the rest of his work in, where it won't matter to the wins or losses?

That's why I said Ozzie probably should've pulled him. But, recent comments by Ozzie and Coop have said they want Jose and Bartolo to start working deeper into games, and if memory serves Jose was only around 80 pitches going into the 6th.

CashMan
04-22-2009, 02:56 PM
Why build up his arm in the game when you know he is going to start giving up a lot of hits. How about removing him after 5 innings, then sending him down to the bullpen to get the rest of his work in, where it won't matter to the wins or losses?



I smell simulated games!!!!!

DonnieDarko
04-22-2009, 03:07 PM
You know, I've always wondered. What is a simulated game? I mean, yeah, I know that it's a simulation of a real game, but how does it work?

southside rocks
04-22-2009, 03:19 PM
Double / Southside:

You brought up the idea of rotating pitchers for two / three innings each when the 5th starter spot comes up.

It has been considered in the past on a larger scale although never put into practice.

LaRussa and Duncan were actually considering the idea of going through an entire season having pitchers only work three innings at a time.

Lip

That is interesting, thanks for that, Lip. I spent a few minutes after I posted my comment wondering if the 'parade of pitchers' concept would actually create more work for the pitchers, it's interesting to see it spelled out like that.

I don't want the Sox to try it, though. :tongue:

chisox77
04-22-2009, 04:08 PM
Lance Broadway is the answer!

Crede24Thome25
04-22-2009, 04:45 PM
You need to be injured to do that. Jose's not injured.

And I'd rather see Jose work through his control problems rather than have Richard or Marquez stink things up, go 3-4 and burn up our bullpen.

He's not injured to the best of our knowledge.:?:

russ99
04-22-2009, 06:52 PM
Given the way Richard and Egbert got pounded, you have to wonder whether pulling Contreras an inning earlier would have made any difference.

That was my problem with Ozzie pulling Bartolo in the Rays loss. But that's an easy place to look with hindsight. If Ozzie yanks him, people complain; if he leaves him in, people complain.

Also with Jose having a slow start and as a free agent next year, and Richard and Marquez not stepping up, that increases the chance that Kenny may get another starter before the deadline. He usually doesn't leave the rotation to this much chance, which is an anomaly that he will correct - before next season at the latest.

Ranger
04-22-2009, 07:59 PM
Why build up his arm in the game when you know he is going to start giving up a lot of hits. How about removing him after 5 innings, then sending him down to the bullpen to get the rest of his work in, where it won't matter to the wins or losses?

Because somebody has to cover the innings he doesn't pitch. The point is for them to use the bullpen as little as possible so as to not wear them down by August. At some point soon, he has to be able to get through 6 and beyond and has to be able to work out of trouble on his own. Otherwise, they'll eventually blow out the pen if they go to it every time it looks like he's getting into trouble in the 5th inning.

Lip, regarding the LaRussa-Duncan idea, the problem with that is you aren't going to pull a pitcher after 3 innings if he is dominating since you you can't be sure the guy after him is gonna be as good. Thus, if you stick with that first pitcher for 6 innings, you've thrown your 3-inning-per-pitcher rotation out of whack.

Lip Man 1
04-22-2009, 09:18 PM
Chris:

I understand your point and it's my impression that the "rotation" wasn't ironclad, that it could be tweeked from time to time and honestly I don't know how serious they were about possibly using it.

But it was an interesting concept that they came up with.

The other thing would be how you'd slot the pitchers...i.e. all starters in the first five positions, then all bullpen...some sort of mix etc.

Lip

Hitmen77
04-22-2009, 10:30 PM
Several good posts on this thread. Some of you guys hit the nail on the head. Basically:

1. It's only 3 starts into the season. Yes, we're concerned but he needs a few more starts before we start panicking. At least he hasn't looked totally lost out there.

2. The Sox really don't have any better options for 5th starter.

They knew going into this season that relying on Contreras/Colon/Marquez/Richard to represent 2/5ths of our starting rotation was a risk. Quite frankly, I'm thankful that Colon has been solid so far because I was honestly expecting both the 4th and 5th spots in the rotation to be a mess right now.

CashMan
04-24-2009, 01:07 PM
Several good posts on this thread. Some of you guys hit the nail on the head. Basically:

1. It's only 3 starts into the season. Yes, we're concerned but he needs a few more starts before we start panicking. At least he hasn't looked totally lost out there.

2. The Sox really don't have any better options for 5th starter.

They knew going into this season that relying on Contreras/Colon/Marquez/Richard to represent 2/5ths of our starting rotation was a risk. Quite frankly, I'm thankful that Colon has been solid so far because I was honestly expecting both the 4th and 5th spots in the rotation to be a mess right now.

He is my question, if Jose isn't stretched out enough or cannot throw his forkball, then why was he not in extended ST, or even better, on a minor league rehab assignment? If Jose is going to struggle, let him do it there. And, if it is between Richard and Jose giving up 6 ER per start, I would rather go with Richard because he has more long term value and might learn something from the starts.

thedudeabides
04-24-2009, 01:25 PM
He is my question, if Jose isn't stretched out enough or cannot throw his forkball, then why was he not in extended ST, or even better, on a minor league rehab assignment? If Jose is going to struggle, let him do it there. And, if it is between Richard and Jose giving up 6 ER per start, I would rather go with Richard because he has more long term value and might learn something from the starts.

And getting bombed out in his starts would more likely hava a negative impact on a young, inexperienced pitcher, than it would a veteran.

The Sox thought he was ready after the spring. A lot of pitchers have to continue to work on command as the season goes on. There are a plenty of really good pitchers that don't have it together right now. Hopefully, you see him progress in his next couple of starts, and he can keep the team in the game.

I also think if there was more depth in the starting pitching they may have done just as you suggest.

CashMan
04-24-2009, 01:47 PM
And getting bombed out in his starts would more likely hava a negative impact on a young, inexperienced pitcher, than it would a veteran.

The Sox thought he was ready after the spring. A lot of pitchers have to continue to work on command as the season goes on. There are a plenty of really good pitchers that don't have it together right now. Hopefully, you see him progress in his next couple of starts, and he can keep the team in the game.

I also think if there was more depth in the starting pitching they may have done just as you suggest.

I am not saying you are wrong on all three of your points, but there seems to be a pitcher whose ERA was 5.50 his rookie year, and he seems to be doing fine. I just feel the only reason Jose is on the mound is because he is owed $10million dollars. But when you cannot throw your out pitch, there is a problem.

DoItForDanPasqua
04-25-2009, 10:20 AM
you can't just send everyone you don't like down to the minors.

.

Damn!