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sunofgold
03-31-2009, 11:31 AM
We really cannot have Wise leading off. His career OBP is so low and his career numbers at leadoff have sucked ( I know limited sample size). Alexei actually has put up some good number as leadoff (I know limited sample size).

This would be my starting lineup

Alexei
AJ
Quentin
Dye
Thome
Konerko
Fields
Wise (Anderson)
Getz

If Getz does well in the ninth hole, then consider moving him up. I know that the White Sox want Ramirez to drive in runs, but we actually a lot of guys in this lineup to do that.

Not bad having a guy leading off who could lead off the game with a home run. Ramirez also has good speed. He would have to chance his approach and actually take more pitches but I think that he could adapt.

doublem23
03-31-2009, 11:32 AM
As long as the Wise/Anderson platoon is hitting dead last in the lineup, I'll be happy with however Ozzie stacks 'em.

Eddo144
03-31-2009, 11:45 AM
We really cannot have Wise leading off. His career OBP is so low and his career numbers at leadoff have sucked ( I know limited sample size). Alexei actually has put up some good number as leadoff (I know limited sample size).

This would be my starting lineup

Alexei
AJ
Quentin
Dye
Thome
Konerko
Fields
Wise (Anderson)
Getz

If Getz does well in the ninth hole, then consider moving him up. I know that the White Sox want Ramirez to drive in runs, but we actually a lot of guys in this lineup to do that.

Not bad having a guy leading off who could lead off the game with a home run. Ramirez also has good speed. He would have to chance his approach and actually take more pitches but I think that he could adapt.
If you're going to have AJ hit second, I'd bump Quentin down one spot, behind either Dye or Thome, so that there are actually people on base for him to drive in.

Alexei is also better suited for the sixth spot; he's not patient enough to be a leadoff hitter. Really, he's a power hitter trapped in a fast body. If he weighed 40 lbs more, no one would want him to lead off.

I'd go with this lineup:

Getz
Dye
Quentin
Thome
Konerko
Ramirez
Pierzynski
Fields
Wise/Anderson

The Sox' big problem is they don't have two top-of-the-order hitters. My solution would be to shift everyone up one spot. No sense giving up outs in front of the power hitters.

EDIT: Mainly though, I agree with Doub. The difference between the absolute worst lineup and the absolute best (given that the same nine players will be used no matter what) is less than 20 runs on the season, which is nothing. I just don't think the Sox should give the most at bats to the worst starting hitter(s) on the team.

jabrch
03-31-2009, 11:57 AM
As long as the Wise/Anderson platoon is hitting dead last in the lineup, I'll be happy with however Ozzie stacks 'em.


How much a difference is there between those guys hitting 9 or 1? If they hit 9, we will have a different leadoff or #2 hitter who has an OBP lower than optimal for that job. I just don't see why some people are so riled up about this. Someone had to hit leadoff. It was going to be someone with an OBP lower than some folks would like. The only guys we have with a high OBP were never going to lead off.

Lots of anger...lots of emotion...and no better options to either play the spot or hit. There's really no significant difference in the expected productivity of any of these guys we are talking about for 9/1/2/7 despite all the posturing.

I just don't see how anyone thinks there is a measurable difference in the outcome from having a Wise/BA platoon, 162 games of Wise, Getz or Ramirez leading off. Someone has to hit 9. Someone has to hit #1. Someone has to hit #2. Someone has to fill in a spot at the bottom half of the order. Who hits where, providing we don't do something catastrophicly stupid like hitting Thome #1 or something like that, when we are probably talking about 9, 1, 2 and 7 (some combination or 2B, CF, SS and C)...really...end of the day...what's the difference?

tm1119
03-31-2009, 12:04 PM
I'm really not sure there is a way to assemble this group of guys that we have that is the obvious right answer. Ozzie is just going to have to mix and match until something clicks. But this is what I would start off with:

1. Getz
2. Aj
3. Quentin
4. Thome
5. Dye
6. Konerko
7. Alexei
8. Fields
9. Anderson/Wise

Eddo144
03-31-2009, 12:07 PM
How much a difference is there between those guys hitting 9 or 1? If they hit 9, we will have a different leadoff or #2 hitter who has an OBP lower than optimal for that job. I just don't see why some people are so riled up about this. Someone had to hit leadoff. It was going to be someone with an OBP lower than some folks would like. The only guys we have with a high OBP were never going to lead off.
It matters most in that the Wise/Anderson combo will be getting the most at bats on the team. I'd be in favor of the current lineup, just shifted. Like you say, they'll still be just before Getz (or the current #2 hitter), but at least their at bats would be limited.

doublem23
03-31-2009, 12:07 PM
How much a difference is there between those guys hitting 9 or 1? If they hit 9, we will have a different leadoff or #2 hitter who has an OBP lower than optimal for that job. I just don't see why some people are so riled up about this. Someone had to hit leadoff. It was going to be someone with an OBP lower than some folks would like. The only guys we have with a high OBP were never going to lead off.

Lots of anger...lots of emotion...and no viable options to either play the spot or hit.

I just don't see how anyone thinks there is a measurable difference in the outcome from having a Wise/BA platoon, 162 games of Wise, Getz or Ramirez leading off. Someone has to hit 9. Someone has to hit #1. Someone has to hit #2. Someone has to fill in a spot at the bottom half of the order. Who hits where, providing we don't do something catastrophicly stupid like hitting Thome #1 or something like that, when we are probably talking about 9, 1, 2 and 7 (some combination or 2B, CF, SS and C)...really...end of the day...what's the difference?

The average difference between the 1 and 9 hitter over a season is 162 PA, so yes, I do think Wise/Anderson need to be hitting at the bottom of the order. That won't make the difference between 70 and 90 wins, but it could be the difference between 88 and 90 wins, and as we learned last year, 1 game can make a difference.

P.S., I guess it depends on your opinions of players, but I think hitting Wise/Anderson #1 in the lineup qualifies as something "catastrophically stupid."

jabrch
03-31-2009, 12:12 PM
It matters most in that the Wise/Anderson combo will be getting the most at bats on the team. I'd be in favor of the current lineup, just shifted. Like you say, they'll still be just before Getz (or the current #2 hitter), but at least their at bats would be limited.


How many more PA will the #1 hitter get than the #9 hitter? Multiply that out by the difference between their avg/obp/slg/rc whatever.... Over the course of a season, what are you really talking about? Virtually nothing. And that is assuming that Getz outpeforms Wise/BA which is by no means a lock - as we really don't know what to expect from any of these guys.

It is actually possilble that we get MORE offensive production from our platoon of Wise and BA than we will from Getz.

The bottom line is that this is a lot of guesswork and that there is no right or wrong answer despite the posturing by some.

NLaloosh
03-31-2009, 12:19 PM
A.J. should not be hitting second. That's ridiculous. And, it was ridiculous last year,too.

The best team and lineup is this:

Getz 2B
Ramirez SS
Quentin RF
Thome DH
Dye RF
Konerko 1B
A. J. C
Fields 3B
Anderson CF

I would plug the subs in at the same spots in the lineup. When Betemit plays 1B bat him 6th or 8th when he plays 3rd. Lillibridge should bat first or second when he plays. Wise should bat 9th when he subs for Anderson.

Create some stability in the lineup.

doublem23
03-31-2009, 12:21 PM
How many more PA will the #1 hitter get than the #9 hitter? Multiply that out by the difference between their avg/obp/slg/rc whatever.... Over the course of a season, what are you really talking about? Virtually nothing. And that is assuming that Getz outpeforms Wise/BA which is by no means a lock - as we really don't know what to expect from any of these guys.

It is actually possilble that we get MORE offensive production from our platoon of Wise and BA than we will from Getz.

The bottom line is that this is a lot of guesswork and that there is no right or wrong answer despite the posturing by some.

Well that of course is all true because for as good as the White Sox may look on paper, they still have no legitimate lead-off hitter. Looking at Chris Getz's minor league numbers (http://minors.baseball-reference.com/players.cgi?pid=5398), I have a hard time believing he could possibly be any worse than Anderson or Wise at the plate, but you are correct that this is all moot if Getz proves to be just as offensively inept as our centerfielders.

As for your ascertation that there's no real difference between who you bat 1st and 9th, well, we'll have to disagree about that. I believe there is a fundamentally smarter way to build your lineup, whereas you apparently believe you can just randomly pick your lineup out of a hat.

doublem23
03-31-2009, 12:27 PM
A.J. should not be hitting second. That's ridiculous. And, it was ridiculous last year,too.

The best team and lineup is this:

Getz 2B
Ramirez SS
Quentin RF
Thome DH
Dye RF
Konerko 1B
A. J. C
Fields 3B
Anderson CF

I would plug the subs in at the same spots in the lineup. When Betemit plays 1B bat him 6th or 8th when he plays 3rd. Lillibridge should bat first or second when he plays. Wise should bat 9th when he subs for Anderson.

Create some stability in the lineup.

AJ had a .307 OBP batting 2nd in 2008 and has a .326 lifetime OBP. Alexei had a .317 OBP and struck out more the 3x more often than he walked. So no, it's not at all "ridiculous" to suggest AJ is a better fit for the 2-hole than Alexei.

Tragg
03-31-2009, 12:28 PM
How much a difference is there between those guys hitting 9 or 1?
How much? A lot. You lead off far more innings and get many more at bats.

jabrch
03-31-2009, 12:31 PM
Well that of course is all true because for as good as the White Sox may look on paper, they still have no legitimate lead-off hitter. Looking at Chris Getz's minor league numbers (http://minors.baseball-reference.com/players.cgi?pid=5398), I have a hard time believing he could possibly be any worse than Anderson or Wise at the plate, but you are correct that this is all moot if Getz proves to be just as offensively inept as our centerfielders.

or if our CFs prove to hit better than you expect...either way.

As for your ascertation that there's no real difference between who you bat 1st and 9th, well, we'll have to disagree about that. I believe there is a fundamentally smarter way to build your lineup, whereas you apparently believe you can just randomly pick your lineup out of a hat.

I'm saying there is a difference - if you have players who distinguish themselves. I'm saying that if you have a guy who is going to hit .260/.320/.400 and another guy hitting .240/.300/.440 and another guy hitting .260/.300/.400, I do think you can pick those guys out of a hat and have almost no measurable difference.

162*.02 = about 3.25 times on base per year. What's that equate to? A run? Maybe?

doublem23
03-31-2009, 12:35 PM
I'm saying there is a difference - if you have players who distinguish themselves. I'm saying that if you have a guy who is going to hit .260/.320/.400 and another guy hitting .240/.300/.440 and another guy hitting .260/.300/.400, I do think you can pick those guys out of a hat and have almost no measurable difference.

162*.02 = about 3.25 times on base per year. What's that equate to? A run? Maybe?

Fair enough, I think we're arguing the same thing except maybe I'm a bit higher on Getz; that or I think Anderson and Wise totally suck. At any rate, I am willing to believe that Getz will offensively outpreform our Stupendous CF Platoon both this year and it will also be better for a young hitter to get as many PAs as possible, so it will benefit him and the Sox in the long-run, too.

whitem0nkey
03-31-2009, 12:37 PM
How much a difference is there between those guys hitting 9 or 1? If they hit 9, we will have a different leadoff or #2 hitter who has an OBP lower than optimal for that job. I just don't see why some people are so riled up about this. Someone had to hit leadoff. It was going to be someone with an OBP lower than some folks would like. The only guys we have with a high OBP were never going to lead off.

Lots of anger...lots of emotion...and no better options to either play the spot or hit. There's really no significant difference in the expected productivity of any of these guys we are talking about for 9/1/2/7 despite all the posturing.

I just don't see how anyone thinks there is a measurable difference in the outcome from having a Wise/BA platoon, 162 games of Wise, Getz or Ramirez leading off. Someone has to hit 9. Someone has to hit #1. Someone has to hit #2. Someone has to fill in a spot at the bottom half of the order. Who hits where, providing we don't do something catastrophicly stupid like hitting Thome #1 or something like that, when we are probably talking about 9, 1, 2 and 7 (some combination or 2B, CF, SS and C)...really...end of the day...what's the difference?

another thing I think your missing is every spot you move down you will loose 2% of at bats per slot.

the diff between hitting 1st and hitting 9th is loosing 16% ABs.

jabrch
03-31-2009, 12:47 PM
Fair enough, I think we're arguing the same thing except maybe I'm a bit higher on Getz; that or I think Anderson and Wise totally suck. At any rate, I am willing to believe that Getz will offensively outpreform our Stupendous CF Platoon both this year and it will also be better for a young hitter to get as many PAs as possible, so it will benefit him and the Sox in the long-run, too.


Yeah...I just have no idea how any of these guys will perform. I really don't. I'm hoping BA is better than he has been in the past. I'm hoping Wise can be more effective never seeing a LHP. I'm hoping that Getz can be effective at the major league level. But it is all hope - as I have seen no evidence that proves anything to me past idle speculation and I am not going to get all riled up over that.

In a perfect world, BA comes out and hits .260/.320/.450 and earns the job full time. Or Wise hits .280/.340/.460. Or Getz hits .280/.350/.400....but I can pull made up numbers out of my ass all day and it won't matter. That's the same thing as projecting what any of these guys will do. There are too many ? and not enough answers to be sure of anything in my eyes.

jabrch
03-31-2009, 12:56 PM
another thing I think your missing is every spot you move down you will loose 2% of at bats per slot.

the diff between hitting 1st and hitting 9th is loosing 16% ABs.

That's true...so take the 162 PA (worst case) and multiply it by whatever the expected obp is of Player A. Subtract is from that same calculation for player B. You get somewhere in the neighborhood of 3.25 times on base per year. Crudely - OC scored 39% of his times on base last year. It's assinine math - but what's the real difference between BA/Wise and Getz/Alexei? None of these guys are such great hitters that there will be an impact of more than a handful of runs over a season.

If we had a real leadoff hitter - someone who could hit, get on base, and doesn't have a ton of power, and we hit him 9 instead of Wise/BA/Getz, then I'd understand... But in this case, I don't.

Tragg
03-31-2009, 12:58 PM
I'd like Alexei first and AJ second; that would prevent wasteful bunting in front of power hitters.

haganaga
03-31-2009, 01:17 PM
A.J. should not be hitting second. That's ridiculous. And, it was ridiculous last year,too.

The best team and lineup is this:

Getz 2B
Ramirez SS
Quentin RF
Thome DH
Dye RF
Konerko 1B
A. J. C
Fields 3B
Anderson CF

I would plug the subs in at the same spots in the lineup. When Betemit plays 1B bat him 6th or 8th when he plays 3rd. Lillibridge should bat first or second when he plays. Wise should bat 9th when he subs for Anderson.

Create some stability in the lineup.
This gets my vote.

everafan
03-31-2009, 01:47 PM
Getz 2B
Ramirez SS
Quentin RF
Thome DH
Dye RF
Konerko 1B
A. J. C
Fields 3B
Anderson CF

That's been my lineup for a couple weeks now.

SOXfnNlansing
03-31-2009, 02:14 PM
A.J. should not be hitting second. That's ridiculous. And, it was ridiculous last year,too.

The best team and lineup is this:

Getz 2B
Ramirez SS
Quentin RF
Thome DH
Dye RF
Konerko 1B
A. J. C
Fields 3B
Anderson CF

I would plug the subs in at the same spots in the lineup. When Betemit plays 1B bat him 6th or 8th when he plays 3rd. Lillibridge should bat first or second when he plays. Wise should bat 9th when he subs for Anderson.

Create some stability in the lineup.

I like your idea

sunofgold
03-31-2009, 03:22 PM
I don't want Getz to leadoff or bat 2nd yet. We don't even know if he is going to stick. I hope that he does. Let him get his feet wet.

I don't want to place AJ in the second hole. But, really there is nobody else right now. AJ takes some pitches, can hit with two strikes, moves runners over. Does some of the small things that won't show up the stats.

I am thinking that Alexei is going to be better this year than last. I would rather that he has the extra at bats. Not Wise or Anderson. Your leadoff guy can have power (like Grady Sizemore).

Also, he did have 13 stolen bases last year (caught 9 times though). At least with his speed, the pitcher will have to keep an eye on him when he is on the bases. You can do hit and run with Alexei on base and AJ at the plate.

Alexei doesn't walk much but did have overall .317 OBP. No reason that he cannot improve on that number.

whitesox901
03-31-2009, 03:35 PM
2B Getz
C Pierzynski
LF Quentin
RF Dye
DH Thome
1B Konerko
SS Ramirez
3B Fields
CF Anderson

russ99
03-31-2009, 03:40 PM
Yeah...I just have no idea how any of these guys will perform. I really don't. I'm hoping BA is better than he has been in the past. I'm hoping Wise can be more effective never seeing a LHP. I'm hoping that Getz can be effective at the major league level. But it is all hope - as I have seen no evidence that proves anything to me past idle speculation and I am not going to get all riled up over that.

In a perfect world, BA comes out and hits .260/.320/.450 and earns the job full time. Or Wise hits .280/.340/.460. Or Getz hits .280/.350/.400....but I can pull made up numbers out of my ass all day and it won't matter. That's the same thing as projecting what any of these guys will do. There are too many ? and not enough answers to be sure of anything in my eyes.

I have much bigger concerns about Getz and Fields being able to shoulder the job both at the plate and in the field to worry about these two guys. And in a perfect world, I can hit .260 for the Sox, but I don't think that's gonna happen for either me or BA.

I just hope one of them does a decent job. Though it they don't, maybe it's better since Kenny will then be forced to do something about it, finally.

And...

CF Wise
C Pierzynski
LF Quentin
RF Dye
DH Thome
1B Konerko
SS Ramirez
3B Fields
2B Getz

...will be fine for right now.

Daver
03-31-2009, 03:51 PM
Whatever the line up is, they better score a ton of runs.

cards press box
03-31-2009, 03:52 PM
How about this lineup:

1. Alexei
2. Getz
3. Quentin
4. Thome
5. Dye (or Konerko)
6. AJ
7. Konerko (or Dye)
8. Fields
9. Anderson/Wise

I know Alexei doesn't walk a lot but he has speed and would see some fastballs in the leadoff spot. I put Dye (or Konerko) 5th and Konerko (or Dye) 7th so that the lineup would alternate righties and lefties through the top 7 positions in the order.

35th and Shields
03-31-2009, 03:52 PM
2B Getz
C Pierzynski
LF Quentin
RF Dye
DH Thome
1B Konerko
SS Ramirez
3B Fields
CF Anderson

I've never been a fan of a.j. hitting second. Last year we really had no one else but to plug in the 2 hole after OC had to move to leadoff and we settled with a.j., but now we've got a young guy named Chris Getz who's got potential to a very solid 2 hitter. He's proven he can control bat exceptionally well and get on base at a decent clip in a limited sample size. For those who say he's proven nothing to bat second, who else in our lineup has proven that they can?

As far as the leadoff spot, let's face it. We won't have a good leadoff hitter.

CLR01
03-31-2009, 03:56 PM
DH Thome
1B Konerko
CF Anderson
LF Quentin
RF Dye
C Pierzynski
SS Ramirez
2B Getz
3B Fields

35th and Shields
03-31-2009, 04:07 PM
How about this lineup:

1. Alexei
2. Getz
3. Quentin
4. Thome
5. Dye (or Konerko)
6. AJ
7. Konerko (or Dye)
8. Fields
9. Anderson/Wise

I know Alexei doesn't walk a lot but he has speed and would see some fastballs in the leadoff spot. I put Dye (or Konerko) 5th and Konerko (or Dye) 7th so that the lineup would alternate righties and lefties through the top 7 positions in the order.

I like this lineup as well. The million dollar question is whether having Alexei leadoff will lead to more runs as opposed to having him in more RBI situations.

It also wouldn't be the worst idea to let your most talented pure hitter receive the most at-bats.

1989
03-31-2009, 04:13 PM
Getz 2B
Ramirez SS
Quentin RF
Thome DH
Dye RF
Konerko 1B
A. J. C
Fields 3B
Anderson CF

That's been my lineup for a couple weeks now.

This

JohnTucker0814
03-31-2009, 04:26 PM
I wonder if a major league manager in the situation Ozzie is in; where he doesn't really have "top of the order" hitters has considered the following?

1. Quentin
2. Dye
3. Konerko
4. Thome
5. Ramirez
6. Pierzynski
7. Fields
8. Wise
9. Getz

After the first inning it would be the same line up, but you'd be giving your top 4 hitters the most at bats... so what that the first inning they are leading off the game, on occasion they lead off an inning, what is the difference?

doublem23
03-31-2009, 04:54 PM
I think we've already talked about Quentin batting 1st is also a huge mistake.

LITTLE NELL
03-31-2009, 05:14 PM
A.J. should not be hitting second. That's ridiculous. And, it was ridiculous last year,too.

The best team and lineup is this:

Getz 2B
Ramirez SS
Quentin RF
Thome DH
Dye RF
Konerko 1B
A. J. C
Fields 3B
Anderson CF

I would plug the subs in at the same spots in the lineup. When Betemit plays 1B bat him 6th or 8th when he plays 3rd. Lillibridge should bat first or second when he plays. Wise should bat 9th when he subs for Anderson.

Create some stability in the lineup.
110% correct.

Tragg
03-31-2009, 05:27 PM
Getz 2B
Ramirez SS
Quentin RF
Thome DH
Dye RF
Konerko 1B
A. J. C
Fields 3B
Anderson CF

That's been my lineup for a couple weeks now.
That are you can reverse the top 2.
Instead we get a <.300 hitter obp who can't play defense; that's lead-off hitting, Ozzie-style.

HBaines03
03-31-2009, 05:28 PM
My lineup:

1. Getz
2. Wise/Anderson
3. Quentin
4. Dye
5. Thome
6. Konerko
7. Ramirez
8. Pierzynski
9. Fields

Wise/Anderson get better pitches (fastballs) to hit ahead of Quentin and Dye and make this lineup more potent if they produce. Fields to me is a very dangerous number 9 hitter. I think this makes a very well balanced lineup.

Bucky F. Dent
03-31-2009, 05:48 PM
A.J. should not be hitting second. That's ridiculous. And, it was ridiculous last year,too.

The best team and lineup is this:

Getz 2B
Ramirez SS
Quentin RF
Thome DH
Dye RF
Konerko 1B
A. J. C
Fields 3B
Anderson CF

I would plug the subs in at the same spots in the lineup. When Betemit plays 1B bat him 6th or 8th when he plays 3rd. Lillibridge should bat first or second when he plays. Wise should bat 9th when he subs for Anderson.

Create some stability in the lineup.


Sign me up.

mjmcend
03-31-2009, 06:52 PM
I don't want to place AJ in the second hole. But, really there is nobody else right now. AJ takes some pitches, can hit with two strikes, moves runners over. Does some of the small things that won't show up the stats.


Do you know what it is interesting? Those numbers do show up in stats if you look at the right ones.

As far as hitting with two strikes, A.J. hit .247/.275/.357. Terrible.

And as far as taking pitches, he saw 3.34 pitches per plate appearance which was the second lowest of the regulars. Ahead of only Ramirez at 3.27.

And people say stats are useless.

Daver
03-31-2009, 06:57 PM
Do you know what it is interesting? Those numbers do show up in stats if you look at the right ones.

As far as hitting with two strikes, A.J. hit .247/.275/.357. Terrible.

And as far as taking pitches, he saw 3.34 pitches per plate appearance which was the second lowest of the regulars. Ahead of only Ramirez at 3.27.

And people say stats are useless.

In this instance they are, because none of those things is why AJ was hitting second in the lineup, he was hitting second because he is the best baserunner on the team.

mjmcend
03-31-2009, 07:20 PM
In this instance they are, because none of those things is why AJ was hitting second in the lineup, he was hitting second because he is the best baserunner on the team.

I wasn't commenting on where he should or shouldn't hit in the lineup. I was just pointing out the stupidity of the cliche 'Does some of the small things that won't show up the stats.' Invariably those things show up in a box score if you look at the right ones.

Daver
03-31-2009, 07:22 PM
I wasn't commenting on where he should or shouldn't hit in the lineup. I was just pointing out the stupidity of the cliche 'Does some of the small things that won't show up the stats.' Invariably those things show up in a box score if you look at the right ones.

What do you call the stat that tracks taking an extra base on a lazy outfielder?

Brian26
03-31-2009, 09:54 PM
This thread makes it seem like the Podsednik-Iguchi era was about twenty years ago.

Brian26
03-31-2009, 09:56 PM
What do you call the stat that tracks taking an extra base on a lazy outfielder?

A stat that AL Central opponents are going to destroy us in once they see Wise in centerfield.

Frater Perdurabo
04-01-2009, 06:16 AM
A stat that AL Central opponents are going to destroy us in once they see Wise in centerfield.

You win the thread. :D:

Eddo144
04-01-2009, 08:36 AM
What do you call the stat that tracks taking an extra base on a lazy outfielder?
Doubles?