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Sockinchisox
03-30-2009, 01:47 PM
http://blogs.chicagosports.chicagotribune.com/sports_hardball/2009/03/owens-waived-by-white-sox.html

hi im skot
03-30-2009, 01:48 PM
I think "bittersweet" is the right word.

MsSoxVixen22
03-30-2009, 01:53 PM
I guess that's a good thing. Wise hits better than Owens. Are Wise and BA going to be platooning CF then?

soxinem1
03-30-2009, 01:54 PM
One smart move, one silly move.

At least BA can have the opportunity to take it if Wise hits/plays like a Minor League veteran.....

Unless of course Wise falls on his face and they acquire Mielky Cabrera from NYY or Gary Matthews, Jr. from LAAAAAAAA.....

Both scenarios can happen.

DickAllen72
03-30-2009, 01:54 PM
Wise starting CF + leadoff hitter = Sox 79 wins max.

ChiSoxFan81
03-30-2009, 01:54 PM
Wise starting CF + leadoff hitter = Sox 79 wins max.

By the All-Star break?

doublem23
03-30-2009, 01:56 PM
Wise starting CF + leadoff hitter = Sox 79 wins max.

Sounds a lot like what people were saying in March 2008.

DSpivack
03-30-2009, 01:56 PM
Bears sign WR Owens!

dwalteroo
03-30-2009, 01:56 PM
I'll say this....Owens handled the situation well this year. He may not have played great, but he said all the right things and at least appears to be taking this as professionally as he could. Good luck to Owens wherever he ends up.

white sox bill
03-30-2009, 01:58 PM
Let the Dewayne Wise Era begin!

SOX ADDICT '73
03-30-2009, 01:59 PM
I always know there's something brewing when I log onto WSI in the middle of a weekday afternoon and there's over 200 members already here.

white sox bill
03-30-2009, 02:00 PM
Let the Dewayne Wise Era begin!
Opps!

Let the Dewayne Wise era begin!

http://www.whitesoxinteractive.com/vbulletin/images/misc/progress.gif

Tragg
03-30-2009, 02:01 PM
Actually, the language said that Owens said he was waived and then the author added that it gives Wise CF and leadoff.
Gonzales may be jumping to a conclusion.

I think hitting at leadoff gives one better pitches to hit than does the 8 hole - I expect Anderson and probably even Wise to do okay there.

It's Wise's D that scares me, especially flanked by Quentin and Dye.

kittle42
03-30-2009, 02:01 PM
How bad do you have to be to lose the battle among Anderson/Wise/Owens?

Owens-bad!

SoxGirl4Life
03-30-2009, 02:01 PM
I always know there's something brewing when I log onto WSI in the middle of a weekday afternoon and there's over 200 members already here.


I'm the same way. Best place to get Sox news during the workday!

I'm glad about Owens, taking a wait-and-see attitude on Wise.

soxinem1
03-30-2009, 02:02 PM
The article says nothing about, just assumes, that Wise is the CF.

Let's hope Ozzie and KW have a moment of clarity and name BA the full-time CF for more than 30 AB's.

Marqhead
03-30-2009, 02:02 PM
Can't say I'm sad to see Owens go.

Now our CF debate has been reduced to two.

If Wise hits like he has been this spring, I can deal with his sub-par defense. I think a Wise-BA platoon was the best option all along.

Mendoza Line
03-30-2009, 02:03 PM
Wise starting CF + leadoff hitter = Sox 79 wins max.


I don't see why Wise's addition would be such a problem. Is he really that much of a defensive liability?

Offensively, I seem to recall he hit fairly well late in the season, and especially the playoffs. He may not have a lot of experience leading off, but if he can reach base consistently, would experience matter?

I guess I don't see how one spot in the batting order would result in a sub-500 record..

sox1970
03-30-2009, 02:05 PM
The article says nothing about, just assumes, that Wise is the CF.

Let's hope Ozzie and KW have a moment of clarity and name BA the full-time CF for more than 30 AB's.

Wise will start against righties. Anderson will start against lefties. Both will lead off. That is, until one of them plays themselves into a permanent thing, or they trade for someone....or Getz gets moved up.

DickAllen72
03-30-2009, 02:07 PM
Sounds a lot like what people were saying in March 2008.
It's not what I was saying last March. At that time, the Sox planned to have a veteran with a solid career OBP leading off. Why Ozzie insists on putting the team's worst hitter at leadoff thus giving him the most ABs is ridiculous.

If the Sox would just let Getz leadoff and put Ramirez second they'd be much better off even though I'd rather see Alexei further down to drive in more runs. Still, that's the best option. Put Anderson, who at least can play defense in CF and bat him ninth. Then I'd say the Sox will break .500 and even contend. If Anderson finally turns into a legit major leaguer or KW brings in a solid CFer, the Sox probably take the division.

Hopefully the Wise leading off/starting CF experiment doesn't last too long, putting them too far behind to catch up later on in the season.

SoxSpeed22
03-30-2009, 02:07 PM
Wise will start against righties. Anderson will start against lefties. Both will lead off. That is, until one of them plays themselves into a permanent thing, or they trade for someone....or Getz gets moved up.This sounds about right. I'm still hoping that we can find a guy at the trade deadline, but good luck to Wise.

DickAllen72
03-30-2009, 02:09 PM
I don't see why Wise's addition would be such a problem. Is he really that much of a defensive liability?

Offensively, I seem to recall he hit fairly well late in the season, and especially the playoffs.
Outside of that one home run, you recall incorrectly. And yes, his defense is below average for a major league centerfielder. No team that expects to be a serious contender should plan on strating Wise in CF and leading him off, giving him the most ABs in the lineup.

esbrechtel
03-30-2009, 02:14 PM
I called this at the begining of Spring Training (in one of the many CF threads) and was ridiculed that we would let Owens go for nothing....

It is really no surprise to me...

Good luck to Wise I liked him half way through the year until he decided to hit homeruns and started striking out...I think he can be a decent player for us if he is platooning with BA.

Tragg
03-30-2009, 02:15 PM
Hopefully the Wise leading off/starting CF experiment doesn't last too long, putting them too far behind to catch up later on in the season.
All that will happen is that he'll move to the 9 hole. Remember, Ozzie described Wise's spring as "Tremendous" when his spring obp was below .300. (which it was until Saturday)
Guillen's eye for talent remains strange.
I have a feeling he'll hit passably; it's his D that is going to hurt.

voodoochile
03-30-2009, 02:16 PM
Wise starting CF + leadoff hitter = Sox 79 wins max.

I'll take that bet.

TheDeacon
03-30-2009, 02:19 PM
Wise did have 5 rbi in the playoffs and seemed to surprise with clutch hits. His D is fair at best, and I seem to remember obvious fear of the wall...or am I imagining that?

BadBobbyJenks
03-30-2009, 02:20 PM
I'll take that bet.

Go to Vegas that is exactly the line.

Thome25
03-30-2009, 02:25 PM
I always know there's something brewing when I log onto WSI in the middle of a weekday afternoon and there's over 200 members already here.

I do the same thing!!!.......When I see a ton of members on here I say to myself...."Uh Oh what did the Sox do now?".

Sargeant79
03-30-2009, 02:26 PM
Wise starting CF + leadoff hitter = Sox 79 wins max.

Only if you had them pegged for 80-81 wins otherwise. While I wouldn't be happy about Wise getting more than 300 ABs this upcoming season, he isn't going to be the reason the Sox don't win the division. If they miss the playoffs, it will be because their pitching failed them.

Noneck
03-30-2009, 02:26 PM
Go to Vegas that is exactly the line.

But if they bet amongst themselves at least they save the juice.

dickallen15
03-30-2009, 02:26 PM
Wise did have 5 rbi in the playoffs and seemed to surprise with clutch hits. His D is fair at best, and I seem to remember obvious fear of the wall...or am I imagining that?

He finished the regular season in a 5-39 funk. I think his "clutchness" is very overrated.

Noneck
03-30-2009, 02:31 PM
He finished the regular season in a 5-39 funk. I think his "clutchness" is very overrated.

Yup this guy is a career minor leaguer, there is a reason for that. Roy Hobbs he's not.

AZChiSoxFan
03-30-2009, 02:35 PM
I have a question for those on the board who know more than I do (which is virtually all of you).

From looking at Wise's career stats and from looking at Getz's stats in ST and in Charlotte last year, I'm wondering why Wise will leadoff instead of Getz?

doublem23
03-30-2009, 02:37 PM
From looking at Wise's career stats and from looking at Getz's stats in ST and in Charlotte last year, I'm wondering why Wise will leadoff instead of Getz?

Ozzie does what his gut tells him to do, no matter how ridiculous it may seem.

That said, I think all of us expect Getz to be leading off by mid-May at the latest.

Sargeant79
03-30-2009, 02:37 PM
I have a question for those on the board who know more than I do (which is virtually all of you).

From looking at Wise's career stats and from looking at Getz's stats in ST and in Charlotte last year, I'm wondering why Wise will leadoff instead of Getz?

I wonder the same thing.

esbrechtel
03-30-2009, 02:40 PM
Ozzie does what his gut tells him to do, no matter how ridiculous it may seem.

That said, I think all of us expect Getz to be leading off by mid-May at the latest.

I agree 100 percent...

jabrch
03-30-2009, 02:41 PM
Sounds a lot like what people were saying in March 2008.


and 07...

and 06...

and 05...

and 04...


Any prognostication of failure based on which of these guys got the job that would have as large an impact as some will make this out to have is an intellectually weak overreaction to something that emotionally displeases some people. It is not based in fact. If someone is NOW calling this a 79 win team, and would have had it a 90 win team if BA played 162 games, is completely fooling themselves. So unless (s)he was saying something like that we'd have won 81 games with BA and 79 with Wise, then the point is silly.

Wise or BA - that's a very small (if any) swing either way over the course of 162 given what we have seen of these two over time.

esbrechtel
03-30-2009, 02:45 PM
and 07...
Any prognostication of failure based on which of these guys got the job that would have as large an impact as some will make this out to have is an intellectually weak overreaction to something that emotionally displeases some people. It is not based in fact. If someone is NOW calling this a 79 win team, and would have had it a 90 win team if BA played 162 games, is completely fooling themselves. So unless (s)he was saying something like that we'd have won 81 games with BA and 79 with Wise, then the point is silly.

Wise or BA - that's a very small (if any) swing either way over the course of 162 given what we have seen of these two over time.

exactly right...with Owens in the lineup does not automatically win us the division...

spawn
03-30-2009, 02:51 PM
and 07...

and 06...

and 05...

and 04...


Any prognostication of failure based on which of these guys got the job that would have as large an impact as some will make this out to have is an intellectually weak overreaction to something that emotionally displeases some people. It is not based in fact. If someone is NOW calling this a 79 win team, and would have had it a 90 win team if BA played 162 games, is completely fooling themselves. So unless (s)he was saying something like that we'd have won 81 games with BA and 79 with Wise, then the point is silly.

Wise or BA - that's a very small (if any) swing either way over the course of 162 given what we have seen of these two over time.
Word.

soxinem1
03-30-2009, 02:52 PM
I have a question for those on the board who know more than I do (which is virtually all of you).

From looking at Wise's career stats and from looking at Getz's stats in ST and in Charlotte last year, I'm wondering why Wise will leadoff instead of Getz?

Wise brings his veteran experience to the role.


I'll give the guy credit where credit is do. He was an extra player and a non-roster minor league journeyman brought up to fill a roster spot who delivered some big hits for a three week period. He also stole a few bases.

That versus Swisher's nearly guarantee ring ups (since the game ending HR against DET in extra innings) were about the only options at the time.

But once he started swinging for the fences, his avg. tumbled. His defense and arm are very questionable, and I doubt he can endure a full season.

Except for Rowand, KW and Ozzie have had some very questionable CF's out there for his entire tenure. From Valentin, Lofton, Everett, Erstad, Griffey, Swisher, and now Wise. Hmmm.

esbrechtel
03-30-2009, 02:54 PM
Ha, is the White Sox Center Field position going to end up like the Bears QB position?

SoxGirl4Life
03-30-2009, 03:03 PM
Ha, is the White Sox Center Field position going to end up like the Bears QB position?

Its exactly the same feeling. You're not excited, but its nothing personal, and well, there is a pulse.. and just don't look at everyone else's centerfielders...

oeo
03-30-2009, 03:05 PM
Its exactly the same feeling. You're not excited, but its nothing personal, and well, there is a pulse.. and just don't look at everyone else's centerfielders...

But it's not like good outfielders are hard to come by, we just haven't had one in CF for a few years. A good QB in a Bears jersey could realistically never happen.

JorgeFabregas
03-30-2009, 03:06 PM
and 07...

and 06...

and 05...

and 04...


Any prognostication of failure based on which of these guys got the job that would have as large an impact as some will make this out to have is an intellectually weak overreaction to something that emotionally displeases some people. It is not based in fact. If someone is NOW calling this a 79 win team, and would have had it a 90 win team if BA played 162 games, is completely fooling themselves. So unless (s)he was saying something like that we'd have won 81 games with BA and 79 with Wise, then the point is silly.

Wise or BA - that's a very small (if any) swing either way over the course of 162 given what we have seen of these two over time.
It's not just Wise vs. BA. The idea that any of our CF options should lead off is ridiculous.

SoxGirl4Life
03-30-2009, 03:12 PM
But it's not like good outfielders are hard to come by, we just haven't had one in CF for a few years. A good QB in a Bears jersey could realistically never happen.


Yeah, I agree. QB is exponentially tougher than CF.

jabrch
03-30-2009, 03:13 PM
It's not just Wise vs. BA. The idea that any of our CF options should lead off is ridiculous.


Well...propose to me who should lead off for this club that would turn a team that is otherwise projected to win >90 into a <79 win club?

I assume you can't.

BadBobbyJenks
03-30-2009, 03:14 PM
But if they bet amongst themselves at least they save the juice.

Good thinking.

Craig Grebeck
03-30-2009, 03:14 PM
Well...propose to me who should lead off for this club that would turn a team that is otherwise projected to win >90 into a <79 win club?

I assume you can't.
Well that's a pretty terrible argument. Putting Wise/Anderson there is inexcusable. I'm not saying the team will fail solely because of it, but what is the rationale in putting your two worst hitters (of regulars) in the position to receive the most at-bats?

thedudeabides
03-30-2009, 03:17 PM
But, I've been told that Owens was given the job and there would be no real spring training competition.

I agree with others that if Getz starts off strong he will be leading off before long.

whitesox901
03-30-2009, 03:22 PM
Wise starting CF + leadoff hitter = Sox 79 wins max.

:rolleyes:

Frater Perdurabo
03-30-2009, 03:23 PM
I feel badly for Owens and bad for the Sox overall. It would have been great if the Sox could have turned Owens into a leadoff hitter and center fielder. Alas, sometimes things just do not work out.

I hope both Wise and BA take advantage of this opportunity.

Craig Grebeck
03-30-2009, 03:24 PM
:rolleyes:
That's a rather dramatic way of stating the obvious -- DeWayne Wise is a terrible baseball player.

palehozenychicty
03-30-2009, 03:24 PM
Wise earned enough to play a little bit this season, but he's a career minor-leauger for a reason. I hope that Getz and Anderson start well, and put Brother Wise on the bench.

LITTLE NELL
03-30-2009, 03:24 PM
It drives me crazy that since Pods got hurt in 06 we have not had a real leadoff man. Owens was not the answer and Wise does'nt excite me. Please Kenny do something, if you don't,lets put Getz at leadoff and stick Anderson in CF and leave him there to win games with his glove.

voodoochile
03-30-2009, 03:29 PM
That's a rather dramatic way of stating the obvious -- DeWayne Wise is a terrible baseball player.
Awful, evil, stupid too boot. Not fit to clean the horse dung off the baseballs. Not worthy of a spot on any team's roster. He's pure freaking garbage. In a race with a man with one leg and one arm, take the guy not named Wise. Pathetic, weak and did I mention stupid?

Guess time will tell if he can handle the platoon situation. I'm actually a bit surprised. Owens actually had three hits the other day, raised his OBP to .348 and stole his third base. I figured this would go down to the wire, but leave it to OG to surprise me.

Craig Grebeck
03-30-2009, 03:31 PM
Awful, evil, stupid too boot. Not fit to clean the horse dung off the baseballs. Not worthy of a spot on any team's roster. He's pure freaking garbage. In a race with a man with one leg and one arm, take the guy not named Wise. Pathetic, weak and did I mention stupid?
He sucks at baseball. Am I being hyperbolic? Seriously. Look at his minor league record. Look at his major league record. It is glaringly obvious that Wise is a career minor leaguer with the skills of a fifth outfielder.

Perhaps I should say terrible major league player. I'm certain he's better than anyone on this board. Should he have even received the opportunity to compete for a starting job on a MLB club? Hell no.

Noneck
03-30-2009, 03:38 PM
It drives me crazy that since Pods got hurt in 06 we have not had a real leadoff man. Owens was not the answer and Wise does'nt excite me. Please Kenny do something, if you don't,lets put Getz at leadoff and stick Anderson in CF and leave him there to win games with his glove.

These are the dealt cards, no re-deal here, he will play them now, no other choice. This is stud not draw.

voodoochile
03-30-2009, 03:43 PM
He sucks at baseball. Am I being hyperbolic? Seriously. Look at his minor league record. Look at his major league record. It is glaringly obvious that Wise is a career minor leaguer with the skills of a fifth outfielder.

Perhaps I should say terrible major league player. I'm certain he's better than anyone on this board. Should he have even received the opportunity to compete for a starting job on a MLB club? Hell no.

Well time will tell this season if what we saw last year was strictly an aberration or if he's managed to find something that works for him against RHP. He obviously should never face LHP ever, but BA's already been named that starter, so it's not like that's a huge deal.

Should he leadoff? No, but hopefully inside of a month, Getz is and the two CF's are batting 9th.

Actually, here's hoping they both come out redhot and post a great line and never look back...:bandance:

asindc
03-30-2009, 03:45 PM
It drives me crazy that since Pods got hurt in 06 we have not had a real leadoff man. Owens was not the answer and Wise does'nt excite me. Please Kenny do something, if you don't,lets put Getz at leadoff and stick Anderson in CF and leave him there to win games with his glove.

I'm with you on that one. Hell, if we had a true leadoff last year, we probably would have won the pennant.

DirtySox
03-30-2009, 03:46 PM
http://twitter.com/cst_sox/statuses/1419638743

http://www.suntimes.com/sports/baseball/whitesox/1502539,sox-blog-owens-033009.article

Cowley says that Wise is the starter, and it's not a platoon situation for now.

cards press box
03-30-2009, 03:49 PM
That's a rather dramatic way of stating the obvious -- DeWayne Wise is a terrible baseball player.

I had hoped for the Sox to upgrade CF. That hasn't happened yet and I do believe that CF is the weak link in the Sox lineup.

That said, Wise's splits last year showed, as one would expect, that he did better (.261) against righties than he did against lefties (.143). To be fair, Wise had only 14 at bats against lefties last year but he does seem suited to a platoon role, at most. I still think that Wise is best suited to be an extra outfielder/pinch hitter/pinch runner coming off the bench.

The Sox may yet deal for a CF. Would Melky Cabrera, Gary Matthews, Jr., Josh Anderson or Juan Pierre help the Sox more than the current Wise/Brian Anderson platoon? What would the Sox have to deal to get one of these players?

Daver
03-30-2009, 03:51 PM
I hope that the starting rotation becomes SO pitchers before opening day, because the White Sox may have the worst outfield in all of baseball.

Britt Burns
03-30-2009, 03:56 PM
Cowley says that that Wise is the starter, and it's not a platoon situation for now.

Yuck. He hits .179 career against leftys (not that he hits right handers that much better).

jamesdiego
03-30-2009, 03:56 PM
For all the Anderson fan boys here, Dewayne Wise does not suck at baseball. He's not great or very good, but he's good enough to get the job done. I'd just prefer him at the bottom of the order with Getz at leadoff.

Yes, Wise is a career minor leaguer, but he changed his swing before last season and then racked at Charlotte with .319 .402(BA/OBP). Which got him called up to the Sox. And for those who say he wasn't clutch, he hit .286 with 2 outs/RISP average, and with late & close hit .389 in Chicago. He also batted .286 in the playoffs for us.

In the regular season he batted .288 until Ozzie moved him into leadoff in the dreadfull series up in Minny where he put up a big 0/12. Which most definately affected him, and he batted .080 the rest of the regular season. But it was only 8 games, that he played bad, and was able to trun it around in the payofffs. The most awful player in history, don't be foolish people.

JorgeFabregas
03-30-2009, 04:00 PM
Well...propose to me who should lead off for this club that would turn a team that is otherwise projected to win >90 into a <79 win club?

I assume you can't.
I'm not sure that the original poster specified what their win total would otherwise be, but I am of the opinion that a team with Wise leading off and starting 80% of the time vs. Getz leading off and Anderson starting 80% of the time is a difference of 4 or 5 wins.

SoxGirl4Life
03-30-2009, 04:00 PM
http://twitter.com/cst_sox/statuses/1419638743

Cowley says that that Wise is the starter, and it's not a platoon situation for now.


oh no. This won't go over well.

DirtySox
03-30-2009, 04:01 PM
Yuck. He hits .179 career against leftys (not that he hits right handers that much better).

I'm hoping that Cowley is just misinformed. If not, I'm afraid of the inevitable BA Backlash threads.

kittle42
03-30-2009, 04:02 PM
But, I've been told that Owens was given the job and there would be no real spring training competition.

I agree with others that if Getz starts off strong he will be leading off before long.

Dankerific, et al were right about one thing...Owens has had everything handed to him, including a pink slip!

thedudeabides
03-30-2009, 04:09 PM
I had hoped for the Sox to upgrade CF. That hasn't happened yet and I do believe that CF is the weak link in the Sox lineup.

That said, Wise's splits last year showed, as one would expect, that he did better (.261) against righties than he did against lefties (.143). To be fair, Wise had only 14 at bats against lefties last year but he does seem suited to a platoon role, at most. I still think that Wise is best suited to be an extra outfielder/pinch hitter/pinch runner coming off the bench.

The Sox may yet deal for a CF. Would Melky Cabrera, Gary Matthews, Jr., Josh Anderson or Juan Pierre help the Sox more than the current Wise/Brian Anderson platoon? What would the Sox have to deal to get one of these players?

Josh Anderson was traded to the Tigers today.

http://atlanta.braves.mlb.com/news/article.jsp?ymd=20090330&content_id=4090142&vkey=news_atl&fext=.jsp&c_id=atl

soltrain21
03-30-2009, 04:17 PM
So Wise was so fantastic that it's not even a platoon situation anymore? Well, that is pretty ****ty.

Craig Grebeck
03-30-2009, 04:18 PM
I had hoped for the Sox to upgrade CF. That hasn't happened yet and I do believe that CF is the weak link in the Sox lineup.

That said, Wise's splits last year showed, as one would expect, that he did better (.261) against righties than he did against lefties (.143). To be fair, Wise had only 14 at bats against lefties last year but he does seem suited to a platoon role, at most. I still think that Wise is best suited to be an extra outfielder/pinch hitter/pinch runner coming off the bench.

The Sox may yet deal for a CF. Would Melky Cabrera, Gary Matthews, Jr., Josh Anderson or Juan Pierre help the Sox more than the current Wise/Brian Anderson platoon? What would the Sox have to deal to get one of these players?
Small sample size. He has sucked his entire career.

For all the Anderson fan boys here, Dewayne Wise does not suck at baseball. He's not great or very good, but he's good enough to get the job done. I'd just prefer him at the bottom of the order with Getz at leadoff.

Yes, Wise is a career minor leaguer, but he changed his swing before last season and then racked at Charlotte with .319 .402(BA/OBP). Which got him called up to the Sox. And for those who say he wasn't clutch, he hit .286 with 2 outs/RISP average, and with late & close hit .389 in Chicago. He also batted .286 in the playoffs for us.

In the regular season he batted .288 until Ozzie moved him into leadoff in the dreadfull series up in Minny where he put up a big 0/12. Which most definately affected him, and he batted .080 the rest of the regular season. But it was only 8 games, that he played bad, and was able to trun it around in the payofffs. The most awful player in history, don't be foolish people.
Small sample size. He has sucked his entire career.

oh no. This won't go over well.
Rightfully so.

raven1
03-30-2009, 04:21 PM
Scott Podsednik was a career minor leaguer and marginal center fielder until the Brewers gave him a chance. That worked out pretty well, hopefully this guy is another late bloomer with a good year or two in him. I think he has alot more upside than people give him credit for, and if not then BA will get his chance soon.

Craig Grebeck
03-30-2009, 04:22 PM
Scott Podsednik was a career minor leaguer and marginal center fielder until the Brewers gave him a chance. That worked out pretty well, hopefully this guy is another late bloomer with a good year or two in him. I think he has alot more upside than people give him credit for, and if not then BA will get his chance soon.
Please do some research before posting.

hi im skot
03-30-2009, 04:22 PM
I'm with you on that one. Hell, if we had a true leadoff last year, we probably would have won the pennant.

C'mon...Cabrera was more than serviceable.

Quentin's injury and Vazquez's inability to pitch well were our biggest problems down the stretch.

Even with someone like Podsednik in his "prime" last year, the Sox don't go past the first round.

SoxFan78
03-30-2009, 04:28 PM
Jerry Owens was given plenty of chances to take the spot, he just didn't utilize those chances. Wise earned his spot to play in CF, so us fans just have to make due.

kittle42
03-30-2009, 04:29 PM
Don't say I don't give both sides of the story...

http://www.rotoworld.com/content/playerpages/player_main.aspx?sport=MLB&id=2994

Anderson fans unite, gather torches, and march!

thomas35forever
03-30-2009, 04:30 PM
I get this feeling that Owens would have been nothing more than deadwood on the roster. The Sox made the right call by going with Wise. Hopefully, Owens will find a place to give his career a good bump.

DirtySox
03-30-2009, 04:31 PM
Don't say I don't give both sides of the story...

http://www.rotoworld.com/content/playerpages/player_main.aspx?sport=MLB&id=2994

Anderson fans unite, gather torches, and march!


Lol. I had saw that as well. Sounds like something I've read here many many times before.

FedEx227
03-30-2009, 04:39 PM
Lol. I had saw that as well. Sounds like something I've read here many many times before.

Hmmm, weird, huh?

But the thoughts of handing a 31-year old 5th outfielder journeyman the reigns to the leadoff and centerfield job because he hit a grand-slam last year and did well in the playoffs really has me pumped for this White Sox season.

Why have we already abandoned the platoon idea?

soltrain21
03-30-2009, 04:41 PM
Lol. I had saw that as well. Sounds like something I've read here many many times before.

Wonder why that is...

UofCSoxFan
03-30-2009, 04:41 PM
Great...now we get to listen to all the BA crybabies again.

I'm not a huge Wise fan, but the fact that he spent a lot of time in the minors doesn't automatically mean he sucks. Based on performance last year in the majors and based on spring training, Wise beat out Anderson...fair and simple. It's rare but I've heard some major league players say they thought it was easier to hit in the majors than in AAA for the following reasons: 1) You have better lighting in major league parks to see the ball 2) You face pitchers with better control--they have better stuff but for freer swingers it can beneficial to face a pitcher that throws more strikes 3) You get in a better routine at the major league level.

I personally think the higher quality pitchers counteract these effects, but it isn't that shocking that some players would say they feel more comfortable in the majors.

Let's see what Wise does before writing him off based on performance with other teams. I rather look at what he has done an above average job for this team in the last year and 3 months because the other options have done even less.

NLaloosh
03-30-2009, 04:41 PM
Hey, DeWayne Wise's numbers aren't that bad.

He's a career .259 hitter with a .309 OBP !

Oh wait, those are his career minor league numbers.

Oh, ****.

UofCSoxFan
03-30-2009, 04:43 PM
Hey, DeWayne Wise's numbers aren't that bad.

He's a career .259 hitter with a .309 OBP !

Oh wait, those are his career minor league numbers.

Oh, ****.

Good thing he's not playing minor league baseball then :redneck

DaveFeelsRight
03-30-2009, 04:46 PM
even though he sucks, i feel bad for the guy

FedEx227
03-30-2009, 04:50 PM
Hey, DeWayne Wise's numbers aren't that bad.

He's a career .259 hitter with a .309 OBP !

Oh wait, those are his career minor league numbers.

Oh, ****.

LEADOFF!

He's kind of fast!

OZZIEBALL!11!!!!!

hi im skot
03-30-2009, 04:51 PM
even though he sucks, i feel bad for the guy

:lol:

I assume you're talking about Owens, but this could apply to any of our CF options.

kittle42
03-30-2009, 04:55 PM
There is absolutely zero defense to give Wise the job full-time over a platoon. It's typical Ozzie, and his idea of what the leadoff position entails. Just silliness.

FedEx227
03-30-2009, 04:57 PM
There is absolutely zero defense to give Wise the job full-time over a platoon. It's typical Ozzie, and his idea of what the leadoff position entails. Just silliness.

That's my only beef. I understand I'm just a dirty illogical FOBA but it makes no sense not to try out a platoon or put Getz at leadoff. Wise IS NOT a leadoff hitter, he's sorta quick... that's IT.

Pear-Zin-Ski
03-30-2009, 05:04 PM
Remember last year how Alexei started in CF on Opening Day? That experiment didn't last long...when things switched up and he moved into the infield well...you know how his season went last year....

The roster on Opening Day will change throughout the season and I'm sure the team will either improve or suprise us greatly!

voodoochile
03-30-2009, 05:08 PM
The only person reporting this so far as not a platoon is Cowley. I have zero respect for his ability to get a story right the first time. When Ozzie says it or when the first opponent LHP comes and BA isn't starting then I'll believe it.

For the record, if so, I think Ozzie is nuts. Wise should NOT be facing LHP regularly. Hopefully at the most this is Ozzie trying to light a fire under BA. I still think Getz will be leading off eventually. Ozzie probably just doesn't want to hand him the job off the bat.

I have to believe this is a motivational ploy for the most part because starting Wise against LHP is nuts...

Lip Man 1
03-30-2009, 05:09 PM
This is interesting to say the least. My guess like someone already said, is that this is going to be 'in flux' and will change throughout the season...especially come the trading deadline.

Lip

Soxfest
03-30-2009, 05:13 PM
Wise is a long way from a everyday MLB player........KW should of done a better job over the winter no excuses!:angry:

kittle42
03-30-2009, 05:20 PM
Wise is a long way from a everyday MLB player........KW should of done a better job over the winter no excuses!:angry:

"Should have," and yes, it has been an unfilled hole for the last two offseasons now.

WhiteSox5187
03-30-2009, 05:25 PM
"Should have," and yes, it has been an unfilled hole for the last two offseasons now.
To be fair, it's a hard hole to fill. But Kenny hasn't really gone nuts trying to fill it either.

I can only hope that like Alexei in CF or Quentin starting on the bench last year, this experiment does not last long.

MtGrnwdSoxFan
03-30-2009, 05:31 PM
Wise is a long way from a everyday MLB player........KW should of done a better job over the winter no excuses!:angry:

Honestly, who was available that was worth what we could have traded/signed him for?

Pierre? No thanks. He has an arm that makes Owens' look like Ichiro's. His hitting and speed is also declining.

Matthews Jr.? Uh, no. Numbers steadily declining since he signed that huge contract. Red flag.

Figgins? Good hitter/baserunner, but isn't he more of a infielder? Also, how much would the Angels have wanted for him? He wouldn't come cheap, that's for sure.

There were no notable CFs in the market this year. Nothing where we would have gotten our money's worth.

I'm not saying that this is the best decision, but what other possible avenues could we have taken?

Taliesinrk
03-30-2009, 05:42 PM
If true, this is ridiculous. If not, Cowley's a jackass. Ramirez got hurt today (apparently not seriously), our "4th starter" just gave up 7 ERs in 4 IP, and Ozzie has a huge vendetta against BA. Again - time will tell - but there's no way this shouldn't be a platoon --> worst-case scenario for BA. If they give it straight up to Wise, they should just trade BA, because clearly, they have no intent to use him. I mean if not now, then when???

I know, I'm overreacting here, but this is stupid.

sunofgold
03-30-2009, 05:43 PM
? Minor league contract? It would suck if got better with a new team.

southsideirish71
03-30-2009, 05:43 PM
Honestly, who was available that was worth what we could have traded/signed him for?

Pierre? No thanks. He has an arm that makes Owens' look like Ichiro's. His hitting and speed is also declining.

Matthews Jr.? Uh, no. Numbers steadily declining since he signed that huge contract. Red flag.

Figgins? Good hitter/baserunner, but isn't he more of a infielder? Also, how much would the Angels have wanted for him? He wouldn't come cheap, that's for sure.

There were no notable CFs in the market this year. Nothing where we would have gotten our money's worth.

I'm not saying that this is the best decision, but what other possible avenues could we have taken?

Well Josh Anderson was available up until today.

jabrch
03-30-2009, 05:48 PM
Well Josh Anderson was available up until today.


Is he a known answer to be better than our options? I'm not so sure he is...

DSpivack
03-30-2009, 05:55 PM
Is he a known answer to be better than our options? I'm not so sure he is...

He did well briefly for the Braves last year, and his track record/minors numbers are much better than BA or Wise.

MtGrnwdSoxFan
03-30-2009, 05:57 PM
Is he a known answer to be better than our options? I'm not so sure he is...

Looking at his stats from last year and projecting them over a full season, he seems like a slightly better version of Corey Patterson...better AVG (.290), but still a .330-ish OBP (he would project to about 30 walks over the season) and about 160 K's...yikes.

I don't know how his defense is, so if anyone can fill me in...but looking at this projection, he may be slightly better than what we have now, but those 160 K's scare me.

Taliesinrk
03-30-2009, 06:04 PM
Looking at his stats from last year and projecting them over a full season, he seems like a slightly better version of Corey Patterson...better AVG (.290), but still a .330-ish OBP (he would project to about 30 walks over the season) and about 160 K's...yikes.

I don't know how his defense is, so if anyone can fill me in...but looking at this projection, he may be slightly better than what we have now, but those 160 K's scare me.

Not a large enough sample size... look at his AAA numbers for Ks. He cut down (it looked like) on them. I don't think he'd put up 160Ks.

MtGrnwdSoxFan
03-30-2009, 06:11 PM
Not a large enough sample size... look at his AAA numbers for Ks. He cut down (it looked like) on them. I don't think he'd put up 160Ks.

I was just projecting, as that's all we really can do at this point. However, he will be 27 this season, so he's not much younger than Wise, and the same age as BA. If he was 22, I'd be more optimistic about him, but I don't really see how he would help the Sox if he came here.

What's Anderson's role going to be on the Tigers? 4th OF?

russ99
03-30-2009, 06:19 PM
Well as an Owens backer I'm disappointed, but I can't say I didn't see it coming.

Good luck to Jerry on whichever team claims him. And believe it, someone will.

And Wise has hit well enough both last year and this spring to warrant a shot.

JB98
03-30-2009, 06:23 PM
I don't mind Wise getting a shot, given the options at hand.

I just don't understand why he has to hit leadoff. Since this CF battle has been something of a "tallest midget" contest, the winner should be batting ninth, not first.

UofCSoxFan
03-30-2009, 06:27 PM
You know its a sign of just how tough the economy is when Jerry Owens finds himself unemployed.

In other news, upon word that Brian Anderson would be relegated to a fourth outfielder role, the stock market fell 250 points.

MtGrnwdSoxFan
03-30-2009, 06:31 PM
I just don't understand why he has to hit leadoff. Since this CF battle has been something of a "tallest midget" contest, the winner should be batting ninth, not first.

I agree. I think Getz would be the best bet to adequately fill in the lead-off spot, but I understand not wanting to put a rookie in there right out of the gate. Maybe Ozzie just wants a vet there, and while Wise didn't exactly light the world on fire during his leadoff trial, he's, for better or worse, the best option we have right now.

Maybe in late May or early June, if Getz is hitting well and Wise isn't, then there should be no excuses for not putting Getz there at leadoff.

JB98
03-30-2009, 06:32 PM
I agree. I think Getz would be the best bet to adequately fill in the lead-off spot, but I understand not wanting to put a rookie in there right out of the gate. Maybe Ozzie just wants a vet there, and while Wise didn't exactly light the world on fire during his leadoff trial, he's, for better or worse, the best option we have right now.

Maybe in late May or early June, if Getz is hitting well and Wise isn't, then there should be no excuses for not putting Getz there at leadoff.

I really feel Ramirez is our best option at leadoff. But I guess that's another thread.

Hopefully, Wise will play well, and all our concerns will melt away. Hopefully, Anderson plays well when he's out there.

russ99
03-30-2009, 06:33 PM
I agree. I think Getz would be the best bet to adequately fill in the lead-off spot, but I understand not wanting to put a rookie in there right out of the gate. Maybe Ozzie just wants a vet there, and while Wise didn't exactly light the world on fire during his leadoff trial, he's, for better or worse, the best option we have right now.

Maybe in late May or early June, if Getz is hitting well and Wise isn't, then there should be no excuses for not putting Getz there at leadoff.

Agree. And if neither Getz or Wise/Anderson is hitting well, then why not try Alexei. No team is the same on opening day as it is at the end of the year, so thing can change.

Dibbs
03-30-2009, 06:36 PM
Good. Now I move on to praying for Wise to be gone.

soxinem1
03-30-2009, 06:47 PM
You know its a sign of just how tough the economy is when Jerry Owens finds himself unemployed.

In other news, upon word that Brian Anderson would be relegated to a fourth outfielder role, the stock market fell 250 points.

http://www.minorleaguenews.com/graphics/baseball/Graphics/2004FAB50/players/Anderson.jpg

'I had nothing to do with that, I do not work for GM or Chrysler!!'

MtGrnwdSoxFan
03-30-2009, 06:48 PM
I really feel Ramirez is our best option at leadoff. But I guess that's another thread.

Hopefully, Wise will play well, and all our concerns will melt away. Hopefully, Anderson plays well when he's out there.

He's probably the fastest player on the team and can hit for a good average (.290), but his OBP is only .027 higher (.317; had only 18 walks in 480 official ABs) and that is just too low for a leadoff hitter. He's also too impatient to be a leadoff hitter. He's got a slugger's skillset in a speedster's body.

I still feel that he's better suited for the 6 hole, because he can drive in runs with the best of them if given the opportunity. I can see him driving in around 80-90 this season if he hits in the 6 spot consistently. It's just a bonus that he happens to be fast.

I mean, if it came down to it, I wouldn't mind seeing Ramirez in the leadoff spot, but I just don't think it would be pretty.

I agree with your second statement 100%, however.

JB98
03-30-2009, 06:52 PM
He's probably the fastest player on the team and can hit for a good average (.290), but his OBP is only .027 higher (.317) and that is just too low for a leadoff hitter. He's got a slugger's skillset in a speedster's body.

I still feel that he's better suited for the 6 hole, because he can drive in runs with the best of them. I can see him driving in around 80-90 this season if he hits in the 6 spot consistently.

I agree with your second statement 100%, however.

I have my doubts that Wise can post even a .317 OBP from the leadoff spot. Ramirez certainly isn't ideal either, but the only other option is a rookie, Getz.

Really, I just think the Wise/Anderson duo should be batting ninth. I'd be open to any other option for the leadoff spot. But since the Sox are going with Wise/Anderson, I hope it works.

FedEx227
03-30-2009, 06:53 PM
Plus Ramirez does not take a lot of pitches, nor should he. He goes first pitch swinging because he has the power to do so, you take that out putting him in the leadoff role unless you really want to go with the Soriano route.

sox1970
03-30-2009, 06:56 PM
http://twitter.com/cst_sox/status/1420804849

So Getz will be the lead off guy by May 1st.

DirtySox
03-30-2009, 07:00 PM
Revolving door leadoff hitter. Sweet!

MtGrnwdSoxFan
03-30-2009, 07:02 PM
I have my doubts that Wise can post even a .317 OBP from the leadoff spot. Ramirez certainly isn't ideal either, but the only other option is a rookie, Getz.

...and honestly, I think Getz IS the best option. I just can see why they won't put him there from the outset. I'm just hoping that Wise can hold down the fort long enough for Getz to get acclimated to MLB pitching (and, of course, that Getz can translate his ST numbers to the regular season).

If Getz and Wise struggle, then I honestly see no other recourse than to make a trade for a leadoff-caliber CF.

JB98
03-30-2009, 07:05 PM
Plus Ramirez does not take a lot of pitches, nor should he. He goes first pitch swinging because he has the power to do so, you take that out putting him in the leadoff role unless you really want to go with the Soriano route.

I would never ask Ramirez to change his approach, even though I'm arguing that he's the best option to hit leadoff.

If he sees a first-pitch fastball, he should take an aggressive hack, regardless of where he is hitting in the batting order.

Lillian
03-30-2009, 07:19 PM
For all the Anderson fan boys here, Dewayne Wise does not suck at baseball. He's not great or very good, but he's good enough to get the job done. I'd just prefer him at the bottom of the order with Getz at leadoff.

Yes, Wise is a career minor leaguer, but he changed his swing before last season and then racked at Charlotte with .319 .402(BA/OBP). Which got him called up to the Sox. And for those who say he wasn't clutch, he hit .286 with 2 outs/RISP average, and with late & close hit .389 in Chicago. He also batted .286 in the playoffs for us.

In the regular season he batted .288 until Ozzie moved him into leadoff in the dreadfull series up in Minny where he put up a big 0/12. Which most definately affected him, and he batted .080 the rest of the regular season. But it was only 8 games, that he played bad, and was able to trun it around in the payofffs. The most awful player in history, don't be foolish people.

Thank you for setting the record straight. That is an objective and accurate account of his recent history.

Domeshot17
03-30-2009, 07:31 PM
At this point just trade Anderson so he can get a shot somewhere instead of yanking his chain. How many years can they honestly tell him you have a shot to start with an impressive spring and then not give it to him when has an impressive spring? Fine, we get it, Ozzie has him in the dog house, then just trade him.

kittle42
03-30-2009, 07:45 PM
At this point just trade Anderson so he can get a shot somewhere instead of yanking his chain. How many years can they honestly tell him you have a shot to start with an impressive spring and then not give it to him when has an impressive spring? Fine, we get it, Ozzie has him in the dog house, then just trade him.

While part of me wishes they did just to end the discussion in these parts, he is too valuable as a defensive replacement for a crappy defensive outfield to trade away for what would likely be a small return.

jamesdiego
03-30-2009, 07:46 PM
At this point just trade Anderson so he can get a shot somewhere instead of yanking his chain. How many years can they honestly tell him you have a shot to start with an impressive spring and then not give it to him when has an impressive spring? Fine, we get it, Ozzie has him in the dog house, then just trade him.


Merkin said Brian will platoon w/ Wise and hit lefties. And will be the defensive replacement late in games. Brian and his career .221 average did it to himself. Maybe if he played some winter ball to work on his hitting the past few yrs and put up some decent numbers. But Brian thinks he's too good for winter ball.

At least Wise has shown a turn around in hitting. If Brian out plays him in their platoon, he will get more at bats. The horror, I know.

JB98
03-30-2009, 07:51 PM
While part of me wishes they did just to end the discussion in these parts, he is too valuable as a defensive replacement for a crappy defensive outfield to trade away for what would likely be a small return.

I agree. Just because he's not starting doesn't mean he can't help us win.

DirtySox
03-30-2009, 07:52 PM
http://chicago.whitesox.mlb.com/news/article.jsp?ymd=20090330&content_id=4091800&vkey=news_cws&fext=.jsp&c_id=cws

This article says it isn't a traditional platoon, but that both players will play depending on the matchups. BA and Wise will face both righties and lefties. To what extent for each, who knows.

DickAllen72
03-30-2009, 08:01 PM
and 07...

and 06...

and 05...

and 04...


Any prognostication of failure based on which of these guys got the job that would have as large an impact as some will make this out to have is an intellectually weak overreaction to something that emotionally displeases some people. It is not based in fact. If someone is NOW calling this a 79 win team, and would have had it a 90 win team if BA played 162 games, is completely fooling themselves. So unless (s)he was saying something like that we'd have won 81 games with BA and 79 with Wise, then the point is silly.

If you would have bothered to read post# 20 you'd understand what I was saying.

If Wise plays the majority of games leading off and playing CF for the Sox this season, there's no way they win more than 79 games. I doubt KW and Ozzie will let that happen, but if they do it's 79 wins max, IMHO.
If they start BA in CF and bat him ninth where he belongs (BTW I'm not a FOBA but he's currently the best option they have at CF) with Getz and Ramirez at the top of the order, I see them breaking .500, and maybe contending depending on how things go around the rest of the division.

If Anderson surprises me and actually hits like a major league starter, OR if KW lands a legit good major league CFer, IMHO the Sox take the division.

But the part that bugs me the most about the Wise starting situation is the fact that it puts their worst hitter in a position to have the most ABs in the lineup. A minor league career OBP of .302 should not be what one looks for in a leadoff hitter. And his defense isn't too good either.

BleacherBandit
03-30-2009, 08:02 PM
Between Getz, Wise and Anderson, I don't think there really is a viable lead-off hitter. You'd have to believe that if one doesn't work, we'd have two other 'options'. I'm not going to worry that much.

Daver
03-30-2009, 08:04 PM
If Anderson surprises me and actually hits like a major league starter, OR if KW lands a legit good major league CFer, IMHO the Sox take the division.


With the starting rotation as it sits, and with a mediocre at best defensive team behind them, I highly doubt that this team will compete for the division.

champagne030
03-30-2009, 09:07 PM
Ozzie's contract is an albatross if Wise bats leadoff and plays CF against lefties. I know Ozzie is a dip****, but I'm not buying Cowley's story.

october23sp
03-30-2009, 09:11 PM
Ozzie's contract is an albatross if Wise bats leadoff and plays CF against lefties. I know Ozzie is a dip****, but I'm not buying Cowley's story.


Someone had to win the battle for position, why is Ozzie a dip**** exactly?

JB98
03-30-2009, 09:13 PM
Someone had to win the battle for position, why is Ozzie a dip**** exactly?

:popcorn:

Here come the conspiracy theories.

Daver
03-30-2009, 09:17 PM
Someone had to win the battle for position, why is Ozzie a dip**** exactly?

When given a choice between two players that can't hit, I always pick the one that should wear his glove on his head while he wanders around in CF.

delben91
03-30-2009, 09:20 PM
When given a choice between two players that can't hit, I always pick the one that should wear his glove on his head while he wanders around in CF.

Maybe he can be VP of the glove on the head club, with Carlos Lee as the Prez by virtue of being the modern era founding member.

Metalthrasher442
03-30-2009, 09:24 PM
For us to contend we have to have strong pitching. Brian Anderson can help our pitchers in the out field. Plain and simple. That leaves us to try BA and Getz at lead off see who does better. I mean what are the chances Colon will be a decent starter and healthy all season? Not very good. I honestly don't know if Contreras can do it either. Richard really needs to be able to step up. More than likely this will end up being a development year for our young guys.. alas 2007, probably more wins though.

HebrewHammer
03-30-2009, 09:32 PM
Where's the Jerry Owens Appreciation Thread???

The only thing that prevents me from smiling about Jerry Owens' release is that it means more Dewayne Wise. I realize we have little payroll flexibility, but there has to be a better option...somewhere.

Domeshot17
03-30-2009, 09:34 PM
Merkin said Brian will platoon w/ Wise and hit lefties. And will be the defensive replacement late in games. Brian and his career .221 average did it to himself. Maybe if he played some winter ball to work on his hitting the past few yrs and put up some decent numbers. But Brian thinks he's too good for winter ball.

At least Wise has shown a turn around in hitting. If Brian out plays him in their platoon, he will get more at bats. The horror, I know.

We'll see how it works out. But lets be real. We know how Ozzie is. He has one guy he absolutely loves (Wise) and one guy he absolutely hates (Anderson) who is really going to get the bulk of the load? And Brian IIRC has been at winter ball. One year he got sent home early because he got wretchedly sick and one year he couldn't go because he broke his wrist.

And as has been discussed to exhaustion, The bulk of Brian's career AB's came in his rookie year. Since then he has been relocated to pinch hitting and spot starts. for years since his rookie year he has been told have a good spring and you can win the job. The first year he beats out Grinderstad and Ozzie still gives Grinderstad the job, even though he can longer play CF. Then last year we bring in Swisher, who I loved as a pick up, and Tell swisher to play out of position in CF and hit out of position and lead off. Then this year we tell Brian to compete, Him and Wise have virtually identical offensive springs with Brian having the farrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr superior glove and Brian is on the pine again. We are giving guys like Fields and Getz the year to prove they belong, we need to do the same with Brian. If we just gave up on every kid who ever had a bad rookie season, Danks Floyd would both be thriving elsewhere.

But we have a terrible defensive OF and no strikeout pitchers. Atleast Anderson would make up for Quentins mediocrity in LF and Dyes age in RF.

getonbckthr
03-30-2009, 09:38 PM
I still find it funny that a perfectly serviceable, proven leadoff hitter by the name of Mark Grudzielanek is a free agent. Give me Grudz/Anderson over Wise/Getz.

jamesdiego
03-30-2009, 09:54 PM
We'll see how it works out. But lets be real. We know how Ozzie is. He has one guy he absolutely loves (Wise) and one guy he absolutely hates (Anderson) who is really going to get the bulk of the load? And Brian IIRC has been at winter ball. One year he got sent home early because he got wretchedly sick and one year he couldn't go because he broke his wrist.

And as has been discussed to exhaustion, The bulk of Brian's career AB's came in his rookie year. Since then he has been relocated to pinch hitting and spot starts. for years since his rookie year he has been told have a good spring and you can win the job. The first year he beats out Grinderstad and Ozzie still gives Grinderstad the job, even though he can longer play CF. Then last year we bring in Swisher, who I loved as a pick up, and Tell swisher to play out of position in CF and hit out of position and lead off. Then this year we tell Brian to compete, Him and Wise have virtually identical offensive springs with Brian having the farrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr superior glove and Brian is on the pine again. We are giving guys like Fields and Getz the year to prove they belong, we need to do the same with Brian. If we just gave up on every kid who ever had a bad rookie season, Danks Floyd would both be thriving elsewhere.

But we have a terrible defensive OF and no strikeout pitchers. Atleast Anderson would make up for Quentins mediocrity in LF and Dyes age in RF.

Good points, but I again say that Brian could of gained a lot of favor by putting up some decent numbers in winter ball. He chooses to party like a rock star, he had other chances gain more experiences with more at bats.

But it's not like this is over by any means. It's gonna be a year long competition for playing time. Brian will get his at bats, and if he out plays Wise he will get more. Both may be on the bench by the end of the year with Beckham at SS and Ramirez in CF.

Tragg
03-30-2009, 09:57 PM
In the regular season he batted .288 until Ozzie moved him into leadoff in the dreadfull series up in Minny where he put up a big 0/12. Which most definately affected him, and he batted .080 the rest of the regular season. But it was only 8 games, that he played bad, and was able to trun it around in the payofffs. The most awful player in history, don't be foolish people.First, Wise is a terrible defensive center fielder. Offensively, hehad 2 2-week periods in which he was productive; otherwise, he was awful. Overall, he had an OBP of below .300 Guillen is simply a poor judge of baseball positional talent. (Erstad is a .400 hitter; Owens is better than missle and tcq (a blind man could see that - it befuddled Guillen); Guillen's list of poor evaluations goes on and on). I
But I really blame Williams for allowing Guillen to do more of his clown managing like he did in 2007 and tried to do in 2008. That's what's so hard to understand.

october23sp
03-30-2009, 10:05 PM
:popcorn:

Here come the conspiracy theories.

:scratch: I'm really confused. I think Anderson/Owens/Wise are all not very good ballplayers but Ozzie can't really be blamed. Someone as to take the field.

Daver
03-30-2009, 10:06 PM
Good points, but I again say that Brian could of gained a lot of favor by putting up some decent numbers in winter ball.

How does one put up good numbers in winter ball while losing twenty pounds from being ill? Or are you just going to continue to make things up?

champagne030
03-30-2009, 10:08 PM
Someone had to win the battle for position, why is Ozzie a dip**** exactly?

Do we really need to count the ways?

I'll admit I do not have a way to quantify what he brings to the clubhouse.

I do know he's horrible with talent evaluation, fundamentals, lineups and strategic moves within a game.

Tragg
03-30-2009, 10:10 PM
Good points, but I again say that Brian could of gained a lot of favor by putting up some decent numbers in winter ball. He chooses to party like a rock star, he had other chances gain more experiences with more at bats.

But it's not like this is over by any means. It's gonna be a year long competition for playing time. Brian will get his at bats, and if he out plays Wise he will get more. Both may be on the bench by the end of the year with Beckham at SS and Ramirez in CF.
Anderson outplayed Wise this spring. Until Saturday, Wise had a obp below .300, with his usual horrific defense: Ozzie and his keen eye for talent called a .298 obp a "Tremendous spring".
I have no doubt that Ozzie will give Anderson some at bats against lefties (although he hits righties better).
It's a joke.
Injuries saved us from Guillen's talent evaluation last year.

october23sp
03-30-2009, 10:11 PM
Do we really need to count the ways?

I'll admit I do not have a way to quantify what he brings to the clubhouse.

I do know he's horrible with talent evaluation, fundamentals, lineups and strategic moves within a game.

I'll take the Two Division Championships and World Series Trophy, with the occasionaly misjudgment. Wise might not be bad or he could be awful. We will have to see. I don't see us sticking with a guy that struggles. We will find someone if Wise doesn't perform.

Brian26
03-30-2009, 10:11 PM
How does one put up good numbers in winter ball while losing twenty pounds from being ill? Or are you just going to continue to make things up?

On top of that, it was the Sox organization's decision to call everyone home after that happened. BA couldn't have stayed down there if he wanted to.

Daver
03-30-2009, 10:16 PM
On top of that, it was the Sox organization's decision to call everyone home after that happened. BA couldn't have stayed down there if he wanted to.

You have a helluva a lot of nerve bringing facts into the discussion.

Brian26
03-30-2009, 10:16 PM
All things being equal, Anderson has the much higher ceiling than 31-yr old Wise. This seems to be the perfect year to just give BA the CF job and let him run with it. No matter what anyone says, expectations this year aren't tremendously high like they were in '06 coming off the Series. They've already committed to young guys at 2nd and 3B.

jabrch
03-30-2009, 10:21 PM
If you would have bothered to read post# 20 you'd understand what I was saying.

In post #5, you said
Wise starting CF + leadoff hitter = Sox 79 wins max.

Backpeddle all you want... But you are full of **** if you think this team would win the division with anyone else on the current roster leading off and anyone else on the roster playing CF and it will only win 79 or fewer with Wise in that spot.

Completely and totally full of ****.

Eddo144
03-30-2009, 10:30 PM
In post #5, you said


Backpeddle all you want... But you are full of **** if you think this team would win the division with anyone else on the current roster leading off and anyone else on the roster playing CF and it will only win 79 or fewer with Wise in that spot.

Completely and totally full of ****.
He did say that, yes, Jab. He even repeated it in the other post you quoted.

One thing he most definitely did not say, however, was that the Sox would win the division with anyone else on the current roster leading off and anyone else on the roster playing CF. In fact, I believe he said he could see the Sox finishing over .500 in that situation.

He made a prediction that the Sox, with Wise leading off and playing CF, won't win more than 79 games. Just because they won't win the division otherwise doesn't make it a better move.

Tragg
03-30-2009, 10:40 PM
All things being equal, Anderson has the much higher ceiling than 31-yr old Wise. This seems to be the perfect year to just give BA the CF job and let him run with it. No matter what anyone says, expectations this year aren't tremendously high like they were in '06 coming off the Series. They've already committed to young guys at 2nd and 3B.
Well-put.

voodoochile
03-30-2009, 10:51 PM
All things being equal, Anderson has the much higher ceiling than 31-yr old Wise. This seems to be the perfect year to just give BA the CF job and let him run with it. No matter what anyone says, expectations this year aren't tremendously high like they were in '06 coming off the Series. They've already committed to young guys at 2nd and 3B.

BA performed better when forced to compete for his job. If he wants it, it's there for the taking unless Wise goes on an otherworldly tear (I doubt people would still care about whether BA got PT if that happened - at least I hope not). I see nothing wrong with starting the season with the system that worked best for the Sox to end last year and seemed to carry over to ST this year. If either of them has another gear or two to show, they still can and then we can be done with this nonsense once and for all. If not, there's always the chance the Sox can make a trade.

jamesdiego
03-30-2009, 11:05 PM
How does one put up good numbers in winter ball while losing twenty pounds from being ill? Or are you just going to continue to make things up?


Who's making things up? Brian hit like garbage last year and could of played winter ball THIS PAST WINTER. I didn't know I had to make that so clear to you, I apologize. Fields saw his future kind of iffy, called up Cora and said he wanted to work on his weakness, D. Brian could of taking the same initiative, but did not. He needs at bats before playing everyday at the major league level. Why should we all have to deal with him learning how to hit on the job? Kenny & Ozzie agree.

CLR01
03-30-2009, 11:11 PM
He needs at bats before playing everyday at the major league level.


Holy ****, you must be Ozzie. :kukoo:

twinsuck
03-30-2009, 11:29 PM
Good. I hate Jerry Owens so much. :angry:

soltrain21
03-30-2009, 11:41 PM
Who's making things up? Brian hit like garbage last year and could of played winter ball THIS PAST WINTER. I didn't know I had to make that so clear to you, I apologize. Fields saw his future kind of iffy, called up Cora and said he wanted to work on his weakness, D. Brian could of taking the same initiative, but did not. He needs at bats before playing everyday at the major league level. Why should we all have to deal with him learning how to hit on the job? Kenny & Ozzie agree.

He had 180 at bats last year.

Daver
03-30-2009, 11:44 PM
He had 180 at bats last year.


What part about facts do you people fail to understand?

They are not welcome in this thread.

Redus Redux
03-30-2009, 11:49 PM
Wise last year showed a touch of "when he hits 'em" so I'm gonna go along with it. The openness to move Getz in after awhile keeps me happy enough.

StillMissOzzie
03-30-2009, 11:52 PM
Owens had the job handed to him and he couldn't keep a grip on it.

While I don't think that Wise is the best option, I hope and wish him well in the new position. And in spite of Cowley's opinion, I think that we will see BA against some lefties as well as a late inning defensive replacement.

And if this doesn't work out, we know Ozzie isn't afraid to try something else.

SMO
:gulp:

soxinem1
03-30-2009, 11:58 PM
Owens had the job handed to him and he couldn't keep a grip on it.

While I don't think that Wise is the best option, I hope and wish him well in the new position. And in spite of Cowley's opinion, I think that we will see BA against some lefties as well as a late inning defensive replacement.

And if this doesn't work out, we know Ozzie isn't afraid to try something else.

Unless it is BA, that is what worries me.

However if all else fails, we can give a shot to the last real CF prospect in the organization:

http://www.cbc.ca/gfx/topstory/williams_kenny0215.jpg

CLR01
03-31-2009, 12:00 AM
And if this doesn't work out, we know Ozzie isn't afraid to try something else.

SMO
:gulp:


Lillibridge in CF!!!:bandance:

LoveYourSuit
03-31-2009, 12:02 AM
My stomach gets nauseated everytime I think about what our leadoff hitter/CF positing has become.

At this point if we survived with Cabrera for a season there, the drop off should not be that great IMO.


But one thing for sure, the rest of the line up needs to either maintain last year's production or others need to step up to their career numbers (Looking at you Mr Paulie).

voodoochile
03-31-2009, 12:05 AM
He had 180 at bats last year.

130 pre-All-Star when he posted a whopping .268 OBP and a .680 OPS...

Sounds to me like he was lucky to get 50 more in the second half, but he did - primarily against LHP and those numbers went up to .280 and .783.

I know... I know... the facts have no place in this discussion...

voodoochile
03-31-2009, 12:10 AM
My stomach gets nauseated everytime I think about what our leadoff hitter/CF positing has become.

At this point if we survived with Cabrera for a season there, the drop off should not be that great IMO.


But one thing for sure, the rest of the line up needs to either maintain last year's production or others need to step up to their career numbers (Looking at you Mr Paulie).

I think PK and Fields are both going to outperform the numbers that got posted from their positions last year. I'm hoping a platoon in CF will also outperform Swisher, et al. If Quentin, Dye, Ramirez, Thome and AJ can just hang in and Getz can exceed OC's OBP while coming close to his steal total, the Sox offense should be fine.

LoveYourSuit
03-31-2009, 12:17 AM
I think PK and Fields are both going to outperform the numbers that got posted from their positions last year. I'm hoping a platoon in CF will also outperform Swisher, et al. If Quentin, Dye, Ramirez, Thome and AJ can just hang in and Getz can exceed OC's OBP while coming close to his steal total, the Sox offense should be fine.


Agree.

I think we as fans still fail to recognize that we are still a mashing thumping team. As long as our heart of the order does their job, we are going to win 90 games with the help of solid pitching.

Our focus should be less on the top of the order and more towards the 3-4-5-6-7. That's the key to our season. I feel real good about our chances if those guy hit and we get solid starting pitching.

voodoochile
03-31-2009, 12:24 AM
Agree.

I think we as fans still fail to recognize that we are still a mashing thumping team. As long as our heart of the order does their job, we are going to win 90 games with the help of solid pitching.

Our focus should be less on the top of the order and more towards the 3-4-5-6-7. That's the key to our season. I feel real good about our chances if those guy hit and we get solid starting pitching.

I feel pretty good about 2-8 no matter which of AJ/TCM ends up in the 2-hole (or 3-9 if Getz bats second and Fields bats 9th). The only two serious question marks are Getz and CF, IMO. I don't expect Fields to hit like he has this spring (wouldn't that .441 average look sweet in August? :tongue: ) but I think he's going to have a productive year ala Crede with the bat. I'm thinking eventually Getz will be tossed into the leadoff role and the CF platoon will end up where it belongs batting 9th. Maybe this is Ozzie's way of sending a message to Kenny...

:ozzie:
"I don't know who the **** to leadoff... ****... ask Kenny who the **** he thinks I should ****ing leadoff. Tell him I'm gonna' ****ing bat Brian ****ing leadoff if he doesn't get me a real ****ing leadoff hitter... ****..."

Taliesinrk
03-31-2009, 12:29 AM
BA performed better when forced to compete for his job. If he wants it, it's there for the taking unless Wise goes on an otherworldly tear (I doubt people would still care about whether BA got PT if that happened - at least I hope not). I see nothing wrong with starting the season with the system that worked best for the Sox to end last year and seemed to carry over to ST this year. If either of them has another gear or two to show, they still can and then we can be done with this nonsense once and for all. If not, there's always the chance the Sox can make a trade.

There are a couple of problems: 1. Is this the same system that the Sox ended last year with? I'm not sure it is. It's being reported that this will not be a platoon (I still think BA has earned a majority of the PT). 2. Ozzie's the judge. Clearly, his evaluation "performance" is dictated by who's doing the performing. I think it's possible BA would outperform Wise and Ozzie rule that Wise played better/they played equally as well. This whole thing is ridiculous.

voodoochile
03-31-2009, 12:37 AM
There are a couple of problems: 1. Is this the same system that the Sox ended last year with? I'm not sure it is. It's being reported that this will not be a platoon (I still think BA has earned a majority of the PT). 2. Ozzie's the judge. Clearly, his evaluation "performance" is dictated by who's doing the performing. I think it's possible BA would outperform Wise and Ozzie rule that Wise played better/they played equally as well. This whole thing is ridiculous.

They are both going to get PT that's what matters right now. If one of them can grab the job and keep it, then great. If that's Wise who starts the season on a tear, figures out how to hit against LHP and forces BA to a bench role all season long, that's fine too. All that matters is they get the best production they can from the CF position. Personally, I'd bet that ends up being a platoon, but if Ozzie wants to challenge them to slam down a glove in CF and claim the spot as their own, I got no major problem with it. He won't stick with someone for long who can't cut it.

Taliesinrk
03-31-2009, 12:43 AM
They are both going to get PT that's what matters right now. If one of them can grab the job and keep it, then great. If that's Wise who starts the season on a tear, figures out how to hit against LHP and forces BA to a bench role all season long, that's fine too. All that matters is they get the best production they can from the CF position. Personally, I'd bet that ends up being a platoon, but if Ozzie wants to challenge them to slam down a glove in CF and claim the spot as their own, I got no major problem with it. He won't stick with someone for long who can't cut it.

Voodoo. I hope you're right. I think it interesting that you use the glove for the example because that's what BA has always done well. Unfortunately, I've had to endure the play of Erstad, Mack., Swish, and Owens out there and it hasn't been pretty. It's these prior examples that have me concerned.

Does anyone find it ironic that what Ozzie did well was play defense and yet he doesn't seem to value those who are similar in style to him?

BainesHOF
03-31-2009, 01:12 AM
Our center field situation the last couple years reminds me of the struggles we had with the No. 5 spot in the rotation during the days of Jerry Manuel.

I like Kenny Williams a lot, but it's maddening to find ourselves in such a bad spot for so long. Owens had no business being seriously considered. Wise is a subpar left fielder nevermind center fielder. Anderson has never learned how to hit.

It's a shame we're in this situation in center because the rest of the team looks like it has a shot to be pretty good.

HangWiffum
03-31-2009, 01:13 AM
when will this organization learn that you just can't throw any guy with a glove in center field?

cards press box
03-31-2009, 04:08 AM
I still find it funny that a perfectly serviceable, proven leadoff hitter by the name of Mark Grudzielanek is a free agent. Give me Grudz/Anderson over Wise/Getz.

Grudzielanek is a good player but he turns 39 this year. He is also a right-handed hitter and the Sox are already too right-handed. Getz adds another lefty bat and is 13 years younger. I'm glad the Sox are giving Getz an opportunity and he should make an excellent #2 hitter.

As for the leadoff spot, let's see if Wise works out there. Wise has had to fight to get where he is and sports, after all, is about the willingness to compete and battle. I'm rooting for Wise to follow in the footsteps of a player like Lou Johnson, who didn't become a regular outfielder until he turned 30 with the L.A. Dodgers in 1965. All Johnson did that year was hit the game winning homerun in Game 7 of the 1965 World Series against the Twins.

Anyway, if Wise doesn't pan out, perhaps KW will swing a deal for Melky Cabrera or Reggie Willits.

balke
03-31-2009, 06:39 AM
So no Nick Swisher, no Crede, no Javy, and no Cabrera this season is about the only changes to the team?

I don't think there's going to be too much difference from last year to this year. Sox should be better defensively in CF and weak in the IF.

This will affect Buehrle I think big time. A ground ball pitcher is relying on 3 young IFers to turn double plays and get him out of jams.

I don't see the Sox making the playoffs at this point, but I don't want them to sign any big money this year. I'd like to just see a regroup, let Thome's contract run out, and allow Jordan Danks and Beckham to develop. Find out what Konerko's situation is with his hip flexor and wrist this season. Next offseason is going to be crazy. There's going to be a lot of work to do to find a new source of power going forward with this team.

That being said, this team shouldn't be too much different, so if they are in the lead or close at the all-star break they have flexibility to make some moves which is nice. Who knows, Konerko and Thome might have big bounce back seasons. There's still Quentin and Dye, so the power surge could potentially be huge still. Maybe Fields can find his stroke again as well.

Frater Perdurabo
03-31-2009, 07:21 AM
If Wise was a career .300 BA/.350 OBP hitter, this decision would make sense.

Between two underwhelming hitters, Ozzie chose the one with the lesser glove to play CF.

Therefore, we must conclude one or both of these is true:

1. Ozzie does not value or understand defense in CF;

2. Ozzie still does not trust BA.

Tragg
03-31-2009, 09:40 AM
Who's making things up? Brian hit like garbage last year
And how would you describe Wise's .293 obp in 2008 and his career OBP of .254? Do you know how many walks Wise drew this spring? ZERO. ZERO. And despite his 2-day tear, his obp is still only .322 this spring (Anderson's is .356). Ozzie called his .298 obp (as of Saturday) "tremendous".

Is Wise's defense any better than "garbage"?

This is a joke.

ode to veeck
03-31-2009, 10:01 AM
http://twitter.com/cst_sox/statuses/1419638743

http://www.suntimes.com/sports/baseball/whitesox/1502539,sox-blog-owens-033009.article

Cowley says that Wise is the starter, and it's not a platoon situation for now.

why would anyone read anything Cowley says

ode to veeck
03-31-2009, 10:09 AM
I'm hoping that Cowley is just misinformed..

Misinformed is kinder than the truth. Misinformation, for sure, is what you'll get if you make the mistake of even reading his crap.

RockyMtnSoxFan
03-31-2009, 10:31 AM
This article (http://www.suntimes.com/sports/baseball/whitesox/1503332,CST-SPT-sox31.article) quotes Wise as saying that Ozzie told him he was the starting CF and leadoff hitter.

I think Ozzie likes to believe that he values defense. I also think he doesn't really know what he wants or what wins ballgames. He basically goes with the option that seems shinier at the moment. For whatever reason, that will never be Brian Anderson.

ode to veeck
03-31-2009, 10:37 AM
Hmmm, weird, huh?

But the thoughts of handing a 31-year old 5th outfielder journeyman the reigns to the leadoff and centerfield job because he hit a grand-slam last year and did well in the playoffs really has me pumped for this White Sox season.

Why have we already abandoned the platoon idea?

who said anything about abandoning the obvious platoon that Ozzie will be starting the season with

ode to veeck
03-31-2009, 10:39 AM
The only person reporting this so far as not a platoon is Cowley. I have zero respect for his ability to get a story right the first time. When Ozzie says it or when the first opponent LHP comes and BA isn't starting then I'll believe it.


almost correct, as Cowley doesn't get it right almost all of the time (if not all of the time)

ode to veeck
03-31-2009, 10:42 AM
If true, this is ridiculous. If not, Cowley's a jackass. <...>
I know, I'm overreacting here, but this is stupid.

No Cowley's a jackass and not worth reading regardless of everything else in the universe. Yes, you are overreacting. A reaction of any kind to anything Cowley says or writes is overreacting.

chisox12
03-31-2009, 10:43 AM
Defensively, this outfield really scares me. And not in a good way.

JermaineDye05
03-31-2009, 10:51 AM
If Wise was a career .300 BA/.350 OBP hitter, this decision would make sense.

Between two underwhelming hitters, Ozzie chose the one with the lesser glove to play CF.

Therefore, we must conclude one or both of these is true:

1. Ozzie does not value or understand defense in CF;

2. Ozzie still does not trust BA.

I'm guessing he was going with whoever was hitting best in the leadoff role this spring which wasn't BA.

ode to veeck
03-31-2009, 10:54 AM
What part about facts do you people fail to understand?

They are not welcome in this thread.

LMAO and spilled my coffee too, heh heh

thedudeabides
03-31-2009, 10:56 AM
No Cowley's a jackass and not worth reading regardless of everything else in the universe. Yes, you are overreacting. A reaction of any kind to anything Cowley says or writes is overreacting.

All I took from Cowley's article is that Wise will be given a chance to leadoff, and if he struggles they'll try Getz, and Brian will still got a shot against lefties. Basically, nothing has really changed. I think this year will be a lot like last, in that Ozzie will try different options until he finds the best fit. Any of the options right now are not ideal.

The only near unanimous conclusion this board could ever come up with regarding CF, is that Owens should be gone. Well, now he is and everyone is still up in arms.

These are quotes from Wise about a conversation he had with Ozzie, that were relayed through Cowley. Forgive me if I don't feel like anything is set in stone.

kittle42
03-31-2009, 10:58 AM
So no Nick Swisher, no Crede, no Javy, and no Cabrera this season is about the only changes to the team?

Yup, and where are all those folks who just told us all to calm down - trust KW - flying under the radar - when a good many of us expressed our feelings that the Sox were indeed not going to make any major additions?

ode to veeck
03-31-2009, 10:58 AM
All I took from Cowley's article is that <...>

'nuf said, never take anything from a Cowley article, not even worth using as toilet paper

jabrch
03-31-2009, 11:08 AM
Yup, and where are all those folks who just told us all to calm down - trust KW - flying under the radar - when a good many of us expressed our feelings that the Sox were indeed not going to make any major additions?


Still here...and I still think KW has a club that is more than capable of winning this division. I still wish we had a better CF option - but I can live with a platoon of Wise and BA. I don't see a team in this division that is clearly better than the Sox. And I really don't see one that is as good as us. Nobody has pitching close to ours except possibly the Twins - and their offense isn't close to ours.

People are overreacting to the one big hole we have (CF) and not focusing on everything else. If Fields and Getz do a respectable job holding down 3B and 2B, this team will be awfully strong even with a big gaping black hold platooning in CF.

voodoochile
03-31-2009, 11:09 AM
If Wise was a career .300 BA/.350 OBP hitter, this decision would make sense.

Between two underwhelming hitters, Ozzie chose the one with the lesser glove to play CF.

Therefore, we must conclude one or both of these is true:

1. Ozzie does not value or understand defense in CF;

2. Ozzie still does not trust BA.

3. Ozzie's just talking to hear himself talk. The opening day opponent's starter is a RHP and Ozzie (expecting to utilize mostly a platoon in CF this season) told Wise he is the starter and that if he excels it can become a full time gig. Wise takes that info to the reporters and the reporters freaked out and ran with the ball. Madness ensued...

jabrch
03-31-2009, 11:10 AM
3. Ozzie's just talking to hear himself talk. The opening day opponent's starter is a RHP and Ozzie (expecting to utilize mostly a platoon in CF this season) told Wise he is the starter and that if he excels it can become a full time gig. Wise takes that info to the reporters and the reporters freaked out and ran with the ball. Madness ensued...

That's not possible. FP told us what we "MUST" conclude - and your option wasn't one of them. :)

voodoochile
03-31-2009, 11:10 AM
And how would you describe Wise's .293 obp in 2008 and his career OBP of .254? Do you know how many walks Wise drew this spring? ZERO. ZERO. And despite his 2-day tear, his obp is still only .322 this spring (Anderson's is .356). Ozzie called his .298 obp (as of Saturday) "tremendous".

Is Wise's defense any better than "garbage"?

This is a joke.

Yes. Yes, it actually is, but never let the desire to make your boy look better get in the way of you saying it. Won't make it true, but that won't stop you from repeating it ad nauseum either.

DickAllen72
03-31-2009, 11:26 AM
In post #5, you said


Backpeddle all you want... But you are full of **** if you think this team would win the division with anyone else on the current roster leading off and anyone else on the roster playing CF and it will only win 79 or fewer with Wise in that spot.

Completely and totally full of ****.
Kiss my ass.

DickAllen72
03-31-2009, 11:31 AM
He did say that, yes, Jab. He even repeated it in the other post you quoted.

One thing he most definitely did not say, however, was that the Sox would win the division with anyone else on the current roster leading off and anyone else on the roster playing CF. In fact, I believe he said he could see the Sox finishing over .500 in that situation.

He made a prediction that the Sox, with Wise leading off and playing CF, won't win more than 79 games. Just because they won't win the division otherwise doesn't make it a better move.
Thank you. It's a pleasure to know that there are still people who know how to read and comprehend and can agree or disagree without without being condescending or insulting.

EndemicSox
03-31-2009, 11:42 AM
There isn't much of a difference b/w Anderson and Wise, as both pretty much suck. This is a Kenny Williams problem, Ozzie is just playing the crap hand he was dealt. With that being said, a bad CF isn't going to make the White Sox go from a 90 win team to a 75 win team. They may cost the team a win or two, but that is it...

tick53
03-31-2009, 11:47 AM
I'm pretty damn disgusted with the whole thing and the season hasn't even started yet. Anderson will sit on the bench. If KW and Ozzie dislike him so much then they should trade him to a team that can offer him some playing time. Jerry Owens is gone? Big deal. He like hundreds of ballplayers before him, he lacks the talent to play in the majors. It happens. I'm hot about the fact that Wise got the job but I could see that coming last year. Ozzie loves him.

The pitching staff looks weak. Starters and bullpen alike. In order for Colon to be effective, he'll have to go the way of Frank Tanana and change his style completely, a task that I'm sure that incapable of doing. Linebrink, Dotel and Macdougal? Not a good feeling here.

We have a few pokey baserunners who will clog up the paths. As much as I like PK, Thome, AJ and Dye, speed is almost non existant on this team.

Hawk said during the game the other day that the White Sox were not afraid to play the young guys. Where are they Hawk? If Beckham is ready then give him the job. If Tyler Flowers is that good then give him the job. Speaking of Hawk, it looks like the same old song in the broadcast booth. Now Hawk has a new partner to tell his tales of old to. Call the game and let Stone do what he was hired to do. Analyze. Maybe I owe Darrin Jackson an apology. I've always liked Hawk but when spinning his yarns about Yaz, Kaline and Sudden Sam Macdowell, I want to plug my ears.

But that's just my opinion. I could be wrong.

tick

Craig Grebeck
03-31-2009, 11:48 AM
Still here...and I still think KW has a club that is more than capable of winning this division. I still wish we had a better CF option - but I can live with a platoon of Wise and BA. I don't see a team in this division that is clearly better than the Sox. And I really don't see one that is as good as us. Nobody has pitching close to ours except possibly the Twins - and their offense isn't close to ours.

People are overreacting to the one big hole we have (CF) and not focusing on everything else. If Fields and Getz do a respectable job holding down 3B and 2B, this team will be awfully strong even with a big gaping black hold platooning in CF.
The Twins quite clearly have the best rotation in the division, if not all of baseball.

Paulwny
03-31-2009, 11:53 AM
If Ozzie is set on platooning these two, the smart thing to do is start Wise in smaller parks and start BA in larger parks with deep cf's where defense becomes more important.

voodoochile
03-31-2009, 12:12 PM
In post #5, you said


Backpeddle all you want... But you are full of **** if you think this team would win the division with anyone else on the current roster leading off and anyone else on the roster playing CF and it will only win 79 or fewer with Wise in that spot.

Completely and totally full of ****.

Kiss my ass.

The two of you knock it off. jabrch, you know better. Please keep the tone civil.

voodoochile
03-31-2009, 12:14 PM
If Ozzie is set on platooning these two, the smart thing to do is start Wise in smaller parks and start BA in larger parks with deep cf's where defense becomes more important.

I think some of that will factor in which is why OG isn't labeling it a strict platoon. In general they'll play a platoon situation, but in certain circumstances they will go away from it. I think this favors BA because he'll clearly be the choice when defense is the number one concern in Ozzie's mind.

russ99
03-31-2009, 12:15 PM
I'm pretty damn disgusted with the whole thing and the season hasn't even started yet. Anderson will sit on the bench. If KW and Ozzie dislike him so much then they should trade him to a team that can offer him some playing time. Jerry Owens is gone? Big deal. He like hundreds of ballplayers before him, he lacks the talent to play in the majors.

We'll see about that. And I'd go as far as be willing to wager that Owens has more hits in his MLB career than Anderson does. He's got a nice head start too...

And there's only one thing Anderson can do to get that chance so many of you think he deserves: take this (presumed) snub like a man, work hard and improve the obvious deficiencies of his hitting approach.

I for one will be interested in two things, what Wise does with this shot and what Kenny does by August 1st to correct such a glaring hole on the roster.

tick53
03-31-2009, 12:41 PM
We'll see about that. And I'd go as far as be willing to wager that Owens has more hits in his MLB career than Anderson does. He's got a nice head start too...

And there's only one thing Anderson can do to get that chance so many of you think he deserves: take this (presumed) snub like a man, work hard and improve the obvious deficiencies of his hitting approach.

I for one will be interested in two things, what Wise does with this shot and what Kenny does by August 1st to correct such a glaring hole on the roster.

Time will tell. Call it a gut feeling but I believe and always have that Brian has the goods. I don't profess to be an expert at baseball or anything else for that matter. I'm just a fan. Without a formal wager, let's watch their careers and determine later. May the best player win.

tick

Flight #24
03-31-2009, 12:51 PM
If BA gets a shot, then this is no biggie, I would agree that neither has separated from the other in ST. However, if this is not a platoon as some of the articles insinuate, then it perpetuates the idea that Ozzie isn't giving BA an even playing field because there isn't a performance advantage that Wise has demonstrated such that he'd deserve the job.

ode to veeck
03-31-2009, 12:57 PM
here's chucking a couple of rotten ones at one of the worst writers covering the Sox these days

:tomatoaward: :tomatoaward:

:cowley:

no wonder the parent co. filed bankruptcy today

Taliesinrk
03-31-2009, 01:33 PM
May the best player win.
tick

Are we talking about the real best player, or who Ozzie says is the best player?

voodoochile
03-31-2009, 01:56 PM
Are we talking about the real best player, or who Ozzie says is the best player?
:rolling:

This crap cracks me up...

kittle42
03-31-2009, 02:25 PM
:rolling:

This crap cracks me up...

It's a lost cause, voodoo. When Brian Anderson is 75 years old, he can tell his grandchildren how his first big league manager derailed his entire chance at superstardom.

I wonder if Brian Anderson himself, privately, blames this all on Ozzie, or whether he actually shoulders the responsibility himself. I find it hard to believe Anderson is as ridiculous as his fans.

jabrch
03-31-2009, 02:54 PM
:rolling:

This crap cracks me up...


Owens was just handed the job for 2009 - just because he is fast. Remember this is a fact...

Taliesinrk
03-31-2009, 03:35 PM
It's a lost cause, voodoo. When Brian Anderson is 75 years old, he can tell his grandchildren how his first big league manager derailed his entire chance at superstardom.

I wonder if Brian Anderson himself, privately, blames this all on Ozzie, or whether he actually shoulders the responsibility himself. I find it hard to believe Anderson is as ridiculous as his fans.

Oh come on Kittle, lighten up a bit. I was only half-joking - I mean, perhaps I'm slightly biased, but I think it was kind of funny. I even used proper punctuation and grammar here just for you! :D: Although, I have to admit that I'm not the best with hyphens... I typically just use them when I feel appropriate.

kittle42
03-31-2009, 03:38 PM
Oh come on Kittle, lighten up a bit. I was only half-joking - I mean, perhaps I'm slightly biased, but I think it was kind of funny. I even used proper punctuation and grammar here just for you! :D: Although, I have to admit that I'm not the best with hyphens... I typically just use them when I feel appropriate.

Well, obviously, I am half-joking, too. But plenty have said what you said with 100% seriousness.

Taliesinrk
03-31-2009, 03:39 PM
Well, obviously, I am half-joking, too. But plenty have said what you said with 100% seriousness.

Absolutely. I just saw the opportunity to beat a dead horse and couldn't pass it up.

chisox77
03-31-2009, 05:50 PM
The good thing about this is that Anderson stays with the club.

Tragg
03-31-2009, 06:32 PM
Owens was just handed the job for 2009 - just because he is fast. Remember this is a fact...
That was in 2008....then Dewayne Wise came to town and Ozzie was awestruck with his baseball skills. And this year, Wise had a "tremendous spring".
Ozzie will make sure that Anderson gets to bat against pitchers like Sabathia and will probably put him in in the 8th innings of games where we have the lead.

voodoochile
03-31-2009, 06:50 PM
That was in 2008....then Dewayne Wise came to town and Ozzie was awestruck with his baseball skills. And this year, Wise had a "tremendous spring".
Ozzie will make sure that Anderson gets to bat against pitchers like Sabathia and will probably put him in in the 8th innings of games where we have the lead.

He'll also get to face Gio Gonzales, Nate Robertson, Jeremy Sowers, Brett Burres, Garet Olsen and a whole host of guys who if they weren't lefthanded would have donked their way out of the bigs a long time ago but now they've got a niche as Loogy.

He also won't have to face Halliday a single time or Dice K or Josh Beckett or any of a host of strong RHP who will all face Wise if the platoon comes to be. See, it works both ways. He has to face the best LHP but not the best RHP now go ahead and tell me how BA hits RHP better... not very well mind you but better than LHP.

But keep holding on to that conspiracy crap it's ****ing hilarious...

kittle42
03-31-2009, 06:51 PM
He'll also get to face Gio Gonzales, Nate Robertson, Jeremy Sowers, Brett Burres, Garet Olsen and a whole host of guys who if they weren't lefthanded would have donked their way out of the bigs a long time ago but now they've got a niche as Loogy.

He also won't have to face Halliday a single time or Dice K or Josh Beckett or any of a host of strong RHP who will all face Wise if the platoon comes to be. See, it works both ways. He has to face the best LHP but not the best RHP now go ahead and tell me how BA hits RHP better... not very well mind you but better than LHP.

But keep holding on to that conspiracy crap it's ****ing hilarious...

Absolutely wonderful.

JB98
03-31-2009, 07:39 PM
:popcorn:

Here come the conspiracy theories.

I knew this thread would get out of control.

Flight #24
03-31-2009, 10:53 PM
But keep holding on to that conspiracy crap it's ****ing hilarious...

I'll try to keep this on a content-based frequency. IMO it's not about a conspiracy against BA, it's about Ozzie giving the benefit of the doubt to a certain type of player. Fast. Scrappy. (Dare I say "Grindy"?).

BA is not that. At least not compared to Owens & Wise. But he is a far superior defender, and not demonstrably worse than those 2 at bat. But he gets less of a chance because Ozzie values "grindiness" over D.

voodoochile
03-31-2009, 11:25 PM
I'll try to keep this on a content-based frequency. IMO it's not about a conspiracy against BA, it's about Ozzie giving the benefit of the doubt to a certain type of player. Fast. Scrappy. (Dare I say "Grindy"?).

BA is not that. At least not compared to Owens & Wise. But he is a far superior defender, and not demonstrably worse than those 2 at bat. But he gets less of a chance because Ozzie values "grindiness" over D.

And you know this how? Based on your months of time spent in the locker room talking with Ozzie about what he wants/expects from the players? Because you've got an inside pipeline to the way all the players have acted while on the team? Because you've been privy to BA's work ethic, drive, attitude and general (lack of) grindiness and have been ever since he first got handed the CF job back in 2006?

Beyond all that, shouldn't pretty much every player who is new to the big leagues exhibit a certain level of "grindiness" or at least "go-get-it-ness" something along the lines of "I'll bust my ass until the grass turns red from the blood I've sweated before I'll go back to riding a bus in NC?" If not, then how is a manager supposed to make decisions on PT with marginal players? You suggest a different approach to determining who gets the PT, but aside from the players who clearly belong from the minute they first play (Dye, Frank, Thome, Buehrle, Quentin, etc.) the rest have to earn it. Generally speaking when given the choice between two marginal performers most managers will take the guy who seems to be trying the hardest to improve.

I don't know what's gone on in the locker room and I'm not Miss Cleo, so I can't tell you what's going on in Ozzie's head or in BA's heart. Nor can I speak to how the decisions have been arrived at. You seem to feel the opposite. Me? I'll go with Ozzie...

champagne030
03-31-2009, 11:38 PM
Owens was just handed the job for 2009 - just because he is fast. Remember this is a fact...

It is fact.......straight from Oswaldo's lips.......

http://www.chicagotribune.com/sports/chi-31-white-sox-bits-chicago-mar31,0,7517404.story

DSpivack
03-31-2009, 11:48 PM
It is fact.......straight from Oswaldo's lips.......

http://www.chicagotribune.com/sports/chi-31-white-sox-bits-chicago-mar31,0,7517404.story

:?:

Only thing there was Ozzie commenting on Owens.

champagne030
03-31-2009, 11:52 PM
:?:

Only thing there was Ozzie commenting on Owens.

Ozzie: we gave him the job for three yearshttp://www.chicagotribune.com/sports/chi-31-white-sox-bits-chicago-mar31,0,7517404.story

DSpivack
03-31-2009, 11:55 PM
http://www.chicagotribune.com/sports/chi-31-white-sox-bits-chicago-mar31,0,7517404.story

Right, the job as an outfielder in the Sox organization. Nowhere there does it say anything about Owens in relation to BA.

champagne030
03-31-2009, 11:59 PM
Right, the job as an outfielder in the Sox organization. Nowhere there does it say anything about Owens in relation to BA.

I never suggested Ozzie made a comment about Anderson. I'm just repeating Ozzie's words that Owens was given the starting CF job 3 seasons in a row. :scratch:

DSpivack
04-01-2009, 12:04 AM
I never suggested Ozzie made a comment about Anderson. I'm just repeating Ozzie's words that Owens was given the starting CF job 3 seasons in a row. :scratch:

Gah, I was confusing you with Flight, sorry.

PicktoCLick72
04-01-2009, 12:16 AM
Arpril 6 cannot come soon enough.

JB98
04-01-2009, 12:37 AM
Arpril 6 cannot come soon enough.

Pffftttt. You don't really think this debate is going to end on April 6, do you?

tm1119
04-01-2009, 01:02 AM
I'll try to keep this on a content-based frequency. IMO it's not about a conspiracy against BA, it's about Ozzie giving the benefit of the doubt to a certain type of player. Fast. Scrappy. (Dare I say "Grindy"?).

BA is not that. At least not compared to Owens & Wise. But he is a far superior defender, and not demonstrably worse than those 2 at bat. But he gets less of a chance because Ozzie values "grindiness" over D.

Yes, he actually has been far worse than the other 2 with the bat. BA dug his own grave with his horrific season in '06. Hopefully this is the season he can finally redeem himself though, because I really dont think this team can survive a season of Dewayne Wise

ode to veeck
04-01-2009, 01:43 AM
I knew this thread would get out of control.

it was doomed from before post #1 based on that idiot Cowley's hearsay that started the whole non-debate

It's Dankerific
04-01-2009, 02:52 AM
I wonder how BA is going to get a chance to "win more playing time" while starting once, maybe twice (if he's lucky) in a week. He most likely wont get to start the opening series against KC making that quite a few games before he even gets his first chance to bat.

Somehow, BA is supposed to be able to hit at a moments notice no matter the infrequency while everyone else gets plenty of time. I look forward to hearing how the season is only in April, May, and June and how that one time last week BA went 0-4 so he really isn't an option.

I knew better than to believe BA had a chance to actually win the job out of ST.

Frater Perdurabo
04-01-2009, 07:15 AM
I'm sorry, but for me, being a Sox fan does not require me to agree with and support every single decisions Ozzie makes. I think making Wise the CF starter and leadoff hitter is a bad decision.

Throughout his tenure, Ozzie has done three things poorly:

1. Managing the CF position, specifically, undervaluing CF defense
2. Managing the bullpen, specifically, slavish adhering to L-L, R-R matchups
3. Managing young players, specifically being very impatient

He does many other things well. But when he does something stupid, like naming Wise the starting CF and leadoff hitter, he deserves scorn.

ms620
04-01-2009, 09:18 AM
Regarding Anderson....we obviously do not need to agree with everything Ozzie and Kenny decide to do. However, I do not think anyone could argue that they don't have more baseball knowledge than we do. And that they have more experience at making these types of decisions than we do. So if they once again chose not to have BA as their starting CF, there must be plenty of reasons why. Can BA being a decent starter some day? Maybe, maybe not. Most scouts now would think that he is nothing more than a 4th outfielder at best. While Wise might be a disaster (and I am part of those who agree that he is not a starter on a championship team), I just find it hard to believe that BA would be a difference maker. Yes BA plays better defense, but when he had his shot to start, he was terrible at the plate. Last year, during that short span, Wise was much more dangerous as an every day player than BA has ever been. BA had some huge hits coming off the bench late in games, or when he got his 1 or 2 starts a week. The Sox need a CF, but BA is not the answer.

Eddo144
04-01-2009, 09:34 AM
I'm sorry, but for me, being a Sox fan does not require me to agree with and support every single decisions Ozzie makes. I think making Wise the CF starter and leadoff hitter is a bad decision.

Throughout his tenure, Ozzie has done three things poorly:

1. Managing the CF position, specifically, undervaluing CF defense
2. Managing the bullpen, specifically, slavish adhering to L-L, R-R matchups
3. Managing young players, specifically being very impatient

He does many other things well. But when he does something stupid, like naming Wise the starting CF and leadoff hitter, he deserves scorn.
Thanks for pointing that out, Frater. Ozzie learned from Tony La Russa, who constantly outsmarts himself making lefty-righty switches in the bullpen. I remember in 2005, when Neal Cotts was actually more effective against righties, Ozzie would still pull him after he got one lefty out.

Sometimes, a good pitcher is just a good pitcher, regardless of handedness.

kittle42
04-01-2009, 10:22 AM
I wonder how BA is going to get a chance to "win more playing time" while starting once, maybe twice (if he's lucky) in a week. He most likely wont get to start the opening series against KC making that quite a few games before he even gets his first chance to bat.

Somehow, BA is supposed to be able to hit at a moments notice no matter the infrequency while everyone else gets plenty of time. I look forward to hearing how the season is only in April, May, and June and how that one time last week BA went 0-4 so he really isn't an option.

I knew better than to believe BA had a chance to actually win the job out of ST.

When Wise sucks, which is bound to happen, Anderson will play. When Wise and Anderson both suck, we can continue to argue about which of them sucks less. What a fun season!

jabrch
04-01-2009, 11:12 AM
When Wise sucks, which is bound to happen, Anderson will play. When Wise and Anderson both suck, we can continue to argue about which of them sucks less. What a fun season!


Spot on Kittle!

Nice to have something to distract us from what can possible be a very good ballclub other than this one (significant) hole.

russ99
04-01-2009, 11:13 AM
Throughout his tenure, Ozzie has done three things poorly:

1. Managing the CF position, specifically, undervaluing CF defense
3. Managing young players, specifically being very impatient


Do you have any other examples of this, or are you just assuming Ozzie is like this because Anderson is "special". :rolleyes:

He's only undervaluing Anderson's defense because he can't hit. If BA hits with any consistency, then he's in there, which still could happen. And I mean off of MLB pitchers, not AA or AAA guys in Spring Training.

Was he impatient with Quentin? Fields? Richar? What about Danks or Floyd? Seriously, get a grip. Anderson got 4 months of unabated playing time in 2006, and he couldn't do the job. There's no impatience there. Or should Ozzie just have handed him the job since then based on 4 months of bad attitude and failure to hit MLB pitching?

There's no reason (other than the ones in your mind) that Anderson deserves better treatment than any other player.

Chez
04-01-2009, 11:16 AM
I would expect Anderson to get starts against right handers when the Sox are playing in ballparks with spacious outfields/deep alleys (e.g. Detroit, NY).

thedudeabides
04-01-2009, 11:19 AM
I'm sorry, but for me, being a Sox fan does not require me to agree with and support every single decisions Ozzie makes. I think making Wise the CF starter and leadoff hitter is a bad decision.

Throughout his tenure, Ozzie has done three things poorly:

1. Managing the CF position, specifically, undervaluing CF defense
2. Managing the bullpen, specifically, slavish adhering to L-L, R-R matchups
3. Managing young players, specifically being very impatient

He does many other things well. But when he does something stupid, like naming Wise the starting CF and leadoff hitter, he deserves scorn.

Everyone has the right to question management and I think they should.

1. I hang this much more on Kenny than anything.

2. This is a different debate in itself, but he handles his bullpen almost exactly the same as Larussa and Bobby Cox.

3. I think you're completely off on this one. This has actually been one of Ozzie's biggest plusses. In the last couple of years, under Ozzie, Jenks, Danks, Floyd, Alexei, and TCQ are turning into all-star caliber players. His patience was the biggest turning point in Garlands career. Aarond Rowand became a good player under this coaching staffs development, and Fingernails on a blackboard was well on his way before being shipped off. He oversaw a smooth transition for our two Japanese imports who had success for a period of time. Fields and Getz are given a chance this year and they may be another success story. They easily could have given up on Josh this year, or found a cheap second basemen.

As far as BA goes, I don't buy into the theory that Ozzie hates him. If he did he would have been sent off just like Boone, Tracey, Swisher, and Javy. It was pretty clear Ozzie didn't want them around. I think they view Brian as what he is, a fourth outfielder. And they value him for that. He has never shown he is anything more than that. Wise is getting a chance, just like Owens, because they think he could do more with the bat then Brian. Owens couldn't and was cut. If Wise struggles bad, Brian will be there to step in. I can't see Wise having sustained success for the whole year, but he may get hot for a couple of weeks or even months.

Jurr
04-01-2009, 12:46 PM
Well, a 162 game schedule will help this whole thing pan out. If Wise plays good defense and can hit at least his weight, he'll stay. If not, Anderson could have the job. Look at how 2008 started and how it finished. By the season's end, Floyd and Danks were our standout pitchers, Quentin was up for MVP consideration, and Ramirez for ROY. I'm excited to see how it all unfolds.

DirtySox
04-01-2009, 01:42 PM
http://blogs.chicagosports.chicagotribune.com/sports_hardball/2009/04/owens-clears-waivers-outrighted-to-charlotte.html

Owens cleared waivers, outrighted to Charlotte.

Sockinchisox
04-01-2009, 01:42 PM
Owens has cleared waivers and has been outrighted to AAA.

http://blogs.chicagosports.chicagotribune.com/sports_hardball/2009/04/owens-clears-waivers-outrighted-to-charlotte.html

Tragg
04-01-2009, 02:14 PM
He'll also get to face Gio Gonzales, Nate Robertson, Jeremy Sowers, Brett Burres, Garet Olsen and a whole host of guys who if they weren't lefthanded would have donked their way out of the bigs a long time ago but now they've got a niche as Loogy.

He also won't have to face Halliday a single time or Dice K or Josh Beckett or any of a host of strong RHP who will all face Wise if the platoon comes to be. See, it works both ways. He has to face the best LHP but not the best RHP now go ahead and tell me how BA hits RHP better... not very well mind you but better than LHP.

But keep holding on to that conspiracy crap it's ****ing hilarious...
No - it does not work both ways. If Wise is the starter, he will start against some left handed pitching. Let's see which lefties he'll be lifted for: the stiffs? or the Sabathias and Lorianos?
It's no conspiracy - it's inability to judge talent. Had we kept Sweeney, relegated to throw-in status because of Guillen's talent evaluation skills (vanquished him after 3 weeks; kept owens around for 2 months) would have solved this problem (at least compared to what we have now).
Try again, smart guy.

kittle42
04-01-2009, 02:18 PM
No - it does not work both ways. If Wise is the starter, he will start against some left handed pitching. Let's see which lefties he'll be lifted for: the stiffs? or the Sabathias and Lorianos?
It's no conspiracy - it's inability to judge talent.
Try again, smart guy.

What hitting talent has Anderson shown? As many, many, many love to state as a mantra here, "I'll trust the baseball people over posters here."

Daver
04-01-2009, 02:21 PM
Owens has cleared waivers and has been outrighted to AAA.

http://blogs.chicagosports.chicagotribune.com/sports_hardball/2009/04/owens-clears-waivers-outrighted-to-charlotte.html

Owens could sit on waivers for a month and clear them, he's not very good at playing baseball.

Tragg
04-01-2009, 02:24 PM
What hitting talent has Anderson shown? As many, many, many love to state as a mantra here, "I'll trust the baseball people over posters here."
As much as Wise and far more defensive talent. And not even the most ardent Anderson supporter has suggested leadoff. As for the mantra, then we shouldn't discuss anything really. Everyone can be a house-horse for the management....that's fine, a lot of people are.
Guillen's judgment with outfield personnel has been bizarre. Thank goodness Owens got injured last year and thank goodness TCQ hit IMMEDIATELY. Who can argue that a .298 obp isn't "tremendous"

NLaloosh
04-01-2009, 02:37 PM
Thanks for pointing that out, Frater. Ozzie learned from Tony La Russa, who constantly outsmarts himself making lefty-righty switches in the bullpen. I remember in 2005, when Neal Cotts was actually more effective against righties, Ozzie would still pull him after he got one lefty out.

Sometimes, a good pitcher is just a good pitcher, regardless of handedness.

And, sometimes a guy is just throwing really well that day. So, why pull a guy that has his stuff working and is getting outs to bring in a new guy that may not have it or be able to throw strikes at that time ?

If it's working, leave it alone. They play the hot hand with the lineup but not with the bullpen ?

Frankfan4life
04-01-2009, 02:44 PM
I'll say this....Owens handled the situation well this year. He may not have played great, but he said all the right things and at least appears to be taking this as professionally as he could. Good luck to Owens wherever he ends up.I'm with you. Owens is a class act. I was really hoping things would work out for him here. Perhaps he'll have better luck with another team. I wish him the best.

I also want to wish DW good luck as our new CF. I hope he continues to be clutch and I'm hoping he'll be a good defender out in center.

voodoochile
04-01-2009, 02:49 PM
No - it does not work both ways. If Wise is the starter, he will start against some left handed pitching. Let's see which lefties he'll be lifted for: the stiffs? or the Sabathias and Lorianos?
It's no conspiracy - it's inability to judge talent. Had we kept Sweeney, relegated to throw-in status because of Guillen's talent evaluation skills (vanquished him after 3 weeks; kept owens around for 2 months) would have solved this problem (at least compared to what we have now).
Try again, smart guy.

How do you know this? I mean honestly, we haven't even played a single game this year and you have NO CLUE AT ALL how the players will be used. You really think Ozzie is stupid enough to put Wise out there regularly against LHP unless he suddenly develops the ability to hit it? I mean his career OPS against LHP is around .600.

So come on, Miss Cleo, tell me one more time how exactly you know this crap you are spouting...

Daver
04-01-2009, 03:03 PM
You really think Ozzie is stupid enough

Yes.

voodoochile
04-01-2009, 03:06 PM
Yes.

Why? I mean if there's one thing Ozzie has shown is he wants guys who can hit the baseball.

jabrch
04-01-2009, 03:10 PM
Why? I mean if there's one thing Ozzie has shown is he wants guys who can hit the baseball.


We are still haggling over multiple options, none of whom are ideal, and people are still certain that they know the answer to which one is going to be worse... And I have no idea how people can be that confident in any of these guys that they can definitely say there is a right and wrong answer to any of these questions.

Daver
04-01-2009, 03:12 PM
Why? I mean if there's one thing Ozzie has shown is he wants guys who can hit the baseball.


Since when can Wise do that?

Daver
04-01-2009, 03:14 PM
We are still haggling over multiple options, none of whom are ideal, and people are still certain that they know the answer to which one is going to be worse... And I have no idea how people can be that confident in any of these guys that they can definitely say there is a right and wrong answer to any of these questions.

I can be confident that the White Sox will have one of the worst defensive outfields in MLB this seeason.

eriqjaffe
04-01-2009, 03:18 PM
Who can argue that a .298 obp isn't "tremendous"Well, it's not terrible compared to Ozzie's career OBP of .287!