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Carolina Kenny
03-27-2009, 05:09 PM
If you are listening my little, little bridge. If you can read this. Get yourself a bottle bat,crunch down real real low and put the ball in play.

Don't take huge cuts trying to kill the ball, just dump the ball behind first base and you will be on second base before you know it.

If you are listening my little, little, bridge-just get your butt on base any way you can.

Ozzie will appreciate it and you will get to play more often, cause Ozzie loves speed.

Love,
Mom

Rocky Soprano
03-27-2009, 05:11 PM
Was this supposed to be clever or funny? If so, I'm sorry but you failed.
Littlebridge? Sounds like a "cute" cub nickname.

Carolina Kenny
03-27-2009, 05:20 PM
Was this supposed to be clever or funny? If so, I'm sorry but you failed.
Littlebridge? Sounds like a "cute" cub nickname.


He is little you must admit. If he make the team he will be used as a "bridge" player used as a sub or spot starter.

So he is Little Bridge and you can't stop me. He also needs his mommy to tell him to act like a Little Bridge and not a Big Bridge.

Big Bridge is Benemit's new name.

Domeshot17
03-27-2009, 05:30 PM
Someone should have told Kenny in order to steal 40 bases he would actually have to get on base 40 times.

oeo
03-27-2009, 05:32 PM
I never really expected much from him, but I have to think he's pressing quite a bit right now. There's no way he's made it this far in his career looking that terrible at the plate.

LoveYourSuit
03-27-2009, 05:41 PM
Another slow day at WSI ...... Can the season just start please?

Carolina Kenny
03-27-2009, 06:06 PM
Another slow day at WSI ...... Can the season just start please?

Yeah, blogging about a piece of crap sub that can't even hit his weight is pretty dismal.

FedEx227
03-27-2009, 06:47 PM
I'm not sure what to do with him anymore. A few years back I was real impressed with what I saw, looked at some numbers and saw some videos and he looked like a real solid all-around prospect. Now it's tough to say. Age isn't on his side anymore, he's losing that "prospect" status.

Lip Man 1
03-27-2009, 06:48 PM
Here's how you "fix" him. You send him to Charlotte.

Lip

oeo
03-27-2009, 06:52 PM
Yeah, blogging about a piece of crap sub that can't even hit his weight is pretty dismal.

Did he **** in your cereal this morning or what? The guy has never even played a game for the Sox, damn...

oeo
03-27-2009, 06:53 PM
Here's how you "fix" him. You send him to Charlotte.

Lip

Only problem there is we don't have anyone else that can play up the middle.

champagne030
03-27-2009, 06:53 PM
Here's how you "fix" him. You send him to Charlotte.

Lip

The only problem with that is Alexei isn't going to play 162. And we don't have another guy who can even be considered below average. Betemit is beyond brutal at SS.

Lillian
03-27-2009, 06:55 PM
Whenever I see these "wanna be" leadoff slap hitters like Owens and Lillibridge, I always wonder why they don't just choke up on the bat in an effort to actually make the kind of contact for which they're striving.

If a hitter can drive the ball with power, then I understand why they would have their hands way down on the knob of the handle. But these "punch and Judy" hitters should try to emmulate someone like Nellie Fox. Hey, even Pet Rose choked up on the bat. If it was good enough for those guys, it should be good enough for these underachievers.

russ99
03-27-2009, 07:18 PM
Someone should have told Kenny in order to steal 40 bases he would actually have to get on base 40 times.

You said the same thing about Podsednik 2 years ago and Owens since. And I bet that if Jordan Danks makes the team in 1-2 years you'll say the same thing about him. Sheesh, give the kid a chance. Lillibridge has been seeing live pitching with the club 3 weeks and you already hate him.

Some people just don't like base-stealers with no power. Where does it say that the Sox have to have nine 25+ homer hitters in the lineup to be successful?

Domeshot17
03-27-2009, 07:53 PM
You said the same thing about Podsednik 2 years ago and Owens since. And I bet that if Jordan Danks makes the team in 1-2 years you'll say the same thing about him. Sheesh, give the kid a chance. Lillibridge has been seeing live pitching with the club 3 weeks and you already hate him.

Some people just don't like base-stealers with no power. Where does it say that the Sox have to have nine 25+ homer hitters in the lineup to be successful?

Find where I put down Pods? I loved the Podsednik pickup. I was actually very bummed when he started having the groin problems and it seemed to derail his career. Owens I wish would prove me wrong, but the guy hasn't shown any signs of improvement.

I am all for anyone who can help this team out, but go search any scouting lists, and Lillibridge PLUMMETED in the Braves system. The concerns with him where we was a good athlete and not a good hitter. He has great speed and is a great baserunner, good with the glove, but his bat isn't going to translate at the major league level. Most Braves fans and boards considered him a toss in in the Javy Deal with Flowers being the big piece.

I love base stealers, but just like I hate Russell Branyan sluggers who don't do a thing but hit home runs, I hate base stealers who offer nothing. Pods knew how to bunt, use his speed to slap base hits, he was great. He also could destroy a pitcher on the mound just by being on first. Owens doesn't do that, Lillibridge doesn't, and we will see on Danks. I like Danks a lot, and I am glad people are finally seeing him as a lead off man and not the 5 tool prospect he was touted in college.

Goodman6
03-27-2009, 08:07 PM
Some people just don't like base-stealers with no power. Where does it say that the Sox have to have nine 25+ homer hitters in the lineup to be successful?[/quote]

This is not a matter of not liking base-stealers with no power. This is a matter of not liking a slap hitter that, so far this spring, has a .233 OBP, .220 BA and 23 freakin' strikeouts in only 59 times at bat. This is the same guy that hit only .220 in Triple A and .200 with the Braves last year. What's there to like? He needs to be sent to Charlotte and KW needs to find a veteran utility guy that can play SS and 2B.

tm1119
03-27-2009, 08:25 PM
Another big problem is that he now has 5 errors this spring. I think we could get away with putting his bat in the lineup a few times a month or so, but if he cant field his position while giving us 0 offense then I'm really not sure if he belongs in the big leagues.

russ99
03-28-2009, 10:32 AM
This is not a matter of not liking base-stealers with no power. This is a matter of not liking a slap hitter that, so far this spring, has a .233 OBP, .220 BA and 23 freakin' strikeouts in only 59 times at bat. This is the same guy that hit only .220 in Triple A and .200 with the Braves last year. What's there to like? He needs to be sent to Charlotte and KW needs to find a veteran utility guy that can play SS and 2B.

I'm not advocating Lillibridge making the team, as he has not had a good spring. But I also think that we shouldn't dismiss players like him out of hand, based on the style of player they are.

Ozzie learned under Torborg as a coach with the Expos and Marlins and has a National League style, so why wouldn't he want a NL-style leadoff hitter. We don't need a team entirely of sluggers.

It just seems that players who don't hit with power are held to a different standard that players who are not. Granted we're not seeing guys like that on the team this year putting up numbers that we'd like to see, but even in the past it seems that hitters that hit sub .240 and hit 15-20 homers (Like Uribe) are OK, but guys who hit .270+ and no homers (like Mackoviak) are not. Open your mind. Those guys can help the team too.

russ99
03-28-2009, 10:44 AM
Find where I put down Pods? I loved the Podsednik pickup. I was actually very bummed when he started having the groin problems and it seemed to derail his career. Owens I wish would prove me wrong, but the guy hasn't shown any signs of improvement.

I am all for anyone who can help this team out, but go search any scouting lists, and Lillibridge PLUMMETED in the Braves system. The concerns with him where we was a good athlete and not a good hitter. He has great speed and is a great baserunner, good with the glove, but his bat isn't going to translate at the major league level. Most Braves fans and boards considered him a toss in in the Javy Deal with Flowers being the big piece.

I love base stealers, but just like I hate Russell Branyan sluggers who don't do a thing but hit home runs, I hate base stealers who offer nothing. Pods knew how to bunt, use his speed to slap base hits, he was great. He also could destroy a pitcher on the mound just by being on first. Owens doesn't do that, Lillibridge doesn't, and we will see on Danks. I like Danks a lot, and I am glad people are finally seeing him as a lead off man and not the 5 tool prospect he was touted in college.

Sorry dude. Didn't mean to single you out. I overreacted to your post. Can't wait until the season starts so we all can stop this "my guy's better that your guy" junk and talk about actual baseball :smile:

I personally prefer a scrappy speed guy disrupting the pitcher like Pods did at leadoff before he got hurt and I really would love to see Jordan Danks to turn into that kind of player. I also think it's telling that Kenny's done some personal scouting for this year's draft at the position, since the club has a void of players like that in the system

And while I think that guys like Owens and Lillibridge have shown that they have part of that skill set to do the job and could be that kind of player, they're certainly not showing that both in approach and results this spring.

cards press box
03-28-2009, 11:31 AM
Here's how you "fix" him. You send him to Charlotte.

Lip

I'd have to agree. Lillibridge's offense went south in 2008 and he doesn't seem to have corrected the problem yet. Charlotte is the best place for him to work on his offensive game.

This raises another question: if Lillibridge goes to AAA, who is the White Sox back up infielder? More specifically, who backs up Alexei Ramirez at SS?

soltrain21
03-28-2009, 11:40 AM
We don't have a backup middle infielder if he doesn't make the team.

hi im skot
03-28-2009, 11:57 AM
We don't have a backup middle infielder if he doesn't make the team.

Until Nix returns, anyway.

/crosses fingers

Frater Perdurabo
03-28-2009, 12:04 PM
but guys who hit .270+ and no homers (like Mackoviak) are not. Open your mind. Those guys can help the team too.

Mackowiak was a fantastic "super sub" who could play the corner OF and 1B and 2B adequately and could pinch hit, who Ozzie unfortunately put almost exclusively in center field, where his defensive shortcoming were exposed and where they hurt the Sox.

Mackowiak certainly helped the team with his bat. In fact, he not only hit for decent average, but he also had some power. Unfortunately, his glove hurt the team when it was in CF.

Lip Man 1
03-28-2009, 12:48 PM
So let me make sure I understand what some appear to be saying.

Brent should make the team (however bad he is) because the Sox don't have a back up for the position?

Interesting logic.

If anybody gets hurt for any length of time they are going to have to make a trade anyway because Brent at this point doesn't appear capable of playing at the big league level.

George Bova always brought up the point that you make the team better by having the 25 best players you can on the roster and that even if it's the 25th player, if you can upgrade that spot, you upgrade the overall potential of the club.

I'd rather have Betemit as bad as he is defensively as the 24th or 25th guy because he is playing better then Brent and has done so over the course of his major league career.

Betemit is not going to be playing shortstop on a regular basis.

All not having a "back up" shortstop is going to do is stop Ozzie for playing as many goofy "match-up's" that he loves to do.

That in my book is NOT a bad thing.

Lip

Frater Perdurabo
03-28-2009, 12:52 PM
So let me make sure I understand what some appear to be saying.

Brent should make the team (however bad he is) because the Sox don't have a back up for the position?

Interesting logic.

If anybody gets hurt for any length of time they are going to have to make a trade anyway because Brent at this point doesn't appear capable of playing at the big league level.

George Bova always brought up the point that you make the team better by having the 25 best players you can on the roster and that even if it's the 25th player, if you can upgrade that spot, you upgrade the overall potential of the club.

I'd rather have Betemit as bad as he is defensively as the 24th or 25th guy because he is playing better then Brent and has done so over the course of his major league career.

Betemit is not going to be playing shortstop on a regular basis.

All not having a "back up" shortstop is going to do is stop Ozzie for playing as many goofy "match-up's" that he loves to do.

That in my book is NOT a bad thing.

Lip

Just wait. Lillibridge will be seeing time in CF so Betemit can get ABs at SS. :angry:

cards press box
03-28-2009, 06:46 PM
I'd have to agree. Lillibridge's offense went south in 2008 and he doesn't seem to have corrected the problem yet. Charlotte is the best place for him to work on his offensive game.

This raises another question: if Lillibridge goes to AAA, who is the White Sox back up infielder? More specifically, who backs up Alexei Ramirez at SS?

Well, Lillibridge had a good game today against the Dodgers. Hopefully, he will continue to improve at the plate and help the big league club.

veeter
03-28-2009, 08:54 PM
Well, Lillibridge had a good game today against the Dodgers. Hopefully, he will continue to improve at the plate and help the big league club.I really think he has a chance to. A lot of guys here were ready to dump Alexei after his slow start last year. I'm not comparing the two, but Lillibridge MAY contribute in some way. And how small he is, or how young he looks has nothing to do with any of it.

HebrewHammer
03-28-2009, 09:29 PM
Is it just me or does it seem like Lillibridge isn't very good at baseball? The more I see him play the more I think he's chosen the wrong profession. He strikes out a ton for a guy who doesn't have much power. I get the impression they want him to break camp with the big club, but I don't think he's going to stick past May.

oeo
03-28-2009, 10:20 PM
So let me make sure I understand what some appear to be saying.

Brent should make the team (however bad he is) because the Sox don't have a back up for the position?

Interesting logic.

You take guys with you that you need. You're not going to fill your bullpen up with lefties, bring a bench of all outfielders, take three catchers, etc.

If anybody gets hurt for any length of time they are going to have to make a trade anyway because Brent at this point doesn't appear capable of playing at the big league level.

Gordon Beckham...

George Bova always brought up the point that you make the team better by having the 25 best players you can on the roster and that even if it's the 25th player, if you can upgrade that spot, you upgrade the overall potential of the club.

How is that ever possible? Unless it so happens that those 25 guys fill all the team's needs over a long season, then it will never come to fruition.

I'd rather have Betemit as bad as he is defensively as the 24th or 25th guy because he is playing better then Brent and has done so over the course of his major league career.

Betemit is not going to be playing shortstop on a regular basis.

Betemit will make the team...:scratch:

Goodman6
03-28-2009, 11:04 PM
Well, Lillibridge had a good game today against the Dodgers. Hopefully, he will continue to improve at the plate and help the big league club.

With only 1 week left in Spring Training, today's game may have landed him the utility infielder's job. That double he hit in the gap in the 7th inning was probably the hardest ball he has hit all Spring. As I mentioned in a previous post, I, as well as others, have been disappointed in his play so far. But, hey, I am a White Sox fan and I want all of our players to do well. So, I agree with you and let's hope he can build off of today's performance and help the big league club. If not, then let's hope that KW and OG have a plan B to fill the utility infielder's role.

Lip Man 1
03-29-2009, 11:08 AM
OEO:

Ummmm yes.... Betemit will make the team based on his spring showing. You're joking with your comment right? right???

Regarding Beckham, the Sox are not going to rush him and screw him up. Remember you're boy Boone Logan? The same guy you said the Sox rushed up to the major leagues?

Lip

doublem23
03-29-2009, 11:14 AM
So let me make sure I understand what some appear to be saying.

Brent should make the team (however bad he is) because the Sox don't have a back up for the position?

Interesting logic.

If anybody gets hurt for any length of time they are going to have to make a trade anyway because Brent at this point doesn't appear capable of playing at the big league level.

George Bova always brought up the point that you make the team better by having the 25 best players you can on the roster and that even if it's the 25th player, if you can upgrade that spot, you upgrade the overall potential of the club.

I'd rather have Betemit as bad as he is defensively as the 24th or 25th guy because he is playing better then Brent and has done so over the course of his major league career.

Betemit is not going to be playing shortstop on a regular basis.

All not having a "back up" shortstop is going to do is stop Ozzie for playing as many goofy "match-up's" that he loves to do.

That in my book is NOT a bad thing.

Lip

Even hardened vets need a day off every now and then. Betemit likely will be the backup SS but he's brutal in the field.

Baseball's not like football or basketball where it's basically a sum of the talent of the entire team, you need to find the right mix of guys so sometimes you don't take the very best player you have if it means taking a guy who fits a specific role.

champagne030
03-29-2009, 11:30 AM
George Bova always brought up the point that you make the team better by having the 25 best players you can on the roster and that even if it's the 25th player, if you can upgrade that spot, you upgrade the overall potential of the club.

I'd rather have Betemit as bad as he is defensively as the 24th or 25th guy because he is playing better then Brent and has done so over the course of his major league career.

Betemit is not going to be playing shortstop on a regular basis.

All not having a "back up" shortstop is going to do is stop Ozzie for playing as many goofy "match-up's" that he loves to do.

That in my book is NOT a bad thing.

Lip

OEO:

Ummmm yes.... Betemit will make the team based on his spring showing. You're joking with your comment right? right???

Regarding Beckham, the Sox are not going to rush him and screw him up. Remember you're boy Boone Logan? The same guy you said the Sox rushed up to the major leagues?

Lip

You contradict yourself. Beckham would be the best player to be our backup middle infielder, but you understand that it's best for his development (well, relatively speaking considering our track record developing talent) to get everyday AB's down in the minors.

oeo
03-29-2009, 01:03 PM
OEO:

Ummmm yes.... Betemit will make the team based on his spring showing. You're joking with your comment right? right???

Joking about what? I said he was going to make the team. There's never been any question of that. I was scratching my head because I had no idea what the hell you were talking about. You said you would rather have Betemit, well...Betemit is already on the team.

Regarding Beckham, the Sox are not going to rush him and screw him up. Remember you're boy Boone Logan? The same guy you said the Sox rushed up to the major leagues?You love to compare guys that are in no way alike, don't you?

cards press box
03-29-2009, 06:08 PM
With only 1 week left in Spring Training, today's game may have landed him the utility infielder's job. That double he hit in the gap in the 7th inning was probably the hardest ball he has hit all Spring. As I mentioned in a previous post, I, as well as others, have been disappointed in his play so far. But, hey, I am a White Sox fan and I want all of our players to do well. So, I agree with you and let's hope he can build off of today's performance and help the big league club. If not, then let's hope that KW and OG have a plan B to fill the utility infielder's role.

Lillibridge went 3-4 against Arizona today with a double and an RBI. His spring batting average is now .273.

Lip Man 1
03-29-2009, 06:41 PM
OEO:

And your Boone Logan man crush is comparable to Munchman's over De Los Santos.

The Sox won't regret one iota losing either of these guys.

Lip

Craig Grebeck
03-29-2009, 07:24 PM
Lillibridge went 3-4 against Arizona today with a double and an RBI. His spring batting average is now .273.
Your point? He's simply overmatched at any level but AA. Check out his K/BB ratio.

oeo
03-29-2009, 09:35 PM
OEO:

And your Boone Logan man crush is comparable to Munchman's over De Los Santos.

The Sox won't regret one iota losing either of these guys.

Lip

:lol:

Yes, my "man crush", believing he will become a solid reliever is comparable to calling a guy at least 3 years away from the majors a future Hall of Famer. :rolling:

cards press box
03-29-2009, 10:30 PM
Your point? He's simply overmatched at any level but AA. Check out his K/BB ratio.

Ah, you seek a general theme for my posts in this thread. Very well. My points are as follows: (a) Brent Lillibridge went 3-4 against Arizona today with a double and an RBI, (b) his spring batting average is now .273 and (c) as far as I know, the Sox don't have Bert Campenaris, Bucky Dent or Alan Trammell waiting in the wings to back up Alexei Ramirez.

In fact, other than Lillibridge, the Sox don't have any shortstop to back up Ramirez. I know that Lillibridge's numbers last year were not any good. And, yes, his strikeout/walk ratio in 2007 and 2008 in the minors was not great. But in the spring training games I have seen, I see potential. Lillibridge is a good defender and gives the Sox flexibility and good glove off the bench at 2B, SS and CF. He also gives the Sox an excellent pinch runner in the late innings. So, even if Lillibridge doesn't hit great, he brings value to a major league bench. I still believe that he can develop into an effective major league slap hitter. The .273 minor league career average, the .352 minor league career OBP and the 128 stolen bases in parts of 4 minor league seasons (two of which were partial seasons) make me believe that this player has the potential to help the White Sox.


http://minors.baseball-reference.com/players.cgi?pid=8344

Craig Grebeck
03-29-2009, 10:33 PM
Ah, you seek a general theme for my posts in this thread. Very well. My points are as follows: (a) Brent Lillibridge went 3-4 against Arizona today with a double and an RBI, (b) his spring batting average is now .273 and (c) as far as I know, the Sox don't have Bert Campenaris, Bucky Dent or Alan Trammell waiting in the wings to back up Alexei Ramirez.

In fact, other than Lillibridge, the Sox don't have any shortstop to back up Ramirez. I know that Lillibridge's numbers last year were not any good. And, yes, his strikeout/walk ratio in 2007 and 2008 in the minors was not great. But in the spring training games I have seen, I see potential. Lillibridge is a good defender and gives the Sox flexibility and good glove off the bench at 2B, SS and CF. He also gives the Sox an excellent pinch runner in the late innings. So, even if Lillibridge doesn't hit great, he brings value to a major league bench. I still believe that he can develop into an effective major league slap hitter. The .273 minor league career average, the .352 minor league career OBP and the 128 stolen bases in parts of 4 minor league seasons (two of which were partial seasons) make me believe that this player has the potential to help the White Sox.


http://minors.baseball-reference.com/players.cgi?pid=8344
Looking at his career minor league numbers is a mistake. It's clear he is not equipped to handle advanced pitching.

cards press box
03-29-2009, 10:46 PM
Looking at his career minor league numbers is a mistake. It's clear he is not equipped to handle advanced pitching.

Looking at minor league numbers is a mistake? Minor league numbers are usually a good measure of success in the big leagues. If a guy can hit in the minors, then he usually can hit in the majors, too.

Bill James has long promoted a theory which he calls Major League Equivalency. Under this theory, minor league performance is a tool that can indicate future success in the majors. I have attached an April 2007 article from USA Today about James which discusses the theory.

I don't know what it is about Lillibridge's minor league career that makes you so completely convinced that he can contribute nothing of value in the majors. He had a bad year at AAA in 2007 but he had a very good year at AAA in 2006. He is still only 25 years old.

I realize that "the jury is still out" but I think he can help the White Sox.


http://www.usatoday.com/sports/baseball/2007-04-04-james-influential-sidebar_N.htm

Craig Grebeck
03-29-2009, 10:57 PM
Looking at minor league numbers is a mistake? Minor league numbers are usually a good measure of success in the big leagues. If a guy can hit in the minors, then he usually can hit in the majors, too.

Bill James has long promoted a theory which he calls Major League Equivalency. Under this theory, minor league performance is a tool that can indicate future success in the majors. I have attached an April 2007 article from USA Today about James which discusses the theory.

I don't know what it is about Lillibridge's minor league career that makes you so completely convinced that he can contribute nothing of value in the majors. He had a bad year at AAA in 2007 but he had a very good year at AAA in 2006. He is still only 25 years old.

I realize that "the jury is still out" but I think he can help the White Sox.


http://www.usatoday.com/sports/baseball/2007-04-04-james-influential-sidebar_N.htm
I said career minor league numbers, as in his aggregate numbers over the course of a few seasons in the minors. If anything, you should examine his progression (or in this case, regression) through the minors.

And I know who the hell Bill James is.

Lillibridge has shown total and utter ineptitude in his handling of the strike zone above A+ ball. That is not a good thing, and is far more indicative of future performance than your evaluation of him in spring training.

Flight #24
03-30-2009, 12:05 AM
Obviously the first thing to fix him is to teach him the proper spelling of his last name, he forgets the "t"s!

Seriously - I have absolutely no problem with a guy making the team based on strong D at a key position, and having good baserunning (i.e. pinch runner). As pressbox noted, those are skills you need on the bench. I'd much rather plug in a near-automatic out once every 7-10 games at SS if they're going to give me strong D than a butcher who might go 1-4. It's too key of a position and D there means too much to the team.

If they had a better option to back up at SS, that'd be fine. But Betemit is not it. Might as well say you'll have Fields back up at SS because he can hit. Unfortunately, Sox invested in Brent & Nix as their possible backup SSs and one got hurt and the other apparently can't hit.

cards press box
03-30-2009, 12:21 AM
I said career minor league numbers, as in his aggregate numbers over the course of a few seasons in the minors. If anything, you should examine his progression (or in this case, regression) through the minors.

And I know who the hell Bill James is.

Lillibridge has shown total and utter ineptitude in his handling of the strike zone above A+ ball. That is not a good thing, and is far more indicative of future performance than your evaluation of him in spring training.

First of all, congratulations on knowing who Bill James is. Well done.

Second, I am looking at all of Lillibridge's minor league numbers. In fact, that is precisely my point. I'm not throwing out Lillibridge's entire minor league career because of one bad year. If you set aside Lillibridge's season at Richmond in 2008 -- which, I admit, was not good -- his minor league numbers show promise. Yes, he struck out too much in 2007 and 2008. But let's see if the Sox can get him to cut down on his swing and hit line drives. You know, the Sox have had success taking other teams' top prospects (e.g., Gavin Floyd and Matt Thornton) and getting more out of them than their former clubs did. Maybe, the Sox can add Lillibridge to that list.

Frater Perdurabo
03-30-2009, 06:37 AM
First of all, congratulations on knowing who Bill James is. Well done.

Second, I am looking at all of Lillibridge's minor league numbers. In fact, that is precisely my point. I'm not throwing out Lillibridge's entire minor league career because of one bad year. If you set aside Lillibridge's season at Richmond in 2008 -- which, I admit, was not good -- his minor league numbers show promise. Yes, he struck out too much in 2007 and 2008. But let's see if the Sox can get him to cut down on his swing and hit line drives. You know, the Sox have had success taking other teams' top prospects (e.g., Gavin Floyd and Matt Thornton) and getting more out of them than their former clubs did. Maybe, the Sox can add Lillibridge to that list.

This is a well-reasoned, non-pollyana post. Your underlying thesis is, "Withhold judgment until comprehension is complete. And until then, retain a degree of optimism."

Unfortunately, other posters like to make themselves look and sound smart by making pronouncements as if they are the final, definitive word and no more comprehension or observation is necessary.

Carolina Kenny
03-30-2009, 11:28 AM
Dear Lilly,

Don't let the fans on this site get you down with all of their hating.

Just keep cutting down on your swing and work really hard. Ozzie loves speed and you are the only other good defensive reserve in camp.

Don't forget to wash behind your ears.

Love,
Mom

Craig Grebeck
03-30-2009, 02:12 PM
First of all, congratulations on knowing who Bill James is. Well done.

Second, I am looking at all of Lillibridge's minor league numbers. In fact, that is precisely my point. I'm not throwing out Lillibridge's entire minor league career because of one bad year. If you set aside Lillibridge's season at Richmond in 2008 -- which, I admit, was not good -- his minor league numbers show promise. Yes, he struck out too much in 2007 and 2008. But let's see if the Sox can get him to cut down on his swing and hit line drives. You know, the Sox have had success taking other teams' top prospects (e.g., Gavin Floyd and Matt Thornton) and getting more out of them than their former clubs did. Maybe, the Sox can add Lillibridge to that list.
Apples and oranges. This is a useless argument. There are players who thrive in the lower levels of the minor leagues, then fizzle out when they start facing pitchers with more control/command/talent than A/A+ fodder. Lillibridge is exactly this kind of player. He got by in the lower levels, and was absolutely exposed in the higher levels of the minor leagues.

Point being, look at his spring training K/BB ratio. Kid is lost. Expecting anything out of him is too much at this point. He's a poor, poor, poor man's Pablo Ozuna with the bat. Sure, his glove will play, but I'll be shocked if he's still in baseball by age 30.

I apologize for the hostility regarding Bill James. It just seemed rather odd and out of place to give me a lecture on major/minor league equivalencies.

Unfortunately, other posters like to make themselves look and sound smart by making pronouncements as if they are the final, definitive word and no more comprehension or observation is necessary.
I'm not trying to look or sound smart. I truly believe Lillibridge will be worthless with the stick. Absolutely terrible. And Ozzie will lead him off some days. That is unimaginably stupid.

Frater Perdurabo
03-30-2009, 02:20 PM
I'm not trying to look or sound smart. I truly believe Lillibridge will be worthless with the stick. Absolutely terrible. And Ozzie will lead him off some days. That is unimaginably stupid.

And I truly believe - based on the evidence I have read - that many of your posts take on a decidedly negative cast about other posters' ideas and so many young players. While I don't advocate wearing rose-colored glasses, you seem to be wearing "carnage visors." It's all good though. As for me, I'm going to wait and see on Lillibridge, just as I am continuing to wait and see on Richard and BA, among others.
:cool:

spawn
03-30-2009, 02:20 PM
If you are listening my little, little bridge. If you can read this. Get yourself a bottle bat,crunch down real real low and put the ball in play.

Don't take huge cuts trying to kill the ball, just dump the ball behind first base and you will be on second base before you know it.

If you are listening my little, little, bridge-just get your butt on base any way you can.

Ozzie will appreciate it and you will get to play more often, cause Ozzie loves speed.

Love,
Mom
http://www.globalpov.com/images/stewie.gif

Aha ha ha. Oh, gosh that's funny. That's really funny. Do you write your own material? Do you? Because that is so fresh. What a clever, smart boy you must be, to come up with a joke like that all by yourself. Mmm, that's so fresh too. Any titanic jokes you want to throw at me while we're hitting these at the height of their popularity? Hmm? Cause... I'm here. God you're SO funny.

Craig Grebeck
03-30-2009, 02:23 PM
And I truly believe - based on the evidence I have read - that many of your posts take on a decidedly negative cast about other posters' ideas and so many young players. While I don't advocate wearing rose-colored glasses, you seem to be wearing "carnage visors." It's all good though. As for me, I'm going to wait and see on Lillibridge, just as I am continuing to wait and see on Richard and BA, among others.
:cool:
I am optimistic about those who possess the talent/skills to play on the major league level (above the 25th man role that Lillibridge will assume). Look into my posting history; you will find that I've displayed optimism about Quentin, Richard, Egbert, Poreda and others who display a level of baseball competence above the A/A+ level. Lillibridge is simply not that kind of player. I'm not going to be rosy solely because he is a member of this organization.

cards press box
03-30-2009, 03:02 PM
This is a well-reasoned, non-pollyana post. Your underlying thesis is, "Withhold judgment until comprehension is complete. And until then, retain a degree of optimism."

Unfortunately, other posters like to make themselves look and sound smart by making pronouncements as if they are the final, definitive word and no more comprehension or observation is necessary.

Thank you for the compliment. Given Lillibridge's age and minor league background, I think he can develop into a good major league player. Of course, I don't know for sure whether that will happen but I don't know for sure that it won't happen, either.

Apples and oranges. This is a useless argument.

Why is the argument about Major League Equivalency "apples and oranges"? You presume that Lillibridge had a bad year at Richmond in 2008 because he was overmatched? How do you know? Isn't it possible that he just didn't play well that year or that he had mechanical flaws in his swing?

The argument is not useless. What is useless is declaring one absolute, irrefutable conclusion based upon, as Frater observed, incomplete information. The Sox will be able to draw more informed conclusions on Lillibridge and his future in the majors the more they see him play. He may, as you suggest, be the poor man's Pablo Ozuna. Or he may be a sup-sub who fills in at three key defensive positions,* steals bases and gives the Sox some needed flexibility. Let's see what happens.

*Lillibridge's ability to play CF, as well as SS and 2B, may make it easier for the Sox to acquire another outfielder and shore up the CF position.

SoxSpeed22
03-30-2009, 03:12 PM
When Kenny Williams traded for Lillibridge, he stated that there was a mechanical flaw in his swing which was one of the causes for his struggles that started at AA. I think that this is something that could take some time to fix. I would keep him as a utility-man who would come in late in the game as a defensive replacement, but at the same time, I wouldn't be surprised if he spends some time in Charlotte just to get more at-bats.

Craig Grebeck
03-30-2009, 03:15 PM
Thank you for the compliment. Given Lillibridge's age and minor league background, I think he can develop into a good major league player. Of course, I don't know for sure whether that will happen but I don't know for sure that it won't happen, either.



Why is the argument about Major League Equivalency "apples and oranges"? You presume that Lillibridge had a bad year at Richmond in 2008 because he was overmatched? How do you know? Isn't it possible that he just didn't play well that year or that he had mechanical flaws in his swing?

The argument is not useless. What is useless is declaring one absolute, irrefutable conclusion based upon, as Frater observed, incomplete information. The Sox will be able to draw more informed conclusions on Lillibridge and his future in the majors the more they see him play. He may, as you suggest, be the poor man's Pablo Ozuna. Or he may be a sup-sub who fills in at three key defensive positions,* steals bases and gives the Sox some needed flexibility. Let's see what happens.

*Lillibridge's ability to play CF, as well as SS and 2B, may make it easier for the Sox to acquire another outfielder and shore up the CF position.
How do I know he was overmatched? Sweet lord. I looked up his ****ing K/BB ratio, and I saw it was astronomically worse than his previous production in the lower levels. Like terrible. It's pretty clear that he can't handle the higher levels. His performance dictates this.

I don't care if Lillibridge is on the roster, batting ninth once a week, and starting at SS. If he leads off, it just demonstrates an organizational ineptitude regarding batting order.

SoxSpeed22
03-30-2009, 03:34 PM
Right, because the BB/K ratio is the be-all, end-all towards how good a hitter you are. That information is obscure. Last year, Derek Jeter's BB/K ratio was .61 and Jacoby Ellsbury's BB/K ratio was .51 last year, Ryan Braun had a .33, and nobody considers both of them to be bad hitters.
Lillibridge may have problems with hitting with 2 strikes, he also may have problems with his swing, as I mentioned before. The scouting reports out there also say that he needs to improve his BB/K ratio, it doesn't tell the whole story. He also had a low batting average. If he was getting a lot of hits, and strikeouts, then that's different. If you have seen him play, which I have not, and then use the stats, that would be a more complete analysis.

jabrch
03-30-2009, 03:58 PM
The ability to determine the future worth of a young kid based on a spreadsheet would be tremendously valuable - if such a thing existed.

Since it doesn't - the crap spewed from people who have such a small sample size of having actually watched these guys play, and have no experience in actually evaluating talent of potential major league baseball players is worth less than the bandwidth it consumes. Lillibridge may or may not be able to hit at a level to play as a role player or a starter. But there is no way anyone can make a conclusive arguement based on the lack of data points that some people have here.

He has hit well in the minors. He has some of the skills needed to hit well at the major league level. He is 25 years old. Nobody here, with any degree of certainty, can draw a conclusion that he is worthless any more than they can that he is a star in the making. That won't stop people from trying to look smart. And it won't stop most people from realizing they are not.

MtGrnwdSoxFan
03-30-2009, 04:20 PM
http://www.globalpov.com/images/stewie.gif

Aha ha ha. Oh, gosh that's funny. That's really funny. Do you write your own material? Do you? Because that is so fresh. What a clever, smart boy you must be, to come up with a joke like that all by yourself. Mmm, that's so fresh too. Any titanic jokes you want to throw at me while we're hitting these at the height of their popularity? Hmm? Cause... I'm here. God you're SO funny.

I hate Family Guy with a passion, but that little exchange between Stewie and (was it Olivia?) cracked me up. Well played.

Also, as far as taking Floyd and Thornton and turning them into usable players, I think it's because Don Cooper is much better at his job than Greg Walker is at his. He took two 'busts' and developed them into key members of the Sox' pitching corps. Walker, not so much on the hitting spectrum.

Quentin was a rare instance of a hitting prospect blossoming under the Sox, but it was a matter of when, not if, with him.

johnnyg83
03-30-2009, 04:30 PM
Dear Lilly,

Don't forget to wash behind your ears.




He'll need ample amounts of soap.

cards press box
03-30-2009, 04:37 PM
How do I know he was overmatched? Sweet lord. I looked up his ****ing K/BB ratio, and I saw it was astronomically worse than his previous production in the lower levels. Like terrible. It's pretty clear that he can't handle the higher levels. His performance dictates this.

So, any player with a flaw in his mechanics should just immediately retire on the spot, right? After all, neither Lillibridge nor any other batter can ever fix a mechanical problem, so why try? As you say, "it's pretty clear that he can't handle the higher levels," so what's the point?

Before castigating everyone who disagrees with you, could you just wait and see if the Sox can straighten out the guy's swing?

WhiteSox5187
03-30-2009, 06:33 PM
I am optimistic about those who possess the talent/skills to play on the major league level (above the 25th man role that Lillibridge will assume). Look into my posting history; you will find that I've displayed optimism about Quentin, Richard, Egbert, Poreda and others who display a level of baseball competence above the A/A+ level. Lillibridge is simply not that kind of player. I'm not going to be rosy solely because he is a member of this organization.
I think the way you judge "the talent/skills" is skewed as you seem to lean heavily towards OPS and OPS+ and other bull**** power stats. I can also remember you clearly favoring us holding onto Fields last year instead of possibly trading him for Roberts by saying something along the lines that if we offered that trade straight up, the Orioles would be dancing for joy and that Roberts was useless as his career OPS is .771, this disregards the fact that some guys are not on the team for power, but rather to get on base and cause trouble there. You also liked the Swisher for Gio, DLS and Sweeney trade and cited Swisher's power. This doesn't really have anything to do with Lillibrige but you dismiss guys who can contribute mightly to winning in ways that can not be measured in terms of stats or are not useful in terms of fantasy baseball.

Craig Grebeck
03-31-2009, 09:10 AM
I think the way you judge "the talent/skills" is skewed as you seem to lean heavily towards OPS and OPS+ and other bull**** power stats. I can also remember you clearly favoring us holding onto Fields last year instead of possibly trading him for Roberts by saying something along the lines that if we offered that trade straight up, the Orioles would be dancing for joy and that Roberts was useless as his career OPS is .771, this disregards the fact that some guys are not on the team for power, but rather to get on base and cause trouble there. You also liked the Swisher for Gio, DLS and Sweeney trade and cited Swisher's power. This doesn't really have anything to do with Lillibrige but you dismiss guys who can contribute mightly to winning in ways that can not be measured in terms of stats or are not useful in terms of fantasy baseball.
In the post you are referencing, I stated that a Roberts for Fields swap made little sense given the Orioles' lack of leverage -- which stemmed from the Mitchell Report. I also wanted to see more of Richar. Of course, Richar ended up being a pretty awful player and was sent packing. I was wrong.

Did I like the Swisher deal? Hell yes. Mainly because of patience, not power.

Also, I really don't think you understand what fantasy baseball is. Seriously. You reference it with regards to my posts quite a bit. For one, I don't even play. For another, counting stats are used predominantly in fantasy. I prefer rate stats, you know, the stats you think are bull****.

Craig Grebeck
03-31-2009, 09:11 AM
So, any player with a flaw in his mechanics should just immediately retire on the spot, right? After all, neither Lillibridge nor any other batter can ever fix a mechanical problem, so why try? As you say, "it's pretty clear that he can't handle the higher levels," so what's the point?

Before castigating everyone who disagrees with you, could you just wait and see if the Sox can straighten out the guy's swing?
Probably because I honestly don't believe he has a correctable flaw. More likely than not, he got through the lower levels with a poor approach/swing due to the fact that pitchers lacked command/control, and he exposed them. As he rose through the minors, he became significantly worse.

Like I said, I guess he can be the 25th man for the time being, but he shouldn't bat lead off when he does play. Will he? I bet.

Mohoney
04-01-2009, 05:57 AM
Until Nix returns, anyway.

/crosses fingers

I agree with this. Nix looks like the best of the bunch, and I would like to see him get some major league at bats, especially considering that we got him for nothing.

4 points
04-04-2009, 04:49 AM
Apples and oranges. This is a useless argument. There are players who thrive in the lower levels of the minor leagues, then fizzle out when they start facing pitchers with more control/command/talent than A/A+ fodder. Lillibridge is exactly this kind of player. He got by in the lower levels, and was absolutely exposed in the higher levels of the minor leagues.

Point being, look at his spring training K/BB ratio. Kid is lost. Expecting anything out of him is too much at this point. He's a poor, poor, poor man's Pablo Ozuna with the bat. Sure, his glove will play, but I'll be shocked if he's still in baseball by age 30.

I apologize for the hostility regarding Bill James. It just seemed rather odd and out of place to give me a lecture on major/minor league equivalencies.


I'm not trying to look or sound smart. I truly believe Lillibridge will be worthless with the stick. Absolutely terrible. And Ozzie will lead him off some days. That is unimaginably stupid.

Ozzie won`t lead him off, he`s definately a "Wiseguy".:bandance: