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sunofgold
03-24-2009, 04:07 PM
There is a chance the Tigers could release him. If this happens, White Sox should sign him to a minor league contract.

EnglishChiSox
03-24-2009, 04:09 PM
In before the Coop'll fix him.

Rocky Soprano
03-24-2009, 04:10 PM
I knew this thread was going to happen.

kittle42
03-24-2009, 04:10 PM
There is a chance the Tigers could release him. If this happens, White Sox should sign him to a minor league contract.

Good point. Maybe it will motivate our minor league starters to have a pitcher much worse than they are on the staff.

Taliesinrk
03-24-2009, 04:13 PM
I'd rather have Freddy Garcia now that he's been sent to the minors...

whitesox901
03-24-2009, 04:15 PM
no

spawn
03-24-2009, 04:16 PM
This thread is suppose to be in teal, right?

sunofgold
03-24-2009, 04:18 PM
Just a minor league contract. Like we did with
Van Benschoten!


No risk. Try to turn him around. If he cannot pitch well anymore, convert him into a fielder (aka Ankiel) b/c Willis is a pretty good hitter.

jabrch
03-24-2009, 04:20 PM
Just the thought of this is funny...the Tigers really screwed the pooch on this one.

sullythered
03-24-2009, 04:21 PM
What the hell? Nodody yet? Ok, I'll do it...

Coop'll fix 'em.

Rocky Soprano
03-24-2009, 04:24 PM
What the hell? Nodody yet? Ok, I'll do it...

Coop'll fix 'em.

Read the 2nd post.

doublem23
03-24-2009, 04:26 PM
Just a minor league contract. Like we did with
Van Benschoten!


No risk. Try to turn him around. If he cannot pitch well anymore, convert him into a fielder (aka Ankiel) b/c Willis is a pretty good hitter.

Except all the wasted playing time, coach's time, effort, and money wasted on a guy who's completely washed up.

JermaineDye05
03-24-2009, 04:28 PM
Sad but true, it appears that Willis doesn't have it anymore. To think just a couple years ago he was an ace.

sunofgold
03-24-2009, 04:31 PM
Minor league contract. Small bucks there. Tigers are still paying him the big bucks.

Wasted time for the coaches? Could say that about any minor league player who doesn't make it to the majors.

The guy could hit . Look at Ankiel's batting numbers when he was a pitcher and they are comparable to Willis' numbers. If Willis truly cannot find the strike zone anymore, somebody should think about moving him to first base and let him work on his hitting.

CWSpalehoseCWS
03-24-2009, 04:36 PM
I think signing him and putting him in Triple-AAA would only hurt our minor league starters by having him waste a rotation spot.

sunofgold
03-24-2009, 04:45 PM
He could be a starter in AA or a reliever in AAA or a hitter in any A.

SoxGirl4Life
03-24-2009, 04:49 PM
Are you nuts???

Remember his almost "no hitter" against us last spring? He couldn't get within the same zip code as home plate!

FedEx227
03-24-2009, 04:51 PM
Sad but true, it appears that Willis doesn't have it anymore. To think just a couple years ago he was an ace.

The book was out on him.

Don't swing.

People chased his stuff early in his career, then it soon became obvious that more times then not it's going to be a ball.

doublem23
03-24-2009, 04:54 PM
Minor league contract. Small bucks there. Tigers are still paying him the big bucks.

Wasted time for the coaches? Could say that about any minor league player who doesn't make it to the majors.

The guy could hit . Look at Ankiel's batting numbers when he was a pitcher and they are comparable to Willis' numbers. If Willis truly cannot find the strike zone anymore, somebody should think about moving him to first base and let him work on his hitting.

Yes, but there's still time to develop those guys. Obviously the majority of minor league players don't make it to the MLB but that's no reason to keep working. If Dontrelle Willis weren't a big name, no one would be clamoring for this.

And Ankiel, if you remember, was roiding it up.

getonbckthr
03-24-2009, 05:02 PM
Just the thought of this is funny...the Tigers really screwed the pooch on this one.
Ya but the key was getting Cabrera which is wht they did.

sullythered
03-24-2009, 05:20 PM
Read the 2nd post.
I think maybe you should read the second post. It says "In before the 'coop'll fix him." Then nobody actually said Coop'll fix him.

Britt Burns
03-24-2009, 05:23 PM
I would do it just in case he can turn it around, even as a LOOGY type of pitcher. The irony of the Tigers shelling out all but a fraction of his salary while he's helping us win games would be too delicious. I doubt he can turn it around, but if the Sox can salvage him as a Boone-Logan type who actually gets outs, what's the harm?

DumpJerry
03-24-2009, 05:39 PM
Not even Coop can fix him.

He was washed up before the Tigers got him.

goon
03-24-2009, 05:40 PM
If he'd sign a minor league contract, it makes sense to me.

Boondock Saint
03-24-2009, 06:12 PM
I'd rather spend that minor league contract on someone that might one day contribute to the team on any level.

oeo
03-24-2009, 06:18 PM
Ya but the key was getting Cabrera which is wht they did.

They signed him to an extension afterwards...

102605
03-24-2009, 06:23 PM
Sign him to play 1B or 3B in Rookie League. We already know he can hit.

johnnyg83
03-24-2009, 06:34 PM
Sign him to play 1B or 3B in Rookie League. We already know he can hit.

Didn't we already try a LH 3b with Mike Squires?

palehozenychicty
03-24-2009, 06:57 PM
The book was out on him.

Don't swing.

People chased his stuff early in his career, then it soon became obvious that more times then not it's going to be a ball.


It's really sad, too. He was one of my favorite players. The D-Train has been derailed.

thomas35forever
03-24-2009, 06:58 PM
No thanks. We know he's already lost his control. If he had to go all the way down to A, I think his best days are behind him. I don't think even a minor league contract would do the team justice.

Lip Man 1
03-24-2009, 07:13 PM
Johnny:

Yes. Squires also caught in a game.

Lip

Heffalump
03-24-2009, 07:29 PM
There is a chance the Tigers could release him. If this happens, White Sox should sign him to a minor league contract.


Why? Do we need another peanut vendor in AAA?

Please stop with these insane garbage picking ideas.

April 6th where are you???

PaleHoser
03-24-2009, 10:41 PM
Ya but the key was getting Cabrera which is wht they did.

It's a crying shame that Cabrera's going to cost the Tigers $30M more than they thought when you factor in the extension they gave Willis.

soxinem1
03-24-2009, 11:08 PM
I'm 50/50 on the issue. He could get a minor league deal and get about 10-12 starts in AA and AAA. If he still blows, he can take a hike.

I remember several years ago when the LAD cut Hideo Nomo loose, then he bounced to NYM, and wound up in AAA with CHC.

They let him go and he signed a small deal with MIL, and went on to win 12 games, then had several more seasons pitching effectively.

Willis is a lot younger than Nomo was at that time, and a lefty to boot.

I'm not normally in the 'pick up released/cut players' crowd, but Dontrelle did better than Gavin Floyd in 2007. Maybe a more low-key situation can make him effective again.

Chrisaway
03-24-2009, 11:55 PM
I'd rather give Jim Parque another shot than Willis.
http://i40.photobucket.com/albums/e209/feliciajoy44/109-gob-magic2.jpg?t=1237956896CMON!!!

WhiteSox5187
03-25-2009, 01:11 AM
The book was out on him.

Don't swing.

People chased his stuff early in his career, then it soon became obvious that more times then not it's going to be a ball.
I think if it were just a case of guys chasing pitches, he would have stopped being effective midway thru 2003. He was pretty good in '04 and great in '05 and '06. I don't really know what happened to him since. Maybe he blew out his arm or maybe that funky motion finally caught up to him. There are a lot of moving parts in that delivery.

Too bad, I liked him.

sunofgold
03-25-2009, 10:22 AM
Not much talk though about converting him to a position player. He hit very well as a pitcher. Would only improve if he practiced and focused on hitting everyday.

forrestg
03-25-2009, 11:36 AM
How about we get Dontrelle to convert him to a left handed center fielder who can lead off for us so as we don't have to use Wise or Owens.

BleacherBandit
03-25-2009, 11:36 AM
Not much talk though about converting him to a position player. He hit very well as a pitcher. Would only improve if he practiced and focused on hitting everyday.

Why waste the time?

goon
03-25-2009, 12:20 PM
According to an article I just read about Willis, he was hitting 92 on the gun in his last appearance. The guy is going to be 27 in May and has already posted several great seasons in the league, what would be the harm in giving him a shot for a minor league contract? If the Tigers release him, some team will most definitely sign him.

Foulke You
03-25-2009, 03:41 PM
I'm no expert but for a pitcher to fall as fast as Dontrelle did in such a short period of time, it has to be one of two things: Injuries and mechanics. I think initially, Dontrelle had some nagging injuries and by the time he came back, his mechanics were so far out of whack that they stayed that way. When we saw him last year at The Cell, he looked like a deer in the headlights and couldn't find the strike zone with a road map. Evidently, Detroit's coaching staff couldn't figure out the problem. If he is still hitting 92mph on the gun, some team is going to sign him and see if they can figure out how to fix him mechanically. It wouldn't surprise me if some team figures out his problem and we see Dontrelle rise again one day. I always liked him so I'm rooting for it to happen. Hopefully it happens in the NL where he can't hurt us.

BadBobbyJenks
03-25-2009, 06:50 PM
Dontrelle Willis sucks why are we at 3 pages on this already?

oeo
03-25-2009, 06:55 PM
According to an article I just read about Willis, he was hitting 92 on the gun in his last appearance. The guy is going to be 27 in May and has already posted several great seasons in the league, what would be the harm in giving him a shot for a minor league contract? If the Tigers release him, some team will most definitely sign him.

He can't throw strikes, that's his problem.

Oblong
03-25-2009, 07:24 PM
There seems to be a line of thought that if Willis refuses a minor league assignment that the Tigers are no longer obligated to pay him his $22 million. Jayson Stark mentioned it in a column.

But seeing as $22 million is more than he's made in hi career combined so far, I think he'll put up with the bus rides for 2 years.

I called Willis garbage when he was still in Florida. I figured he was a throw in by Florida in order to get Cabrera because they didn't want to pay him. But then the extension. Have no idea what Dombrowski and Co. were thinking.

RockJock07
03-25-2009, 10:00 PM
Just the thought of this is funny...the Tigers really screwed the pooch on this one.

Yeah for sure considering the prospects they gave up for both him and Cabrera. Cameron Maybin is as solid as they get, the Marlins seem to know when the right time is to sell high.

Getting Hanley and Maybin for players on the decline was brilliant!

DSpivack
03-25-2009, 10:31 PM
Yeah for sure considering the prospects they gave up for both him and Cabrera. Cameron Maybin is as solid as they get, the Marlins seem to know when the right time is to sell high.

Getting Hanley and Maybin for players on the decline was brilliant!

It's not like they didn't have to give up anything. They get Hanley by trading Beckett and Lowell to the Red Sox, and got Maybin by trading away Miguel Cabrera, who is among the best hitters in baseball.

103 screwball
03-25-2009, 10:38 PM
Why not? Fix him and put him in the bullpen and you have another pinch hitter to choose from as well. Would Ozzie know him from the Marlin days?

Props to KW for not giving up the farm and making the same type of deal that Detroit did. Instead, KW came back with The Carlos Quentin.

DSpivack
03-25-2009, 10:41 PM
Why not? Fix him and put him in the bullpen and you have another pinch hitter to choose from as well. Would Ozzie know him from the Marlin days?

Props to KW for not giving up the farm and making the same type of deal that Detroit did. Instead, KW came back with The Carlos Quentin.

It still was a good deal for them. The questionable move was not in trading for Miguel Cabrera, but in giving Dontrelle an extension. That boggled me at the time, and has turned out to hurt them.

whitesox901
03-25-2009, 10:59 PM
Dontrelle Willis sucks why are we at 3 pages on this already?

good question

BadBobbyJenks
03-26-2009, 12:29 AM
It was and still is a great trade for the Tigers.

The mistake was inking Dontrelle Willis to an extension before he ever threw a pitch in the American League. There is no defending that decision.

MtGrnwdSoxFan
03-26-2009, 04:49 AM
It was and still is a great trade for the Tigers.

The mistake was inking Dontrelle Willis to an extension before he ever threw a pitch in the American League. There is no defending that decision.

Before the trade, they were a year removed from a WS appearance, and had a solid year in '07, missing the playoffs, but not by much.

After they made it, they've managed to wrestle fifth place away from the Kansas City Royals, and that's almost as hard as winning the AL Central. Their owner has nixed any more spending, and Dombrowski is trying to shave as much payroll as he can.

Quite a far cry from the "1000 Run Wonders" and all the "Tigers = 2008 World Series Champions" predictions we kept hearing about. Scoring 1000 runs doesn't mean anything if your pitching gives up 1300. That Tiger pitching staff, aside from Galarraga, was the most horrendous collection of pitchers I've ever seen.

I mean, sure, adding a 25-year old masher that can't help but hit .300-35-120 will help any club, but the impact is nullified somewhat when you mortgage the farm to do it, and that's precisely what the Tigers did. Now, the Tigers have a depleted farm system, which wouldn't be a big deal if most of their players were in their primes, but most of the big producers on the Tigers are on the wrong side of 30...really bad timing to have a bare farm system.

TheVulture
03-26-2009, 08:01 AM
According to baseball reference, Willis' most similar pitcher is Britt Burns. I think that's fitting.

goon
03-26-2009, 10:52 AM
He can't throw strikes, that's his problem.

That's something that has a decent chance of being fixed though. If he lost velocity or was plagued by injuries, then obviously no, why take a chance on him.

Foulke You
03-26-2009, 01:46 PM
Dontrelle Willis sucks why are we at 3 pages on this already?
Let's see, a former all-star pitcher for the Marlins was picked up by a big division rival who then promptly gives him an inexplicable 3 year extension for big money last year. He then completely melts down and can't throw strikes anymore and might be playing in the minors or released soon for other teams to take a crack at figuring out how to return the guy back to his all-star form. The White Sox (the team which this website was formed to discuss) have a history of helping young pitchers find success at the big league level. You're right, there is nothing to discuss here. Let's all start another Brian Anderson thread instead. Seriously, I'm not picking on just you here BadBobby, but sometimes people on WSI complain about the strangest things.

sunofgold
03-26-2009, 07:43 PM
The irony is that Bobby Jenks was once a pitcher that nobody wanted. We claimed him off waivers. White Sox thought that they could get him back on track and they did.

How about Matt Thorton? He was out of options and Mariners didn't want him. Nobody else must have either b/c we only had to give up Borchard for him.

How about Carlos Quentin before 2008? Don't think too many team were fighting for him.

AJ before 2005? Nobody wanted him b/c they thought he had a bad attitude. Actually, AJ had to plead his case, but KW gave him a chance.

Should always discuss and look at moves like these. Seems like KW and White Sox management/scouts are good at moves like these. Find that guy (with potential) nobody wants or everybody has given up on.

doublem23
03-26-2009, 07:53 PM
The irony is that Bobby Jenks was once a pitcher that nobody wanted. We claimed him off waivers. White Sox thought that they could get him back on track and they did.

How about Matt Thorton? He was out of options and Mariners didn't want him. Nobody else must have either b/c we only had to give up Borchard for him.

How about Carlos Quentin before 2008? Don't think too many team were fighting for him.

AJ before 2005? Nobody wanted him b/c they thought he had a bad attitude. Actually, AJ had to plead his case, but KW gave him a chance.

Should always discuss and look at moves like these. Seems like KW and White Sox management/scouts are good are moves like these. Find that guy nobody wants or everybody has given up on.

Thornton and Quentin were both 1st round draft picks and were top prospects in both their prospective organizations. Thornton was let go because the M's were tired of waiting for him to develop into a starter and the D'backs gave up on Quentin because they have a plethora of outfielders and TCQ has a habit of getting hurt. Jenks' career was nearly derailed by off the field issues. Maybe nobody wanted AJ, but it was never about his skill, only his "attitude." Dontrelle, on the other hand, couldn't hit a barn right now. He's toast.

oeo
03-26-2009, 08:12 PM
Thornton was let go because the M's were tired of waiting for him to develop into a starter

Actually, Thornton couldn't throw strikes.

sunofgold
03-26-2009, 10:18 PM
Actually, Thornton couldn't throw strikes.

And that is the problem Willis is having. Neither guy lacked the talent. Neither one had any arm injuries.

I believe Cooper saw tapes of Thornton and saw something that he could correct. I am not saying that he or the pitching coaches could definitely do something with Willis, but maybe they could.

If they see something that they might be able to correct, they should try to get him. It would only be a minor league contract.

Detroit has to release Willis first though...hahaha...which I hope they do. However, they are out a lot of cash if they do. I would give Willis a shot over Van Benshoten.

DirtySox
03-29-2009, 10:58 AM
http://blog.mlive.com/cutoffman/2009/03/dontrelle_willis_to_dl_with_an.html

Willis is now on the DL with an anxiety disorder.

DumpJerry
03-29-2009, 11:02 AM
http://blog.mlive.com/cutoffman/2009/03/dontrelle_willis_to_dl_with_an.html

Willis is now on the DL with an anxiety disorder.
I thought he was lurking this thread.......

soxinem1
03-29-2009, 11:19 AM
According to baseball reference, Willis' most similar pitcher is Britt Burns. I think that's fitting.

Hoss had his career end due to injuries, not anxiety. And Willis is not done yet.

Britt Burns had one of the best fastballs in MLB, Willis never came close. He also won 18 games in his last season. Not a good comparision.

SoxGirl4Life
03-29-2009, 05:42 PM
Hoss had his career end due to injuries, not anxiety. And Willis is not done yet.

Britt Burns had one of the best fastballs in MLB, Willis never came close. He also won 18 games in his last season. Not a good comparision.

My 11 year-old self had such a crush on Britt Burns.. lol
Don't even remember what he looked like, tho..I was impressed by his pitching!

SoxyStu
03-29-2009, 06:09 PM
http://blog.mlive.com/cutoffman/2009/03/dontrelle_willis_to_dl_with_an.html

Willis is now on the DL with an anxiety disorder.

I didn't know that an anxiety disorder could be detected by blood until now. Interesting.

It is sad he felt obligated (my words) to make a public statement about not being crazy, etc. Anxiety does not equal crazy.

Good luck to him.

gaelhound
03-29-2009, 06:34 PM
Once a Cub, Always a Loser

DSpivack
03-29-2009, 06:49 PM
I didn't know that an anxiety disorder could be detected by blood until now. Interesting.

It is sad he felt obligated (my words) to make a public statement about not being crazy, etc. Anxiety does not equal crazy.

Good luck to him.

Where did you see anything about that?

SoxyStu
03-29-2009, 07:22 PM
Where did you see anything about that?

http://mlb.mlb.com/news/article.jsp?ymd=20090329&content_id=4083896&vkey=news_mlb&fext=.jsp&c_id=mlb

Googled it also - Hebrew college has a site regarding it, too.

DSpivack
03-29-2009, 07:59 PM
http://mlb.mlb.com/news/article.jsp?ymd=20090329&content_id=4083896&vkey=news_mlb&fext=.jsp&c_id=mlb

Googled it also - Hebrew college has a site regarding it, too.

Huh, odd.

sunofgold
03-29-2009, 09:01 PM
Not sure how you detect anxiety disorder from blood samples? Can Willis has something similar to hyperactivity (in children). Like a guy getting too amped up, too excited? Anxiety is really a broad term.

Not an expert. Also, don't know how this is treated and how effective is treated.

Nonetheless, the article says that Willis can refuse to go to the minors and then he becomes a free agent. Or the Tigers can release him.

Thus, there remains a chance that Willis will be available. Guess that we have to wait 15 days to see what happens next.

jabrch
03-29-2009, 09:08 PM
http://blog.mlive.com/cutoffman/2009/03/dontrelle_willis_to_dl_with_an.html

Willis is now on the DL with an anxiety disorder.


Nervous that he's going to get cut?

BadBobbyJenks
03-29-2009, 09:08 PM
Let's see, a former all-star pitcher for the Marlins was picked up by a big division rival who then promptly gives him an inexplicable 3 year extension for big money last year. He then completely melts down and can't throw strikes anymore and might be playing in the minors or released soon for other teams to take a crack at figuring out how to return the guy back to his all-star form. The White Sox (the team which this website was formed to discuss) have a history of helping young pitchers find success at the big league level. You're right, there is nothing to discuss here. Let's all start another Brian Anderson thread instead. Seriously, I'm not picking on just you here BadBobby, but sometimes people on WSI complain about the strangest things.

But this isn't a young guy who never has put it together or all of a sudden lost it. He has declined each year for 3 years and last year he was a complete mess who could not get guys out in the minors. I am not complaining about the thread, but trying to understand what there is to talk about other than the fact that Dontrelle Willis is not very good at pitching.

Foulke You
03-30-2009, 09:35 AM
But this isn't a young guy who never has put it together or all of a sudden lost it. He has declined each year for 3 years and last year he was a complete mess who could not get guys out in the minors. I am not complaining about the thread, but trying to understand what there is to talk about other than the fact that Dontrelle Willis is not very good at pitching.
If you have a look at Dontrelle's stats you'll see that he had two good seasons ('03 and '05), he had two average seasons ('04 and '06), and one and a half bad seasons ('07 and the little time he had in '08). From 2003 to 2007 he averaged over 200 innings pitched so he was a work horse even in years he wasn't as productive. At his worst, Dontrelle was like Javy and at his best, he was far better than that winning 22 games.

The 2008 numbers seem to be the aberration to me. He simply fell apart in 2008. WHIP and E.R.A. almost doubled from previous years. This doesn't seem to be a pitcher who was on a slow decline and never knew how to pitch but more of a young guy who struggled to find consistency at the big league level and then developed a huge mechanics problem after a bout of injuries to go with it. You don't give up on left handers who throw as hard as Dontrelle when they are only 27 years old without giving him as many chances as possible. Obviously, there is a chance that he'll never find it again but I wouldn't blame any GM for giving it a try.

http://www.baseball-reference.com/w/willido03.shtml

cws05champ
03-30-2009, 10:35 AM
Could this just a ploy to get his head straight? Maybe they say they found something wrong in the Blood tests that say there is an anxiety issue....then give him a placebo that will "fix" him up. Could be something they planned to do behind the scenes and this got out to the media.

ChiSoxFan81
03-30-2009, 10:39 AM
Could this just a ploy to get his head straight? Maybe they say they found something wrong in the Blood tests that say there is an anxiety issue....then give him a placebo that will "fix" him up. Could be something they planned to do behind the scenes and this got out to the media.

Trade him to the Cubs. The blue Kool-Aid will fix 'em.

thomas35forever
03-30-2009, 10:43 AM
It appears Willis has the same psychological problems Rick Vaughn had in Major League II.

Banix12
03-30-2009, 10:55 AM
I'm thinking the only anxiety disorder here is the anxiety the tigers brass feels in putting willis on the major league roster with his control in disorder.

FedEx227
03-30-2009, 11:06 AM
If you have a look at Dontrelle's stats you'll see that he had two good seasons ('03 and '05), he had two average seasons ('04 and '06), and one and a half bad seasons ('07 and the little time he had in '08). From 2003 to 2007 he averaged over 200 innings pitched so he was a work horse even in years he wasn't as productive. At his worst, Dontrelle was like Javy and at his best, he was far better than that winning 22 games.

The 2008 numbers seem to be the aberration to me. He simply fell apart in 2008. WHIP and E.R.A. almost doubled from previous years. This doesn't seem to be a pitcher who was on a slow decline and never knew how to pitch but more of a young guy who struggled to find consistency at the big league level and then developed a huge mechanics problem after a bout of injuries to go with it. You don't give up on left handers who throw as hard as Dontrelle when they are only 27 years old without giving him as many chances as possible. Obviously, there is a chance that he'll never find it again but I wouldn't blame any GM for giving it a try.

http://www.baseball-reference.com/w/willido03.shtml

http://www.fangraphs.com/graphs/1703_P_season_mini_0_20080930.png
http://www.fangraphs.com/graphs/1703_P_season_mini_2_20080930.png
http://www.fangraphs.com/graphs/1703_P_season_mini_4_20080930.png
http://www.fangraphs.com/graphs/1703_P_season_mini_3_20080930.png
http://www.fangraphs.com/graphs/1703_P_season_mini_6_20080930.png

It was not a sudden decline at all. Note how in all those metrics 2005 begins the downturn.

Foulke You
03-31-2009, 01:04 AM
http://www.fangraphs.com/graphs/1703_P_season_mini_0_20080930.png
http://www.fangraphs.com/graphs/1703_P_season_mini_2_20080930.png
http://www.fangraphs.com/graphs/1703_P_season_mini_4_20080930.png
http://www.fangraphs.com/graphs/1703_P_season_mini_3_20080930.png
http://www.fangraphs.com/graphs/1703_P_season_mini_6_20080930.png

It was not a sudden decline at all. Note how in all those metrics 2005 begins the downturn.
I guess we disagree here. I look at his career stats and I see a pitcher who was average his first two seasons, then really good in 2005, then back to average but solid again in 2006, mediocre in 2007 but still throwing 200+ innings and striking out 150+, and then the wheels came completely off in 2008. I don't think anybody's metrics foretold the complete and utter meltdown of Dontrelle and nobody will be able to convince me otherwise.

You prefer metrics to form your opinion and that is fine, many people like them but I like to look at the raw stats and my own eyes. Throwing 200+ innings in the majors in 2007 to not being able to throw strikes in Class A ball in 2008 is a pretty sudden fall from grace. There is something complex that is wrong Willis that metrics can't readily quantify. This isn't a pitcher with a normal steady drop in production who eventually loses his MLB roster spot to a more talented younger pitcher. Dontrelle was a guy who completely fell off the cliff and couldn't even throw a single strike. Just ask any Tigers fan who had to endure it last year.

Oblong
03-31-2009, 07:40 AM
I was at this game (http://www.baseball-reference.com/boxes/DET/DET200806090.shtml) last year and it was brutal. The fans were booing like crazy and I sincerely felt bad for the guy. Even from my seats you could tell something was wrong. It was like watching someone on stage giving a presentation and he realizes he spilled coffee all over his shirt or something. 3 run HR in the first and a 2 run HR in the second.

That showed me his problems were beyond simple regression. He was very jumpy and nervous.

WhiteSox5187
03-31-2009, 10:42 AM
I guess we disagree here. I look at his career stats and I see a pitcher who was average his first two seasons, then really good in 2005, then back to average but solid again in 2006, mediocre in 2007 but still throwing 200+ innings and striking out 150+, and then the wheels came completely off in 2008. I don't think anybody's metrics foretold the complete and utter meltdown of Dontrelle and nobody will be able to convince me otherwise.

You prefer metrics to form your opinion and that is fine, many people like them but I like to look at the raw stats and my own eyes. Throwing 200+ innings in the majors in 2007 to not being able to throw strikes in Class A ball in 2008 is a pretty sudden fall from grace. There is something complex that is wrong Willis that metrics can't readily quantify. This isn't a pitcher with a normal steady drop in production who eventually loses his MLB roster spot to a more talented younger pitcher. Dontrelle was a guy who completely fell off the cliff and couldn't even throw a single strike. Just ask any Tigers fan who had to endure it last year.
He was bad in '07, but I thought it was a fluke. I didn't think he'd return to his '05 form, but I thought a return to '06 form was not unlikely. But whatever happened in '07 it completely went to hell in '08.