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Lip Man 1
03-22-2009, 09:12 PM
Latest Ozzie / team news.

According to Mark Gonzales of the Tribune, Ozzie is upset over the bad defense... the 25 errors leads the Cactus League (but wait, I thought they were stressing the fundamentals this spring.....again.....) and has named Brian Anderson as the starting center fielder against left handed pitchers. He'll also leadoff in those games.

Looks like it'll be a platoon situation in center and at the leadoff spot.

It'll be very interesting to see how that works out this year!

Lip

delben91
03-22-2009, 09:19 PM
Latest Ozzie / team news.

According to Mark Gonzales of the Tribune, Ozzie is upset over the bad defense... the 25 errors leads the Cactus League (but wait, I thought they were stressing the fundamentals this spring.....again.....) and has named Brian Anderson as the starting center fielder against left handed pitchers. He'll also leadoff in those games.

Looks like it'll be a platoon situation in center and at the leadoff spot.

It'll be very interesting to see how that works out this year!

Lip

The problem is waiting to emphasize the fundamentals at big league camp. Not too surprising that said emphasis hasn't made the team advance in leaps and bounds.

Like the saying goes, you can't make chicken salad out of chicken **** (defensively in this case).

russ99
03-22-2009, 09:25 PM
Latest Ozzie / team news.

According to Mark Gonzales of the Tribune, Ozzie is upset over the bad defense... the 25 errors leads the Cactus League (but wait, I thought they were stressing the fundamentals this spring.....again.....) and has named Brian Anderson as the starting center fielder against left handed pitchers. He'll also leadoff in those games.

Looks like it'll be a platoon situation in center and at the leadoff spot.

It'll be very interesting to see how that works out this year!

Lip

Anderson's going to leadoff vs. lefties??
:puking:

At least he cant leave as many guys on base that way...

But that's good. At least he'll get some at-bats and we'll see once and for all if he can cut it as a major league hitter. If he does, more power to him.

Frater Perdurabo
03-22-2009, 09:30 PM
So really, the only news is that BA will now bat first instead of ninth against lefties.

What about against RHP? Who leads off against RHP? Who plays CF against RHP? (These are rhetorical questions, unless someone else has info that Ozzie has answered them, too.)

Quentin4prez
03-22-2009, 09:43 PM
assuming Kroeger can play centerfield, which from the scouting reports i was able to get from the internet on he is an average fielder in center, i think he should get a chance against the righties. i would def go with the person with more upside and out of Kroeger, Owens, and Wise he has the most. i also think maybe ozzy would let getz lead off just against righties. it is a pipe dream now that Ozzie has picked Anderson over him to lead off against lefties but w/e:bandance:
nice to hear Anderson get half a chance to succeed

BleacherBandit
03-22-2009, 09:47 PM
If Anderson is a regular starter this year, can this season be the season that we see who the winner of the BA Good/BA Bad debate is? I'm tired of that argument. This is good news because it will let us put it to bed.

KRS1
03-22-2009, 09:51 PM
assuming Kroeger can play centerfield...

If there was much chance of what you are asking for, I doubt Ozzie would be playing him so much at 1st and barely in CF so far.

SoxGirl4Life
03-22-2009, 09:51 PM
I think he'll be fine

pearso66
03-22-2009, 09:52 PM
If Anderson is a regular starter this year, can this season be the season that we see who the winner of the BA Good/BA Bad debate is? I'm tired of that argument. This is good news because it will let us put it to bed.

Unfortunately I don't think that debate would end unless he's a full time starter. He could play bad against lefties, but the BA supporters will say it's because he doesn't get consistent at bats. If he does well against lefties, the BA haters will say, it doesn't matter because it's only against lefties, and he still sucks because he can't hit righties.

WhiteSox5187
03-22-2009, 09:55 PM
Wow, well I'm glad BA will be in CF because I think he's our best option there but I don't think he's a leadoff guy by any stretch of the imagination. I think that at best Anderson might be able to put up a .320 OBP and that isn't even too likely, nor is it good enough for a leadoff guy.

Rdy2PlayBall
03-22-2009, 10:00 PM
I know BA is has good defense, but I still think Wise deserves the job. If he doesn't have the speed for a leadoff hitter, how does Owens? He's been caught 3 times stealing... Wise only once. I hope Wise pulls something off the rest of ST because I really don't want to see BA in leadoff. :(:

and BA lovers... idc

veeter
03-22-2009, 10:09 PM
I know BA is has good defense, but I still think Wise deserves the job. If he doesn't have the speed for a leadoff hitter, how does Owens? He's been caught 3 times stealing... Wise only once. I hope Wise pulls something off the rest of ST because I really don't want to see BA in leadoff. :(:

and BA lovers... idcBrian would only lead off against lefties.

Red Barchetta
03-22-2009, 10:11 PM
Personally, I would like to see an even larger commitment from Ozzie. Start Anderson in CF and have him lead off against lefties and bat Getz last.

On the days they face right handed pitchers, bat Getz leadoff and bat Anderson last.

I know it's not perfect, however I think we need to put a consistent starting team on the field. I have never been a big fan of platooning. I agree they need to keep all the players fresh, however the better teams (including our 2005 squad) succeeded with a regular starting lineup.

Tragg
03-22-2009, 10:39 PM
He hits righties better than lefties. I hope he gets some ABs against righties.

sunofgold
03-22-2009, 10:40 PM
Doesn't seem right for leadoff man. Would rather see Ramirez there (prefer not to though).

Last seeason, Guillen had to bat BA second when AJ was out of the lineup. I didn't like BA at #2 either. Right now, he is a bottom of the lineup hitter who plays excellent defense.

Craig Grebeck
03-22-2009, 10:51 PM
I know BA is has good defense, but I still think Wise deserves the job. If he doesn't have the speed for a leadoff hitter, how does Owens? He's been caught 3 times stealing... Wise only once. I hope Wise pulls something off the rest of ST because I really don't want to see BA in leadoff. :(:

and BA lovers... idc
Wise is fast. Great. He is an extremely below average hitter.

LoveYourSuit
03-22-2009, 10:52 PM
He is the best CF we have, hands down. Now, just because the team was not prepared with a reliable leadoff hitter at any other position doesn't mean that the best guy should not have won that job. He clearly is the best guy.

Put them all in a hat (Anderson, Wise, Owens, Getz, Lilebridge, Nix) and pull a name out. None of them are a sure bet for anything at leadoff. So we are losing nothing here.

SBSoxFan
03-22-2009, 10:56 PM
I know BA is has good defense, but I still think Wise deserves the job. If he doesn't have the speed for a leadoff hitter, how does Owens? He's been caught 3 times stealing... Wise only once. I hope Wise pulls something off the rest of ST because I really don't want to see BA in leadoff. :(:

and BA lovers... idc

So, why should Wise deserve the job? Because he has a .293 OBP this spring with no walks vs. Owens who has a .350 OBP and leads the team in walks?

Lip Man 1
03-22-2009, 11:00 PM
Frater:

In the same story Ozzie said he hadn't made up his mind on who starts vs. right handers. It'll be between Owens and Wise (gulp...)

Lip

Daver
03-22-2009, 11:02 PM
I still hope to hear that Brian Anderson has been traded before this season starts.

LoveYourSuit
03-22-2009, 11:05 PM
I still hope to hear that Brian Anderson has been traded before this season starts.

I'm surprised to hear that from a guy like you who always demands defense.

Daver
03-22-2009, 11:16 PM
I'm surprised to hear that from a guy like you who always demands defense.

It is more from a personal POV, I am sick and tired of discussions about Brian on this site.

voodoochile
03-22-2009, 11:20 PM
He hits righties better than lefties. I hope he gets some ABs against righties.

Stop. Just stop. I don't know if you are intentionally lying or just being obtuse. BA's career OPS against RHP sucks to high heaven and it's lower than his career numbers against LHP despite seeing more AB against RHP. Last year his OPS against LHP was 200 points higher than it was against RHP in only 20 less AB.

You aren't helping your argument by lying about the facts we do have in front of us.

Edit: Oh and I support this decision wholeheartedly. I'm not thrilled he'll be leading off, but not like there's a clear cut choice for that either and if he can post the numbers he did last year against LHP, he'll be comparable to OC.

doublem23
03-22-2009, 11:26 PM
I like BA in center. I shudder at BA leading off.

Craig Grebeck
03-22-2009, 11:26 PM
...if he can post the numbers he did last year against LHP, he'll be comparable to OC.
:?:

Daver
03-22-2009, 11:29 PM
Stop. Just stop. I don't know if you are intentionally lying or just being obtuse. BA's career OPS against RHP sucks to high heaven and it's lower than his career numbers against LHP despite seeing more AB against RHP. Last year his OPS against LHP was 200 points higher than it was against RHP in only 20 less AB.


Look at his HS and college numbers, he has always hit better against right handed pitching, this is one of the reasons stat driven analysis is worth a pile of monkey dung.

oeo
03-22-2009, 11:32 PM
Why does Ozzie insist on putting the worst hitter in the lineup at #1? Whether it's Owens, Wise, or Anderson, they all belong at the bottom of the order.

voodoochile
03-22-2009, 11:34 PM
Look at his HS and college numbers, he has always hit better against right handed pitching, this is one of the reasons stat driven analysis is worth a pile of monkey dung.

Well it hasn't carried over to the pros. People should be happy he hits LHP better than he hits RHP because his numbers against RHP (and until last year LHP) have sucked.

voodoochile
03-22-2009, 11:36 PM
:?:

Sorry, my bad. I thought his OBP was higher. I knew he broke .800 OPS against LHP last year, but now I see it's all driven by his insane SLG.

LoveYourSuit
03-22-2009, 11:38 PM
It is more from a personal POV, I am sick and tired of discussions about Brian on this site.


Yeah, I agree the Anderson stuff gets sick after 10 pages of arguements. Sadly, he is the best man for the job. They all suck, but he has one very good quality over the rest which is his glove. The rest of them can't do a singe thing ((1) one thing) better than how Anderson can catch the ball. Yes, Owens has speed but how can he steal 1B.

Dissapointed a bit with how the Sox have handled this black hole which has become of CF and the leadoff hitter the last few season since Rowand's departure (and I don't think he was that great either). It has been a circus out in CF. CF has become what the #5 stater used to be for us.

CF would be my #1 goal in this coming draft for 2009.

oeo
03-22-2009, 11:39 PM
Well it hasn't carried over to the pros. People should be happy he hits LHP better than he hits RHP because his numbers against RHP (and until last year LHP) have sucked.

He really hasn't hit one better than the other, they've both been pretty ****ty. The one thing he did better against lefties last year was homeruns, but that wasn't the case in 2006. Since he's been better against RHP most of his life, a logical explanation might be that he was just sitting fastball to launch.

But if he's felt comfortable hitting RHP his entire life, I doubt that would change at the pros. Problem is, Brian can't hit either.

LoveYourSuit
03-22-2009, 11:41 PM
Why does Ozzie insist on putting the worst hitter in the lineup at #1? Whether it's Owens, Wise, or Anderson, they all belong at the bottom of the order.


I think he doesn't have many options. especially if they don't want to put so much preassure on Getz.

Unless we want AJ there?

The team sees Alexei as an RBI machine and will not waste him very high the order. I think just for this season, we should bite the bullet there and plug him at #1. But Alexei doesn't help cool the nerves with his hack attack approach at the plate.

oeo
03-22-2009, 11:43 PM
I think he doesn't have many options. especially if they don't want to put so much preassure on Getz.

Getz has already mentioned that is where he feels most comfortable. I think he ends up being the everyday leadoff hitter.

Maybe the options suck, but you still don't put your worst hitter at the top of the lineup.

35th and Shields
03-22-2009, 11:48 PM
Getz has already mentioned that is where he feels most comfortable. I think he ends up being the everyday leadoff hitter.

Maybe the options suck, but you still don't put your worst hitter at the top of the lineup.

Exactly and just really how much more pressure is on the leadoff hitter? It's one at bat and it's certainly not where you put one of our worst hitters.

Daver
03-22-2009, 11:50 PM
Well it hasn't carried over to the pros. People should be happy he hits LHP better than he hits RHP because his numbers against RHP (and until last year LHP) have sucked.

I should be happy that the Sox can't develop talent?

whitesox901
03-22-2009, 11:51 PM
interesting

doublem23
03-23-2009, 12:33 AM
CF would be my #1 goal in this coming draft for 2009.

CF should (hopefully) be the #1 priority for this team at the trade deadline, or at very worst, next off-season. The Sox are going to shed a lot of payroll next year, I sincerely hope they find a way to bring someone in to fill the void.

As for the draft, we already have Little Danks who has some promise, but even if we draft someone, we'll be drafting at the end of the 1st round so we'd unlikely find someone who will make a significant impact at the MLB level until 2011 or 2012 at best. Unlike the NFL or NBA Draft, it's counterproductive to draft for positions in baseball. Just take the best available player and let it work itself out.

Madscout
03-23-2009, 01:00 AM
I would like to also say that in the future, we shouldn't match positions in the field with positions in the lineup, such as this year with CF and leadoff. We had two guys fighting for this job with no business being there in the first place. It is not too much to ask a player to be able to field his position, unless he is Manny Ramirez and even then, it isn't too much.

I like Anderson, but I think he may have had a chance to become a solid player, and I am doubtful now that he still will be able to turn himself into an everyday player. I am not happy with how he won this job. He should have been going up against real CFs in the first place, not a bad LF and a utility player.

voodoochile
03-23-2009, 01:01 AM
I should be happy that the Sox can't develop talent?

No, I was merely saying that people should be happy he can hit at least one kind of pitcher effectively.

guillensdisciple
03-23-2009, 01:05 AM
I don't know what to say to this, but I hope beyond hope that he can pull of a .340 obp. If he does, I will call him a success.

cards press box
03-23-2009, 01:12 AM
Personally, I would like to see an even larger commitment from Ozzie. Start Anderson in CF and have him lead off against lefties and bat Getz last.

On the days they face right handed pitchers, bat Getz leadoff and bat Anderson last.

I know it's not perfect, however I think we need to put a consistent starting team on the field. I have never been a big fan of platooning. I agree they need to keep all the players fresh, however the better teams (including our 2005 squad) succeeded with a regular starting lineup.

If the Sox don't acquire a leadoff man (e.g., Willits, Pierre, Schumaker) before April 6, then the plan of leading off Getz against righties (with Anderson or a lefty in CF batting 9th) and Anderson leading off against lefties (and Getz at 2B batting 9th or, I would add, batting 2nd on days when AJ is not playing) is probably worth a try. Anderson didn't hit much against anybody last year but he turned 27 this year and maybe has turned the corner. He hit all 8 of his HR against lefties in 80 AB's against lefties last year and, oddly, 10 of his 13 doubles against righties in 101 AB's. Given his age and stage of development, it might be Anderson's time to have a break out season.

I am a fan of platooning when that maximizes the talent on hand. Earl Weaver, for example, got great results from the platoon of John Lowenstein and Gary Roenicke in LF in 1982.* Casey Stengel platooned for years and it worked well for the Yankees. Anderson offers top flight defense in CF and might benefit from a platoon, as well.

* In 1982, Lowenstein and Roenicke combined for 45 HR and 140 RBI.

sullythered
03-23-2009, 03:51 AM
I like BA, but my guess is that Getz is leading off against everybody by May.

ode to veeck
03-23-2009, 08:42 AM
Doesn't seem right for leadoff man. Would rather see Ramirez there (prefer not to though).

Last seeason, Guillen had to bat BA second when AJ was out of the lineup. I didn't like BA at #2 either. Right now, he is a bottom of the lineup hitter who plays excellent defense.

yep, BA has always struggled early in the lineup but hit much better deep in the lineup-seems ozzie always hoped he'd be able to be a #2, but he hasn't come close to showing it

doublem23
03-23-2009, 09:08 AM
I don't know what to say to this, but I hope beyond hope that he can pull of a .340 obp. If he does, I will call him a success.

A .340 OBP from Brian Anderson would be remarkable, considering his career OBP is .277.

I'd be pleased if he could just get on the happy side of .300.

russ99
03-23-2009, 09:16 AM
CF would be my #1 goal in this coming draft for 2009.

Nah, we have Jordan Danks and John Shelby in the minors already. If Kenny doesnt fix things before then, one of those to will be on CF in 2 years.

I can live with a Owens-Anderson platoon, but again, it's not optimal. Maybe if they both have issues the first month and Getz goes on a tear, they can switch in the order, like almost all of us want.

Thome25
03-23-2009, 09:43 AM
I think I just threw up in my mouth. If our only options at CF and leadoff are BA, Wise, and Owens then that is disgusting.

I don't like this at all. Fields is also apparently an option at leadoff but that is another (equally disgusting.) conversation. There's no difference between leading off one of these dopes and leading off Swisher last year......either way someones batting out of position. I hope I'm wrong and this works.

delben91
03-23-2009, 09:49 AM
I think I just threw up in my mouth. If our only options at CF and leadoff are BA, Wise, and Owens then that is disgusting.

I don't like this at all. Fields is also apparently an option at leadoff but that is another (equally disgusting.) conversation. There's no difference between leading off one of these dopes and leading off Swisher last year......either way someones batting out of position. I hope I'm wrong and this works.

Out of curiousity, who on the current roster do you want leading off?

Thome25
03-23-2009, 09:54 AM
Out of curiousity, who on the current roster do you want leading off?

That's the problem.....there is no one on our roster who concieveably can lead off so, if I had to choose anyone I would have to say Getz or Alexei......certainly not BA or Fields.....and Owens and Wise should be in the minors where they belong.

KW should bite the ****ing bullet and go out and get someone who's not on the roster......Willits, Figgins, Gerut......I don't care.....but, please not BA or Fields or owens or Wise for that matter. Didn't we learn from the Swisher experiment at leadoff last year? We'd essentially be doing the same thing again in 2009.

beasly213
03-23-2009, 09:56 AM
Meh this is worth a shot. If Anderson looks good in Spring Training why not? Granted he always looks good in the spring but maybe he is finally out of Ozzies dog house. If this ends up not working then we'll have to go back to square one. But right now this is the best option we have.
Just because this is the begining of the seasons best option doesn't mean that won't change for the better througout the year.

oeo
03-23-2009, 10:00 AM
That's the problem.....there is no one on our roster who concieveably can lead off

That's bull****, Getz would be fine at leading off. He shows good discipline, hits well with two strikes, puts the ball in play, and has good speed. Are there better leadoff hitters? Sure, Getz is far from a perfect player. However, he will get the job done and is our best option at leadoff since Pods.

Thome25
03-23-2009, 10:03 AM
That's bull****, Getz would be fine at leading off. He shows good discipline, hits well with two strikes, puts the ball in play, and has good speed. Are there better leadoff hitters? Sure, Getz is far from a perfect player. However, he will get the job done and is our best option at leadoff since Pods.

I don't disagree.....I even listed him as one of my options at leadoff along with Alexei. I'm not sure I'd throw him into the fire right away at leadoff though and that was the reason for my statement that you quoted.

beasly213
03-23-2009, 10:05 AM
That's bull****, Getz would be fine at leading off. He shows good discipline, hits well with two strikes, puts the ball in play, and has good speed. Are there better leadoff hitters? Sure, Getz is far from a perfect player. However, he will get the job done and is our best option at leadoff since Pods.

I think Getz can handle it. And who knows there are still a few weeks left in S/T and he still might end up as the Sox lead off hitter. But if he doesn't lead off opening day or opening week that doesn't mean he won't be moved up there soon there after. No need to panic on this one as the season hasn't even started yet.

oeo
03-23-2009, 10:06 AM
Meh this is worth a shot. If Anderson looks good in Spring Training why not? Granted he always looks good in the spring but maybe he is finally out of Ozzies dog house.

If Anderson was in Ozzie's doghouse, he would have been gone a long time ago.

I think Getz can handle it. And who knows there are still a few weeks left in S/T and he still might end up as the Sox lead off hitter. But if he doesn't lead off opening day or opening week that doesn't mean he won't be moved up there soon there after. No need to panic on this one as the season hasn't even started yet.

I'm not panicking, and I think when all is said and done, Getz will be leading off. However, there's really no excuse to ever lead off with three of the worst hitters on the roster.

beasly213
03-23-2009, 10:10 AM
If Anderson was in Ozzie's doghouse, he would have been gone a long time ago.



I'm not panicking, and I think when all is said and done, Getz will be leading off. However, there's really no excuse to ever lead off with three of the worst hitters on the roster.

If you say so but I think him being in Ozzie's doghouse is evident over the years by his lack of playing time. I remember when Anderson was on the score in 07 and he even admitted he shouldn't have went out as much as he did during the 06 season to party and should have focused more on being a big leauge starter.

oeo
03-23-2009, 10:31 AM
If you say so but I think him being in Ozzie's doghouse is evident over the years by his lack of playing time. I remember when Anderson was on the score in 07 and he even admitted he shouldn't have went out as much as he did during the 06 season to party and should have focused more on being a big leauge starter.

That doesn't mean he was in his doghouse. I just look at other players who are in his doghouse that are let go or shipped out of town at the snap of your fingers. Most recently Logan, Swisher, and Javy, but there's also El Caballo, Maggs, Sean Tracey, etc. If Anderson really was in his doghouse, I think he would have been dealt after 2006 when he still at least had some value.

beasly213
03-23-2009, 10:43 AM
That doesn't mean he was in his doghouse. I just look at other players who are in his doghouse that are let go or shipped out of town at the snap of your fingers. Most recently Logan, Swisher, and Javy, but there's also El Caballo, Maggs, Sean Tracey, etc. If Anderson really was in his doghouse, I think he would have been dealt after 2006 when he still at least had some value.

Logan was a bad pitcher, Carlos Lee was traded to get something the Sox needed in a lead off hitter, Maggs wasn't re signed because he wanted a lot of money coming off an injury and if KW thought Sean Tracey was going to be a good pitcher he would have stayed on the team. I'll give you Swisher and Javy but Anderson is on the team still because he has value as a defensive player and KW knows that. I still think he's in Ozzies doghouse (or has been) due to lack of taking his job serious enough.

doublem23
03-23-2009, 10:46 AM
Logan was a bad pitcher, Carlos Lee was traded to get something the Sox needed in a lead off hitter, Maggs wasn't re signed because he wanted a lot of money coming off an injury and if KW thought Sean Tracey was going to be a good pitcher he would have stayed on the team. I'll give you Swisher and Javy but Anderson is on the team still because he has value as a defensive player and KW knows that. I still think he's in Ozzies doghouse (or has been) due to lack of taking his job serious enough.

It's not like Anderson is a superstar. Isn't it more likely that he doesn't get steady PT because he just can't hit?

oeo
03-23-2009, 10:50 AM
Logan was a bad pitcher, Carlos Lee was traded to get something the Sox needed in a lead off hitter, Maggs wasn't re signed because he wanted a lot of money coming off an injury and if KW thought Sean Tracey was going to be a good pitcher he would have stayed on the team. I'll give you Swisher and Javy but Anderson is on the team still because he has value as a defensive player and KW knows that. I still think he's in Ozzies doghouse (or has been) due to lack of taking his job serious enough.

All those guys were still in his doghouse. Without the title, the Carlos Lee trade would still be questioned, and letting Maggs go would probably be much of the same. Maybe less so Maggs, because he was offered plenty of money to return, but El Caballo for sure. I know we got a good year from Pods and Vizcaino, some money freed up, and best of all a ring, but the Brewers still got a ****ing deal.

Thome25
03-23-2009, 10:51 AM
Logan was a bad pitcher, Carlos Lee was traded to get something the Sox needed in a lead off hitter, Maggs wasn't re signed because he wanted a lot of money coming off an injury and if KW thought Sean Tracey was going to be a good pitcher he would have stayed on the team. I'll give you Swisher and Javy but Anderson is on the team still because he has value as a defensive player and KW knows that. I still think he's in Ozzies doghouse (or has been) due to lack of taking his job serious enough.

There is no doghouse.......never was one.:tongue: Those guys were in the outhouse because they stunk (except Maggs and Caballo.).......just like BA. He stinks too......BA is in Ozzie's outhouse because like Doublem said he can't hit.

beasly213
03-23-2009, 10:51 AM
It's not like Anderson is a superstar. Isn't it more likely that he doesn't get steady PT because he just can't hit?

Probably but some could argue that the reason he doesn't get more of a chance to get out of a hitting slump is because he is in the managers dog house.

I don't want people to get confused though I'm all for Anderson being the starter. Not because I'm a huge fan of his but because he is the best option on the team right now in my opinion.

beasly213
03-23-2009, 10:53 AM
All those guys were still in his doghouse. Without the title, the Carlos Lee trade would still be questioned, and letting Maggs go would probably be much of the same. Maybe less so Maggs, because he was offered plenty of money to return, but El Caballo for sure. I know we got a good year from Pods and Vizcaino, some money freed up, and best of all a ring, but the Brewers still got a ****ing deal.

Well I'm under the impression that while Guillen might not like Anderson very much KW does.

voodoochile
03-23-2009, 10:55 AM
It's not like Anderson is a superstar. Isn't it more likely that he doesn't get steady PT because he just can't hit?

It's tough to hit when you rolled out of bed at 4 PM with a raging hangover...

Thome25
03-23-2009, 10:56 AM
Probably but some could argue that the reason he doesn't get more of a chance to get out of a hitting slump is because he is in the managers dog house.

I don't want people to get confused though I'm all for Anderson being the starter. Not because I'm a huge fan of his but because he is the best option on the team right now in my opinion.

Again could it be that everytime he is up there he can't buy a hit or get on base? Do we have to watch an entire season of suckage to see the BA isn't a good hitter (which most of us already know.) and he isn't merely waiting to pull out of a slump?

Maybe he's a permanent, walking, living, breathing slump because he can't hit?

oeo
03-23-2009, 10:57 AM
There is no doghouse.......never was one.:tongue: Those guys were in the outhouse because they stunk (except Maggs and Caballo.).......just like BA. He stinks too......BA is in Ozzie's outhouse because like Doublem said he can't hit.

Logan has a great arm, is still very young, and is a lefty. There was no reason (other than wanting him out of here) to deal him. Javy is a fine bottom of the rotation guy, and with questions about our fourth and fifth starters, doesn't make a whole lot of sense either (except maybe to free up some money). Swisher had an off year, but we traded our three best prospects to get him...dealing him for comparable garbage doesn't make a whole lot of sense either.

doublem23
03-23-2009, 11:00 AM
Well I'm under the impression that while Guillen might not like Anderson very much KW does.

That's fine, but it's not like Ozzie misuses Anderson; he's a great 4th outfielder and late-inning defensive replacement. He shouldn't be playing everyday because he's never shown any ability to hit consistently at the Major League level.

Oeo is right, if he were really in Ozzie's doghouse he'd be gone or in Charlotte. Ozzie uses him perfectly given the skills he's shown.

Thome25
03-23-2009, 11:05 AM
Logan has a great arm, is still very young, and is a lefty. There was no reason (other than wanting him out of here) to deal him. Javy is a fine bottom of the rotation guy, and with questions about our fourth and fifth starters, doesn't make a whole lot of sense either (except maybe to free up some money). Swisher had an off year, but we traded our three best prospects to get him...dealing him for comparable garbage doesn't make a whole lot of sense either.

Logan is garbage as of right now and made Sox fans in attendance and watching on television nervous everytime he came into a game. KW probably felt the same way that's why he's gone IMO.

Javy is a jagoff headcase who was an average pitcher at best and had a tendency to be a whiny crybaby who crapped his pants in the big game and only pitched well in garbage-time. (Like in 2007 when the Sox were out of it.) Also, the Sox needed some payroll leeway. IMO these are the reasons he's gone and not "Ozzie's doghouse".

Swisher is garbage who made too much money to sit his butt on the bench. That's why he's gone. Not "Ozzie's doghouse" IMO. Marquez may turn out to be a good back of the rotation or even bullpen guy someday. What the hell are DLS or Sweeney doing lately? That's right.....nothing. We didn't give up Poreda for Swisher for crying out loud.

jabrch
03-23-2009, 11:08 AM
Again could it be that everytime he is up there he can't buy a hit or get on base? Do we have to watch an entire season of suckage to see the BA isn't a good hitter (which most of us already know.) and he isn't merely waiting to pull out of a slump?

Maybe he's a permanent, walking, living, breathing slump because he can't hit?


I'm by no means a FOBA. But you are jumping to a conclusion here. There is some evidence that Brian can hit. He hasn't yet - but that doesn't mean he won't, and it certainly doesn't mean he can't.

oeo
03-23-2009, 11:09 AM
Logan is garbage as of right now and made Sox fans in attendance and watching on television nervous everytime he came into a game. KW probably felt the same way that's why he's gone IMO.

Logan was lights out over the first 2-3 months, and is still very young...we're not talking Mike MacDougal here. You don't just deal a young lefty, especially one with Logan's arm. If Flowers doesn't pan out, that trade may end up being one of KW's worst.

Javy is a jagoff headcase who was an average pitcher at best and had a tendency to be a whiny crybaby who crapped his pants in the big game and only pitched well in garbage-time. (Like in 2007 when the Sox were out of it.) Also, the Sox needed some payroll leeway. IMO these are the reasons he's gone and not "Ozzie's doghouse".

Swisher is garbage who made too much money to sit his butt on the bench. That's why he's gone. Not "Ozzie's doghouse" IMO. Marquez may turn out to be a good back of the rotation or even bullpen guy someday. What the hell are DLS or Sweeney doing lately? That's right.....nothing. We didn't give up Poreda for Swisher for crying out loud.I'm not even going to get into this.

doublem23
03-23-2009, 11:09 AM
Uh, Ryan Sweeney hit .286 for the A's last year and would probably be our CF if we hadn't traded him for Swisher.

jabrch
03-23-2009, 11:10 AM
Javy is a jagoff headcase who was an average pitcher at best and had a tendency to be a whiny crybaby who crapped his pants in the big game and only pitched well in garbage-time. (Like in 2007 when the Sox were out of it.)

Seriously? Javy is not a jagoff. That's just wrong. And Javy pitched well in many games that weren't garbage time.

What the hell are DLS or Sweeney doing lately? That's right.....nothing. We didn't give up Poreda for Swisher for crying out loud.

If we still had Sweeney, he'd be our every day starting CF and we wouldn't have (m)any of these stupid BA threads.

102605
03-23-2009, 11:11 AM
Whatever. Brian has had problems driving in runs so I guess the best spot for him is leadoff when noone is on base.

russ99
03-23-2009, 11:13 AM
I think Getz can handle it. And who knows there are still a few weeks left in S/T and he still might end up as the Sox lead off hitter. But if he doesn't lead off opening day or opening week that doesn't mean he won't be moved up there soon there after. No need to panic on this one as the season hasn't even started yet.

I don't, at least at this point.

And Ozzie has a track record with Alexei starting out lower in the order, so there's a method to his madness. Let's get the kid's feet wet first. Don't set him up to fail.

If after a month or two, he's doing really well while our leadoff guys falter, by all means, then make the switch.

russ99
03-23-2009, 11:15 AM
If we still had Sweeney, he'd be our every day starting CF and we wouldn't have (m)any of these stupid BA threads.

Coulda shoulda woulda. We should have Chris Young too, but we don't.

I don't blame Kenny for trading those guys, I blame Kenny for not getting us a better option during this offseason than the 3 guys we have in camp now.

Thome25
03-23-2009, 11:15 AM
I'm by no means a FOBA. But you are jumping to a conclusion here. There is some evidence that Brian can hit. He hasn't yet - but that doesn't mean he won't, and it certainly doesn't mean he can't.

And Gavin Floyd MIGHT win the Cy Young some day. And Ozzie Guillen MIGHT be voted commisssioner of baseball someday. We can't deal with what MIGHT happen. BA has shown time and again that he isn't anything more than a slick-fielding, no-hitting, outfielder.

You can afford to keep sticking with a guy like BA if you're the Marlins, Royals, or Pirates. But, if you actually want to win AND develop guy then you can't keep letting him show his total-suckage and not bench him eventually.

This isn't a can't-miss, top-prospect we're talking about either. You give top prospects the benefit of the doubt and a little extra time. You show guys like BA his spot on the bench.

beasly213
03-23-2009, 11:16 AM
I don't, at least at this point.

And Ozzie has a track record with Alexei starting out lower in the order, so there's a method to his madness. Let's get the kid's feet wet first. Don't set him up to fail.

If after a month or two, he's doing really well while our leadoff guys falter, by all means, then make the switch.

I agree with this. Let Getz take some time to get some confidence at the big league level. Even though I think Getz can handle it I understand wanting to let him get some more big league seasoning.

Edit: I am now a WSI Personality Go me!!

Dibbs
03-23-2009, 11:19 AM
BA, Owens and Wise all stink at hitting, however, Brian is easily best at defense. Lead off Getz and have Brian bat 9th. Why is this so hard to figure out? I wish I was manager.

Thome25
03-23-2009, 11:22 AM
Uh, Ryan Sweeney hit .286 for the A's last year and would probably be our CF if we hadn't traded him for Swisher.

And so would Rowand if we hadn't traded him for Thome....so what? Sweeney is an average hitter and fielder IMO and would've just been lumped in with the rest of the garbage we're contemplating playing in CF in 2009.

Seriously? Javy is not a jagoff. That's just wrong. And Javy pitched well in many games that weren't garbage time.

Need I remind you of the argument with AJ? He's a jagoff with a bad attitude and doesn't have a very good head on his shoulders IMO.



If we still had Sweeney, he'd be our every day starting CF and we wouldn't have (m)any of these stupid BA threads.

Again, who knows where Sweeney would be if he was still here. I think he's another average to below average player who can't leadoff just like the ones we're currently trying to trot out there in 2009.

doublem23
03-23-2009, 12:01 PM
And so would Rowand if we hadn't traded him for Thome....so what? Sweeney is an average hitter and fielder IMO and would've just been lumped in with the rest of the garbage we're contemplating playing in CF in 2009.

I didn't say Sweeney is a star, but as an average hitter and defender, he'd be head and shoulders better than Anderson, Wise, or Owens. You're telling me a guy who hit .286/.350/.383 and can play CF wouldn't be starting April 6 for us?

Thome25
03-23-2009, 12:06 PM
I didn't say Sweeney is a star, but as an average hitter and defender, he'd be head and shoulders better than Anderson, Wise, or Owens. You're telling me a guy who hit .286/.350/.383 and can play CF wouldn't be starting April 6 for us?

I'm not saying he wouldn't be starting.....I'm not sure what would've happened if we didn't trade him for Swisher. I also know that all things are relative. He played for a different team, in a different stadium, in a different climate, in a differnent timezone, with different hitters behind him.

It's possible that he may not have played the same under different circumstances for us. There's a chance he could've been even better here than he showed for Oakland last year or there's the possibility that he could've played worse too.

Either way the your point is moot because he isn't here anymore and IMO he isn't any different than the average-to-garbage players that we're currently trotting out there who also can't leadoff.

doublem23
03-23-2009, 12:18 PM
Either way the your point is moot because he isn't here anymore and IMO he isn't any different than the average-to-garbage players that we're currently trotting out there who also can't leadoff.

:scratch:

He's 24. He hit .286 last year. What the **** do you want from the guy?

It's OK to admit trading him was a mistake. I'm not crying over Fasto or Gio, but Sweeney is a legit player. The Sox shouldn't have let him go.

Thome25
03-23-2009, 12:21 PM
:scratch:

He's 24. He hit .286 last year. What the **** do you want from the guy?

It's OK to admit trading him was a mistake. I'm not crying over Fasto or Gio, but Sweeney is a legit player. The Sox shouldn't have let him go.

I don't expect anything from him. He's an Oakland A........and I wouldn't expect anything from him if he was still here either because he hasn't shown much and isn't that much different than the guys we're currently trying to put in CF.

delben91
03-23-2009, 12:24 PM
I'm not crying over Fasto or Gio, but Sweeney is a legit player. The Sox shouldn't have let him go.

Let's see if you're crying over Fausto when he gets inducted into the HOF. :whiner:

delben91
03-23-2009, 12:26 PM
I don't expect anything from him. He's an Oakland A........and I wouldn't expect anything from him if he was still here either because he hasn't shown much and isn't that much different than the guys we're currently trying to put in CF.

But he is different, because he's proven he can hit over .270 (heck, over .250) at the ML level for at least a year. None of the guys on the Sox current roster have proven that.

I'll get out of the way now.

doublem23
03-23-2009, 12:27 PM
I don't expect anything from him. He's an Oakland A........and I wouldn't expect anything from him if he was still here either because he hasn't shown much and isn't that much different than the guys we're currently trying to put in CF.

Except that he can god damn hit, and do it playing in a park that is much less hitter-friendly than the Cell. What did he do, run over your dog? You've shown absolutely nothing to defend your argument in the light of basic stats that show Sweeney would easily be the Sox's starting CF if KW hadn't ****ed up and traded him for Swisher. KW is human and he makes mistakes. Letting Sweeney go was one of them. It's OK.

Thome25
03-23-2009, 12:39 PM
Except that he can god damn hit, and do it playing in a park that is much less hitter-friendly than the Cell. What did he do, run over your dog? You've shown absolutely nothing to defend your argument in the light of basic stats that show Sweeney would easily be the Sox's starting CF if KW hadn't ****ed up and traded him for Swisher. KW is human and he makes mistakes. Letting Sweeney go was one of them. It's OK.

Relax....it's OK....I promise. I don't have anything against Sweeney. Yeah he's a good player.....he just isn't that much better than what we're currently trying to trot out there in CF IMO. Also, he can't leadoff so even if he was here, he wouldn't solve that problem either.

This thread was about BA starting in CF and leading off vs lefties. Sweeney deosn't solve that problem IMO.

My response was just my opinion....doesn't mean it's right it's just my opinion. That's why I was careful to put "IMO" after almost everything I typed.....no reason to get worked up over it.

I don't understand the sentiment that KW traded the future Willie Mays, Sandy Koufax, and Steve Carlton for Swisher. We traded some pretty average prospects away IMO.

Gio, DLS, and Sweeney are average at best and IMO will prove to be just average in the future. Why can I say that do you ask? Because White Sox prospects that KW (and even as far back as Schueler) traded away almost always NEVER amount to anything. Heck, prospects who we keep and come up to the big club rarely ever amount to anything for that matter.

This all goes back to our farm system sucking......it isn't very fruitful and just doesn't produce very much recently. I bet we can name all of the really good prospects to play for the White Sox in the last 10-15 years on one hand......Lee? Check....Ordonez? Check.....Buehrle? Check.....Crede? Check.

jabrch
03-23-2009, 12:45 PM
And Gavin Floyd MIGHT win the Cy Young some day. And Ozzie Guillen MIGHT be voted commisssioner of baseball someday. We can't deal with what MIGHT happen. BA has shown time and again that he isn't anything more than a slick-fielding, no-hitting, outfielder.


Green potato machine Michael nice.

You can afford to keep sticking with a guy like BA if you're the Marlins, Royals, or Pirates. But, if you actually want to win AND develop guy then you can't keep letting him show his total-suckage and not bench him eventually.

Excuse me...didn't we make the playoffs last year? And when he wasn't hitting, didn't we bench him? And didn't he have to come in this offseason and earn a job? I don't understand what you are talking about.

This isn't a can't-miss, top-prospect we're talking about either. You give top prospects the benefit of the doubt and a little extra time. You show guys like BA his spot on the bench.

You give all of your first round picks who have talent some time. He hit very well in AAA in 2005. In fact, he has hit well in every level until the majors. I'm not saying hand him the job, give him 600 ABs and let him hit .210/.270/.350. But I am saying he is not complete flaming garbage and deserves to continue to compete with the other (non-perfect) options we have at the position.

HomeFish
03-23-2009, 12:46 PM
Lee? Check....Ordonez? Check.....Buehrle? Check.....Crede? Check.

One of these is not like the others.

delben91
03-23-2009, 12:47 PM
You give all of your first round picks who have talent some time. He hit very well in AAA in 2005. In fact, he has hit well in every level until the majors. I'm not saying hand him the job, give him 600 ABs and let him hit .210/.270/.350. But I am saying he is not complete flaming garbage and deserves to continue to compete with the other (non-perfect) options we have at the position.

And I honestly don't have the stats handy, but I believe BA was sent down for a while in 2007 and hit well in Charlotte while there. Then again, maybe I'm imagining things again.

HomeFish
03-23-2009, 12:48 PM
And I honestly don't have the stats handy, but I believe BA was sent down for a while in 2007 and hit well in Charlotte while there. Then again, maybe I'm imagining things again.

Willie Harris always tore up AAA ball when we sent him down there too.

CashMan
03-23-2009, 12:51 PM
Except that he can god damn hit, and do it playing in a park that is much less hitter-friendly than the Cell. What did he do, run over your dog? You've shown absolutely nothing to defend your argument in the light of basic stats that show Sweeney would easily be the Sox's starting CF if KW hadn't ****ed up and traded him for Swisher. KW is human and he makes mistakes. Letting Sweeney go was one of them. It's OK.


I was/am a Sweeney fan, but all he is, is a powerless corner OFer who plays in Oakland. What pressure is there in Oakland?

Save McCuddy's
03-23-2009, 12:51 PM
If we still had Sweeney, he'd be our every day starting CF and we wouldn't have (m)any of these stupid BA threads.


Does that mean that the Swisher deal was officially a bad trade?

Thome25
03-23-2009, 12:51 PM
Green potato machine Michael nice.



Excuse me...didn't we make the playoffs last year? And when he wasn't hitting, didn't we bench him? And didn't he have to come in this offseason and earn a job? I don't understand what you are talking about.



You give all of your first round picks who have talent some time. He hit very well in AAA in 2005. In fact, he has hit well in every level until the majors. I'm not saying hand him the job, give him 600 ABs and let him hit .210/.270/.350. But I am saying he is not complete flaming garbage and deserves to continue to compete with the other (non-perfect) options we have at the position.

Bottom line: All we have is what BA has shown us......which is a gold-glove caliber CF who can't hit. And we can't sit back and wait on him forever like a person holding that lottery ticket hoping they'll get lucky and hit it one day. The White Sox and their fans have been frustrated because we've been waiting for him to break out and IMO it looks like it'll never happen.

We shouldn't settle for a guy like that just because he's the only steaming pile of crap there and that's all we got.

Leadoff Getz or Ramirez instead......don't give BA extra time IMHO.

oeo
03-23-2009, 12:52 PM
Except that he can god damn hit, and do it playing in a park that is much less hitter-friendly than the Cell. What did he do, run over your dog? You've shown absolutely nothing to defend your argument in the light of basic stats that show Sweeney would easily be the Sox's starting CF if KW hadn't ****ed up and traded him for Swisher. KW is human and he makes mistakes. Letting Sweeney go was one of them. It's OK.

The Cell is homerun friendly, not hitter friendly. He wouldn't have had a better year at the Cell, maybe some more homers, but that's it.

I don't think the Sox doubted that Sweeney could hit, but he's also not a centerfielder. He's a corner outfielder with very little power, which would make him an average to below average player.

CashMan
03-23-2009, 12:59 PM
The Cell is homerun friendly, not hitter friendly. He wouldn't have had a better year at the Cell, maybe some more homers, but that's it.

I don't think the Sox doubted that Sweeney could hit, but he's also not a centerfielder. He's a corner outfielder with very little power, which would make him an average to below average player.


I think you have just described Matt Murton.

doublem23
03-23-2009, 01:09 PM
The Cell is homerun friendly, not hitter friendly. He wouldn't have had a better year at the Cell, maybe some more homers, but that's it.

I don't think the Sox doubted that Sweeney could hit, but he's also not a centerfielder. He's a corner outfielder with very little power, which would make him an average to below average player.

Meh, he's not a career CF but the Cell has a small outfield, so it would have been easy to platoon him an BA (for visits to Comerica when there's a lot of ground to cover). At worst, Sweeney would have been a nice stopgap for the Sox while we wait and pray that Little Danks or Shelby pan out.

areilly
03-23-2009, 01:09 PM
Javy is a jagoff headcase who was an average pitcher at best

Headcase, but not average. At his best, Javy was the best.

"Average at best" would be someone like Brett Myers or Paul Byrd.

jabrch
03-23-2009, 01:10 PM
Does that mean that the Swisher deal was officially a bad trade?


When it was made - it looked (to me) to be an OK trade. I had no problem with it. Hindsight? Well - it isn't hard to say at this point that it surely wasn't good. I wonder what Marquez or the rest of that stuff turns into - but that's irrelevant since we would have had move value with Sweeney/DLS/Gio.

Trades can be evalujated at multiple points - when they are made, today, today looking back with perfect hindsight, and predictions for the future...This one, IMHO, was fine when we made it, turned bad when Swish didn't deliver, and will be tombstoned one way of the other based on what we got for him, and what the guys we gave up to get him do.

It surely looks, with hindsight, to have been a bad trade.

CashMan
03-23-2009, 01:13 PM
When it was made - it looked (to me) to be an OK trade. I had no problem with it. Hindsight? Well - it isn't hard to say at this point that it surely wasn't good. I wonder what Marquez or the rest of that stuff turns into - but that's irrelevant since we would have had move value with Sweeney/DLS/Gio.

Trades can be evalujated at multiple points - when they are made, today, today looking back with perfect hindsight, and predictions for the future...This one, IMHO, was fine when we made it, turned bad when Swish didn't deliver, and will be tombstoned one way of the other based on what we got for him, and what the guys we gave up to get him do.

It surely looks, with hindsight, to have been a bad trade.



I disagree, look at what Swisher is making and then what Abreu signed for. Factor in his salary.

doublem23
03-23-2009, 01:14 PM
Does that mean that the Swisher deal was officially a bad trade?

It was a bad trade that will be somewhat salvaged by the fact the Sox were able to unload Swisher before the FA market crashed and he still had some limited value. I'm a big KW backer, but even I can admit he overreached with the Swisher trade. I'm not worried about Gio and Fausto is so far from the Majors its hard to say what his career will amount to, but its frustrating that Sweeney, who probably could have filled the two biggest holes on this team, was dealt.

jabrch
03-23-2009, 01:15 PM
Bottom line: All we have is what BA has shown us......which is a gold-glove caliber CF who can't hit.

He has shown us that he can hit.

And we can't sit back and wait on him forever like a person holding that lottery ticket hoping they'll get lucky and hit it one day.

If you think the odds are the same, then we are just going to have to agree to disagree on this one.

We shouldn't settle for a guy like that just because he's the only steaming pile of crap there and that's all we got.

Actually, that's exactly why we will settle on whomever is our CF - because that's the best option we have.

Leadoff Getz or Ramirez instead......don't give BA extra time IMHO.

And play who in CF?

jabrch
03-23-2009, 01:15 PM
I disagree, look at what Swisher is making and then what Abreu signed for. Factor in his salary.


Huh?

Sargeant79
03-23-2009, 01:17 PM
I think you have just described Matt Murton.

Actually, that's probably about right.

Thome25
03-23-2009, 01:20 PM
He has shown us that he can hit.



If you think the odds are the same, then we are just going to have to agree to disagree on this one.



Actually, that's exactly why we will settle on whomever is our CF - because that's the best option we have.



And play who in CF?

1.) More often than not he has shown us that he CANNOT hit.....will the real BA please stand up? IMO the real BA is the one who can't hit.

2.) I agree with that.

3.)I can settle for a BA platoon in CF as long as Getz or Alexei are leading off and BA is in a galaxy far, far away from leading off.

4.) See answer # 3 above.

areilly
03-23-2009, 01:21 PM
Need I remind you of the argument with AJ? He's a jagoff with a bad attitude and doesn't have a very good head on his shoulders IMO.

What exactly was said in that argument?

And is it really that uncommon for someone to get in an argument with A.J. Pierzynski? Is Mike Scioscia a jagoff? Darrin Erstad? Josh Paul? Willy Aybar? Aaron Boone? David Ortiz? Cliff Lee? Miguel Olivo? Phil Nevin?

jabrch
03-23-2009, 01:22 PM
1.) More often than not he has shown us that he CANNOT hit.....

Not hitting, and showing that you are not capable of hitting are two totally different things.

russ99
03-23-2009, 01:22 PM
It was a bad trade that will be somewhat salvaged by the fact the Sox were able to unload Swisher before the FA market crashed and he still had some limited value. I'm a big KW backer, but even I can admit he overreached with the Swisher trade. I'm not worried about Gio and Fausto is so far from the Majors its hard to say what his career will amount to, but its frustrating that Sweeney, who probably could have filled the two biggest holes on this team, was dealt.

Actually, I think Chris Carter (he got dealt to Oakland in the Haren trade) will come back and hurt us more than any of those guys, but at least we got Quentin in that deal.

Sweeney's not a bad player, but nothing spectacular. If the A's had a better option, he'd be on the bench. He's only slightly better than we have right now, and shouldn't be a long-term solution at CF anywhere.

Gio pretty much is what he is, and who knows how Fausto will turn out, especially after that injury. If Marquez, Nunez and Betemit pan out, we could break even on the Swisher deal yet.

CashMan
03-23-2009, 01:26 PM
Huh?


Swisher is making what, 5-7mill a year? Kenny got rid of that, if it is overall value, would you not factor in, how much he is getting paid?

Thome25
03-23-2009, 01:30 PM
Not hitting, and showing that you are not capable of hitting are two totally different things.

Yeah when you can't hit your way out of a wet paper bag,(i.e. not hitting.) that shows that you are not capable of hitting.

Thome25
03-23-2009, 01:34 PM
What exactly was said in that argument?

And is it really that uncommon for someone to get in an argument with A.J. Pierzynski? Is Mike Scioscia a jagoff? Darrin Erstad? Josh Paul? Willy Aybar? Aaron Boone? David Ortiz? Cliff Lee? Miguel Olivo? Phil Nevin?

I'm not sure if any of those players and/or managers are jagoffs or not sir. All I know is Javy Vazquez(or Should I call him Baby Vazquez?) did not have his head in the game and came off as a jagbag IMO.

He never lived up to his potential and probably never will and for him it was psychological. He was an average pitcher at best IMO.

kidmccarthy
03-23-2009, 01:57 PM
I actually think BA batting first might be okay. Whats the only pitch BA can hit? A fastball. What will he see at leadoff more than any other pitch? Fastballs. Soriano lives in the leadoff because he crushes fastballs, hopefully BA can the 2 times a week he starts. Time will tell...

Thome25
03-23-2009, 02:02 PM
I actually think BA batting first might be okay. Whats the only pitch BA can hit? A fastball. What will he see at leadoff more than any other pitch? Fastballs. Soriano lives in the leadoff because he crushes fastballs, hopefully BA can the 2 times a week he starts. Time will tell...

If BA is indeed the leadoff man aginst lefties, I hope he you're right and he does well........for the Sox sake. I hope I'm wrong and he ends up having a great year. I'm not afraid to eat a big helping of crow.......but, as of right now, I'm doubtful.

Huisj
03-23-2009, 02:03 PM
I actually think BA batting first might be okay. Whats the only pitch BA can hit? A fastball. What will he see at leadoff more than any other pitch? Fastballs. Soriano lives in the leadoff because he crushes fastballs, hopefully BA can the 2 times a week he starts. Time will tell...

And since he's usually better against righties than against lefties, if he hits those fastballs in the two days he gets a chance to start, maybe he'll get more chances.

Heffalump
03-23-2009, 02:20 PM
Jeezus...April 6th can't get here fast enough.

kittle42
03-23-2009, 02:44 PM
Good. Now start him against righties, too, get him his 600 ABs, and the argument here can slowly die.

Thome25
03-23-2009, 02:46 PM
Good. Now start him against righties, too, get him his 600 ABs, and the argument here can slowly die.

I'm going to have a beer kegger the day he is traded or cut from the White Sox. Everyone here at WSI is invited. I'd rather he was off the team than getting 600 angst and disgust-filled at-bats.

BA being gone is the quickest,easiest way for the argument to die.

bradchifan3
03-23-2009, 03:01 PM
I'm going to have a beer kegger the day he is traded or cut from the White Sox. Everyone here at WSI is invited. I'd rather he was off the team than getting 600 angst and disgust-filled at-bats.

BA being gone is the quickest,easiest way for the argument to die.


Not true. The argument would continue on to his next team and we'd continue to argue about it here.

The only way this ends, is if BA hits like .280 as an everyday CF and then everyone would be happy.

Thome25
03-23-2009, 03:06 PM
Not true. The argument would continue on to his next team and we'd continue to argue about it here.

The only way this ends, is if BA hits like .280 as an everyday CF and then everyone would be happy.

You might be right. I should probably be quiet about BA getting traded or cut. I might accidentally give someone the idea for the "BA To The Giants For Uribe and Rowand<QUESTIONMARK>" Thread

I could see the first sentence now: " I was thinking, Since BA is from Tucson, Arizona he might like playing for a west coast team.....and since he hasn't been successful here maybe we could flip him to SF for I don't know Uribe and Rowand?.....What do you think?"

CashMan
03-23-2009, 03:10 PM
Not true. The argument would continue on to his next team and we'd continue to argue about it here.

The only way this ends, is if BA hits like .280 as an everyday CF and then everyone would be happy.


If BA was given a fair opportunity like he should of been in 2007, and he fails, I would accept that he sucks.

Thome25
03-23-2009, 03:12 PM
If BA was given a fair opportunity like he should of been in 2007, and he fails, I would accept that he sucks.

That's an awfully masochistic way of looking at things. Are you a glutten for punishment? Because more BA at-bats would be painful to watch.

bradchifan3
03-23-2009, 03:19 PM
That's an awfully masochistic way of looking at things. Are you a glutten for punishment? Because more BA at-bats would be painful to watch.

“If Brian Anderson would have played every day last year, he would have hit about .275 and would have hit 25 home runs, I don't think you can disagree with that.”

In Kenny I Trust.

Thome25
03-23-2009, 03:23 PM
“If Brian Anderson would have played every day last year, he would have hit about .275 and would have hit 25 home runs, I don't think you can disagree with that.”

In Kenny I Trust.


All quotes aside, If it was that simple then why don't KW and Ozzie.....who are two professionals see this and simply give him said playing time? Because the see what alot of the fans see. A good-fielding terrible-hitting outfielder who is better suited at 4th ot 5th outfielder and certainly not starting in CF or leadoff hitter.

Taliesinrk
03-23-2009, 03:24 PM
if ba was given a fair opportunity like he should of been in 2007, and he fails, i would accept that he sucks.

+2

thomas35forever
03-23-2009, 03:27 PM
Proposition: if Anderson doesn't work out for us this year, all the FOBAs on here must gather outside Comiskey in a mass before a game later this season and hold a banner high above their heads saying "We were wrong about Brian". Any takers?

bradchifan3
03-23-2009, 03:28 PM
Proposition: if Anderson doesn't work out for us this year, all the FOBAs on here must gather outside Comiskey in a mass before a game later this season and hold a banner high above their heads saying "We were wrong about Brian". Any takers?

I'm in, provided BA starts and plays practically everyday.

CashMan
03-23-2009, 03:30 PM
All quotes aside, If it was that simple then why don't KW and Ozzie.....who are two professionals see this and simply give him said playing time? Because the see what alot of the fans see. A good-fielding terrible-hitting outfielder who is better suited at 4th ot 5th outfielder and certainly not starting in CF or leadoff hitter.


Did his numbers after the all star break in 2006 show improvement? I still did not get the Erstad signing, I didn't think it was fair to BA at the time. IMHO, I think Ozzie is a terrible manager. He throws players in the doghouse, has yet to figure out how to use a bullpen staff, and has handled young pitchers in the wrong way.

soxinem1
03-23-2009, 03:44 PM
Proposition: if Anderson doesn't work out for us this year, all the FOBAs on here must gather outside Comiskey in a mass before a game later this season and hold a banner high above their heads saying "We were wrong about Brian". Any takers?

I'd be happy to, provided he is given a real shot, not some 25 AB trial which leads him to getting 65 plate apprarances over the next 100 games.

If BA were given 500 AB's, and does well, then hey, that's great. If he's given 500 AB's and blows, then, yes, it is time to face the facts.

The only other question I would have is what barometers must he reach to be considered 'doing well' or good enough to continue being a regular CF?

CashMan
03-23-2009, 03:50 PM
I'd be happy to, provided he is given a real shot, not some 25 AB trial which leads him to getting 65 plate apprarances over the next 100 games.

If BA were given 500 AB's, and does well, then hey, that's great. If he's given 500 AB's and blows, then, yes, it is time to face the facts.

The only other question I would have is what barometers must he reach to be considered 'doing well' or good enough to continue being a regular CF?


Hit better than Juan Uribe, so anything over .240.

Madscout
03-23-2009, 03:51 PM
Hit better than Juan Uribe, so anything over .240.
So the deal is hit over .240 in 500 AB. 500 AB won't happen, and the debate will go on and on...

voodoochile
03-23-2009, 04:06 PM
So the deal is hit over .240 in 500 AB. 500 AB won't happen, and the debate will go on and on...

So the standard is outhit the same as a guy who got benched for having a crappy bat last year?

Why?

Uribe had no one else who could play his position when he returned to the starting lineup. Fields was struggling after early season injuries and never found his groove and Crede was obviously unavailable.

Either Owens or Wise should be able to hit .240 - better against RHP you would assume.

I realize it's a bet to get the FOBA to admit their mistake, but man if that's the standard where they win, it's a no-brainer for them to take the bet.

Good news is if BA gets 500 AB this year it will be because he is hitting RHP well and he should exceed .240 easily if that's the case.

CashMan
03-23-2009, 04:27 PM
So the standard is outhit the same as a guy who got benched for having a crappy bat last year?

Why?

Uribe had no one else who could play his position when he returned to the starting lineup. Fields was struggling after early season injuries and never found his groove and Crede was obviously unavailable.

Either Owens or Wise should be able to hit .240 - better against RHP you would assume.

I realize it's a bet to get the FOBA to admit their mistake, but man if that's the standard where they win, it's a no-brainer for them to take the bet.

Good news is if BA gets 500 AB this year it will be because he is hitting RHP well and he should exceed .240 easily if that's the case.


I look at it as, is BA a long term solution? Yes, he was in 2006, yet Kenny signed a stop gap and stunted his growth. Is Wise a long term solution? No, he is a AAAA player who should be nothing more than a 5th OFer. Is Owens a long term solution? No, he might be fast but the goal is to get on base, and he doesn't. Kenny has put a younger team together and if he is going to have Marquez and Richard pitching I would rather have BA patrolling CF running down balls, rather than them dropping for hits. Usually every year, we have someone in the lineup, who is an offensive liability(Uribe), what changes here?

doublem23
03-23-2009, 04:32 PM
I look at it as, is BA a long term solution? Yes, he was in 2006, yet Kenny signed a stop gap and stunted his growth. Is Wise a long term solution? No, he is a AAAA player who should be nothing more than a 5th OFer. Is Owens a long term solution? No, he might be fast but the goal is to get on base, and he doesn't. Kenny has put a younger team together and if he is going to have Marquez and Richard pitching I would rather have BA patrolling CF running down balls, rather than them dropping for hits. Usually every year, we have someone in the lineup, who is an offensive liability(Uribe), what changes here?

Juan Uribe's career line is .253/.295/.423. I would do backflips if BA could be that offensively proficient.

CashMan
03-23-2009, 04:37 PM
Juan Uribe's career line is .253/.295/.423. I would do backflips if BA could be that offensively proficient.


Rather than pulling his career line, what did he hit in 2006, 07, and 08? Ohh that's right, not 250.

russ99
03-23-2009, 04:43 PM
I look at it as, is BA a long term solution? Yes, he was in 2006, yet Kenny signed a stop gap and stunted his growth.

No, he was in 2006 until he played so poorly he got benched. the stopgap would be Erstad, and he was signed in 2007.

kittle42
03-23-2009, 04:50 PM
“If Brian Anderson would have played every day last year, he would have hit about .275 and would have hit 25 home runs, I don't think you can disagree with that.”

In Kenny I Trust.

See the problem with that quote is that if he really meant it, he'd fire Ozzie Guillen - and tender his own resignation.

oeo
03-23-2009, 04:52 PM
“If Brian Anderson would have played every day last year, he would have hit about .275 and would have hit 25 home runs, I don't think you can disagree with that.”

In Kenny I Trust.

Why the hell did Kenny feel the need to go out and get another outfielder then? He went after Hunter and Fukudome, and then ended up trading for Swisher.

Kenny loves to talk up his guys.

Konerko05
03-23-2009, 04:56 PM
See the problem with that quote is that if he really meant it, he'd fire Ozzie Guillen - and tender his own resignation.

Yeah, because Ozzie has never misjudged talent. Besides last year Swisher was at least a decent option in CF (or supposed to be).

If Kenny really believes that statement and Ozzie starts Owens or Wise this season, then maybe he should consider firing Ozzie.

CashMan
03-23-2009, 05:02 PM
Yeah, because Ozzie has never misjudged talent. Besides last year Swisher was at least a decent option in CF (or supposed to be).

If Kenny really believes that statement and Ozzie starts Owens or Wise this season, then maybe he should consider firing Ozzie.


This is the same guy who said Joe Borchard was untouchable. I still laugh to this day about that.

jabrch
03-23-2009, 05:15 PM
The worst way to understand what KW/OG think is to listen to KW/OG

Konerko05
03-23-2009, 05:27 PM
The worst way to understand what KW/OG think is to listen to KW/OG

So people shouldn't dismiss it just as quickly as others believe it.

It's Dankerific
03-23-2009, 05:29 PM
Why the hell did Kenny feel the need to go out and get another outfielder then? He went after Hunter and Fukudome, and then ended up trading for Swisher.

Kenny loves to talk up his guys.

I don't remember KW trying to pick up those players THIS offseason. Thats when Kenny made his quote, about the 2008 season.

Ziggy S
03-24-2009, 02:16 AM
If Anderson is a regular starter this year, can this season be the season that we see who the winner of the BA Good/BA Bad debate is? I'm tired of that argument. This is good news because it will let us put it to bed.

If he's in a platoon situation and doesn't hit righties, the question is no more answered this year than in the last three.

Ziggy S
03-24-2009, 02:20 AM
So the standard is outhit the same as a guy who got benched for having a crappy bat last year?

Why?

Uribe had no one else who could play his position when he returned to the starting lineup. Fields was struggling after early season injuries and never found his groove and Crede was obviously unavailable.

Either Owens or Wise should be able to hit .240 - better against RHP you would assume.

I realize it's a bet to get the FOBA to admit their mistake, but man if that's the standard where they win, it's a no-brainer for them to take the bet.

Good news is if BA gets 500 AB this year it will be because he is hitting RHP well and he should exceed .240 easily if that's the case.

Wow, I love it when you paint with a broad brush. Obviously, BA is so much worse an option than JO (who can't hit, field, throw, or even run as fleet as he did two years ago) and Dwayne Wise's bat is such a considerable upgrade that he negates a really good glove.

CashMan
03-24-2009, 09:33 AM
Wow, I love it when you paint with a broad brush. Obviously, BA is so much worse an option than JO (who can't hit, field, throw, or even run as fleet as he did two years ago) and Dwayne Wise's bat is such a considerable upgrade that he negates a really good glove.


What I do not get, is all this love for Wise. He is a AAAA player.

Tragg
03-24-2009, 09:57 AM
No, he was in 2006 until he played so poorly he got benched. the stopgap would be Erstad, and he was signed in 2007.
That would be in his second game, after he had a productive first game. When has he ever been put in CF for a period and been left alone?
He has NEVER been given the unabated chance that Jerry Owens got in 2007, despite far more talent than Jerry Owens. Let's not forget that Guillen also vanquished Sweeney, who, while not great, is a much better defender than Owens or Wise and a far better hitter than all 3 of them. While Sweeney was back in AAA, Ozzie had Owens slapping his way on the big club, grounders and bloops galore, unfettered at leadoff.
I was really hoping that Williams had wrested back control over the roster and put an end to Guillen's silly stuff that he did in 2007.

CashMan
03-24-2009, 10:07 AM
I was really hoping that Williams had wrested back control over the roster and put an end to Guillen's silly stuff that he did in 2007.


Like it taking an entire year for Ozzie to realize Mack wasn't a CFer?

jabrch
03-24-2009, 10:08 AM
What I do not get, is all this love for Wise. He is a AAAA player.

I don't see any "love" for Wise.

I don't see any "love" for Owens.

Almost everyone realizes that those are suboptimal options.

There is love for BA. He's the only one of this triumverate who anyone is passionate about. And frankly, I don't get the love for him either. I hope someday he does in the majors what he has done in the minors. But all I have seen from him is considerable promise - and not enough to justify the unbridled love that runs rampant for him.

doublem23
03-24-2009, 10:10 AM
What I do not get, is all this love for Wise. He is a AAAA player.

Well I guess that's the definition of iiiiiiiiiiiiironyyyyyyy

voodoochile
03-24-2009, 11:20 AM
Wow, I love it when you paint with a broad brush. Obviously, BA is so much worse an option than JO (who can't hit, field, throw, or even run as fleet as he did two years ago) and Dwayne Wise's bat is such a considerable upgrade that he negates a really good glove.

Wise isn't exactly a turtle in a wheelchair in the outfield (thanks Kittle). At this point in the game, Owens isn't my first choice, but it's not my decision to make. If BA can't improve on his career .645 OPS against RHP, then yeah, I think someone else should be given a chance. Even an average MLB bat would be worth the small amount of defense that would be lost, IMO. I'm sorry. I just don't think BA's glove is that much better than Wise and Owens.

I'm all in favor of him getting the job he has and if in the time he gets, he proves he can hit RHP better than he has in the past, then sure, hand him the job full time, but right now I'm in favor of a platoon.

I've said that many times before. I don't think anything is gained by you continuing the discussion. We can agree to disagree.

tick53
03-24-2009, 11:20 AM
Didn't he get a slam against a righty last week? Most starter are right handed. He needs more at bats vs these pitchers.

voodoochile
03-24-2009, 11:23 AM
What I do not get, is all this love for Wise. He is a AAAA player.

Who posted close to an .800 OPS last year with 9 SB and 0 CS in 115 AB against RHP.

That's 150 points higher than BA's career OPS against RHP (316 AB).

voodoochile
03-24-2009, 11:31 AM
Didn't he get a slam against a righty last week? Most starter are right handed. He needs more at bats vs these pitchers.

Yeah, it was off of Brennan Garr who has never pitched in the majors and last year posted a 3.59 ERA with a 1.52 WHIP at AA. Maybe someone else knows more about the guy. Is he expected to have a big future?

kittle42
03-24-2009, 11:42 AM
I don't see any "love" for Wise.

I don't see any "love" for Owens.

Almost everyone realizes that those are suboptimal options.

There is love for BA. He's the only one of this triumverate who anyone is passionate about. And frankly, I don't get the love for him either. I hope someday he does in the majors what he has done in the minors. But all I have seen from him is considerable promise - and not enough to justify the unbridled love that runs rampant for him.

I love when someone succinctly states what I've been unable to for the past few months. Thanks, jab.

jabrch
03-24-2009, 11:50 AM
I love when someone succinctly states what I've been unable to for the past few months. Thanks, jab.


Out of 12,401 posts, I was overdue to make sense once... :D:

russ99
03-24-2009, 11:56 AM
That would be in his second game, after he had a productive first game. When has he ever been put in CF for a period and been left alone?
He has NEVER been given the unabated chance that Jerry Owens got in 2007, despite far more talent than Jerry Owens. Let's not forget that Guillen also vanquished Sweeney, who, while not great, is a much better defender than Owens or Wise and a far better hitter than all 3 of them. While Sweeney was back in AAA, Ozzie had Owens slapping his way on the big club, grounders and bloops galore, unfettered at leadoff.
I was really hoping that Williams had wrested back control over the roster and put an end to Guillen's silly stuff that he did in 2007.

Wow, some people really turn a blind eye to the massive shot that Anderson already got with this team.

In 2006 Anderson played 134 games (106 of those he started - 65% of the season) and he had 365 at bats - He started unabated for 3 months until his poor hitting and bad attitude (what BA really stands for) forced Ozzie to bench him.

But I guess we're supposed to conveniently forget that and assume he never got a real chance. Gee I guess Ozzie really hates him.

kittle42
03-24-2009, 12:06 PM
Wow, some people really turn a blind eye to the massive shot that Anderson already got with this team.

In 2006 Anderson played 134 games (106 of those he started - 65% of the season) and he had 365 at bats - He started unabated for 3 months until his poor hitting and bad attitude (what BA really stands for) forced Ozzie to bench him.

No one's ignoring it. There is just a group who is convinced it wasn't a real chance. They have their reasons and won't be convinced otherwise.

Jurr
03-24-2009, 12:18 PM
Wow, some people really turn a blind eye to the massive shot that Anderson already got with this team.

In 2006 Anderson played 134 games (106 of those he started - 65% of the season) and he had 365 at bats - He started unabated for 3 months until his poor hitting and bad attitude (what BA really stands for) forced Ozzie to bench him.

But I guess we're supposed to conveniently forget that and assume he never got a real chance. Gee I guess Ozzie really hates him.
Crede and Rowand received similar chances and didn't produce right away, either. Hell, Carl Everett played CF in '03 after he was acquired to replace Rowand. Crede was villified around here until he turned it up in '05.

The reason Rowand, Crede, and Uribe stayed in the Sox lineup was for DEFENSE. God forbid it takes a player more than ONE FULL SEASON to really produce at the MLB level.

If we can have Anderson hit around .250-.270 and play immaculate defense in center field (which is an ENORMOUS plus), are we really hurting?

kittle42
03-24-2009, 01:41 PM
Crede and Rowand received similar chances and didn't produce right away, either. Hell, Carl Everett played CF in '03 after he was acquired to replace Rowand. Crede was villified around here until he turned it up in '05.


Look up the numbers and game logs on baseball reference. While they weren't tearing it up, both Crede and Rowand early on were better than 2006 Brian Anderson.

If we can have Anderson hit around .250-.270 and play immaculate defense in center field (which is an ENORMOUS plus), are we really hurting?

No. But obviously the Sox wonder whether he can hit .250-.270.

oeo
03-24-2009, 01:49 PM
Crede and Rowand received similar chances and didn't produce right away, either. Hell, Carl Everett played CF in '03 after he was acquired to replace Rowand. Crede was villified around here until he turned it up in '05.

Rowand and Crede were not automatic outs like Anderson is.

If we can have Anderson hit around .250-.270 and play immaculate defense in center field (which is an ENORMOUS plus), are we really hurting?I love this. If Anderson could hit .250-.270 (that upper limit is pushing insanity), then everyone here would be on the Anderson bandwagon. What the hell gives you the idea that he can? Rowand and Crede were kept in the lineup because they were hitting .250-.270 and playing good defense. Anderson gives you about .230, however.

tm1119
03-24-2009, 01:55 PM
Look up the numbers and game logs on baseball reference. While they weren't tearing it up, both Crede and Rowand early on were better than 2006 Brian Anderson.

Crede hit .268 with 19 HR's and 68 RBI's in his 1st season with 300+ AB's and Rowand hit .298 in his rookie season(only 123 AB's) and then .258 in the next season (302 AB's). Compare that to BA's .225 AVG and .290 OBP over 365 AB's. Im pretty sure that there isnt a person here who wouldn't be very happy with BA starting if he could manage a .250 AVG with 10+ HR's and 50+ RBI's while playing good D. However, he has just yet to show that he can do that. Most of us are hoping that this is the year, but you cant blame us for not being optomistic.

jabrch
03-24-2009, 01:57 PM
If we can have Anderson hit around .250-.270 and play immaculate defense in center field (which is an ENORMOUS plus), are we really hurting?

I don't think anyone would be opposed to BA in the lineup if he did that. In particular if he was in the upper bounds of your proposed range.

However, he hasn't yet done that at the major league level - which is why we are evaluating him, and other options. Had he hit better than .225/.290/.359 in 365 ABs in 2006, it might not be an issue. Had he hit better than .232/.272/.436 in 181 ABs in 2008, it might not be an issue.

Same holds true for Wise - if he could just play better, we wouldn't be hurting.

Same holds true for Owens - if he could just play better, we wouldn't be hurting.

If BA played better, we wouldn't be hurting either. That's why he is still getting every opportunity to win a job - or at least win a piece of the job. And if he gets it, and hits in the range (in particular in the upper end) that you are talking about, you won't hear much complaining from anyone - certainly not from me.

But the proposal that some make, that we should give him 600 PAs without obstruction, and then see what happens, is less palatable to many. A young player earns PAs by performing well when he gets them. It's early - BA is only 27 and has only 600 MLB ABs. But at the same time, if we had an option that could consistently deliver the stretch goals you define for BA, that player would have the job.

kittle42
03-24-2009, 02:07 PM
I don't think anyone would be opposed to BA in the lineup if he did that. In particular if he was in the upper bounds of your proposed range.

However, he hasn't yet done that at the major league level - which is why we are evaluating him, and other options. Had he hit better than .225/.290/.359 in 365 ABs in 2006, it might not be an issue. Had he hit better than .232/.272/.436 in 181 ABs in 2008, it might not be an issue.

Same holds true for Wise - if he could just play better, we wouldn't be hurting.

Same holds true for Owens - if he could just play better, we wouldn't be hurting.

If BA played better, we wouldn't be hurting either. That's why he is still getting every opportunity to win a job - or at least win a piece of the job. And if he gets it, and hits in the range (in particular in the upper end) that you are talking about, you won't hear much complaining from anyone - certainly not from me.

But the proposal that some make, that we should give him 600 PAs without obstruction, and then see what happens, is less palatable to many. A young player earns PAs by performing well when he gets them. It's early - BA is only 27 and has only 600 MLB ABs. But at the same time, if we had an option that could consistently deliver the stretch goals you define for BA, that player would have the job.

Jab is on fire today. Well stated.

It's Dankerific
03-24-2009, 02:17 PM
But the proposal that some make, that we should give him 600 PAs without obstruction, and then see what happens, is less palatable to many. A young player earns PAs by performing well when he gets them. It's early - BA is only 27 and has only 600 MLB ABs. But at the same time, if we had an option that could consistently deliver the stretch goals you define for BA, that player would have the job.

A young player earns PAs by performing well, but not just offensively. Defense is part of the game too. The other problem is seeing Owens get so many chances to earn the regular starting job, while BA continues to be relegated to spot duty.

Its insane that Ozzie picked BA to start against lefties already, but can't name a starter against RH because the two options have sucked this spring. We're going to be starting a player (Owens or Wise) more often than the player (BA) that has taken his opportunity this spring and done well.

thedudeabides
03-24-2009, 02:35 PM
A young player earns PAs by performing well, but not just offensively. Defense is part of the game too. The other problem is seeing Owens get so many chances to earn the regular starting job, while BA continues to be relegated to spot duty.

Its insane that Ozzie picked BA to start against lefties already, but can't name a starter against RH because the two options have sucked this spring. We're going to be starting a player (Owens or Wise) more often than the player (BA) that has taken his opportunity this spring and done well.

Did I miss something? The only playing time he was ever given was when the Sox were out of it in 2007, and if I recall correctly Anderson was hurt at the time.

It's Dankerific
03-24-2009, 02:37 PM
Did I miss something? The only playing time he was ever given was when the Sox were out of it in 2007, and if I recall correctly Anderson was hurt at the time.

He's basically handed the job in the spring and then isn't able to perform even to the LOW bar they have set for him to start in the MLB. Look at this year, had he just performed barely adequately, he'd be starting (AND STILL MIGHT)!!

thedudeabides
03-24-2009, 02:42 PM
He's basically handed the job in the spring and then isn't able to perform even to the LOW bar they have set for him to start in the MLB. Look at this year, had he just performed barely adequately, he'd be starting (AND STILL MIGHT)!!

He has never been handed anything.

kittle42
03-24-2009, 02:46 PM
He's basically handed the job in the spring and then isn't able to perform even to the LOW bar they have set for him to start in the MLB. Look at this year, had he just performed barely adequately, he'd be starting (AND STILL MIGHT)!!

Owens needs 1,000 MLB ABs before you can evaluate him.

It's Dankerific
03-24-2009, 02:58 PM
He has never been handed anything.

You should go read some of the offseason news this past winter.

It's Dankerific
03-24-2009, 02:59 PM
Owens needs 1,000 MLB ABs before you can evaluate him.

#1, I never said that about BA
#2, you claim to be above the fray and make ridiculous comments like this
#3, Maybe offensively he does need that, but we certainly don't need any more time in the OF to see how bad a fielder he is.

CLR01
03-24-2009, 03:06 PM
Well it didn't take long for the losers to ruin another thread.



The FOBA are ruining this board.

doublem23
03-24-2009, 03:08 PM
Well it didn't take long for the losers to ruin another thread.



The FOBA are ruining this board.

That's right, Brian Anderson is a star and anyone who thinks otherwise should shut the hell up.

CLR01
03-24-2009, 03:10 PM
That's right, Brian Anderson is a star and anyone who thinks otherwise should shut the hell up.


I said he was a star? That's right we just make **** up in these threads.


Funny, it isn't the supposed FOBA who want to move and lock any Anderson thread. :scratch:

kittle42
03-24-2009, 03:11 PM
#1, I never said that about BA


No, you didn't. But several others have, and state it as gospel.

#2, you claim to be above the fray and make ridiculous comments like this

I'm a hypocrite. I could have said "Jerry Owens shouldn't be handcuffed with a platoon."

#3, Maybe offensively he does need that, but we certainly don't need any more time in the OF to see how bad a fielder he is.

Very true. However, the last time this team arguably gave anyone a job based on defense was in 2006, and we see how that turned out. I am not saying a position shouldn't be handed out based on defense, especially if all other things seem equal, but as I mentioned in another thread, the days of every team having the light-hitting defensive whiz are over.

kittle42
03-24-2009, 03:12 PM
I said he was a star? That's right we just make **** up in these threads.


Funny, it isn't the supposed FOBA who want to move and lock any Anderson thread. :scratch:

I'm just going to shut up and start typing +1 to all jabrch's responses, because he's right.

And I'll give It's Dankerific credit for responding to jab's statements. I think the focus should be there and not on the stupid digs we take at each other.

thedudeabides
03-24-2009, 03:23 PM
You should go read some of the offseason news this past winter.

Thanks. I will. I'm just still waiting for an opening day where he was handed a job, that's all. I don't really care about claims at the beginning of spring training. He has never been handed ****. Thankfully.

Domeshot17
03-24-2009, 03:31 PM
He has never been handed anything.

Yes he was, it has been admitted. He was handed a starting OF slot last year, and him being hurt combined with Quentin blowing up kept him in the minors when he got healthy again. This year he was touted as the front runner of the competition because of his speed and our need for a leadoff hitter.

You can argue Jerry Owens has fumbled more opportunities then Brian Anderson

Stuff like this ultimately sucks. I hate Jerry Owens. He is a poor mans Juan Pierre and Juan Pierre isn't good and we could get him FOR JERRY OWENS if we wanted in a trade. But if he is our opening day CF and lead off man, then Ill sure as hell hopes he turns into Rickey Henderson. But these BA bashers for better or worse would rather see him fail so they can live on their high ****ing horse then cheer for the guy. I mean the comment about BAD ATTITUDE??? Yes, Brian had a **** attitude and approach his rookie year. You know who says that more than anyone? BRIAN ANDERSON! When Anderson was given defensive duties and limited ABs last year we heard nothing but great things this year. All he has said this offseason was he believes he has the ability to start and he knows he has to prove it, but he wants a shot to earn it. And so far, he has outplayed any other CF option.

The truth is, Ozzie and Kenny appear to root harder for Jerry Owens because of how Brian acted as a rookie, and because it fits their "plan"

kittle42
03-24-2009, 03:34 PM
Yes he was, it has been admitted. He was handed a starting OF slot last year, and him being hurt combined with Quentin blowing up kept him in the minors when he got healthy again. This year he was touted as the front runner of the competition because of his speed and our need for a leadoff hitter.

Paraphrasing:

"We need speed and a guy who can leadoff in this lineup. We think Jerry can do that for us. He'll have every chance to show that in ST."

"If he played every day in 2008, Brian Anderson would have hit 25HRs and .270."

"DeWayne had some huge at-bats in crucial situations for us down the stretch. I won't forget that."

Could it just be that saying things like that to the press may get a guy motivated to show that the statement is right and that he deserves the job? I don't think anyone's being handed anything other than a fair chance.

It's Dankerific
03-24-2009, 03:35 PM
Yes he was, it has been admitted. He was handed a starting OF slot last year, and him being hurt combined with Quentin blowing up kept him in the minors when he got healthy again. This year he was touted as the front runner of the competition because of his speed and our need for a leadoff hitter.

Thank you =)

voodoochile
03-24-2009, 03:37 PM
I said he was a star? That's right we just make **** up in these threads.


Funny, it isn't the supposed FOBA who want to move and lock any Anderson thread. :scratch:

Not Anderson threads, CF discussion threads because the horse is dead, beating it isn't helping...

doublem23
03-24-2009, 03:43 PM
But these BA bashers for better or worse would rather see him fail so they can live on their high ****ing horse then cheer for the guy."

That is absolutely and completely false.

Just because we don't think he can succeed doesn't mean we don't want him to. I'd love for BA to hit .270 with 20 HR and stuff it in my face, problem is, I'd be giddy if he could just top his career best .232.

voodoochile
03-24-2009, 03:47 PM
Yes he was, it has been admitted. He was handed a starting OF slot last year, and him being hurt combined with Quentin blowing up kept him in the minors when he got healthy again. This year he was touted as the front runner of the competition because of his speed and our need for a leadoff hitter.

You can argue Jerry Owens has fumbled more opportunities then Brian Anderson

Stuff like this ultimately sucks. I hate Jerry Owens. He is a poor mans Juan Pierre and Juan Pierre isn't good and we could get him FOR JERRY OWENS if we wanted in a trade. But if he is our opening day CF and lead off man, then Ill sure as hell hopes he turns into Rickey Henderson. But these BA bashers for better or worse would rather see him fail so they can live on their high ****ing horse then cheer for the guy. I mean the comment about BAD ATTITUDE??? Yes, Brian had a **** attitude and approach his rookie year. You know who says that more than anyone? BRIAN ANDERSON! When Anderson was given defensive duties and limited ABs last year we heard nothing but great things this year. All he has said this offseason was he believes he has the ability to start and he knows he has to prove it, but he wants a shot to earn it. And so far, he has outplayed any other CF option.

The truth is, Ozzie and Kenny appear to root harder for Jerry Owens because of how Brian acted as a rookie, and because it fits their "plan"
This is the first time I've actually seen a BA supporter publicly acknowledge the attitude issue. Let's extrapolate on that...

If indeed BA had this attitude issue (and all signs point to the fact he wasn't taking the job seriously or at least wasn't putting forth the effort to improve and win his manager's approval and more PT) then WHY would the Sox trust him and hand him more PT. Finally the last season+ BA seems to be both healthy and mature enough to put in the time and effort to improve his game and thus he has found at least a niche position with the team. Congrats, BA! Please, anyone answer the question about PT and attitude? I personally don't want ANY player playing who isn't trying to get better unless they are already so good it's unnecessary (or at least the upside would be minimal - I mean if Manny never gets better at his job, he's stll Manny ****ing Ramirez). Other players have been mentioned in this thread to compare to BA - I'd suggest people look at the effort Crede and Rowand put in during their time with the Sox. Look how they fought tooth and nail to improve their offense and defense to land a full time job with the Sox and improve their earning prospects league wide. Finally, BA seems to be doing that. Cool.

Once again, the argument that people want to see BA fail is presented. Once again, I will say in no uncertain terms, BULL... ****! In fact I'll go one step further. It's a stupid, meaningless, crappy, redundant, asinine statement to make.

Have a great day...

kittle42
03-24-2009, 03:50 PM
That is absolutely and completely false.

Just because we don't think he can succeed doesn't mean we don't want him to. I'd love for BA to hit .270 with 20 HR and stuff it in my face, problem is, I'd be giddy if he could just top his career best .232.

I love that the advocates for Anderson being the starting CF need to validate their arguments by labeling the rest of us haters who want him to fail. I have repeatedly stated that this couldn't be further from the truth. But in today's world, no one can take a centrist position, can they?

doublem23
03-24-2009, 03:56 PM
I love that the advocates for Anderson being the starting CF need to validate their arguments by labeling the rest of us haters who want him to fail. I have repeatedly stated that this couldn't be further from the truth. But in today's world, no one can take a centrist position, can they?

The worst part of all of this is I actually prefer Brian Anderson get the majority of playing time in CF, I think he's our best option. I only take contention with the notion that he's so vastly superior to Owens and Wise that they not even merit any discussion, as if Brian has undeniably proven his worth the last few years. I like BA, but if the Sox decide to go another direction in CF I'm not going to cry about it since, as far as I'm concerned, all three stink.

CashMan
03-24-2009, 04:01 PM
The worst part of all of this is I actually prefer Brian Anderson get the majority of playing time in CF, I think he's our best option. I only take contention with the notion that he's so vastly superior to Owens and Wise that they not even merit any discussion, as if Brian has undeniably proven his worth the last few years. I like BA, but if the Sox decide to go another direction in CF I'm not going to cry about it since, as far as I'm concerned, all three stink.


Let me ask you a few questions:

1. How good is BA's defense?
2. How many years has JO been playing baseball(minor and major league)?
3. If Wise is decent, why is he 31yrs old and have a .214 lifetime avg?

doublem23
03-24-2009, 04:07 PM
Let me ask you a few questions:

1. How good is BA's defense?
2. How many years has JO been playing baseball(minor and major league)?
3. If Wise is decent, why is he 31yrs old and have a .214 lifetime avg?


Very good. Not great, not Gold Glove, but very good. (If it makes you feel better, looking at the depth charts on ESPN.com, I'd rank the projected American League CF in this order based purely on defense: (1) Sizemore, (2) Granderson, (3) Vernon Wells, (4) Upton, (5) Brian Anderson, (6) Torii Hunter, (7) Josh Hamilton, (8) Carlos Gomez, (9) Ryan Sweeney, (10) Ellsbury, (11) Adam Jones, (12) Crisp, (13) Brett Gardner, (14) Franklin Gutierrez)
I have no idea how this is relevant to anything, but Owens was drafted and started his professional career in 2003, just like Brian Anderson.
What part of "I think all three stink" did you translate into me saying that Wise is decent?

voodoochile
03-24-2009, 04:07 PM
Let me ask you a few questions:

1. How good is BA's defense?
2. How many years has JO been playing baseball(minor and major league)?
3. If Wise is decent, why is he 31yrs old and have a .214 lifetime avg?

1) Excellent - well above league average

2) don't know... 4? 5?

3) Maybe he only recently started taking things seriously after many years of goofing off. When he realized he wasn't going to be able to be a professional ball player unless he stopped drinking and carousing all hours of the night and started working on his offense and defense and trying to get better. Maybe he just finally got put in a position to succeed by not allowing him to face LHP anymore.

kittle42
03-24-2009, 04:09 PM
The worst part of all of this is I actually prefer Brian Anderson get the majority of playing time in CF, I think he's our best option. I only take contention with the notion that he's so vastly superior to Owens and Wise that they not even merit any discussion, as if Brian has undeniably proven his worth the last few years. I like BA, but if the Sox decide to go another direction in CF I'm not going to cry about it since, as far as I'm concerned, all three stink.

I agree completely.

Let me ask you a few questions:

1. How good is BA's defense?


Better than the other two, and very likely better than the majority of starting CFs in the AL.


2. How many years has JO been playing baseball(minor and major league)?


Since 2003.

3. If Wise is decent, why is he 31yrs old and have a .214 lifetime avg?

doublem didn't say Wise was decent. He said all three stink.

thedudeabides
03-24-2009, 04:11 PM
Yes he was, it has been admitted. He was handed a starting OF slot last year, and him being hurt combined with Quentin blowing up kept him in the minors when he got healthy again. This year he was touted as the front runner of the competition because of his speed and our need for a leadoff hitter.

You can argue Jerry Owens has fumbled more opportunities then Brian Anderson

Stuff like this ultimately sucks. I hate Jerry Owens. He is a poor mans Juan Pierre and Juan Pierre isn't good and we could get him FOR JERRY OWENS if we wanted in a trade. But if he is our opening day CF and lead off man, then Ill sure as hell hopes he turns into Rickey Henderson. But these BA bashers for better or worse would rather see him fail so they can live on their high ****ing horse then cheer for the guy. I mean the comment about BAD ATTITUDE??? Yes, Brian had a **** attitude and approach his rookie year. You know who says that more than anyone? BRIAN ANDERSON! When Anderson was given defensive duties and limited ABs last year we heard nothing but great things this year. All he has said this offseason was he believes he has the ability to start and he knows he has to prove it, but he wants a shot to earn it. And so far, he has outplayed any other CF option.

The truth is, Ozzie and Kenny appear to root harder for Jerry Owens because of how Brian acted as a rookie, and because it fits their "plan"

I don't even know how to respond to this. I am not a BA hater. I just can't believe how dillusional some people are on this board with the CF debates.

Anyway, I'm just angry at myself for getting involved in one of these pile of **** discussions. So, Thumbs down to me.

Domeshot17
03-24-2009, 04:12 PM
This is the first time I've actually seen a BA supporter publicly acknowledge the attitude issue. Let's extrapolate on that...

If indeed BA had this attitude issue (and all signs point to the fact he wasn't taking the job seriously or at least wasn't putting forth the effort to improve and win his manager's approval and more PT) then WHY would the Sox trust him and hand him more PT. Finally the last season+ BA seems to be both healthy and mature enough to put in the time and effort to improve his game and thus he has found at least a niche position with the team. Congrats, BA! Please, anyone answer the question about PT and attitude? I personally don't want ANY player playing who isn't trying to get better unless they are already so good it's unnecessary (or at least the upside would be minimal - I mean if Manny never gets better at his job, he's stll Manny ****ing Ramirez). Other players have been mentioned in this thread to compare to BA - I'd suggest people look at the effort Crede and Rowand put in during their time with the Sox. Look how they fought tooth and nail to improve their offense and defense to land a full time job with the Sox and improve their earning prospects league wide. Finally, BA seems to be doing that. Cool.

Once again, the argument that people want to see BA fail is presented. Once again, I will say in no uncertain terms, BULL... ****! In fact I'll go one step further. It's a stupid, meaningless, crappy, redundant, asinine statement to make.

Have a great day...

You are being completely naive if you think there are not a decent amount of BA haters ROOTING FOR HIM TO FAIL. I am not saying all, a lot have a level headed approach. But its completely clear there are people who would love to see Brian Anderson continue to suck.

Edit: and the attitude thing is nothing new. Brian came out LAST YEAR and said he went out too much his rookie year, and his 2nd year he pouted because he beat out Darrin Erstad in spring training and Erstad still got the job.

The bottom line is we played the majority of last year with Swisher putting up the same numbers BA probably would at worst over a full year, but giving us 10 fold better defense. Guys like Thome Konerko Dye Quentin, those guys producing, the pitching staff not taking a step back, Jose Contreras getting healthy, Josh Fields improving ALL OF THESE GUYS Will have MORE IMPACT on 2009 then our 9th place hitting CF will.

voodoochile
03-24-2009, 04:12 PM
I don't even know how to respond to this. I am not a BA hater. I just can't believe how dillusional some people are on this board with the CF debates.

Anyway, I'm just angry at myself for getting involved in one of these pile of **** discussions. So, Thumbs down to me.

What does being pickle crazy have to do with the current discussion? :wink:

kittle42
03-24-2009, 04:14 PM
You are being completely naive if you think there are not a decent amount of BA haters ROOTING FOR HIM TO FAIL. I am not saying all, a lot have a level headed approach. But its completely clear there are people who would love to see Brian Anderson continue to suck.

That's insane. There might be one person (who shall remain nameless, though I called him out on it this offseason and he denied it), but I challenge you to find these folks. They aren't really Sox fans, then, in my opinion.

voodoochile
03-24-2009, 04:14 PM
You are being completely naive if you think there are not a decent amount of BA haters ROOTING FOR HIM TO FAIL. I am not saying all, a lot have a level headed approach. But its completely clear there are people who would love to see Brian Anderson continue to suck.

You obviously didn't get it the first time so...

Once again, the argument that people want to see BA fail is presented. Once again, I will say in no uncertain terms, BULL... ****! In fact I'll go one step further. It's a stupid, meaningless, crappy, redundant, asinine statement to make.

Name 'em... Get some links to their post... or admit you are wrong...

thedudeabides
03-24-2009, 04:15 PM
What does being pickle crazy have to do with the current discussion? :wink:

:lol:

Well, there's all kinds of crazy being thrown around here, so I just thought I would introduce pickle crazy.

Daver
03-24-2009, 04:17 PM
Based on ST numbers Jerry Owens is trying hard for a DFA.

kittle42
03-24-2009, 04:18 PM
You obviously didn't get it the first time so...



Name 'em... Get some links to their post... or admit you are wrong...

Yup, the debate is essentially not "BA lovers" vs. "BA haters."

It is instead "People who think Brian Anderson should be the starting CF, no questions asked [for various reasons, some sound, some completely absurd]" vs. "People who don't understand how one can just assume Brian Anderson is the best candidate for all 162 games without question, and can't understand the notion that he is being held back or not allowed to blossom."

Domeshot17
03-24-2009, 04:18 PM
You obviously didn't get it the first time so...



Name 'em... Get some links to their post... or admit you are wrong...

Ill find and link as long as im not being boxed into this being a personal attack. Ill even link to the FOBA who are rooting against Owens and Wise. It goes both ways

spawn
03-24-2009, 04:29 PM
This thread is really entertaining. :popcorn:

jabrch
03-24-2009, 05:16 PM
Yup, the debate is essentially not "BA lovers" vs. "BA haters."

It is instead "People who think Brian Anderson should be the starting CF, no questions asked [for various reasons, some sound, some completely absurd]" vs. "People who don't understand how one can just assume Brian Anderson is the best candidate for all 162 games without question, and can't understand the notion that he is being held back or not allowed to blossom."


IMHO - 100% correct! I have yet to see anyone (maybe I miss most of their posts as I don't read a lot of people's garbage) say (and seriously mean it) that they hope BA fails. I have seen people hope that the other guys get cut immediately.

russ99
03-24-2009, 05:43 PM
Honestly, I'd love it if BA suddenly put it together and became the player some of you think he can become. I don't think it will happen, but that's my opinion. And if it doesn't work out that way, he'd still be a very valuable defensive replacement and help the team with his contributions, so I'm not cheering against him, despite the way it seems sometimes. I actually had a big smile on my face when he hit that grand slam last weekend...

But what I don't love is that the same people keep asking for multiple chances for one guy, for often nonsensical, biased or emotional reasons - and then not having an inkling to giving even half as many chances to another Sox player - either Owens or Wise, both of which have shown that he can also contribute to the team in different ways, even though it may not be the ways you prefer, i.e. not defense-first, slap-hitting, etc.

While we all have our favorite players, we're all Sox fans here. I don't get the hate. We don't have to put our favorites on a pedestal by knocking down other Sox players.

kittle42
03-24-2009, 05:44 PM
We don't have to put our favorites on a pedestal by knocking down other Sox players.

Well, unless your favorite is MacDougal, in which case your only hope is knocking every other player!

voodoochile
03-24-2009, 07:03 PM
Well, unless your favorite is MacDougal, in which case your only hope is knocking every other player!

Hey he pitched another scoreless inning today with two Ks. He's got a 3.6 ERA this spring. One can only hope he finally gets over his mental issues during this contract year...

SBSoxFan
03-24-2009, 08:25 PM
Hey he pitched another scoreless inning today with two Ks. He's got a 3.6 ERA this spring. One can only hope he finally gets over his mental issues during this contract year...

And 18 Ks in 10 innings. Take that all you MacDougal haters!

oeo
03-24-2009, 08:28 PM
Hey he pitched another scoreless inning today with two Ks. He's got a 3.6 ERA this spring. One can only hope he finally gets over his mental issues during this contract year...

Mental issues? He just can't control his stuff.

FedEx227
03-24-2009, 08:32 PM
His mechanics are atrocious... you can be that definitely doesn't help his control.

Daver
03-24-2009, 08:37 PM
His mechanics are atrocious... you can be that definitely doesn't help his control.

You can have atrocious mechanics and good control, Kerry Wood and Chad Bradford are proof of it.

FedEx227
03-24-2009, 08:40 PM
Not if you head and shoulder flies open as much as Mac's does.

champagne030
03-24-2009, 08:46 PM
You can have atrocious mechanics and good control, Kerry Wood and Chad Bradford are proof of it.

Last season is the only year that Wood had decent control.

Daver
03-24-2009, 08:55 PM
Not if you head and shoulder flies open as much as Mac's does.

Randy Johnson had a similar problem, granted not as bad, but bad enough that the Expos gave up on him.

Last season is the only year that Wood had decent control.

This made me laugh.

oeo
03-24-2009, 08:56 PM
His mechanics are atrocious... you can be that definitely doesn't help his control.

For sure. I remember seeing him pitching for Charlotte down in Indy in 2007, and he couldn't even keep his hat on his head.

champagne030
03-24-2009, 09:10 PM
This made me laugh.

4 1/2 walks per 9 doesn't make me laugh. :shrug:

Daver
03-24-2009, 09:12 PM
4 1/2 walks per 9 doesn't make me laugh. :shrug:

A strikeout pitcher with a high walk rate, imagine that.

Your statement still makes me laugh.

champagne030
03-24-2009, 09:37 PM
A strikeout pitcher with a high walk rate, imagine that.

Your statement still makes me laugh.

And that's why his pitch count was 100+ after 5. I'm still laughing that you think he had good control.

Daver
03-24-2009, 09:40 PM
And that's why his pitch count was 100+ after 5. I'm still laughing that you think he had good control.

Yeah, all those strikeouts were against guys with no plate discipline.

Pitch count is a meaningless number.

champagne030
03-24-2009, 09:57 PM
Pitch count is a meaningless number.

Maybe in 1973, but in 2009 it does have meaning. Nobody lets a pitcher go above 130 anymore. And 100 is when most managers start getting the bullpen on alert. Not saying it's right or cannot change, but that's the way it is these days.

Daver
03-24-2009, 09:58 PM
Maybe in 1973, but in 2009 it does have meaning. Nobody lets a pitcher go above 130 anymore. And 100 is when most managers start getting the bullpen on alert. Not saying it's right or cannot change, but that's the way it is these days.

What, exactly, is the criteria behind determining a pitch count number?

FedEx227
03-24-2009, 10:00 PM
For sure. I remember seeing him pitching for Charlotte down in Indy in 2007, and he couldn't even keep his hat on his head.

I wonder if you were at the same games I was.

He came in with I think a 3-4 run lead, got the bases loaded and eventually got himself out of it.

jabrch
03-24-2009, 10:04 PM
What, exactly, is the criteria behind determining a pitch count number?


I think (2^6 * 3) + 4

Daver
03-24-2009, 10:07 PM
I think (2^6 * 3) + 4

Don't give him any clues, next he is going to tell me that strikeouts don't count in judging control because it is the batters fault that he struck out.

champagne030
03-24-2009, 10:08 PM
What, exactly, is the criteria behind determining a pitch count number?

I don't know the criteria, but the reason they try to limit it is because teams believe that above a certain number it leads to injury. Right or wrong that's SOP for every team these days. Well, maybe Texas is going away from that if the reports I hear about Ryan are correct.

Daver
03-24-2009, 10:13 PM
I don't know the criteria, but the reason they try to limit it is because teams believe that above a certain number it leads to injury.

Pitchers get hurt because they don't throw enough, it has been proven.

You don't know the criteria because there is none, it was asked to prove your ignorance on the subject.

champagne030
03-24-2009, 10:18 PM
Pitchers get hurt because they don't throw enough, it has been proven.



Okay, glad you finally agree. Kerry Wood doesn't throw enough and because he lacks control he's unable to go past 5 2/3 innings. And thanks for proving that pitch count is relevant in 2009 because they don't throw enough.

Daver
03-24-2009, 10:22 PM
it was asked to prove your ignorance on the subject.

This still holds true.

champagne030
03-24-2009, 10:27 PM
This still holds true.

And what intelligence did you bring to the discussion? Other than proving that my statement that pitch count is relevant in 2009?

guillensdisciple
03-24-2009, 10:30 PM
I am not picking sides in the argument, but I have been of the belief that if you teach a person to throw longer, then their workload won't be a problem injury-wise in the majors. Now-a-days pitchers aren't given such workloads, and have a higher risk of injury when asked to pitch on a regular basis.

I might be wrong, but if we slowly groom our baseball players from youth to gain stronger and stronger arms on a yearly basis, this subject won't even be a discussion.

Daver
03-24-2009, 10:31 PM
And what intelligence did you bring to the discussion? Other than proving that my statement that pitch count is relevant in 2009?

It isn't, and I never said that.

Do your own homework, if you think In am going to help you prove you aren't an idiot you have another thing coming.

CLR01
03-24-2009, 10:46 PM
This thread is supposed to be about Brian Anderson being the worst player to ever play baseball at any level. Please find another thread to ruin. :tiphat:

champagne030
03-24-2009, 10:48 PM
Pitch count is a meaningless number.

It isn't, and I never said that.

Do your own homework, if you think In am going to help you prove you aren't an idiot you have another thing coming.


Actually you did. And now I'm called an idiot for calling you on it. :scratch:

kittle42
03-24-2009, 10:53 PM
This thread is supposed to be about Brian Anderson being the worst player to ever play baseball at any level. Please find another thread to ruin.

Go help Domeshot find the threads where people were rooting for Anderson to fail. That's time well spent.

champagne030
03-24-2009, 10:54 PM
This thread is supposed to be about Brian Anderson being the worst player to ever play baseball at any level. Please find another thread to ruin. :tiphat:

You're right! I've tried to stay away from this BA thread and now I'm educating people about general baseball in the wrong thread.

:redface:

Johnny Mostil
03-24-2009, 10:56 PM
However late, I can't resist honoring the Tomato Man . . .

:tomatoaward :tomatoaward

Daver
03-24-2009, 10:58 PM
Actually you did. And now I'm called an idiot for calling you on it. :scratch:

Your called an idiot for poor reading skills too now.

It's OK, there are a lot of people with poor reading comprehension, stand tall and accept your place among them.

CLR01
03-24-2009, 10:58 PM
Go help Domeshot find the threads where people were rooting for Anderson to fail. That's time well spent.

Just do a search for Anderson. :shrug:

thedudeabides
03-24-2009, 11:03 PM
This thread is supposed to be about Brian Anderson being the worst player to ever play baseball at any level. Please find another thread to ruin. :tiphat:

A Brian Anderson thread highjacked. Oh, the irony.

Johnny Mostil
03-24-2009, 11:16 PM
Just do a search for Anderson. :shrug:

Silly but possibly funny stat: I searched "Anderson" and found 11 of the 12 most recent threads on him excceeded 100 posts. By contrast, only five of the past dozen on "Buehrle" reached 100, and only six of the past dozen on "Viciedo" did so.

Serious (or half-serious) question(s). Is this because . . .
. . . of frustration over how the Sox have handled CF?
. . . of frustration over how the Sox develop (or don't develop) talent?
. . . of frustration with Guillen not expressed elsewhere?
. . . the battle is more heated when the stakes are more petty (i.e., when arguing about "suboptimal" options?)?
. . . of something else?

For the record, I'd probably give Anderson the job full-time, but honestly haven't followed this closely enough to argue strongly for that (or, obviously, understand all the arguments here) . . .

champagne030
03-24-2009, 11:36 PM
Your called an idiot for poor reading skills too now.

It's OK, there are a lot of people with poor reading comprehension, stand tall and accept your place among them.

How am I supposed to comprehend that pitch count is meaningless? And then you post that pitch count does matter?

You posted incorrectly and that's okay. I won't hold it against you.

kittle42
03-24-2009, 11:46 PM
Just do a search for Anderson. :shrug:

You guys are so wrong.

Ziggy S
03-25-2009, 04:03 AM
Star Search?

BleacherBandit
03-25-2009, 04:06 AM
I think WSI should create "I love BA" shirts and "I hate BA" shirts. We can buy them and wear them to games, and we'll be able to identify those who we can't talk to. It'd be fun.

Carolina Kenny
03-25-2009, 08:39 AM
Silly but possibly funny stat: I searched "Anderson" and found 11 of the 12 most recent threads on him excceeded 100 posts. By contrast, only five of the past dozen on "Buehrle" reached 100, and only six of the past dozen on "Viciedo" did so.

Serious (or half-serious) question(s). Is this because . . .
. . . of frustration over how the Sox have handled CF?
. . . of frustration over how the Sox develop (or don't develop) talent?
. . . of frustration with Guillen not expressed elsewhere?
. . . the battle is more heated when the stakes are more petty (i.e., when arguing about "suboptimal" options?)?
. . . of something else?

For the record, I'd probably give Anderson the job full-time, but honestly haven't followed this closely enough to argue strongly for that (or, obviously, understand all the arguments here) . . .

The Sox have a long and storied history of outstanding CF play. Due to the size of old Comiskey, they always stressed great centerfielders, until they move to the Cell. Just off the top of my head:

Happy Felsh
Johnny Mostil
Harry Hooper
Jim Landis
Tommy Agee

Even second tier guys were better than our current crop:
Ken Berry
Bobby Molinero
Darrin Jackson

Compare this to:
Mack O Wak
Owens
Wise

This is why I am upset at the CF issue. Yes, BA is our modern version of Ken Berry, but its a different era and a different ballpark.

But this issue is going on and on, year after year. Please stop the madness and solidify the position already.

Carolina Kenny
03-25-2009, 08:40 AM
The Sox have a long and storied history of outstanding CF play. Due to the size of old Comiskey, they always stressed great centerfielders, until they move to the Cell. Just off the top of my head:

Happy Felsh
Johnny Mostil
Harry Hooper
Jim Landis
Tommy Agee

Even second tier guys were better than our current crop:
Ken Berry
Bobby Molinero
Darrin Jackson

Compare this to:
Mack O Wak
Owens
Wise

This is why I am upset at the CF issue. Yes, BA is our modern version of Ken Berry, but its a different era and a different ballpark.

But this issue is going on and on, year after year. Please stop the madness and solidify the position already.

And I would add Dave Martinez. I wish we had someone comparable to him now.

Carolina Kenny
03-25-2009, 08:41 AM
And I would add Dave Martinez. I wish we had someone comparable to him now.

Sorry I forgot about One Dog. You see, center fielders CAN be found.

gr8mexico
03-25-2009, 08:50 AM
The Sox have a long and storied history of outstanding CF play. Due to the size of old Comiskey, they always stressed great centerfielders, until they move to the Cell. Just off the top of my head:

Happy Felsh
Johnny Mostil
Harry Hooper
Jim Landis
Tommy Agee

Even second tier guys were better than our current crop:
Ken Berry
Bobby Molinero
Darrin Jackson

Compare this to:
Mack O Wak
Owens
Wise

This is why I am upset at the CF issue. Yes, BA is our modern version of Ken Berry, but its a different era and a different ballpark.

But this issue is going on and on, year after year. Please stop the madness and solidify the position already.
Can Lance Johnson still play?

Madscout
03-25-2009, 08:54 AM
Silly but possibly funny stat: I searched "Anderson" and found 11 of the 12 most recent threads on him excceeded 100 posts. By contrast, only five of the past dozen on "Buehrle" reached 100, and only six of the past dozen on "Viciedo" did so.

Serious (or half-serious) question(s). Is this because . . .
. . . of frustration over how the Sox have handled CF?
. . . of frustration over how the Sox develop (or don't develop) talent?
. . . of frustration with Guillen not expressed elsewhere?
. . . the battle is more heated when the stakes are more petty (i.e., when arguing about "suboptimal" options?)?
. . . of something else?

For the record, I'd probably give Anderson the job full-time, but honestly haven't followed this closely enough to argue strongly for that (or, obviously, understand all the arguments here) . . .
Find me 20 posters who will argue that Mark sucks, and I will show you 20 people who aren't Sox fans.

spawn
03-25-2009, 08:55 AM
I think WSI should create "I love BA" shirts and "I hate BA" shirts. We can buy them and wear them to games, and we'll be able to identify those who we can't talk to. It'd be fun.
The problem with this is, I have yet to see anyone here say they hate BA, a fact which is lost on the FOBA here. The only thing I've seen around here with those in the supposed anti-FOBA coalition is he shouldn't just be handed the starting CF position. I haven't seen anyone say they hope he fails. What I've seen is people not exactly being blown over by his body of work to just hand him the starting spot. What is also being stated around here is that JO and Wise don't inspire confidence either, but no one has stepped up to claim the position. But these people are just viewed and labeled as BA haters, so the hamster wheel continues to go around and around.

Johnny Mostil
03-25-2009, 09:40 AM
Find me 20 posters who will argue that Mark sucks, and I will show you 20 people who aren't Sox fans.

Oh, I agree. And, going back to CLR's point, there's been so much said about Anderson that I'm guessing one can find anything in the threads about him. But much new? I'm not sure whether to be amused, bemused, or confused . . .

Carolina Kenny
03-25-2009, 09:54 AM
I don't hate BA. I just have a opinion on him.

He is above leauge average defensively. Is he at their prime as good defensively as Tori Hunter, Jim Landis, Ken Berry? No.

In comparison to the stiffs we continually run out there, he is way, way above average which may elevate him to defensive god status.

If you run him out there for 550 at bats you would probably get a range of .235 to .270 with 12-15 HRs.

Many of those bats he would look lost and overmatched and sometimes he might surprise with unexpected power. I think his batting faults would eventually be exposed the more you play him.

Tragg
03-25-2009, 09:55 AM
What about Kroger?
He's hitting the ball hard, and he has played CF before. Can his D be any worse than Wise's?

jabrch
03-25-2009, 10:13 AM
If you run him out there for 550 at bats you would probably get a range of .235 to .270 with 12-15 HRs.

That's a HUGE range. The upper bound would be more than acceptable. The middle ground would be just fine - and would be well above anything he has yet done at the MLB level. And the lower bound would be somewhat yucky - and would warrant him platoon time with the other CF options we have.

oeo
03-25-2009, 10:19 AM
I wonder if you were at the same games I was.

He came in with I think a 3-4 run lead, got the bases loaded and eventually got himself out of it.

Probably, it was in early June, I think. The Knights are usually only there once a year. I don't remember exactly how he performed, I just clearly remember his hat coming off his head on a couple different instances from that herky-jerky motion...my brother caught one with his camera, hat in mid-air.

Madscout
03-25-2009, 10:22 AM
That's a HUGE range. The upper bound would be more than acceptable. The middle ground would be just fine - and would be well above anything he has yet done at the MLB level. And the lower bound would be somewhat yucky - and would warrant him platoon time with the other CF options we have.
However, with the options we have, that may be what we have to live with. I don't think you can throw Wise out there against RHP 4 or 5 days a week and have him sustain success that we saw him have in September last year while playing good defense in CF. I think Brian will go out and hit .240-.250, which is what we got from Uribe most months. If I were him, I would be working on reducing my strike out rate, and putting the ball in play more, because with his numbers this spring and in the past, that is the thing that worries me most.

areilly
03-25-2009, 10:38 AM
He is above leauge average defensively. Is he at their prime as good defensively as Tori Hunter, Jim Landis, Ken Berry? No.

I never saw Landis or Berry play, but I would not hesitate to say BA's defense rivals anything Hunter was ever capable of.