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WHILEPITCH
03-22-2009, 12:48 PM
Why cant we nail this aspect of the game down. A couple years now.

You have to identify team need and address it. OC was alright, Swisher projected to be alright and then wasnt.




But this year, I feel like we've sort of abandoned it again. I would peg Getz as, at his best, potentially having slightly worse hitting stats as the 07-08 Orlando Cabrera. Just for Year 1 that is.

Someone else brought the comparison of Theriot's year one being a .266 hitter who got walks.



This organization should have moved some of our younger all-or-nothing hitters in order to replace some of the older all-or-nothing guys. I wont get too upset before the year starts, but I really wish the excitement on these boards had been met with at least one top of the order acquisition from JR/KW.

Frater Perdurabo
03-22-2009, 01:12 PM
Part of the "problem" (for lack of a better term) is the park. Hits and walks are the primary contributors to OBP (HBPs are comparatively rare), and the Cell actually discourages both.

The short fences in LF, LCF, RCF and RF tempt hitters to try to swing for the fences. Consequently, they walk less because they swing more.

Second, the small gaps mean that there are few places for fly balls, soft liners and duck snorts to fall, meaning that batting averages generally will be lower at the Cell.

Third, the small gaps and short fences mean that the Sox have de-emphasized hitting for average (since the Cell will lower one's batting average) and instead emphasized power (since the Cell will cause one's HR numbers to increase). Consequently, the Sox are more likely to sign, re-sign, trade for, draft, promote, and develop, high-power, low-average hitters.

Craig Grebeck
03-22-2009, 01:14 PM
Part of the "problem" (for lack of a better term) is the park. Hits and walks are the primary contributors to OBP (HBPs are comparatively rare), and the Cell actually discourages both.

The short fences in LF, LCF, RCF and RF tempt hitters to try to swing for the fences. Consequently, they walk less because they swing more.

Second, the small gaps mean that there are few places for fly balls, soft liners and duck snorts to fall, meaning that batting averages generally will be lower at the Cell.

Third, the small gaps and short fences mean that the Sox have de-emphasized hitting for average (since the Cell will lower one's batting average) and instead emphasized power (since the Cell will cause one's HR numbers to increase). Consequently, the Sox are more likely to sign, re-sign, trade for, draft, promote, and develop, high-power, low-average hitters.
Please provide some evidence for the bolded statement. I think it's misleading, and I've looked into a few guys (namely Jim Thome) and found that they walk more at home.

WHILEPITCH
03-22-2009, 01:18 PM
Teams with OBP guys still come into our park and give us a drubbing. Even with the park's dimensions, the teams that have those top of the order hitters come in and find those gaps game by game more than we do.

I would agree with the FO that you cant try and be a small ball team 1-9 in this park.


But just fill the top two slots of the order one of these years.

Frater Perdurabo
03-22-2009, 01:22 PM
Please provide some evidence for the bolded statement. I think it's misleading, and I've looked into a few guys (namely Jim Thome) and found that they walk more at home.

By evidence, you mean lots of numbers and a graph, right? Sorry, baseball is played on the field, not on a spreadsheet.

No player will openly admit he's swinging for the fences, but it's given away by the frequent uppercuts many of our current (at times Paulie, Dye, Thome) and recent former (Uribe, Crede) hitters so frequently take. Uribe and Crede were the worst, so maybe things will get better this year. Notice I wrote FREQUENT. They aren't ALWAYS swinging for the fences, but do so FREQUENTLY.

The bad habits they develop at home - swinging for the fences - carry over to the road.

Frater Perdurabo
03-22-2009, 01:25 PM
Teams with OBP guys still come into our park and give us a drubbing. Even with the park's dimensions, the teams that have those top of the order hitters come in and find those gaps game by game more than we do.

I would agree with the FO that you cant try and be a small ball team 1-9 in this park.

But just fill the top two slots of the order one of these years.

Who drubs the Sox at the Cell? The Sox seem to have had a pretty good home record over the years.

Nevertheless, I agree with your last statement - it would be great to have two speedy, high-OBP guys who run the bases well on base when our thumpers come up to bat.

delben91
03-22-2009, 01:38 PM
it would be great to have two speedy, high-OBP guys who run the bases well on base when our thumpers come up to bat.

I agree with your general point, but aren't there high-OBP guys that aren't speedy? Seems that high-OBP and footspeed aren't naturally mutually inclusive nor exclusive.

Frater Perdurabo
03-22-2009, 01:43 PM
I agree with your general point, but aren't there high-OBP guys that aren't speedy? Seems that high-OBP and footspeed aren't naturally mutually inclusive nor exclusive.

There are guys who are slow but have a high OBP (Manny, Ortiz, Frank, Thome), but I don't think they belong hitting #1 or #2.

I don't think the ability to steal 50 bases is the most important thing, but I at least would like my leadoff and #2 hitters to be able to go from first to third on a single or score from first on a double.

Tragg
03-22-2009, 02:00 PM
I don't think the ability to steal 50 bases is the most important thing, but I at least would like my leadoff and #2 hitters to be able to go from first to third on a single or score from first on a double.
That's another argument for Alexei.
We sent away our best OBP young player in the Swisher trade; Sweeney's not great, but he hits better than our CF candidates and his D is better than all but Anderson.
I think JD has intrinsically good patience....but he bats 5th for us, and there's generally been a big dropoff behind him, so it's better for him to be aggressive. He'd be a good #3 hitter (but we have a good 3 hitter)

Craig Grebeck
03-22-2009, 04:53 PM
By evidence, you mean lots of numbers and a graph, right? Sorry, baseball is played on the field, not on a spreadsheet.

No player will openly admit he's swinging for the fences, but it's given away by the frequent uppercuts many of our current (at times Paulie, Dye, Thome) and recent former (Uribe, Crede) hitters so frequently take. Uribe and Crede were the worst, so maybe things will get better this year. Notice I wrote FREQUENT. They aren't ALWAYS swinging for the fences, but do so FREQUENTLY.

The bad habits they develop at home - swinging for the fences - carry over to the road.
You implicitly stated that Sox players walked less at home because of USCF. One would think, if you were right, the numbers would agree.

Also, no need to be snide. You made a quantitative statement -- I asked you to provide some evidence for it. Cry me a river.

WhiteSox5187
03-22-2009, 05:02 PM
By evidence, you mean lots of numbers and a graph, right? Sorry, baseball is played on the field, not on a spreadsheet.

No player will openly admit he's swinging for the fences, but it's given away by the frequent uppercuts many of our current (at times Paulie, Dye, Thome) and recent former (Uribe, Crede) hitters so frequently take. Uribe and Crede were the worst, so maybe things will get better this year. Notice I wrote FREQUENT. They aren't ALWAYS swinging for the fences, but do so FREQUENTLY.

The bad habits they develop at home - swinging for the fences - carry over to the road.

LIES!

I don't think that it's that the Sox don't have a lot of high OBP guys (Thome, Dye and Quentin all had high OBPs last year) the problem is those guys are all slow. Now since they hit for power you're willing to sacrifice speed. But if your primary attribute as a baseball player is that you have a high OBP and nothing else (such as Nick Swisher, though he has some power), you're not a very good baseball player.

Frater Perdurabo
03-22-2009, 05:14 PM
You implicitly stated that Sox players walked less at home because of USCF. One would think, if you were right, the numbers would agree.

Also, no need to be snide. You made a quantitative statement -- I asked you to provide some evidence for it. Cry me a river.

Sorry for being snide. I did not say or mean to say that they walked less at home than on the road.

I said that they walked less because of who they are, how they are coached, and because their overall approach to hitting is shaped in large part by their home field.

If the Sox played 81 home games a year in a comparatively larger park like Dodger Stadium or Yankee Stadium or Coors Field - they would build their team differently (through signings, re-signings, trades, drafting, developing, promoting, etc.) than they do now, playing 81 games per year at the Cell.

Moreover, if they played in a large park, the players that they would have would be less likely to swing for the fences - in part because they would be different players (due to a different organizational philosophy that would fit this larger park) but also in part because they would have been conditioned to playing 81 home games in a larger park, where there are fewer rewards for swinging for the fences.

There is no way to test my argument with numbers, because we cannot put the White Sox organization in a different park for 81 homes games a year.

What we can do, however, is compare the Sox to other teams. And the Sox, comparatively, have higher home run totals and lower batting averages and on-base percentages than "league average" teams. I'm just saying that this is due in large part to their home stadium, and their organizational philosophy that is crafted in part to fit their home stadium.

Konerko05
03-22-2009, 06:02 PM
Please provide some evidence for the bolded statement. I think it's misleading, and I've looked into a few guys (namely Jim Thome) and found that they walk more at home.

This probably has to do with comfort level and U.S. Cellular's batter's eye.

JorgeFabregas
03-22-2009, 06:06 PM
I would peg Getz as, at his best, potentially having slightly worse hitting stats as the 07-08 Orlando Cabrera. Just for Year 1 that is.

I would guess he'll have less power, but he very well may meet or suprass OC's 2008 OBP.

Konerko05
03-22-2009, 06:14 PM
LIES!

I don't think that it's that the Sox don't have a lot of high OBP guys (Thome, Dye and Quentin all had high OBPs last year) the problem is those guys are all slow. Now since they hit for power you're willing to sacrifice speed. But if your primary attribute as a baseball player is that you have a high OBP and nothing else (such as Nick Swisher, though he has some power), you're not a very good baseball player.

The problem is not having high OBP guys hitting around the power guys. Or a lack of power guys with a decent OBP.

I also wouldn't consider Dye a high OBP guy. He has a career .338 OBP. It's not horrible, but I wouldn't consider it high. Konerko can be a decent OBP guy when he isn't hitting .240.

Unfortunately the only players who actually draw a decent amount of walks are Thome, Quentin, and Konerko. Although Thome's and Konerko's OBP will be dictated by their declining batting averages. Getz should also have decent plate discipline.

I guess what I'm saying is the Sox are going to hit many solo homeruns in 2009.

Tragg
03-25-2009, 08:53 AM
Power hitters walk a lot (regardless of their eye) because they get pitched around.

If you walk a lot, and aren't a power hitter, you will also take a lot of called 3rd strikes. See Nick Swisher. Called 3rd strikes piss off Guillen. Therefore, our secondary hitters don't walk much.
It will be interesting to see how if Getz can maintain his OBP (which has been consistently solid in the minors) against ML pitching; or Owens, who is being lauded for his walking in the spring, if he makes the roster.

Madscout
03-25-2009, 09:17 AM
Power hitters walk a lot (regardless of their eye) because they get pitched around.

If you walk a lot, and aren't a power hitter, you will also take a lot of called 3rd strikes. See Nick Swisher. Called 3rd strikes piss off Guillen. Therefore, our secondary hitters don't walk much.
It will be interesting to see how if Getz can maintain his OBP (which has been consistently solid in the minors) against ML pitching; or Owens, who is being lauded for his walking in the spring, if he makes the roster.
I don't think he will, because he has shown that he isn't go to kill you with XBH and MLB pitchers can throw strikes, unlike the mLB pitchers he is seeing. Notice the sudden drop in Average from all three players for the CF job coenciding with the first spring cuts...

doublem23
03-25-2009, 10:18 AM
Please provide some evidence for the bolded statement. I think it's misleading, and I've looked into a few guys (namely Jim Thome) and found that they walk more at home.

And that would make sense since the short fences in the park, pitchers would be wise to be more careful with boppers like Thome, Quentin, etc. since any mistake is more likely to land in the bleachers at the Cell.

It's a two-way street.