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View Full Version : Cubs to retire #31 (Jenkins and Maddux)


Foulke You
03-19-2009, 03:28 PM
I didn't see this posted anywhere:

http://www.suntimes.com/sports/baseball/cubs/1484772,CST-SPT-retire19.article

Jenkins is a no-brainer for the Cubs and should have been retired a long time ago and while I agree that Maddux should have his #31 retired, it should be for the Braves.

Dan McNeil apparently is in agreement with me although I disagree with his Chelios analogy:
http://www.suntimes.com/sports/mcneil/1485787,CST-SPT-mac19.article

PatK
03-19-2009, 03:41 PM
I agree.

The bulk of Maddux's career, and his most success, was with Atlanta. He did have 2-3 awesome seasons with the Cubs, but you don't retire a guy's number for 2-3 years.

voodoochile
03-19-2009, 03:42 PM
I agree.

The bulk of Maddux's career, and his most success, was with Atlanta. He did have 2-3 awesome seasons with the Cubs, but you don't retire a guy's number for 2-3 years.

Especially not when he turned down your higher offer to go play for someone else strictly because he thought you were a bunch of losers...

RedHeadPaleHoser
03-19-2009, 03:47 PM
Agree on Jenkins. Maddux is a warm fuzzy for "this" generation of Cub fans.

beasly213
03-19-2009, 04:00 PM
Yea I don't get this.

Maddux had 11 years with the Braves where his ERA never went above 3.96.

Seven of those years his ERA was below 3

With the Cubs he had 5 years where his ERA was below 4 and only 2 years where his ERA was below 3.

Well we all have our gaffs. The Sox gave Harold Baines a Statue and The Cubs are retiring Greg Maddux's number.

eriqjaffe
03-19-2009, 04:12 PM
Well we all have our gaffs. The Sox gave Harold Baines a Statue:scratch:

What the Cubs are doing is really more like if the Sox gave Goose Gossage a statue.

mrfourni
03-19-2009, 04:16 PM
Well we all have our gaffs. The Sox gave Harold Baines a Statue and The Cubs are retiring Greg Maddux's number.

:scratch:

What the Cubs are doing is really more like if the Sox gave Goose Gossage a statue.

I agree with eriqjaffe, there are people here who think Harold should be in the HOF. I don't think you're going to win that argument on this board beasly.

oeo
03-19-2009, 04:21 PM
I agree with eriqjaffe, there are people here who think Harold should be in the HOF. I don't think you're going to win that argument on this board beasly.

I don't get his point. It appears that everyone who has their number retired is getting a statue...so Harold's statue goes hand-in-hand with his number being retired.

TommyJohn
03-19-2009, 04:54 PM
:scratch:

What the Cubs are doing is really more like if the Sox gave Goose Gossage a statue.
I would say it is more in line with if they were going to retire Gossage's number. Sure, Gossage was a Hall-of-Fame pitcher, but he left Chicago with his greatest years ahead of him. Same with Maddux.

JermaineDye05
03-19-2009, 05:11 PM
Who cares? He's a Hof, he started with the Cubs. Although his period with the Cubs is not what people think of when they think of Maddux, I think it's fine if the organization wants to retire his number. The Braves can always retire his number too if they want. I'll be honest, I'm not one who's too clear about all the rules but can't the Braves also retire 31 if they wanted too?

TDog
03-19-2009, 07:14 PM
Jenkins, of course, deserves the honor. Maddux doesn't. But if Maddux wore the number after Jenkins and most fans you see at Wrigley during the summer had no idea that Jenkins more Maddux's number, you pretty much have to include Maddux in the honor.

The Cubs, pretty much, are the equivalent of Baseball for Dummies.

Hitmen77
03-19-2009, 08:17 PM
I don't see what the big deal is of them retiring Maddux too. They're already retiring #31 for Jenkins. If Maddux had the same number, then including Maddux makes sense to me.

TheOldRoman
03-19-2009, 11:19 PM
If anything, the Cubs retiring it for Maddux is a blunder akin to the Sox retiring Baines' number before he retired. It is humiliating. This guy was one of the best ever, but only AFTER he left Chicago and won 4 more Cy Youngs and a world championship. Meanwhile, the Cubs were the laughingstock of baseball for eleven more years. To make matters worse, he came back to them when the Braves no longer wanted him, and he was old and fat and pitched mediocrely (I think I inveted that word) for them.

eriqjaffe
03-20-2009, 08:08 AM
I don't see what the big deal is of them retiring Maddux too. They're already retiring #31 for Jenkins. If Maddux had the same number, then including Maddux makes sense to me.That explains why the Sox retired #42 for Jackie Robinson and Ron Kittle.

guillensdisciple
03-20-2009, 08:14 AM
Maddux could provide a huge slap to the face of any braves fan by getting into the hall of fame with a Cubs hat. If the hall of fame people are as bias as ESPN and the trib are, then we might see that happen.

voodoochile
03-20-2009, 09:46 AM
Maddux could provide a huge slap to the face of any braves fan by getting into the hall of fame with a Cubs hat. If the hall of fame people are as bias as ESPN and the trib are, then we might see that happen.

Paranoid much? NO chance in Hell he goes in wearing anything but a Braves cap.

Hitmen77
03-20-2009, 09:59 AM
That explains why the Sox retired #42 for Jackie Robinson and Ron Kittle.

LOL. Actually if there is any #42 the Sox should retire it should be for Al Lopez.

beasly213
03-20-2009, 10:48 AM
Paranoid much? NO chance in Hell he goes in wearing anything but a Braves cap.

Agreed. I was actually having an argument with my friend the other day about this. He for some reason thought Maddux would go in with a Cubs hat.

soxfanreggie
03-20-2009, 10:51 AM
I don't necessarily agree with retiring it for Maddux, but they can do whatever they want to do. I wonder why the Braves didn't announce they were doing this first.

Boondock Saint
03-20-2009, 11:12 AM
I don't see what the big deal is of them retiring Maddux too. They're already retiring #31 for Jenkins. If Maddux had the same number, then including Maddux makes sense to me.

This is pretty much what I think on the "issue". Any team can retire any number for any reason. If the Cubs wanted to retire the number 20 for Felix Pie, they could do it as long as they could live with the indignity of it.

thomas35forever
03-20-2009, 12:25 PM
As a HOFer, Jenkins should've had his number retired long ago. I don't agree with them retiring Maddux's number though. He didn't even spend ten years with the club (before you say Jordan, that was a rare exception), and as one poster pointed out, most of his success came with Atlanta. Also, God help us if he enters Cooperstown wearing a Flubbies hat.

soxinem1
03-20-2009, 12:39 PM
With Fergie, it was long overdue anyway.

When the White Sox were going to pick him in 1982 from the FA Compensation Pool due to Steve Kemp signing with the NYY, I really hoped he would be a White Sox. I always liked Fergie, even though he was playing for the bad guys.

Plus, Fergie had a real solid season with a crappy cub team in 1982, but Dallas Green whined to Roland Hemond and they left him be.

Maddux had three solid seasons his first go-round with them, and was mediocre when he came back.

This is actually the equivalent of retiring LaMarr Hoyt's number. Makes no sense.

But it took them about 23 years to retire Santo's number, so who knows what they are thinking?

Eddo144
03-20-2009, 12:41 PM
Who cares? He's a Hof, he started with the Cubs. Although his period with the Cubs is not what people think of when they think of Maddux, I think it's fine if the organization wants to retire his number. The Braves can always retire his number too if they want. I'll be honest, I'm not one who's too clear about all the rules but can't the Braves also retire 31 if they wanted too?
There are no rules for retiring numbers. The White Sox could retire #55 for Mickey Mouse and it would be accepted. They also could retire #7 for Mickey Mantle and no one could stop them.

Posnanski covers every retired number here: http://joeposnanski.com/JoeBlog/2008/04/23/way-more-than-you-wanted-on-retired-numbers/.

Eddo144
03-20-2009, 12:45 PM
I don't get why Jenkins is such a no-brainer while Maddux is getting debated based on years spent with the Cubs.

Jenkins spent 9 full seasons with the Cubs. Maddux spent 8.5.

soxinem1
03-20-2009, 12:50 PM
I don't get why Jenkins is such a no-brainer while Maddux is getting debated based on years spent with the Cubs.

Jenkins spent 9 full seasons with the Cubs. Maddux spent 8.5.

Because Fergie had some eye-popping numbers pitching for them. Maddux had about three solid seasons.

Floyd Bannister had a couple of solid seasons in his five years here. Should we retire his number(s)?

SOXPHILE
03-20-2009, 01:09 PM
Agreed. I was actually having an argument with my friend the other day about this. He for some reason thought Maddux would go in with a Cubs hat.

Sounds like the he has the same amount of brain cells as some of the local sportswriters who, when Maddux came back to the Cubs in 2004, opined that it was good, becaus he really is "a Cub at heart". Whatever the **** that's supposed to mean. Just show your friend a couple of facts:

-Of his 355 career wins, 133 came with the Cubs, and 194 came with the Braves.

-1 post season appearance with the Cubs, 10 with the Braves. 0 victories as a Cub, 10 with the Braves.

-0 World Series apearances with the Cubs, 3 with the Braves, including a World Series Championship.

Just to name a few. Anybody who thinks he'll be wearing a Cubs and not a Braves hat into the HOF is a baseball idiot.

Eddo144
03-20-2009, 02:40 PM
Because Fergie had some eye-popping numbers pitching for them. Maddux had about three solid seasons.

Floyd Bannister had a couple of solid seasons in his five years here. Should we retire his number(s)?
Maddux did win a Cy Young for the Cubs.

I don't see why people have a problem with this. The Cubs organization and Cub fans have great admiration for Maddux, in the same way the Sox organization and Sox fans have great admiration for Carlton Fisk, even though his most memorable years (and home run) came in Boston. And, like Fisk with the Red Sox, Maddux should wear a Braves hat on his Hal of Fame plaque. Why should it matter that the Cubs choose to honor him in this manner?

Bannister is irrelevant; like you say, he only had five years with the Sox. And he's nowhere near a future Hall of Famer, like Maddux is.

Foulke You
03-20-2009, 02:55 PM
Maddux did win a Cy Young for the Cubs.

I don't see why people have a problem with this. The Cubs organization and Cub fans have great admiration for Maddux, in the same way the Sox organization and Sox fans have great admiration for Carlton Fisk, even though his most memorable years (and home run) came in Boston. And, like Fisk with the Red Sox, Maddux should wear a Braves hat on his Hal of Fame plaque. Why should it matter that the Cubs choose to honor him in this manner?

Bannister is irrelevant; like you say, he only had five years with the Sox. And he's nowhere near a future Hall of Famer, like Maddux is.
I realize I'm splitting hairs here but I don't really agree with your Fisk analogy. Fisk played 13 seasons with the White Sox and had some really great years for us too. He played 11 seasons with Boston so he actually played two more years for the White Sox. Fisk made himself into a HOFer wearing both colored Sox. Maddux was an up and coming young pitcher with the Cubs fresh off a Cy Young but he became a HOFer with the Braves. It's fine that they want to admire him for his career but I'm in disagreement with them on splitting the honor with Fergie Jenkins when it is clear, when it comes to CUBS pitchers wearing #31, that honor belongs to Fergie alone. If you want to honor Maddux, have a "Greg Maddux Night" at Wrigley and have him sing the 7th inning stretch and give away posters at the gate but leave retiring #31 to the guy who deserves it more for that team.

TDog
03-20-2009, 03:38 PM
There are no rules for retiring numbers. The White Sox could retire #55 for Mickey Mouse and it would be accepted. They also could retire #7 for Mickey Mantle and no one could stop them.

Posnanski covers every retired number here: http://joeposnanski.com/JoeBlog/2008/04/23/way-more-than-you-wanted-on-retired-numbers/.

The Indians, for example, apparently retired number 455. I thought the Angels retired number 26 for Gene Autry, but the link says it is a saddle they retired.

The link also says equates Minnie Minoso's retired number to Jimmy Reese's No. 50 with the Angels -- that is, emotional, not in recognition of greatness or importance. Such words could inspire a hijack. But back to my point.

When the Yankees retired No. 8, they recognized both Bill Dickey and Yogi Berra, who both wore the number. When the White Sox retired Nos. 9 and 11, they didn't mention that Bee Bee Richard wore both numbers before they were retired. Harold Baines is deserving of having his number retired, and more, of course. Some of us remember that Walt "No-Neck" Williams wore No. 3, but the 3 on the wall is Harold's 3.

The Cubs can do what they want to do. There is no question that Jenkins was a bigger pitching force for the the Cubs than Maddux was. There is no question that Maddux deserves the honor of having his number retired by the Braves. Of course, the Red Sox didn't retire Luis Aparicio's number 11. Neither did Baltimore. I doubt that the A's will retire Frank Thomas' number, unless Jason Giambi decides to wear it. But they wouldn't mention Thomas if he did.

In any case, it's nothing to get excited about. Cubs will be Cubs. It stimulates some thought, but it's not really my concern.

Eddo144
03-20-2009, 03:58 PM
The link also says equates Minnie Minoso's retired number to Jimmy Reese's No. 50 with the Angels -- that is, emotional, not in recognition of greatness or importance.
I thought that too, though I think Posnanski was pretty consistent in that "greatness" meant Hall of Fame, whereas Minoso's "emotional" is probably because he's been such an ambassador for the White Sox organization over the past few decades.

eriqjaffe
03-20-2009, 04:20 PM
Minoso's "emotional" is probably because he's been such an ambassador for the White Sox organization over the past few decades.So when do we retire #14 in honor of Moose Skowron?

SOXPHILE
03-20-2009, 04:42 PM
So when do we retire #14 in honor of Moose Skowron?


What about #10 for Ron Santo ?

Billy Ashley
03-20-2009, 05:10 PM
Am I a jerk for thinking they should not retire either?

Both were amazing, both had great careers with the cubs but:

1: Maddux was at his best with Atlanta

2: Jenkins played half his career outside of Chicago.

TDog
03-20-2009, 06:07 PM
Am I a jerk for thinking they should not retire either?

Both were amazing, both had great careers with the cubs but:

1: Maddux was at his best with Atlanta

2: Jenkins played half his career outside of Chicago.

Jenkins is in the Hall of Fame because of the pitcher he was with the Cubs, not the pitcher he was with the Rangers. Maddux will be in the Hall of Fame for the pitcher he was with the Braves, not the pitcher he was with the Cubs.

But when you get right down to it, there is probably too much number-retiring going on anyway.

Nellie_Fox
03-20-2009, 11:59 PM
But when you get right down to it, there is probably too much number-retiring going on anyway.And there you have it.

Smokey Burg
03-21-2009, 03:17 PM
Announcing that they will retire the number for Fergie and Maddux resolves the cubs from admitting that they were too (take your pick) a) stupid, b) callous, c) arrogant, or d) all of the above, to retire the number for Fergie before they gave it to Maddux. IMHO, of course.

cub killer
03-23-2009, 03:35 AM
Another idiotic move by an idiotic organization. Their big mistake was leaving #31 available after jenkins left the team. I see foresight isn't a skill the cubs have. It shoulda been a no-brainer to leave #31 unavailable, as #35 now is for us.

So now a generation passes after jenkins leaves, and now the cub organization decides to honor him. Along with a Brave to ride the coattails. Pretty stupid to wait this long and to include maddux.

Jenkins should be insulted. He did enough to warrant an earlier number retirement. Wasn't sandberg's number retired right after he was inducted into the HOF? Why not jenkins? So now, after all these years, the flubs realize that jenkins' number should be retired. But, knowing how stupid their fanbase is, know there will be a backlash if maddux's name isn't mentioned as well. So they give in to the stupidity of their fans by throwing maddux, a Brave, into the mix with jenkins, who deserves #31 to be retired ONLY for him.


And of course there are posters here saying "the cubs can do what they want". Yeah, they can and they do, it doesn't mean that their moves aren't stupid.

flub fans are so sad. They deify maddux for that 1 measly 1989 division title. Whereinwhich they got smashed by the Giants in the NLCS. That's it. And that's why the cub fans would whine to no end if maddux wouldnt be thrown in along with jenkins. I could totally imagine what the backlash woulda been like like: "1989! 1992 Cy Young!" Black Jack has 1993 and the 1993 Cy Young. Would we be crying for him in the same situation? NO.

Daley should just let wriglyvil secede and become its own city. Their team and fans do not deserve to wear "Chicago" on their chests.

whitesox901
03-23-2009, 03:58 AM
Another idiotic move by an idiotic organization. Their big mistake was leaving #31 available after jenkins left the team. I see foresight isn't a skill the cubs have. It shoulda been a no-brainer to leave #31 unavailable, as #35 now is for us.

So now a generation passes after jenkins leaves, and now the cub organization decides to honor him. Along with a Brave to ride the coattails. Pretty stupid to wait this long and to include maddux.

Jenkins should be insulted. He did enough to warrant an earlier number retirement. Wasn't sandberg's number retired right after he was inducted into the HOF? Why not jenkins? So now, after all these years, the flubs realize that jenkins' number should be retired. But, knowing how stupid their fanbase is, know there will be a backlash if maddux's name isn't mentioned as well. So they give in to the stupidity of their fans by throwing maddux, a Brave, into the mix with jenkins, who deserves #31 to be retired ONLY for him.


And of course there are posters here saying "the cubs can do what they want". Yeah, they can and they do, it doesn't mean that their moves aren't stupid.

flub fans are so sad. They deify maddux for that 1 measly 1989 division title. Whereinwhich they got smashed by the Giants in the NLCS. That's it. And that's why the cub fans would whine to no end if maddux wouldnt be thrown in along with jenkins. I could totally imagine what the backlash woulda been like like: "1989! 1992 Cy Young!" Black Jack has 1993 and the 1993 Cy Young. Would we be crying for him in the same situation? NO.

Daley should just let wriglyvil secede and become its own city. Their team and fans do not deserve to wear "Chicago" on their chests.

post of the week

Hitmen77
03-23-2009, 07:57 AM
Another idiotic move by an idiotic organization. Their big mistake was leaving #31 available after jenkins left the team. I see foresight isn't a skill the cubs have. It shoulda been a no-brainer to leave #31 unavailable, as #35 now is for us.

So now a generation passes after jenkins leaves, and now the cub organization decides to honor him. Along with a Brave to ride the coattails. Pretty stupid to wait this long and to include maddux.

Jenkins should be insulted. He did enough to warrant an earlier number retirement. Wasn't sandberg's number retired right after he was inducted into the HOF? Why not jenkins? So now, after all these years, the flubs realize that jenkins' number should be retired. But, knowing how stupid their fanbase is, know there will be a backlash if maddux's name isn't mentioned as well. So they give in to the stupidity of their fans by throwing maddux, a Brave, into the mix with jenkins, who deserves #31 to be retired ONLY for him.


And of course there are posters here saying "the cubs can do what they want". Yeah, they can and they do, it doesn't mean that their moves aren't stupid.

flub fans are so sad. They deify maddux for that 1 measly 1989 division title. Whereinwhich they got smashed by the Giants in the NLCS. That's it. And that's why the cub fans would whine to no end if maddux wouldnt be thrown in along with jenkins. I could totally imagine what the backlash woulda been like like: "1989! 1992 Cy Young!" Black Jack has 1993 and the 1993 Cy Young. Would we be crying for him in the same situation? NO.

Daley should just let wriglyvil secede and become its own city. Their team and fans do not deserve to wear "Chicago" on their chests.

Don't forget, this is an organization that put up a statue for their announcer (who was with the Cubs for only 15 years) before they honored any player with a statue.

TornLabrum
03-23-2009, 08:21 AM
Don't forget, this is an organization that put up a statue for their announcer (who was with the Cubs for only 15 years) before they honored any player with a statue.

And before they honored the announcer who preceded him who had been doing their games on TV since 1948 (who got a "Hey! Hey!" on the foul pole). Classy....

dickallen15
03-23-2009, 09:23 AM
Another idiotic move by an idiotic organization. Their big mistake was leaving #31 available after jenkins left the team. I see foresight isn't a skill the cubs have. It shoulda been a no-brainer to leave #31 unavailable, as #35 now is for us.

So now a generation passes after jenkins leaves, and now the cub organization decides to honor him. Along with a Brave to ride the coattails. Pretty stupid to wait this long and to include maddux.

Jenkins should be insulted. He did enough to warrant an earlier number retirement. Wasn't sandberg's number retired right after he was inducted into the HOF? Why not jenkins? So now, after all these years, the flubs realize that jenkins' number should be retired. But, knowing how stupid their fanbase is, know there will be a backlash if maddux's name isn't mentioned as well. So they give in to the stupidity of their fans by throwing maddux, a Brave, into the mix with jenkins, who deserves #31 to be retired ONLY for him.


And of course there are posters here saying "the cubs can do what they want". Yeah, they can and they do, it doesn't mean that their moves aren't stupid.

flub fans are so sad. They deify maddux for that 1 measly 1989 division title. Whereinwhich they got smashed by the Giants in the NLCS. That's it. And that's why the cub fans would whine to no end if maddux wouldnt be thrown in along with jenkins. I could totally imagine what the backlash woulda been like like: "1989! 1992 Cy Young!" Black Jack has 1993 and the 1993 Cy Young. Would we be crying for him in the same situation? NO.

Daley should just let wriglyvil secede and become its own city. Their team and fans do not deserve to wear "Chicago" on their chests.

How wrong was it for the Sox to retire Harold Baines' 3 ? Maddux won a Cy Young and 133 games for the Cubs. That's more than Mark Buerhle He also is a HOFer, perhaps the greatest pitcher of his generation. The number shouldn't have been available for him to wear, but it should be retired with Jenkins' and Maddux's names. If he were a White Sox and the same thing happened, there would be no one up in arms over this. Carlton Fisk hit .257 with the White Sox, why aren't people complaining his number was retired? Maddux was probably the best pitcher of the past 20 years and he was drafted and developed by the Cubs. He won a lot of games for them. He deserves the honor.

jdm2662
03-23-2009, 09:23 AM
And before they honored the announcer who preceded him who had been doing their games on TV since 1948 (who got a "Hey! Hey!" on the foul pole). Classy....

You beat me to it. Jack Brickhouse deserved an honor long before Harry got his.

I don't really have a problem with the Cubs honoring Maddux, but Fergie's honor is coming 16 or so years too late.

TommyJohn
03-23-2009, 10:21 AM
How wrong was it for the Sox to retire Harold Baines' 3 ? Maddux won a Cy Young and 133 games for the Cubs. That's more than Mark Buerhle He also is a HOFer, perhaps the greatest pitcher of his generation. The number shouldn't have been available for him to wear, but it should be retired with Jenkins' and Maddux's names. If he were a White Sox and the same thing happened, there would be no one up in arms over this. Carlton Fisk hit .257 with the White Sox, why aren't people complaining his number was retired? Maddux was probably the best pitcher of the past 20 years and he was drafted and developed by the Cubs. He won a lot of games for them. He deserves the honor.
I'm not so sure about that. There are people here who debated whether Baines deserved to have his number retired, get a statue and be in the HOF (I vote NO on all three, he wasn't THAT great) and I have confidence that WSIers would not be a like-minded mob approving of the decision if the situation with Maddux were reversed.

I think comparison with Fisk is faulty. He symbolized a lot to the franchise. The White Sox of the Veeck era were a laughingstock, the Fisk signing began to turn that around. Plus, he set records with the White Sox including most games caught and most home runs by a catcher.