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A. Cavatica
03-12-2009, 12:10 AM
Which current member of the roster has the most immovable contract?

Last year I'd have said Contreras, but things are looking up for him. I guess it's Konerko or Thome.

A mention of Juan Pierre in another thread made me ponder this question, since to acquire someone like Pierre we'd either have to get the other team to pay most of his salary or trade away someone with an equally bad contract. (I'm no fan of Pierre, but if he cost the team the same as Wise or Owens, he'd be an improvement.)

...
03-12-2009, 12:12 AM
Which current member of the roster has the most immovable contract?

Last year I'd have said Contreras, but things are looking up for him. I guess it's Konerko or Thome.

A mention of Juan Pierre in another thread made me ponder this question, since to acquire someone like Pierre we'd either have to get the other team to pay most of his salary or trade away someone with an equally bad contract. (I'm no fan of Pierre, but if he cost the team the same as Wise or Owens, he'd be an improvement.)

Dotel.

Billy Ashley
03-12-2009, 12:14 AM
Kenny Williams has done a great job avoiding bad contracts in general.

Really, it's between Konerko (who's a very good bounce back candidate btw) and AJP. Neither is a terrible contract though as like I said, Konerko is likely to rebound and is only signed up until 2010 and while I don't like AJP, he's an acceptable starting catcher.

Some of the BP contracts are way too long but have worked out thus far.

oeo
03-12-2009, 12:15 AM
Dotel.

How so? He had a pretty good year last year, it was a bit up and down, but overall it was good. It's only a two year deal, so he's off the hook after this year.

I'd say Linebrink is probably the worst, considering his age and the length of the contract. Hopefully he stays healthy, otherwise, it's going to go down as a terrible deal (although one I will still argue needed to be done). Konerko is up there, as well, along with MacDougal who has been a complete waste of money.

...
03-12-2009, 12:23 AM
How so? He had a pretty good year last year, it was a bit up and down, but overall it was good. It's only a two year deal, so he's off the hook after this year.

I'd say Linebrink is probably the worst, considering his age and the length of the contract. Hopefully he stays healthy, otherwise, it's going to go down as a terrible deal (although one I will still argue needed to be done). Konerko is up there, as well, along with MacDougal who has been a complete waste of money.

I had debated Linebrink. Dotel makes a ton on coin for what he doesn't do.

skobabe8
03-12-2009, 12:25 AM
Kenny Williams has done a great job avoiding bad contracts in general.

Really, it's between Konerko (who's a very good bounce back candidate btw) and AJP. Neither is a terrible contract though as like I said, Konerko is likely to rebound and is only signed up until 2010 and while I don't like AJP, he's an acceptable starting catcher.

Some of the BP contracts are way too long but have worked out thus far.

Acceptable?? Even people that don't like him give him more credit than THAT.

SOXfnNlansing
03-12-2009, 12:25 AM
Thome

kittle42
03-12-2009, 12:27 AM
MacDougal.

hi im skot
03-12-2009, 12:30 AM
Wciu.

BadBobbyJenks
03-12-2009, 12:30 AM
Wise.

WhiteSox5187
03-12-2009, 12:30 AM
MacDougal.
Agreed and it's not even close.

BadBobbyJenks
03-12-2009, 12:30 AM
Wciu.

THIS.:redneck

whitesox901
03-12-2009, 12:31 AM
when on TV id day Darren Jackson

but now I dunno who'd I'd say

doublem23
03-12-2009, 12:32 AM
I would still say it's probably Contreras. He's coming back from an Achilles tear in 6 months? I can't buy that.

DirtySox
03-12-2009, 12:37 AM
Either Linebrink or Mac.

kittle42
03-12-2009, 12:43 AM
I will go so far as to say anyone saying it isn't MacDougal is crazy.

Gavin
03-12-2009, 12:45 AM
MacDougal, yeah. Not even close.

But I'm not crazy about how much we're paying Thome to platoon DH.

doublem23
03-12-2009, 12:56 AM
MacDougal, yeah. Not even close.

But I'm not crazy about how much we're paying Thome to platoon DH.

149 games in a season is a platoon now?

tm1119
03-12-2009, 12:57 AM
I would still say it's probably Contreras. He's coming back from an Achilles tear in 6 months? I can't buy that.

Not to mention hes been pretty bad since the first half of 06. Hes old(and probably older than we think) and worn down. I may be alone here, but Im really not expecting much from him this year whether hes healthy or not.

Tragg
03-12-2009, 12:59 AM
Which current member of the roster has the most immovable contract?


MacDougal

Gavin
03-12-2009, 01:02 AM
149 games in a season is a platoon now?

Hmm, I guess I didn't do my research. I thought he was platooned because he did just awful against LHP but neither of those statements are true.

I still wish we had a better DH option against LHP, however, but he didn't do as bad as I thought he did. Pwnt=me

Billy Ashley
03-12-2009, 01:07 AM
Acceptable?? Even people that don't like him give him more credit than THAT.

meh perhaps I should have qualified that a bit-

He's an acceptable starting catcher on a contending team. That's not really an insult being that there are like 10 catchers in baseball who don't suck.

My issue with his contract is that he's likely to suck before it expires given his age and performance history... but again, any catcher who doesn't kill you at this point is better than league average somehow.

oeo
03-12-2009, 01:11 AM
I would still say it's probably Contreras. He's coming back from an Achilles tear in 6 months? I can't buy that.

Well the question is whether they're immovable. Some of the guys that are being named have deals that expire at the end of the year, which in some cases would be very attractive to some teams. Thome, Contreras, Dye, Dotel, etc. are all guys that if they're having pretty good years this year could be moved if the need is there for another team.

Then you have guys like Linebrink (3 years left), Konerko (2 years left), MacDougal (1 year left + an option/buyout)...those guys would be very difficult to move.

Contreras and MacDougal probably had the worst deals a couple years ago, but I don't think that's the case anymore. Bad contracts over the course of their tenure? Sure. However, right now with only a year remaining, they're not all that bad.

Frontman
03-12-2009, 01:37 AM
MacDougal. This kid sucks, and was a "hope Coop makes him better" project. When that didn't pan out, you might as well just burn the money in the outfield between a double header.....

TheCommander
03-12-2009, 03:39 AM
Southpaw

4 points
03-12-2009, 06:06 AM
MacDougal. This kid sucks, and was a "hope Coop makes him better" project. When that didn't pan out, you might as well just burn the money in the outfield between a double header.....

How about a " Macdougal bobblehead demolition night".:bandance:

white sox bill
03-12-2009, 07:33 AM
Sorry but MacDougal doesn't count....only big leaguers count

CashMan
03-12-2009, 09:36 AM
Sorry but MacDougal doesn't count....only big leaguers count


He has an MLB contract.

soxfan21
03-12-2009, 09:39 AM
No doubt about it, Macdougal.

asindc
03-12-2009, 09:41 AM
I would still say it's probably Contreras. He's coming back from an Achilles tear in 6 months? I can't buy that.

What don't you buy about it?

beasly213
03-12-2009, 09:54 AM
MacDougal fools.

oeo
03-12-2009, 09:59 AM
I will go so far as to say anyone saying it isn't MacDougal is crazy.

MacDougal doesn't have the worst contract right now. There's a difference between what has been a bad contract, and what is currently our worst. It has been a terrible contract, but we currently have worse ones considering MacDougal will be off the books.

I'd say anyone that doesn't say Linebrink is crazy. We're talking immovable deals, and that's probably the biggest one on the books. MacDougal may not be movable, but at least his contract will be up after this year, not to mention he will only be making about half of what Linebrink is. 3 years and ~$14 million left for a 32-year-old reliever is not going anywhere.

esbrechtel
03-12-2009, 10:03 AM
Wciu.


:kneeslap:

Thome's contract wasn't negotiated by Williams and he is still very productive...

Konerko was coming off a career year when he signed his deal...I look for him to have a bounce back year...

MacDougal on the other hand...has had 1/2 a good season with us and is getting paid some big league $...

white sox bill
03-12-2009, 10:08 AM
He has an MLB contract.

Yea and thats a shame (or should I say sham)
I hope Macdougs is at least buying some of the guys on the Knights team a few drinks when they go out. I'm sure he can afford it.

jabrch
03-12-2009, 11:38 AM
I would still say it's probably Contreras. He's coming back from an Achilles tear in 6 months? I can't buy that.


But his contract isn't terrible because it expires after this year. When I think of a bad contract, I think of a long term commitment to a guy who sucks - or worse yet - can't stay on the field.

We don't have anything closely resembling that. Worst contract we have is PK in my eyes - but even that is not terrible.

Williams caution and unwillingness to give long term deals at big $, while it hurts us sometimes, may be the best thing in this market. He should have enough salary flexibility to help the club if a change exists this year.

Jerome
03-12-2009, 11:48 AM
US Cellular

russ99
03-12-2009, 11:57 AM
Linebrink and Dotel are paid the going rate for relievers of their overall talent. While it seems too much, they're pretty solid setup guys, so I have no complaint.

For me, it's Konerko last year. But I'll concede he was injured most last year and give him a chance to turn it around this year.

So for this year it's Thome, since the Phils aren't kicking in any more cash and the Sox are responsible for the full $13M. I expect him to have a pretty good season, but I don't think it's worth that much.

Chez
03-12-2009, 12:06 PM
1. MacDougal
2. MacDougal
3. MacDougal
4. MacDougal
5. Wise

oeo
03-12-2009, 12:11 PM
Linebrink and Dotel are paid the going rate for relievers of their overall talent. While it seems too much, they're pretty solid setup guys, so I have no complaint.

It seems like most people are taking into account money more than length of contract, when it should be the other way around. My big beef with Linebrink's contract is that it still has three years left on it.

And will somebody please explain to me how MacDougal has our worst current contract? Not a contract in which performance has not lived up to it, which is what MacDougal's deal is now. Two years ago, it was probably our second worst after Contreras...now, not so much because there's one year left on it. I mentioned him in my first post, but I thought he was making more than he actually is.

Craig Grebeck
03-12-2009, 01:05 PM
Linebrink is the only remotely passable answer to this question. What a god damn terrible deal that was.

102605
03-12-2009, 01:06 PM
Southpaw


Awwwww...

MISoxfan
03-12-2009, 01:25 PM
We don't really have any major contract issues. Compared to most of the league we're looking pretty good in that department.

Britt Burns
03-12-2009, 02:12 PM
MacDougal, jsut because any contract with him is almost by definiton bad.

Thome25
03-12-2009, 02:25 PM
McDougal......and as a sidenote how could ANYONE say that AJP is only an acceptable catcher and his contract is bad? AJP's contract is a bargain for a player of his caliber.

whitesox901
03-12-2009, 02:30 PM
Southpaw

lies!

Foulke You
03-12-2009, 02:30 PM
Macdougal is the worst contract. Linebrink and Dotel will make the MLB roster and help the team win games in 2009. Macdougal was given the contract extension after 2006 and laid a giant turd in 2007 appearing in 54 games and posting a robust 6.80 E.R.A. He then toiled for Charlotte most of last year and likely again this year. This is millions of dollars tied up in a player that will be wearing a Knights hat most of the year.

If we are talking about a contract on the Sox that absolutely cannot be moved, it is definitely Macdougal. No team would take that contract, ever. If a rich big market team like the Yankees were desperate for a late inning reliever down the stretch drive, they would absolutely take on Linebrink or Dotel's contract. However, they would laugh out loud of Kenny said "How about you take Mike MacDougal?".:cool:

southwstchi4life
03-12-2009, 02:33 PM
I don't understand how anybody can say AJ has a bad contract. In my opinion he is one of our best deals between his consistency of playing just about everyday to his bat.

Billy Ashley
03-12-2009, 02:36 PM
McDougal......and as a sidenote how could ANYONE say that AJP is only an acceptable catcher and his contract is bad? AJP's contract is a bargain for a player of his caliber.

My issue isn't with how he's played, he's been an average catcher. That's worth a decent bit all by itself.

But let's not sugar coat it, he's not a good hitter- the past 4 years he's posted OPS+ of 88, 83, 94, 90. Additionally, most of his value comes from his slugging percentage and OPS (and OPS+) rewards slugging percentage way too much. In his four years with the White Sox his OBP has topped .313 once. He creates a fair share of outs.

That said, he's been very durable and doesn't kill you offensively. Like I said before, given the dearth of catchers in the majors- he's a viable option for a contending team (how that's an insult, I don't know).

The issue is that he's signed for the next two years at a little more than 6 million and will be 32 this year. It's not unlikely that he's going to decline.

Last season his OBP trailed JAson Varitek, Ivan Rodriquez, Gerald Laird, Victor Martinez, Greg Zaun, Kurt Suzuki, Kelly Shoppach, Navarro, Mike Napoli, and Joe Mauer.

Is he incredibly durable, yes- and again that comes at a fair bit of value, but it's not outrageous to suggest that his contract could look bad next year or the year after.

Thome25
03-12-2009, 02:53 PM
My issue isn't with how he's played, he's been an average catcher. That's worth a decent bit all by itself.

But let's not sugar coat it, he's not a good hitter- the past 4 years he's posted OPS+ of 88, 83, 94, 90. Additionally, most of his value comes from his slugging percentage and OPS (and OPS+) rewards slugging percentage way too much. In his four years with the White Sox his OBP has topped .313 once. He creates a fair share of outs.

That said, he's been very durable and doesn't kill you offensively. Like I said before, given the dearth of catchers in the majors- he's a viable option for a contending team (how that's an insult, I don't know).

The issue is that he's signed for the next two years at a little more than 6 million and will be 32 this year. It's not unlikely that he's going to decline.

Last season his OBP trailed JAson Varitek, Ivan Rodriquez, Gerald Laird, Victor Martinez, Greg Zaun, Kurt Suzuki, Kelly Shoppach, Navarro, Mike Napoli, and Joe Mauer.

Is he incredibly durable, yes- and again that comes at a fair bit of value, but it's not outrageous to suggest that his contract could look bad next year or the year after.

How do you argue with a stat-head that players offer more to their teams than numbers and stats show? AJ is a leader on this team both inside and outside the clubhouse. The offensive numbers he puts up are more than just acceptable for a catcher.

The intangibles that he brings to the Chicago White Sox that you can't measure with SABRmetrics or any other metrics for that matter, more than justify his contract.

EndemicSox
03-12-2009, 02:53 PM
Nothing terrible, Williams has done a good job in this department. Based on recent production, Konerko and MacDougal are getting a few bucks more than they deserve, but more power to them!

Lets not start down this road again, AJ doesn't provide much with the bat, but compared to other catcher's, he is solid, and by most accounts he handles the staff well. Is he a $6 million dollar per year hitter? Probably not, but his agent knows how much similar catchers are paid, and I'm sure his salary is nothing out of the ordinary.

Billy Ashley
03-12-2009, 03:49 PM
Nothing terrible, Williams has done a good job in this department. Based on recent production, Konerko and MacDougal are getting a few bucks more than they deserve, but more power to them!

Lets not start down this road again, AJ doesn't provide much with the bat, but compared to other catcher's, he is solid, and by most accounts he handles the staff well. Is he a $6 million dollar per year hitter? Probably not, but his agent knows how much similar catchers are paid, and I'm sure his salary is nothing out of the ordinary.

You're correct, aside from Linebrink- they're aren't any deals that are likely to become very bad (and thus far, Linebrink has produced). Williams has avoided bad deals better than most in baseball.

AJ is a decent catcher, and he's very durable- thus far he hasn't been a hindrance. I'd like to clarify here that I'm just stating that given his lack luster offense, there is a bit of risk over the next two years of his contract... nothing more.

hi im skot
03-12-2009, 04:06 PM
Southpaw

http://i79.photobucket.com/albums/j146/sschaaf/Picture1.jpg

"T pities the fool who believes such jibber-jabber!"

HomeFish
03-12-2009, 04:27 PM
Thome without a doubt. AJ Pierzynski is the best catcher we've had in ages, you're not going to see me complaining about him anytime soon.

Noneck
03-12-2009, 04:31 PM
The the longer the term the more uncertainty. So in that case, Linebrink and Buehrle. I guess then I have to put Viciedo and Ramirez in this pot also but the money lost would be quite a bit less.

Randar68
03-12-2009, 04:44 PM
Thome

The Phillies paid half his salary for IIRC the duration of the deal (except perhaps the option season?). Overall contract was not that bad.

Dotel and MacDougal are at the top... worthless.

Konerko makes a lot of coin for someone who is pretty limited.

the gooch
03-12-2009, 04:48 PM
I will go on the crazy end here not to say it is the worst contract, but to try and gauge what the WSI people here think - and then I will run away from the criticism.

Dayan Viciedo- 4 years, $11 Million. Most likely won't see the major league roster this year. If we are lucky, he will keep the weight down and stay in shape enough to play 3B, though he is projected by many to be 1B/DH. If we are lucky, he will be ready in 2010 and give us three years, then become a free agent. If we are lucky, he will produce as a 21 year-old rookie.

Few people doubt that he will eventually hit well at the major league level.
The more I look at this contract though, the more I think it will happen after he moves on to another team. I wish we had gotten a fifth year, or committed less than multiple-first-rounder money for half the service time a draft pick gives a team.

Don't get me wrong, I wish him success and I like the Cuban Pimp. At the time of the signing I liked it. But then the market tanked and I wonder if we may regret it.

Just want to know what other people think of the contract. Go ahead, let me have it.

oeo
03-12-2009, 04:52 PM
The Phillies paid half his salary for IIRC the duration of the deal (except perhaps the option season?). Overall contract was not that bad.

Dotel and MacDougal are at the top... worthless.

Konerko makes a lot of coin for someone who is pretty limited.

Huh? :scratch:

I know the guy had his ups and downs last year, but overreact much?

asindc
03-12-2009, 04:55 PM
The the longer the term the more uncertainty. So in that case, Linebrink and Buehrle. I guess then I have to put Viciedo and Ramirez in this pot also but the money lost would be quite a bit less.

Buehrle's contract, much like Konerko's, is significantly about services already rendered. The team knew that, heck, even all but the most casual of Sox fans knew that. For that reason, I can't put him or Paulie in this category.

MacDougal wins the prize here. As has been noted already, he is not even giving MLB-level performance but damn sure is getting MLB-level money. The fact that his is the Sox' worse contract says a lot of good about the front office. After all, we could be paying Julio Lugo Michael Young-type money, or Dontrelle Willis Erwin Santana-type money.

UofCSoxFan
03-12-2009, 05:18 PM
For those saying Thome...you do realize we don't win the division without him last year, right?

Let's actually wait for his production to significantly drop before we label him our worse contract. Yes he's overpaid, but he's still a pretty damn good hitter.

Some of the other suggestions are laughable too...Wise makes $550,000 and is signed to a one year deal. Even if he is the worst player of all time (he's not), that will never be the worst contract on your team.

MacDougal at 2 mil per is bad, but again that's not that much money in the grand scheme of baseball. Still, paying that much for an aging, crappy reliever destined to be in the minors is not good.

Jose at about 10 mil my vote. But if he returns healthy I may reconsider since the market for pitching is simply inflated.

Bottom line, Sox have some amazingly good contracts right now that off set some of the higher ones that will be coming off the books soon. I mean TCQ at $550,000, Danks and Floyd and $520,000 each, Thorton at $1.325 million, Alexei at $1.1 million....wow.

downstairs
03-12-2009, 05:27 PM
We're still paying Julio Cruz, right? I'd say that one there.

PaleHoser
03-12-2009, 05:31 PM
Robert Meiklejohn MacDougal (http://chicago.whitesox.mlb.com/team/player.jsp?player_id=213680), hands-down. $3M guaranteed (http://chicago.whitesox.mlb.com/news/article.jsp?ymd=20061208&content_id=1758448&vkey=news_cws&fext=.jsp&c_id=cws) to a guy who isn't even on the 40 man roster.

I need to hire his agent.

Jerome
03-12-2009, 05:39 PM
""

I LOVE YOUR SIG!!!!!! The drawing of the spider to pay the bills :)

chisox12
03-12-2009, 05:42 PM
MacDougal's contract is just awful.

Not too crazy about Linebrink's contract either. 3 more years and he alerady broke down in year 1 of the contract. Hopefully he can bounce back and stay healthy this season. We really suffered when him and Jenks went down last year.

Randar68
03-12-2009, 05:47 PM
Huh? :scratch:

I know the guy had his ups and downs last year, but overreact much?

Dotel is one of the most Jekyl & Hyde relievers in all of baseball. He is like Damaso Marte without the anti-depressants. How can anyone have confidence in a guy that will come in and be untouchable or conversely walk the bases loaded before having to be taken out?

Maybe the numbers don't totally bear it out, but IMO he is one of the most frustrating pitchers to watch come in the game in all of baseball. I literally turn off the TV if he comes in during a close game or tight situation.

oeo
03-12-2009, 08:49 PM
Dotel is one of the most Jekyl & Hyde relievers in all of baseball. He is like Damaso Marte without the anti-depressants. How can anyone have confidence in a guy that will come in and be untouchable or conversely walk the bases loaded before having to be taken out?

This is considered worthless? If Dotel is worthless, I'll take 2-3 more worthless pitchers this year.

DumpJerry
03-12-2009, 08:59 PM
:jaime
What is this talk of bad contracts? There is no such thing! Pure fiction, I tell ya!

JB98
03-12-2009, 09:17 PM
I don't know how the answer to this question can be anyone but MacDougal.

People who answered Thome are full of beans. Sure, he's overpaid, but at least he's still a run-producer.

Craig Grebeck
03-12-2009, 09:29 PM
I don't know how the answer to this question can be anyone but MacDougal.

People who answered Thome are full of beans. Sure, he's overpaid, but at least he's still a run-producer.
Linebrink.

JB98
03-12-2009, 09:34 PM
Linebrink.

You're saying that based upon predictions of poor performance in the future. I don't think that's fair.

DumpJerry
03-12-2009, 09:36 PM
Two words:

1. Diminished
2. Skills

Bucky F. Dent
03-12-2009, 10:42 PM
MacDougal Stinks!
Close the thread!

Craig Grebeck
03-12-2009, 11:12 PM
You're saying that based upon predictions of poor performance in the future. I don't think that's fair.
We gave him no-trade protection. I don't think that's sane in any universe.

Tragg
03-13-2009, 12:11 AM
Dotel is one of the most Jekyl & Hyde relievers in all of baseball.
Been that way his entire career.

Tragg
03-13-2009, 12:15 AM
You're correct, aside from Linebrink- they're aren't any deals that are likely to become very bad (and thus far, Linebrink has produced). Williams has avoided bad deals better than most in baseball.
.
MacDougal
We're paying 2mill a year for a pitcher in AAA. Terrible deal.
BTW - Pecota gives him a positive VORP for his fine work in 2008 - all those ks from that terribly sophisticated program. Right

oeo
03-13-2009, 12:18 AM
You're saying that based upon predictions of poor performance in the future. I don't think that's fair.

Why not? You usually judge a contract based on the amount of money and the length. Linebrink isn't getting any younger and is under contract for three more years and some pretty good dough...that's not a good deal.

Once again, MacDougal's contract was a bad one, but it's off the books after this year, so it's definitely not the worst right now.

MtGrnwdSoxFan
03-13-2009, 01:43 AM
Why not? You usually judge a contract based on the amount of money and the length. Linebrink isn't getting any younger and is under contract for three more years and some pretty good dough...that's not a good deal.

I agree that it's not the greatest deal from the Sox' standpoint. However, looking at the black hole where the 2007 White Sox' bullpen should have been, I think that that deal was a necessary evil. Outside of Jenks, the 2007 BP was beyond putrid.

I can imagine not too many relievers would have been eager to shun deals with better clubs in order to jump on board our plywood boat upon a small fecal body of water without proper means of propulsion unless we gave them an eye-popping number of reasons to do so, preceded with a "$" sign.

Once again, MacDougal's contract was a bad one, but it's off the books after this year, so it's definitely not the worst right now.

As far as production for the dollar, MacDougal's contract is the worst on the Sox. Linebrink may not have justified every cent he made last year, but he was far from terrible. MacDougal provides absolutely nothing to the Sox, and gets paid a hefty sum for it.

russ99
03-13-2009, 11:04 AM
For those saying Thome...you do realize we don't win the division without him last year, right?

Let's actually wait for his production to significantly drop before we label him our worse contract. Yes he's overpaid, but he's still a pretty damn good hitter.

Some of the other suggestions are laughable too...Wise makes $550,000 and is signed to a one year deal. Even if he is the worst player of all time (he's not), that will never be the worst contract on your team.

MacDougal at 2 mil per is bad, but again that's not that much money in the grand scheme of baseball. Still, paying that much for an aging, crappy reliever destined to be in the minors is not good.

Jose at about 10 mil my vote. But if he returns healthy I may reconsider since the market for pitching is simply inflated.

Bottom line, Sox have some amazingly good contracts right now that off set some of the higher ones that will be coming off the books soon. I mean TCQ at $550,000, Danks and Floyd and $520,000 each, Thorton at $1.325 million, Alexei at $1.1 million....wow.

Well, let's say Thome's overall production last year (which did drop, other than HR's) at $7M with the Phillies eating half the contract was pretty darn good.

But Thome another year older, with recurring back issues and skills slightly further diminished - with the Sox on the hook to pay the full $13M this year's - that's not as good.

oeo
03-13-2009, 11:11 AM
I agree that it's not the greatest deal from the Sox' standpoint. However, looking at the black hole where the 2007 White Sox' bullpen should have been, I think that that deal was a necessary evil. Outside of Jenks, the 2007 BP was beyond putrid.

I agree, and have already said as much in this thread. That said, it doesn't make it a good contract. In fact, it's a terrible deal for a reliever. People are talking about MacDougal's deal and how bad it has been, but Linebrink's could end up much worse considering he's getting a lot more than MacDougal did.


As far as production for the dollar, MacDougal's contract is the worst on the Sox. Linebrink may not have justified every cent he made last year, but he was far from terrible. MacDougal provides absolutely nothing to the Sox, and gets paid a hefty sum for it.Yet MacDougal's contract expires, and we still have two years left with Linebrink at the end of the year. I'm looking more into what is going to hurt us in the long run rather than in the short run, while it seems like most of you are doing the opposite, and basing your opinion on what MacDougal has not done to this point. That fact makes it a bad contract, but not the worst we have today.

Trav
03-13-2009, 11:19 AM
Konerko makes an awful lot of money for a corner infielder that rarely hits for an entire season at a time.

Whitesox029
03-13-2009, 11:32 AM
Brian Campbell.

Oh wait...ha, you mean the Sox, don't you?

I'm going to go with Linebrink, since we gave him I think a 4-year deal, and I've never seen a non-closer reliever have that many quality seasons in a row, at least not with the White Sox.

jabrch
03-13-2009, 11:35 AM
If you have to choose between the options, the worst I see is Linebrink. But we wouldn't have said that before he got hurt last year. So I'm not drawing a conclusion on Linebrink until I see a bit more. If healthy, and pitching like he did most of the first half, he's not a bad contract. To compound it, Line has no trade protection. That's not a good thing.

MacDougal is gone after this year. The contract carries no long term liability. It's bad this year - for sure - but assuming the discussion is looking at the deals from today's vantage point, it isn't terrible.

PK has a few years left. Is on the wrong side of 30, and has started to show some decay. I'm hoping he bounces back healthy this year. Even if he doesn't, he only has 1 year and 12mm after this. That's not TERRIBLE.

I know the question was who is our worst...fortunately, we don't have one of those that is clearly a MLB-Worst type deal. Management's restrain has paid off in this area.

Whitesox029
03-13-2009, 11:43 AM
I know the question was who is our worst...fortunately, we don't have one of those that is clearly a MLB-Worst type deal. Management's restrain has paid off in this area.
*cough*Fukudome*cough*

voodoochile
03-13-2009, 11:45 AM
I know the question was who is our worst...fortunately, we don't have one of those that is clearly a MLB-Worst type deal. Management's restrain has paid off in this area.

I completely agree. If the worst contract we have is a stud setup man who is signed for 3 more years at a total cost of ~$15M or an aging DH who might hit 35 HR this year and then be off the books or even a guy like PK who's proven to be a team leader, quality clubhouse guy and big bat in the past signed for 2 more years, then we don't have a "bad contract" ala Zito or even a Rowand.

The Sox are well set up to be players in the FA market next year and beyond and have managed to get younger and stronger in the process. Other teams wish they had the Sox "contract problems".

voodoochile
03-13-2009, 11:47 AM
*cough*Fukudome*cough*

Yeah, his contract sucks, but if he was here, he'd solve the CF and LOH problems immediately...

Jenks4Prez
03-13-2009, 12:29 PM
Give me a break guys! Its OBVIOUSLY Jim Thome. I'm amused that anyone would think otherwise.

He's a 38 year old, 15.6 MILLION DOLLAR inning killer and his contract has handcuffed Kenny the past two offseasons.

MacDougal's contract is awful, but he's only getting 1.95 mil, 8% of what Thome makes.

Jim Shorts
03-13-2009, 01:30 PM
I can't believe what I've read about AJ in this thread....

It's probably only why I have less than 400 total posts here.

AJ is a bargin and any arguments to the contrary are ignorant arguments.

Billy Ashley
03-13-2009, 01:39 PM
If you have to choose between the options, the worst I see is Linebrink. But we wouldn't have said that before he got hurt last year. So I'm not drawing a conclusion on Linebrink until I see a bit more. If healthy, and pitching like he did most of the first half, he's not a bad contract. To compound it, Line has no trade protection. That's not a good thing.

MacDougal is gone after this year. The contract carries no long term liability. It's bad this year - for sure - but assuming the discussion is looking at the deals from today's vantage point, it isn't terrible.

PK has a few years left. Is on the wrong side of 30, and has started to show some decay. I'm hoping he bounces back healthy this year. Even if he doesn't, he only has 1 year and 12mm after this. That's not TERRIBLE.

I know the question was who is our worst...fortunately, we don't have one of those that is clearly a MLB-Worst type deal. Management's restrain has paid off in this area.

I wouldn't be surprised at all if Konerko bounced back. His numbers were deflated last year due to an abnormally low batting average. Now while this happens from time to time, it's more likely that he'll hit around .260 than .240. His walk rate was right in line with his career norms as was his K rate- so it doesn't look as if he was over matched anymore than usual, he just had a fluky bad season.

I'd expect a triple slash line of .260/.350/.490 with 25-30 home runs provided he's healthy. I do think we've seen the end of top tier first basemen Paul Konerko, but that doesn't mean he can't be a very solid regular.

Jenks4Prez
03-13-2009, 01:40 PM
i can't believe what i've read about aj in this thread....

It's probably only why i have less than 400 total posts here.

Aj is a bargin and any arguments to the contrary are ignorant arguments.


amen!

Billy Ashley
03-13-2009, 01:42 PM
I can't believe what I've read about AJ in this thread....

It's probably only why I have less than 400 total posts here.

AJ is a bargin and any arguments to the contrary are ignorant arguments.

Again, I don't think AJ has a bad contract, it's just that he has the most (actually second most, as I somehow forgot Linebrink in my initial post) chance of becoming an issue given 1) his age and 2) the position he plays.

Additionally, he's not much of a hitter so if over the next two years his defense takes a hit due to his age, he might be dead weight.

Jim Shorts
03-13-2009, 01:53 PM
Additionally, he's not much of a hitter so if over the next two years his defense takes a hit due to his age, he might be dead weight.

He's one of the most consistent hitters we have; he touches .300 nearly every season and finished at .281 last year. Not much of a hitter? Only when compared to the shoeless one, I guess.

UChicagoHP
03-13-2009, 01:56 PM
Give me a break guys! Its OBVIOUSLY Jim Thome. I'm amused that anyone would think otherwise.

He's a 38 year old, 15.6 MILLION DOLLAR inning killer and his contract has handcuffed Kenny the past two offseasons.

MacDougal's contract is awful, but he's only getting 1.95 mil, 8% of what Thome makes.

Yeah, gotta agree. Thome is probably the only player other GM's will not touch due to his contract. Of course, come July, if the Yankees/Angels/Red Sox are in desperate need of a DH, and the Sox are having a debacle of a season, someone may bite.

jabrch
03-13-2009, 02:18 PM
we don't have a "bad contract" ala Zito or even a Rowand.


How dare you?

IspepAloc
03-13-2009, 02:31 PM
How can we be forgetting about Harold Baines? We already have 1 statue of him on the concourse, not another on the field

I agree with MacDougal. Not worth the guaranteed 3 mill to play on the farm.

Billy Ashley
03-13-2009, 03:11 PM
He's one of the most consistent hitters we have; he touches .300 nearly every season and finished at .281 last year. Not much of a hitter? Only when compared to the shoeless one, I guess.

Let me first begin by saying the following categorically: AJ Pierzynski is not a bad major league baseball player. Heís consistently ok, at a position of great scarcity. Thatís worth a tremendous amount of money on the free agent market.

That said, in relation to the rest of major league baseball, AJ Pierzynski is a bad hitter. He creates a ton of outs in relation to the amount of plate appearances he receives due to the fact that he routinely posts OBP around .310. I like Ozzie Guillen as a manager, but when ever AJP bats near the top of the order, I roll my eyes. Over his career his OBP is .326 (during the same period of time the major league average was .340), over the past four seasons his OBP has been the following: .308, .333, .309 and .312. While acceptable for a catcher, those statistics would be a colossal disaster for anyone playing anywhere but C and maybe 2b and SS.

OPS and OPS+ are not perfect as they assume that OBP has about the same value as slugging percentage, which every study ever comparing the too has suggested is not the case. However, itís still a useful tool for a person to gain a quick snapshot of a players value as an offensive player. Given that such aforementioned studies have concluded that OBP has a great deal more value than slugging, OPS and OPS+ gives us a view of AJP performance that is skewed in his favor.

AJP career OPS: .754
Average OPS during the same period of time: .773

Over the past four years- .728, .769, .712, .728

His OPS+ for his career: 95
Over the past four years: 90, 94, 83, 88

If we ignore the fact that Slugging artificially enhances his standing, and the fact that heís slow on the base paths and that he grounds into 20 or so double plays a year, heís about on par as a hitter with Luis Castillo.

Now hereís the big error in my analysis (though to be fair to me, I stated it in the first paragraph). AJP plays catcher. Itís difficult to find catchers who arenít god awful offensively (and AJP is a lot closer to average than god awful) who donít kill you defensively.

I really donít want to go into a debate about his defense, because while defensive statistics are generally useful tools- quantifying a catcherís defensive abilities is something that none of them have ever been able to do well. Additionally, the school on AJP was that he was a terrible defensive catcher with SF and Twins and yet now an average one with the White Sox so it appears the world of scouting is very definitive on catchers defensive attributes either.

AJP is a very durable catcher, whom the white sox pitchers seem to feel comfortable throwing to. Heís an average starter at a position in which thereís an insane lack of depth to among major league baseball. My concerns about his contract rest only on the fact that heís already got a decent amount of games under his belt and that his bat really wouldnít justify any significant time at DH, 1b or the OF.

ILuvThatDuck
03-13-2009, 03:23 PM
Ozzie Guillen

sullythered
03-13-2009, 04:32 PM
Let me first begin by saying the following categorically: AJ Pierzynski is not a bad major league baseball player. Heís consistently ok, at a position of great scarcity. Thatís worth a tremendous amount of money on the free agent market.

That said, in relation to the rest of major league baseball, AJ Pierzynski is a bad hitter. He creates a ton of outs in relation to the amount of plate appearances he receives due to the fact that he routinely posts OBP around .310. I like Ozzie Guillen as a manager, but when ever AJP bats near the top of the order, I roll my eyes. Over his career his OBP is .326 (during the same period of time the major league average was .340), over the past four seasons his OBP has been the following: .308, .333, .309 and .312. While acceptable for a catcher, those statistics would be a colossal disaster for anyone playing anywhere but C and maybe 2b and SS.

OPS and OPS+ are not perfect as they assume that OBP has about the same value as slugging percentage, which every study ever comparing the too has suggested is not the case. However, itís still a useful tool for a person to gain a quick snapshot of a players value as an offensive player. Given that such aforementioned studies have concluded that OBP has a great deal more value than slugging, OPS and OPS+ gives us a view of AJP performance that is skewed in his favor.

AJP career OPS: .754
Average OPS during the same period of time: .773

Over the past four years- .728, .769, .712, .728

His OPS+ for his career: 95
Over the past four years: 90, 94, 83, 88

If we ignore the fact that Slugging artificially enhances his standing, and the fact that heís slow on the base paths and that he grounds into 20 or so double plays a year, heís about on par as a hitter with Luis Castillo.

Now hereís the big error in my analysis (though to be fair to me, I stated it in the first paragraph). AJP plays catcher. Itís difficult to find catchers who arenít god awful offensively (and AJP is a lot closer to average than god awful) who donít kill you defensively.

I really donít want to go into a debate about his defense, because while defensive statistics are generally useful tools- quantifying a catcherís defensive abilities is something that none of them have ever been able to do well. Additionally, the school on AJP was that he was a terrible defensive catcher with SF and Twins and yet now an average one with the White Sox so it appears the world of scouting is very definitive on catchers defensive attributes either.

AJP is a very durable catcher, whom the white sox pitchers seem to feel comfortable throwing to. Heís an average starter at a position in which thereís an insane lack of depth to among major league baseball. My concerns about his contract rest only on the fact that heís already got a decent amount of games under his belt and that his bat really wouldnít justify any significant time at DH, 1b or the OF.
AJ is EXACTLY the guy that proves that statistical analysis is only a small part of judging a player's worth to a team.

sullythered
03-13-2009, 04:42 PM
AJ is EXACTLY the guy that proves that statistical analysis is only a small part of judging a player's worth to a team.
Oh, and if we must stick to stats, AJ was 6th among all catchers in baseball in OPS. That's pretty good.

Billy Ashley
03-13-2009, 05:21 PM
Oh, and if we must stick to stats, AJ was 6th among all catchers in baseball in OPS. That's pretty good.

He was 6th of 9 among qualified catchers, that's not that impressive. According to that list he's in the bottom third.

Really though, would anyone find it outrageous for someone to argue that the following players weren't better hitters last season:

1. Joe Mauer
2. Brian McCann
3. Russel Martin
4. Soto
5. Benji Molina
6. Chris Iannetta
7. Kelly Shoppach
8.Ryan Doumit
9. Mike Napoli
10. Chris Snyder
11. Dioner Navaro
12. Y. Molina

Again, my point isn't that he sucks- it's that offensively, his bat would relegate him to the long island ducks if he weren't a catcher. Being a competent catcher is worth a ton and he's a competent catcher.

Billy Ashley
03-13-2009, 05:25 PM
AJ is EXACTLY the guy that proves that statistical analysis is only a small part of judging a player's worth to a team.

Any evidence to this?

Can't we say this about any player?

Is saying Marco Scutero is exactly the guy that proves that statistical analysis is only a small part of judging a players worth to a team any less valid than your point?

I mean, I get it... people don't like statistics here. But we got a guy who's a pretty good player here, but we're supposed to ignore his short comings because of what he adds to the team? A player who was considered a cancer in San Fran is now in the glue that keeps another team together?

I tend t believe neither are true.

Daver
03-13-2009, 05:37 PM
I tend to think that you're both full of it and of yourself, as long as we are handing out opinions.

UChicagoHP
03-13-2009, 05:44 PM
Billy Ashley, your posts are always informative and well-thought out, and I appreciate what you bring to this forum. You're never going to convince everyone of the importance of today's statistical analysis, but I respect someone who obviously loves the game as much as you do.

Scouting/observation/etc is extremely important as well...and both are essential to today's GM's.

These debates, as long as they don't become personal, make this forum one of the best on the internets for WhiteSox/baseball discussion. Keep it coming!

southwstchi4life
03-13-2009, 05:56 PM
I can't believe what I've read about AJ in this thread....

It's probably only why I have less than 400 total posts here.

AJ is a bargin and any arguments to the contrary are ignorant arguments.

Agreed. AJ is one of the smartest on field baseball players Ive seen

UChicagoHP
03-13-2009, 06:08 PM
Agreed. AJ is one of the smartest on field baseball players Ive seen

I don't think anyone in this thread has claimed AJ isn't a valuable asset to the Chicago White Sox, at least I hope not. The Sox have an advantage at the C position over 20 or so other franchises, and that is pretty damn good to know imo!

Daver
03-13-2009, 06:09 PM
Agreed. AJ is one of the smartest on field baseball players Ive seen


That's worthless because you can't measure it by the numbers.

Billy Ashley
03-13-2009, 06:11 PM
I tend to think that you're both full of it and of yourself, as long as we are handing out opinions.

Thanks for your input. You really shed some light on this debate!

Billy Ashley
03-13-2009, 06:13 PM
That's worthless because you can't measure it by the numbers.


I don't think I've ever argued that there isn't more to baseball than numbers, but have fun knocking down strawmen.

Just be careful, straw gives me a hell of a rash.

southwstchi4life
03-13-2009, 06:18 PM
That's worthless because you can't measure it by the numbers.

I disagree. While yes numbers are important, Which AJ's are pretty good, it does not measure the amount of games he has won for us due to some would call "antics" Others would call smarts of baseball. Numbers also do not measure durability, clutch hitting, leadership, Riling up batters behind the plate in which some would say affects outcomes in games and handling his own pitchers well. All in which affects the outcomes of baseball games.

Daver
03-13-2009, 06:28 PM
Just be careful, straw gives me a hell of a rash.

And you think I care for what reason?

Daver
03-13-2009, 06:28 PM
I disagree. While yes numbers are important, Which AJ's are pretty good, it does not measure the amount of games he has won for us due to some would call "antics" Others would call smarts of baseball. Numbers also do not measure durability, clutch hitting, leadership, Riling up batters behind the plate in which some would say affects outcomes in games and handling his own pitchers well. All in which affects the outcomes of baseball games.

I was being sarcastic for the benefit of the resident propellerhead.

Billy Ashley
03-13-2009, 06:32 PM
And you think I care for what reason?

Because you're knocking down strawmen-

would you like me to define strawmen for you?

southwstchi4life
03-13-2009, 06:33 PM
I was being sarcastic for the benefit of the resident propellerhead.

OH haha my bad

Daver
03-13-2009, 06:42 PM
Because you're knocking down strawmen-

would you like me to define strawmen for you?


And you think I care for what reason?


You didn't understand the first time?

Dan Mega
03-13-2009, 07:16 PM
Worst contracts = Paul Konerko and Ozzie Guillen. Its not even close.

Dan Mega
03-13-2009, 07:18 PM
MacDougal's contract is just awful.

Not too crazy about Linebrink's contract either. 3 more years and he alerady broke down in year 1 of the contract. Hopefully he can bounce back and stay healthy this season. We really suffered when him and Jenks went down last year.

Yeah this contract is bad too.

Billy Ashley
03-13-2009, 09:55 PM
You didn't understand the first time?


So I can now know for certain, you don't know what a straw man is. Excellent.

I have never argued that baseball can only be understood by analyzing data. If you bothered reading my posts in the Beckham thread, you'd see that I think the main determining factor leading a team to promote a player comes from the scouting and player development circles of an organization. Certainly some statistical analysis will be discussed at that point (for example what percentage of pitches outside the zone does the batter swings at, what are his walk rates).

However the majority of that decision will be made by the FO trying to ascertain the answers to questions like these: Does the pitcher repeat his delivery well? How is their footwork? How short is their bat to the ball? Do they have a good work ethic? Is player A likely to be overwhelmed with promotion so soon? Does player A keep his composer when he has to leave the wind up and pitch from the stretch?

Perhaps the most amazing thing about our little disagreements daver is this: I probably know more about scouting than you do. Sure, my understanding probably represents about .0001% of what scouts look at when they're assessing a player but in the end, I've at least actually read testimonies of what they look for.

I have enormous respect for what scouts do. I would never ever try to pretend that I am as good as they are in evaluating players. I can work with stats, because well- anyone who understands the basic laws of probability can. To be a scout, I'd need years upon years of formal training/ experience. Even then, since I never played beyond my senior year of high school- I probably would be greatly limited.

Finally, I don't dismiss chemistry or clutch or whatever intangible you wish to claim I ignore. I merely suggest that since we, the fans aren't in the club house day in and day out, we have no idea what's fact for fiction. My example of AJP is a perfect one. With one team, he's called a misanthrope who's likely to kick ya in the nuts. On another, he's a man's man , always willing to help. What is the truth- there is no way for any of us to know.

Daver
03-13-2009, 10:01 PM
So I can now know for certain, you don't know what a straw man is. Excellent.

I have never argued that baseball can only be understood by analyzing data. If you bothered reading my posts in the Beckham thread, you'd see that I think the main determining factor leading a team to promote a player comes from the scouting and player development circles of an organization. Certainly some statistical analysis will be discussed at that point (for example what percentage of pitches outside the zone does the batter swings at, what are his walk rates).

However the majority of that decision will be made by the FO trying to ascertain the answers to questions like these: Does the pitcher repeat his delivery well? How is their footwork? How short is their bat to the ball? Do they have a good work ethic? Is player A likely to be overwhelmed with promotion so soon? Does player A keep his composer when he has to leave the wind up and pitch from the stretch?

Perhaps the most amazing thing about our little disagreements daver is this: I probably know more about scouting than you do. Sure, my understanding probably represents about .0001% of what scouts look at when they're assessing a player but in the end, I've at least actually read testimonies of what they look for.

I have enormous respect for what scouts do. I would never ever try to pretend that I am as good as they are in evaluating players. I can work with stats, because well- anyone who understands the basic laws of probability can. To be a scout, I'd need years upon years of formal training/ experience. Even then, since I never played beyond my senior year of high school- I probably would be greatly limited.

Finally, I don't dismiss chemistry or clutch or whatever intangible you wish to claim I ignore. I merely suggest that since we, the fans aren't in the club house day in and day out, we have no idea what's fact for fiction. My example of AJP is a perfect one. With one team, he's called a misanthrope who's likely to kick ya in the nuts. On another, he's a man's man , always willing to help. What is the truth- there is no way for any of us to know.

I'm sure you think you do.


You amuse me to no end.

soxfanreggie
03-13-2009, 10:56 PM
I like having AJ on the team. He's what I call an "intangibles" player. I agree when they say he's the type of guy that you love when he's on your team and hate him if he's on another.

As for the worst contract, I'd have to go with MacDougal, but that could be surpassed by Linebrink if he struggles.

I don't think we have a lot of "bad" contracts, but I think that is partially because we don't sign a lot of high-risk, high-reward guys to huge long-term contracts.

tsoxman
03-14-2009, 08:37 AM
Hello everybody!!

MacDougal's contract was awful. When you add that they gave up a decent prospect (Dan Cortez) to get him makes the whole thing even worse.

That said, I think that when all is said and done, The Linebrink deal will be a stinker too. I think we are on the hook for another three years with him for about $5 million per. I like Scot when he is healthy, but I think from here forward, his health will be a question mark.

Notice the trend here? Buying relievers off of the shelf, especially overused ones can be very expensive. Please Kenny, start developing our own!

WSox597
03-15-2009, 07:48 AM
Wciu.

Can't argue with this. Worse TV station I've ever seen.

I cringe whenever they have the Sox on.

On topic, I'd say Owens. Even though he doesn't make much money by baseball standards, he seems to be clueless out there at every aspect of the game. He should probably start thinking about a career change. I don't believe he's long for baseball.

UChicagoHP
03-15-2009, 08:07 PM
http://www.baseballprospectus.com/article.php?articleid=8619

Interview with Diamondbacks director of baseball operations. Touching on many of the topics that are debated in this thread. Pretty enlightening interview on the inner-workings/thoughts of scouts/front-office/etc.