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View Full Version : Owens being passed by Wise for CF job - bittersweet?


rowand33
03-10-2009, 11:58 AM
From the trib today:

http://www.chicagotribune.com/news/chi-10-white-sox-chicagomar10,0,5100449.story

I'm no Jerry Owens fan, and am looking forward to a team without him starting, but Wise being in CF and leading off everyday is an equally terrifying prospect.

Why can't Brian Anderson learn how to hit .250 and start everyday? CF problem solved.

eriqjaffe
03-10-2009, 11:59 AM
Gordon Beckham's the answer to everything!

HomeFish
03-10-2009, 11:59 AM
Say what you want about Wise, the guy can really turn it on for short stretches of time, whereas BA just sucks all the time.

Rocky Soprano
03-10-2009, 12:10 PM
Say what you want about Wise, the guy can really turn it on for short stretches of time, whereas BA just sucks all the time.

Don't YOU mean, the team sucks all the time?

kittle42
03-10-2009, 12:16 PM
The hot hand has to be the answer, given the list of players vying for CF and for leadoff, and I think that will result in a lot of lineup shifts throughout the season. If Wise wins it out of ST, fine, but I doubt he'll keep it.

Carolina Kenny
03-10-2009, 12:21 PM
The hot hand has to be the answer, given the list of players vying for CF and for leadoff, and I think that will result in a lot of lineup shifts throughout the season. If Wise wins it out of ST, fine, but I doubt he'll keep it.

And that is the sad truth.

HomeFish
03-10-2009, 12:21 PM
Don't YOU mean, the team sucks all the time?

BA sucks so much, he sucks more than the White Sox! :o::o::o:

bradchifan3
03-10-2009, 12:22 PM
If we could deal with Uribe, than how come we can't deal with Anderson?

And it's not like Wise or Owens would be much of an offensive upgrade anyways.

Rocky Soprano
03-10-2009, 12:27 PM
If we could deal with Uribe, than how come we can't deal with Anderson?

And it's not like Wise or Owens would be much of an offensive upgrade anyways.

If Anderson is our starting CF, who is going to leadoff?

Craig Grebeck
03-10-2009, 12:29 PM
If Anderson is our starting CF, who is going to leadoff?
I chuckle every time this question is asked. Do you really, seriously want Owens or Wise getting the most at-bats on this team? The answer is easy: Alexei Ramirez or Chris Getz.

doublem23
03-10-2009, 12:29 PM
If we could deal with Uribe, than how come we can't deal with Anderson?

And it's not like Wise or Owens would be much of an offensive upgrade anyways.

Juan Uribe's career line is .253/.295/.423.

We'd be thrilled if BA could ever be that good of a hitter.

veeter
03-10-2009, 12:31 PM
The hot hand has to be the answer, given the list of players vying for CF and for leadoff, and I think that will result in a lot of lineup shifts throughout the season. If Wise wins it out of ST, fine, but I doubt he'll keep it.When PK went down last year, that's exactly what happened. Swisher played first and Anderson/ Wise platooned, IIRC. The Sox played some very good ball during that stretch. Owens is playing himself right out of any plans. With Krueger hitting like he has, that's like the nail in the coffin for Jerry.

Rocky Soprano
03-10-2009, 12:34 PM
I chuckle every time this question is asked. Do you really, seriously want Owens or Wise getting the most at-bats on this team? The answer is easy: Alexei Ramirez or Chris Getz.

How is the answer so easy when neither of them have either batted in the lead off spot?

How do you know they would succeed there?

kittle42
03-10-2009, 12:34 PM
I chuckle every time this question is asked. Do you really, seriously want Owens or Wise getting the most at-bats on this team? The answer is easy: Alexei Ramirez or Chris Getz.

Agreed that the CF winner certainly doesn't need to lead off. In fact, given the 3 candidates, the CF winner very well shouldn't be leading off.

kittle42
03-10-2009, 12:35 PM
How is the answer so easy when neither of them have either batted in the lead off spot?

How do you know they would succeed there?

Better than taking Owens or Wise or Anderson, who we already know wouldn't succeed.

WHILEPITCH
03-10-2009, 12:37 PM
Alexei wont be leading off, they dont want him to completely change what type of hitter he is.

I really think it's going to be Wise and Anderson platooning, neither as a leadoff hitter. Getz is the best man for the job, until Beckham can be under consideration.



Wise has to be on the team. He is the only one who put together some hot stretches late last year. Last year he was 2 for 3 with bases loaded, kind of a fun but not extremely meaningful stat. Also, i believe his PH stats were the best on the team.

EDIT: 5 for 12 as a pinch hitter w/ 7 RBIs

Rocky Soprano
03-10-2009, 12:38 PM
Agreed that the CF winner certainly doesn't need to lead off. In fact, given the 3 candidates, the CF winner very well shouldn't be leading off.

I agree completely with this, but it seems that the organizations plans are to make our CF our leadoff hitter as well.

sox1970
03-10-2009, 12:39 PM
Owens needs to go.

To start the season, I'd platoon Getz and Lillibridge at leadoff, and bat Anderson 9th. Anderson can't hit consistently, but he can prevent enough runs in CF to make it worth it.

voodoochile
03-10-2009, 12:43 PM
When PK went down last year, that's exactly what happened. Swisher played first and Anderson/ Wise platooned, IIRC. The Sox played some very good ball during that stretch. Owens is playing himself right out of any plans. With Krueger hitting like he has, that's like the nail in the coffin for Jerry.

Is Kroeger actually a serious contender to even make the team? I'm looking at his minor league stats (all 9 years of them - though he's still just 25) and am wondering how serious his getting PT is.

Did the Sox sign him as a FA or did they rule 5 draft him?

sox1970
03-10-2009, 12:45 PM
Is Kroeger actually a serious contender to even make the team? I'm looking at his minor league stats (all 9 years of them - though he's still just 25) and am wondering how serious his getting PT is.

Did the Sox sign him as a FA or did they rule 5 draft him?

He's 26, and was free agent.

I still think he's a long shot to make the team. They'd probably still take Wise over him at this point.

WHILEPITCH
03-10-2009, 12:46 PM
Owens needs to go.

To start the season, I'd platoon Getz and Lillibridge at leadoff, and bat Anderson 9th. Anderson can't hit consistently, but he can prevent enough runs in CF to make it worth it.

He may also kill enough rallies to render his defense less meaningful. We cant assume either way with a one-dimensional player.

jdm2662
03-10-2009, 12:47 PM
Owens needs to go.

To start the season, I'd platoon Getz and Lillibridge at leadoff, and bat Anderson 9th. Anderson can't hit consistently, but he can prevent enough runs in CF to make it worth it.

While that's not ideal, with the personnel the Sox have, it's probably the best way to go. I just wish Anderson could hit even .245. He'd be fine as the ninth hitter.

sox1970
03-10-2009, 12:48 PM
He may also kill enough rallies to render his defense less meaningful. We cant assume either way with a one-dimensional player.

I'll still take his defense and batting 9th, when he has Quentin and Dye on his left and right.

doublem23
03-10-2009, 12:49 PM
Is Kroeger actually a serious contender to even make the team? I'm looking at his minor league stats (all 9 years of them - though he's still just 25) and am wondering how serious his getting PT is.

Did the Sox sign him as a FA or did they rule 5 draft him?

Kroeger has "organizational depth" written all over him. Then again, we probably would have said the same thing about Wise last year, too.

I can't imagine him making the team, though, because we'd have to carry something like 5 outfielders then.

voodoochile
03-10-2009, 12:50 PM
Kroeger has "organizational depth" written all over him. Then again, we probably would have said the same thing about Wise last year, too.

I can't imagine him making the team, though, because we'd have to carry something like 5 outfielders then.

That's what I figured. Can Betemit or any of the other potential IF utility guys play some OF as a 5th option?

bradchifan3
03-10-2009, 12:54 PM
Owens needs to go.

To start the season, I'd platoon Getz and Lillibridge at leadoff, and bat Anderson 9th. Anderson can't hit consistently, but he can prevent enough runs in CF to make it worth it.

+1

Owens isn't a baseball player. BA, please bat .250 so we can end this convo!!!!

WHILEPITCH
03-10-2009, 12:55 PM
With Wise and Owens out of options...... would the team really want to say goodbye to Owens completely? With the dearth of leadoff hitters out there, i'm sure some team would pick him up just to take a look.

voodoochile
03-10-2009, 12:59 PM
With Wise and Owens out of options...... would the team really want to say goodbye to Owens completely? With the dearth of leadoff hitters out there, i'm sure some team would pick him up just to take a look.

Which is probably why he's leading the team in spring AB. They are going to give him every chance to play his way on to the team.

tm1119
03-10-2009, 01:03 PM
Kroeger has "organizational depth" written all over him. Then again, we probably would have said the same thing about Wise last year, too.

I can't imagine him making the team, though, because we'd have to carry something like 5 outfielders then.

Still WAY too early to be judging Spring stats. If Owens goes 3 for 3 in his next game all of a sudden hes hitting .275 with a .437 OBP(hope i did my math right on that). Lets just wait and see and hope there is a clear winner at the end of Spring Training.

sox1970
03-10-2009, 01:07 PM
Still WAY too early to be judging Spring stats. If Owens goes 3 for 3 in his next game all of a sudden hes hitting .275 with a .437 OBP(hope i did my math right on that). Lets just wait and see and hope there is a clear winner at the end of Spring Training.

No matter what the stats say, I'll still know he takes bad routes to balls in the outfield, which will ultimately lead to him diving for balls that he should have been standing under. He's going to get hurt out there.

BainesHOF
03-10-2009, 01:16 PM
It's disappointing that the organization felt that Owens was a real option. He's not.

whitesox901
03-10-2009, 01:16 PM
Wise or Owens, I really didn't care, they may not be the greatest lead-off hitters, but they were the closest thing we had, besides, you never know how one will play

bradchifan3
03-10-2009, 01:19 PM
Wise or Owens, I really didn't care, they may not be the greatest lead-off hitters, but they were the closest thing we had, besides, you never know how one will play

It's this argument that confuses me to no end.

veeter
03-10-2009, 01:24 PM
That's what I figured. Can Betemit or any of the other potential IF utility guys play some OF as a 5th option?I'd rather keep Krueger who can really hit, than keep Betemit who does nothing very well at all. With the hopeful emergence of Beckham and Viciedo, Betemit will be an afterthought very soon, IMO. Krueger does seem like organizational depth, but he can flat out rake. I haven't seen his defense, though.

Sargeant79
03-10-2009, 01:39 PM
That's what I figured. Can Betemit or any of the other potential IF utility guys play some OF as a 5th option?

I think I remember reading that Lillibridge has played some CF, although I don't really know how well he did it.

WhiteSox5187
03-10-2009, 01:39 PM
No matter what the stats say, I'll still know he takes bad routes to balls in the outfield, which will ultimately lead to him diving for balls that he should have been standing under. He's going to get hurt out there.
Wise will do the same thing. I remember watching a game he played against the Tigers where he looked as bad as Mackowiak out there.

102605
03-10-2009, 01:44 PM
Owens looks done to me. He does not even look lightning fast anymore. The guy is giving 110% effort but his bat just never came around.

Eddo144
03-10-2009, 01:52 PM
Wise or Owens, I really didn't care, they may not be the greatest lead-off hitters, but they were the closest thing we had, besides, you never know how one will play
Um, I'd say a good hitter is the "closest thing we had". A poor hitter should never be an option to lead off, regardless of how fast he is or how well he can steal bases.

Rickey Henderson and Tim Raines were great leadoff hitters because they excelled at getting on base. The fact that they could steal bases was just an added bonus (as it would be anywhere in the lineup).

esbrechtel
03-10-2009, 02:23 PM
With Wise and Owens out of options...... would the team really want to say goodbye to Owens completely? With the dearth of leadoff hitters out there, i'm sure some team would pick him up just to take a look.


I would have zero problems letting Owens go for nothing :dunno:

He is currently hitting .197 :o:

JermaineDye05
03-10-2009, 02:26 PM
Methinks this means that Beckham has been thrown into the lead off race.

tm1119
03-10-2009, 02:30 PM
I would have zero problems letting Owens go for nothing :dunno:

He is currently hitting .197 :o:

Yeah because the 1st 26 ab's in ST can really determine how good a player is.

kittle42
03-10-2009, 02:37 PM
Yeah because the 1st 26 ab's in ST can really determine how good a player is.

I've always heard you need at least 50 ST ABs to know how good a player is. :cool:

Tragg
03-10-2009, 02:38 PM
The Sox will need a 5th outfielder. You can't keep both Wise and Owens. It would be nice to have a decent bat out there for pinch hitting and some spot play. 2 CF (limited as Anderson and Owens/Wise may be) is sufficient. Wise was a 32 year old career minor leaguer who caught Guillen's eye for some reason. Kroger can't be any worse than him.

The only skills that Wise or Owens have that suggest leadoff is speed. They sorely lack the most important skill which is on base ability or secondarily, or able to hit the baseball.

doublem23
03-10-2009, 02:38 PM
Methinks this means that Beckham has been thrown into the lead off race.

For the Barons.

The Dude
03-10-2009, 02:48 PM
If we could deal with Uribe, than how come we can't deal with Anderson?

And it's not like Wise or Owens would be much of an offensive upgrade anyways.

If we have to deal with Wise or Owens as the main CF, god help us.

thedudeabides
03-10-2009, 02:49 PM
I chuckle every time this question is asked. Do you really, seriously want Owens or Wise getting the most at-bats on this team? The answer is easy: Alexei Ramirez or Chris Getz.

Then management would have to change their minds. They have said they want to bat Alexei down in the order to take advantage of his pop, and to keep some speed down in the order. Ozzie has said if Getz is the starting 2b he doesn't want to bat him leadoff. But, they may be forced to change their minds.

esbrechtel
03-10-2009, 02:55 PM
Yeah because the 1st 26 ab's in ST can really determine how good a player is.


ok....well

First off the guy was drafted by the Expos...and hasn't played a full season yet...:o:

He hit .331 in AA in 2005 and hasn't even come close to that since...

AAA stats
2006- 112 games avg .262 OBP .330
2007- 59 games avg .284 OBP .361
2008- 89 games avg .276 OBP .346

MLB stats
2006- 12 games avg .333 OBP .333 (YUCK!)
2007- 93 games avg .267 :o: OBP .324 (meh)
2008- 12 games avg .250 :o: OBP .250 :o::o:

He is getting progressively worse...and is 27

267 is fine for the 9 hole but not leadoff...OC hit .281 with a 334 OBP last season and in 05 Pods .290 OBP .351

Owens isnt even close to either...

esbrechtel
03-10-2009, 02:56 PM
For the Barons.

Ha nice...

WHILEPITCH
03-10-2009, 03:01 PM
ok....well

First off the guy was drafted by the Expos...and hasn't played a full season yet...:o:

He hit .331 in AA in 2005 and hasn't even come close to that since...

AAA stats
2006- 112 games avg .262 OBP .330
2007- 59 games avg .284 OBP .361
2008- 89 games avg .276 OBP .346

MLB stats
2006- 12 games avg .333 OBP .333 (YUCK!)
2007- 93 games avg .267 :o: OBP .324 (meh)
2008- 12 games avg .250 :o: OBP .250 :o::o:

He is getting progressively worse...and is 27

267 is fine for the 9 hole but not leadoff...OC hit .281 with a 334 OBP last season and in 05 Pods .290 OBP .351

Owens isnt even close to either...

Owens is however kind of close to what Pods was in his late 20s...career minor leaguer...hopefully putting some things together late.

voodoochile
03-10-2009, 03:04 PM
ok....well

First off the guy was drafted by the Expos...and hasn't played a full season yet...:o:

He hit .331 in AA in 2005 and hasn't even come close to that since...

AAA stats
2006- 112 games avg .262 OBP .330
2007- 59 games avg .284 OBP .361
2008- 89 games avg .276 OBP .346

MLB stats
2006- 12 games avg .333 OBP .333 (YUCK!)
2007- 93 games avg .267 :o: OBP .324 (meh)
2008- 12 games avg .250 :o: OBP .250 :o::o:

He is getting progressively worse...and is 27

267 is fine for the 9 hole but not leadoff...OC hit .281 with a 334 OBP last season and in 05 Pods .290 OBP .351

Owens isnt even close to either...

LOL...

He had a total of 25 AB in 2006 and 2008. I assume that's why you posted game totals instead of AB totals because you know there was no way in heck anyone would accept your crappy biased stats if you showed the actual sample sizes you were looking at.

esbrechtel
03-10-2009, 03:05 PM
I guess Pods did hit .314 when he was 27 however, he always had a good OBP....

tm1119
03-10-2009, 03:07 PM
ok....well

First off the guy was drafted by the Expos...and hasn't played a full season yet...:o:

He hit .331 in AA in 2005 and hasn't even come close to that since...

AAA stats
2006- 112 games avg .262 OBP .330
2007- 59 games avg .284 OBP .361
2008- 89 games avg .276 OBP .346

MLB stats
2006- 12 games avg .333 OBP .333 (YUCK!)
2007- 93 games avg .267 :o: OBP .324 (meh)
2008- 12 games avg .250 :o: OBP .250 :o::o:

He is getting progressively worse...and is 27

267 is fine for the 9 hole but not leadoff...OC hit .281 with a 334 OBP last season and in 05 Pods .290 OBP .351

Owens isnt even close to either...

Ha, you are seriously a joke. Do me a favor and check the stats of our other options in CF.

esbrechtel
03-10-2009, 03:08 PM
LOL...

He had a total of 25 AB in 2006 and 2008. I assume that's why you posted game totals instead of AB totals because you know there was no way in heck anyone would accept your crappy biased stats if you showed the actual sample sizes you were looking at.

I just posted his Major League numbers available...I wasn't going to post his whole stat line....You want to see it here it is....

http://www.baseball-reference.com/o/owensje01.shtml

I also posted all of his Minor League numbers...
found here...
http://minors.baseball-reference.com/players.cgi?pid=10862

Either way he is not good.....

esbrechtel
03-10-2009, 03:09 PM
Ha, you are seriously a joke. Do me a favor and check the stats of our other options in CF.

Leadoff hitter or CF two completely different things...

voodoochile
03-10-2009, 03:11 PM
I just posted his Major League numbers available...I wasn't going to post his whole stat line....You want to see it here it is....

http://www.baseball-reference.com/o/owensje01.shtml

I also posted all of his Minor League numbers...
found here...
http://minors.baseball-reference.com/players.cgi?pid=10862

Either way he is not good.....


Not defending Owens, just hate when people abuse stats to make their argument...

kittle42
03-10-2009, 03:14 PM
Can't Ozzie just keep them all and draw straws every day? Same difference.

esbrechtel
03-10-2009, 03:16 PM
Lead off candidates for this year their stats from last season....

2nd base

Lillibridge 2008 AAA 90 games avg. .220 OBP .294 (Yuck)

Getz 2008 AAA 111 games avg. .302 OBP .366

CF last season

Wise MLB 57 games .248 .293 AAA 55 games .319 .402
Anderson MLB 109 games .232 .272


While there seem to be no good options in CF I would rather a platoon of Wise or Owens and Anderson and hit 9th and have Getz leadoff...

tm1119
03-10-2009, 03:17 PM
Leadoff hitter or CF two completely different things...


You said that the white sox should basically cut Owens, and then posted stupid batting stats to back up your opinion. However, if you put your bias aside you would realize that despite how sad it is Owens put up the better season in his rookie year than either of the 2 options have so far.

esbrechtel
03-10-2009, 03:19 PM
I meant that if Owens doesn't make the team I have no problem with the sox cutting him. I am fine with Wise/Anderson if necessary...

Jordan Danks will be ready in a year or two we only need a stop gap for now IMO....

doublem23
03-10-2009, 03:29 PM
If we have to deal with Wise or Owens as the main CF, god help us.

There's definitely not enough .220 hitters in our lineup.

tm1119
03-10-2009, 03:34 PM
I meant that if Owens doesn't make the team I have no problem with the sox cutting him. I am fine with Wise/Anderson if necessary...

Jordan Danks will be ready in a year or two we only need a stop gap for now IMO....

I'm fine with a platoon too, but you are being ridiculous by pointing to meaningless stats and trying to make Owens look worse than he really is.

And I wouldnt hold my breathe on that Danks thing either.

WHILEPITCH
03-10-2009, 03:40 PM
Wise I want to see over the course of a whole year.

We feel like he's a known commodity, but really we havent seen tons of him. He could be someone who puts it together later in his career.

Also, the stats for him look bad, but we definitely all know he's someone who can hit in pressure at-bats. Of the cf candidates, I see three consistently below average hitters, with one of them having shown the penchant for getting hot. Wise.

esbrechtel
03-10-2009, 03:41 PM
I'm fine with a platoon too, but you are being ridiculous by pointing to meaningless stats and trying to make Owens look worse than he really is.

And I wouldnt hold my breathe on that Danks thing either.

?

And why not? :dunno:

russ99
03-10-2009, 03:41 PM
Yeah because the 1st 26 ab's in ST can really determine how good a player is.

Especially considering he was favoring an injury the first week.

Yesterday didn't help his cause, and it is time for him to step it up, but let's see where we are a week or two from now.

esbrechtel
03-10-2009, 03:46 PM
Danks hit .325 in Kansas in 40 at bats last season...
Beckham hit .310 in 58 and everyone at WSI is putting him on the CWS roster at the end of camp

Why wouldn't I expect Danks to be ready in a year or two?

tm1119
03-10-2009, 03:47 PM
?

And why not? :dunno:

Because he is far from a cant miss prospect. He has potential and could very well make an impact on our team. But there are very few prospects who a team can pencil into their future lineup, and Danks is not one of them.

voodoochile
03-10-2009, 03:55 PM
Wise I want to see over the course of a whole year.

Well odds are we are going to see a platoon. If Owens can't pick it up then it will be Wise and BA and honestly given their splits against the pitchers they will face that's alright. BA had his best year statistically last season when he faced almost exclusively LHP and his splits against them aren't half bad - in the area of where his glove becomes valuable enough to keep him around and let him start (at least against LHP).

The platoon is gonna happen barring a major breakout from one of these three. BA will make the team as at least the 4th OF and odds are the starter against LHP barring a trade or said breakout.

Where they bat is the only question yet to be determined.

Sargeant79
03-10-2009, 03:55 PM
Also, the stats for him look bad, but we definitely all know he's someone who can hit in pressure at-bats. Of the cf candidates, I see three consistently below average hitters, with one of them having shown the penchant for getting hot. Wise.

...And unfortunately, that's not the same one who actually knows how to field the position.

ode to veeck
03-10-2009, 04:08 PM
Owens is however kind of close to what Pods was in his late 20s...career minor leaguer...hopefully putting some things together late.

Not even close on the comparison there; what kind of stuff might that be in your crack pipe?! Owens is a wash, nearly no tools player.

bradchifan3
03-10-2009, 04:12 PM
Anyone know why Ozzie doesn't want Getz leading off? (Which, btw, is the most overrated spot in the lineup)

Daver
03-10-2009, 04:14 PM
...And unfortunately, that's not the same one who actually knows how to field the position.

This is the Chicago White Sox, fielding is optional as long as you can hit.

thedudeabides
03-10-2009, 04:17 PM
Anyone know why Ozzie doesn't want Getz leading off? (Which, btw, is the most overrated spot in the lineup)

He doesn't want to put any added pressure on him.

Konerko05
03-10-2009, 04:21 PM
This is the Chicago White Sox, fielding is optional as long as you can hit.

Or run, I guess.

Tragg
03-10-2009, 04:22 PM
If we have to deal with Wise or Owens as the main CF, god help us.
INdeed. Neither can field nor hit.

bradchifan3
03-10-2009, 04:39 PM
This is the Chicago White Sox, fielding is optional as long as you can hit.

That implies that one of our options can hit.

spiffie
03-10-2009, 04:41 PM
This is the Chicago White Sox, fielding is optional as long as you can hit.
I assume this applies to our mystery 4th CF candidate, the Invisible Outfielder? Because none of the three currently discussed could hit water if they fell out of a boat.

thomas35forever
03-10-2009, 04:51 PM
I assume this applies to our mystery 4th CF candidate, the Invisible Outfielder? Because none of the three currently discussed could hit water if they fell out of a boat.
I think our fourth CF candidate is the Legend of Aaron Rowand.

JohnTucker0814
03-10-2009, 04:54 PM
I assume this applies to our mystery 4th CF candidate, the Invisible Outfielder? Because none of the three currently discussed could hit water if they fell out of a boat.

Does that mean they all walk on water? Sounds like they are pretty amazing to me!

seventyseven
03-10-2009, 04:59 PM
I don't know what other options we have right now, but I'd love it if the Sox left spring training with Owens and Wise headed to AAA or worse. I don't like either one.

doublem23
03-10-2009, 05:18 PM
Anyone know why Ozzie doesn't want Getz leading off? (Which, btw, is the most overrated spot in the lineup)

That's a new one.

Craig Grebeck
03-10-2009, 05:22 PM
Danks hit .325 in Kansas in 40 at bats last season...
Beckham hit .310 in 58 and everyone at WSI is putting him on the CWS roster at the end of camp

Why wouldn't I expect Danks to be ready in a year or two?
Dude, seriously?

voodoochile
03-10-2009, 05:22 PM
I think our fourth CF candidate is the Legend of Aaron Rowand.

Actually, it's Brian Anderson and he holds the position quite well.

bradchifan3
03-10-2009, 05:33 PM
That's a new one.

Curiosity over just what is going on in Ozzie's head is new? Overrating the lead-off man is new? Ummmm...NO.

How about you answer the question instead of trying (and failing) to take shots at other people with differing opinions?

doublem23
03-10-2009, 05:40 PM
Curiosity over just what is going on in Ozzie's head is new? Overrating the lead-off man is new? Ummmm...NO.

How about you answer the question instead of trying (and failing) to take shots at other people with differing opinions?

Well let's see, you've already played the "We need a good defensive center fielder" card and now there's the "lead-off hitters are overrated" card. I'm looking forward to the next great revelation on baseball that explains why Brian Anderson should be our center fielder.

Wait, I got it... The guy batting ninth shouldn't hit better than .200, right? To keep balance in the order?

kittle42
03-10-2009, 05:40 PM
Curiosity over just what is going on in Ozzie's head is new? Overrating the lead-off man is new? Ummmm...NO.

How about you answer the question instead of trying (and failing) to take shots at other people with differing opinions?

How can leadoff be overrated? That position will bat the most of any in the lineup over the course of a game, a series, a week, a month, a season, infinity.

DSpivack
03-10-2009, 05:55 PM
How can leadoff be overrated? That position will bat the most of any in the lineup over the course of a game, a series, a week, a month, a season, infinity.

Pfft, clearly you are unaware of the controversial decision made by the South American League in 2344 to adopt a ".5." spot in the lineup.

voodoochile
03-10-2009, 06:03 PM
Pfft, clearly you are unaware of the controversial decision made by the South American League in 2344 to adopt a ".5." spot in the lineup.

Baseball, not blearnsball...

DSpivack
03-10-2009, 06:41 PM
Baseball, not blearnsball...

It's so easy to get them confused.

Blueprint1
03-10-2009, 06:44 PM
I am really looking forward to another year of this. :rolleyes:

doublem23
03-10-2009, 07:35 PM
I am really looking forward to another year of this. :rolleyes:

I'm sorry the 12,000 of us don't agree on everything.

kittle42
03-10-2009, 07:45 PM
I'm sorry the 12,000 of us don't agree on everything.

It'll continue until this team acquires an actual good player to play CF, or to leadoff, or both.

It's Dankerific
03-10-2009, 07:47 PM
Everyone knows my feelings on BA and Owens and Wise.

I also really like KW's quote of the offseason (see sig).

I've decided to post another great quote by a very intelligent man in regards to Brian.

Never discourage anyone who continually makes progress, no matter how slow. - Plato (427 BC - 347 BC)

HebrewHammer
03-10-2009, 08:17 PM
Jerry Owens career minor league OBP: .359
DeWayne Wise career minor league OBP: .309!!! in 11 seasons!!! 3555 career MINOR LEAGUE at bats!

Is the goal to find the worst possible player to leadoff and play centerfield? If we start every game with an out will that take the pressure off the rest of the lineup?

I never thought we'd have a player that would make me support Jerry Owens. DeWayne is that player.

How is DeWayne Wise not selling insurance or developing real estate? He sucked in Toronto. He sucked in Atlanta. He sucked in Cincinati. I'm noticing a trend here. He shouldn't be playing baseball. Let alone leading off and playing centerfield for a team that should contend for the division title.

WHILEPITCH
03-10-2009, 08:32 PM
Not even close on the comparison there; what kind of stuff might that be in your crack pipe?! Owens is a wash, nearly no tools player.

Generally I keep crack in my crack pipe. To ask that question's a bit redundant isnt it?

At no point did i say Owens will be the next Pods. I indicated that some guys bloom late, and unlike many here, I'm not writing anyone off until theyve had most of a year to fail like Brian did.




I'd be happy to write someone off if there was blistering talent available for us at CF, but as is we're going to go with what we've got.

bradchifan3
03-10-2009, 08:35 PM
“If Brian Anderson would have played every day last year, he would have hit about .275 and would have hit 25 home runs, I don't think you can disagree with that.”

Greatest quote of all time.

Craig Grebeck
03-10-2009, 08:36 PM
“If Brian Anderson would have played every day last year, he would have hit about .275 and would have hit 25 home runs, I don't think you can disagree with that.”

Greatest quote of all time.
That is painful to read. Anyone who would make such an assessment should not work in baseball.

kittle42
03-10-2009, 08:37 PM
“If Brian Anderson would have played every day last year, he would have hit about .275 and would have hit 25 home runs, I don't think you can disagree with that.”

Greatest quote of all time.

Dr. King, FDR, and Churchill would be proud.

kittle42
03-10-2009, 08:39 PM
By the way, this thread contained the most measured discussion over CF we have seen in quite some time until Dankerific and brad pissed all over that with the same old rehashed stuff.

WHILEPITCH
03-10-2009, 08:40 PM
That is painful to read. Anyone who would make such an assessment should not work in baseball.

He's just talking up a trade candidate, KW's never been afraid to hyperbolize

rdwj
03-10-2009, 08:45 PM
That is painful to read. Anyone who would make such an assessment should not work in baseball.

How many world series teams have you put together?

It's Dankerific
03-10-2009, 08:46 PM
By the way, this thread contained the most measured discussion over CF we have seen in quite some time until Dankerific and brad pissed all over that with the same old rehashed stuff.

Yeah, my 3 sentence post, including a Plato quote was way over the line and rehashed. Unlike your wonderful, insightful commentary.

Hey, I play CF like ****. Can I be the 4th contender for the job since apparently there is no difference in ****?

JB98
03-10-2009, 10:22 PM
“If Brian Anderson would have played every day last year, he would have hit about .275 and would have hit 25 home runs, I don't think you can disagree with that.”

Greatest quote of all time.

I disagree with it. It's bull****.

We don't have a good CF on this team.

SoxGirl4Life
03-10-2009, 10:29 PM
I'm in awe.

I haven't read one post in this thread, but I've watched it gain a life of its own throughout the day. Over 100 replies? And all this after the OTHER Jerry Owens thread was relegated to the Roadhouse yesterday.

Simply amazing. :gulp:

Dan Mega
03-10-2009, 10:32 PM
I disagree with it. It's bull****.

We don't have a good CF on this team.

Yes they do. A CF with a great glove. The issue is with his bat.

JB98
03-10-2009, 10:40 PM
Yes they do. A CF with a great glove. The issue is with his bat.

Fine. We don't have a single player on this roster who deserves to start in CF.

Happy now?

SoxGirl4Life
03-10-2009, 10:46 PM
JB in reference to your sig: I hit your blog pretty regularly. Good read.

Your back and forth with Leslie is priceless too :)

JB98
03-10-2009, 10:50 PM
JB in reference to your sig: I hit your blog pretty regularly. Good read.

Your back and forth with Leslie is priceless too :)

Thanks. I appreciate that.

champagne030
03-10-2009, 11:03 PM
Generally I keep crack in my crack pipe. To ask that question's a bit redundant isnt it?

At no point did i say Owens will be the next Pods. I indicated that some guys bloom late, and unlike many here, I'm not writing anyone off until theyve had most of a year to fail like Brian did.

Most of the year? He was benched on day 2. Go back to the crack pipe.

voodoochile
03-10-2009, 11:10 PM
Most of the year? He was benched on day 2. Go back to the crack pipe.

Since when is getting nearly 400 AB in a single season considered a benching?

champagne030
03-10-2009, 11:12 PM
Since when is getting nearly 400 AB in a single season considered a benching?

Since on day two you ride the pine.

CWSpalehoseCWS
03-10-2009, 11:18 PM
Off topic, but does anyone know what happened to Josh Kroeger? He's no longer listed on the Sox NRI list. I can't imagine we released him or reassigned him that fast. He's been pretty good.

kittle42
03-10-2009, 11:19 PM
Since on day two you ride the pine.

This is a new one...Guillen gave up on him on day 2!

You guys are funny.

voodoochile
03-10-2009, 11:20 PM
Since on day two you ride the pine.

A one day benching? Sounds like hyperbole run amok, but I expect no less in these debates. Never have a few crappy players engendered so much fervent debate by so many fans...

champagne030
03-10-2009, 11:22 PM
This is a new one...Guillen gave up on him on day 2!

You guys are funny.

I didn't find it funny that he played CF on day 2. You did? And it's not a new one. Ozzie ****ed that situation up huge.

champagne030
03-10-2009, 11:26 PM
A one day benching? Sounds like hyperbole run amok, but I expect no less in these debates. Never have a few crappy players engendered so much fervent debate by so many fans...

On day two, after a 2-3 performance? Sounds like :KoodAid: and ass kissing is running "amok" toward Ozzie to me? :shrug:

whitesox901
03-10-2009, 11:30 PM
dr. King, fdr, and churchill would be proud.

:d: lol nice

JB98
03-10-2009, 11:33 PM
Yet another ****ing circus thread on CF.

How I wished KW would get somebody legit to play the position this offseason. Didn't happen.

kittle42
03-10-2009, 11:34 PM
On day two, after a 2-3 performance? Sounds like :KoodAid: and ass kissing is running "amok" toward Ozzie to me? :shrug:

If this is shtick, it's being done well!

Dan Mega
03-10-2009, 11:40 PM
Fine. We don't have a single player on this roster who deserves to start in CF.

Happy now?

:happybday

champagne030
03-10-2009, 11:43 PM
If this is shtick, it's being done well!

The 2K# elephant is still in the room and it happened. Confirmed by White Sox.

voodoochile
03-10-2009, 11:47 PM
On day two, after a 2-3 performance? Sounds like :KoodAid: and ass kissing is running "amok" toward Ozzie to me? :shrug:

If this is shtick, it's being done well!

I'm reading this and cracking up. I hope you're right, Kittle, if not, 030 needs...

:prozac

Tragg
03-10-2009, 11:50 PM
Despite all of the bashing of Anderson's hitting and the love of powerless slap hitting, Anderson remains the superior hitter:

Career OPS

Anderson: 656
Wise: 639
Owens: 633 (some consider this acceptable for leadoff -yikes!)

And Owens and Wise aren't on Anderson's planet defensively.

Anderson never received 2 months of uninterrupted play that Ozzie gave Owens, not to mention Owens got it out of the advantageous 1 hole, while Anderson was in the 9 hole. Since then, Guillen has hit Anderson primarily against lefties, when he hits righties better.

voodoochile
03-11-2009, 12:08 AM
Despite all of the bashing of Anderson's hitting and the love of powerless slap hitting, Anderson remains the superior hitter:

Career OPS

Anderson: 656
Wise: 639
Owens: 633 (some consider this acceptable for leadoff -yikes!)

And Owens and Wise aren't on Anderson's planet defensively.

Anderson never received 2 months of uninterrupted play that Ozzie gave Owens, not to mention Owens got it out of the advantageous 1 hole, while Anderson was in the 9 hole. Since then, Guillen has hit Anderson primarily against lefties, when he hits righties better.

Have you actually checked BA's splits from last year which was spent mostly against LHP? It's easily the best of his career and he no longer hits RHP better on a career basis. Not only that, but it's not like his splits against RHP were EVER anything to write home about.

Here, I'll post them for you...

Last year in 80 AB against LHP, BA posted a .825 OPS including a .563 slg% and ALL 8 of his HR.

Meanwhile in 100 AB against RHP he posted a .617 OPS (ouch) with twice as many K's.

His three year splits are:

V LHP .681 OPS, .401 slg%, 10 HR, 53 K's in 247 AB
V RHP .645 OPS .361 slg%, 6 HR, 89 K's in 381 AB.

How many more AB against RHP should BA get?

Meanwhile last year against RHP, Wise posted:

.797 OPS, .487 SLG%, 6 HR, 29 K's in 115 AB

So ideally, they could split time based on pitcher this year and we might get something close to an OPS of .800 out of CF this season.

The only thing Owens beats these two in is his OBP. Wise actually stole 9 bases last year which would come out to like 30 in 350 AB.

Owens career OBP is .321. He just doesn't hit for power at all, so his OPS is weak, but if one of these three has to leadoff, Owens is probably the best choice the other two are best suited for low lineup AB due to the high K's lack of walks and touch of power.

Owens OBP is about the same for either type of pitcher, but his batting average is much higher against RHP. He's also mostly faced RHP since his first callup with over 300 of his AB coming against them.

Still, I do wish someone would explain to me how BA's ability to hit RHP better than he does LHP (something he no longer does) justifies playing him when his OPS against RHP still sucks to high heaven.

You want his glove out there, fine, but stop defending his bat. It sucks. It's not an opinon. It's a fact.

tm1119
03-11-2009, 12:09 AM
Despite all of the bashing of Anderson's hitting and the love of powerless slap hitting, Anderson remains the superior hitter:

Career OPS

Anderson: 656
Wise: 639
Owens: 633 (some consider this acceptable for leadoff -yikes!)

And Owens and Wise aren't on Anderson's planet defensively.

Anderson never received 2 months of uninterrupted play that Ozzie gave Owens, not to mention Owens got it out of the advantageous 1 hole, while Anderson was in the 9 hole. Since then, Guillen has hit Anderson primarily against lefties, when he hits righties better.

Youre not serious are you? Youre really using OPS as the only way to determine who is the best hitter? That doesnt make sense on multiple levels. Power #'s might be the last thing you look for in a CF. There are many stats and skills that are ahead of SLG% on the list of qualities you look for in a CF. And to prove that, Swisher's OPS was only .001 lower than Ichiro's last year. You take your pick out of those 2.

kittle42
03-11-2009, 12:24 AM
Have you actually checked BA's splits from last year which was spent mostly against LHP? It's easily the best of his career and he no longer hits RHP better on a career basis. Not only that, but it's not like his splits against RHP were EVER anything to write home about.

Here, I'll post them for you...

Last year in 80 AB against LHP, BA posted a .825 OPS including a .563 slg% and ALL 8 of his HR.

Meanwhile in 100 AB against RHP he posted a .617 OPS (ouch) with twice as many K's.

His three year splits are:

V LHP .681 OPS, .401 slg%, 10 HR, 53 K's in 247 AB
V RHP .645 OPS .361 slg%, 6 HR, 89 K's in 381 AB.

How many more AB against RHP should BA get?

Meanwhile last year against RHP, Wise posted:

.797 OPS, .487 SLG%, 6 HR, 29 K's in 115 AB

So ideally, they could split time based on pitcher this year and we might get something close to an OPS of .800 out of CF this season.

The only thing Owens beats these two in is his OBP. Wise actually stole 9 bases last year which would come out to like 30 in 350 AB.

Owens career OBP is .321. He just doesn't hit for power at all, so his OPS is weak, but if one of these three has to leadoff, Owens is probably the best choice the other two are best suited for low lineup AB due to the high K's lack of walks and touch of power.

Owens OBP is about the same for either type of pitcher, but his batting average is much higher against RHP. He's also mostly faced RHP since his first callup with over 300 of his AB coming against them.

Still, I do wish someone would explain to me how BA's ability to hit RHP better than he does LHP (something he no longer does) justifies playing him when his OPS against RHP still sucks to high heaven.

You want his glove out there, fine, but stop defending his bat. It sucks. It's not an opinion. It's a fact.

Great post. It will go widely ignored unless it is "countered" by a quote from Kenny Williams. Facts are wasted in this debate (except for the fact that Kenny Williams made that quote!).

kittle42
03-11-2009, 12:25 AM
Youre not serious are you? Youre really using OPS as the only way to determine who is the best hitter? That doesnt make sense on multiple levels. Power #'s might be the last thing you look for in a CF. There are many stats and skills that are ahead of SLG% on the list of qualities you look for in a CF. And to prove that, Swisher's OPS was only .001 lower than Ichiro's last year. You take your pick out of those 2.

tm - from now on, let's just cut and paste voodoo's post above yours. I think it's about all that needs to be said.

Eddo144
03-11-2009, 12:36 AM
Youre not serious are you? Youre really using OPS as the only way to determine who is the best hitter? That doesnt make sense on multiple levels. Power #'s might be the last thing you look for in a CF. There are many stats and skills that are ahead of SLG% on the list of qualities you look for in a CF. And to prove that, Swisher's OPS was only .001 lower than Ichiro's last year. You take your pick out of those 2.
I would use OPS either, I'd use OBP. Owens's OBP is the highest of the three, but it's not like it's good.

It's the bolded part I take issue with. Just why are power numbers the last thing you look for in a CF? If you mean that you'd look for defense first, that's fine, I won't argue with that, but if you mean you'd rather have a slap hitter than a slugger, I will disagree. Plain and simple, hitters who can drive the ball are more productive than slap hitters.

I used to be an Anderson supporter. These ridiculous debates have made me numb to the whole thing. I just want one of these three players to actually play well - I don't care if it's BA, JO, or DW. My biggest concern is that Ozzie will just hand the leadoff spot to Owens or Wise because they're fast, even if they aren't getting on base enough to be a good hitter.

kittle42
03-11-2009, 12:37 AM
I used to be an Anderson supporter. These ridiculous debates have made me numb to the whole thing. I just want one of these three players to actually play well - I don't care if it's BA, JO, or DW. My biggest concern is that Ozzie will just hand the leadoff spot to Owens or Wise because they're fast, even if they aren't getting on base enough to be a good hitter.

Amen.

Tragg
03-11-2009, 12:43 AM
Youre not serious are you? Youre really using OPS as the only way to determine who is the best hitter? That doesnt make sense on multiple levels. Power #'s might be the last thing you look for in a CF. There are many stats and skills that are ahead of SLG% on the list of qualities you look for in a CF. And to prove that, Swisher's OPS was only .001 lower than Ichiro's last year. You take your pick out of those 2.

Hey Willy and Mickey - all of those homers you hit? Irrelevant. Didn't need them. You played CF and those are the last things you look for.


The logic of the lovers of slap-hittes is silly. Because they are slap hitters, power is irrelevant.
The ability to drive the ball is important. No one is going to throw balls and potentially walk you is they know your limit is mid center field and usually you hit ground balls (Jerry Owens ball). We're talking about a 9 hole hitter here (which any of Anderson, Wise or Owens should hit - the notion that Owens is a leadoff hitter is absolutely daft).

WHILEPITCH
03-11-2009, 02:09 AM
The White Sox are gonna give Owens every opportunity to take this job. His career OBP of .321 is not great, but it's good enough to make the team think he's gonna get driven in a bunch by the heart of the lineup.

Cabrera had .334 OBP for us last year, leading off for a team that went to the playoffs. While Cabrera was far more likely to hit a double than Owens will be...Owens will have a better chance of taking 2nd, distracting pitchers and helping in those other ways.

I dont totally like it but the team's better if Owens is given ample chance to even just slightly improve on his usual OBP.


In 380 career ABs, Owens has proven more likely to get on base than Alexei in AR's 480 career ABs. And then more able to steal 2nd. Obviously Alexei's no leadoff guy, but it gives you perspective.

Owens breaking out will help the team more than Brian breaking out. I think Brian's offensive breakout would still be modest OBP but with good power. We have enough guys doing that. If the team somehow wins a championship this year, it will be because the top of the order was spectacularly shocking. Not because we became elite in CF defense.

It's Dankerific
03-11-2009, 06:41 AM
In 380 career ABs, Owens has proven more likely to get on base than Alexei in AR's 480 career ABs. And then more able to steal 2nd. Obviously Alexei's no leadoff guy, but it gives you perspective.

Owens breaking out will help the team more than Brian breaking out. I think Brian's offensive breakout would still be modest OBP but with good power. We have enough guys doing that. If the team somehow wins a championship this year, it will be because the top of the order was spectacularly shocking. Not because we became elite in CF defense.

The only perspective that gives is a trip to crazy town. I guess we'll ignore the fact that Alexei is more likely to already be on second, or home, or have driven in a run, or hit in the clutch, or even catch the ****ing ball on defense.

I posted in a previous thread how this bull**** about Owens creating more runs was just imaginary. BA has scored more runs from the 9 spot than Mr. Owens has LEADING OFF when you compare similar time. But Owens is so fast? How can that be? The fact is while BA is not a base stealer, he is a good base RUNNER and does the little things like go 1st to 3rd. Maybe thats why The God-Child Ozzie pinch runs BA when he has the likes of faster men on the bench as well.

But I suppose you'll also tell me that catching the ball, cutting off extra base hits, hitting the cutoff man and throwing runners out at home has no place in a discussion about baseball or CF.

Maybe what we really should be discussing is a way to get both Owens AND Wise into the same lineup.

Frater Perdurabo
03-11-2009, 07:57 AM
Maybe thats why The God-Child Ozzie pinch runs BA when he has the likes of faster men on the bench as well.

But I suppose you'll also tell me that catching the ball, cutting off extra base hits, hitting the cutoff man and throwing runners out at home has no place in a discussion about baseball or CF.

I don't think Ozzie is an idiot, nor do I think BA is in his doghouse anymore. However, I do think it was a big mistake to give Mackowiak so many CF starts in 2006, and I do think Ozzie still does not place enough emphasis on defense in CF.

Madscout
03-11-2009, 10:03 AM
Owens career OBP is .321. He just doesn't hit for power at all, so his OPS is weak, but if one of these three has to leadoff, Owens is probably the best choice the other two are best suited for low lineup AB due to the high K's lack of walks and touch of power.
That's the thing that gets me. We have better options in other places that have a possibility to succeed. But we know exactly what we are going to get from Owens: no SLG, decent OBP, and a horrible average while playing very sub par defense. Why not have a guy, like say Getz, play his position compatantly and leadoff for you when he can easily post the same or better numbers? He won't steal many bags, but he will go from first to third on most singles, and first to home on most doubles. We have 2-7 pretty much a lock, so you drop Owens, and either let BA play his D out there with Wise as a late inning replacement, or you platoon the two and always have BA in the game after Wise's last AB.

jdm2662
03-11-2009, 10:07 AM
I don't think Ozzie is an idiot, nor do I think BA is in his doghouse anymore. However, I do think it was a big mistake to give Mackowiak so many CF starts in 2006, and I do think Ozzie still does not place enough emphasis on defense in CF.

I don't care who plays. As long as the players are performing and the the team is winning, I'm happy. In 2006, I felt Anderson should've been playing for the simple fact I felt Mackowiak's glove was hurting the team more than Anderson's bat. While the CF situation today isn't ideal, I guess I would go with Anderson since we know he has the superior glove. However, if Wise or Owens plays and performs, more power to them. I just wish Anderson could hit .250 already and end this discussion for good. He'd be fine batting ninth if that was the case.

EndemicSox
03-11-2009, 10:12 AM
Not bittersweet, just bitter. It's probably time for Kenny to make a trade for a CF, as I don't believe any of the current crop has what it takes. Time will tell...

The organization had the right idea by moving Alexei to CF, kind of wish he'd have worked through his issues last season, but oh well, it is still a possibility down the road. With Beckham in the wings, it could have solved a problem.

russ99
03-11-2009, 10:18 AM
That's the thing that gets me. We have better options in other places that have a possibility to succeed. But we know exactly what we are going to get from Owens: no SLG, decent OBP, and a horrible average while playing very sub par defense. Why not have a guy, like say Getz, play his position compatantly and leadoff for you when he can easily post the same or better numbers? He won't steal many bags, but he will go from first to third on most singles, and first to home on most doubles. We have 2-7 pretty much a lock, so you drop Owens, and either let BA play his D out there with Wise as a late inning replacement, or you platoon the two and always have BA in the game after Wise's last AB.

Oh yeah, let's force a kid with 5 MLB at-bats and is currently trailing in the 2B competition into the leadoff spot, just so BA can play. "Possibility to succeed"? Really, that's more like setting the kid to fail, just so your guy gets a better shot that anyone else. Brilliant...

I don't especially like what we have on the team right now, but unless Lillibridge shakes out of his funk or Alexei suddenly learns to be patient at the plate, Owens is the best choice we have right now for leadoff, regardless of his obvious flaws. And what part of Owens' career .268 average in the majors is "horrible"?

I just wish Kenny would have done something this offseason to fix it for good.

Craig Grebeck
03-11-2009, 11:16 AM
Oh yeah, let's force a kid with 5 MLB at-bats and is currently trailing in the 2B competition into the leadoff spot, just so BA can play. "Possibility to succeed"? Really, that's more like setting the kid to fail, just so your guy gets a better shot that anyone else. Brilliant...

I don't especially like what we have on the team right now, but unless Lillibridge shakes out of his funk or Alexei suddenly learns to be patient at the plate, Owens is the best choice we have right now for leadoff, regardless of his obvious flaws. And what part of Owens' career .268 average in the majors is "horrible"?

I just wish Kenny would have done something this offseason to fix it for good.
Do you really think Getz is trailing the 2B competition? If Nix beats Getz out, I lose a ton of faith in this organization's ability to perceive talent and meaningful statistics.

It's Dankerific
03-11-2009, 11:17 AM
And what part of Owens' career .268 average in the majors is "horrible"?


Probably the part that he doesn't score or drive in runs.

Jenks4Prez
03-11-2009, 11:20 AM
The CF position for the 2009 Chicago White Sox is an absolute mess.

-Master of the obvious.

guillen4life13
03-11-2009, 11:59 AM
Do you really think Getz is trailing the 2B competition? If Nix beats Getz out, I lose a ton of faith in this organization's ability to perceive talent and meaningful statistics.

Then apply to be a scout or the GM. If Getz is beaten out, that would mean that someone played better than him. I think that's really what matters in a positional battle.

Craig Grebeck
03-11-2009, 12:02 PM
Then apply to be a scout or the GM. If Getz is beaten out, that would mean that someone played better than him. I think that's really what matters in a positional battle.
It is spring training. There is ample evidence (other than a few at bats in Arizona against sub-par pitching) that Jayson Nix is not very good at baseball.

KenBerryGrab
03-11-2009, 12:10 PM
And what part of Owens' career .268 average in the majors is "horrible"?


The no-pop, low OBP part.

WHILEPITCH
03-11-2009, 12:23 PM
The CF position for the 2009 Chicago White Sox is an absolute mess.

-Master of the obvious.

Not to nitpick, but we cant really call it a mess til we see regular season problems. Right now it's just a year where they're going young. There have been times in the past where that has paid off and been a surprise. but we dont know yet.

tm1119
03-11-2009, 12:55 PM
I would use OPS either, I'd use OBP. Owens's OBP is the highest of the three, but it's not like it's good.

It's the bolded part I take issue with. Just why are power numbers the last thing you look for in a CF? If you mean that you'd look for defense first, that's fine, I won't argue with that, but if you mean you'd rather have a slap hitter than a slugger, I will disagree. Plain and simple, hitters who can drive the ball are more productive than slap hitters.

I used to be an Anderson supporter. These ridiculous debates have made me numb to the whole thing. I just want one of these three players to actually play well - I don't care if it's BA, JO, or DW. My biggest concern is that Ozzie will just hand the leadoff spot to Owens or Wise because they're fast, even if they aren't getting on base enough to be a good hitter.

Ok yeah that was a bit of over exaggeration. I didnt mean it literally. But, I would look for OBP, Defense, and AVG in a CF first before I look for SLG%. Power hitting CF's arent all that common, its more of a luxury really.

Danryan
03-11-2009, 01:01 PM
Juan Pierre is the answer. He could be had cheap and is a better solution than the other options.

Frater Perdurabo
03-11-2009, 01:05 PM
Juan Pierre is the answer. He could be had cheap and is a better solution than the other options.

Yes, if the Dodgers pick up most of his salary.

Frater Perdurabo
03-11-2009, 01:07 PM
Ok yeah that was a bit of over exaggeration. I didnt mean it literally. But, I would look for OBP, Defense, and AVG in a CF first before I look for SLG%. Power hitting CF's arent all that common, its more of a luxury really.

I look for defense first in my CF. Then I put him in the batting order based on what kind of hitter he is.

oeo
03-11-2009, 01:13 PM
Juan Pierre is the answer. He could be had cheap and is a better solution than the other options.

He's not THE answer. He's a better option than the other three, but that's not saying much. Unless the Dodgers picked up a hefty amount of that contract, I'd rather we just take the hit with Anderson in CF. Maybe Kenny can swing a deal at the deadline for someone. Or hopefully we can sign a Cuban next year. :D:

russ99
03-11-2009, 01:54 PM
Do you really think Getz is trailing the 2B competition? If Nix beats Getz out, I lose a ton of faith in this organization's ability to perceive talent and meaningful statistics.

Why is that? Nix is very solid at the position and has done pretty well hitting his entire career, except for that two-month stint in Colorado last season. He's a viable candidate as far as I can tell.

Are we practicing favoritism with other Sox players not named Anderson? Or maybe Anderson favoritism is a large part of what makes people want Getz to make the team...

bradchifan3
03-11-2009, 02:13 PM
Why is that? Nix is very solid at the position and has done pretty well hitting his entire career, except for that two-month stint in Colorado last season. He's a viable candidate as far as I can tell.

Are we practicing favoritism with other Sox players not named Anderson? Or maybe Anderson favoritism is a large part of what makes people want Getz to make the team...


I don't know tons about the 2B job but I would be surprised if Getz doesn't get it.

Anyways, why do people want Owens leading off? Just because he can steal some bases? I think people just want to bring back '05 Scotty Pods, and they think Owens might be that guy. Well, sorry to disappoint, but he isn't. I'd like our lead-off guy to have a high OBP. I think the whole base stealer concept is completely overrated. I just want guys on base for Quentin and Dye.

As someone already said, 2-7 are pretty locked in. 3B is 8th. So that leaves 2B and CF for 1 and 9. My opinion is put whoever wins the 2B job at the oh so important lead-off spot.

Eddo144
03-11-2009, 02:29 PM
I look for defense first in my CF. Then I put him in the batting order based on what kind of hitter he is.
Frater, this is the most accurate statement I have ever read on this board. Well done.

voodoochile
03-11-2009, 03:01 PM
I look for defense first in my CF. Then I put him in the batting order based on what kind of hitter he is.

I think there's a minimum ability to hit that has to be fulfilled by any position. I mean where do you draw the line? What if BA had an OPS of .550? .500?

You have to find balance in this game because while defense is important in CF, there's a good reason to consider a BA/Wise platoon as the best overall option as things currently stand.

kittle42
03-11-2009, 03:04 PM
I think there's a minimum ability to hit that has to be fulfilled by any position. I mean where do you draw the line? What if BA had an OPS of .550? .500?

You have to find balance in this game because while defense is important in CF, there's a good reason to consider a BA/Wise platoon as the best overall option as things currently stand.

Very true. The days of the light-hitting defensive whiz SS being common are long gone. My point being there is no position for which offense is completely sacrificed anymore.

Frater Perdurabo
03-11-2009, 03:27 PM
I think there's a minimum ability to hit that has to be fulfilled by any position. I mean where do you draw the line? What if BA had an OPS of .550? .500?

You have to find balance in this game because while defense is important in CF, there's a good reason to consider a BA/Wise platoon as the best overall option as things currently stand.

Very true. The days of the light-hitting defensive whiz SS being common are long gone. My point being there is no position for which offense is completely sacrificed anymore.

I don't disagree with either of you. Of course BA shouldn't be in the lineup if he's OPS-ing .550.

At the same time, you have to consider the context of the team. The Sox have two ferocious hitters in LF and RF, but neither one of them has great range. Therefore, I'd personally give up a little more at the plate in the #9 hole to get better defensively in CF.

voodoochile
03-11-2009, 03:34 PM
I don't disagree with either of you. Of course BA shouldn't be in the lineup if he's OPS-ing .550.

At the same time, you have to consider the context of the team. The Sox have two ferocious hitters in LF and RF, but neither one of them has great range. Therefore, I'd personally give up a little more at the plate in the #9 hole to get better defensively in CF.

That's fine. Still, where do you draw the line personally? .550 is out. What about .600?

If the platoon mentioned above can generate a .750+ OPS over the course of a season (and it looks like it might) do you accept Wise's lesser defensive skills in CF 60% of the time to increase the offensive output of the team overall or got with BA and his .630 OPS against RHP that 60% of the time?

Personaly, I do the platoon in a heartbeat given our current situation.

It's Dankerific
03-11-2009, 03:37 PM
I don't disagree with either of you. Of course BA shouldn't be in the lineup if he's OPS-ing .550.

At the same time, you have to consider the context of the team. The Sox have two ferocious hitters in LF and RF, but neither one of them has great range. Therefore, I'd personally give up a little more at the plate in the #9 hole to get better defensively in CF.

Thats what is forgotten so often. CF is not an island to itself, either. If you had people on the corners who were going to be covering ground, maybe defense isn't so important. If you didnt have a huge amount of offense coming from your corners, maybe offense is a little more important, but basically you have 2 +offensive players (maybe one of them will even be ++) but at best average fielders (and perhaps a -). In that context you have a defensive need and an offensive surplus in the OF.

Plus, in limited time this weak offensive player hit 8 HR. 15-20 HR over the year is not a stretch. out of the 9 hole..

Craig Grebeck
03-11-2009, 03:44 PM
Why is that? Nix is very solid at the position and has done pretty well hitting his entire career, except for that two-month stint in Colorado last season. He's a viable candidate as far as I can tell.

Are we practicing favoritism with other Sox players not named Anderson? Or maybe Anderson favoritism is a large part of what makes people want Getz to make the team...
Take a gander at those minor league stats one more time and re-evaluate that first statement.

voodoochile
03-11-2009, 03:56 PM
Thats what is forgotten so often. CF is not an island to itself, either. If you had people on the corners who were going to be covering ground, maybe defense isn't so important. If you didnt have a huge amount of offense coming from your corners, maybe offense is a little more important, but basically you have 2 +offensive players (maybe one of them will even be ++) but at best average fielders (and perhaps a -). In that context you have a defensive need and an offensive surplus in the OF.

Plus, in limited time this weak offensive player hit 8 HR. 15-20 HR over the year is not a stretch. out of the 9 hole..

ALL of them against LHP.

bradchifan3
03-11-2009, 03:58 PM
ALL of them against LHP.

Seriously? I'm sure if he played more against righties, he would have homered off them too.

voodoochile
03-11-2009, 04:00 PM
Seriously? I'm sure if he played more against righties, he would have homered off them too.

He had 100 AB against RHP and 80 against LHP. He posted a .616 OPS (edit: .617 see my post earlier in this thread) against RHP and struck out twice as often as he did against LHP.

Go check the stats yourself. How can you defend a guy offensively when you don't even know the stats on him?

kittle42
03-11-2009, 04:02 PM
Seriously? I'm sure if he played more against righties, he would have homered off them too.

I KNEW KNEW KNEW voodoo's post above would get ignored...it simply made too much sense and was actually filled with facts to be paid any attention to in this argument.



Here, I'll post them for you...

Last year in 80 AB against LHP, BA posted a .825 OPS including a .563 slg% and ALL 8 of his HR.

Meanwhile in 100 AB against RHP he posted a .617 OPS (ouch) with twice as many K's.



He had more ABs against righties. He didn't homer against them. Aberration? Sure. But you are wrong.

bradchifan3
03-11-2009, 04:02 PM
He had 100 AB against RHP and 80 against LHP. He posted a .616 OPS (edit: .617 see my post earlier in this thread) against RHP and struck out twice as often as he did against LHP.

Go check the stats yourself. How can you defend a guy offensively when you don't even know the stats on him?

He also hit 6 hr's against righties in '06 with only 2 vs. lefties.

kittle42
03-11-2009, 04:04 PM
Go check the stats yourself. How can you defend a guy offensively when you don't even know the stats on him?

Because facts are irrelevant.

kittle42
03-11-2009, 04:07 PM
Oh, brad, not the best debater...

Plus, in limited time this weak offensive player hit 8 HR. 15-20 HR over the year is not a stretch. out of the 9 hole..

We have established dankerific is talking about 2008.

ALL of them against LHP.

So is voodoo.

Seriously? I'm sure if he played more against righties, he would have homered off them too.

Wrong, as the stats showed for 2008, which is what we were all talking about, including you.

He also hit 6 hr's against righties in '06 with only 2 vs. lefties.

Explain how this is a retort.

voodoochile
03-11-2009, 04:08 PM
He also hit 6 hr's against righties in '06 with only 2 vs. lefties.

In 365 AB and still managed to post a whopping .649 OPS with a 1:4 K:AB ratio.

That was also his first extended time in the majors. It's quite possible there's a book on how RHP should pitch to BA that wasn't there when he first came up. It's not uncommon for teams to throw new guys fastballs to see if they can hit, but if they prove they can hit a fastball to start throwing them breaking pitches. Anyone who's watched Brian regularly whiff on curves and off speed pitches last year could tell you what's going on.

Still, I like BA as the starter against LHP this season and as a late inning defensive replacement. In fact if either Owens or Wise is starting against LHP, Ozzie needs to be called on it, IMO.

Daver
03-11-2009, 04:09 PM
Because facts are irrelevant.

So is this thread, it is merely a repetition of the same thing repeated ad nauseum.

Quentin4prez
03-11-2009, 04:10 PM
idk if i would like alexei leading off he doesnt take walks and isnt much of a basestealer even tho he has the speed. a better solution would be move lexi to cf becks or if they dont want to bring him up lilli at ss and getz at 2nd so either getz or lilli leads off and one of getz or becks bats in the 2 hole.

but now that i look at it would any1 say lilli atm is a better hitter than owens there positions aside which would u rather have at the plate?

bradchifan3
03-11-2009, 04:11 PM
It's pretty easy. Saying that ALL of his homers were against lefties is implying that can't hit homers off righties. I'm simply saying it was an aberration, he hit 75% of his homers off righties in '06. The more you play, the smoother your statistics are. It's basic knowledge.

soxinem1
03-11-2009, 04:13 PM
+1

Owens isn't a baseball player. BA, please bat .250 so we can end this convo!!!!

If Ozzie cares so much about athleticism, defense, and whatever else he yaps about, then neither Wise nor Owens would even be in this equation to begin with.

All I know is when BA was a semi-regular in 2007, the team ERA was lower.

Not only that, with TCQ and Dye flanking the corners, can you honestly tell me that either of these guys can cover the ground to make up for Quentin and Dye's lack of mobility? Please.

It just amazes me that we can give chances to Lillebridge, Getz, Owens, and Wise, but BA has to get ****ed over for even being considered being a regular.

The bigger joke during ST this year is when BA is in LF or RF when one of these guys mans CF. Don't you think it should be the other way around?

The only BA becomes a regular, or gets a shot at CF full-time is when Owens and Wise fall flat, both of which are high probabilities.

BA for CF in 2009!

It's Dankerific
03-11-2009, 04:14 PM
In 2008, BA had 80 AB against LH. Result, as pointed out was 8 HRs, exclusively against LH pitching.

In 2008, OC had 165 AB against LH, JD had 158 AB against LH.

If BA faced all the left-handed pitchers and had (for easy math sake) 160 AB, that would project to 16 HR over the year.

Thats right, 16 HR, assuming he hits ZERO HOMERUNS against RHP.

So, I guess saying between 15-20 would be easily expected is just, you know, true. Even using the absurdity that he would hit ZERO HR against a RHP ALL YEAR LONG.

kittle42
03-11-2009, 04:15 PM
So is this thread, it is merely a repetition of the same thing repeated ad nauseum.

Yeah, I know. And I know I am guilty of contributing to it. But the debate is just *so* bad.

soxinem1
03-11-2009, 04:17 PM
I think Ozzie likes Owens so much because he resembled him as a hitter when he played.

Slap hitter, swung at everything, zero power, very few extra-base hits, and an OBP for ****.

kittle42
03-11-2009, 04:17 PM
It just amazes me that we can give chances to Lillebridge, Getz, Owens, and Wise, but BA has to get ****ed over for even being considered being a regular.

And this is why this debate will never end.

kittle42
03-11-2009, 04:18 PM
So, I guess saying between 15-20 would be easily expected is just, you know, true. Even using the absurdity that he would hit ZERO HR against a RHP ALL YEAR LONG.

I consider it a no-brainer than Anderson would hit about 20 HRs if he started.

It's Dankerific
03-11-2009, 04:23 PM
I consider it a no-brainer than Anderson would hit about 20 HRs if he started.

From the 9 hole, yet that is a blackhole? Thats what I dont understand. 20 HRs equates to at least 40-50 RBI. And thats assuming ZERO improvement from playing everyday.

Why is this even a debatable issue?

voodoochile
03-11-2009, 04:30 PM
From the 9 hole, yet that is a blackhole? Thats what I dont understand. 20 HRs equates to at least 40-50 RBI. And thats assuming ZERO improvement from playing everyday.

Why is this even a debatable issue?

Right, but let's extend this math and look at the platoon situation.

Last year Wise hit 6 HR in 115 AB against RHP.

So if BA got 200 AB (mostly against LHP) and hit 17 HR, then Wise would get about 400 AB against RHP and add another 20 HR. The two of them together would post almost 37 HR from the 9 hole (based on last year's stats - though Wise hits RHP consistently for power whenever he's been given extended AB it's his OBP that sucks to high heaven, but so does BA, so we live with what we got).

Are you claiming that you think BA can make up those 17 HR with his glove?

russ99
03-11-2009, 04:30 PM
In 365 AB and still managed to post a whopping .649 OPS with a 1:4 K:AB ratio.

That was also his first extended time in the majors. It's quite possible there's a book on how RHP should pitch to BA that wasn't there when he first came up. It's not uncommon for teams to throw new guys fastballs to see if they can hit, but if they prove they can hit a fastball to start throwing them breaking pitches. Anyone who's watched Brian regularly whiff on curves and off speed pitches last year could tell you what's going on.

Still, I like BA as the starter against LHP this season and as a late inning defensive replacement. In fact if either Owens or Wise is starting against LHP, Ozzie needs to be called on it, IMO.

What now we're supposed to tell pitchers how to pitch to Anderson too? This is ridiculous. The guy can't hit big league pitching with any regularity. Deal with it.

And Nix hit .260 over 8 minor league seasons inclucing .290 in AAA in 2007 and .303 last year. How is that not "doing pretty well"? Not groundbreaking, but that doesn't discount him from winning the Sox 2B job...

bradchifan3
03-11-2009, 04:36 PM
Right, but let's extend this math and look at the platoon situation.

Last year Wise hit 6 HR in 115 AB against RHP.

So if BA got 200 AB (mostly against LHP) and hit 17 HR, then Wise would get about 400 AB against RHP and add another 20 HR. The two of them together would post almost 37 HR from the 9 hole (based on last year's stats - though Wise hits RHP consistently for power whenever he's been given extended AB it's his OBP that sucks to high heaven, but so does BA, so we live with what we got).

Are you claiming that you think BA can make up those 17 HR with his glove?

Yes.

voodoochile
03-11-2009, 04:37 PM
yes.

bwahahahahahahahahahahaha!!!

Edit: Okay, I'll try to be done with this now...

bradchifan3
03-11-2009, 04:38 PM
bwahahahahahahahahahahaha!!!

Edit: Okay, I'll try to be done with this now...

How many runs do you think Mackowiak cost us in 2006?

voodoochile
03-11-2009, 04:39 PM
How many runs do you think Mackowiak cost us in 2006?

On what planet is Wise as bad defensively in CF as Mack was?

bradchifan3
03-11-2009, 04:41 PM
On what planet is Wise as bad defensively in CF as Mack was?

This one. Wise is awful on defense.

So BA hits 17 homers in 200 AB's vs. LHP. Wise hits 20 homers in 400 AB's vs. RHP. But how many homers would Wise hit in 200 AB's vs. LHP and BA in 400 vs. RHP?

voodoochile
03-11-2009, 04:48 PM
This one. Wise is awful on defense.

So BA hits 17 homers in 200 AB's vs. LHP. Wise hits 20 homers in 400 AB's vs. RHP. But how many homers would Wise hit in 200 AB's vs. LHP and BA in 400 vs. RHP?

Looking a the stats, not many.

Oh you do know that Wise actually gets to more chances per game than BA does in CF, right? That's not only last year, but over the course of his career. Yes, BA has a lot more innings than Wise in CF and no, defensive stats are crappy, but at every OF position, Wise posts better numbers than BA purely on balls he gets to.

bradchifan3
03-11-2009, 04:54 PM
Looking a the stats, not many.

Oh you do know that Wise actually gets to more chances per game than BA does in CF, right? That's not only last year, but over the course of his career. Yes, BA has a lot more innings than Wise in CF and no, defensive stats are crappy, but at every OF position, Wise posts better numbers than BA purely on balls he gets to.

I don't pay attention to defensive stats. Range factor and what not are crap.

kittle42
03-11-2009, 04:55 PM
Yes.

bwahahahahahahahahahahaha!!!

Edit: Okay, I'll try to be done with this now...

voodoo, if you swear it off, I will as well. This is too much!

bradchifan3
03-11-2009, 04:59 PM
voodoo, if you swear it off, I will as well. This is too much!

BA's homers + rbis + runs saved in CF in 200 ABs vs. LHP and 400 ABs vs. RHP would be higher than Wise's homers + rbis in 200 ABs vs. LHP and 400 ABs vs. RHP.

Konerko05
03-11-2009, 05:05 PM
Looking a the stats, not many.

Oh you do know that Wise actually gets to more chances per game than BA does in CF, right? That's not only last year, but over the course of his career. Yes, BA has a lot more innings than Wise in CF and no, defensive stats are crappy, but at every OF position, Wise posts better numbers than BA purely on balls he gets to.

Do you honestly believe Wise is a better outfielder than Anderson?

It's Dankerific
03-11-2009, 05:24 PM
Do you honestly believe Wise is a better outfielder than Anderson?

Is this the spot for maniacal laughter?

If we're honestly trying to make that an issue, its no wonder people dont "get" the problem or solution.

kittle42
03-11-2009, 05:31 PM
Do you honestly believe Wise is a better outfielder than Anderson?

Is this the spot for maniacal laughter?

If we're honestly trying to make that an issue, its no wonder people dont "get" the problem or solution.

I believe what voodoo was saying is that Brian Anderson's defense doesn't make up for 17HRs out of the lineup, which is what the point of argument was with bradchifan3, who said it did, which is pretty ridiculous.

His use of whatever statistics was to show that Wise isn't exactly a turtle in a wheelchair out there, not that Wise was a better defender than Anderson. Voodoo himself has said in the past that Anderson is easily the best defensive OF on the team.

voodoochile
03-11-2009, 05:33 PM
Do you honestly believe Wise is a better outfielder than Anderson?

No, I just find the argument that he's as bad as Mack to be laughable, so I presented some arguments to show you can look at it the other way. Wise is okay in CF. Not great, but okay. He might even get better given enough PT.

I think a platoon between the two of them would be a great idea given the current makeup of the team. That's all. If Wise falters, there's plenty of time to give the job to BA full time or make a trade for a CF who can both field AND hit.

I find the argument that BA can make up 17 HR with his glove to be completely ridiculous. Maybe compared to Mack, but not to a guy like Wise.

FedEx227
03-11-2009, 05:37 PM
That's definitely a bit much. I'm fine with a platoon of those two, but I will absolutely not accept Jerry Owens as my everyday CF.

bradchifan3
03-11-2009, 05:42 PM
No, I just find the argument that he's as bad as Mack to be laughable, so I presented some arguments to show you can look at it the other way. Wise is okay in CF. Not great, but okay. He might even get better given enough PT.

I think a platoon between the two of them would be a great idea given the current makeup of the team. That's all. If Wise falters, there's plenty of time to give the job to BA full time or make a trade for a CF who can both field AND hit.

I find the argument that BA can make up 17 HR with his glove to be completely ridiculous. Maybe compared to Mack, but not to a guy like Wise.


Let me straighten this out. BA would make up for those 17 homers with his glove AND another 400 at-bats vs. RHPs.

It's Dankerific
03-11-2009, 05:43 PM
I believe what voodoo was saying is that Brian Anderson's defense doesn't make up for 17HRs out of the lineup, which is what the point of argument was with bradchifan3, who said it did, which is pretty ridiculous.

His use of whatever statistics was to show that Wise isn't exactly a turtle in a wheelchair out there, not that Wise was a better defender than Anderson. Voodoo himself has said in the past that Anderson is easily the best defensive OF on the team.

I don't agree that BA would have to make up 17 HRs. I think its laughable to think that BA would hit ZERO HRs against RHP in a full season. I also think that if Wise was that good, he would have stuck somewhere else first. BA has been stuck with the same management his whole career.

I also think that there is a ton of defensive actions that don't show up on the stats. cutting off balls, keeping singles singles, doubles doubles. keeping players from moving up a base on a fly ball, including keeping them from scoring on a sac fly attempt. Allowing the other OF to better position themselves because the CF is going to get to more stuff, etc. etc.

Konerko05
03-11-2009, 05:44 PM
Why is everyone talking about 17 homeruns?

voodoochile
03-11-2009, 05:47 PM
Why is everyone talking about 17 homeruns?

It's the theoretical difference between BA full time in CF and a platoon of BA and Wise in CF if everything stays the same as last year's stats.

bradchifan3
03-11-2009, 05:48 PM
It's the theoretical difference between BA full time in CF and a platoon of BA and Wise in CF if everything stays the same as last year's stats.

Which is ridiculous because BA wouldn't go homerless in 400 ABs vs. RHPs.

And the number is actually 20 now that I look a few pages back.

Konerko05
03-11-2009, 05:49 PM
It's the theoretical difference between BA full time in CF and a platoon of BA and Wise in CF if everything stays the same as last year's stats.

So it's a totally meaningless number.

MUsoxfan
03-11-2009, 05:50 PM
This argument has gone probably 1500 posts over several threads in the last 2 weeks. It's an no-win argument for anyone at this point in time.

bradchifan3
03-11-2009, 05:54 PM
So it's a totally meaningless number.

Right

This argument has gone probably 1500 posts over several threads in the last 2 weeks. It's an no-win argument for anyone at this point in time.

But it gives me my much needed White Sox fix.

It's Dankerific
03-11-2009, 06:04 PM
Ps. Happy birthday brian!!!!

kittle42
03-11-2009, 06:06 PM
This argument has gone probably 1500 posts over several threads in the last 2 weeks. It's an no-win argument for anyone at this point in time.

Including the Sox!

Konerko05
03-11-2009, 06:09 PM
Ps. Happy birthday brian!!!!

:happybday

Happy birthday to you.
Happy birthday to you.
Happy birthday dear Brian.
Happy birthday to you!!!

Yay!!!

BleacherBandit
03-11-2009, 07:34 PM
Ps. Happy birthday brian!!!!

Another year older, another year on the bench.

JB98
03-11-2009, 08:37 PM
That's definitely a bit much. I'm fine with a platoon of those two, but I will absolutely not accept Jerry Owens as my everyday CF.

That's pretty much where I stand. Owens is doing nothing this spring, and he has never impressed me.

If the season started today, I'd go with a Wise/Anderson platoon. Give Owens his walking papers.

I'm pretty sure BA is going to be on the roster and starting in CF against LHP. The question is, Wise or Owens vs. RHP? Right now, I think Wise is an obvious answer.

We won't have an everyday CF. It will be a platoon. And I hope our CF bats DOWN in the lineup, nowhere near the leadoff spot.

CWSpalehoseCWS
03-11-2009, 10:42 PM
Another year older, another year on the bench.

Another year closer to retirement. Then we'll be having arguments on whether he should have a statue, lol.

kittle42
03-11-2009, 10:51 PM
Another year closer to retirement. Then we'll be having arguments on whether he should have a statue, lol.

Those will all be laid to rest when Kenny Williams says after the 2009 season: "Absolutely, if Brian Anderson played every day, he would have a statue on the CF concourse." It will then be in the sig line of at least two posters here. Word will catch on. Then, he shall be immortalized.

It's Dankerific
03-11-2009, 11:36 PM
Those will all be laid to rest when Kenny Williams says after the 2009 season: "Absolutely, if Brian Anderson played every day, he would have a statue on the CF concourse." It will then be in the sig line of at least two posters here. Word will catch on. Then, he shall be immortalized.

Ahh.. that logical fallacy. BRILLIANT!!

kittle42
03-12-2009, 12:22 AM
Ahh.. that logical fallacy. BRILLIANT!!

You are the one who started the goddamn "KW made a statement which must be true" because he's the GM bull****.

slavko
03-12-2009, 12:40 AM
If leading off weren't the issue here, who would we want playing CF? Does defense in CF matter to management? From the list of people who have played the position for us, I would conclude no. We've had some miserable fielders out there recently, on a consistent basis. The reason this thread can't come to a sane conclusion is that there's no sane conclusion to be reached with the available talent. My guess? Someone other than a CF is going to have to lead off. Or one of the infielders is going to have to learn OF play real fast.

That's my choice, then:move an IF with a little speed and a decent OBP to CF and let him lead off. As long as CF defense doesn't matter to management. How bad could he be? Better than the "big" three, anyway.

kittle42
03-12-2009, 12:44 AM
If leading off weren't the issue here, who would we want playing CF? Does defense in CF matter to management? From the list of people who have played the position for us, I would conclude no. We've had some miserable fielders out there recently, on a consistent basis. The reason this thread can't come to a sane conclusion is that there's no sane conclusion to be reached with the available talent. My guess? Someone other than a CF is going to have to lead off. Or one of the infielders is going to have to learn OF play real fast.

That's my choice, then:move an IF with a little speed and a decent OBP to CF and let him lead off. As long as CF defense doesn't matter to management. How bad could he be? Better than the "big" three, anyway.

Hear ****ing hear.

Nellie_Fox
03-12-2009, 01:24 AM
Ps. Happy birthday brian!!!!

:happybday

Happy birthday to you.
Happy birthday to you.
Happy birthday dear Brian.
Happy birthday to you!!!

Yay!!!

http://www.mike-myers.net/dieter5.jpg

"I'm as giddy as a schoolgirl!"

It's Dankerific
03-12-2009, 01:39 AM
You are the one who started the goddamn "KW made a statement which must be true" because he's the GM bull****.

I assure you, that was going around long before I ever posted a KW QUOTE in my .sig

Konerko05
03-12-2009, 02:35 AM
http://www.mike-myers.net/dieter5.jpg



That's exactly what I was doing as I sang "Happy Birthday" to my Brian Anderson doll carved out of a head of lettuce and Ramen noodles.

Nellie_Fox
03-12-2009, 03:19 AM
That's exactly what I was doing as I sang "Happy Birthday" to my Brian Anderson doll carved out of a head of lettuce and Ramen noodles.:rolling:

spawn
03-12-2009, 08:44 AM
This argument has gone probably 1500 posts over several threads in the last 2 weeks. It's an no-win argument for anyone at this point in time.

Reading these CF posts reminds me of this:

http://kecute.files.wordpress.com/2008/01/hamster-wheel-race.jpg

russ99
03-12-2009, 12:00 PM
Interesting article on Kenny in today's Sun Times:

http://www.suntimes.com/sports/baseball/whitesox/1472770,CST-SPT-sox12.article

I find it very telling that he mentions Owens and Wise as our possibilities for leadoff, but no mention of Getz (and BA)...

Does that mean Ozzie and Kenny hate him?

oeo
03-12-2009, 12:05 PM
Interesting article on Kenny in today's Sun Times:

http://www.suntimes.com/sports/baseball/whitesox/1472770,CST-SPT-sox12.article

I find it very telling that he mentions Owens and Wise as our possibilities for leadoff, but no mention of Getz (and BA)...

Does that mean Ozzie and Kenny hate him?

I don't think they want to throw Getz into the role, but I don't think they're going to have a choice.

As for BA leading off...uh, no.