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GASHWOUND
05-26-2002, 04:21 PM
Either Sandy is injured or he's just getting old but those throws to 2nd were atrocious, especially that pitch out one where he wasn't even close...Neither of our catchers are that good at throwing the ball down to 2nd. If they are gonna be Clayton-like at the plate, at least be great with the glove and have a strong arm. Do we have any catching prospects down in the minors with cannons? Sheesh, kinda makes you miss CJ.

duke of dorwood
05-26-2002, 04:41 PM
Miguel Olivo is the only one I know of

LongDistanceFan
05-26-2002, 06:15 PM
Originally posted by duke of dorwood
Miguel Olivo is the only one I know of great arm and a corked bat........... nice combo

Garrison
05-27-2002, 12:36 AM
:versatile
"Did somebody call for a big-leagues catcher?"

LMAO :D:

Nellie_Fox
05-27-2002, 01:13 AM
That was a sad display. Overthrow, bounce it in the dirt, then on a pitchout sail it wide. 0 for 3 on throws to second, and none of the throws were even close to being good. Catcher, short, second and center field are, first and foremost, defensive positions.

Paulwny
05-27-2002, 03:53 PM
Originally posted by Nellie_Fox
That was a sad display. Overthrow, bounce it in the dirt, then on a pitchout sail it wide. 0 for 3 on throws to second, and none of the throws were even close to being good. Catcher, short, second and center field are, first and foremost, defensive positions.

Only guys like us, and a few others on the board, who grew up watching ball in the mid to late 50's and the 60's believe that.

LongDistanceFan
05-27-2002, 05:21 PM
Originally posted by Paulwny


Only guys like us, and a few others on the board, who grew up watching ball in the mid to late 50's and the 60's believe that. but isn't that the trend of the decade........ catchers who can hit a ton but is a liability on defense?

raul12
05-27-2002, 06:07 PM
Originally posted by GASHWOUND
Either Sandy is injured or he's just getting old but those throws to 2nd were atrocious, especially that pitch out one where he wasn't even close...Neither of our catchers are that good at throwing the ball down to 2nd. If they are gonna be Clayton-like at the plate, at least be great with the glove and have a strong arm. Do we have any catching prospects down in the minors with cannons? Sheesh, kinda makes you miss CJ.

could it be the 20-odd surgeries he's had on his knees? the guy is just f'n old. but we're in first place, so i won't complain.

PaleHoseGeorge
05-27-2002, 06:47 PM
Originally posted by Nellie_Fox
That was a sad display. Overthrow, bounce it in the dirt, then on a pitchout sail it wide. 0 for 3 on throws to second, and none of the throws were even close to being good. Catcher, short, second and center field are, first and foremost, defensive positions.


I'll grant you catcher. Defense is paramount for catchers. And until ten years ago when skinny guys began getting muscle-bound and hitting 60+ homeruns, I would grant you defense was more important than offense at shortstop, too. Nobody can afford automatic outs there anymore--especially if their catcher can't hit either.

However, I'm old enough to remember Joe Morgan playing second base in Houston, and guys like Willie Mays and Mickey Mantle playing centerfield.

Sure, 2B and CF ballplayers don't HAVE to be great offensively. However, teams in the the 50's and 60's who fielded all-glove/no-stick players there simply didn't win as many games.

Bob Gibson doesn't pitch anymore, and nobody cares if you hit 30 homeruns anymore, either. It's time for the Sox to learn how to win a championship in the 21st century. Lord knows we were pretty clueless in the 20th one.

Time is running out for guys like you and me.

:gulp:

LongDistanceFan
05-27-2002, 06:55 PM
Originally posted by PaleHoseGeorge



I'll grant you catcher. Defense is paramount for catchers. And until ten years ago when skinny guys began getting muscle-bound and hitting 60+ homeruns, I would grant you defense was more important than offense at shortstop, too. Nobody can afford automatic outs there anymore--especially if their catcher can't hit either.

However, I'm old enough to remember Joe Morgan playing second base in Houston, and guys like Willie Mays and Mickey Mantle playing centerfield.

Sure, 2B and CF ballplayers don't HAVE to be great offensively. However, teams in the the 50's and 60's who fielded all-glove/no-stick players there simply didn't win as many games.

Bob Gibson doesn't pitch anymore, and nobody cares if you hit 30 homeruns anymore, either. It's time for the Sox to learn how to win a championship in the 21st century. Lord knows we were pretty clueless in the 20th one.

Time is running out for guys like you and me.

:gulp: that was a good post....... made me reflect on the change of the game..........

but maybe a general.......... who can call a game and throw a baserunner out is still what i would love to see..........

Paulwny
05-27-2002, 06:55 PM
Originally posted by LongDistanceFan
but isn't that the trend of the decade........ catchers who can hit a ton but is a liability on defense?

Very true, Posada is a perfect example but, is the liability behind the plate worth it?
It's definately a different era of players.

Nellie_Fox
05-28-2002, 02:40 AM
Originally posted by LongDistanceFan
but isn't that the trend of the decade........ catchers who can hit a ton but is a liability on defense? I think that everyone started looking for another Johnny Bench, but forgot that Bench was a hell of a defensive catcher.


Originally posted by PaleHoseGeorge
I'll grant you catcher. Defense is paramount for catchers. And until ten years ago when skinny guys began getting muscle-bound and hitting 60+ homeruns, I would grant you defense was more important than offense at shortstop, too. Nobody can afford automatic outs there anymore--especially if their catcher can't hit either.

However, I'm old enough to remember Joe Morgan playing second base in Houston, and guys like Willie Mays and Mickey Mantle playing centerfield.

Sure, 2B and CF ballplayers don't HAVE to be great offensively. However, teams in the the 50's and 60's who fielded all-glove/no-stick players there simply didn't win as many games.

Bob Gibson doesn't pitch anymore, and nobody cares if you hit 30 homeruns anymore, either. It's time for the Sox to learn how to win a championship in the 21st century. Lord knows we were pretty clueless in the 20th one.

Time is running out for guys like you and me.

:gulp: Mantle and Mays were great defensive ballplayers who happened to bring the added benefit of great offense. If they weren't great defensively, they would have found a place for them, probably in left field, where you normally hide those types.

Landis was certainly no offensive threat (lifetime .247 average) but I sure liked seeing him patrol the expansive center field at old Comiskey. My guy Nellie (who was Morgan's hero, by the way) was the quintessential #2 hitter, always putting the ball in play, but he didn't scare anyone offensively. However, the Sox teams with those guys were awfully good.

Few teams are able to do what the Yankees do, which is stockpile players who are great both ways. For the rest of the teams, I still think you are better off choosing defense first up the middle.